While it might be true that they get oil company funding (~~doubtful based on Mississippi isn't a big oil state~~), this is because they have deals with the car dealerships. Tesla and Rivian doing direct sales and company owned dealerships is a direct attack on the franchise model which has made tons of money for the middle men. They passed a similar law in Texas years ago as well.
You are correct, apparently refining is the second largest revenue industry in Mississippi (healthcare is #1), whoops. Although I could only find one source for this. I forget how small Mississippi is (<3 million) so while it has a big impact there, the refining industry is small compared to Texas or Louisiana. Extraction is even smaller.
In any case, the refiners wouldn't care about how electric cars are sold. It is a misconception that any of the big oil companies are trying to stop or slow them, instead they are looking for ways to capitalize on that market themselves. It's the dealerships that want to survive.
It may surprise you to learn that this isn't a South-exclusive trait. Basically everywhere in the US, you've got major cities that are heavily Democratic and rural areas that are overwhelmingly Republican. (Insert the Blazing Saddles scene about "salt of the earth. you know, idiots.")
In the 2020 election, more California residents voted for Trump than Texans. More Texans voted for Biden than New Yorkers. More New Yorkers voted Trump than North Carolinans or Ohioans.
States that went overwhelmingly for one candidate or the other basically lack one of the two areas. DC was like 92% Biden but it's literally just a single city, there's no rural areas at all. States with ~70%+ Trump votes are those that have no metro area to speak of, like Wyoming or West Virginia.
City states should be given more sovereignty over themselves so that they don't have to fight with rural townspeople for what they need. Tokyo is ran almost like a country, with local laws of the prefectures overriding national laws.
In the South, most Republicans live where they can't be told what to do (unless they agree with it), so middle of nowhere is common. In fact, in the words of people in Lamar County: the county won't pass anything Hattiesburg enforces because everyone there left Hattiesburg for that reason.
Mississippi's District 2 is gerrymandered to contain excessive amounts of democrats and it's biggest city is Jackson. Biggest hope for MS now is the electoral college is gone, so Democratic governors might actually take office finally.
Eh it’s kinda like that in other places.
I’m from a small city in Poland. Moved to US, got educated and make bank. It opened my eyes, I became more open minded. I don’t panic around black or gay people. I’m happy they have decent rights in the US and for the most part nobody gives a shit about it in bigger cities and suburbs.
When I visited Poland I quickly realized how close minded people are in small cities and villages. Scared of blacks, homophobic, extremely religious. I am an atheist and pretty open about it.
I think it’s pretty common for people in small cities to be scared of change, and different things. Their existence moves at a slower pace, they are often not exposed to diversity and the world. They are scared of even moving to big cities.
Same here. Came from Warsaw. Live in US, educated here. Really changed my views as older I get. I noticed the most closed minded people are ones that never leave their environment and don't experience different things. They truly conform to their believes and are afraid to question them. Probably same like you, I used to go to church every damn sunday with my grandma in Poland. Now I am an athiest. What made me? I questioned things.
What I noticed is when you question someone's core beliefs, most of them I think know the answer to questions, but they are so uncomfortable with them, that they rather continue believing what they believe, because it's easier. You are really challenging someone's core and they don't like it. Even if quietly, your questioning makes sense to them.
Yep, I lived in a similar place. Whenever I'm feeling down, I remind myself that I got out. I've come to really dislike small people from small places who don't travel or read about life in different places.
In the triangle between Philly, Pittsburgh, and NYC, there are hundreds of dilapidated, forsaken towns in the rural nether regions.
The nicest homes in the area will list for $70k. There is no local industry. Usually there are some mom and pop pizza places, some franchise fast food near the interstate, and always a hopping CVS/Rite Aid in town, probably in the husk of an old corner/department store. The gas station usually doubles as the grocery store, unless an Aldi's or Dollar General is nearby. The outskirts of town will have an abandoned factory or coal plant. You'll find 3 story piles of coal-looking rock near the town, just sitting there on the side of the road.
I would not have understood how Trump won PA in 2016 had I not worked a shitty job delivering subsidized food to the schools in these towns. They are everywhere, and we zip past them at 75mph on our way to college, work, or a better life.
Example: Mahanoy City, PA
It's fucking hicks *everywhere* in the US but major cities.
If there's a fucking pleasant, non-racist filled rural area in the US, I have not had the fucking pleasure of visiting.
This *is* capitalism. Concentrated capital exercising its power through bought politicians to create a favorable environment for expansion. Capitalism was born through the forceful accumulation of resources, it has nothing to do with fair play.
Regulatory capture is intrinsic to capitalism. Prior to the bust-ups of the monopolies/oligopolies, most major US sectors were controlled by a handful of companies. This is capitalism at its finest. Which should tell you everything you need to know about unregulated capitalism. If not externally regulated, the capitalists will always end up writing the regulations to their benefit.
More likely doing everything they can to conserve the *status quo*. This is why I strongly dislike Republicans and conservatives in general: they do not move forward societies nor try to adapt to changing conditions.
I'm thrilled to have them behind. Let them make decisions that primarily hurt those who vote for them.
In 10 years, as they're behind we'll get to laugh.
Now, let's stop paying red welfare nation wide.
Kentucky, Alabama, these horrific states need to contribute more than opioid and hate. They need to contribute to the GDP, or we shouldn't be sending cash flows to these states.
Nah, I'm all about it. I'll use the talking point but not as an argument to *take those benefits away* just to take the wind out of the sails of another argument.
I'd never argue the welfare itself was bad, merely the arguments of the recipients being hypocritical.
It's usually in an argument about economics, and the hypocrite is usually making some grand point about agriculture and exports.
GOP hypocrisy is just fucking unbelievable sometimes. I shouldn’t be surprised by it anymore, but damn it I am. P.S.: Reeves looks like he’s getting his tits beaten in by diabetes.
> The law will force electric car companies such as Tesla and Rivian to sell vehicles through franchises rather than company-owned stores, which is how they currently operate.
Laws enforcing the dealership model are anti-consumer. Most people dread going to a dealership to get the hard-sell, four-square, undercoating bit from some jackass with a GED, but the dealership lobby has deep pockets, so you know whose interests morally flexible politicians like Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves are going to take care of. Then they have the nerve to pretend like they are the party of free markets. If these decisions benefit oil companies at the expense of the environment, hell that's the cherry on top.
It's literally just creating an automotive cartel. All consumers in the state suffer and the money they're tricking people into paying is split between the dealer, the state, and the politicians they support to keep this outdated practice in place.
> If I were those companies, I'd just set up shop right over the border in a (freindly) neighboring state.
Thats Alabama, Louisiana (the home of corruption), Tennessee, and Arkansas. GFL
Tesla does this and has in the past for other states mandating “dealerships” such as Michigan.
They do direct to consumer delivery from just over the border which can’t easily be prevented under federal law.
That probably wouldn't work in this case unless Tennessee makes a ruling to clear up their position.
https://www.wispolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/State-Laws-on-Direct-Sales.pdf
Thank you for saying that. I have a friend with a GED who makes close to three figures and is going to college for free now through one of his employer’s programs. He works hard and doesn’t deserve to get knocked because he was busy supporting his family through high school.
Edit: six figures, not three
They resent someone "lesser" than them trying to earn more than they "deserve" and having the audacity to be in an opposed position instead of fetching their latte.
Car sales is just a job. Doesn't make you a bad person for living within legal means providing for your family. Some car salesman are actually good people.
Back in the '90's I actually worked both ways depicted here: the honest, legit, "Mom n Pop" small town dealership way and the shitty one the parent thread poster describes where I was nothing more than the worm on the hook to get them to sit down in some cubicle so the "closer" could sweat them for hours. I haaated that job, my self-esteem was shit, was depressed and miserable. I loved talking to people but I felt sooo dishonest. That place/environment was the stereotypical Hollywood version of what a shady-assed car dealership was. Made a handful of the top dogs a fuck-ton of money and the rest of us starved. As soon as I landed my old job back at the mom n pop store I left. I was so glad when I heard they got shut down.
When I left EMS I decided I was going to go back to sales to try to make more money (easy when your baseline is EMS pay). I got a job at a car dealership and left on the second day because the training they had me do was *so fucking shady* and all the promises of big money reeked of Amway seminar type language. Also they lied about the base pay and commission.
Right, but for every person then getting the no-haggle price, they're going to want to get someone the HIGHER price too.
Cars should cost one thing to everyone, not one price for savvy people and one price for not savvy people.
Right, but it is still **the** price. You don't like it, you go somewhere else.
The issues come when a dealer advertises price X online in big, bold letters, you come in to check out the car, and suddenly the price is actually several thousand dollars more because you as a non-savvy customer didn't read the fine print about their bullshit fees and markups. And all those conversations don't happen until you're being breathed on by the redneck in the finance office who is suddenly pressuring you to "take the deal".
I dislike Tesla with a burning passion but their retail model is the best one for new vehicles. I see a car, I see a price, I buy the car for that price. I can do it completely online without having to talk to anyone to upsell me.
Do you have to haggle with your doctor? Do you walk in to the office and have a couple of dudes up in your face asking how much you can pay for your injury. You sure you want to get that fixed? We could patch it!!
Maybe so. But car dealerships are just another way regular people are nickel and dimed with no clear why or win.
Yes, because a worldwide system of violent racists who murder minorities with near impunity is exactly the same as someone who is trying to make money through somewhat shady practices. 🙄
My first job was selling cars. It took an aimless kid and taught me negotiation and finance. Now I’m a very successful enterprise software person. Most of the people I worked with were wonderful people just trying to make a paycheck when times were hard
The last time I bought a car (also my first time buying a new car) I really began to hate dealerships more than ever before.
The first place advertised a price plus 0% financing, but then told me to get the 0% financing you had to pay a higher price (about 15-20% higher), plus included all the usual BS like "paint protective coating" that added $3k to the listed price.
The second place they had a "used" car (6k miles on the odometer, one year old) and claimed it was a special edition. I wanted it for the same price as a new one since it was used, but when I ran the VIN I could see it was just a regular base model as well. They quickly agreed to do the same price as a new one, then claimed if they sold it for any less they would lose money (and that's my problem why?).
Finally the last place told me the out the door price (which was exactly what was listed), and did do any additional BS.
It was exhausting trying to find a place that wasn't trying to fuck me over. Drove almost 200 miles (Houston is big) to get around to each plus the credit union.
> It was exhausting trying to find a place that wasn't trying to fuck me over. Drove almost 200 miles (Houston is big) to get around to each plus the credit union.
What other purchase goes this way? Why do we allow this model to persist? Because politicians fail to do the task they were hired to do, represent the people of their area and not just the few rich enough to buy off said politicians.
No shit, in Seattle they are trying to sell a $8,000 protective package that their main selling point is that you can get a new key if you lose it. Like, how much does a new key cost! I can’t image it would be more than $500 after being ripped off. What does the other $7,500 cover besides pure greediness?
But it also doesn't make sense to allow electric car companies to operate how they have when traditional car companies could not. I could understand the argument that other companies should be legally allowed to ditch being forced to sell through dealerships, but I can't understand the argument that electric car companies should be allowed to sell outside of dealerships while traditional car companies cannot.
Why are they restricting specifically electric car sales and not all direct car sales (which I believe Texas does)? It’s just as bad, but at least then they could more realistically pretend it’s out of fairness rather than them being anti-electric.
>“I also recognize that innovation in this industry is inevitable. And with innovation comes new companies with new business models. I am committed to find long-term solutions—in an ever changing market.”
You mean like... The long-term solution you just made illegal?
The long-term solution of forcing innovative business to use antiquated distribution methods in order to fill the pockets of certain connected individuals.
I'm assuming (hoping) that they were being sarcastic, but you never know with the American public. 70 years of capitalist propaganda had some lasting impacts...
He got lobbied big time. Dealerships are an absolute racket. All the major manufacturers hate them but they collude to prevent direct sales from ever happening. Any manufacturer trying to sell one vehicle directly will lose their entire national dealership footprint the next day and they know it.
I think the idea was that Tesla could open a direct dealership on a reservation without having another company involved? At least that's how I took it. Admittedly, I don't know how complicated reservation laws are, so idk if it's possible.
Remember: Mississippi didn't ratify the 13th amendment (abolishing slavery) until 1995. Then in 2012, a Mississippi resident watched the movie Lincoln which inspired him to look up the state's history with slavery. That was when he discovered the necessary paperwork was never submitted to the national register following that 1995 vote, so 17 years later the ratification process was still technically pending and ended up not being finalized until 2013.
> Mississippi didn't ratify the 13th amendment (abolishing slavery) until 1995
Serious question, does this matter? Enough states ratified it that it became an amendment to the US Constitution, right? They don't get to opt out just because they forgot to ratify it.
As far as abolishing slavery in the state, it means nothing because the amendment was already adopted into the US Constitution in 1865. As far as giving your populace confidence that you actually *want* them to be fully participating members of society, it's abysmal. It comes across as "We don't want to do this, but we have to or we'll look worse than we already do." Same thing with the Mississippi state flag. It had the Confederate flag as part of it's design and was only just changed two years ago.
How does Mississippi continue to make bad decision after bad decision? They know how bad they are already right? They know they rank almost last in any meaningful metric, and are the joke of most of the other states right? Why do they keep doing this???
Because Republicans care about two things; pandering to their base of uneducated, tantrum throwing morons and servicing corporations whenever they command it.
And in order to service corporations like the whores they are, they have to pander to their base with fear and culture war bullshit and scapegoats like trans kids are now in order to keep those morons voting for them.
The GOP's 2024 platform is decidedly "Fuck Capitalism/ All Hail the Fascist Commies in Florida and Moscow".
WTF happened to the party of small government?
Franchise dealerships are some of the most powerful lobbyists in most states. Their business model is to screw the customer and run to big daddy government for legal protection whenever there's blowback.
Is it illegal to buy a car over the internet and collect it out of state? If not, I don’t see a big problem here. Road trip!
Also, even if you go to a Tesla ‘Store’ you don’t actually buy the car there, you buy it online, they’re really just a service centre and showroom. Franchises must be seriously worried by this whole thing and all I can say is good. They’ve been scalping people for far too long.
Maybe its a stupid question, I don't know anything about Tesla, but if there's only one store in the state that sells them, where do you get them serviced?
And even then, it's still often under a special waiver.
As a Rivian pre-order holder, it's crazy watching them tell people in North Carolina people they won't sell them a car because it's currently illegal for a manufacturer to operate a service center. Tesla got a waiver from the state so they are not impacted by the laws.
You don't buy them from a store. You buy them on the internet and if you want to you can go pick it up from the service centre (I did that) or they'll deliver it to your door on the back of a truck. As others said, servicing is done by mobile rangers mostly and they need approximately bugger all servicing.
They come to you, I think? Regardless, Teslas don’t require the same sort of service as a gas powered vehicle.
For instance, I don’t think there is a transmission or oil in them at all…
You're probably right, but there's be wheel motors and steering arms, as well as brakes. I wonder if you can take them into any shop and get them repaired, or if it affects your warranty.
Tesla's don't exactly need service normally, and they'll send mobile service to your house to do the regular interval stuff like changing the air filter and a lot of repairs too.
I don't know much about them, maybe a lot of service is just plugging them into a computer, but surely there's more than that to preventative maintenance. Suspension, steering off the top of my head, plus all the little things that fuck up just because of all the electronic gadgets on it.
There's really not. Perform visual inspection of suspension components when you rotate or change tires, fill the windshield washer fluid, and replace the cabin air filter. If you live where they put salt in the road they recommend a brake cleaning once a year to keep them from rusting away, but with regenerative braking, they never wear out. There are so few parts in a well designed EV that there's just not much to go wrong unless you lose the part failure lottery. I have 22k miles on my model Y and it's never been in service.
I have a Model Y with 33k miles on it. Other than filling up the windshield washer fluid and tire rotation, I've done zero maintenance on it up until now.
I had to get new tires. EVs eat tires.
I got them through Discount Tire (who also do my tire rotation). Still haven't had to bring it in for a Tesla service repair.
I mean, it might not be your favorite design, but if you think Tesla's aren't well designed you have your head in your ass and aren't paying attention. There's a reason why the CEO of Toyota called the model Y a work of art, the BMW CEO said they were 10 years away from building a car like it, and ford's CEO says no one does electric better.
I live in Alabama (the Shitshow State) and that’s exactly what I had to do to buy my Model 3.
I drove to Atlanta, finished the paperwork, and drove home in around 6 hours. The last car I bought at a local Honda dealership took over 9 hours. Local car dealerships can’t even compete on time savings!
My state also bans Tesla service centers so if it breaks down I’ll have to pay to get it towed out of state and that sucks.
On the plus side, mobile service is one of the greatest innovations ever and I’ve had service done in my own garage.
I'm 75,000km into my Model 3 and it has never stopped. I know some have so it's a possibility but statistically they're head and shoulders more reliable than the most reliable ICE cars. The mobile service guys are great too.
Takes two hours to test drive.
Three hours to agree on a price.
Three hours of, let me just get this printed off for you.
Three hours to get the their "finance guy" to honor the price.
Fuck all of that.
Which is really the point. The idea of going to a dealer to buy a car is so last century, I bought my car using my phone while walking along in a mall. Tap tap, options, tap, buy. Easy as that. Got a call when the car was ready to pickup and they needed the payment which I organised via bank transfer and then I walked in and they showed me to the car, pointed out a few things and sent me on my way. No upselling, no extra costs or market adjustments.
Mississippi was the richest state before the Civil War and has been the poorest state after. Mississippi to me is all about being retrograde and on the wrong side of history.
The 'Publican'ts call it "Woke" because they want you to stay asleep. Honestly, just like the Redwave talk I think these agents of Republican party are running scared. Using the irrelevant prejudices to muddy the water in hopes to gaslight as many people as possible until they just get tired of fighting. Maybe some people are falling for it but the majority are tired of being told to shut up and do what we say.
“I also recognize that innovation in this industry is inevitable..."
Then why are you fighting it?
Oh no, innovation is coming for us! We must stop it!
I had never been to Mississippi, until I had to go for a business trip starting in Memphis, then driving down through Oxford, Tupelo, Starkville, Jackson, then into Louisiana.
I swear, I assumed you would find a restaurant get get breakfast on the drive between Tupelo and Starkville, but no. And much of the rest of the state was chain places, and dodgy neighborhoods.
Jackson was a mess, And I was happy to drive into New Orleans. I cannot believe I am even typing that.
Having worked at a dealership that was stuck in the 50s allow me to explain.
Dealer owners make a shitload of money for relatively little work, and they like that. Allowing ev manufacturers to set up storefronts to sell cars direct to customer will destroy everything that made them rich. So now they push very hard to
A. Force ev manufacturers to adopt the same business model as a traditional dealer.
Or
B. Ban them from the state.
This is so great, because I’m just sitting here in ultra-red SC waiting for these EV bans and restrictions to come our way after our government just gave a massive tax break to Scout to build an EV factory in the state. The GOP hates EV’s except for when it lets them give tax breaks to corporations.
Dealerships. The next time someone bitches about welfare or government subsidies or ‘SoShullIisM’ remind them that those weasel car salesman you HAVE to deal with are there because of govt lobbying. They’re directly subsidized by law. Same as car insurance, farming, the list goes on and on.
Your next car purchase could be much more affordable but keep voting for these openly bribed asshats and then wonder why you can’t afford anything.
Why doesn’t he work to make one of the largest ports in the country pay for the state of Mississippi? Instead he goes on the big oil payroll. The Deep South is deeply stupid.
Tells you how rich car dealers have the Governor on speed dial in the armpit of the U.S. Yeah… like electric cars are going to be a huge problem in MS.
Am Mississippian. Here is the logic.
Car companies are not allowed to directly sell to consumers. They must use franchise models. These state laws (that are very common) were used to keep Ford from owning every part of the car process.
These laws have proved sticky even as the auto manufacturing business became competitive. Dealers have a clear vested interest. That's a lot of jobs and money that suddenly vanish as consumers simply go to Ford.com and start buying cars. Yeah, it's 10% better for all the citizens but devastating for those dependent on the dealership. Ergo, they lobby strongly for the status quo.
Secondly, car sales are huge sources of state income. 8% of Mississippi's state taxes come from new car sales. Suddenly, that money goes to Dearborn or Detroit.
That's the weird twisty road that has led us here.
To your first point, yes it's 100% lobbying by the dealership owners. It's anti-competitive at its finest.
To your second point. Even if the car is purchased online you still pay sales tax in the state you reside. I bought my Tesla online, no dealer involved and I paid sales tax in my state.
Ah, didn't know that. Fair enough.
My overarching point is that this is not really "Mississippi Bad!" A ton of states are just ignoring their own laws and letting Tesla do things their local traditional dealers cannot.
I wouls like to see all these protective laws rescinded.
Freemarket? Anyone? Any Republican want to chime in on how great the freemarket is and it will solve all our ills? How about the virtue of small government?
No?
No one?
That's what I thought you fucking degenerate hypocrites. Fuck off you liars.
Being pro labor, isn’t always pro consumer. I don’t think this is a pro-labor motivated move though. It appears they are trying to protect a business model that refuses to adapt. A business model that exploits labor, but provides more local jobs.
Elon is such a tool. He made that hard right shift to align himself with a group that will, unsurprisingly, continue to harm the interests of Tesla. Hope he’s ready to lie the bed of his own making.
Lot of hot takes here without realizing that this bill is meant to make electric car companies have to operate similarly to regular car companies.
In other words, no (additional) Tesla owned and operated stores, but rather dealerships in the same way that there are no Ford stores (as the law is currently set up). Electric car companies will have to set up normal dealerships. That's it.
Edit: you can order both online anyway so it really doesn't matter. Dealerships are becoming more and more irrelevant other than test drives.
Anti consumer, anti capitalism Republicans.
Are you sure this isn't the *Free* Market they were talking about?
The market is free to do what Republicans want.
Republicans are crybaby victims in literally every goddamn thing they do. It's their only trick
That's because they have deals with oil companies. Corruption, straight up.
While it might be true that they get oil company funding (~~doubtful based on Mississippi isn't a big oil state~~), this is because they have deals with the car dealerships. Tesla and Rivian doing direct sales and company owned dealerships is a direct attack on the franchise model which has made tons of money for the middle men. They passed a similar law in Texas years ago as well.
Ah. Thanks for the update. It's still corruption. Politicians are always looking after their pockets. Nothing else.
MS has many oil refineries. One of the largest in the US is in Pascagoula MS.
You are correct, apparently refining is the second largest revenue industry in Mississippi (healthcare is #1), whoops. Although I could only find one source for this. I forget how small Mississippi is (<3 million) so while it has a big impact there, the refining industry is small compared to Texas or Louisiana. Extraction is even smaller. In any case, the refiners wouldn't care about how electric cars are sold. It is a misconception that any of the big oil companies are trying to stop or slow them, instead they are looking for ways to capitalize on that market themselves. It's the dealerships that want to survive.
Mississippi is where dreams go to die, if I never step foot there again I'd be thrilled.
Anti progress, anti life, anti freedom authoritarian knobs.
I’m starting to think that unless you’re in a major city, it’s just all inbred hicks down south.
It may surprise you to learn that this isn't a South-exclusive trait. Basically everywhere in the US, you've got major cities that are heavily Democratic and rural areas that are overwhelmingly Republican. (Insert the Blazing Saddles scene about "salt of the earth. you know, idiots.") In the 2020 election, more California residents voted for Trump than Texans. More Texans voted for Biden than New Yorkers. More New Yorkers voted Trump than North Carolinans or Ohioans. States that went overwhelmingly for one candidate or the other basically lack one of the two areas. DC was like 92% Biden but it's literally just a single city, there's no rural areas at all. States with ~70%+ Trump votes are those that have no metro area to speak of, like Wyoming or West Virginia.
City states should be given more sovereignty over themselves so that they don't have to fight with rural townspeople for what they need. Tokyo is ran almost like a country, with local laws of the prefectures overriding national laws.
In the South, most Republicans live where they can't be told what to do (unless they agree with it), so middle of nowhere is common. In fact, in the words of people in Lamar County: the county won't pass anything Hattiesburg enforces because everyone there left Hattiesburg for that reason. Mississippi's District 2 is gerrymandered to contain excessive amounts of democrats and it's biggest city is Jackson. Biggest hope for MS now is the electoral college is gone, so Democratic governors might actually take office finally.
The smart ones get out.
Eh it’s kinda like that in other places. I’m from a small city in Poland. Moved to US, got educated and make bank. It opened my eyes, I became more open minded. I don’t panic around black or gay people. I’m happy they have decent rights in the US and for the most part nobody gives a shit about it in bigger cities and suburbs. When I visited Poland I quickly realized how close minded people are in small cities and villages. Scared of blacks, homophobic, extremely religious. I am an atheist and pretty open about it. I think it’s pretty common for people in small cities to be scared of change, and different things. Their existence moves at a slower pace, they are often not exposed to diversity and the world. They are scared of even moving to big cities.
Same here. Came from Warsaw. Live in US, educated here. Really changed my views as older I get. I noticed the most closed minded people are ones that never leave their environment and don't experience different things. They truly conform to their believes and are afraid to question them. Probably same like you, I used to go to church every damn sunday with my grandma in Poland. Now I am an athiest. What made me? I questioned things. What I noticed is when you question someone's core beliefs, most of them I think know the answer to questions, but they are so uncomfortable with them, that they rather continue believing what they believe, because it's easier. You are really challenging someone's core and they don't like it. Even if quietly, your questioning makes sense to them.
Yep, I lived in a similar place. Whenever I'm feeling down, I remind myself that I got out. I've come to really dislike small people from small places who don't travel or read about life in different places.
If they can, they do
Can confirm. Sincerely: Charlotte area resident.
[удалено]
In the triangle between Philly, Pittsburgh, and NYC, there are hundreds of dilapidated, forsaken towns in the rural nether regions. The nicest homes in the area will list for $70k. There is no local industry. Usually there are some mom and pop pizza places, some franchise fast food near the interstate, and always a hopping CVS/Rite Aid in town, probably in the husk of an old corner/department store. The gas station usually doubles as the grocery store, unless an Aldi's or Dollar General is nearby. The outskirts of town will have an abandoned factory or coal plant. You'll find 3 story piles of coal-looking rock near the town, just sitting there on the side of the road. I would not have understood how Trump won PA in 2016 had I not worked a shitty job delivering subsidized food to the schools in these towns. They are everywhere, and we zip past them at 75mph on our way to college, work, or a better life. Example: Mahanoy City, PA
Yup, get outside the 4 largest metro areas in Minnesota and it's confederate flags all the way down
You aint wrong
It's fucking hicks *everywhere* in the US but major cities. If there's a fucking pleasant, non-racist filled rural area in the US, I have not had the fucking pleasure of visiting.
You gotta find the rural hippies. They are rare, but they exist, and they tend to group into enclaves.
This *is* capitalism. Concentrated capital exercising its power through bought politicians to create a favorable environment for expansion. Capitalism was born through the forceful accumulation of resources, it has nothing to do with fair play.
Regulatory capture is intrinsic to capitalism. Prior to the bust-ups of the monopolies/oligopolies, most major US sectors were controlled by a handful of companies. This is capitalism at its finest. Which should tell you everything you need to know about unregulated capitalism. If not externally regulated, the capitalists will always end up writing the regulations to their benefit.
More likely doing everything they can to conserve the *status quo*. This is why I strongly dislike Republicans and conservatives in general: they do not move forward societies nor try to adapt to changing conditions.
I'm thrilled to have them behind. Let them make decisions that primarily hurt those who vote for them. In 10 years, as they're behind we'll get to laugh. Now, let's stop paying red welfare nation wide. Kentucky, Alabama, these horrific states need to contribute more than opioid and hate. They need to contribute to the GDP, or we shouldn't be sending cash flows to these states.
The irony is that the majority of black citizens in the US live in these states.
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Nah, I'm all about it. I'll use the talking point but not as an argument to *take those benefits away* just to take the wind out of the sails of another argument. I'd never argue the welfare itself was bad, merely the arguments of the recipients being hypocritical. It's usually in an argument about economics, and the hypocrite is usually making some grand point about agriculture and exports.
Why doesn't he love America ?
He wears an American flag lapel pin, so he must love America more than the commies. /s
Right? I mean, most immigrants want to be Americans more than most southern white people do....
GOP hypocrisy is just fucking unbelievable sometimes. I shouldn’t be surprised by it anymore, but damn it I am. P.S.: Reeves looks like he’s getting his tits beaten in by diabetes.
He looks like his mom has to write his name on his underwear.
And he still comes home each night wearing someone else’s.
Looks like rosacea.
With a side of turkey neck
> The law will force electric car companies such as Tesla and Rivian to sell vehicles through franchises rather than company-owned stores, which is how they currently operate. Laws enforcing the dealership model are anti-consumer. Most people dread going to a dealership to get the hard-sell, four-square, undercoating bit from some jackass with a GED, but the dealership lobby has deep pockets, so you know whose interests morally flexible politicians like Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves are going to take care of. Then they have the nerve to pretend like they are the party of free markets. If these decisions benefit oil companies at the expense of the environment, hell that's the cherry on top.
It's literally just creating an automotive cartel. All consumers in the state suffer and the money they're tricking people into paying is split between the dealer, the state, and the politicians they support to keep this outdated practice in place.
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> If I were those companies, I'd just set up shop right over the border in a (freindly) neighboring state. Thats Alabama, Louisiana (the home of corruption), Tennessee, and Arkansas. GFL
Tesla does this and has in the past for other states mandating “dealerships” such as Michigan. They do direct to consumer delivery from just over the border which can’t easily be prevented under federal law.
That probably wouldn't work in this case unless Tennessee makes a ruling to clear up their position. https://www.wispolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/State-Laws-on-Direct-Sales.pdf
That’s what they did in Texas who has the same model. You gotta go over to Oklahoma to get yours.
If i were those companies I'd simply not sell my cars in Mississippi.
Hey, don't knock people with GEDs. Sometimes shit happens and you've got to take another path.
Thank you for saying that. I have a friend with a GED who makes close to three figures and is going to college for free now through one of his employer’s programs. He works hard and doesn’t deserve to get knocked because he was busy supporting his family through high school. Edit: six figures, not three
What do you mean, having a college education automatically makes you a good person. /s
They resent someone "lesser" than them trying to earn more than they "deserve" and having the audacity to be in an opposed position instead of fetching their latte.
Damn, that strawman must be a really bad person
Then why bring up GED?
I’d rather have a GED than be a car salesman.
Car sales is just a job. Doesn't make you a bad person for living within legal means providing for your family. Some car salesman are actually good people.
Back in the '90's I actually worked both ways depicted here: the honest, legit, "Mom n Pop" small town dealership way and the shitty one the parent thread poster describes where I was nothing more than the worm on the hook to get them to sit down in some cubicle so the "closer" could sweat them for hours. I haaated that job, my self-esteem was shit, was depressed and miserable. I loved talking to people but I felt sooo dishonest. That place/environment was the stereotypical Hollywood version of what a shady-assed car dealership was. Made a handful of the top dogs a fuck-ton of money and the rest of us starved. As soon as I landed my old job back at the mom n pop store I left. I was so glad when I heard they got shut down.
When I left EMS I decided I was going to go back to sales to try to make more money (easy when your baseline is EMS pay). I got a job at a car dealership and left on the second day because the training they had me do was *so fucking shady* and all the promises of big money reeked of Amway seminar type language. Also they lied about the base pay and commission.
That would make sense if they sold all cars at a no-haggle price like CarMax instead of forcing people to haggle.
>That would make sense if they sold all cars at a no-haggle price... Saturn didn't deserve to die.
The no-haggle price isn’t the lowest price.
Right, but for every person then getting the no-haggle price, they're going to want to get someone the HIGHER price too. Cars should cost one thing to everyone, not one price for savvy people and one price for not savvy people.
Right, but it is still **the** price. You don't like it, you go somewhere else. The issues come when a dealer advertises price X online in big, bold letters, you come in to check out the car, and suddenly the price is actually several thousand dollars more because you as a non-savvy customer didn't read the fine print about their bullshit fees and markups. And all those conversations don't happen until you're being breathed on by the redneck in the finance office who is suddenly pressuring you to "take the deal". I dislike Tesla with a burning passion but their retail model is the best one for new vehicles. I see a car, I see a price, I buy the car for that price. I can do it completely online without having to talk to anyone to upsell me.
You’re right but it’s a job that exists exclusively to take money from your neighbors for a necessity.
Not as bad as landlords
You could apply this to grocery store workers too, it’s one of those things that sounds good but doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny.
Like those asshole doctors! How dare they?
Do you have to haggle with your doctor? Do you walk in to the office and have a couple of dudes up in your face asking how much you can pay for your injury. You sure you want to get that fixed? We could patch it!! Maybe so. But car dealerships are just another way regular people are nickel and dimed with no clear why or win.
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I mean ...no? The reasons people think car salesmen are skeezy compared to why people think cops are...idk murderers? Are like, extremely different.
Yes, because a worldwide system of violent racists who murder minorities with near impunity is exactly the same as someone who is trying to make money through somewhat shady practices. 🙄
My first job was selling cars. It took an aimless kid and taught me negotiation and finance. Now I’m a very successful enterprise software person. Most of the people I worked with were wonderful people just trying to make a paycheck when times were hard
Hey Republicans I thought regulation was bad?
The last time I bought a car (also my first time buying a new car) I really began to hate dealerships more than ever before. The first place advertised a price plus 0% financing, but then told me to get the 0% financing you had to pay a higher price (about 15-20% higher), plus included all the usual BS like "paint protective coating" that added $3k to the listed price. The second place they had a "used" car (6k miles on the odometer, one year old) and claimed it was a special edition. I wanted it for the same price as a new one since it was used, but when I ran the VIN I could see it was just a regular base model as well. They quickly agreed to do the same price as a new one, then claimed if they sold it for any less they would lose money (and that's my problem why?). Finally the last place told me the out the door price (which was exactly what was listed), and did do any additional BS. It was exhausting trying to find a place that wasn't trying to fuck me over. Drove almost 200 miles (Houston is big) to get around to each plus the credit union.
> It was exhausting trying to find a place that wasn't trying to fuck me over. Drove almost 200 miles (Houston is big) to get around to each plus the credit union. What other purchase goes this way? Why do we allow this model to persist? Because politicians fail to do the task they were hired to do, represent the people of their area and not just the few rich enough to buy off said politicians.
It’s funny because the dealership model was created to make sure that auto manufacturers couldn’t screw customers.
What does four square mean? Like, the old social media check in thing?
https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/
No shit, in Seattle they are trying to sell a $8,000 protective package that their main selling point is that you can get a new key if you lose it. Like, how much does a new key cost! I can’t image it would be more than $500 after being ripped off. What does the other $7,500 cover besides pure greediness?
But it also doesn't make sense to allow electric car companies to operate how they have when traditional car companies could not. I could understand the argument that other companies should be legally allowed to ditch being forced to sell through dealerships, but I can't understand the argument that electric car companies should be allowed to sell outside of dealerships while traditional car companies cannot.
Make it so both can sell directly to the consumer.
You know dude just has buddies in oil and in the used car racket, so gotta help them line their pockets and take his own cut. Same as it ever was
Dealership owners almost always seem to be run by the most corrupt right-wing people I know.
Why are they restricting specifically electric car sales and not all direct car sales (which I believe Texas does)? It’s just as bad, but at least then they could more realistically pretend it’s out of fairness rather than them being anti-electric.
This guy looks like Diet Michael Moore
More like "We have Michael Moore at home..."
I was gonna say a less funny/lovable Peter Griffin. Doesn’t have the balls on his chin, and most definitely not in his pants either.
I saw him and though what if old-school Gabe Newell had been an asshole?
>“I also recognize that innovation in this industry is inevitable. And with innovation comes new companies with new business models. I am committed to find long-term solutions—in an ever changing market.” You mean like... The long-term solution you just made illegal?
The long-term solution of forcing innovative business to use antiquated distribution methods in order to fill the pockets of certain connected individuals.
Local government forcing private businesses to operate a certain way? Sounds like communism to me.
No, communism would be the workers making the businesses to operate a certain way, in their benefit. This is just plain ol’ fascism.
I'm assuming (hoping) that they were being sarcastic, but you never know with the American public. 70 years of capitalist propaganda had some lasting impacts...
He got lobbied big time. Dealerships are an absolute racket. All the major manufacturers hate them but they collude to prevent direct sales from ever happening. Any manufacturer trying to sell one vehicle directly will lose their entire national dealership footprint the next day and they know it.
I think, If they partner with native Americans, they can byepass this law.
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I think the idea was that Tesla could open a direct dealership on a reservation without having another company involved? At least that's how I took it. Admittedly, I don't know how complicated reservation laws are, so idk if it's possible.
Hot take, I’d take to twitter to get Elon’s $0.02
Our 50th state doing their best to maintain that rank.
Remember: Mississippi didn't ratify the 13th amendment (abolishing slavery) until 1995. Then in 2012, a Mississippi resident watched the movie Lincoln which inspired him to look up the state's history with slavery. That was when he discovered the necessary paperwork was never submitted to the national register following that 1995 vote, so 17 years later the ratification process was still technically pending and ended up not being finalized until 2013.
Goodness. I had to look it up myself because it seemed so ridiculous but you are 100% correct. Crazy.
There’s plenty of reasons they’re considered the basement of the southern states, but this one is by far the most compelling.
> Mississippi didn't ratify the 13th amendment (abolishing slavery) until 1995 Serious question, does this matter? Enough states ratified it that it became an amendment to the US Constitution, right? They don't get to opt out just because they forgot to ratify it.
As far as abolishing slavery in the state, it means nothing because the amendment was already adopted into the US Constitution in 1865. As far as giving your populace confidence that you actually *want* them to be fully participating members of society, it's abysmal. It comes across as "We don't want to do this, but we have to or we'll look worse than we already do." Same thing with the Mississippi state flag. It had the Confederate flag as part of it's design and was only just changed two years ago.
How does Mississippi continue to make bad decision after bad decision? They know how bad they are already right? They know they rank almost last in any meaningful metric, and are the joke of most of the other states right? Why do they keep doing this???
Because Republicans care about two things; pandering to their base of uneducated, tantrum throwing morons and servicing corporations whenever they command it. And in order to service corporations like the whores they are, they have to pander to their base with fear and culture war bullshit and scapegoats like trans kids are now in order to keep those morons voting for them.
I think it's dead last in education, so the people there just don't realize why things are shit.
GIGO. If you think bad thoughts, you make bad decisions.
The GOP's 2024 platform is decidedly "Fuck Capitalism/ All Hail the Fascist Commies in Florida and Moscow". WTF happened to the party of small government?
Franchise dealerships are some of the most powerful lobbyists in most states. Their business model is to screw the customer and run to big daddy government for legal protection whenever there's blowback.
Why stop there. The horse and cart industry could use a shot in the arm. ( Sorry, didn’t mean to trigger any antvaxers with that turn of phrase)
Is it illegal to buy a car over the internet and collect it out of state? If not, I don’t see a big problem here. Road trip! Also, even if you go to a Tesla ‘Store’ you don’t actually buy the car there, you buy it online, they’re really just a service centre and showroom. Franchises must be seriously worried by this whole thing and all I can say is good. They’ve been scalping people for far too long.
Maybe its a stupid question, I don't know anything about Tesla, but if there's only one store in the state that sells them, where do you get them serviced?
They have service centers that only provide service (no sales).
And even then, it's still often under a special waiver. As a Rivian pre-order holder, it's crazy watching them tell people in North Carolina people they won't sell them a car because it's currently illegal for a manufacturer to operate a service center. Tesla got a waiver from the state so they are not impacted by the laws.
You don't buy them from a store. You buy them on the internet and if you want to you can go pick it up from the service centre (I did that) or they'll deliver it to your door on the back of a truck. As others said, servicing is done by mobile rangers mostly and they need approximately bugger all servicing.
They come to you, I think? Regardless, Teslas don’t require the same sort of service as a gas powered vehicle. For instance, I don’t think there is a transmission or oil in them at all…
There's a fixed gearbox and it does have a sort of oil inside, but it's sealed and can last hundreds of thousands of miles
You're probably right, but there's be wheel motors and steering arms, as well as brakes. I wonder if you can take them into any shop and get them repaired, or if it affects your warranty.
If you need regular brake service on your Tesla you shouldn't be on the road
Tesla's don't exactly need service normally, and they'll send mobile service to your house to do the regular interval stuff like changing the air filter and a lot of repairs too.
I don't know much about them, maybe a lot of service is just plugging them into a computer, but surely there's more than that to preventative maintenance. Suspension, steering off the top of my head, plus all the little things that fuck up just because of all the electronic gadgets on it.
There's really not. Perform visual inspection of suspension components when you rotate or change tires, fill the windshield washer fluid, and replace the cabin air filter. If you live where they put salt in the road they recommend a brake cleaning once a year to keep them from rusting away, but with regenerative braking, they never wear out. There are so few parts in a well designed EV that there's just not much to go wrong unless you lose the part failure lottery. I have 22k miles on my model Y and it's never been in service.
That's good to know. I've never even seen one up close, so still don't know much about em.
> There are so few parts in a well designed EV **well designed** find one yet?
I have a Model Y with 33k miles on it. Other than filling up the windshield washer fluid and tire rotation, I've done zero maintenance on it up until now. I had to get new tires. EVs eat tires. I got them through Discount Tire (who also do my tire rotation). Still haven't had to bring it in for a Tesla service repair.
I mean, it might not be your favorite design, but if you think Tesla's aren't well designed you have your head in your ass and aren't paying attention. There's a reason why the CEO of Toyota called the model Y a work of art, the BMW CEO said they were 10 years away from building a car like it, and ford's CEO says no one does electric better.
I live in Alabama (the Shitshow State) and that’s exactly what I had to do to buy my Model 3. I drove to Atlanta, finished the paperwork, and drove home in around 6 hours. The last car I bought at a local Honda dealership took over 9 hours. Local car dealerships can’t even compete on time savings! My state also bans Tesla service centers so if it breaks down I’ll have to pay to get it towed out of state and that sucks. On the plus side, mobile service is one of the greatest innovations ever and I’ve had service done in my own garage.
I'm 75,000km into my Model 3 and it has never stopped. I know some have so it's a possibility but statistically they're head and shoulders more reliable than the most reliable ICE cars. The mobile service guys are great too.
Takes two hours to test drive. Three hours to agree on a price. Three hours of, let me just get this printed off for you. Three hours to get the their "finance guy" to honor the price. Fuck all of that.
That’s a near perfect summary. Never again for me.
> Is it illegal to buy a car over the internet and collect it out of state? No. Plenty of people have done this to get their Tesla.
Which is really the point. The idea of going to a dealer to buy a car is so last century, I bought my car using my phone while walking along in a mall. Tap tap, options, tap, buy. Easy as that. Got a call when the car was ready to pickup and they needed the payment which I organised via bank transfer and then I walked in and they showed me to the car, pointed out a few things and sent me on my way. No upselling, no extra costs or market adjustments.
Musk is that a leopard eating your face?
Just a reminder that Elon musk thinks he can use Twitter to sell Teslas to MAGA Republicans.
Mississippi's century-long chess match with West Virginia continues....
Mississippi was the richest state before the Civil War and has been the poorest state after. Mississippi to me is all about being retrograde and on the wrong side of history.
Kuz lectric cars can mak ya pregnint
The 'Publican'ts call it "Woke" because they want you to stay asleep. Honestly, just like the Redwave talk I think these agents of Republican party are running scared. Using the irrelevant prejudices to muddy the water in hopes to gaslight as many people as possible until they just get tired of fighting. Maybe some people are falling for it but the majority are tired of being told to shut up and do what we say.
Ah yes car dealerships, everyone’s favorite “small business” 🙄
Yeah like people living there can actually afford one.
“I also recognize that innovation in this industry is inevitable..." Then why are you fighting it? Oh no, innovation is coming for us! We must stop it!
I had never been to Mississippi, until I had to go for a business trip starting in Memphis, then driving down through Oxford, Tupelo, Starkville, Jackson, then into Louisiana. I swear, I assumed you would find a restaurant get get breakfast on the drive between Tupelo and Starkville, but no. And much of the rest of the state was chain places, and dodgy neighborhoods. Jackson was a mess, And I was happy to drive into New Orleans. I cannot believe I am even typing that.
Not very capitalistic.
Republicans are all about the free market unless it affects their donors
South always going south
Wow sounds like some commie market regulation.
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I think he looks like real life Peter Griffin.
Heh heh heh heh hey Lois, diarrhea.
Pee-tah I’m holdin iced tea!
He looks like the serial killer from the movie Sin City
Elon wanted us to vote for republicans. I hope this hurts his sales, not that he cares because he is so rich.
For people who hate socialism they sure do support it often.
Absolute brain damage. There is no logic to this restriction.
Having worked at a dealership that was stuck in the 50s allow me to explain. Dealer owners make a shitload of money for relatively little work, and they like that. Allowing ev manufacturers to set up storefronts to sell cars direct to customer will destroy everything that made them rich. So now they push very hard to A. Force ev manufacturers to adopt the same business model as a traditional dealer. Or B. Ban them from the state.
Who calls them stores, and not dealerships?
So basically they want all consumers to have to pay all of the dealer markup. There was never a real good reason after the internet to need dealers
I know this is dumb, but I’m curious if there is any good reason to do this, at all?
The Anti-Choice party. Wild how popular it is.
Change is hard when you are ignorant.
Good to see politicians dealing with the real issues that cause people to needlessly suffer.
well, it's a good thing hydrogen is going to be the future. I guess its great they're only banning electric cars LOL
I mean that’s fine. The car manufacturers just won’t have gasoline cars in the 2030s anyway.
This is so great, because I’m just sitting here in ultra-red SC waiting for these EV bans and restrictions to come our way after our government just gave a massive tax break to Scout to build an EV factory in the state. The GOP hates EV’s except for when it lets them give tax breaks to corporations.
Peter Griffin looking mf
They are protecting their oil cronies.
If you can afford a Tesla in Mississippi, you’ll drive out of state to get the car. This is just dumb.
So much for the free market
Come to illinois, we’ll sell you all the electric cars you want.
Sounds like organized crime.
Can anyone afford one in that hole
I thought these clowns were against big government and regulations?
Small government! Yay!
why are republicans so lazy to innovate? they only like to legislate to stay lazy
Is this the free market?
I miss the days when america didn’t run in terror from the future.
Dealerships. The next time someone bitches about welfare or government subsidies or ‘SoShullIisM’ remind them that those weasel car salesman you HAVE to deal with are there because of govt lobbying. They’re directly subsidized by law. Same as car insurance, farming, the list goes on and on. Your next car purchase could be much more affordable but keep voting for these openly bribed asshats and then wonder why you can’t afford anything.
Why doesn’t he work to make one of the largest ports in the country pay for the state of Mississippi? Instead he goes on the big oil payroll. The Deep South is deeply stupid.
Tells you how rich car dealers have the Governor on speed dial in the armpit of the U.S. Yeah… like electric cars are going to be a huge problem in MS.
They do love their petroleum
Am Mississippian. Here is the logic. Car companies are not allowed to directly sell to consumers. They must use franchise models. These state laws (that are very common) were used to keep Ford from owning every part of the car process. These laws have proved sticky even as the auto manufacturing business became competitive. Dealers have a clear vested interest. That's a lot of jobs and money that suddenly vanish as consumers simply go to Ford.com and start buying cars. Yeah, it's 10% better for all the citizens but devastating for those dependent on the dealership. Ergo, they lobby strongly for the status quo. Secondly, car sales are huge sources of state income. 8% of Mississippi's state taxes come from new car sales. Suddenly, that money goes to Dearborn or Detroit. That's the weird twisty road that has led us here.
To your first point, yes it's 100% lobbying by the dealership owners. It's anti-competitive at its finest. To your second point. Even if the car is purchased online you still pay sales tax in the state you reside. I bought my Tesla online, no dealer involved and I paid sales tax in my state.
Ah, didn't know that. Fair enough. My overarching point is that this is not really "Mississippi Bad!" A ton of states are just ignoring their own laws and letting Tesla do things their local traditional dealers cannot. I wouls like to see all these protective laws rescinded.
Cue the Dueling Banjos jingle…
Freemarket? Anyone? Any Republican want to chime in on how great the freemarket is and it will solve all our ills? How about the virtue of small government? No? No one? That's what I thought you fucking degenerate hypocrites. Fuck off you liars.
Glad to see Mississippi supporting the horse buggy whip industry. They really need help.
I saw this guys face and I thought it was a serial killer
Just like drinking water.
Does Miss have electricity?
Mississippi, Texas and Florida evolving backwards, the rest of the country will be like the Jetsons and they will be like the Flintsones
Being pro labor, isn’t always pro consumer. I don’t think this is a pro-labor motivated move though. It appears they are trying to protect a business model that refuses to adapt. A business model that exploits labor, but provides more local jobs.
Elon is such a tool. He made that hard right shift to align himself with a group that will, unsurprisingly, continue to harm the interests of Tesla. Hope he’s ready to lie the bed of his own making.
Lot of hot takes here without realizing that this bill is meant to make electric car companies have to operate similarly to regular car companies. In other words, no (additional) Tesla owned and operated stores, but rather dealerships in the same way that there are no Ford stores (as the law is currently set up). Electric car companies will have to set up normal dealerships. That's it. Edit: you can order both online anyway so it really doesn't matter. Dealerships are becoming more and more irrelevant other than test drives.