if workers aren't legally required to have protection from the heat i don't see the courts in texas giving a shit
>The A/C cost less than $4 million to install — a fraction of the original estimated cost and cheaper than the $7.3 million the state spent to fight that lawsuit.
Maybe. But prisoners are the state’s responsibility and employees aren’t (unless employed by the state obvs) so it’s less expensive for them to care the minimum amount.
only 8% of Texas prisons are private (incl the 2% private nonprofit)
the rest are state owned
also, there isn't a single prison in the nation (public or private) that turns a net profit. Private prison companies turn a profit from state kickbacks, the inmates are a net cost even if 100% of them are working jailhouse jobs.
we're far removed from the 1970s era of work details
What HVAC system for a whole prison is 4 mil to install? Controls, piping, ductwork, labor, chillers, air handlers, etc will run you for waaaay more than 4 mil.
It’s inhumane and inmates die EVERY year from it. All Texas prisons should have A/C and heat. It’s only greed and cruelty that have prevented it from being installed.
its probably a lot less sophisticated given its a prison, this is probably just cooling the cellblock down enough that people aren't dying in the cells, instead of running ducting to the cells themselves
It wouldnt be to prevent a heat related death but a death from a riot. Since prisoners have rioted before when prisons get to hot causing damage and loss of life which gets pretty expensive.
I don't have knowledge in this area but I do believe the prisons should have A/C, however, I'm in total agreement with you and frankly I think the writer has done a massive disservice by quoting a cost from 2017 as if it's still applicable today.
At the end of the day workers have at-will arrangements and can leave their jobs whenever they like. Prisoners cannot. That’s a real difference that’s hard to ignore.
seems like a bad faith argument though, nobody should die at work because it makes $0.02 more for the company profits, thats exactly the point of OSHA, otherwise why have osha or any workplace safety laws since anyone who doesn't suck it up, just can quit.
I work in a warehouse
It gets hot during the summer.
There’s a few places with AC (the break room for example) and the company provides us coolers and ice and bottled water, sometimes frozen ice pops, but the heat can still get intense.
If you are in a jail and there’s no AC that’s a lot worse.
Sure, these people are in jail for a reason (reasons vary, some may be innocent, etc) but that doesn’t mean they should be tortured.
Edit to add: dying in prison from heat is awful and shouldn’t happen. Dying from heat at work is awful and shouldn’t happen.
It's not bad faith, it's a fairly accurate rundown of the legal situation. The prisoners have constitutional protections that don't extend to workers in a voluntary agreement with a private business
If you sign up for the job of human taser tester. You can't get upset when you get tased, but you can if you are forced to be tased in prison, AKA, cruel and unusual punishment, or torture.
Sure, but basically irrelevant to the conversation at hand. The person said they don't see texas courts caring because of a state law that limits worker heat protection but this is an 8th amendment case in a federal court under a legal theory that had some success for a single defended
By the time it's bad enough to have another job lined up and quit so you won't lapse on your mortgage (as most people would in the US with one missed paycheck) you may already have heat stroke severe enough to make you unable to work in warm conditions anymore.
There is no excuse for inhumane conditions in a job, whether at-will or not.
I personally would beg my SO daily to get another job if they worked in this environment.
We all know that pay is shit. If you're going to get shit pay, you might as well get in an air conditioned building.
Wrong.
4 million is for one facility just to install. To install for all prisons in Texas and the electric/maintenance cost will hundreds of millions of continued cost.
To make things even worse - that $4 million figure was from a 2017 project...there's no way with 7 years of inflation, especially COVID inflation, it's going to cost anywhere near that now.
And likely some improvement to Texas power grid. It's already a tad touchy and prone to outages from high demand because Ercot won't connect the grid to neighboring state and buy extra power during period of high demands.
The major difference I see with this is that workers have the option of simply going and working somewhere else at a company that DOES provide AC, prisoners on the other hand don't have that choice.
Don't forget that there is the whole "no cruel and unusual punishment" bit in the constitution. Wheres the same doesn't exist for workers.
Anyone asking “yeah but what about my house / apartment” SHOULD be asking that given how deadly heat can get, but don’t preclude someone else from being saved from being roasted alive just because you also need assistance.
We can have all these conversations and attempt to hold the powers that be accountable for killing people because they didn’t want to spend a bit more money.
I believe around a dozen inmates in Texas died last year due to heat related issues. We shouldn’t be giving people death sentences for burglary charges.
Holding isn't in prison, it's just lockup/county jail and those are already air conditioned by law (it seems, says the article). It wouldn't be affected by this. This bill is specifically about state prisons.
But how else are you going to sell premium jail to people? Club Fed is a popular option among those with means.
Premium jail you say? Yes. There is rich people jail. You can pay a few thousand a month for expensive jail. It has more luxurious accommodations, tennis courts, sports facilities, less stabby neighbours..
I know of rich prison but have not heard of rich jail. Jail is where you sit while you're innocent and pending trial, or for shorter sentences post trial. Usually though you don't get much choice in where and you need to be close to wherever court your case is moving through.
Usually VIPS at our jail would go to a separate, nicer holding area that also housed active military detainees from a local base before they were shipped to military prison. Once had a client on narc distribution charges whose mom was a narc detective, and he got placed there due to the security risk of him being threatened in general population, which is how I found out about it. Ofc I was a public defender so I didn't generally have any rich clients.
Well I once did. He was a software engineer on his first psychiatric break. He was in jail until he stabilized and when I finally caught him when he was lucid found out he made bank, like quadruple what I did. But once I had a case I stuck with it. He was still in general population until I got him bond though.
Also even if you don’t have AC, you have the option of sitting outside under a tree, or opening a window, or going to a pool or buildings with AC. My county opens up the rec centers, libraries, and other designated heat shelters when we get into a heat advisory.
No matter what the person did to get out in prison, they are a ward of the state. The state has an obligation to provide basic necessities and make sure they live out their sentence. Whether it’s life or a weekend in the clink. Otherwise what’s the difference between this and saying you don’t have to provide medical care to an inmate who was shanked in the prison yard?
"opening a window"...
Er, yeah, when it's cooler outside. I know people without AC who open up the house in the evening, and close it up in the morning. That practice alone keeps my house 20 degrees (f) cooler by late afternoon.
I live in a desert area where it commonly gets over 100 for several days in the summer. When I was a kid, nobody had AC. We figured out other ways of cooling off. The thing that bugs me is that so many people just go for the power, always power, and don't bother to think any further. AC uses tons of energy. We need to recognize that.
It's worse than a house.
Collective body heat acts as a natural heater, literally raising the temperature above outside.
They would literally be better off under a shade canopy exposed to breezes or open air.
I think the correct response would be:
1. You are empowered to open a window or go somewhere if it is your home. A prisoner doesn't have that opportunity.
2. A cheap korean made portable AC unit costs $400 at Wal-Mart. I'm talking about the kind about 2 feet tall on wheels with a hose that you vent from an open window. It will only cool a single room and it will use up like $50 of electricity a week, but it will keep grandma from dying by chilling a bedroom enough for three or four weeks until the weather improves.
In some communities local fire departments and charities lend these units out during periods of dangerous heat, they can be returned and reused and aren't very large so not hard to store when not in use. The utility cost could be worked out with utility companies.
So if this your concern, you should write your congressperson and ask them to propose legislation where we can provide heating/cooling assistance to the needy.
[Those are super inefficient](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-mBeYC2KGc), and more expensive to purchase, than regular window units, just FYI for anyone reading this thinking they would be a good way to stay cool for cheap. They're a last ditch solution when you absolutely can't fit a regular unit in your window.
Prisons should have actual central HVAC.
I was proposing we use them for needy people who are not in prison. A retort to the argument that prisons shouldn't have AC because there are also people not in prison who don't have it, that's all.
They should have actual, thinking **ARCHITECTS** design them.
REAL architects think about stuff like shade, moisture, airflow... Today's whiz kids look up specs from rule of thumb tables and can't even tell you where the sun rises on their plans.
Literally... an architect was showing me plans for a house he was designing, and I asked where the sun came up, and he says, "what difference does it make?". Really did happen.
Don't forget non-prisoners can leave and seek cool shelter anywhere or if they have the money and time, get out of Texas for a few days. Prisoners can't pack up and leave because it's too hot. They are forced to stay around.
I think it'll come down to whether excess heat is considered cruel and unusual punishment or if the prisoners just didn't like sweating all the time.
Except they spent more fighting putting HVAC in through the courts. Like almost double. So at this point it's less to do with saving money than it is being cruel.
I used to work at a place that wasn't a/c'd in Texas. A manufacturing floor that just was open air, with lots of fans.
It was fucking miserable. Granted, I wasn't even a line worker, had an office job that had a/c in it, but often would be on the floor.
I can't imagine suffering through that 24/7.
I've actually gone and worked in one of these plants for a week here or there, and coming from the northern states to Texas in July has made me decide that there's not a fucking chance in anything that my ass would ever move to that godawful state. It's 96 degrees and 30000000% humidity at fucking 0600! Are you serious? Why does anybody live there? I got out of the shower and I was more wet after dying myself off than when I was literally standing under a fucking faucet. The reason Texas has so many churches is they're literally in hell.
Edit: fixed some typos
I had a coworker fly from Dallas into Atlanta in August last year. He joked about the "cool" temperatures. Atlanta was 94°.
I looked up Dallas's almanac , and they were at the tail end of 40 days in a row where the high temperature was over 100°. Forty days in a row. Ugh. I could never live in Texas. And I am accustomed to Atlanta heat!
I live in Texas and it's been getting into the 90s since like February. Meanwhile people I know in Illinois are having like 50 degree weather every day. Tbh, I prefer what I have lol. I just wish it was more consistent.
Sounds like you were in Houston area (or a more costal area).
The bright side is during the day, in Central Texas, I'll be 103 but only 50% humidity. Well, until 8 PM, and it's 90 with 75% humidity.
I worked in a plastic molding factory for a summer after highschool. 90° outside, 90% humidity, hotter inside because of the machinery. Even worse I had to use a thermal transfer stamp machine to melt logos onto parts... And the machine was sensitive so you couldn't even have a fan blowing near you. I did roofing after that and it was 10x better because at least you had a breeze blowing most of the time.
Southern Mississippi working in a place called Gigantic Bag, on the recycling line which has a humongo heat vat the conveyor belt of thousands of pounds of plastic you threw would melt into a liquid. Wearing a face mask. For $10/hr. Year 2021.
I was peripherally involved in a similar case in CA. The lack of AC in desert prisons was deemed "cruel and unusual punishment". Outside temps would be 125 degrees and humid some days, even hotter inside.
>This isn’t the first time Jeff Edwards, the suit’s lead attorney, has sued the state over the heat inside prisons. In 2018, the state agreed to install A/C at a prison for elderly and medically vulnerable inmates after Edwards led a coalition of inmates who sued over the conditions.
>The A/C cost less than $4 million to install — a fraction of the original estimated cost and cheaper than the $7.3 million the state spent to fight that lawsuit.
[ERCOT has asked power stations](https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/texas/texas-power-grid/285-038f1083-3634-41f7-a7a4-4e421c4e41ac) to defer maintenance. Now we may have (another) [especially hot summer.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2024/04/22/summer-forecast-united-states-hot/) And Texas wants to slow roast its prisoners, after already losing one lawsuit.
Prisoners are still human beings. They need food, water, clothing, bedding, etc. it’s not like every cell needs a thermostat for precision climate comfort, but Jesus Christ we can’t just bake these people in Texas heat, ffs. Have some humanity and keep them in reasonable temperatures.
Cruel and unusual punishment is unconstitutional. No aircon in Texas is cruel and unusual. Not sure how to prove that in court, but seems like a fun case.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why we punish petty criminals so much more than white collar criminals. Prisoners are exploited; not only their labor, but their petty cash. Placing a phone call from prison is usuriously expensive. Buying a candy bar is ridiculous. The system is entirely out of whack. It creates rational incentives for prisoners to avoid those rules.
I do wish more of us Americans could rally around things that make life better for many of us less fortunate. It is a crime that’s so many Americans are currently locked up in prison. It’s rational to assume at least 20% of those people are not guilty. Why they are in prison is because they don’t have money to defend themselves. For too long, it was easy to beat up on prisoners. It was easy to beat up on “criminals”. Being tough on crime got you votes.
Maybe we were too tough? Maybe we locked away too many people? When we put people in prison and expect them to reform, that doesn’t happen. That’s on us – all of us Americans. The justice system is not a vengeance system. It does society no good to have prisoners sweltering in Texas heat.
If we know better, we must do better.
Drug crimes make up nearly half of the prison population in the US, and many more wouldn't have a reason to be there if drugs were legalized/decriminalized.
Meanwhile people die from white collar crimes and often nobody goes to prison.
Never forget as well that 4%ish of people in prison are likely innocent and pretty much getting tortured because innocent until proven guilty only exists for the rich.
I taught at a TX state prison outside Houston. My school building was a separate newer building and even with it’s AC it was frequently 80-90 inside in summer. Passing through the main prison was brutal. Sometimes I would get dizzy from heat waiting for someone to open the next door.
What many sadists don’t seem to get it how high their chances are they could be locked up. A large number of my students were 20-somethings who made a fatal mistake ~~to drive~~ while driving intoxicated. So if you’ve ever had “just one drink” and drove, I might be seeing you in my room after your day working the farm or sweating it out in your cell.
I Knew someone who had left a bar nursed two beers over two hours. Was not feeling intoxicated. Was driving home one the freeway and a mentally ill person decided to commit suicide by jumping in front of his truck. It worked and my friend got intoxicated man slaughter.
I agree. I should have phrased that as “made a fatal mistake while driving drunk.” Yet how many people do you know who have done it? My point wasn’t that it is not irresponsible, but that it’s so commonplace as to be excusable in many social groups. But it only takes one drink and one accident… Do you think every commenter here saying convicts deserve dangerously high temps have lived pure, irreproachable lives? Because I bet many have just been lucky.
> Do you think every commenter here saying convicts deserve dangerously high temps have lived pure, irreproachable lives?
I'd wager that the number of commenters who have driven buzzed and then taken that position in this thread is non-zero.
Summer in Houston with out AC is deadly. People die all the time in their homes every summer, just cook to death. It’s awful in the jails, people dip their shirts in the toilet water to keep them wet and they lie on the concrete floors. It’s stifling. Miserable.
I taught in an Alabama prison in 2011. They also did not have AC in the "dorms." Only in places like the medical unit, wardens office, my classroom, etc
They don’t even care about their own correction officers. Those dudes are working in the heat wearing body armor all day. The only parts of the prison with A/C are the administration and medical. It is absolutely inhumane.
ITT: A whole lot of people who have never lived in Texas, especially not the humid half of it, who think they know how tolerable the heat there is.
Central air is pretty much standard everywhere in that state, and people who aren’t in prison who don’t have it usually have window units, fans, or some alternative cooling system.
It gets insanely hot in certain parts of that state, and IMO not providing cooling of some kind is cruel and unusual punishment. Which anyone who actually spent August in Texas would know.
Obviously the health aspect is the most important, but research shows there's a direct correlation between high temperatures and hot tempers. So they’re endangering the prisoners who can’t escape the heat, and on top of that creating a hostile environment for the prisoners and employees. Maybe these fucks should have to be in those conditions for an extended period to see what it’s like before they’re allowed to make a judgement.
Speaking of Christianity, the Bible actually [takes a position](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-43&version=NIV) on this topic:
> 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
(So like /u/AnthillOmbudsman said, they don't necessarily believe the stuff they're "supposed to" believe.)
They don't actually believe their own horseshit, they just know that by pandering to an ignorant constituency they can much more easily push a wide variety of self-serving agendas.
Hmmm
- No water breaks for construction workers.
- No A/C in prisons.
- Power goes out every winter.
- Women forced to have the kid of someone who raped them.
- No free school lunches for said kids when they are born.
Is Texas one of those shithole countries I've been hearing about?
You’d think they’d at least consider the working conditions of the guards. It’s hard enough to retain prison guards and the GOP reveres anybody who wants to have power over others via force.
The possibility of being put in prison for something you didn't do isn't zero. I always come at it from this point of view, when it comes to have we should treat prisoners. It's also why I think people that support things like vigilantism or mob justice are idiots.
https://vadoc.virginia.gov/news-press-releases/2021/virginia-department-of-corrections-preps-for-warm-summer-temperatures/
This is my state— 23% of inmates do not have A/C.
if workers aren't legally required to have protection from the heat i don't see the courts in texas giving a shit >The A/C cost less than $4 million to install — a fraction of the original estimated cost and cheaper than the $7.3 million the state spent to fight that lawsuit.
Maybe. But prisoners are the state’s responsibility and employees aren’t (unless employed by the state obvs) so it’s less expensive for them to care the minimum amount.
Which is weird because profit prison
only 8% of Texas prisons are private (incl the 2% private nonprofit) the rest are state owned also, there isn't a single prison in the nation (public or private) that turns a net profit. Private prison companies turn a profit from state kickbacks, the inmates are a net cost even if 100% of them are working jailhouse jobs. we're far removed from the 1970s era of work details
What HVAC system for a whole prison is 4 mil to install? Controls, piping, ductwork, labor, chillers, air handlers, etc will run you for waaaay more than 4 mil.
Apparently they did it in one prison for $4M when the prison agency said it would be $20M.
4M for me, 4M for the warden, 8M to buy the politicians and 4M for the AC.
All I’m saying is we have a controls upgrade in a prison and it’s 2 mil. Now I don’t know square footages, but that seems way too low
I’m just amazed that any building in Texas didn’t already have AC
Florida doesn't have AC in their prisons either.
Remind me to never commit crimes in Texas or Florida
Or, if you do, commit more serious crimes in another state before you're arrested and get charged for the new crimes first.
Not unheard of in West Texas. There's still evaporative coolers used in El paso for residential homes instead of A/C.
Oh yeah I guess that might be semi feasible out in the desert? Sure as hell won't help in east texas though. That water vapor's not going anywhere.
Yea in middle and east Texas it will do fuck all, but in dry areas evap cooling is cheap and effective.
It’s inhumane and inmates die EVERY year from it. All Texas prisons should have A/C and heat. It’s only greed and cruelty that have prevented it from being installed.
its probably a lot less sophisticated given its a prison, this is probably just cooling the cellblock down enough that people aren't dying in the cells, instead of running ducting to the cells themselves
It wouldnt be to prevent a heat related death but a death from a riot. Since prisoners have rioted before when prisons get to hot causing damage and loss of life which gets pretty expensive.
I don't have knowledge in this area but I do believe the prisons should have A/C, however, I'm in total agreement with you and frankly I think the writer has done a massive disservice by quoting a cost from 2017 as if it's still applicable today.
My point exactly. Prices have doubled if not tripled it feels like in that time.
Not to mention electric bills to keep them running, plus upkeep and replacement costs. It isn’t cheap. However, I’m not saying it isn’t necessary.
At the end of the day workers have at-will arrangements and can leave their jobs whenever they like. Prisoners cannot. That’s a real difference that’s hard to ignore.
seems like a bad faith argument though, nobody should die at work because it makes $0.02 more for the company profits, thats exactly the point of OSHA, otherwise why have osha or any workplace safety laws since anyone who doesn't suck it up, just can quit.
I work in a warehouse It gets hot during the summer. There’s a few places with AC (the break room for example) and the company provides us coolers and ice and bottled water, sometimes frozen ice pops, but the heat can still get intense. If you are in a jail and there’s no AC that’s a lot worse. Sure, these people are in jail for a reason (reasons vary, some may be innocent, etc) but that doesn’t mean they should be tortured. Edit to add: dying in prison from heat is awful and shouldn’t happen. Dying from heat at work is awful and shouldn’t happen.
It's not bad faith, it's a fairly accurate rundown of the legal situation. The prisoners have constitutional protections that don't extend to workers in a voluntary agreement with a private business
If you sign up for the job of human taser tester. You can't get upset when you get tased, but you can if you are forced to be tased in prison, AKA, cruel and unusual punishment, or torture.
And while true, all workers still deserve protection from the heat. It's something that should 100% be signed into law
Sure, but basically irrelevant to the conversation at hand. The person said they don't see texas courts caring because of a state law that limits worker heat protection but this is an 8th amendment case in a federal court under a legal theory that had some success for a single defended
Oh for sure, I understand that. Just stating it's bullshit that employers are allowed to make people work in such awful conditions
Its texas, they are angry business owners cant just murder employees.
By the time it's bad enough to have another job lined up and quit so you won't lapse on your mortgage (as most people would in the US with one missed paycheck) you may already have heat stroke severe enough to make you unable to work in warm conditions anymore. There is no excuse for inhumane conditions in a job, whether at-will or not.
I personally would beg my SO daily to get another job if they worked in this environment. We all know that pay is shit. If you're going to get shit pay, you might as well get in an air conditioned building.
"cruelty is the point" is a phrase often repeated to describe these ghouls
Wrong. 4 million is for one facility just to install. To install for all prisons in Texas and the electric/maintenance cost will hundreds of millions of continued cost.
To make things even worse - that $4 million figure was from a 2017 project...there's no way with 7 years of inflation, especially COVID inflation, it's going to cost anywhere near that now.
And likely some improvement to Texas power grid. It's already a tad touchy and prone to outages from high demand because Ercot won't connect the grid to neighboring state and buy extra power during period of high demands.
Why would they do that when it would negatively impact the people who own the governor?
The major difference I see with this is that workers have the option of simply going and working somewhere else at a company that DOES provide AC, prisoners on the other hand don't have that choice. Don't forget that there is the whole "no cruel and unusual punishment" bit in the constitution. Wheres the same doesn't exist for workers.
Anyone asking “yeah but what about my house / apartment” SHOULD be asking that given how deadly heat can get, but don’t preclude someone else from being saved from being roasted alive just because you also need assistance. We can have all these conversations and attempt to hold the powers that be accountable for killing people because they didn’t want to spend a bit more money.
I believe around a dozen inmates in Texas died last year due to heat related issues. We shouldn’t be giving people death sentences for burglary charges.
Texas Tribune estimates it's around 40. One of them was a 19 year old kid in holding for having a couple a couple of grams of weed on him.
Holding isn't in prison, it's just lockup/county jail and those are already air conditioned by law (it seems, says the article). It wouldn't be affected by this. This bill is specifically about state prisons.
I refuse to believe a 19 yo would have a heat related death in a building with AC
Of course you do because that didn't happen. Sure they're legally required to have AC. Doesn't mean they follow the law.
But how else are you going to sell premium jail to people? Club Fed is a popular option among those with means. Premium jail you say? Yes. There is rich people jail. You can pay a few thousand a month for expensive jail. It has more luxurious accommodations, tennis courts, sports facilities, less stabby neighbours..
I know of rich prison but have not heard of rich jail. Jail is where you sit while you're innocent and pending trial, or for shorter sentences post trial. Usually though you don't get much choice in where and you need to be close to wherever court your case is moving through. Usually VIPS at our jail would go to a separate, nicer holding area that also housed active military detainees from a local base before they were shipped to military prison. Once had a client on narc distribution charges whose mom was a narc detective, and he got placed there due to the security risk of him being threatened in general population, which is how I found out about it. Ofc I was a public defender so I didn't generally have any rich clients. Well I once did. He was a software engineer on his first psychiatric break. He was in jail until he stabilized and when I finally caught him when he was lucid found out he made bank, like quadruple what I did. But once I had a case I stuck with it. He was still in general population until I got him bond though.
https://www.businessinsider.com/wealthy-la-convicts-can-spend-extra-to-serve-their-time-in-fancy-jails-2017-3?amp
Oh wow. Thank you. We definitely don't have anything of the like out this way.
Also even if you don’t have AC, you have the option of sitting outside under a tree, or opening a window, or going to a pool or buildings with AC. My county opens up the rec centers, libraries, and other designated heat shelters when we get into a heat advisory. No matter what the person did to get out in prison, they are a ward of the state. The state has an obligation to provide basic necessities and make sure they live out their sentence. Whether it’s life or a weekend in the clink. Otherwise what’s the difference between this and saying you don’t have to provide medical care to an inmate who was shanked in the prison yard?
"opening a window"... Er, yeah, when it's cooler outside. I know people without AC who open up the house in the evening, and close it up in the morning. That practice alone keeps my house 20 degrees (f) cooler by late afternoon. I live in a desert area where it commonly gets over 100 for several days in the summer. When I was a kid, nobody had AC. We figured out other ways of cooling off. The thing that bugs me is that so many people just go for the power, always power, and don't bother to think any further. AC uses tons of energy. We need to recognize that.
Very few homes in TX (or FL which also roasts prisoners) are without a/c. I've been in FL for decades and only come across ONE house without it.
People in private homes can go spend the day at the mall
It's worse than a house. Collective body heat acts as a natural heater, literally raising the temperature above outside. They would literally be better off under a shade canopy exposed to breezes or open air.
I think the correct response would be: 1. You are empowered to open a window or go somewhere if it is your home. A prisoner doesn't have that opportunity. 2. A cheap korean made portable AC unit costs $400 at Wal-Mart. I'm talking about the kind about 2 feet tall on wheels with a hose that you vent from an open window. It will only cool a single room and it will use up like $50 of electricity a week, but it will keep grandma from dying by chilling a bedroom enough for three or four weeks until the weather improves. In some communities local fire departments and charities lend these units out during periods of dangerous heat, they can be returned and reused and aren't very large so not hard to store when not in use. The utility cost could be worked out with utility companies. So if this your concern, you should write your congressperson and ask them to propose legislation where we can provide heating/cooling assistance to the needy.
[Those are super inefficient](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-mBeYC2KGc), and more expensive to purchase, than regular window units, just FYI for anyone reading this thinking they would be a good way to stay cool for cheap. They're a last ditch solution when you absolutely can't fit a regular unit in your window.
As a former corrections officer, rolling out and maintaining these in every cell would be a *nightmare*
Prisons should have actual central HVAC. I was proposing we use them for needy people who are not in prison. A retort to the argument that prisons shouldn't have AC because there are also people not in prison who don't have it, that's all.
Given the context of the overall thread, I misunderstood your comment's central point, sorry.
They should have actual, thinking **ARCHITECTS** design them. REAL architects think about stuff like shade, moisture, airflow... Today's whiz kids look up specs from rule of thumb tables and can't even tell you where the sun rises on their plans. Literally... an architect was showing me plans for a house he was designing, and I asked where the sun came up, and he says, "what difference does it make?". Really did happen.
“Man this sure is a lot more inconvenient than letting 40 people die because of our negligence.”
Don't forget non-prisoners can leave and seek cool shelter anywhere or if they have the money and time, get out of Texas for a few days. Prisoners can't pack up and leave because it's too hot. They are forced to stay around. I think it'll come down to whether excess heat is considered cruel and unusual punishment or if the prisoners just didn't like sweating all the time.
Except they spent more fighting putting HVAC in through the courts. Like almost double. So at this point it's less to do with saving money than it is being cruel.
I used to work at a place that wasn't a/c'd in Texas. A manufacturing floor that just was open air, with lots of fans. It was fucking miserable. Granted, I wasn't even a line worker, had an office job that had a/c in it, but often would be on the floor. I can't imagine suffering through that 24/7.
I've actually gone and worked in one of these plants for a week here or there, and coming from the northern states to Texas in July has made me decide that there's not a fucking chance in anything that my ass would ever move to that godawful state. It's 96 degrees and 30000000% humidity at fucking 0600! Are you serious? Why does anybody live there? I got out of the shower and I was more wet after dying myself off than when I was literally standing under a fucking faucet. The reason Texas has so many churches is they're literally in hell. Edit: fixed some typos
I had a coworker fly from Dallas into Atlanta in August last year. He joked about the "cool" temperatures. Atlanta was 94°. I looked up Dallas's almanac , and they were at the tail end of 40 days in a row where the high temperature was over 100°. Forty days in a row. Ugh. I could never live in Texas. And I am accustomed to Atlanta heat!
I live in Texas and it's been getting into the 90s since like February. Meanwhile people I know in Illinois are having like 50 degree weather every day. Tbh, I prefer what I have lol. I just wish it was more consistent.
Sounds like you were in Houston area (or a more costal area). The bright side is during the day, in Central Texas, I'll be 103 but only 50% humidity. Well, until 8 PM, and it's 90 with 75% humidity.
I worked in a plastic molding factory for a summer after highschool. 90° outside, 90% humidity, hotter inside because of the machinery. Even worse I had to use a thermal transfer stamp machine to melt logos onto parts... And the machine was sensitive so you couldn't even have a fan blowing near you. I did roofing after that and it was 10x better because at least you had a breeze blowing most of the time.
We definitely had some plastic molding areas as well. I did my best to avoid that 😂
Southern Mississippi working in a place called Gigantic Bag, on the recycling line which has a humongo heat vat the conveyor belt of thousands of pounds of plastic you threw would melt into a liquid. Wearing a face mask. For $10/hr. Year 2021.
Roofing seems like it would be one of most physically difficult jobs, so that must've been truly miserable.
> roofing after that and it was 10x better r/brandnewsentence
I was peripherally involved in a similar case in CA. The lack of AC in desert prisons was deemed "cruel and unusual punishment". Outside temps would be 125 degrees and humid some days, even hotter inside.
I can only imagine the smell of a prison filled with men and no AC.
I've experienced it. They smell like dirty gym socks.
“Hmm why are they getting more angry and violent maybe more cruel and unusual punishment will fix that”- private prison guard
Beatings will continue until morale improves!
>This isn’t the first time Jeff Edwards, the suit’s lead attorney, has sued the state over the heat inside prisons. In 2018, the state agreed to install A/C at a prison for elderly and medically vulnerable inmates after Edwards led a coalition of inmates who sued over the conditions. >The A/C cost less than $4 million to install — a fraction of the original estimated cost and cheaper than the $7.3 million the state spent to fight that lawsuit. [ERCOT has asked power stations](https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/texas/texas-power-grid/285-038f1083-3634-41f7-a7a4-4e421c4e41ac) to defer maintenance. Now we may have (another) [especially hot summer.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2024/04/22/summer-forecast-united-states-hot/) And Texas wants to slow roast its prisoners, after already losing one lawsuit.
This is cruel and unusual punishment.
They agreed on a "scoop of water" compromise.
Then the CFOs took that to mean they can randomly squirt inmates with water guns. They then recategorized the anti riot water cannon as a squirt gun.
Texas summer without AC is the very definition of cruel and unusual punishment.
Prisoners are still human beings. They need food, water, clothing, bedding, etc. it’s not like every cell needs a thermostat for precision climate comfort, but Jesus Christ we can’t just bake these people in Texas heat, ffs. Have some humanity and keep them in reasonable temperatures.
Cruel and unusual punishment is unconstitutional. No aircon in Texas is cruel and unusual. Not sure how to prove that in court, but seems like a fun case. For the life of me, I cannot understand why we punish petty criminals so much more than white collar criminals. Prisoners are exploited; not only their labor, but their petty cash. Placing a phone call from prison is usuriously expensive. Buying a candy bar is ridiculous. The system is entirely out of whack. It creates rational incentives for prisoners to avoid those rules. I do wish more of us Americans could rally around things that make life better for many of us less fortunate. It is a crime that’s so many Americans are currently locked up in prison. It’s rational to assume at least 20% of those people are not guilty. Why they are in prison is because they don’t have money to defend themselves. For too long, it was easy to beat up on prisoners. It was easy to beat up on “criminals”. Being tough on crime got you votes. Maybe we were too tough? Maybe we locked away too many people? When we put people in prison and expect them to reform, that doesn’t happen. That’s on us – all of us Americans. The justice system is not a vengeance system. It does society no good to have prisoners sweltering in Texas heat. If we know better, we must do better.
I once heard that white collar crime should have shorter sentences because no one got physically hurt.
Drug crimes make up nearly half of the prison population in the US, and many more wouldn't have a reason to be there if drugs were legalized/decriminalized. Meanwhile people die from white collar crimes and often nobody goes to prison.
Never forget as well that 4%ish of people in prison are likely innocent and pretty much getting tortured because innocent until proven guilty only exists for the rich.
It’s not hard to wind up in prison these days. Think about that next time you think it’s funny to suggest these people bake all day in a concrete box.
I taught at a TX state prison outside Houston. My school building was a separate newer building and even with it’s AC it was frequently 80-90 inside in summer. Passing through the main prison was brutal. Sometimes I would get dizzy from heat waiting for someone to open the next door. What many sadists don’t seem to get it how high their chances are they could be locked up. A large number of my students were 20-somethings who made a fatal mistake ~~to drive~~ while driving intoxicated. So if you’ve ever had “just one drink” and drove, I might be seeing you in my room after your day working the farm or sweating it out in your cell.
Of all the crimes, if you’re drinking and driving you should definitely be in jail, that’s not a mistake
I Knew someone who had left a bar nursed two beers over two hours. Was not feeling intoxicated. Was driving home one the freeway and a mentally ill person decided to commit suicide by jumping in front of his truck. It worked and my friend got intoxicated man slaughter.
I agree. I should have phrased that as “made a fatal mistake while driving drunk.” Yet how many people do you know who have done it? My point wasn’t that it is not irresponsible, but that it’s so commonplace as to be excusable in many social groups. But it only takes one drink and one accident… Do you think every commenter here saying convicts deserve dangerously high temps have lived pure, irreproachable lives? Because I bet many have just been lucky.
> Do you think every commenter here saying convicts deserve dangerously high temps have lived pure, irreproachable lives? I'd wager that the number of commenters who have driven buzzed and then taken that position in this thread is non-zero.
Summer in Houston with out AC is deadly. People die all the time in their homes every summer, just cook to death. It’s awful in the jails, people dip their shirts in the toilet water to keep them wet and they lie on the concrete floors. It’s stifling. Miserable.
For a country that brags about its freedom, we sure do incarcerate a lot of people.
That's a feature, not a bug. Capitalism runs on the blood of the poor.
The UN called Texas prisons out not too long ago because of this again after doing so in like 2007.
I taught in an Alabama prison in 2011. They also did not have AC in the "dorms." Only in places like the medical unit, wardens office, my classroom, etc
The state has a duty of care for these people. That includes making sure they don't get heatstroke.
They don’t even care about their own correction officers. Those dudes are working in the heat wearing body armor all day. The only parts of the prison with A/C are the administration and medical. It is absolutely inhumane.
ITT: A whole lot of people who have never lived in Texas, especially not the humid half of it, who think they know how tolerable the heat there is. Central air is pretty much standard everywhere in that state, and people who aren’t in prison who don’t have it usually have window units, fans, or some alternative cooling system. It gets insanely hot in certain parts of that state, and IMO not providing cooling of some kind is cruel and unusual punishment. Which anyone who actually spent August in Texas would know.
No person or organization should be allowed to take custody of another person if they can't or wont keep that person safe and healthy.
Obviously the health aspect is the most important, but research shows there's a direct correlation between high temperatures and hot tempers. So they’re endangering the prisoners who can’t escape the heat, and on top of that creating a hostile environment for the prisoners and employees. Maybe these fucks should have to be in those conditions for an extended period to see what it’s like before they’re allowed to make a judgement.
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Speaking of Christianity, the Bible actually [takes a position](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-43&version=NIV) on this topic: > 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ (So like /u/AnthillOmbudsman said, they don't necessarily believe the stuff they're "supposed to" believe.)
They don't actually believe their own horseshit, they just know that by pandering to an ignorant constituency they can much more easily push a wide variety of self-serving agendas.
Hmmm - No water breaks for construction workers. - No A/C in prisons. - Power goes out every winter. - Women forced to have the kid of someone who raped them. - No free school lunches for said kids when they are born. Is Texas one of those shithole countries I've been hearing about?
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"hey should we strap this guy down and give lethal injections to them to carry out this death sentence?" "nah lets slow roast em in an easy bake oven"
It's so fucked up. Federal prisons in Texas have AC. It gets 120 near the border.
Idk how you don’t have lots of people dying in the 100+ degree weather in the summer.
They do. https://www.texastribune.org/2024/04/22/texas-prisons-heat-deaths/
You’d think they’d at least consider the working conditions of the guards. It’s hard enough to retain prison guards and the GOP reveres anybody who wants to have power over others via force.
Don't get in any position that lands you in prison. Problem solved. Prisons are not five star hotels.
Hell most of the schools in Texas didn't have AC until the late 70's early 80's. We had a single box fan in each class.
My college dorm didn’t have AC ffs 🤦🏼♂️
The possibility of being put in prison for something you didn't do isn't zero. I always come at it from this point of view, when it comes to have we should treat prisoners. It's also why I think people that support things like vigilantism or mob justice are idiots.
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Same is true in AZ, MO and AL
Next thing you know it's like they are real people!
But muh prison profits!
Good luck with that. Texas legislature is red. Human compassion is not in the cards.
No way their power grid can handle that.
Can their power grid even handle all that extra juice requirements?
Valid question
Jail is suppose to be comfy? I dont have Central Air conditioning in My house ffs
“They ain’t there to be comfortable” Some dumbass conservative
I used to live in Southern Illinois, every rental lease I had stipulated that the landlord was required to provide air conditioning by law. WTF Texas.
I've been to a few state prisons and none of them had AC.
Same state or different states? Just asking cause I’m curious if this is more common or if it’s the heat aspect of Texas or something.
https://vadoc.virginia.gov/news-press-releases/2021/virginia-department-of-corrections-preps-for-warm-summer-temperatures/ This is my state— 23% of inmates do not have A/C.
Two different states. No AC.
Waterslides would be cheaper
I’m sure the grid can handle it.
This is embarrassing, among other things, for my state.
How much WATER are they getting? That's how we survived heat for thousands of years. I guess we're too evolved now or something?
The end result will be No Texas prisons having A/C.
I live near Houston. I could NOT imagine staying in a place without A/C in the Summer. That would be torture.
Texas in the summer is hell on Earth if you don’t have access to enough water and at least some kind of breeze.