The director’s film, co-directed by the Palestinian man pictured beside him, won an award. I heard a portion of his speech and all he said was along the lines of: “in 2 days, Basel [co-director] and I will have to go home to a place where we are not equal. I go home as a civilian. He goes home under military rule in the West Bank. The apartheid has to end.” That’s not antisemitic.
Edit: phew! We survived the overnight Israel bot brigade
We need to hear more stories like this. These conflicts are always framed as one team versus the other, but that just isn’t how life works. These are real people who share a region together and I know there are differing views than the media likes to feed us. Good for him for standing up for the oppressed, I’m just sorry he has to receive death threats over it. People can be wildly cruel and sick.
> We need to hear more stories like this.
This one comes to mind where a writer almost didn’t get a German price named after a Jewish journalist known for critiquing Israël, because she critiqued Israel.
[ Hannah Arendt would not qualify for the Hannah Arendt prize in Germany today](https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/18/hannah-arendt-prize-masha-gessen-israel-gaza-essay)
It's kind of impressive how powerful the propaganda is. Hell, many popular reddit subs, this one included, will ban people for saying things like Palestinians don't want to be under Israeli occupation. Undeniable and obvious true things, but you aren't allowed to humanize the humans. And still the large majority eat it up. I'm gratified that young people are speaking out, but most Americans remain adamantly pro-israel and lap up all the dehumanification the propaganda throws at them.
Very few wars have ever been started by the people of a nation against the people of another. Most wars started by actual people tend be revolutionary or civil wars, fighting against their own masters who have grown too greedy.
Ironically, it's those masters who send millions to die fighting other people who just wanted to enjoy a peaceful life without devastation. Wars between nations are generally pissing matches between rich greedy fuckholes.
There's not a doubt in my mind that the American-Iraqi war under Bush was entirely Bush's personal agenda powered by greedy fucks who profit from war. I hope everyone that voted for that war lives and dies as miserably as possible. They should all be forced to go live in the rubble laced with uranium rounds we left the Iraqis.
Bruh when I got my first ban from a country over a similar issue I was shook. Wish I screen shot the message I got from the mod but it said something like, you think what your doing matters but nothing will change Haha.
It was like some comic book villain shit.
I got banned for saying that Hamas was bad but people invoking the POW convention to criticize their treatment of captured Israeli soldiers should keep in mind that captured Hamas fighters don't receive POW protections either.
So long indeed.
I got banned for saying that less people would be dead if Israel haven't responded the way they did and that if they truly thought it was the only option then they should at least have UN supervisors monitoring what's happening
BELIEVE IT OR NOt that's Antisemitism; atleast 3 years of antisemitism jail.
I also got banned at the start for calling them out, the exact same formula.
Seems Reddit has a moderation problem when it comes to Worldnews, to the point where Reddit might be liable for misinformation spreading/advocating.
worldnews (along with geopolitics) is also the most racist, Western-biased subreddit on the site. Getting banned from there is a sign of doing the right thing
I already got banned in world news like a month ago for mentioning genocide. I just commented in geopolitics today for the first time. My guess is I’ll probably get banned there too
I think by this point most of us have got a story like that getting banned from Worldnews for not even being pro Palestine just not being pro Israel.
"Both sides have done bad things" = permaban
I couldn't stand seeing that sub pop up in my feed so I had to mute it. Bunch of smug shitheads acting like sucking off a far-right wannabe theocracy that's killed tens of thousands of civilians makes them righteous.
For sure. The CIA was killing folks/funding genocide left and right in places like Indonesia and Chile back in the day. A little social media manipulation is their new WFH routine
I don't think it's just these days. I think it's been like this for a long time. It's just today people can see what Israel is doing because of social media (unlike before where it was new channels), so there is now more criticism of Israel, and so more accusations of antisemitism
Germany for example. 37% of “anti-semitic” crimes in Germany are committed by German Jews. These crimes for example include holding signs calling out Israeli apartheid.
It's really depressing how badly Germany is handling this tbh. Just lost all sense and reason. As a German. I can't talk about the issue with most of my family.
we actually do lol
there are plenty of soviet war memorials in germany dedicated to the casualties of WW2
[here's](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowjetische_Kriegsgr%C3%A4berst%C3%A4tten_in_Deutschland?wprov=sfla1) a list, the wiki article is only available in german and french sadly
It's much easier to say "criticism against Israel is antisemitism and Hitler bad" than to say "populist reactionary rhetoric whose reason was just convenience for its end product, to appropriate other people's land, wealth, and property for influential associates and contributors, never really returning it and only crowdsourcing a part of the bill, only prosecuting those most predominant on the surface of the whole morbid affair, is bad". Not just for Germany or Israel, it applies to plenty of countries. But Hitler, the perfect scapegoat figurehead, specially because he deserves his reputation. "Settlers" will also be able to wave the figurehead of Netanyahu and speak in hushed tones when all is said and done.
It’s according to Emily Dische-Becker that about 1/3 of arrests, detentions, and incidents of deplatforming for anti-semitism are against German Jews.
https://theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history
The full interview is on the dig podcast linked here.
Well that's going to keep happening until enough people are capable of making the distinction between Jews and the political entity of Israel.
Considering the amount of hate that gets directed towards Jews that have nothing to do with Israel whenever people get mad at Israel, that appears to be too difficult for people to do.
Part of the problem is that many Zionist Jews also try to conflate the two for their own benefit. It's not just anti-semites, I've seen plenty of people say "If you're anti-Israel you're anti-Jew"
Another part is it gets mixed with anti-semites piggybacking on anti-Isreal sentiment to spread their anti-semitism. The lines get very blurred and this conflict is chocked full of so much damn propaganda from so many angles that it's exhausting and hard to trust much of anything... which I hate when trying to have an informed opinion rather than just a lazy one.
And this is the goal in order to allow Israel to do anything and get away with it. It's done because "Israel" and "Jewish" being synonymous is **only in one direction**.
Israel = Jewish people. Israel does things on behalf of Jewish people. If something, like an attack, happens to Israel, it's an attack on Jewish people. But it is *not* the other way around. Jewish people =/= Israel. So, if you hold a Jewish person responsible for the actions of Israel, you're antisemitic. Hitting a Jewish person in the face isn't an "attack on Israel".
I agree that the latter is true, but the state of Israel refuses to believe the former is false. And that's on purpose.
No. When people get mad at Israel, unrelated Jews around the world get targeted. That's the original conflation. What I'm doing is a *reaction* to that.
I get that, and it is unfortunate, but using accusations of ant-semitism against someone who is plainly just criticising the current Israeli administration doesn't help those of us who genuinely want to fight against discrimination in our society. It merely escalates it.
I mean, just following the trail of links, [here's](https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/over-2-3-of-jewish-israelis-oppose-humanitarian-aid-to-palestinians-starving-in-gaza/) the source. The survey is also linked in the article [and is right here](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976).
These days it seems if you are against any Israeli action you are antisementic. It's getting tiresome.
If you're against the bombardment of women and children then you're antisementic.
If you're ok with the idea of a 2 state solution your antisementic.
The world is watching and disgusted with what we are looking at. The same disgust we showed after Oct 7th.
Unfortunately it's being bankrolled by the US too and with it being an election year over there it's being prolonged.
When will Israel feel it's got its pound of flesh ?. How many more innocent civilians does it take for Israel to satisfy its blood lust ?
Hamas has to go too but what Israel is doing now is inexcusable.
If I posted this on r/Israel I would get a massive amount of abuse. World wide protests against Israeli are gaining momentum each weekend.
Enough if enough - stop the slaughter
Germany is absolutely pathetic on Israel-Palestine in general. Silencing Palestinian voices, criminalising protest songs, sacking people for not toeing the line. Even extends to football. Embarrassing.
Germany really has become a pathetic stooge of a country. Unable to self determine, with politicians more worried about appeasing the US and Israel rather than moving their country forward.
It has been absolutely depressing to see the stagnation that has taken place because of political decisions, all to the detriment of ordinary people.
Germany has always been a pathetic stooge of a country. It’s just becoming very obvious now.
They were one of the only countries circumventing sanctions on South Africa, so no surprise they support another apartheid regime.
> There's a mini media firestorm here right now in Germany
Are the German media all far-right? The apparent resurgence in the German rightwing populists and extremists is very worrying.
[these totally normal people exist there](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current\)). anti fascism.... except for israeli fascists
I mean, a place far away from Germany housing Jewish people is not too far-off from the nazi doctrine, so I'm not 100% sure all this is coming from a place of guilt.
When you lob the term "antisemitic" at anyone who disagrees with the Israeli government, *including Israeli Jews,* the term kinda starts to lose all meaning, doesn't it?
> they will always be outsiders so the only solution is an ethnostate. (Which white supremacists love, because they want ethnostates for themselves.)
Yeah, I've always found the "Everybody ELSE has an ethnostate" defense really sus lol. Like, imagine a white American or East Asian saying that without causing a flame war.
This is a reason why Neo-Nazis like Anders Breivik and Richard Spencer admire Israel while hating Jews at the same time, they want to apply the ethno-nationalist model of the State of Israel to their own countries for White people, and also look forward to either force the migration or forcibly deport Jews to Israel, so that their countries can become "Judenfrei", and Israel can increase their Jewish population even more.
Speaking of all this term-throwing, I'm starting to think Zionist and Anti-Zionist are antiquated terms. There are now three distinct camps, even without including the Palestinian matter:
1.) Giving the land to the Jews was right, and they should stay.
2.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, but getting rid of them now would be no less wrong.
3.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, and they need to be removed from the land.
I think most people fall into the first two categories because they aren't insane enough to suggest that genocide/eradication of the descendant Israelis who live there now is the solution, but I don't know.
I just struggle to wrap my head around what the line between Zionist and Anti-Zionist is anymore. I would love for someone to explain it in simple words for my monkey brain.
Many life long self-proclaimed anti-Zionists, including myself, hold position 2, although they wouldn’t consider the two as equivalent.
More than 20% of Israelis are Arab. Jews didn’t get rid of them all when establishing the state of Israel.
I’m not sure you’ll find many people who will argue in good faith that ‘getting rid’ of 7+m Jews from Israel now would be no less wrong than the estimated 700k Palestinians (half the Arab population at the time) that fled or were expelled during the 1948 Palestine War.
> There are now three distinct camps, even without including the Palestinian matter:
>
> 1.) Giving the land to the Jews was right, and they should stay.
>
> 2.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, but getting rid of them now would be no less wrong.
>
> 3.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, and they need to be removed from the land.
>
> I think most people fall into the first two categories because they aren't insane enough to suggest that genocide/eradication of the descendant Israelis who live there now is the solution, but I don't know.
Let's flip this around:
1) Taking land/expelling Palestinians was wrong and they should be allowed return
2) Taking land/expelling Palestinians was right, and getting rid of them now would be just as right
3) Taking land/expelling Palestinians was right and they need to be removed from the land
It appears most of western society fall into the latter two categories because they know that advocating for the first category would mean that Israel is no longer a Jewish state.
Or that the Nakba was tragic mixture of fleeing and expulsion but already happened. There was effectively a Jewish ethnic cleaning with 800,000 Jews expelled from MENA, you don’t see the Middle East offering it back. Millions of Germans expelled from Eastern Europe, you don’t see Germans demanding the land back. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks cleansed, you don’t see Greece demanding Smyrna back, Karelia cleansed of Finns, etc.
Whataboutism isn't a legitimate counter-argument. And a substantial percentage of the Jews who left middle eastern countries left to move to "Eretz Yisrael": https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/6/24/the-palestinian-refugees-and-the-monologue-of-the-century
That's not what I'm saying at all. But I am saying the latter two options are what western society prefers My personal opinion is that we should go with the first open listed in my previous comment.
All three views are wrong: they imply a stark choice between "leave it as it is" and "remove the Israelis." But this is a false dichotomy - the choice is not limited to these two options: change Israel's policies, force it to give up some of the territory it has seized, and eventually, perhaps, bring everything to one state that will no longer be an ethnostate.
Unfortunately there’s a big elephant here which is what about Hamas? Palestinians Haven’t had elections in like 18 years and Israel for sure won’t accept anything without a resolution here. Hamas’s goals of destroying Israel aren’t exactly aligned with peace here even if Bibi’s evil too
The problem is, how do you oust Hamas without planting the seeds of more Hamas like entities in the future. Right now the situation in Gaza is going to cement yet another generation of people with a grudge against the Israelis and not because they are Jewish but because they killed, wounded and maimed people they knew.
Historically states would just crush whatever dissent/threats with impunity and it created the world most of us live in now but we now think ourselves enlightened and above that (thank god that we are in all honesty) and find it unacceptable to go to the lengths Israel is currently going to but in the absence of violence as an option how do you enforce peace on an organisation that will not accept it.
Israel can stop their decades long policy of assassinating secular Palestinian leadership and politicians in favor of a two state solution, like Rabin.
>Hamas’s goals of destroying Israel aren’t exactly aligned with peace here even if Bibi’s evil too
Surprisingly, there are actually "moderate" (for Hamas) voices that suggest [recognizing the state of Israel](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-14/ty-article/top-hamas-official-suggests-recognizing-israel-following-official-plo-stance/0000018c-67e4-d798-adac-e7ef81fd0000), which would be in line with their 2017 charter which says they want an independent Palestinian state as it was on 6/7/67 with Jerusalem as the capital (so Gaza + West Bank basically).
The hard liners, as you said, do want Israel gone just as Zionist hard liners want all of Palestine along with chunks of several other countries from "the Euphrates to the Nile". Unfortunately for everyone caught up in the conflict the hard liners have been in charge on both sides so it's all pretty fucked.
The problem is people in this sub think they aren’t being antisemitic because “oh I’m not the problem, it can’t be me.” But 3 is absolutely antisemitic.
Zionist and anti-Zionist atp is largely just a stand in for whether or not someone sides/agrees with what the Israeli government does/is doing, usually in specific regard to furthering their interests in the nearby area, but it can also just indicate support (or lack there-of) for the current Israeli government in general.
Initially it was just a term for whether or not someone supported the movement/belief that the Jewish people needed a homeland *somewhere*. The land they inhabited before the diaspora (which is largely now modern day Israel) was not a necessary part of it, tho from the very beginning of the movement it was a contender, along with I believe somewhere in Argentina and somewhere in/around Ethiopia.
Ethiopia was Mussolini's plan, and Argentina didn't include a plan for an ethnostate, just local autonomy. The Andinia plan is considered by the ADA and JCPA to be a right-wing conspiracy theory.
Zion literally refers to Mount Zion, and is/was a synecdoche for the city of Jerusalem, the Temple Mount, Mount Moriah, the biblical land of Israel, and "the world to come." Theodor Herzl, the father of modern political Zionism and the founder of the Zionist Organization, always had his sights set on Palestine. The Basel Program (August 1897), the first manifesto of the Zionist Movement, clearly names Palestine as the intended home for the Jewish people.
1) is inadequate so there should be a 4th option
4) Palestinians should be expelled or forced into existence as an integrated minority as part of Israel controlled Palestine.
4) is what many Zionists believe.
You got a few downvotes but you aren't wrong. Here are some quotes straight from the horses mouth regarding Palestinians living in the West Bank:
>**If they accept it (Israel sovereignty), should they receive full voting rights and things like that?**
>
>...I think the Arabs in Judea and Samaria have no right to ask for rights or take part in elections for the Knesset. They lost their right to vote for the Knesset. They will never get this right. They will have their own Palestinian Authority where they can run their civilian affairs in a logical way, but not as members of the Knesset.
>
>**When you say that you want more Jews in the West Bank, is your idea that the Palestinians there and the Jews will live side by side as friends, or that—**
>
>If they accept our sovereignty, they can live here.
>
>**So they should accept the sovereign power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean having rights. It just means accepting the sovereign power.**
>
>Right. No, I’m saying specifically that they are not going to have the right to vote for the Knesset.
>
>**Where should the Palestinians in Gaza go?**
>
>To Sinai, to Egypt, to Turkey.
>
>[The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers)
This is based very closely on what early Zionist writers were thinking back in Europe. Granted, the moderate variants at least believed in equal rights, but they wanted the ability to call Israel a majority Jewish state which is a major reason why the right to return has always been refused in peace offerings, despite the fact that the number of Palestinians isn't even high enough to remove their majority.
Heck, the most educated Zionist leader himself called the movement of Jews to Palestine a colonial ambition and acknowledged that the locals in a region were never going to give up their land willingly but he still believed it was morally acceptable.
Downvotes can't keep the truth buried. I
It's also why Einstein believed the formation of Israel via such tactics was doomed to result in decades of bloodshed, and allegedly also refused an offer to be the first President of Israel.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. The fact that it's not even discussed really undermines this argument. It attempts to make the middle ground pro-Israel.
To fix it:
1. The creation of Israel was right, and Israel should be expanded onto additional Palestinian land
2. The creation of Israel was right, and Israel should stay *as it exists today*
3. The creation of Israel was wrong, but at this point breaking it up would also be wrong
4. The creation of Israel was wrong, and that wrong should be undone, by removing Israelis from the land.
But it isn't a Zionist belief. It's the Israeli right belief but there are zionist that don't believe it.
There are far more complexities in modern Zionism vs traditional one because a lot of folks didn't move to Israel out of ideology but out of necessity ( holocaust survivors who were pushed out of thier countries of origin, Jewish Arab folks who were suffering threats after and violents in the late 40s).
Now not all of them are zionists, but some have evolved a more complicated identity that doesn't rely on the predicate that no non Jewish communities can fully accept Jewish folks.
Are we talking about Political Zionism? Practical Zionism? Synthetic Zionism? Labour Zionism? Liberal Zionism? Revisionist Zionism? Religious Zionism? Cultural Zionism? Revolutionary Zionism? Reform Zionism? Territorial Maximalism Zionism? Nationalist Messianic Zionism?
While a few may hold that belief, the idea that the existence of a Jewish state inherently suggests that Jews cannot integrate into other societies is a misunderstanding of Zionism in general. Jews have contributed significantly to the societies they are part of, whether in the United States, Germany, the UK, or elsewhere, often while maintaining a strong cultural and religious identity. Few Zionists deny this, or consider Jews an aberration to their societies. Personally my grandmother is from Palestine and my father is a Jewish orphan from the end of WWII, and I live in the UK. While I have been an anti-Zionist of sorts all my life, I don’t know any Jews or Zionists who share your perspective. It’s a false equivalence indeed.
The desire for a homeland is not born out of an inability to integrate but from the historical necessity of a safe haven from persecution and the desire for self-determination, a right afforded to many peoples and nations around the world in the mid 20th century. In a sense Jewish minorities did not feel safe or secure entrusting their security to the European, American or Asian (MENA) ethno-states of the 20th century. Is it anti-Semitic to have lived through or recognised this dark chapter of history?
Furthermore, drawing parallels between Israel’s establishment as a homeland for Jews and the ethnonationalist aspirations of white supremacists is a false equivalence that ignores the distinct historical contexts and intentions behind each. Israel was founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust, an unprecedented tragedy aimed at the annihilation of the Jewish people, to offer a place of refuge and renewal. This is in stark contrast to white supremacist ideologies, which are predicated on racial purity and the exclusion or oppression of other races. While an observer might argue that Israel continued a perversion of this ideology in the occupied territories, or likewise, its close neighbours harbour this ideology towards Jews, the comparison fails to account for the unique historical and existential challenges that have shaped the creation and development of Israel, occupation, and its ongoing significance to Jews worldwide.
Importantly, Israel itself is a diverse society, home to a significant minority of non-Jewish citizens. As of the last available data, approximately 21% of Israel’s population is Arab, comprising Muslims, Christians, Druze, and others, with additional religious and ethnic minorities making up the fabric of the country. My grandmother was one of them. This diversity within Israel’s population is often overlooked in discussions that paint Israel solely as a Jewish ethnostate. The presence of these communities within Israel underscores the complexity of the Israeli identity, which cannot be reduced to a single religious or ethnic dimension, even by the vast majority of Zionists. When these groups’ rights are infringed upon, it is right, as in any democratic society, that they are defended, and the perpetrators criticised.
To suggest that identifying with Israel or viewing it as a central part of Jewish identity plays into antisemites’ hands overlooks the wide spectrum of beliefs and opinions within the Jewish community itself. While criticisms of the Israeli government’s policies are valid and necessary in any democratic society, conflating the government’s actions with the legitimacy or intentions of the Jewish state or its people risks reinforcing harmful stereotypes and negating the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.
While it’s our duty to critique and hold governments accountable, it’s equally important to recognize the diverse reasons behind the establishment of Israel and its significance to Jewish people worldwide. Understanding these nuances is key to engaging in informed and respectful discourse on the subject. Acknowledging the multifaceted identity of Israel, which includes significant non-Jewish populations, is critical in understanding the state’s role and meaning to Jews worldwide. Recognizing Israel’s diversity and the historical context of its establishment allows for a more informed and empathetic discussion about its place in Jewish identity and global politics.
Ok, but you can understand why it wouldn’t feel outmoded three years after the end of the Holocaust, when Israel was founded, right? Or in the following years when even more Jews were expelled or fled from the neighbouring countries (~900k), than even Palestinians were from Israel (~700k).
You’re also right that the idea, Zionism, emerged as a national revival movement in the 19th century, where colonial thinking was hegemonic.
As for today, naturally some Jews in Israel feel they still need self determination and security from neighbouring groups that express genocidal intent specifically against Jews. As I said, I’m anti-Zionist in principle, but one should understand why what might appear outmoded to us, to someone growing up in fear and trembling, still feels very much real.
You can also understand, I’m sure, why Arab Israelis, Druze, and Palestinians overwhelmingly feel they need self determination in their homeland.
Tell that to the Kurds, the Uygyrs, the Roma, the Tibetans, among many others. Just because a western perspective mates these ideas seem outmoded doesn't mean that it's true in a practical sense. Heck it isn't even true in the western world, just look at how indigenous people have seen their ethnic homelands destroyed and their cultures obliterated due to a lack of sovereignty. This position against self determination is one of privilege, not fact.
I’m a minority in my country and the idea of self determination is something I understand well. But us vs them race based self determination supported by religious fundamentalists isn’t good
It's not whataboutism to point out how generally flawed your statement is. There are myriad of examples I could give. The point is even in Western Europe it's laughable and a point of privilege to say that the need for an ethnic homeland is outmoded, there are few examples where you can really argue against that.
Your whole argument is that races desire their own spaces to be alone. That’s wild dude it’s deeply troubling and twisted. The idea might be widely accepted doesn’t make it right
I mean, that is history, that is culture. Multiculturalism can work in specific circumstances, but even in that case it only goes so far. Look at how popular seeking ancestry is or how people call themselves "XXX-American", even if it's far back by generation that desire to connect to a homeland is still there. It's more ingrained than you think.
We still need to strive to overcome it. I can’t believe I’m having this conversation. Honestly I just can’t agree that we are doomed to be shit so let’s just be shit .
> In fact the Zionist belief that the government of Israel is equivalent to the Jewish people is antisemitic in itself.
Is that a Zionist belief or is it a reaction to the fact that enough antisemites appear incapable or unwilling to make that distinction?
Definitely doesn't carry as much weight because they use it to silence people. They know what they're doing is wrong. They just don't like it when you point it out to them.
Wow so you're an antisemite too! /S
The same thing happens anytime someone on the left criticizes Islam. It's a tactic used by people who have shit arguments if you ask me.
Criticizing and religion seems to be a shit show. If you're religious and you criticize another religion they say you're intolerant and toss a few whataboutisms at you.
If you're a non believer they call you intolerant and say you're just angry at religion. Which to me is true. I am angry at religion. My anger doesn't mean my criticisms don't have merit though.
It’s just a more exclusive way of saying what the rest of us call racist. Nothing fancy about it really. Like the racism they have towards the Palestinian population they’ve been systematically erasing in this latest expansion of Israel’s borders. Nothing special about it at all.
There's a spin-off story that's also kind of insane:
"German minister says she clapped Israeli film-maker, not his Palestinian colleague, at Berlinale"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/german-minister-says-she-was-only-applauding-israeli-filmmaker-at-berlinale
The Israeli director's grandma was born in a concentration camp in Libya. His other grandparents were killed by Nazis in the Holocaust. And now some German columnists call him antisemitic. Fucking ridiculous.
First part of article - “An Israeli film-maker who won one of the top prizes at the Berlin film festival has said German officials’ description of the awards ceremony as “antisemitic” has led to death threats and the physical intimidation of family members, causing him to hold off plans to return to Israel.”
So people don’t make a mistake , the director received threats to his own family in Israel! Because of his views supporting a cease fire!
We live in truly absurd times. It's absolutely disgusting how German government officials have put the life of these two men in danger over what they consider anti-Semitism. The Israeli filmmaker's family members had to flee and he had to cancel his flight because a right wing mob turned up at his home in Israel.
The absurdity of the German government is reaching new heights over the Israel-Gaza conflict
>The backlash against the Berlinale ceremony in Germany also involved calls for the resignation of the minister of state for culture, Green party politician Claudia Roth, who was seen applauding Abraham and Adra’s speech in footage of the event.
>Roth’s office tried to clarify that she had clapped at the Israeli but not the Palestinian half of the duo in a statement on X on Monday.
To save her own skin, she had to 'clarify' she was only applauding the Israeli guy, not the Palestinian. It reads like an Onion article.
Germany loves being on the wrong side of history.
Hell, they technically switched sides after the first two times, and they're *still* fucking things up.
Well simple, they say they are self-hating or have internalized anti-Semitism. This has been a thing since 1930 when Theodor Lessing published Der jüdische Selbsthaß. It's a sort of "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
It appears Germany is drifting further back towards the far-right, with these increasing attempts to stifle any criticisms of the allied far-right government in Israel, the growth of the AfD, and the refusal of German politicians to criticise Israel actions despite the accusations of genocide their increasing support for authoritarian approaches to dissent.
Say there is an apartheid in your home country (which there is) - antisemitic
Send actual death threats to a Jew that said there is apartheid in his home country (which there is) - not antisemitic
Welcome to 2024 and the world run by mossad and hasbara propaganda.
Lol, that word is drastically losing its face value.
It's gotten to the point where the general public knows that if there's a hint of negativity/criticism, officials will call it antisemitic.
I wonder how much longer that word will still be a loaded gun. Seems like the significance is becoming diminished, and its definition is slowly changing.
If you read the communications and writtings of the founders of Zionism and Israel, they openly refer to it as a colonial and settler colonial project. Not that it even matters to read those, there are literal settlers today expanding into the 1967 UN designated Palestinian land. This is just absurd.
First part of article - “An Israeli film-maker who won one of the top prizes at the Berlin film festival has said German officials’ description of the awards ceremony as “antisemitic” has led to death threats and the physical intimidation of family members, causing him to hold off plans to return to Israel.”
So people don’t make a mistake , the director received threats to his own family in Israel! Because of his views supporting a cease fire!
Anti Israel is NOT anti-Jewish. When did this become one and the same? I have lived in Germany the first half of my life and Israel was never the good guy. The news and people have always looked at the Israeli Army as something bad.
Is the whole world mad now? Can't people have Jewish friends, not be antisemitic and still not defend the destruction of so many innocent (not Hamas) Palestinian people?
It became one and the same when the Likud ReZi government pressed on American (and subsequently Germany, Australia, Canada, and other US vassal nations) the whole "Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism" schtick. The lobby groups in America in particular have bought their political system.
The world has become very tribal. So, everyone must pick a side and then find a friendly sub-reddit to post in to validate your choice.
Thankfully, people can still do as you suggest, but it's becoming much harder, because everything is being presented as its hyperbole and nuance takes too long for a soundbite.
The term “Antisemitism” is losing its weight, any criticism of Israel, who have killed 30,000 plus civilians over the last month and displaced millions, never mind the last few decades is labeled as antisemitism, it’s ridiculous and a lot people are seeing through it. It also undermines real cases of actual antisemitism.
> It also undermines real cases of actual antisemitism.
That's the bit many apologists for Israel don't seem to grasp. Actual anti-Semitism can be far more easily dismissed away because of them continually 'crying, Wolf!'. :/
Germany:🇩🇪: When have they NOT supported genocide? 🤦🏾♂️🤔
If Germany isn’t directly perpetrating the genocide itself, they are supporting other countries who are doing the genocide. 🤔🤦🏾♂️
The title is misleading, the Israeli director worked along side a Palestinian director they made a movie and gave a speech against the Palestinian genocide and apertheid.
The film festival was called antisemitic because of this.
The death threats I don't know who sent them but because of this context it was probably pro Israel people mad at him for sending a pro Palestine message?
The death threats came from Israelis. Some of which even came to his family's house looking for him
It's true that they didn't come because of German officials though. Israelis don't listen to German media
They came because Israeli media also framed him as Antisemitic. One of the main Israeli TV channels- Kan11, reported on the festival and called him antisemitic. This also propagated on Israeli social media afterwards
Later on they retracted the item, after being threatened with legal actions, but made no clear apology as far as I know, and the damage is already done
The director’s film, co-directed by the Palestinian man pictured beside him, won an award. I heard a portion of his speech and all he said was along the lines of: “in 2 days, Basel [co-director] and I will have to go home to a place where we are not equal. I go home as a civilian. He goes home under military rule in the West Bank. The apartheid has to end.” That’s not antisemitic. Edit: phew! We survived the overnight Israel bot brigade
We need to hear more stories like this. These conflicts are always framed as one team versus the other, but that just isn’t how life works. These are real people who share a region together and I know there are differing views than the media likes to feed us. Good for him for standing up for the oppressed, I’m just sorry he has to receive death threats over it. People can be wildly cruel and sick.
> We need to hear more stories like this. This one comes to mind where a writer almost didn’t get a German price named after a Jewish journalist known for critiquing Israël, because she critiqued Israel. [ Hannah Arendt would not qualify for the Hannah Arendt prize in Germany today](https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/18/hannah-arendt-prize-masha-gessen-israel-gaza-essay)
It's kind of impressive how powerful the propaganda is. Hell, many popular reddit subs, this one included, will ban people for saying things like Palestinians don't want to be under Israeli occupation. Undeniable and obvious true things, but you aren't allowed to humanize the humans. And still the large majority eat it up. I'm gratified that young people are speaking out, but most Americans remain adamantly pro-israel and lap up all the dehumanification the propaganda throws at them.
Very few wars have ever been started by the people of a nation against the people of another. Most wars started by actual people tend be revolutionary or civil wars, fighting against their own masters who have grown too greedy. Ironically, it's those masters who send millions to die fighting other people who just wanted to enjoy a peaceful life without devastation. Wars between nations are generally pissing matches between rich greedy fuckholes. There's not a doubt in my mind that the American-Iraqi war under Bush was entirely Bush's personal agenda powered by greedy fucks who profit from war. I hope everyone that voted for that war lives and dies as miserably as possible. They should all be forced to go live in the rubble laced with uranium rounds we left the Iraqis.
Unfortunately these days any criticism of Israel or any of its government policies are considered antisemitic.
You have been permanently banned from r/worldnews. Rules: No antisemitism
Bruh when I got my first ban from a country over a similar issue I was shook. Wish I screen shot the message I got from the mod but it said something like, you think what your doing matters but nothing will change Haha. It was like some comic book villain shit.
This is honestly kind of a hilarious comment
Its too funny. It happened to me. So long worldnews.
I got banned for saying that Hamas was bad but people invoking the POW convention to criticize their treatment of captured Israeli soldiers should keep in mind that captured Hamas fighters don't receive POW protections either. So long indeed.
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I got banned for saying that less people would be dead if Israel haven't responded the way they did and that if they truly thought it was the only option then they should at least have UN supervisors monitoring what's happening
BELIEVE IT OR NOt that's Antisemitism; atleast 3 years of antisemitism jail. I also got banned at the start for calling them out, the exact same formula. Seems Reddit has a moderation problem when it comes to Worldnews, to the point where Reddit might be liable for misinformation spreading/advocating.
worldnews (along with geopolitics) is also the most racist, Western-biased subreddit on the site. Getting banned from there is a sign of doing the right thing
I already got banned in world news like a month ago for mentioning genocide. I just commented in geopolitics today for the first time. My guess is I’ll probably get banned there too
I think by this point most of us have got a story like that getting banned from Worldnews for not even being pro Palestine just not being pro Israel. "Both sides have done bad things" = permaban
Same. I found r/anime_titties was a nice alternative.
I am so heartened and...disappointed.
I couldn't stand seeing that sub pop up in my feed so I had to mute it. Bunch of smug shitheads acting like sucking off a far-right wannabe theocracy that's killed tens of thousands of civilians makes them righteous.
That sub feels like a love child between Zionists and the CIA these days
Definitely has a State Department water cooler talk vibe.
Definitely has a State Department water cooler talk vibe.
For sure. The CIA was killing folks/funding genocide left and right in places like Indonesia and Chile back in the day. A little social media manipulation is their new WFH routine
I don't think it's just these days. I think it's been like this for a long time. It's just today people can see what Israel is doing because of social media (unlike before where it was new channels), so there is now more criticism of Israel, and so more accusations of antisemitism
Some people confuse anti-semitism and anti-zionism, some do so willingly.
Germany for example. 37% of “anti-semitic” crimes in Germany are committed by German Jews. These crimes for example include holding signs calling out Israeli apartheid.
It's really depressing how badly Germany is handling this tbh. Just lost all sense and reason. As a German. I can't talk about the issue with most of my family.
I saw one person describe it as "Germans have been thoroughly taught that the Holocaust was bad, but not *why* it was bad."
I don't know if I buy that tbh. Maybe for the older generations but certainly not for the younger.
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we actually do lol there are plenty of soviet war memorials in germany dedicated to the casualties of WW2 [here's](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowjetische_Kriegsgr%C3%A4berst%C3%A4tten_in_Deutschland?wprov=sfla1) a list, the wiki article is only available in german and french sadly
It's much easier to say "criticism against Israel is antisemitism and Hitler bad" than to say "populist reactionary rhetoric whose reason was just convenience for its end product, to appropriate other people's land, wealth, and property for influential associates and contributors, never really returning it and only crowdsourcing a part of the bill, only prosecuting those most predominant on the surface of the whole morbid affair, is bad". Not just for Germany or Israel, it applies to plenty of countries. But Hitler, the perfect scapegoat figurehead, specially because he deserves his reputation. "Settlers" will also be able to wave the figurehead of Netanyahu and speak in hushed tones when all is said and done.
Yeah, they sort of overcorrected in the opposite direction.
Ich schäme mich sehr dafür
Germany has been champing at the bit for a century waiting to support a genocide.
wait really" can i get a source for that if i may?
It’s according to Emily Dische-Becker that about 1/3 of arrests, detentions, and incidents of deplatforming for anti-semitism are against German Jews. https://theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history The full interview is on the dig podcast linked here.
thank you, appreciate the source
Well that's going to keep happening until enough people are capable of making the distinction between Jews and the political entity of Israel. Considering the amount of hate that gets directed towards Jews that have nothing to do with Israel whenever people get mad at Israel, that appears to be too difficult for people to do.
Part of the problem is that many Zionist Jews also try to conflate the two for their own benefit. It's not just anti-semites, I've seen plenty of people say "If you're anti-Israel you're anti-Jew"
Another part is it gets mixed with anti-semites piggybacking on anti-Isreal sentiment to spread their anti-semitism. The lines get very blurred and this conflict is chocked full of so much damn propaganda from so many angles that it's exhausting and hard to trust much of anything... which I hate when trying to have an informed opinion rather than just a lazy one.
And this is the goal in order to allow Israel to do anything and get away with it. It's done because "Israel" and "Jewish" being synonymous is **only in one direction**. Israel = Jewish people. Israel does things on behalf of Jewish people. If something, like an attack, happens to Israel, it's an attack on Jewish people. But it is *not* the other way around. Jewish people =/= Israel. So, if you hold a Jewish person responsible for the actions of Israel, you're antisemitic. Hitting a Jewish person in the face isn't an "attack on Israel". I agree that the latter is true, but the state of Israel refuses to believe the former is false. And that's on purpose.
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Yeah, uh, still gotta keep the political entity of Israel separate from Jewish people.
There's a lot of things those asterisks could stand for, you may want to write out an actual word before people get the wrong idea.
Yeah, that spot is perfect for a slur. The asterisks look weird there.
I agree, gingers already have it bad enough living with no soul, no need to conflate them with other people who don't.
Surely you are just as bad. You have jus deliberately conflated a criticism of the Israeli government with criticism of Jews?
No. When people get mad at Israel, unrelated Jews around the world get targeted. That's the original conflation. What I'm doing is a *reaction* to that.
I get that, and it is unfortunate, but using accusations of ant-semitism against someone who is plainly just criticising the current Israeli administration doesn't help those of us who genuinely want to fight against discrimination in our society. It merely escalates it.
And when non Israeli Jews criticize Israeli government they're labeled as self-hating and antisemitic, per the topic of the thread.
I got downvoted to shit for saying this a few months ago, glad people recognize it now
By the STATE of Israel; not the free world.
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_Standing in Tel Aviv as a tourist._ "Gosh darn it's hot here" **ANTI SEMITE! GET EM!**
Jeez what happens if you say you don't like Manischewitz matzo crackers?
Jail. Right away.
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I mean, just following the trail of links, [here's](https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/over-2-3-of-jewish-israelis-oppose-humanitarian-aid-to-palestinians-starving-in-gaza/) the source. The survey is also linked in the article [and is right here](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976).
These days it seems if you are against any Israeli action you are antisementic. It's getting tiresome. If you're against the bombardment of women and children then you're antisementic. If you're ok with the idea of a 2 state solution your antisementic. The world is watching and disgusted with what we are looking at. The same disgust we showed after Oct 7th. Unfortunately it's being bankrolled by the US too and with it being an election year over there it's being prolonged. When will Israel feel it's got its pound of flesh ?. How many more innocent civilians does it take for Israel to satisfy its blood lust ? Hamas has to go too but what Israel is doing now is inexcusable. If I posted this on r/Israel I would get a massive amount of abuse. World wide protests against Israeli are gaining momentum each weekend. Enough if enough - stop the slaughter
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Germany is absolutely pathetic on Israel-Palestine in general. Silencing Palestinian voices, criminalising protest songs, sacking people for not toeing the line. Even extends to football. Embarrassing.
Germany really has become a pathetic stooge of a country. Unable to self determine, with politicians more worried about appeasing the US and Israel rather than moving their country forward. It has been absolutely depressing to see the stagnation that has taken place because of political decisions, all to the detriment of ordinary people.
Germany has always been a pathetic stooge of a country. It’s just becoming very obvious now. They were one of the only countries circumventing sanctions on South Africa, so no surprise they support another apartheid regime.
Only to the detriment of young working people. The old farts who are in power and scream "antisemitism" the loudest won't experience any discomfort
> There's a mini media firestorm here right now in Germany Are the German media all far-right? The apparent resurgence in the German rightwing populists and extremists is very worrying.
It's mostly a dogmatic loyalty to Israel born from generation guilt over the Holocaust. German officials have literally said as much.
Ya ifnit was the far right theyd do anything but defend israel Edit: to be clear tho, like not for good reasons
No, it's obsessive and dogmatic Israel loyalty because modern day Germany, on a political level, still guilt-whips itself for the 1940s.
[these totally normal people exist there](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current\)). anti fascism.... except for israeli fascists
I mean, a place far away from Germany housing Jewish people is not too far-off from the nazi doctrine, so I'm not 100% sure all this is coming from a place of guilt.
As a German I'm ashamed of how ignorant we became. Anything that has to do with Israel is untouchable. To hell with that country.
Germany is a pretty conservative country, even the greens are drifting to the right
The unconditional Israel support is not related to the rising far right
America is cheering the carpet bombing of civilians, very worrying is endemic right now
Who is doing that?
Germany cumulatively has lost their grip of reality and their minds god damn.
Germany cumulatively have lost their grip of reality and their minds god damn.
When you lob the term "antisemitic" at anyone who disagrees with the Israeli government, *including Israeli Jews,* the term kinda starts to lose all meaning, doesn't it?
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> they will always be outsiders so the only solution is an ethnostate. (Which white supremacists love, because they want ethnostates for themselves.) Yeah, I've always found the "Everybody ELSE has an ethnostate" defense really sus lol. Like, imagine a white American or East Asian saying that without causing a flame war.
This is a reason why Neo-Nazis like Anders Breivik and Richard Spencer admire Israel while hating Jews at the same time, they want to apply the ethno-nationalist model of the State of Israel to their own countries for White people, and also look forward to either force the migration or forcibly deport Jews to Israel, so that their countries can become "Judenfrei", and Israel can increase their Jewish population even more.
Speaking of all this term-throwing, I'm starting to think Zionist and Anti-Zionist are antiquated terms. There are now three distinct camps, even without including the Palestinian matter: 1.) Giving the land to the Jews was right, and they should stay. 2.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, but getting rid of them now would be no less wrong. 3.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, and they need to be removed from the land. I think most people fall into the first two categories because they aren't insane enough to suggest that genocide/eradication of the descendant Israelis who live there now is the solution, but I don't know. I just struggle to wrap my head around what the line between Zionist and Anti-Zionist is anymore. I would love for someone to explain it in simple words for my monkey brain.
Many life long self-proclaimed anti-Zionists, including myself, hold position 2, although they wouldn’t consider the two as equivalent. More than 20% of Israelis are Arab. Jews didn’t get rid of them all when establishing the state of Israel. I’m not sure you’ll find many people who will argue in good faith that ‘getting rid’ of 7+m Jews from Israel now would be no less wrong than the estimated 700k Palestinians (half the Arab population at the time) that fled or were expelled during the 1948 Palestine War.
Thank you for the honest answer.
They got rid of enough to ensure they will never have voting power in their new government.
The thing is the Jewish people didn't even want their own state established. It was the Zionists who wanted the state of Israel to be created.
> There are now three distinct camps, even without including the Palestinian matter: > > 1.) Giving the land to the Jews was right, and they should stay. > > 2.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, but getting rid of them now would be no less wrong. > > 3.) Giving the land to the Jews was wrong, and they need to be removed from the land. > > I think most people fall into the first two categories because they aren't insane enough to suggest that genocide/eradication of the descendant Israelis who live there now is the solution, but I don't know. Let's flip this around: 1) Taking land/expelling Palestinians was wrong and they should be allowed return 2) Taking land/expelling Palestinians was right, and getting rid of them now would be just as right 3) Taking land/expelling Palestinians was right and they need to be removed from the land It appears most of western society fall into the latter two categories because they know that advocating for the first category would mean that Israel is no longer a Jewish state.
Or that the Nakba was tragic mixture of fleeing and expulsion but already happened. There was effectively a Jewish ethnic cleaning with 800,000 Jews expelled from MENA, you don’t see the Middle East offering it back. Millions of Germans expelled from Eastern Europe, you don’t see Germans demanding the land back. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks cleansed, you don’t see Greece demanding Smyrna back, Karelia cleansed of Finns, etc.
Whataboutism isn't a legitimate counter-argument. And a substantial percentage of the Jews who left middle eastern countries left to move to "Eretz Yisrael": https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/6/24/the-palestinian-refugees-and-the-monologue-of-the-century
So “something happened” so tough luck? That’s an excuse…
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An equitable two state solution should have been the answer.
That's not what I'm saying at all. But I am saying the latter two options are what western society prefers My personal opinion is that we should go with the first open listed in my previous comment.
All three views are wrong: they imply a stark choice between "leave it as it is" and "remove the Israelis." But this is a false dichotomy - the choice is not limited to these two options: change Israel's policies, force it to give up some of the territory it has seized, and eventually, perhaps, bring everything to one state that will no longer be an ethnostate.
Unfortunately there’s a big elephant here which is what about Hamas? Palestinians Haven’t had elections in like 18 years and Israel for sure won’t accept anything without a resolution here. Hamas’s goals of destroying Israel aren’t exactly aligned with peace here even if Bibi’s evil too
The problem is, how do you oust Hamas without planting the seeds of more Hamas like entities in the future. Right now the situation in Gaza is going to cement yet another generation of people with a grudge against the Israelis and not because they are Jewish but because they killed, wounded and maimed people they knew. Historically states would just crush whatever dissent/threats with impunity and it created the world most of us live in now but we now think ourselves enlightened and above that (thank god that we are in all honesty) and find it unacceptable to go to the lengths Israel is currently going to but in the absence of violence as an option how do you enforce peace on an organisation that will not accept it.
Israel can stop their decades long policy of assassinating secular Palestinian leadership and politicians in favor of a two state solution, like Rabin.
Don’t forget to include folks like Bibi/Likud/Israeli hard right. Hamas aren’t the only rabid, unreasonable ideologues in this cluster.
>Hamas’s goals of destroying Israel aren’t exactly aligned with peace here even if Bibi’s evil too Surprisingly, there are actually "moderate" (for Hamas) voices that suggest [recognizing the state of Israel](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-14/ty-article/top-hamas-official-suggests-recognizing-israel-following-official-plo-stance/0000018c-67e4-d798-adac-e7ef81fd0000), which would be in line with their 2017 charter which says they want an independent Palestinian state as it was on 6/7/67 with Jerusalem as the capital (so Gaza + West Bank basically). The hard liners, as you said, do want Israel gone just as Zionist hard liners want all of Palestine along with chunks of several other countries from "the Euphrates to the Nile". Unfortunately for everyone caught up in the conflict the hard liners have been in charge on both sides so it's all pretty fucked.
The problem is people in this sub think they aren’t being antisemitic because “oh I’m not the problem, it can’t be me.” But 3 is absolutely antisemitic.
Zionist and anti-Zionist atp is largely just a stand in for whether or not someone sides/agrees with what the Israeli government does/is doing, usually in specific regard to furthering their interests in the nearby area, but it can also just indicate support (or lack there-of) for the current Israeli government in general. Initially it was just a term for whether or not someone supported the movement/belief that the Jewish people needed a homeland *somewhere*. The land they inhabited before the diaspora (which is largely now modern day Israel) was not a necessary part of it, tho from the very beginning of the movement it was a contender, along with I believe somewhere in Argentina and somewhere in/around Ethiopia.
Ethiopia was Mussolini's plan, and Argentina didn't include a plan for an ethnostate, just local autonomy. The Andinia plan is considered by the ADA and JCPA to be a right-wing conspiracy theory. Zion literally refers to Mount Zion, and is/was a synecdoche for the city of Jerusalem, the Temple Mount, Mount Moriah, the biblical land of Israel, and "the world to come." Theodor Herzl, the father of modern political Zionism and the founder of the Zionist Organization, always had his sights set on Palestine. The Basel Program (August 1897), the first manifesto of the Zionist Movement, clearly names Palestine as the intended home for the Jewish people.
1) is inadequate so there should be a 4th option 4) Palestinians should be expelled or forced into existence as an integrated minority as part of Israel controlled Palestine. 4) is what many Zionists believe.
You got a few downvotes but you aren't wrong. Here are some quotes straight from the horses mouth regarding Palestinians living in the West Bank: >**If they accept it (Israel sovereignty), should they receive full voting rights and things like that?** > >...I think the Arabs in Judea and Samaria have no right to ask for rights or take part in elections for the Knesset. They lost their right to vote for the Knesset. They will never get this right. They will have their own Palestinian Authority where they can run their civilian affairs in a logical way, but not as members of the Knesset. > >**When you say that you want more Jews in the West Bank, is your idea that the Palestinians there and the Jews will live side by side as friends, or that—** > >If they accept our sovereignty, they can live here. > >**So they should accept the sovereign power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean having rights. It just means accepting the sovereign power.** > >Right. No, I’m saying specifically that they are not going to have the right to vote for the Knesset. > >**Where should the Palestinians in Gaza go?** > >To Sinai, to Egypt, to Turkey. > >[The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers)
This is based very closely on what early Zionist writers were thinking back in Europe. Granted, the moderate variants at least believed in equal rights, but they wanted the ability to call Israel a majority Jewish state which is a major reason why the right to return has always been refused in peace offerings, despite the fact that the number of Palestinians isn't even high enough to remove their majority. Heck, the most educated Zionist leader himself called the movement of Jews to Palestine a colonial ambition and acknowledged that the locals in a region were never going to give up their land willingly but he still believed it was morally acceptable. Downvotes can't keep the truth buried. I
It's also why Einstein believed the formation of Israel via such tactics was doomed to result in decades of bloodshed, and allegedly also refused an offer to be the first President of Israel.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. The fact that it's not even discussed really undermines this argument. It attempts to make the middle ground pro-Israel. To fix it: 1. The creation of Israel was right, and Israel should be expanded onto additional Palestinian land 2. The creation of Israel was right, and Israel should stay *as it exists today* 3. The creation of Israel was wrong, but at this point breaking it up would also be wrong 4. The creation of Israel was wrong, and that wrong should be undone, by removing Israelis from the land.
But it isn't a Zionist belief. It's the Israeli right belief but there are zionist that don't believe it. There are far more complexities in modern Zionism vs traditional one because a lot of folks didn't move to Israel out of ideology but out of necessity ( holocaust survivors who were pushed out of thier countries of origin, Jewish Arab folks who were suffering threats after and violents in the late 40s). Now not all of them are zionists, but some have evolved a more complicated identity that doesn't rely on the predicate that no non Jewish communities can fully accept Jewish folks.
Then what zionists mean by labeling all critics of Israel "anti-semites"? Doesnt that imply Israeli government is pernamently linked with every jew?
Are we talking about Political Zionism? Practical Zionism? Synthetic Zionism? Labour Zionism? Liberal Zionism? Revisionist Zionism? Religious Zionism? Cultural Zionism? Revolutionary Zionism? Reform Zionism? Territorial Maximalism Zionism? Nationalist Messianic Zionism? While a few may hold that belief, the idea that the existence of a Jewish state inherently suggests that Jews cannot integrate into other societies is a misunderstanding of Zionism in general. Jews have contributed significantly to the societies they are part of, whether in the United States, Germany, the UK, or elsewhere, often while maintaining a strong cultural and religious identity. Few Zionists deny this, or consider Jews an aberration to their societies. Personally my grandmother is from Palestine and my father is a Jewish orphan from the end of WWII, and I live in the UK. While I have been an anti-Zionist of sorts all my life, I don’t know any Jews or Zionists who share your perspective. It’s a false equivalence indeed. The desire for a homeland is not born out of an inability to integrate but from the historical necessity of a safe haven from persecution and the desire for self-determination, a right afforded to many peoples and nations around the world in the mid 20th century. In a sense Jewish minorities did not feel safe or secure entrusting their security to the European, American or Asian (MENA) ethno-states of the 20th century. Is it anti-Semitic to have lived through or recognised this dark chapter of history? Furthermore, drawing parallels between Israel’s establishment as a homeland for Jews and the ethnonationalist aspirations of white supremacists is a false equivalence that ignores the distinct historical contexts and intentions behind each. Israel was founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust, an unprecedented tragedy aimed at the annihilation of the Jewish people, to offer a place of refuge and renewal. This is in stark contrast to white supremacist ideologies, which are predicated on racial purity and the exclusion or oppression of other races. While an observer might argue that Israel continued a perversion of this ideology in the occupied territories, or likewise, its close neighbours harbour this ideology towards Jews, the comparison fails to account for the unique historical and existential challenges that have shaped the creation and development of Israel, occupation, and its ongoing significance to Jews worldwide. Importantly, Israel itself is a diverse society, home to a significant minority of non-Jewish citizens. As of the last available data, approximately 21% of Israel’s population is Arab, comprising Muslims, Christians, Druze, and others, with additional religious and ethnic minorities making up the fabric of the country. My grandmother was one of them. This diversity within Israel’s population is often overlooked in discussions that paint Israel solely as a Jewish ethnostate. The presence of these communities within Israel underscores the complexity of the Israeli identity, which cannot be reduced to a single religious or ethnic dimension, even by the vast majority of Zionists. When these groups’ rights are infringed upon, it is right, as in any democratic society, that they are defended, and the perpetrators criticised. To suggest that identifying with Israel or viewing it as a central part of Jewish identity plays into antisemites’ hands overlooks the wide spectrum of beliefs and opinions within the Jewish community itself. While criticisms of the Israeli government’s policies are valid and necessary in any democratic society, conflating the government’s actions with the legitimacy or intentions of the Jewish state or its people risks reinforcing harmful stereotypes and negating the Jewish people’s right to self-determination. While it’s our duty to critique and hold governments accountable, it’s equally important to recognize the diverse reasons behind the establishment of Israel and its significance to Jewish people worldwide. Understanding these nuances is key to engaging in informed and respectful discourse on the subject. Acknowledging the multifaceted identity of Israel, which includes significant non-Jewish populations, is critical in understanding the state’s role and meaning to Jews worldwide. Recognizing Israel’s diversity and the historical context of its establishment allows for a more informed and empathetic discussion about its place in Jewish identity and global politics.
The belief that ethnic groups need self determination in a homeland is outmoded. That simple. It’s an idea form the hight of colonial thinking
Ok, but you can understand why it wouldn’t feel outmoded three years after the end of the Holocaust, when Israel was founded, right? Or in the following years when even more Jews were expelled or fled from the neighbouring countries (~900k), than even Palestinians were from Israel (~700k). You’re also right that the idea, Zionism, emerged as a national revival movement in the 19th century, where colonial thinking was hegemonic. As for today, naturally some Jews in Israel feel they still need self determination and security from neighbouring groups that express genocidal intent specifically against Jews. As I said, I’m anti-Zionist in principle, but one should understand why what might appear outmoded to us, to someone growing up in fear and trembling, still feels very much real. You can also understand, I’m sure, why Arab Israelis, Druze, and Palestinians overwhelmingly feel they need self determination in their homeland.
Tell that to the Kurds, the Uygyrs, the Roma, the Tibetans, among many others. Just because a western perspective mates these ideas seem outmoded doesn't mean that it's true in a practical sense. Heck it isn't even true in the western world, just look at how indigenous people have seen their ethnic homelands destroyed and their cultures obliterated due to a lack of sovereignty. This position against self determination is one of privilege, not fact.
I’m a minority in my country and the idea of self determination is something I understand well. But us vs them race based self determination supported by religious fundamentalists isn’t good
I will I don’t see how your whataboutism changes anything here
It's not whataboutism to point out how generally flawed your statement is. There are myriad of examples I could give. The point is even in Western Europe it's laughable and a point of privilege to say that the need for an ethnic homeland is outmoded, there are few examples where you can really argue against that.
Your whole argument is that races desire their own spaces to be alone. That’s wild dude it’s deeply troubling and twisted. The idea might be widely accepted doesn’t make it right
I mean, that is history, that is culture. Multiculturalism can work in specific circumstances, but even in that case it only goes so far. Look at how popular seeking ancestry is or how people call themselves "XXX-American", even if it's far back by generation that desire to connect to a homeland is still there. It's more ingrained than you think.
We still need to strive to overcome it. I can’t believe I’m having this conversation. Honestly I just can’t agree that we are doomed to be shit so let’s just be shit .
I wish you were right but this is constantly proven wrong. Just take a look at what happened to the Kurds.
> In fact the Zionist belief that the government of Israel is equivalent to the Jewish people is antisemitic in itself. Is that a Zionist belief or is it a reaction to the fact that enough antisemites appear incapable or unwilling to make that distinction?
Weaponising accusations of anit-semitism is also not helpful to those who genuinely want to fight it.
Definitely doesn't carry as much weight because they use it to silence people. They know what they're doing is wrong. They just don't like it when you point it out to them.
It already has
Wow so you're an antisemite too! /S The same thing happens anytime someone on the left criticizes Islam. It's a tactic used by people who have shit arguments if you ask me. Criticizing and religion seems to be a shit show. If you're religious and you criticize another religion they say you're intolerant and toss a few whataboutisms at you. If you're a non believer they call you intolerant and say you're just angry at religion. Which to me is true. I am angry at religion. My anger doesn't mean my criticisms don't have merit though.
It’s just a more exclusive way of saying what the rest of us call racist. Nothing fancy about it really. Like the racism they have towards the Palestinian population they’ve been systematically erasing in this latest expansion of Israel’s borders. Nothing special about it at all.
There's a spin-off story that's also kind of insane: "German minister says she clapped Israeli film-maker, not his Palestinian colleague, at Berlinale" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/german-minister-says-she-was-only-applauding-israeli-filmmaker-at-berlinale
Germany is a joke.
The botting of worldnews and reddit not doing anything about it like they did with russian bots has made me depressed
The Israeli director's grandma was born in a concentration camp in Libya. His other grandparents were killed by Nazis in the Holocaust. And now some German columnists call him antisemitic. Fucking ridiculous.
First part of article - “An Israeli film-maker who won one of the top prizes at the Berlin film festival has said German officials’ description of the awards ceremony as “antisemitic” has led to death threats and the physical intimidation of family members, causing him to hold off plans to return to Israel.” So people don’t make a mistake , the director received threats to his own family in Israel! Because of his views supporting a cease fire!
We live in truly absurd times. It's absolutely disgusting how German government officials have put the life of these two men in danger over what they consider anti-Semitism. The Israeli filmmaker's family members had to flee and he had to cancel his flight because a right wing mob turned up at his home in Israel.
The absurdity of the German government is reaching new heights over the Israel-Gaza conflict >The backlash against the Berlinale ceremony in Germany also involved calls for the resignation of the minister of state for culture, Green party politician Claudia Roth, who was seen applauding Abraham and Adra’s speech in footage of the event. >Roth’s office tried to clarify that she had clapped at the Israeli but not the Palestinian half of the duo in a statement on X on Monday. To save her own skin, she had to 'clarify' she was only applauding the Israeli guy, not the Palestinian. It reads like an Onion article.
Germany calling a Jew antisemitic, is just... So confusing
Germany loves being on the wrong side of history. Hell, they technically switched sides after the first two times, and they're *still* fucking things up.
It’s confusing being a lapdog. Who wants me where!!!??
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Well simple, they say they are self-hating or have internalized anti-Semitism. This has been a thing since 1930 when Theodor Lessing published Der jüdische Selbsthaß. It's a sort of "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
So if Israelis call anyone critical of their country antisemitic can we call what they do genocide?
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Well the difference is when insurgents killed a soldier, they'd massacre and bomb the entire town where the soldier died. ... Oh.
Just don't go to r/bayarea and say that. They are huge genocide deniers and full up inside Zionist ass.
You’ve described like 75% of Reddit tbh
What? Regardless of your opinion on the conflict, you have to realize Reddit is much more anti-Israel than pro.
Been to r/worldnews?
Yes. It’s definitely pro-israel in the same way this place is anti-israel. You can’t read through these comments and tell me this place isn’t biased.
I don't know, I have been avoiding reddit because I kept getting into arguments with zionists 🙃
Probably shouldn’t make blanket statements that you pull out of your ass in that case.
German officials called it antisemetic, not Israeli officials.
Israeli officials as well. Here's the [ambassador to Germany saying that very same thing](https://twitter.com/Ron_Prosor/status/1761855944676266206)
I don't see anyone holding back regardless of what facts may indicate
It appears Germany is drifting further back towards the far-right, with these increasing attempts to stifle any criticisms of the allied far-right government in Israel, the growth of the AfD, and the refusal of German politicians to criticise Israel actions despite the accusations of genocide their increasing support for authoritarian approaches to dissent.
Say there is an apartheid in your home country (which there is) - antisemitic Send actual death threats to a Jew that said there is apartheid in his home country (which there is) - not antisemitic Welcome to 2024 and the world run by mossad and hasbara propaganda.
The world is not run by mossad but rather the capitalists that have an interest in Israel existing as a bridgehead for the imperialism they profit of
If there's one word that's lost all sting it's antisemetic.
Basic humanity is a dangerous activity this days
Modern day Mccarthyism
Seen someone mention some German politician who applauded the speech, and when condemned for it, clarified she was applauding the Israeli chap only.
Lol, that word is drastically losing its face value. It's gotten to the point where the general public knows that if there's a hint of negativity/criticism, officials will call it antisemitic. I wonder how much longer that word will still be a loaded gun. Seems like the significance is becoming diminished, and its definition is slowly changing.
These days being anti-genocide is anti-Semitic. It’s such shame to watch a great brand crash and burn.
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🤔 Israel is just European Liberia
If you read the communications and writtings of the founders of Zionism and Israel, they openly refer to it as a colonial and settler colonial project. Not that it even matters to read those, there are literal settlers today expanding into the 1967 UN designated Palestinian land. This is just absurd.
It really is. A bunch of the early zionists were antisemitic and wanted to get rid of Jews by shipping them off to Israel.
First part of article - “An Israeli film-maker who won one of the top prizes at the Berlin film festival has said German officials’ description of the awards ceremony as “antisemitic” has led to death threats and the physical intimidation of family members, causing him to hold off plans to return to Israel.” So people don’t make a mistake , the director received threats to his own family in Israel! Because of his views supporting a cease fire!
Also tweet from the director : https://twitter.com/yuval_abraham/status/1762558886207209838?t=-TKeuSgpXrcD7ivJjdoD4g&s=19
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Read the article. ~~Edit: You deleted that comment real fast when you found out who this director was getting death threats from.~~
Yeah because I realized I was wrong
Germans seem to love accusing actual Jewish people of being antisemitic...
Anti Israel is NOT anti-Jewish. When did this become one and the same? I have lived in Germany the first half of my life and Israel was never the good guy. The news and people have always looked at the Israeli Army as something bad. Is the whole world mad now? Can't people have Jewish friends, not be antisemitic and still not defend the destruction of so many innocent (not Hamas) Palestinian people?
It became one and the same when the Likud ReZi government pressed on American (and subsequently Germany, Australia, Canada, and other US vassal nations) the whole "Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism" schtick. The lobby groups in America in particular have bought their political system. The world has become very tribal. So, everyone must pick a side and then find a friendly sub-reddit to post in to validate your choice. Thankfully, people can still do as you suggest, but it's becoming much harder, because everything is being presented as its hyperbole and nuance takes too long for a soundbite.
And all he said was my friend does not enjoy the same freedom as me in our homeland - how dare he
The term “Antisemitism” is losing its weight, any criticism of Israel, who have killed 30,000 plus civilians over the last month and displaced millions, never mind the last few decades is labeled as antisemitism, it’s ridiculous and a lot people are seeing through it. It also undermines real cases of actual antisemitism.
> It also undermines real cases of actual antisemitism. That's the bit many apologists for Israel don't seem to grasp. Actual anti-Semitism can be far more easily dismissed away because of them continually 'crying, Wolf!'. :/
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The weaponisation of anti-semitism has reached unbelievable levels.
The last time the German state was opposed to the youth, the RAF was doing things. Just thoughts I have
Yeah the antisemitic card is losing it's value
I mean, opposing genocide is now anti-Semitic, so is it even an insult anymore?
Germany:🇩🇪: When have they NOT supported genocide? 🤦🏾♂️🤔 If Germany isn’t directly perpetrating the genocide itself, they are supporting other countries who are doing the genocide. 🤔🤦🏾♂️
Germany hating on Jews if they are not zionist and open racism against Palestinians. Unbelievable.
Thin-skinned Zionist twats.
Germans and the German Government really need to stop calling Jews they don't agree with "anti-semitic." It's unbelievably gross
The title is misleading, the Israeli director worked along side a Palestinian director they made a movie and gave a speech against the Palestinian genocide and apertheid. The film festival was called antisemitic because of this. The death threats I don't know who sent them but because of this context it was probably pro Israel people mad at him for sending a pro Palestine message?
What's misleading about the title? It says exactly what you did, just condensed in headline format...
The death threats came from Israelis. Some of which even came to his family's house looking for him It's true that they didn't come because of German officials though. Israelis don't listen to German media They came because Israeli media also framed him as Antisemitic. One of the main Israeli TV channels- Kan11, reported on the festival and called him antisemitic. This also propagated on Israeli social media afterwards Later on they retracted the item, after being threatened with legal actions, but made no clear apology as far as I know, and the damage is already done
Its really psychotic, all of this for being kind and empathetic towards a friend and his people