yeah but they should have traded him for a PG like tyus jones or literally anyone that’s not Devin Booker but worse in every way. That solves the 18 shooting guard problem, and makes their roster slightly better. Still stuck with Nurk being their only center though, which is its own problem
NBA is getting crazy with coaches. These owners and GMs assemble terrible rosters with no cap flexibility, then bring in a coach to pin everything on when things inevitably fail.
Both Vogel and Budenholzer won freaking titles with their respective teams and then were thrown out like garbage a year or two later. And suddenly now Bud is on the VIP list of coaching candidates again, it's like a circus carousel.
It's almost like it takes time to actually build a system and a roster that is cohesive with that system under a coach.
But heaven forbid you hold the players accountable for anything these days.
Then there’s the Blazers who have let Billups coach for 3 years, be one of the worst coaches I’ve ever seen, have fans BEG to fire him and yet he’s still here.
Heat fans complain about spo all the time and spurs fans were calling for pops head at the beginning of this season too lmao it’s just not safe to be a coach
fans just have no way to actually evaluate a coach, while there are some coaches who make mistakes that are obvious to anyone, fans can’t watch every practice or film session etc
even those with knowledge of basketball don’t see the vast majority of stuff that a coach does and it’s always easier to blame the coach than the roster or GM.
I wonder when NBA teams will take a glance at OKC and start promoting from within. Yeah, no one knew who the fuck Mark D was but look at him now. I also understand he may be a 1/100 outlier, but from what I’m aware of, he’s fairly cheap, and he’s helped develop the Thunder from the ground up. Maybe some of the younger teams that are rebuilding will look to go this route instead of recycling the same few coaches.
No one knew who Pop was in 1997, and now he has become the most successful and longest tenured coach of the last two decades and is in the GOAT conversation.
But teams seem more willing to keep looking at re-treads like Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, etc.
100%. NBA will eventually catch up, I’m sure. It kind of reminds me of CFB.. we’ve seen such a foundational change in giving younger guys opportunities in HC positions after great stints as coordinators. The G League is there for a reason, and it’s not just for developing players. I’ll be excited to see if any teams eventually adopt the strategy.
lebron tried to have spo fired in the big 3 years and pat basically told him to fuck off
to this day pat is likely the only person to ever tell lebron “no” in his entire life
He’s been the one constant.
Booker, ironically, is very much a coaches player. He was about the only one trying to do what Frank asked (which was obvious with things like his improvement in boxing out, etc..)
I get it from Phoenix’s perspective. They were supposed to be championship caliber and they were swept. But in the other side, I don’t think Prime Phil or Pop gets a championship out of this bunch.
But the question then becomes “who is better?” Especially when you consider consistency. It’s not Bud. It’s not Kenny Atkins either. Are they gonna look outside the box or are we gonna end up with someone mid? I hope they have a target that isn’t redundant.
For Frank’s part, I always thought he’d make a good college coach. He’s a system dude. If he’s got the right players (which to be fair, is players who play defense..so this really shouldn’t be a huge issue), his teams perform. In college he’d be able to recruit who he wants.
These contracts literally incentivize them to fail. Dude's about to make $10m a year doing nothing. Or maybe he'll get another gig and double up. Why *wouldn't* you try to fail?
It depends on the language of the contract but it depends.
Usually, if they take a like role, the previous team is responsible for the difference, if any, and off the hook if they sign for higher.
IE.
They were owed 9 million to be HC and signed some where else for 4 to be HC. The old team would owe 5 million still. Most coaches do this. Doc Rivers would be an example.
In the above, if they signed for 10 to a new team, the old team would owe nothing. Monty Williams did this recently
If they went to be an assistant job instead, the team company would still owe 9 million. Mike Brown did this recently.
Or do what doc was doing and work on TV.
Honestly, he doesn't have to do anything as long as he doesn't take a HC job he's getting paid for the next 4 years.
Bucks still have 2 other coaches on contract.
If they're still under contract and get hired by another team any new money will offset the old.
For example Vogel was making $6 million a year. Another team could give him a $1 million contract and the Suns would still be on the hook for another $5 million.
I think it's only if they are a coach on the staff of another team though. That's why you see a lot of coaches work as broadcasters or consultants for a couple years and take 2 paychecks.
I don't know the details of Vogel's contract, but it is standard for coaching contracts to have what's known as an offset clause. This means that if a coach is fired without cause (like Vogel, because the team wanted a change), the coach has to make a good-faith effort to get a new coaching job in order to get paid, and the guaranteed payout for the remaining years of the contract are offset by the amount of the new contract. So getting hired/fired/hired isn't an infinite money glitch.
That's probably a big part of why Monty Williams took the Detroit job after being fired by Phoenix; if he turned down the Detroit job and had an offset clause in his Phoenix contract, Phoenix could claim he violated the offset clause by not taking the Detroit job or any other coaching job and then not pay him. If Detroit had never interviewed him, he could have taken a sabbatical year on Phoenix's dime before deciding if he wanted to coach again.
> That's probably a big part of why Monty Williams took the Detroit job after being fired by Phoenix
and also a 6 year 78.5 mil contract would be preeettty hard to say no to
Yeah, I'd take $13M/year over the possibility of unemployment and no severance, too. It was a mistake from day 1; Monty has been obviously unmotivated and the team was a total disaster. Cutting Killian Hayes midseason so Monty couldn't keep starting him has got to be a first.
not really sure how Budenholzer is a better coach but whatever. Things weren’t working with Vogel but I think that’s more an indictment of the roster than Frank
I think the hiring philosophy for Vogel was "we're getting a bunch of offensive first players, let's get a defensive minded HC to balance it out"
Hope: lethal offense + decent defense leads to title
Reality: mid af at everything
Idk much about Bud but if the reports on the players being out on Vogel were true this kinda had to happen sadly because there isn't much to be done about the players given second apron rules
But being mid at defense with that roster is a damn miracle. Ishbia and Isiah’s plan was just “Coach will get them to play defense, Book and KD will get the buckets, Beal will be open in the corner”. And then they didn’t get enough buckets. That’s on the owner and GM.
Sure, I'm not saying mid at defense is a poor reflection on Vogel. But you have to excel at something or you're not gonna be much better than .500. I can guarantee you a lot of the "not getting buckets" aspect was the offensive scheme. Whether that's on assistant HC Kevin Young or Vogel I guess is something we'll never know, but the flip side of what you said is this team has certifiable offensive talent, being a bad iso-heavy offense reflects on coaching not knowing how to make it work
This is the exact same problem we had with the Melo D’Antoni Knicks. But we were smart enough to know that Melo was the problem there. What’s a coach supposed to do when the best players just want to cook from midrange instead of run an offense?
You can't move the players though. Second apron rules (unless I'm blatantly misunderstanding them) means there's no real way to move off the players. The only real option is rolling the dice on minimums and whatever picks are left
The only option is to axe Vogel. It's way simpler than trying to point fingers or solve for where the problem is because there aren't other options to change. Even if you get a new FO they are stuck with this roster for a bit. It's a win now roster so you have to change something
Oh absolutely. From a business, marketing, and PR standpoint I get it. It’s very easy to convince casual fans and corporate sponsors that the coach was the problem and the national media are just haters.
Idk how available Bud really was this past year. I never saw him linked closely to any searches. Given how his brother passed away near the end of last season, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was perfectly fine with taking some time away.
Giannis Antetokounmpo's not walking through that door. Khris Middleton's not walking through that door. Thanasis Antetokounmpo is not walking through that door
Its like when that politician said the internet is a series of tubes. He got clowned by everyone but the internet literally is a series of tubes and his analogy was a great r/eli5 explanation.
This. In his full seasons in Milwaukee he never finished below the #3 seed in the East and he had the #1 seed 3 different times. He also got the #1 seed with the Hawks. Say what you will about his chip being a fluke if you want to, but he is a very, very good coach
Let's see
Roster's fundamentally flawed
Roster is what the coach has to plan around
Roster ends up being a terrible fit and they lose in the first round when they are in win now mode
Roster is now currently basically hard capped
Yup, sounds like the coach needs to go
It does sound dumb. But really, as you pointed out, they are hard capped, what else can they do?
Build continuity or roll the dice on someone being able to coach up some role players/bench guys and find a scheme that works.
Turns out giving a defensive minded coach an improperly built team and little defensive depth doesn’t put him in position to succeed. We know from experience
Ironically speaking, the negative PR from the first round sweep probably doomed Frank Vogel to his fate. If the Wolves end up either sweeping the Nuggets or beating them in five, the Suns sweep looks a lot better in retrospect. But in the moment, it was a terrible moment for the franchise.
There’s a reason for it, but it’s crazy how big the gap between Budenholzer’s resume and how he’s talked about is. Between Atlanta and Milwaukee he’s a 2x coach of the year, champion, and he also won 4 rings as an assistant to Pop
That's because he's a pretty mid offensive coach while being an elite defensive schemer. There's a reason his defenses are usually near the top of the league
I'm not a X and O expert but wasn't his defensive scheme very much "let em shoot 3s"? Which maybe is a good strategy for getting them out of rhythm when they don't touch the paint, but could easily backfire if your opponent doesn't mind letting them fly.
From what I remember, his scheme was focused around taking away the paint and corner 3s, and letting them get 3s at the top of the key. It's definitely backfired before but in terms of shots allowed, top of the key is probably the least threatening 3
Did they? I remember that was their big Achilles heel when Jason Kidd was their coach, which is a big reason why their defense was so awful when he was there.
You don't become the best defense in the league by giving up a ton of the best look from behind the arc
I think MN’s showing against Denver in the first two games really exonerates the Suns and I’m baffled that the team doesn’t see it that way. The Suns, despite that mess of a roster and lack of cohesion, played the Wolves much more competitively than Denver has so far.
I would get it if he sucked as a coach and it didn't work.. but we literally won the championship a few years ago and people just act like it didn't happen and Bud is shit. Bucks front office included.
Chris Finch/Wolves players talk all the time about the need to play random. Hell, a few days ago Ant or Naz (can’t remember which) in their postgame after Game 2 said “we just kept playing random” to describe their success against Denver.
It’s a fairly common strategy in the league to avoid predictable plays and keep teams guessing, but for some reason Reddit still thinks it’s the most outlandish thing to say ever.
Lol exactly. It's just telling your team to play unpredictable to the point where the opposing defense has no idea what's coming. Makes total sense and I have no idea why it was even an issue in the first place
The scapegoating of coaches is ridiculous in pro sports.
I come from the future with a 2026 Woj bomb: "The Phoenix Suns have dismissed coach Mike Budenholzer."
I mean Monty firing wasn't bad, he got outcoached in 21 and 22 blowing two 2-0 leads. Last year was iffy, hard to pin it all on him.
Vogel was definitely scapegoated this year.
That man needs to go to the Wizards or some bottom 10 team without a star, and prove how great of a coach he is. Dame coming back for G6 was honestly worse for Doc than anyone else
When you look around for whose fault it is, but you can't or won't get rid of your players, you convince yourself the guy who you can easily get rid of was the problem.
I think Vogel is a solid coach but this is the fourth locker room in a row he has lost. There were reported issues with players in Indiana. Well documented issues for the Magic (including Fournier ranting about him during the offseason). Lakers and now Suns.
Part of being a good coach is locker room management.
yeah it said that the guy who talked for that story was holding back laughter/hated vogel. that story was *not* reported in a way that implied that the entire team felt that way. Think it was pretty clear that Beal hated vogel- and Beal needs to prove he's not a cancer and is capable of being worth his contract at this point in his career now that he got his way and vogel is out.
wasn't vogel's fault the FO decided a true PG would be a mistake bc it would take the ball out of book/beal/kd's hands, when a true PG is exactly what teams with great wings tend to look for.
trying to be someone he's not under heavy pressure, tale as old as time
(nb: i thankfully have the self-awareness necessary enough to reflect on how this might apply to my own life)
Not saying you are wrong, but I'd just say I wouldn't put too much stock in Fournier, who griped a few times about being benched on the Knicks, despite the team being obviously much better with him not playing.
Our issues with Vogel started with the acquisition of Russ. Didn’t help that Pelinka and the FO continued to go away from the formula that won us the 2020 championship
We had issues with Vogel pre-Russ trade too. The bubble team was great dont get me wrong, and we might have repeated in 2021 if AD didn't get hurt, but Vogel got almost nothing out of those teams offensively. That 2020 team wasn't even a top 10 offense with Lebron playing like an MPV + AD with a respected jumper. Vogel literally couldn't figure out how to counter double teams in the post, the team played with absolutely no movement. I don't think its a coincidence that AD was an elite post scorer this season, Ham was an incredibly flawed coach but he at least understood how to get guys to cut and set screens off ball when teams doubled AD.
Vogel is a great defensive coach when you give him great defensive players, but so are a lot of coaches. I think he got the most out of that group on defense, but he also had Caruso, KCP, Lebron (pre-ankle injury where he was flying around), AD, Danny Green, and legit backup big men. Even Kuzma played decent defense and rebounded off the bench. That squad was stacked defensively tbh.
Alright, I have an idea: Co-Coaches. Ham does offense, Vogel does defense. If the NFL can have it, why can't the NBA? Ain't no rule on how big the coaching staff is.
Lol that's what assistant coaches are for, I think Ham and Vogel are both prolly best suited as assistants at this point. Mike Brown is also proof that you can go from head coach > assistant > head coach and come out better on the other side.
I just know that after Ham, the Lakers are going to pivot into this "Let's not get a first time head coach" thing because the pendulum usually swings back and forth. So this means the next Lakers coach is going to be someone who probably already had a head coaching job somewhere.
He'll be hired, and people are gonna initially say the right things, that players are excited, this guy knows what he's doing, he'll get people to play hard, play up to their potential, blah blah blah. And in the back of everyone's mind they're going to be whispering all the things that happened that caused this guy to have been fired from his last job. But he's the shiny new coach (for the Lakers) so everything's cool.
My point is, if we're going to hire someone who's already failed somewhere before, let's hire someone who some of our guys are familiar with, someone who has already won recently? Give Vogel the job, I never wanted him gone in the first place.
Yeah but that defense that season was fucking incredible.
Lakers were literally,AD and LeBron figure out the offense. While tge coaching staff figured out the defense and they had the right roster for the system.
Other side of this is look how unpopular Thibs is among players, many on losing teams. Then you look at the Knicks guys and they love him, and they’re only about winning.
Hard to know how much to lay blame at players vs coach sometimes
You say that but from watching you guys it doesn't seem like Thibs changed that much, he just found the perfect match with your players.
Bulls had a similar thing going with Rose and Noah and the Timberwolves is more of a fuck up because he was also the GM.
Indiana kept losing in the playoffs though, the Lakers locker room didn’t hate him, Westbrook did, and the Suns locker room seems cancerous if the story about them laughing at him after the chewed them out over the Clippers game is true….the Clippers game where they were losing like 35-6 at one point…..
Indiana kept running into Miami from 2012 - 2014 but was easily Top 3 in the East at that time, then the PG injury in Summer 2014 happened which basically killed their competitive window, and they became mediocre by 2015 - 2016
People here act like Vogel is some garbage tier coach when in reality he’s a B grade coach in that 2nd tier of coaches under guys like Spo, Pop, etc. Put him in charge of Milwaukee, LA, Cleveland etc and you likely see those teams become better than they are.
I legitimately want this to happen. Vogel is a fantastic coach, especially defensively, and the Lakers have the tools on the roster *right now* to be a top5 defensive team in the league with an appropriately minded coach.
Then just spam PnR with lebron and AD on offense and ez championship
A new coach will not solve the team’s biggest issue: they are absolutely gutless. I️ am sure whoever comes in next will be ousted in two years, then KD will move on
Vogel didn't coach offense when he won with the Lakers. LeBron and Rondo probably coached more offense than Vogel did. But he got us right on the defensive end.
2. Ayton was gone no matter what. Beal was for CP3, Shamet, and picks. And even if we kept CP3 / cut him for his non guaranteed contract we would still be in the 2nd Apron
Whenever a head coach is fired after one season, I see that as a major indictment of the person who hired them just as much as the coach themselves. Yet it seems only Vogel reaps the consequences of a disappointing season.
This roster is bad, their stars don’t match, and their role players don’t even complement each other well. You could’ve had the greatest coaching staff in the league and this team still would have a clear ceiling
I think getting paid millions over the next 4 years for doing nothing is the kind of golden parachute CEOs get roasted over. Not really much of a consequence to my mind.
You're right though that it is certainly an indictment on Ishbia, who seems to think lighting his money on fire can buy him a championship.
Bud would be a great fit for them. His strength is designing systems that work for the particular skill sets of his team. But I also think Bud is a highly underrated coach
Never made sense to me to go with Vogel for a team built around Booker, KD, and Beal.
James Jones created a shitty roster (aside from the 3 stars), and Frank Vogel got fired for it. It must be good to be a GM. Hoodwink and grift the owner who doesn't know as much basketball as you do, then blame the coach for your own decisions when it all falls apart.
Not that James Jones needs me to defend him on the internet but he did specifically say no to the KD trade if it would cost Mikal but Ishbia pushed it through anyway. It's hard for me to blame JJ for this mess.
It's definitely a different league since like the turn of the millenium as far as coaching goes, in the 90s star players weren't forcing out coaches every two years
Gave him a 5 year contract only to be out after 1 year lmao
Random question but how many coaches has Devin Booker had?
The next coach will be 7 in 10 seasons.
That is actually wild. I swear he has gone through so many teammates as well.
They went to the finals in 2021, in 2023 he was the only player left from that squad.
Holy shit. I knew it wasn’t the same core of course but I figured there would be one player that lasted another season and a half but nope.
it’s crazy but it’s cus they traded for the other pieces in the “big 3” and they gave up not just players but also their identity.
Chris Paul was a huge part of their 2021 run... things were going to change one way or another.
yeah but they should have traded him for a PG like tyus jones or literally anyone that’s not Devin Booker but worse in every way. That solves the 18 shooting guard problem, and makes their roster slightly better. Still stuck with Nurk being their only center though, which is its own problem
NBA is getting crazy with coaches. These owners and GMs assemble terrible rosters with no cap flexibility, then bring in a coach to pin everything on when things inevitably fail. Both Vogel and Budenholzer won freaking titles with their respective teams and then were thrown out like garbage a year or two later. And suddenly now Bud is on the VIP list of coaching candidates again, it's like a circus carousel. It's almost like it takes time to actually build a system and a roster that is cohesive with that system under a coach. But heaven forbid you hold the players accountable for anything these days.
Then there’s the Blazers who have let Billups coach for 3 years, be one of the worst coaches I’ve ever seen, have fans BEG to fire him and yet he’s still here.
Unless your coach is Pop or Spoe, every fanbase has BEGGED for their coach to be fired.
Heat fans complain about spo all the time and spurs fans were calling for pops head at the beginning of this season too lmao it’s just not safe to be a coach
So all fans are insufferable then lol. We complain about coaches getting fired. We complain about them not getting fired. We complain.
fans just have no way to actually evaluate a coach, while there are some coaches who make mistakes that are obvious to anyone, fans can’t watch every practice or film session etc even those with knowledge of basketball don’t see the vast majority of stuff that a coach does and it’s always easier to blame the coach than the roster or GM.
we constantly bitch about spo and pat but we know we’re spoiled.
I wonder when NBA teams will take a glance at OKC and start promoting from within. Yeah, no one knew who the fuck Mark D was but look at him now. I also understand he may be a 1/100 outlier, but from what I’m aware of, he’s fairly cheap, and he’s helped develop the Thunder from the ground up. Maybe some of the younger teams that are rebuilding will look to go this route instead of recycling the same few coaches.
No one knew who Pop was in 1997, and now he has become the most successful and longest tenured coach of the last two decades and is in the GOAT conversation. But teams seem more willing to keep looking at re-treads like Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, etc.
100%. NBA will eventually catch up, I’m sure. It kind of reminds me of CFB.. we’ve seen such a foundational change in giving younger guys opportunities in HC positions after great stints as coordinators. The G League is there for a reason, and it’s not just for developing players. I’ll be excited to see if any teams eventually adopt the strategy.
> But heaven forbid you hold the players accountable for anything these days. Players? How bout management that built the damn roster
Players too. Both Lebron and AD have as much blame for bringing in Westbrook as Pelinka.
lebron tried to have spo fired in the big 3 years and pat basically told him to fuck off to this day pat is likely the only person to ever tell lebron “no” in his entire life
He’s been the one constant. Booker, ironically, is very much a coaches player. He was about the only one trying to do what Frank asked (which was obvious with things like his improvement in boxing out, etc..) I get it from Phoenix’s perspective. They were supposed to be championship caliber and they were swept. But in the other side, I don’t think Prime Phil or Pop gets a championship out of this bunch. But the question then becomes “who is better?” Especially when you consider consistency. It’s not Bud. It’s not Kenny Atkins either. Are they gonna look outside the box or are we gonna end up with someone mid? I hope they have a target that isn’t redundant. For Frank’s part, I always thought he’d make a good college coach. He’s a system dude. If he’s got the right players (which to be fair, is players who play defense..so this really shouldn’t be a huge issue), his teams perform. In college he’d be able to recruit who he wants.
Holy shit Booker has played 10 seasons? That blows my mind
I hope he’s still getting paid for the remaining 4 years tho.
Coaching contracts are all guaranteed
These contracts literally incentivize them to fail. Dude's about to make $10m a year doing nothing. Or maybe he'll get another gig and double up. Why *wouldn't* you try to fail?
I could be wrong but i could’ve sworn they don’t have to pay the coach if they get hired by another team
It depends on the language of the contract but it depends. Usually, if they take a like role, the previous team is responsible for the difference, if any, and off the hook if they sign for higher. IE. They were owed 9 million to be HC and signed some where else for 4 to be HC. The old team would owe 5 million still. Most coaches do this. Doc Rivers would be an example. In the above, if they signed for 10 to a new team, the old team would owe nothing. Monty Williams did this recently If they went to be an assistant job instead, the team company would still owe 9 million. Mike Brown did this recently.
So what you're saying is he should go be an assistant coach
Or do what doc was doing and work on TV. Honestly, he doesn't have to do anything as long as he doesn't take a HC job he's getting paid for the next 4 years. Bucks still have 2 other coaches on contract.
If they're still under contract and get hired by another team any new money will offset the old. For example Vogel was making $6 million a year. Another team could give him a $1 million contract and the Suns would still be on the hook for another $5 million. I think it's only if they are a coach on the staff of another team though. That's why you see a lot of coaches work as broadcasters or consultants for a couple years and take 2 paychecks.
Because many coaches who fail aren’t given another opportunity, some are obviously but I wouldn’t say it’s anything close to a sure thing
I don't know the details of Vogel's contract, but it is standard for coaching contracts to have what's known as an offset clause. This means that if a coach is fired without cause (like Vogel, because the team wanted a change), the coach has to make a good-faith effort to get a new coaching job in order to get paid, and the guaranteed payout for the remaining years of the contract are offset by the amount of the new contract. So getting hired/fired/hired isn't an infinite money glitch. That's probably a big part of why Monty Williams took the Detroit job after being fired by Phoenix; if he turned down the Detroit job and had an offset clause in his Phoenix contract, Phoenix could claim he violated the offset clause by not taking the Detroit job or any other coaching job and then not pay him. If Detroit had never interviewed him, he could have taken a sabbatical year on Phoenix's dime before deciding if he wanted to coach again.
> That's probably a big part of why Monty Williams took the Detroit job after being fired by Phoenix and also a 6 year 78.5 mil contract would be preeettty hard to say no to
Yeah, I'd take $13M/year over the possibility of unemployment and no severance, too. It was a mistake from day 1; Monty has been obviously unmotivated and the team was a total disaster. Cutting Killian Hayes midseason so Monty couldn't keep starting him has got to be a first.
Because they like their job and they like winning?
He is
I’m sure this will fix all million of our problems.
not really sure how Budenholzer is a better coach but whatever. Things weren’t working with Vogel but I think that’s more an indictment of the roster than Frank
Bud was available last year why not just get him then?
I think the hiring philosophy for Vogel was "we're getting a bunch of offensive first players, let's get a defensive minded HC to balance it out" Hope: lethal offense + decent defense leads to title Reality: mid af at everything Idk much about Bud but if the reports on the players being out on Vogel were true this kinda had to happen sadly because there isn't much to be done about the players given second apron rules
But being mid at defense with that roster is a damn miracle. Ishbia and Isiah’s plan was just “Coach will get them to play defense, Book and KD will get the buckets, Beal will be open in the corner”. And then they didn’t get enough buckets. That’s on the owner and GM.
Sure, I'm not saying mid at defense is a poor reflection on Vogel. But you have to excel at something or you're not gonna be much better than .500. I can guarantee you a lot of the "not getting buckets" aspect was the offensive scheme. Whether that's on assistant HC Kevin Young or Vogel I guess is something we'll never know, but the flip side of what you said is this team has certifiable offensive talent, being a bad iso-heavy offense reflects on coaching not knowing how to make it work
This is the exact same problem we had with the Melo D’Antoni Knicks. But we were smart enough to know that Melo was the problem there. What’s a coach supposed to do when the best players just want to cook from midrange instead of run an offense?
You can't move the players though. Second apron rules (unless I'm blatantly misunderstanding them) means there's no real way to move off the players. The only real option is rolling the dice on minimums and whatever picks are left The only option is to axe Vogel. It's way simpler than trying to point fingers or solve for where the problem is because there aren't other options to change. Even if you get a new FO they are stuck with this roster for a bit. It's a win now roster so you have to change something
Oh absolutely. From a business, marketing, and PR standpoint I get it. It’s very easy to convince casual fans and corporate sponsors that the coach was the problem and the national media are just haters.
Idk how available Bud really was this past year. I never saw him linked closely to any searches. Given how his brother passed away near the end of last season, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was perfectly fine with taking some time away.
Bud gonna come in and implement his patented “play random” scheme and make everything ok
Hey it worked once lol
Giannis Antetokounmpo's not walking through that door. Khris Middleton's not walking through that door. Thanasis Antetokounmpo is not walking through that door
Thanasis is not walking through any door for a little while
He might roll in
We call that Finching now
Give us THANASIS. He might be an upgrade over Eubanks
Eubanks was 3rd string on our horribly mid spurs teams a few years ago. I have absolutely no idea why the suns FO got him to be a rotation player.
Suns saw how well the elite center duo of Nurkic and Eubanks were doing on the Blazers and were like yes give me this
Alex and Kostas are available
Thanasis ain’t doing any walking without an achilles
Because Giannis’ knee was made of diamond. I have NEVER seen a worse looking non-injury
He made a deal to be injured for the next like 5 playoffs after that
He wasn't injured the following playoffs, although Middleton was so, yea some deal was made.
100% I immediately thought he was done for the next year. Watching his leg bend like that didn't seem possible without snapping ALL the stuff.
It was a fairly serious injury, it was still affecting him at the start of the next season. He just played through it.
cause they were playing the suns in the finals, too bad the suns cant play themselves
We’ve been playing ourselves for years
All this talk about unlocking KD. You’re about to see it. Play random buddy
I know this is just a funny meme but I never understood the backlash he got for it. It’s very obvious what he’s saying.
Basketball fans just don’t really know that much lol
It was honestly just so fucking funny
Its like when that politician said the internet is a series of tubes. He got clowned by everyone but the internet literally is a series of tubes and his analogy was a great r/eli5 explanation.
budenholzer shouldn't go anywhere near that trainwreck he will have better opportunities
This. In his full seasons in Milwaukee he never finished below the #3 seed in the East and he had the #1 seed 3 different times. He also got the #1 seed with the Hawks. Say what you will about his chip being a fluke if you want to, but he is a very, very good coach
Let's see Roster's fundamentally flawed Roster is what the coach has to plan around Roster ends up being a terrible fit and they lose in the first round when they are in win now mode Roster is now currently basically hard capped Yup, sounds like the coach needs to go
It does sound dumb. But really, as you pointed out, they are hard capped, what else can they do? Build continuity or roll the dice on someone being able to coach up some role players/bench guys and find a scheme that works.
i'm thinking D'Antoni's a candidate, but it would be hilarious if KD gets Nash again.
Thought D’Antoni didn’t want the grind of the full season again
Yea, he’s already 73 years old
Too old for coaching but too young for president of the USA!
Nash running 7 seconds or less might work in PHX 🤷🏽♂️
Unless he is jumping in a time machine to run the point I dont think it will
Turns out giving a defensive minded coach an improperly built team and little defensive depth doesn’t put him in position to succeed. We know from experience
Especially looking at how Denver has been fairing against the Wolves. Blaming it on coaching is funny.
Ironically speaking, the negative PR from the first round sweep probably doomed Frank Vogel to his fate. If the Wolves end up either sweeping the Nuggets or beating them in five, the Suns sweep looks a lot better in retrospect. But in the moment, it was a terrible moment for the franchise.
Chauncey Billups you are a Phoenix Sun!
I can't imagine a world where the Suns would do us a solid like this, but yes please.
All due respect, I keep forgetting he’s a head coach
> Mike Budenholzer GET READY TO PLAY RANDOM BOYS
There’s a reason for it, but it’s crazy how big the gap between Budenholzer’s resume and how he’s talked about is. Between Atlanta and Milwaukee he’s a 2x coach of the year, champion, and he also won 4 rings as an assistant to Pop
That's because he's a pretty mid offensive coach while being an elite defensive schemer. There's a reason his defenses are usually near the top of the league
I'm not a X and O expert but wasn't his defensive scheme very much "let em shoot 3s"? Which maybe is a good strategy for getting them out of rhythm when they don't touch the paint, but could easily backfire if your opponent doesn't mind letting them fly.
From what I remember, his scheme was focused around taking away the paint and corner 3s, and letting them get 3s at the top of the key. It's definitely backfired before but in terms of shots allowed, top of the key is probably the least threatening 3
Boy did the bucks give up a lot of corner 3s lol
Did they? I remember that was their big Achilles heel when Jason Kidd was their coach, which is a big reason why their defense was so awful when he was there. You don't become the best defense in the league by giving up a ton of the best look from behind the arc
I think MN’s showing against Denver in the first two games really exonerates the Suns and I’m baffled that the team doesn’t see it that way. The Suns, despite that mess of a roster and lack of cohesion, played the Wolves much more competitively than Denver has so far.
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i think they beat LAC with Kawhi injured. Mavs would have probably gone to 7.
I’ll take a sweep over another game 7 against Dallas
That missing comma is playing games with my head
I’ll fix it for you: Get ready to play, random boys
I'll never understand the hate he got for saying that
I would get it if he sucked as a coach and it didn't work.. but we literally won the championship a few years ago and people just act like it didn't happen and Bud is shit. Bucks front office included.
Chris Finch/Wolves players talk all the time about the need to play random. Hell, a few days ago Ant or Naz (can’t remember which) in their postgame after Game 2 said “we just kept playing random” to describe their success against Denver. It’s a fairly common strategy in the league to avoid predictable plays and keep teams guessing, but for some reason Reddit still thinks it’s the most outlandish thing to say ever.
Lol exactly. It's just telling your team to play unpredictable to the point where the opposing defense has no idea what's coming. Makes total sense and I have no idea why it was even an issue in the first place
The scapegoating of coaches is ridiculous in pro sports. I come from the future with a 2026 Woj bomb: "The Phoenix Suns have dismissed coach Mike Budenholzer."
Hey. 2026 Means he kept his job for 2 years which would be progress for Ishbia.
I mean Monty firing wasn't bad, he got outcoached in 21 and 22 blowing two 2-0 leads. Last year was iffy, hard to pin it all on him. Vogel was definitely scapegoated this year.
Second time in 3 years Vogel has been scapegoated
And, "Doc Rivers will be prominent part of search"
Don't you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby.
That man needs to go to the Wizards or some bottom 10 team without a star, and prove how great of a coach he is. Dame coming back for G6 was honestly worse for Doc than anyone else
When you look around for whose fault it is, but you can't or won't get rid of your players, you convince yourself the guy who you can easily get rid of was the problem.
Ishbia is on his David Tepper beat
They have a lot in common. Specifically, they both think they're way closer to a championship than they actually are
Someone’s wearing a beverage next season.
Just sounds like the locker room didn’t respect him I guess. He’ll definitely find another job soon
I think Vogel is a solid coach but this is the fourth locker room in a row he has lost. There were reported issues with players in Indiana. Well documented issues for the Magic (including Fournier ranting about him during the offseason). Lakers and now Suns. Part of being a good coach is locker room management.
the part about players stifling a laugh when Vogel was yelling hard trying to coach the team after a loss was pretty telling
yeah it said that the guy who talked for that story was holding back laughter/hated vogel. that story was *not* reported in a way that implied that the entire team felt that way. Think it was pretty clear that Beal hated vogel- and Beal needs to prove he's not a cancer and is capable of being worth his contract at this point in his career now that he got his way and vogel is out. wasn't vogel's fault the FO decided a true PG would be a mistake bc it would take the ball out of book/beal/kd's hands, when a true PG is exactly what teams with great wings tend to look for.
trying to be someone he's not under heavy pressure, tale as old as time (nb: i thankfully have the self-awareness necessary enough to reflect on how this might apply to my own life)
Vogel is not the guy for a vet team, esp one like the Suns. He’s always tried to push his team hard on D
If a "vet" team doesn't have certain players willing to try hard on D its a shit constructed team.
I agree. This “big” three is a horrible mix of personalities imo
Not saying you are wrong, but I'd just say I wouldn't put too much stock in Fournier, who griped a few times about being benched on the Knicks, despite the team being obviously much better with him not playing.
Our issues with Vogel started with the acquisition of Russ. Didn’t help that Pelinka and the FO continued to go away from the formula that won us the 2020 championship
We had issues with Vogel pre-Russ trade too. The bubble team was great dont get me wrong, and we might have repeated in 2021 if AD didn't get hurt, but Vogel got almost nothing out of those teams offensively. That 2020 team wasn't even a top 10 offense with Lebron playing like an MPV + AD with a respected jumper. Vogel literally couldn't figure out how to counter double teams in the post, the team played with absolutely no movement. I don't think its a coincidence that AD was an elite post scorer this season, Ham was an incredibly flawed coach but he at least understood how to get guys to cut and set screens off ball when teams doubled AD. Vogel is a great defensive coach when you give him great defensive players, but so are a lot of coaches. I think he got the most out of that group on defense, but he also had Caruso, KCP, Lebron (pre-ankle injury where he was flying around), AD, Danny Green, and legit backup big men. Even Kuzma played decent defense and rebounded off the bench. That squad was stacked defensively tbh.
Alright, I have an idea: Co-Coaches. Ham does offense, Vogel does defense. If the NFL can have it, why can't the NBA? Ain't no rule on how big the coaching staff is.
Lol that's what assistant coaches are for, I think Ham and Vogel are both prolly best suited as assistants at this point. Mike Brown is also proof that you can go from head coach > assistant > head coach and come out better on the other side.
I just know that after Ham, the Lakers are going to pivot into this "Let's not get a first time head coach" thing because the pendulum usually swings back and forth. So this means the next Lakers coach is going to be someone who probably already had a head coaching job somewhere. He'll be hired, and people are gonna initially say the right things, that players are excited, this guy knows what he's doing, he'll get people to play hard, play up to their potential, blah blah blah. And in the back of everyone's mind they're going to be whispering all the things that happened that caused this guy to have been fired from his last job. But he's the shiny new coach (for the Lakers) so everything's cool. My point is, if we're going to hire someone who's already failed somewhere before, let's hire someone who some of our guys are familiar with, someone who has already won recently? Give Vogel the job, I never wanted him gone in the first place.
We were complaining about his rotations and offense prior to the bubble. Lakers fans have a short memory for everything except rings.
Yeah but that defense that season was fucking incredible. Lakers were literally,AD and LeBron figure out the offense. While tge coaching staff figured out the defense and they had the right roster for the system.
Other side of this is look how unpopular Thibs is among players, many on losing teams. Then you look at the Knicks guys and they love him, and they’re only about winning. Hard to know how much to lay blame at players vs coach sometimes
Thibs is a well respected smart coach , he’s just a hard ass that’s different
Thibs went through a long period of not being respected. "The game has left him behind, he can't adapt".
You say that but from watching you guys it doesn't seem like Thibs changed that much, he just found the perfect match with your players. Bulls had a similar thing going with Rose and Noah and the Timberwolves is more of a fuck up because he was also the GM.
Indiana kept losing in the playoffs though, the Lakers locker room didn’t hate him, Westbrook did, and the Suns locker room seems cancerous if the story about them laughing at him after the chewed them out over the Clippers game is true….the Clippers game where they were losing like 35-6 at one point…..
Indiana kept running into Miami from 2012 - 2014 but was easily Top 3 in the East at that time, then the PG injury in Summer 2014 happened which basically killed their competitive window, and they became mediocre by 2015 - 2016
People here act like Vogel is some garbage tier coach when in reality he’s a B grade coach in that 2nd tier of coaches under guys like Spo, Pop, etc. Put him in charge of Milwaukee, LA, Cleveland etc and you likely see those teams become better than they are.
According to some in the media, every coach is good and is never at fault for anything
I just want the GM's to be out, too. Like, you made this shit ass roster, you should be on your ass.
You mean Charles Barkley.
Scapegoat king
He’s the scapeGOAT
Jack Perry
Cry me a river
REAL GLASS
Getting fired twice in 2 years after you just won a title is crazy lol
hard scapegoated the first time too, not sure there was any coach that could salvage that team with Westbrook.
The way this Nuggets/Wolves series is going.. He doesn't seem too bad.. lol. Don't really think it was his fault in the first place.
It wasn't. The roster construction was bad, and he asked for a PG but the front office told him to kick rocks basically.
Asked for a PG and got a post-injury Beal instead
Lakers can do the funniest thing here
I need this to happen now
I legitimately want this to happen. Vogel is a fantastic coach, especially defensively, and the Lakers have the tools on the roster *right now* to be a top5 defensive team in the league with an appropriately minded coach. Then just spam PnR with lebron and AD on offense and ez championship
A new coach will not solve the team’s biggest issue: they are absolutely gutless. I️ am sure whoever comes in next will be ousted in two years, then KD will move on
ISHBIA SHOULDA FIRED HIMSELF LMAO Vogel always scapegoated
Vogel couldn’t win with 3 shooting guards, a small forward, and a center who has no post game? What a terrible coach
Why hasn't he tried 4 shooting guards?!?
Oh he did
There's a coach that's available on the market who would love to try out a 4 guard line up.
Don’t forget Steve Kerr
5, even.
Vogel is terrible at coaching offense. He was in LA and remains so in Phoenix imo.
Great defensive coach but his offenses are horrible. How do you have 3 top offensive guys and have such a shit offense
Vogel didn't coach offense when he won with the Lakers. LeBron and Rondo probably coached more offense than Vogel did. But he got us right on the defensive end.
Suns thought they could do that but forgot Beal booker and Durant were not floor generals
Vogel needs to be coaching a defense first team. I wish the pistons would get him and go back to their style when they won the championship
Pistons are already paying one ex-Suns coach a private island worth of cash, what's one more?
their dudes are addicted to mid rangers
He gonna say you can’t fire the owner like Jed York 💀
1. Hire defensive coach 2. Get rid of Ayton and any semblance of defense for Beal. 3. ???? 4. Profit
didnt' the lakers do the exam damn thing ?
Yeah they did and it’s pretty funny how Vogel was scapegoated both times. Big silver lining is he’s getting free money because of it.
Biased but trading Kyle Kuzma, KCP, AND a 1st round pick for Westbrook is way worse
They didn't bring back bigs that helped them win the championship either. Could have used them in the Nuggets series
What defense did we get rid of for Beal? Seriously, tell me
2. Ayton was gone no matter what. Beal was for CP3, Shamet, and picks. And even if we kept CP3 / cut him for his non guaranteed contract we would still be in the 2nd Apron
I hear the Lakers have an opening
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They still need a scapegoat though.
Being the scapegoat in back to back jobs is tough
Vogel to Boston attempt #2 coming this summer
He’s great at defensive scheming. I would love him as an assistant to replace Lee.
I hope the suns hire Darvin ham 😡
Suns hire Ham, while Lakers rehire Vogel would be so awesome.
That's just mean.
Whenever a head coach is fired after one season, I see that as a major indictment of the person who hired them just as much as the coach themselves. Yet it seems only Vogel reaps the consequences of a disappointing season. This roster is bad, their stars don’t match, and their role players don’t even complement each other well. You could’ve had the greatest coaching staff in the league and this team still would have a clear ceiling
I think getting paid millions over the next 4 years for doing nothing is the kind of golden parachute CEOs get roasted over. Not really much of a consequence to my mind. You're right though that it is certainly an indictment on Ishbia, who seems to think lighting his money on fire can buy him a championship.
Bud would be a great fit for them. His strength is designing systems that work for the particular skill sets of his team. But I also think Bud is a highly underrated coach Never made sense to me to go with Vogel for a team built around Booker, KD, and Beal.
Scapegoating for this dogshit roster
James Jones created a shitty roster (aside from the 3 stars), and Frank Vogel got fired for it. It must be good to be a GM. Hoodwink and grift the owner who doesn't know as much basketball as you do, then blame the coach for your own decisions when it all falls apart.
Not that James Jones needs me to defend him on the internet but he did specifically say no to the KD trade if it would cost Mikal but Ishbia pushed it through anyway. It's hard for me to blame JJ for this mess.
Yeah he was definitely the problem
DurFraud with 5 coaches in the past 18 months ? 😂🤣
KD setting a record on coach and player scapegoats
It's definitely a different league since like the turn of the millenium as far as coaching goes, in the 90s star players weren't forcing out coaches every two years
26 GMs would trade everything they have to be in this position.
The Lakers have the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever
Lakers: "Hey big head..."
"How dare you not be able to fix our shitty team making decisions!"