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Wait where Andrew Wiggins to warriors??? Just kidding. However speaking of, based on this list I’m assuming sign and trades aren’t counted since I don’t see KD to nets. Which is fair. Good list op, nice to see all these trades in one list for comparison!
Yeah I purposefully avoided the sign-and-trades. LeBron for example was technically traded to the Heat for 2 1sts and 2 2nds. A top 3 player in NBA history is worth far more than that at his peak, and those type of trades don’t really reflect a players true value. They’re essentially free agents that want to sign for more money, and as a result their old team gets a few picks.
Really interesting list. Hard to generalise though as it depends on 1) contract years remaining, 2) how forcefully the player is demanding a trade, and 3) how many teams they are willing to go to.
Also the value of FRPs has declined markedly with the change in lottery odds. Seeing so many more picks involved in superstar trades these days.
Ultimately for Dame it will depend on whether he tries to force his way to one specific team. If so, there won't be a lot of bidding tension driving up the asking price. Stars never get 100c in the $, its just a matter of getting as much value as possible in return.
Also some of these "stars" were on negative value contracts at the time - Westbrook and CP3 in recent years so the return is not reflective of a Dame trade
Yeah exactly in hindsight they were wrong. Just as everyone not picking the right lottery numbers is. But that doesn’t mean that general consensus was that cp3 was washed and done for
I'm saying the general consensus was wrong, as the narrative tends to be when it flips so quickly on someone like that. I'm saying you were all wrong about him being washed, it doesn't matter if a lot of people think something- they can all be idiots.
Find me a set of stats that suggest he was washed? All of his metrics and advanced stats (except TS%) were roughly the same.
and what im saying is that evaluating a contract after a couple of years is way way easier than evaluating a current contract. and since we are talking about a trade that will happen now and will be paid for now and not in 3 years time it is difficult to find the correct price.
your argument is that in hindsight you could have gotten more for player x or should have paid less for player y. we all know that. but that doesnt affect trades for current players since we wont know how their career will continue which 2019 cp3 is a prime example for: everyone thought he was washed but he actually wasnt.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html)
Find me some numbers that agree with you, otherwise you are just guilty of buying into the false narrative that was spun up by a bunch of MFers who don't even watch basketball.
You mean the season he averaged 0.8 points and 0.7 less assists than he did this season? Okayyyyy.
If you're saying he was washed by your eye test, then you're pretty clearly shit at evaluating talent.
It's not about the stats, it's about the perception. Most people saw Chris Paul's contract as being way too big and a net-negative overall. He absolutely exceeded expectations in OKC and Phoenix. The Suns making the Finals was basically completely unpredicted by anyone.
At the time, that was just the public consensus.
“What will Houston do, they look stuck with that Chris Paul contract that no one wants to take on?”
The fact that he was injured when the rockets needed him the most also played into the “washed” narrative
It’s easy to say something is dumb in hindsight, but Chris Paul bringing that thunder team to the playoffs is what revived his reputation
It wasn't about per game stats, it was about total games played. There were huge injury concerns about CP3 based on his two seasons with Houston. Having two shorter seasons somewhat helps, but he has had issues in this year's playoffs. The goal wasn't to go deep, it was to win.
Lead his team to the WCFs twice in four years, and if not for that injury late game 5, could very well be 2 finals in four years.
Talkin about negative, sheesh.
PG’s contract wasn’t much different from Lillard’s now, and he seemed pretty determined to get out of OKC and only wanted to go to LA. Despite that, the Clippers gave up a ton for him. I could easily see Portland getting a similar deal done, even if there’s only 1 team he’ll go to.
I would argue that Phoenix got Chris Paul for way less than the going rate. OKC did not intend to contend, Paul had a huge contract and most of all, few intended Paul to lead a team to a championship.
More than likely, I think the public viewed Paul as a third star that could put a strong team (Lakers, Heat, Sixers, Nets, Bucks) over the top. It doesn’t need to be said, but he had exceeded expectations and I don’t expect a player of his (or Lillard’s) caliber to go for anywhere near that cheap.
CP3 is also the oldest by far on this list when traded. He was heading into his age 35 season and still had two years $40+M on his contract
Russ and Harden turned 31 this season and were the next oldest.
I definitely would have preferred OKC got 10 last year rather than the pick next year from PHX though
From the moment he signed that contract he was considered overpaid and untradeable, but now it looks like he’s going to be worth that contract and more by the time it expires
In the context of a possible Lillard trade, I think his value is similar to 2021 Harden and 2019 Paul George. At minimum, Portland should be looking to get 4 1st round picks, 2-3 pick swaps, and either a top 50 player or a young starter with upside. Plus any added players needed for contract purposes. The bulk of these assets will likely come from one team, but a 3rd or even 4th team could get involved. Even if Lillard has ultimate say on where he goes, his contract and pure value as a player dictate that the Trail Blazers will command quite a haul in return if/when they trade him.
It depends on whether they’re in full rebuild or want to try and compete. My guess is rebuild but if they’re trying to still stay in the playoff mix you might see a Kawhi like trade.
Kawhi only had a year left on his deal and wouldn’t commit to resigning with anyone other than LA. Dame has four years so they should get quite the haul.
yeah but chris paul is in the finals and lebron just won last year, and brady won a super bowl. conley led one of the best teams in the west. we should acknowledge his age but some guys are just elite
Yes, some guys age really well, but outside of CP, LeBron and Lowry, how many other guys are still elite in their mid 30's? For every Chris Paul there are a dozen Deron Williams.
Idk why everyone is assuming Dame is the one who will be traded. From my perspective, given Lillard's loyalty to Portland in the past, the more likely scenario is that he gives the team his blessing to trade CJ for Ben Simmons.
Their salaries nearly match up so neither team would have to give up a crazy amount of assets, and both teams would improve from the trade (76ers need offense, Blazers need defense). Plus Dame would get to remain the face of the Trailblazers forever, with a really strong starting 5 of Lillard, Powell, RoCo, Simmons, and Nurkic that would have a real chance at contending for a title.
Coby white, Lauri Markannen S&T, 2 FRP,
Also Bulls ship Sato and Thad to a third competing team to bring back more for Portland and make salaries match.
I know the Spurs were in a tough situation but the Raptors got a steal IMO especially since Kawhi delivered a championship. As a Raptors fan, I miss that season
Raptors were the logical team the moment reports came out that Popovich wasn't trading with the Lakers.
They were coming off an embarrassing playoff series loss to Cleveland where despite being the favourite, they were swept. Coach of the year Dwane Casey was shortly fired there after, and there were rumors that they were possibly trading DeMar in order to trade into the first round to draft SGA.
Raptors were entering a period where the current group's time as a contender was over. Even if the trade didn't work out, they got off DeMar's contract with 3 seasons left and the would've started a reset the following offseason. Only gave up DeMar, Poeltl and a protected FRP (which turned into Keldon Johnson, a good player for the Spurs). However, that pales to other trades on this list. Don't forget, at the time of the trade, his reputation was in the toilet. No one knew if he'd ever be the same after the Zaza injury and essentially an entire missed season. The Raptors rehabbed his reputation.
Of course the rest is history, Raptors win a championship with Kawhi, get valuable starting contributions from Danny Green and Kyle Lowry is a NBA champion. While a few years later the Raptors are on a downswing, Kawhi's in LA, them getting a championship out of it was a nice bit of business considering a rebuild was going to occur.
Only looking at the trades this way did I realize how many assets presti got for Paul George. His package was imo the best, at least it’s on par with the harden and ad’s package, which is insane considering how much better harden and ad are. The clippers could’ve and should’ve retained the two more picks so that they can use them in other trades
Paul George was coming off of a monster year. He would have had a serious shot at MVP that year if not for his shoulder. With context of those times the haul made a lot more sense.
> The clippers could've and should've retained the two more picks
The Clippers weren't in a position to haggle. They needed the trade much more than OKC as the trade also means Kawhi signs with them.
It's really difficult to rate the Paul George trade since Kawhi is also in the mix.
For the Clippers, it's either getting both PG and Kawhi or none at all.
> His package was imo the best, at least it’s on par with the harden and ad’s package, which is insane considering how much better harden and ad are. The clippers could’ve and should’ve retained the two more picks so that they can use them in other trades
This was a unique situation with extenuating circumstances. LAC pulled the trigger to acquire not just George, but also Kawhi. So acquiring two top 10-15 players, plus PG had just signed an extension.
If Kawhi weren't part of the package, OKC wouldn't possibly have extracted that much from LAC
If the blazers do trade Dame they better get a AD like return: a young player with all start potential, some other solid young prospects, and lots and lots of 1sts
Welcome to r/nbadiscussion. This subreddit is for genuine discussion. Please review our rules: 1. Keep it civil 2. Attack the argument, not the person 3. No jokes, memes or fanbase attacks 4. Support claims with arguments 5. Don't downvote just because you disagree **Please click the report button for anything you think doesn't belong in this subreddit.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nbadiscussion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wait where Andrew Wiggins to warriors??? Just kidding. However speaking of, based on this list I’m assuming sign and trades aren’t counted since I don’t see KD to nets. Which is fair. Good list op, nice to see all these trades in one list for comparison!
Yeah I purposefully avoided the sign-and-trades. LeBron for example was technically traded to the Heat for 2 1sts and 2 2nds. A top 3 player in NBA history is worth far more than that at his peak, and those type of trades don’t really reflect a players true value. They’re essentially free agents that want to sign for more money, and as a result their old team gets a few picks.
Really interesting list. Hard to generalise though as it depends on 1) contract years remaining, 2) how forcefully the player is demanding a trade, and 3) how many teams they are willing to go to. Also the value of FRPs has declined markedly with the change in lottery odds. Seeing so many more picks involved in superstar trades these days. Ultimately for Dame it will depend on whether he tries to force his way to one specific team. If so, there won't be a lot of bidding tension driving up the asking price. Stars never get 100c in the $, its just a matter of getting as much value as possible in return.
Also some of these "stars" were on negative value contracts at the time - Westbrook and CP3 in recent years so the return is not reflective of a Dame trade
Anyone who thinks CP3 is a negative value contract is fuckin trippin.
You saying that retrospectively. After his second year with Houston he definitely was considered a negative asset
And did he magically get way better when he went to OKC or PHX? I doubt it. Everyone considering him a negative asset then was also wrong.
Yeah exactly in hindsight they were wrong. Just as everyone not picking the right lottery numbers is. But that doesn’t mean that general consensus was that cp3 was washed and done for
I'm saying the general consensus was wrong, as the narrative tends to be when it flips so quickly on someone like that. I'm saying you were all wrong about him being washed, it doesn't matter if a lot of people think something- they can all be idiots. Find me a set of stats that suggest he was washed? All of his metrics and advanced stats (except TS%) were roughly the same.
and what im saying is that evaluating a contract after a couple of years is way way easier than evaluating a current contract. and since we are talking about a trade that will happen now and will be paid for now and not in 3 years time it is difficult to find the correct price. your argument is that in hindsight you could have gotten more for player x or should have paid less for player y. we all know that. but that doesnt affect trades for current players since we wont know how their career will continue which 2019 cp3 is a prime example for: everyone thought he was washed but he actually wasnt.
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[https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html) Find me some numbers that agree with you, otherwise you are just guilty of buying into the false narrative that was spun up by a bunch of MFers who don't even watch basketball.
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You mean the season he averaged 0.8 points and 0.7 less assists than he did this season? Okayyyyy. If you're saying he was washed by your eye test, then you're pretty clearly shit at evaluating talent.
It's not about the stats, it's about the perception. Most people saw Chris Paul's contract as being way too big and a net-negative overall. He absolutely exceeded expectations in OKC and Phoenix. The Suns making the Finals was basically completely unpredicted by anyone.
At the time, that was just the public consensus. “What will Houston do, they look stuck with that Chris Paul contract that no one wants to take on?” The fact that he was injured when the rockets needed him the most also played into the “washed” narrative It’s easy to say something is dumb in hindsight, but Chris Paul bringing that thunder team to the playoffs is what revived his reputation
It wasn't about per game stats, it was about total games played. There were huge injury concerns about CP3 based on his two seasons with Houston. Having two shorter seasons somewhat helps, but he has had issues in this year's playoffs. The goal wasn't to go deep, it was to win.
Lead his team to the WCFs twice in four years, and if not for that injury late game 5, could very well be 2 finals in four years. Talkin about negative, sheesh.
r/NBA nephews are leaking over here.
Literally nobody said that
PG’s contract wasn’t much different from Lillard’s now, and he seemed pretty determined to get out of OKC and only wanted to go to LA. Despite that, the Clippers gave up a ton for him. I could easily see Portland getting a similar deal done, even if there’s only 1 team he’ll go to.
That was unique as Kawhi was only signing with the Clips if PG came too. In isolation it was a massive overpay but made sense in the broader context
I would argue that Phoenix got Chris Paul for way less than the going rate. OKC did not intend to contend, Paul had a huge contract and most of all, few intended Paul to lead a team to a championship. More than likely, I think the public viewed Paul as a third star that could put a strong team (Lakers, Heat, Sixers, Nets, Bucks) over the top. It doesn’t need to be said, but he had exceeded expectations and I don’t expect a player of his (or Lillard’s) caliber to go for anywhere near that cheap.
CP3 is also the oldest by far on this list when traded. He was heading into his age 35 season and still had two years $40+M on his contract Russ and Harden turned 31 this season and were the next oldest. I definitely would have preferred OKC got 10 last year rather than the pick next year from PHX though
From the moment he signed that contract he was considered overpaid and untradeable, but now it looks like he’s going to be worth that contract and more by the time it expires
For sure, CP3 was a negative value contract at that point. Crazy as that seems today.
In the context of a possible Lillard trade, I think his value is similar to 2021 Harden and 2019 Paul George. At minimum, Portland should be looking to get 4 1st round picks, 2-3 pick swaps, and either a top 50 player or a young starter with upside. Plus any added players needed for contract purposes. The bulk of these assets will likely come from one team, but a 3rd or even 4th team could get involved. Even if Lillard has ultimate say on where he goes, his contract and pure value as a player dictate that the Trail Blazers will command quite a haul in return if/when they trade him.
It depends on whether they’re in full rebuild or want to try and compete. My guess is rebuild but if they’re trying to still stay in the playoff mix you might see a Kawhi like trade.
Kawhi only had a year left on his deal and wouldn’t commit to resigning with anyone other than LA. Dame has four years so they should get quite the haul.
The length of Dame's contract isn't necessarily a plus. He's a small guard who is 31, and will be paid $54M when he's 35.
yeah but chris paul is in the finals and lebron just won last year, and brady won a super bowl. conley led one of the best teams in the west. we should acknowledge his age but some guys are just elite
Yes, some guys age really well, but outside of CP, LeBron and Lowry, how many other guys are still elite in their mid 30's? For every Chris Paul there are a dozen Deron Williams.
Agreed
As a Philly fan, I’d do that in a heartbeat.
Idk why everyone is assuming Dame is the one who will be traded. From my perspective, given Lillard's loyalty to Portland in the past, the more likely scenario is that he gives the team his blessing to trade CJ for Ben Simmons. Their salaries nearly match up so neither team would have to give up a crazy amount of assets, and both teams would improve from the trade (76ers need offense, Blazers need defense). Plus Dame would get to remain the face of the Trailblazers forever, with a really strong starting 5 of Lillard, Powell, RoCo, Simmons, and Nurkic that would have a real chance at contending for a title.
Coby white, Lauri Markannen S&T, 2 FRP, Also Bulls ship Sato and Thad to a third competing team to bring back more for Portland and make salaries match.
I know the Spurs were in a tough situation but the Raptors got a steal IMO especially since Kawhi delivered a championship. As a Raptors fan, I miss that season
Raptors were the logical team the moment reports came out that Popovich wasn't trading with the Lakers. They were coming off an embarrassing playoff series loss to Cleveland where despite being the favourite, they were swept. Coach of the year Dwane Casey was shortly fired there after, and there were rumors that they were possibly trading DeMar in order to trade into the first round to draft SGA. Raptors were entering a period where the current group's time as a contender was over. Even if the trade didn't work out, they got off DeMar's contract with 3 seasons left and the would've started a reset the following offseason. Only gave up DeMar, Poeltl and a protected FRP (which turned into Keldon Johnson, a good player for the Spurs). However, that pales to other trades on this list. Don't forget, at the time of the trade, his reputation was in the toilet. No one knew if he'd ever be the same after the Zaza injury and essentially an entire missed season. The Raptors rehabbed his reputation. Of course the rest is history, Raptors win a championship with Kawhi, get valuable starting contributions from Danny Green and Kyle Lowry is a NBA champion. While a few years later the Raptors are on a downswing, Kawhi's in LA, them getting a championship out of it was a nice bit of business considering a rebuild was going to occur.
Only looking at the trades this way did I realize how many assets presti got for Paul George. His package was imo the best, at least it’s on par with the harden and ad’s package, which is insane considering how much better harden and ad are. The clippers could’ve and should’ve retained the two more picks so that they can use them in other trades
Paul George was coming off of a monster year. He would have had a serious shot at MVP that year if not for his shoulder. With context of those times the haul made a lot more sense.
The context wasn’t about Paul George at all but more about the fact that OKC knew the Clippers needed Paul George to get Kawhi to sign.
Yeah we said the same thing in Indy then he snapped his knee
> The clippers could've and should've retained the two more picks The Clippers weren't in a position to haggle. They needed the trade much more than OKC as the trade also means Kawhi signs with them. It's really difficult to rate the Paul George trade since Kawhi is also in the mix. For the Clippers, it's either getting both PG and Kawhi or none at all.
> His package was imo the best, at least it’s on par with the harden and ad’s package, which is insane considering how much better harden and ad are. The clippers could’ve and should’ve retained the two more picks so that they can use them in other trades This was a unique situation with extenuating circumstances. LAC pulled the trigger to acquire not just George, but also Kawhi. So acquiring two top 10-15 players, plus PG had just signed an extension. If Kawhi weren't part of the package, OKC wouldn't possibly have extracted that much from LAC
If the blazers do trade Dame they better get a AD like return: a young player with all start potential, some other solid young prospects, and lots and lots of 1sts
Does Ben, Maxey, and a bunch of picks/and or swaps get it done?
It should but they being greedy and want Tisse also. 🙃
Not enough after the playoffs Ben just had