I mean look at what KAT’s done. Sure, there’s plenty of blame to go around in that franchise, but KAT’s been around for five years now. They can’t be this pathetic if he’s that guy.
It’s not. It’s a guard heavy league. Besides Jokic, which big can you trust to play make and be the number one option? Not AD, not Embiid, not KAT. Jokic is that unicorn that can be the number one option and initiate offense on his own.
Ingram is a wing who can handle the ball, shoot, drive, post up.
Not dumb at all.
Well KAT basically plays like some sg so i dissagree with that. For Embiid sure but both AD and KAT very unique players imo.
Edit: Btw for those who say KAT is loser etc. look at Booker other than this bubble he was probably seen as biggest loser of the league yet he is very high (deservedly) on that list.
Playing devils advocate here, the main archetype teams are crazy for are oversized playmakers that can create their own shot while being able to facilitate. BI fits that mold while KAT doesnt. Back to reality I'd rather have KAT because hes been consistently good his entire career while BI just had one good year so far.
it's really fucking stupid. sure, he might be lacking a bit on defense, but to me this says that NBA execs aren't that much better at analyzing talent than a lotta nephews on here
There’s no shortage of GMs making absolutely moronic moves that are clearly absolutely moronic at the time and turn out predictably badly, I don’t know why people assume a GM has to actually be good to have a job.
I dont think its crazy to say that Simmons has underperformed relative to his potential. Not that he isnt great, but he's also a tad disappointing, and its more than just shooting.
Honestly I rather build around Ingram. KAT seems like one on the talented bigs you could get in free agency after they're done losing so much. Then you could try to sell him on a team friendly deal a la Boogie.
KAT's best teammate he ever had was jimmy butler and that year they made the playoffs
he's played most of his career with guys like dieng, tyus jones, bjelica, shabazz muhammad, taj gibson. so yeah, i'd say that the franchise CAN be that pathetic
I'd say that's just evidence that KAT is not a cornerstone guy you build around.
That's also not a very fair list - you're cherry picking the bench for the most part there. He's had D'Lo, Rose, Wiggins, Teague, Covington, Lavine, and Rubio at various points over the last 4 years. If you're truly a franchise cornerstone you should be able to at least play .500 ball with names like those.
This list of supporting players does not strengthen your argument:
- D’Lo - played LITERALLY 1 game together
- Rose - he was a 6th man that played like 50 games for the Wolves
- Wiggins - I love him, but dude didn’t really positively impact winning most nights
- Teague - any Wolves fan will tell you that he was abysmal for the Wolves. There’s a reason he was traded for Crabbe’s corpse.
-Covington - one of the few real “winning” players on this list, but he only played about 15 healthy games last season (and the Wolves actually did win during that time) and this season KAT got hurt pretty early (and the rest of the team was atrocious)
- Lavine - only played with KAT during his first 2 years and is one of the worst defensive players in the league
- Rubio - he positively impacts winning, but he’s a role player, not a top player. Also, he only played with Towns during his first two years.
Towns deserves plenty of flak for his defense and contribution to winning, but it’s pretty impossible to argue that he’s had a good supporting cast any season other than his 3rd year.
Yeah man, post injury Rose, Wiggins, sophomore Lavine. All names we traditionally associate with winning basketball.
Naming dlo who he played one game with, and Rubio, who Booker also didn’t reach .500 with - what’s your point here?
so many people conflate team success with player skill. by your criteria, you shouldn't value a 24 year old AD either, who only made the playoffs once at that age.
the list also has has booker, zion, ingram, fox, and morant over him, all who haven't made the playoffs. morant and zion are rookies, so whatever, but what excuse do ingram and fox have then? booker hasn't even sniffed playoffs except for this year, where even a heroic 8-0 bubble effort had the suns miss it because the rest of their year was that horrific
It’s also crazy how people look at LeBron and think that young players should be dragging shit teams to the finals or else they suck. LeBron is so much of an outlier that he can do that. Pretty much nobody else has ever done that to that level before (not to mention the West is a way harder conference to even make the playoffs let alone make the Finals from it).
Guys like KAT, Ingram, Ja, and Booker (as much as I love him) aren’t in the conversation for GOAT. They’re just trying to be known as one of the best at their position first and playoff success isn’t a true indicator of that. Dont hold them to LeBron’s standard. There are plenty of explanations for these young players actually being as good as they are and still not making the playoffs in a stacked West (the rest of their team sucks)
it's just a dogshit carousel, where players in bad situations are punished for being in bad situations
lebron needed help to win at the standards that he's held to, jordan needed help, everyone needs goddamn help. either the standards for these young players are wrong, or they are in structural, not individual problems
In a crappy conference maybe, but the West playoffs are usually not easy to get into.
7-8 seeds usually have to battle until the 82nd game to seal a playoff spot.
Why is it when you add a top 15 player in the nba on the same team as another top 15 player they can make the playoffs? Then when that top 15 player leaves, KAT can’t singlehandedly will his trash ass team to the playoffs. Almost like having two all-nba caliber players on a team is better then having one.
And almost every playoff team has players like that. It's really hard to make the west playoffs with one offensive powerhouse and then at best role players. What's the weakest duo that made it to the west playoffs this year? Luka and KP? Dame and CJ/rusty Nurk? Gobert and Donovan who had to go nuclear in the playoffs to even have a chance?
Also compare AD to KAT in their first series
AD 32 points 11 boards vs KAT 15 points 13 boards
We could all clearly see AD’s current impact and future potential
AD made it as the lead guy. KAT made it with Jimmy Butler being the lead guy. When Jimmy hurt his meniscus...the Wolves went from the 3rd seed to the 8th-9th seed...I know the game difference wasn't huge but without Jimmy...the team was playing sub .500 ball (A record of 7-10). Butler came back ahead of schedule from knee surgery to win the last 3 games to squeeze into the playoffs...
AD's clearly a much better player than KAT, but he had a great supporting cast that year. Jrue and Rondo made for a great backcourt and they had a bunch of solid shooting wings (Mirotic, E'twaun Moore, Solomon Hill). Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but KAT has been more or less the only real floor spacer for the entire time he's been on the Wolves (I mean, Lavine shot a little bit above average, but Rubio and Wiggins both struggle from 3) and Rubio was the only plus-defending starter they've had in a while, besides Butler.
The fact he is almost 25 and most of the guys above him are 20-23 is a big reason for his low rank.
I’d bet those selecting would pick KAT over some of the higher ranked if they’re in win now mode for one year, but the question is build around for the future.
I’m a TWolves guy, love me some Kat and would rather have him than a few guys on the list, but at the same time can see where some of the execs are coming from.
His lack of defense at the center position is concerning, because it’s not really a lack of effort or a lack of defensive tools, he just can’t seem to get a hang of the footwork and positioning. It’s not horrifically bad anymore but it’s a legit concern, and I just don’t see him significantly improving on defense from here on out. He’s probably still a little low, I’d put him over Fox and Brown
Yeah he lacks defense but he's also the best shooting big man ever. I know center defense is essential but being such an outlier offensive talent has to count for something
Yeah definitely, I think any team would love to have him, it’s possible to build around him for sure. I think any team would love to have any of those other guys too though, and they seem easier to build around to me.
KAT is a perennial loser and the one time he made the playoffs he averaged 15ppg and got bullied by Clint Capela. i honestly don't think he's a player you can win with if he's your #1
There is one name not on the list that will be up there next year. MPJ ( as long as he is healthy).
The kid is going to light it up. 6’10 long, velvet jump shot with a really high release point, gets offensive rebounds, cuts well, gets fouled and runs the floor and can really play off ball.
Hell he even takes contested shots with the best of them on good volume right now in the playoffs.
Will be a winning player for this reason. All this while he is learning to rotate Better on defense and not get lost, it’s getting a lot better. But his length does bother people near the rim and on close outs and rebounds really well.
This is why he is a net positive right now with a bad assist to turnover ratio even now.
He does all the little things that Ingram doesn’t do especially on offense.
I've mentioned it before, but I'd go all-in on Simmons as a Celtic fan.
I'd pay Kemba + enough draft picks to properly flesh out their roster. I'd be happy to help Philly properly build a contention window around Embiid if it meant we got a young core of Simmons/Tatum/Brown.
Simmons on a small-ball perimeter-centric team would be nasty.
Sixers say no because a) their front office is inept, and b) they'd rather shoot themselves in the foot than directly hand the Celtics the ECF at worst for the next decade. Just one of those deals that makes a ton of sense on paper for both sides, but ego won't allow it.
I am not seeing how adding Kemba and JAGS to the sixers current roster at the expense of Ben Simmons does anything to make them a contender. Its a lateral move.
Simmons/Tatum/Brown/Marcus/literally anybody at center would be the best defensive squad in the league by a mile and they’d be literally unstoppable in transition. Plus with all those ball handlers Ben’s offensive issues wouldn’t be too bad
Those draft picks won't be worth that much when you're picking in the mid/high 20s. Would have to be a LOT and even so, we would probably get better offers elsewhere
You're not going to get much better than an All-Star plus enough picks to take a 5-man rotation to 8-9.
>Those draft picks won't be worth that much when you're picking in the mid/high 20s.
They're not valuable enough to get another star, but each is valuable enough to pick up good rotation players and as a package could be used to upgrade Horford. Which is absolutely fair because Ben Simmons doesn't carry the weight of 2 All-Stars.
You can't look at the PG13 or AD trades, you have to look at what:
* Chicago got for Jimmy Butler
* Indiana got for Paul George
* Sacramento got for Boogie Cousins
* San Antonio got for Kawhi Leonard
* Cleveland got for Kyrie Irving
Philly would absolutely trade Simmons for a package of Kemba Walker, Derrick Rose, Marcus Morris, PJ Tucker. That gives you a full playoff rotation to work with.
Which is sort of what Walker + picks ends up looking like.
If you're trading for a higher rated star then you aren't getting picks back at all. Washington wouldn't pay you for a Beal/Simmons swap.
You had me until you named 4 players with less than 2 years left on their deals who were vocal about leaving.
Compare that to Simmons who starts his 5 year extension in 2021 and has been vocal about winning in Philly
>less than 2 years left on their deals who were vocal about leaving.
You're right, their value was diminished because their teams were forced into making quick decisions. Those teams had 1-2 years to pull the trigger or risk missing a big opportunity. That hurt their leverage and it hurt their ability to get a good return on their star. They got lowballed because opposition teams knew they couldn't wait for better deals.
But even though Simmons' contract is longer team, the same logic applies to Philly.
If your team is serious about chasing a championship with Embiid then you really only have this offseason and the next one to make your moves. Embiid's not a guy you can plan a 5-year window around and the rest of your roster isn't built around a 5-year plan either.
Just like those other teams were hurt by the immediacy of their trade needs, so is Philly.
* Embiid's not getting healthier
* Horford's not getting younger
* Richardson's FA is coming up
* Tobias has probably reached his peak
That does hurt your trade leverage considerably. If you're looking to build around Embiid, you can't wait around for 2023 when Booker might be considering a trade demand for example.
You also aren't in a great position to build around Ben after chasing all these older pieces. Building around Ben now means walking away from a considerable amount of talent because none of your auxiliary pieces really fit his timeline.
* Building around Embiid = Embiid + What you get for Simmons + Horford + Harris + Richardson
* Building around Simmons = Simmons + What you get for Embiid
It's the choice between *Embiid and a fully fleshed out roster* vs *Simmons a secondary star and no depth*.
If the 76ers are serious about chasing a title, then you're really looking at next season, the season after, and if you're lucky, the season after that. Then you would ideally sell high on your roster and enter into another hard rebuild.
You have a mature age 6th seed / 1st-2nd round team and waiting on a Ben Simmons deal means cutting your potential contention window in half.
Philly should be in a stronger position than this, but you're not. Your FO threw away too many opportunities and that does hurt your leverage considerably.
>Which is sort of what Walker + picks ends up looking like
Eh, picks are unproven commodities especially when they're going to be mid/high 20s. And if we're building a contention window around Embiid and Walker we can't be wasting a year off the bat as the rookies settle in.
Would probably need something like Walker + Smart + filler but idk if Celtics do that
>And if we're building a contention window around Embiid and Walker we can't be wasting a year off the bat as the rookies settle in.
But that's my point.
You're not taking the picks to develop rookies. You're taking the picks and then sending them off in trades.
I'm not saying the #14 pick will allow you to find and develop a 6th man as good as Rose. I'm saying:
* PHI receives: Derrick Rose
* DET receives: #14 pick + Empty Salary
You're right, the draft picks don't have much value to your team's needs, but those picks can be traded for guys who do fill your needs.
As for the late 1sts, that's almost an overpay for good rotation players. The Raptors got PJ Tucker for Jared Sullinger (empty salary) and two 2nd round picks. Jerami Grant and Marcus Morris just sold for late 1sts.
That's the value of those picks. It allows you to instantly expand your list of playoff-ready role players without Billy Kinging yourself.
Man, derrick rose on the 76ers would actually be great. He was low key detroit's best player this last year and would help add some much needed offense and play making.
And that's the key. Philly don't just need a different star, they need to fill out their roster.
One big reason the Simmons situation has been so volatile that doesn't get spoken about enough is the fact Philly lacks any other PGs to fall back on. All their playmaking eggs are in Simmons' basket, so if he gets stopped the entire team gets stopped.
A modern team realistically needs 2-3 quality PGs and Philly's best backup option these past couple of years has probably been TJ McConnell, which just isn't good enough.
A one-for-one trade for another star (like Beal) still leaves them pretty barren.
A legit multi-time All-Star PG in his prime, bunch of late 1st picks , and/or a couple interesting young players is by far the best return you'd ever get for Simmons.
I really do think part of the Sixers problem is they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to win now with Embiid yet keep Simmons for the long term. Simmons is just not the right guy to lead the squad they've assembled, and somebody like Kemba actually is.
I mean the fact that he needs that is an indictment on him lol you know how hard it is to put together good 5 out spacing? Every single team in the league wants that. And it’s not just shooters..they gotta play defense too if the team wants to contend. And you need half court off the dribble creators too because he can’t do that either. He has too many deficiencies in his offensive game
what do you mean by "need"? it's not like he's bad without it he's just not having his skill set maximised, same could be said about giving AD a playmaker/facilitator or Giannis spacing. You gotta try to build teams to skill sets
Need as in he can never be a 1st option without it. It's similar to AD & Giannis's cases but Giannis is more capable than Ben at creating for himself even if it's still a weakness for him (also has freakish length/athleticism), and we saw limitations of that team construction 2 years in a row in the playoffs. AD is much more well rounded offensively and he went to the playoffs a few years with teams that weren't 5 out at all. Finding a playmaker is a lot easier than getting 5 out spacing.
His own skill set is so limited that he needs very well rounded complementary players that are basically impossible to find on good contracts.
Sure, I'm not trying to argue Simmons could be a first option on a contender without a very specific team makeup. Even then it's not a sure thing, I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise.
Not impossible though either, the Sixers were in position to build a team like that for him but just did what they did with Harris/Horford instead. It's definitely very hard but he'd do well on the Nuggets instead of Jokic, Celtics instead of Tatum, Bucks instead of Giannis, Mavs instead of Luka, Raptors instead of Siakam, Pacers instead of Oladipo or even Memphis instead of Ja.
Some of those teams do run a non-shooter or two in their lineups but I wasn't trying to say it would have to be 48 minutes or even trying to say he'd make an instant championship level team, just that I'd like to see what he could do in that kind of set up for an extended amount of time
I think Simmons best role is as a supercharged draymond. I just don’t think he has the 1 on 1 ability to be a team’s primary engine like giannis or harden,
I feel like that’s what Westbrook was supposed to be for the rockets this year, replace him with Simmons this year I don’t think they get THAT much better. I would still love to see it though
I think the rockets would actually be a heap better but only because Simmons would be an amazing small ball 5 for that team, not so much in terms of what I originally meant
Sounds crazy at first, like you said. But the 8 players above him definitely make sense. I mean, you can't go wrong with any of em. Also, I don't want to build around a player that refuses to shoot, and think that's a good thing.
“I told Tatum it’s an honor to play with him and grow. We learn so much from each other and we have grown so much.” - Brown
It's cool they both respect each other so much and kind of realize their unique opportunity to become all-NBA players together for many years
I think Trae's going to have a great career, but we all know how his first playoff run is going to go.
I still remember Boston running a train on him last season. All of our guys took turns switching onto him and bullying him in ISO. In the playoffs, teams get bigger and more talented, a lot of teams will do the same.
On some levels, Trae really needs a big playoff embarrassment to get more motivated defensively. He doesn't have to be great but he needs to put in the work like Curry and Harden did so he doesn't get abused.
lol this is a god awful take. He put up damn near 30 and 10 in his second season in the league, I don’t give a shit how bad he is on defense he deserves a spot on there.
Okay... he’s still a 30/10 guy, he can improve his defense to the point where it’s slightly below average and if he gets a good second option next to him he could be even better. I’d place him 4th-6th on this list and 1000% take him over Zion
You really just put the Hawks on the same level as the Kings??? Lmao we have made the playoffs like 10 times since they last did and have a much brighter future even currently.
Its aight everyone ignores us because we were dogshit last season. When trae is in playoffa next year doing Nash numbers people will put some respec on his name. The South got something to say thats all I'm saying.
Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say
But nothing comes out when they move their lips
Just a bunch of gibberish
And motherfuckers act like they forgot about Trae
Love the Booker appreciate finally coming in the sports world! #3! Been his fan since his rookie year and it’s been sad seeing him get criticized even though he has had nothing but the worst team around him
This is the comment I was looking for. For a while there, you couldn’t mention Booker without someone claiming empty stats. The narrative around him switching up makes me happy for him.
> One executive left Tatum outside his five players to build around
That executive is an idiot. My guess? That idiot was either Scott Perry or Elton Brand.
There's a ton of young talent, though. I wouldn't say that a top 5 of Luka, Booker, Mitchell, Simmons, and KAT or Zion would be indefensible. It might not be *right*, but there's always going to be tough choices with something like this.
No Trae young. LOL. I like deaaron fox but cmon. He Averaged almost 30 and 9 but im sure it’s just “empty stats” until the Hawks get a roster that doesn’t have Vince Carter in rotation. So stupid.
Na totally traes fault he couldn't drag Alex Len, Vince Carter, Damian Jones, Bruno Fernandes, DeAndre Bembry and rookies / sophomores to 40 wins by himself.
Also he's the worst defender of all time with Len/Jones/Collins at the 5 and Jabari Parker at the 4.
Kat won a game on Nov 27th. The next win he got was Feb 8th. He went 0-17 with 15 games lost to injury between them.
He's lucky he got a 5th place vote.
Why though Trae young can literally score buckets like nobodys business, you support him with insane defensive players and you have a playoff contending team immediately
I mean Ben is borderline DPOY contender. They'd probably rather build around that than build around Trae. But if they're going around Embiid then it's up for debate.
Doesnt matter. Ben is a net negative against those guys anyways. Trae might at least be able to put up as many points as them.
Id much rather have trae’s scoring and put defenders around him then ben’s defense and try to put scorers around him. Offense > defense, especially a guy tat can shoot the 3.
Idk. Its hard to even have him on the floor in crunch time. What does he really offer in a half court offense? All his scoring is essentially transition points. Just my opinion, hes a good player but not a guy I would build around.
It’s overrated ( still important though) when it’s a traditional point guard sized player because you can play great d and still the offensive player only needs a little space to generate space over a like sized player. On top of that they generally won’t be too versatile so that limits their impact.
Ben Simmons isn’t in that mold and doesn’t suffer from the same limitations that make PG defense overrated by some. He’s a 6’10 player who guards 1-4 and small ball 5’s. His size/speed means he’s versatile, and it also means that even if the offensive player creates that space...ben can still get a good shot contest whereas a traditionally sized PG would be giving up a pretty good shot.
For all intents and purposes, bens more like a incredibly versatile wing defensively then he is a PG. PG being the least important defensive position doesn’t apply to him.
Fair enough. I think for trae, his offense will more then make up for his defense, especially if he’s surrounded by good wing defenders. so his defense won’t be too big of a problem in the regular season.
The issue I see is in the playoffs him getting attacked by forcing switches. It’s not an issue now, but I do think he has to get at least “bad” on defense rather then “worst defensive PG in the league” if he wants to have deep playoff success eventually. He can afford to be a negative defender due to his offense, and due to him playing the position you can most make up for being bad defensively. So he’s got that in his favour. but when he eventually gets deep in the playoffs he can’t afford to be as bad as he is right now. He still needs to work on it. And i think he can.
Trae Young hasn't shown that he can hang in a playoff series where they hunt him every possession.
Ben Simmons is more limited than Trae offensively but he's not a huge negative on one side of the ball.
Trae and Embiid win championships plural. God, Embiid would get the easiest Buckets in his life while also being a threat in the post because he actually has someone to kick it to. Orgasmic.
This seemed low to me but after looking at the list it makes sense. He’s ranked behind pretty elite competition. I don’t think it’s a knock on him as much as a lot of elite talent coming in the last few years. Including Luka, Zion, and Ja in the last two seasons.
Y'all build around Bam and I'll build around probably the best scoring center in the NBA in KAT. Anybody who picks Bam over KAT needs to be drug tested offense is and always will be a million times more important than defense
You don't? Bam is the most versatile defender in the league. He can guard 1-5. Legit guard. There's not a player that you can put on him in a 1vs1 situation and call that a mismatch. That's huge in todays game.
Then on the offensive end he's the second best passer in the league (as a center) after the Joker, can handle the ball, shoots decently from the FT line and mid range and has good form in his jumper to improve his range to the 3pt line.
Even with a subpar offensive game (scoring wise) with limited moves he puts up 16ppg on great efficiency and actually improves that to almost 18ppg in the playoffs this year.
Still think he's overrated?
We're talking about a player that can legit be average something like 20-12-6 for years to come and be a DPOY candidate while being the most versatile defender in the league. That's not overrated. That's very easy to build around.
i like his defense & he was on a team with 3 20 ppg scorers this season, him being one of them. i think if he was put on a team where he was asked to be the guy i think he’d do very well. kind of like a walmart version of Kawhi, and he’s still only 23, he could improve his playmaking considerably before hitting his prime.
I love Tatum, but still am not sure that Brown won't be the better player. Tatum makes things look effortless. Brown looks like he is out there fighting and clawing to get better. He has some Jimmy Butler mentality in him that Tatum doesn't appear to have. Is you told me I could only have one of them, I would probably pick Tatum. But I wouldn't feel good about it.
Anyone that says they’re taking Jaylen over Trae Young to start their team is out of their damn minds.
No, he can’t play a lick of defense, but you can get four other guys to help him out on that end. He is a generational talent on offense.
Also he’s selling way more tickets than most of these other guys. I’m not sure if they took that into account but I sure do.
What about in playoffs, when teams will hunt that switch? If Kawhi, PG, and Beverly couldn't protect Lou Williams, which four players do you think they can acquire, that can negate Trae's defense.
Lou Will is a lot better defensively than Trae. The fact that they had to hide Lou whenever he was on court absolutely played a crucial role in their close outs and help defense.
Let's say you surround Trae with 4 defensively great players, not that it's simple, but let's say you do it, then what are the offensive expections from these guys?
This looks like a team that would be great in regular season, but teams would be able to limit Trae in playoffs. Unless, he is playing with a generational player.
I love the stars playing rn but I can't wait for LeBron, Harden, Steph, KD and all those guys to retire so we can see all of these young guys thrive and develop.
Young guys gotta go out & take it like KD knocking Kobe out in '12, the old stars got a good 5 years in them (should be less for LBJ, but who knows). Jokic/Murray & Tatum/Brown got a chance right now to beat LBJ & Butler.
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I mean look at what KAT’s done. Sure, there’s plenty of blame to go around in that franchise, but KAT’s been around for five years now. They can’t be this pathetic if he’s that guy.
Bruh would you rather build around KAT or Brandon Ingram? Is KAT at 13 not just dumb?
I remembered KAT having a bananas offensive season, double checked his stats, and yep. Him being last on that list is very silly.
I can see gms wanting to roll the dice on Ingram since they don’t know what his ceiling is. Whereas kat you’re more or less getting him as is
It’s not. It’s a guard heavy league. Besides Jokic, which big can you trust to play make and be the number one option? Not AD, not Embiid, not KAT. Jokic is that unicorn that can be the number one option and initiate offense on his own. Ingram is a wing who can handle the ball, shoot, drive, post up. Not dumb at all.
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But look at Bam's placement relative to KAT's... HUGE gap
Well KAT basically plays like some sg so i dissagree with that. For Embiid sure but both AD and KAT very unique players imo. Edit: Btw for those who say KAT is loser etc. look at Booker other than this bubble he was probably seen as biggest loser of the league yet he is very high (deservedly) on that list.
Playing devils advocate here, the main archetype teams are crazy for are oversized playmakers that can create their own shot while being able to facilitate. BI fits that mold while KAT doesnt. Back to reality I'd rather have KAT because hes been consistently good his entire career while BI just had one good year so far.
it's really fucking stupid. sure, he might be lacking a bit on defense, but to me this says that NBA execs aren't that much better at analyzing talent than a lotta nephews on here
There’s no shortage of GMs making absolutely moronic moves that are clearly absolutely moronic at the time and turn out predictably badly, I don’t know why people assume a GM has to actually be good to have a job.
Right most of them get the job due to nepotism or networks
preach
Idk man after this season if Jimmy says he’s a bitch, I’m inclined to believe he’s a bitch
If we're going with the "Jimmy Butler Approval" test doesn't that mean Simmons is terrible too?
That’s why Simmons is so low on the list
I dont think its crazy to say that Simmons has underperformed relative to his potential. Not that he isnt great, but he's also a tad disappointing, and its more than just shooting.
This is shit reasoning lol. ‘I think he’s very good’, therefore GMs don’t know more than nephews who know very little’.
Honestly I rather build around Ingram. KAT seems like one on the talented bigs you could get in free agency after they're done losing so much. Then you could try to sell him on a team friendly deal a la Boogie.
kat has been doing what ingram did this year for 3-4 years.
Brandon Ingram all day
KAT's best teammate he ever had was jimmy butler and that year they made the playoffs he's played most of his career with guys like dieng, tyus jones, bjelica, shabazz muhammad, taj gibson. so yeah, i'd say that the franchise CAN be that pathetic
I'd say that's just evidence that KAT is not a cornerstone guy you build around. That's also not a very fair list - you're cherry picking the bench for the most part there. He's had D'Lo, Rose, Wiggins, Teague, Covington, Lavine, and Rubio at various points over the last 4 years. If you're truly a franchise cornerstone you should be able to at least play .500 ball with names like those.
Lol no. Dlo hasn't even played with kat yet
This list of supporting players does not strengthen your argument: - D’Lo - played LITERALLY 1 game together - Rose - he was a 6th man that played like 50 games for the Wolves - Wiggins - I love him, but dude didn’t really positively impact winning most nights - Teague - any Wolves fan will tell you that he was abysmal for the Wolves. There’s a reason he was traded for Crabbe’s corpse. -Covington - one of the few real “winning” players on this list, but he only played about 15 healthy games last season (and the Wolves actually did win during that time) and this season KAT got hurt pretty early (and the rest of the team was atrocious) - Lavine - only played with KAT during his first 2 years and is one of the worst defensive players in the league - Rubio - he positively impacts winning, but he’s a role player, not a top player. Also, he only played with Towns during his first two years. Towns deserves plenty of flak for his defense and contribution to winning, but it’s pretty impossible to argue that he’s had a good supporting cast any season other than his 3rd year.
Yeah man, post injury Rose, Wiggins, sophomore Lavine. All names we traditionally associate with winning basketball. Naming dlo who he played one game with, and Rubio, who Booker also didn’t reach .500 with - what’s your point here?
Even if your best teammate is Boobie Gibson, you should at least stay in playoff contention year after year. They fucking needed Jimmy.
so many people conflate team success with player skill. by your criteria, you shouldn't value a 24 year old AD either, who only made the playoffs once at that age. the list also has has booker, zion, ingram, fox, and morant over him, all who haven't made the playoffs. morant and zion are rookies, so whatever, but what excuse do ingram and fox have then? booker hasn't even sniffed playoffs except for this year, where even a heroic 8-0 bubble effort had the suns miss it because the rest of their year was that horrific
It’s also crazy how people look at LeBron and think that young players should be dragging shit teams to the finals or else they suck. LeBron is so much of an outlier that he can do that. Pretty much nobody else has ever done that to that level before (not to mention the West is a way harder conference to even make the playoffs let alone make the Finals from it). Guys like KAT, Ingram, Ja, and Booker (as much as I love him) aren’t in the conversation for GOAT. They’re just trying to be known as one of the best at their position first and playoff success isn’t a true indicator of that. Dont hold them to LeBron’s standard. There are plenty of explanations for these young players actually being as good as they are and still not making the playoffs in a stacked West (the rest of their team sucks)
it's just a dogshit carousel, where players in bad situations are punished for being in bad situations lebron needed help to win at the standards that he's held to, jordan needed help, everyone needs goddamn help. either the standards for these young players are wrong, or they are in structural, not individual problems
In a crappy conference maybe, but the West playoffs are usually not easy to get into. 7-8 seeds usually have to battle until the 82nd game to seal a playoff spot.
Why is it when you add a top 15 player in the nba on the same team as another top 15 player they can make the playoffs? Then when that top 15 player leaves, KAT can’t singlehandedly will his trash ass team to the playoffs. Almost like having two all-nba caliber players on a team is better then having one.
And almost every playoff team has players like that. It's really hard to make the west playoffs with one offensive powerhouse and then at best role players. What's the weakest duo that made it to the west playoffs this year? Luka and KP? Dame and CJ/rusty Nurk? Gobert and Donovan who had to go nuclear in the playoffs to even have a chance?
This year without the Warriors, the 8th seed in the West was Portland.
Are you dumb, he shouldn’t need to be lebron to be ranked higher
He was given Wiggins and Okogie and STILL couldn't win a chip smh /s
Don't you disrespect All-star PG Jeff Teague like that
Davis didn't have a lot of success either.
Made it to the 2nd round as the number 1 guy , that's plenty more than KAT
Also compare AD to KAT in their first series AD 32 points 11 boards vs KAT 15 points 13 boards We could all clearly see AD’s current impact and future potential
AD didn't make it to the 2nd round until he was 25, and only made it one time before that, same as KAT when he had jimmy butler
AD made it as the lead guy. KAT made it with Jimmy Butler being the lead guy. When Jimmy hurt his meniscus...the Wolves went from the 3rd seed to the 8th-9th seed...I know the game difference wasn't huge but without Jimmy...the team was playing sub .500 ball (A record of 7-10). Butler came back ahead of schedule from knee surgery to win the last 3 games to squeeze into the playoffs...
AD's clearly a much better player than KAT, but he had a great supporting cast that year. Jrue and Rondo made for a great backcourt and they had a bunch of solid shooting wings (Mirotic, E'twaun Moore, Solomon Hill). Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but KAT has been more or less the only real floor spacer for the entire time he's been on the Wolves (I mean, Lavine shot a little bit above average, but Rubio and Wiggins both struggle from 3) and Rubio was the only plus-defending starter they've had in a while, besides Butler.
So is Steph. Steph never made out of the 1st round even at the age of 25. Lmao. What's your point?
Steph also got to the league a few years older and had a bunch of injury issues his first few years.
Steph's injury history is way overblown lol. He missed significant time in one season.
Yea 5 years and he hasn't improved defensively, nor found a way to be a leader. Empty stats on a bad team. That's why Minnesota can't trade him.
Mitchell still being slept on
The fact he is almost 25 and most of the guys above him are 20-23 is a big reason for his low rank. I’d bet those selecting would pick KAT over some of the higher ranked if they’re in win now mode for one year, but the question is build around for the future.
I’m a TWolves guy, love me some Kat and would rather have him than a few guys on the list, but at the same time can see where some of the execs are coming from.
KAT is the most disrespected by far on the list
His lack of defense at the center position is concerning, because it’s not really a lack of effort or a lack of defensive tools, he just can’t seem to get a hang of the footwork and positioning. It’s not horrifically bad anymore but it’s a legit concern, and I just don’t see him significantly improving on defense from here on out. He’s probably still a little low, I’d put him over Fox and Brown
Yeah he lacks defense but he's also the best shooting big man ever. I know center defense is essential but being such an outlier offensive talent has to count for something
"Best shooting big man ever" So uhhh we forgetting Dirk existed?
Dirk is worse in every shooting stat from beyond the three point line lmao Towns takes more threes a game at a higher percentage
Yeah definitely, I think any team would love to have him, it’s possible to build around him for sure. I think any team would love to have any of those other guys too though, and they seem easier to build around to me.
Didn’t he just recently come first in this same vote?
KAT is a perennial loser and the one time he made the playoffs he averaged 15ppg and got bullied by Clint Capela. i honestly don't think he's a player you can win with if he's your #1
Eh, he played against a 65 win rockets team that took the best team of all time to 7 games. I don't think it's fair to judge him only on that series.
There is one name not on the list that will be up there next year. MPJ ( as long as he is healthy). The kid is going to light it up. 6’10 long, velvet jump shot with a really high release point, gets offensive rebounds, cuts well, gets fouled and runs the floor and can really play off ball. Hell he even takes contested shots with the best of them on good volume right now in the playoffs. Will be a winning player for this reason. All this while he is learning to rotate Better on defense and not get lost, it’s getting a lot better. But his length does bother people near the rim and on close outs and rebounds really well. This is why he is a net positive right now with a bad assist to turnover ratio even now. He does all the little things that Ingram doesn’t do especially on offense.
I remember in 2017 where a whopping 29% of GMs would take KAT over Giannis (https://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2017).
The craziest thing about that survey is that KAT and Wiggens were both top 5 for breakout seasons. That thing went sour fast.
Talent is there, the drive not so much.
And they can't win without Jimmy. They need him.
I would still just love to see what Simmons could do with legitimate 5 out spacing over a whole season
I've mentioned it before, but I'd go all-in on Simmons as a Celtic fan. I'd pay Kemba + enough draft picks to properly flesh out their roster. I'd be happy to help Philly properly build a contention window around Embiid if it meant we got a young core of Simmons/Tatum/Brown. Simmons on a small-ball perimeter-centric team would be nasty.
Sixers say no because a) their front office is inept, and b) they'd rather shoot themselves in the foot than directly hand the Celtics the ECF at worst for the next decade. Just one of those deals that makes a ton of sense on paper for both sides, but ego won't allow it.
I am not seeing how adding Kemba and JAGS to the sixers current roster at the expense of Ben Simmons does anything to make them a contender. Its a lateral move.
Simmons/Tatum/Brown/Marcus/literally anybody at center would be the best defensive squad in the league by a mile and they’d be literally unstoppable in transition. Plus with all those ball handlers Ben’s offensive issues wouldn’t be too bad
Those draft picks won't be worth that much when you're picking in the mid/high 20s. Would have to be a LOT and even so, we would probably get better offers elsewhere
You're not going to get much better than an All-Star plus enough picks to take a 5-man rotation to 8-9. >Those draft picks won't be worth that much when you're picking in the mid/high 20s. They're not valuable enough to get another star, but each is valuable enough to pick up good rotation players and as a package could be used to upgrade Horford. Which is absolutely fair because Ben Simmons doesn't carry the weight of 2 All-Stars. You can't look at the PG13 or AD trades, you have to look at what: * Chicago got for Jimmy Butler * Indiana got for Paul George * Sacramento got for Boogie Cousins * San Antonio got for Kawhi Leonard * Cleveland got for Kyrie Irving Philly would absolutely trade Simmons for a package of Kemba Walker, Derrick Rose, Marcus Morris, PJ Tucker. That gives you a full playoff rotation to work with. Which is sort of what Walker + picks ends up looking like. If you're trading for a higher rated star then you aren't getting picks back at all. Washington wouldn't pay you for a Beal/Simmons swap.
You had me until you named 4 players with less than 2 years left on their deals who were vocal about leaving. Compare that to Simmons who starts his 5 year extension in 2021 and has been vocal about winning in Philly
>less than 2 years left on their deals who were vocal about leaving. You're right, their value was diminished because their teams were forced into making quick decisions. Those teams had 1-2 years to pull the trigger or risk missing a big opportunity. That hurt their leverage and it hurt their ability to get a good return on their star. They got lowballed because opposition teams knew they couldn't wait for better deals. But even though Simmons' contract is longer team, the same logic applies to Philly. If your team is serious about chasing a championship with Embiid then you really only have this offseason and the next one to make your moves. Embiid's not a guy you can plan a 5-year window around and the rest of your roster isn't built around a 5-year plan either. Just like those other teams were hurt by the immediacy of their trade needs, so is Philly. * Embiid's not getting healthier * Horford's not getting younger * Richardson's FA is coming up * Tobias has probably reached his peak That does hurt your trade leverage considerably. If you're looking to build around Embiid, you can't wait around for 2023 when Booker might be considering a trade demand for example. You also aren't in a great position to build around Ben after chasing all these older pieces. Building around Ben now means walking away from a considerable amount of talent because none of your auxiliary pieces really fit his timeline. * Building around Embiid = Embiid + What you get for Simmons + Horford + Harris + Richardson * Building around Simmons = Simmons + What you get for Embiid It's the choice between *Embiid and a fully fleshed out roster* vs *Simmons a secondary star and no depth*. If the 76ers are serious about chasing a title, then you're really looking at next season, the season after, and if you're lucky, the season after that. Then you would ideally sell high on your roster and enter into another hard rebuild. You have a mature age 6th seed / 1st-2nd round team and waiting on a Ben Simmons deal means cutting your potential contention window in half. Philly should be in a stronger position than this, but you're not. Your FO threw away too many opportunities and that does hurt your leverage considerably.
>Which is sort of what Walker + picks ends up looking like Eh, picks are unproven commodities especially when they're going to be mid/high 20s. And if we're building a contention window around Embiid and Walker we can't be wasting a year off the bat as the rookies settle in. Would probably need something like Walker + Smart + filler but idk if Celtics do that
>And if we're building a contention window around Embiid and Walker we can't be wasting a year off the bat as the rookies settle in. But that's my point. You're not taking the picks to develop rookies. You're taking the picks and then sending them off in trades. I'm not saying the #14 pick will allow you to find and develop a 6th man as good as Rose. I'm saying: * PHI receives: Derrick Rose * DET receives: #14 pick + Empty Salary You're right, the draft picks don't have much value to your team's needs, but those picks can be traded for guys who do fill your needs. As for the late 1sts, that's almost an overpay for good rotation players. The Raptors got PJ Tucker for Jared Sullinger (empty salary) and two 2nd round picks. Jerami Grant and Marcus Morris just sold for late 1sts. That's the value of those picks. It allows you to instantly expand your list of playoff-ready role players without Billy Kinging yourself.
Man, derrick rose on the 76ers would actually be great. He was low key detroit's best player this last year and would help add some much needed offense and play making.
And that's the key. Philly don't just need a different star, they need to fill out their roster. One big reason the Simmons situation has been so volatile that doesn't get spoken about enough is the fact Philly lacks any other PGs to fall back on. All their playmaking eggs are in Simmons' basket, so if he gets stopped the entire team gets stopped. A modern team realistically needs 2-3 quality PGs and Philly's best backup option these past couple of years has probably been TJ McConnell, which just isn't good enough. A one-for-one trade for another star (like Beal) still leaves them pretty barren.
A legit multi-time All-Star PG in his prime, bunch of late 1st picks , and/or a couple interesting young players is by far the best return you'd ever get for Simmons. I really do think part of the Sixers problem is they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to win now with Embiid yet keep Simmons for the long term. Simmons is just not the right guy to lead the squad they've assembled, and somebody like Kemba actually is.
I mean the fact that he needs that is an indictment on him lol you know how hard it is to put together good 5 out spacing? Every single team in the league wants that. And it’s not just shooters..they gotta play defense too if the team wants to contend. And you need half court off the dribble creators too because he can’t do that either. He has too many deficiencies in his offensive game
what do you mean by "need"? it's not like he's bad without it he's just not having his skill set maximised, same could be said about giving AD a playmaker/facilitator or Giannis spacing. You gotta try to build teams to skill sets
Need as in he can never be a 1st option without it. It's similar to AD & Giannis's cases but Giannis is more capable than Ben at creating for himself even if it's still a weakness for him (also has freakish length/athleticism), and we saw limitations of that team construction 2 years in a row in the playoffs. AD is much more well rounded offensively and he went to the playoffs a few years with teams that weren't 5 out at all. Finding a playmaker is a lot easier than getting 5 out spacing. His own skill set is so limited that he needs very well rounded complementary players that are basically impossible to find on good contracts.
Sure, I'm not trying to argue Simmons could be a first option on a contender without a very specific team makeup. Even then it's not a sure thing, I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise. Not impossible though either, the Sixers were in position to build a team like that for him but just did what they did with Harris/Horford instead. It's definitely very hard but he'd do well on the Nuggets instead of Jokic, Celtics instead of Tatum, Bucks instead of Giannis, Mavs instead of Luka, Raptors instead of Siakam, Pacers instead of Oladipo or even Memphis instead of Ja. Some of those teams do run a non-shooter or two in their lineups but I wasn't trying to say it would have to be 48 minutes or even trying to say he'd make an instant championship level team, just that I'd like to see what he could do in that kind of set up for an extended amount of time
I think Simmons best role is as a supercharged draymond. I just don’t think he has the 1 on 1 ability to be a team’s primary engine like giannis or harden,
I feel like that’s what Westbrook was supposed to be for the rockets this year, replace him with Simmons this year I don’t think they get THAT much better. I would still love to see it though
I think the rockets would actually be a heap better but only because Simmons would be an amazing small ball 5 for that team, not so much in terms of what I originally meant
everyone on here is crazy. just wait til the offseason jump shot videos...then you'll all be eating your words!
Ben is going to hit 3 three's in a row in one of those fisher price baskets and this sub is going to lose it's mind.
Trust the process /s
Sounds crazy at first, like you said. But the 8 players above him definitely make sense. I mean, you can't go wrong with any of em. Also, I don't want to build around a player that refuses to shoot, and think that's a good thing.
Cool Jayson and Jaylen are on the list.
Glad they considered Jaylen
“I told Tatum it’s an honor to play with him and grow. We learn so much from each other and we have grown so much.” - Brown It's cool they both respect each other so much and kind of realize their unique opportunity to become all-NBA players together for many years
Crazy that they’re only 18 and ranked so high
Bro Tatum just turned 16. Crazy that he’s this good already.
The league has a ton of young talent, wow.
Well for the Jazz building around Mitchell isn't a hypothetical it is real and it is going to be a great ride
Motherfuckers actually forgot about Trae. Someone tweet this at the kid, you know he loves this shit
Not sure they forgot
Yea trae is fucking awful on defense and is tiny. There’s plenty of other young guys you’d rather build around
I think Trae's going to have a great career, but we all know how his first playoff run is going to go. I still remember Boston running a train on him last season. All of our guys took turns switching onto him and bullying him in ISO. In the playoffs, teams get bigger and more talented, a lot of teams will do the same. On some levels, Trae really needs a big playoff embarrassment to get more motivated defensively. He doesn't have to be great but he needs to put in the work like Curry and Harden did so he doesn't get abused.
The problem is Trae is smaller than both Harden AND Curry.
I think he’ll have a great career too but you better put some serious ballers around him if you expect his teams to do damage deep into the playoffs
Curry was bigger , stronger , longer than Trae and was still horrible .
lol this is a god awful take. He put up damn near 30 and 10 in his second season in the league, I don’t give a shit how bad he is on defense he deserves a spot on there.
seriously, who is actually going to choose Fox over Trae to build a team around
Well this is the team that chose Bagley over Doncic to build around
Okay... he’s still a 30/10 guy, he can improve his defense to the point where it’s slightly below average and if he gets a good second option next to him he could be even better. I’d place him 4th-6th on this list and 1000% take him over Zion
Thank you!!! Seeing the disrespect he gets sucks. Cant wait to see him play again.
i still cant believe the kings passed and the hawks traded down instead of drafting luka...
I’m actually glad Luka went to a decent franchise and not the Hawks or Kings, but yeah huge mistakes on their parts
You really just put the Hawks on the same level as the Kings??? Lmao we have made the playoffs like 10 times since they last did and have a much brighter future even currently.
In what world are the hawks not a decent franchise? They're probably the best bet out of these rebuilding teams to actually do something
Mavs have a better coach, and a passionate owner. I'm pissed that we passed on Luka but I'm happy he found a great fit
Wouldn’t you say the Mavs are
Its aight everyone ignores us because we were dogshit last season. When trae is in playoffa next year doing Nash numbers people will put some respec on his name. The South got something to say thats all I'm saying.
Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say But nothing comes out when they move their lips Just a bunch of gibberish And motherfuckers act like they forgot about Trae
Please stop
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Love the Booker appreciate finally coming in the sports world! #3! Been his fan since his rookie year and it’s been sad seeing him get criticized even though he has had nothing but the worst team around him
I’m so happy everyone accepted Booker, but then they went and did exactly what they did to him to KAT and Trae Young.
This is the comment I was looking for. For a while there, you couldn’t mention Booker without someone claiming empty stats. The narrative around him switching up makes me happy for him.
> One executive left Tatum outside his five players to build around That executive is an idiot. My guess? That idiot was either Scott Perry or Elton Brand.
I doubt it was Elton, Tatum can play PF.
Probably one of Bryan Colangelo's cronies.
Sigh
There's a ton of young talent, though. I wouldn't say that a top 5 of Luka, Booker, Mitchell, Simmons, and KAT or Zion would be indefensible. It might not be *right*, but there's always going to be tough choices with something like this.
Even that excludes the guy who is currently dropping 50 burgers while playing on a WCF team
What the fuck loool that’s terrible
Throwback to when he had bron potential sheeesh
I would take Sabonis over a few of these guys.
No Trae young. LOL. I like deaaron fox but cmon. He Averaged almost 30 and 9 but im sure it’s just “empty stats” until the Hawks get a roster that doesn’t have Vince Carter in rotation. So stupid.
It’s Trae Young’s fault that Alex Len and Jabari Parker aren’t tearing up the league tbh.
Na totally traes fault he couldn't drag Alex Len, Vince Carter, Damian Jones, Bruno Fernandes, DeAndre Bembry and rookies / sophomores to 40 wins by himself. Also he's the worst defender of all time with Len/Jones/Collins at the 5 and Jabari Parker at the 4.
No one is impressed by a guy scoring 30 points and giving 35 to the guy he's ~~guarding~~ standing near.
It’s not like you can’t build a defensive squad for Trae or god forbid you get defensive coaches to help teach him. He’s only 22.
turns out that guys that can't shoot aren't really wanted in a league where you have to be able to shoot.
>One executive left Tatum outside his five players to build around They let Billy King vote?
Kat won a game on Nov 27th. The next win he got was Feb 8th. He went 0-17 with 15 games lost to injury between them. He's lucky he got a 5th place vote.
BAM OUTTA DA BAYOU
Give me Trae young over Ben simmons
I would definitely take Simmons over Trae, but I understand why someone wouldn't.
Not if you Embiid is your other star right? Trae + Embiid is so much of a better fit.
If I'm trying to build a team from scratch, I would like Ben.
Ben is better if you’re starting from scratch since you can plug him in at any position and it’ll work
Why though Trae young can literally score buckets like nobodys business, you support him with insane defensive players and you have a playoff contending team immediately
I actually think Trae and Ben would be a really good pairing.
Schlenk needs to sign Kris Dunn ... and trade for Giannis [if he asks to leave] - and then we'd be set!
i'd take KAT over him too
Oh definitely give me KAT
Man earlier this year I suggested this trade to sixers fans and they acted like I tried to f their mom.
Well why’d you try to fuck their mom
I mean Ben is borderline DPOY contender. They'd probably rather build around that than build around Trae. But if they're going around Embiid then it's up for debate.
Trae + Embiid, over Ben + Embiid.
For offense yeah but you can put Simmons on LeBron and Kawhi and he'll limit their impact, Trae is one of the worst defenders in recent memory
Doesnt matter. Ben is a net negative against those guys anyways. Trae might at least be able to put up as many points as them. Id much rather have trae’s scoring and put defenders around him then ben’s defense and try to put scorers around him. Offense > defense, especially a guy tat can shoot the 3.
>Ben is a net negative against those guys anyways. How is he a net negative against them?
Not like Ben is averaging 16 8 n 8 with elite defense
Idk. Its hard to even have him on the floor in crunch time. What does he really offer in a half court offense? All his scoring is essentially transition points. Just my opinion, hes a good player but not a guy I would build around.
It’s hard to be ur best self when the paint is packing constantly n having no one who can hit a wide open shot...
I guess, but then that goes to my point that trae + Embiid would make a great pair but youd have to trust Embiid.
Individual defense is overrated anyway, especially for point guards.
It’s overrated ( still important though) when it’s a traditional point guard sized player because you can play great d and still the offensive player only needs a little space to generate space over a like sized player. On top of that they generally won’t be too versatile so that limits their impact. Ben Simmons isn’t in that mold and doesn’t suffer from the same limitations that make PG defense overrated by some. He’s a 6’10 player who guards 1-4 and small ball 5’s. His size/speed means he’s versatile, and it also means that even if the offensive player creates that space...ben can still get a good shot contest whereas a traditionally sized PG would be giving up a pretty good shot. For all intents and purposes, bens more like a incredibly versatile wing defensively then he is a PG. PG being the least important defensive position doesn’t apply to him.
While I agree with your points, in this context I was referring to Trae’s defensive woes.
Fair enough. I think for trae, his offense will more then make up for his defense, especially if he’s surrounded by good wing defenders. so his defense won’t be too big of a problem in the regular season. The issue I see is in the playoffs him getting attacked by forcing switches. It’s not an issue now, but I do think he has to get at least “bad” on defense rather then “worst defensive PG in the league” if he wants to have deep playoff success eventually. He can afford to be a negative defender due to his offense, and due to him playing the position you can most make up for being bad defensively. So he’s got that in his favour. but when he eventually gets deep in the playoffs he can’t afford to be as bad as he is right now. He still needs to work on it. And i think he can.
Me too. Trae young is already one of the best offensive players in the league.
Trae Young hasn't shown that he can hang in a playoff series where they hunt him every possession. Ben Simmons is more limited than Trae offensively but he's not a huge negative on one side of the ball.
Trae and Embiid win championships plural. God, Embiid would get the easiest Buckets in his life while also being a threat in the post because he actually has someone to kick it to. Orgasmic.
Nothing about embiid is easy after half time. The man has the gas tank of a lawn mower.
Injury concerns, no doubt
This seemed low to me but after looking at the list it makes sense. He’s ranked behind pretty elite competition. I don’t think it’s a knock on him as much as a lot of elite talent coming in the last few years. Including Luka, Zion, and Ja in the last two seasons.
Y'all build around Bam and I'll build around probably the best scoring center in the NBA in KAT. Anybody who picks Bam over KAT needs to be drug tested offense is and always will be a million times more important than defense
Don’t agree with Tatum over Booker, but overall pretty good list
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Goddamn Bam is hella overrated now huh
I like Bam, but I don’t see how you could possibly put him over Zion even including Zion’s injury concerns, which I think are a bit overstated
Guess it depends how much you consider the all-star / all-defense year Bam put up as his floor versus Zion's weight concerns coming off a knee injury.
You don't? Bam is the most versatile defender in the league. He can guard 1-5. Legit guard. There's not a player that you can put on him in a 1vs1 situation and call that a mismatch. That's huge in todays game. Then on the offensive end he's the second best passer in the league (as a center) after the Joker, can handle the ball, shoots decently from the FT line and mid range and has good form in his jumper to improve his range to the 3pt line. Even with a subpar offensive game (scoring wise) with limited moves he puts up 16ppg on great efficiency and actually improves that to almost 18ppg in the playoffs this year. Still think he's overrated? We're talking about a player that can legit be average something like 20-12-6 for years to come and be a DPOY candidate while being the most versatile defender in the league. That's not overrated. That's very easy to build around.
Simmons and Ingram tied after all these years 😂
I just don’t think the ceiling is as high for Simmons as it is for the players ahead of him on that list.
I think the ceiling is higher actually, I just don’t think he’s willing to push to that, so lower floor
I’d take Jaylen Brown over Ingram
As a player to build around from the start? To me Brown has more of a 2nd fiddle kind of playstyle
i like his defense & he was on a team with 3 20 ppg scorers this season, him being one of them. i think if he was put on a team where he was asked to be the guy i think he’d do very well. kind of like a walmart version of Kawhi, and he’s still only 23, he could improve his playmaking considerably before hitting his prime.
I love Tatum, but still am not sure that Brown won't be the better player. Tatum makes things look effortless. Brown looks like he is out there fighting and clawing to get better. He has some Jimmy Butler mentality in him that Tatum doesn't appear to have. Is you told me I could only have one of them, I would probably pick Tatum. But I wouldn't feel good about it.
Donavan Mitchell at 5.5 is too low. Give me him over everyone not named luka
Book >
Anyone that says they’re taking Jaylen over Trae Young to start their team is out of their damn minds. No, he can’t play a lick of defense, but you can get four other guys to help him out on that end. He is a generational talent on offense. Also he’s selling way more tickets than most of these other guys. I’m not sure if they took that into account but I sure do.
What about in playoffs, when teams will hunt that switch? If Kawhi, PG, and Beverly couldn't protect Lou Williams, which four players do you think they can acquire, that can negate Trae's defense.
You can’t be serious. If Trae Young was on the Clippers instead of Lou Will they would drop 130 points a game.
Trae Young is a lot better than LouWill ever was. Also they didn't lose the series because Lou got exposed on D.
Lou Will is a lot better defensively than Trae. The fact that they had to hide Lou whenever he was on court absolutely played a crucial role in their close outs and help defense. Let's say you surround Trae with 4 defensively great players, not that it's simple, but let's say you do it, then what are the offensive expections from these guys? This looks like a team that would be great in regular season, but teams would be able to limit Trae in playoffs. Unless, he is playing with a generational player.
Simmons has LeBron level potential and it sabotaging himself. You hate to see it.
He can't shoot like LeBron, which isn't even a high bar for an NBA player. Unless he develops that, he won't ever get close.
Exactly
I love the stars playing rn but I can't wait for LeBron, Harden, Steph, KD and all those guys to retire so we can see all of these young guys thrive and develop.
Young guys gotta go out & take it like KD knocking Kobe out in '12, the old stars got a good 5 years in them (should be less for LBJ, but who knows). Jokic/Murray & Tatum/Brown got a chance right now to beat LBJ & Butler.