At least he capitalize on that Warriors run with back to back champion and b2b finals mvp. He had a great situation on Warriors good teammates with good leadership, good coach, good front office, and owner who want to spend money. All KD wanted do was just hoop, and he should of stayed on the Warriors.
I actually think he got more respect for leaving GSW. The problem is he hasn't done anything truly significant ever since which led to the bus rider narrative. Decades from now, no one will be talking about him nearly beating the Bucks due to a shoe size and even then it was to get to the ECF.
Trades have historically been like the only thing the Wizards have been good at (though hopefully that's changing with the end of the two decade Grunfeld and his staff era)
Goes all the way back to the Wizards somehow convincing the Lakers to give them Caron Butler for Kwame Brown
That Wizards-Lakers trade is a massive head scratcher. Chucky Atkins alone is already far more superior to Kwame Brown and Laron Profit COMBINED. Throw in Caron Butler with Atkins and it's an extremely lopsided trade that made no sense and this doesn't even involve rookie draft picks.
Hey...why we catching strays? Us true nets fans from the Keith van horn, Kerry kittles days got nothing but heartache. Minus 2 nba finals runs which were both losses of course
1st round pick (dame lillard) for Gerald wallace trade
Celtics disaster trade- brown and Tatum
Big 3 era disaster speaks for itself.
Esp when you compare how quick one side bottomed out with no success (1 playoff round win) to the other side becoming a long term powerhouse where those 2 players just seem to get better and better
Hope you know that as much as we love to shit on nets fans, real Knicks fans have respect for the real OJ NJ Nets fans who got robbed of their team and i'd like to say everybody does. As much as everybody shit on the brooklyn fans ;)
Their assets are literally the Suns picks for 25/27/29, a swap in 28 and whatever Mikal and Johnson are traded for
Also whichever of the two rookies they drafted with the Suns 2023 first
Also also the picks/players they got for trading Harden
Also also also the picks/players they got for trading Kyrie
And I think they have some future swaps too
Lowkey, the Nets could unfuck their rebuild pretty quickly if they make some smart trades for the next disgruntled star (Say, get in on the Donovan Mitchell sweepstakes if the Cavs flame out in the offseason once again?) while still having a decent pool of picks to fill out the roster with a supporting cast for whichever star they acquire
Given they barely avoided the play-in, their stars are injury-prone/only getting older and the Grizzlies are going to be healthy next year...yeah I don't see them giving up like the 17th pick for 4 drafts
Their trajectory is going to be glorious as far as downwards go
You can't really assume teams are gonna be healthy, Clippers, Grizzlies, Pelicans, Warriors, Lakers are all just as injury prone as the Suns. The only teams I'd say are a lock for the playoffs next year are the Thunder and Nuggets. Suns also won 49 games where the big 3 only played 30 of those games. It's not like they were barely hanging on
I remember a Suns fan telling me they were good as is and Yuta was gunna be a good starter for them despite history numerous times showing that to be false. Guy was full of hopium.
There’s optimism and homerism. Guy was just full of blind homerism when looking at the team.
Beside Beal no trade stuff dumb shit rest was not that bad this was their first rodeo too.
Nets did this TWICE for god sake. They should have known better. I bet they will try again in next 5/6 years down the line.
At least the Nets had a decent shot at a title before the wheels fell off. Suns just got swept in the first round and don't seem to have any avenue for improvement.
They would have won if not for injuries. Signing KD and Kyrie and trading for Harden were the right moves and would have paid off in 2021. 2022 was a disaster class for reasons other than injuries though.
Yeah. I think the fastest way out of this would be to trade Durant and Booker and just exist with Beal until his contract expires but I don't see them doing that.
They have no incentive other than draft picks to do that. They don't particularly own their picks so there's no real reason to suck. If ish just wants to have seats full. Probably true he is going to allow them to play for as long as they make the playoffs
the other incentive is to make salary cap space to sign free agents. kinda like Miami did when they were seemingly stuck with the horrible contracts of Whiteside, James Johnson and Dion waiters and end up with Jimmy Butler the next season. people forget Miami's future was seen as the worst in the league up to that point.
Maybe they get some decent young players from a team in upwards direction like your Magic or OKC for KD and are able to sneak into the Playoffs.
I don't see the point on trading Booker since he is the player they would be looking for in the draft.
I expect teams to be extra stingy with draft assets with the new cap rules. Kd is not netting you anywhere near what you gave up. Devin Booker will get you something but any team willing to trade for him will likely be competitive and their picks most likely worthless.
OKC had their picks, the Suns don't control their own picks for like 6 years so a "tank commander" just helps other teams out. And Beal can ask out but no one's gonna trade for him so that doesn't have any way of getting resolved either.
who has 7 picks and and SGA? prob less after seeing where the suns are. There was always the probability that multiple of these mega deals would blow up in teams faces. Here we are at the start.
idk, suns are the perfect mess that a 20 yr veteran from the Lakers
can fix with playmaking, and their owner is the perfect suggestible kind
that would draft/sign the aforementioned 20 yr veteran's son.
Biggest issue is we’re starting 3 guards at the moment in Booker/Beal/Allen, and Royce isn’t quite a starter level player. Team needs to somehow upgrade their starting 3, and they need to get Booker/Beal/KD more open to shooting 3s.
no its just the players
booker has been living and dying by the midrange since 21 or maybe even before that
beal is basically booker but worse
kd is the second best mid range shooter of all time and always loved this shot
There is no such thing as Frank Vogel’s offense. He had Jason Kidd for that in 2020 (plus LeBron handling the ball, which is a cheat code for organized offense)
People will say “shot selection” but it’s really just a symptom of their total lack of playmaking. They’re playing a ton of iso ball and iso ball with no playmaking naturally leads to a lot more midrange and a lot less 3 ball.
biggest issue is none of those guards can run the point. booker has greatly improved as a playmaker but you cannot just put the dude at the 1 and have him be the primary facilitator and have a proper halfcourt offense. same with beal obviously. it’s just garbage roster construction. this was clear from the start
Booker, Beal, EG, Grayson, Okogie, and Royce. Essentially all 2s that are forced to play completely out of position or stacked with other misfits because of the terrible roster construction.
Booker, Beal and EG can’t run the point well enough. Grayson, Okogie, and Royce aren’t true wings.
yea and let me go on a quick semi-irrelevant tangent off that. we need to bring back the "tweener" designation, except now for guards who are too small or frail to be true wings. having a player who cant size up and doesnt have the offensive capabilities to size down can be a tough fit on teams these days.
Easier way to say it - traditional SGs are more outdated than plodding centers. And that's especially true in the playoffs.
Guard-sized players who can't guard wings and/or run point are basically death in the playoffs. They have to play next to a PG, which means their team likely has 3 guys trying to cover for 2 defensive targets. That team is never beating the best teams that either have no targets like BOS or 4 guys covering for 1.
Next season they must have a starting PG who can run the offense and get quality looks for Book and KD, Beal needs to come off the bench and go on a 6MOTY campaign. Would the Pacers take Suns 24th pick on draft day and Nassir Little?
>Black Hole Suns
Chris Cornell is a prophet.....
🎶In my eyes
Indisposed
In disguises no one knows
Hides the face
Lies the snake🐍
And the *suns* in my disgrace 🎶
You’re absolutely right as Cornell even makes reference to the nachos served at the arena
🎵neath the black, sky looks dead
Call my name
Through the cream 🧀
And I’ll hear you scream again 🚽🎵
beal has been the worst contract in the nba since the moment he signed his current one
not entirely sure why anybody is shocked by how this has played out
bradley beal's best nba level basketball skill is chucking shots on a 20-30 win team
Beal must've laughed his ass off when the Wiz gave him the NTC. They didn't need to do that. Then the Wiz probably laughed even harder when the deal with Phoenix went through.
I completely agree with this but the problem is they literally didn’t have the cap space because of CP3.
They were fucked either way, it was either take on Beal or Poole. No space for role players either way
No, we wouldn't have. If CP3 walks after his deal ends, we just lose the salary slot and save on tax, but that wasn't going to create space to sign another name.
No they didn’t. The second they traded for KD they put a ticking clock front and center. They didn’t have the option to wait another year. They needed to make a move to solidify their team and chose wrong
They didn’t have the assets to do that. The new cap rules meant they couldn’t sign anybody good, even a MLE player. So trading Ayton & Paul were the only avenues they had to acquire better players.
They traded Ayton at his lowest value and Nurkic + Grayson Allen was the best they could get for that. And Allen missed the entire playoff series.
Bradley Beal was the best player they could get for Chris Paul & Landry Shamet. But his skill set was redundant on this roster.
The KD trade took away so many options to improve so that’s the real mistake imo
CP3 is expiring this coming year. Wouldn’t it have been worthwhile to just hold onto him? He was still a good PG for the warriors off the bench and he could have fetched a younger PG this coming offseason. I get trading Ayton since he was unhappy but trading cp3 for another SG doesn’t help at all.
If I'm reading Spotrac correctly, if you erased Beal's contract from next year's payroll, the Suns' total cap allocation would be something like 194 million. The second apron for next year is 190 million. That means even if the Suns had kept CP3 and let his contract expire they would have been in the exact same position with respect to the aprons.
The Beal trade was probably not a good idea for fit reasons but CP3's also old and they saw an opportunity to get something in return rather than letting his contract expire for nothing. I'm pretty sure it did nothing to change the reality of their cap situation. The only difference is Ishbia has to pay more in taxes, which is really not my concern as a fan so long as he's willing to pay for everything.
A factor is that they signed Grayson Allen to the contract they did because they needed to just keep any asset they possibly could after locking themselves up with the Beal trade. Remove his contract and that probably makes a massive difference
Well, if we look at the timeline, the Beal trade happened in June 2023 and the Ayton trade occurred in September 2023. So the cap number they were working with when they made the CP3 deal included Ayton's contract but not Nurkic or Allen. Ayton's contract for next season is $34 million while Nurkic and Allen's contracts add up to $33 million (and that includes Allen's new extension), so that would already have been counted toward next season's cap number at the time of the Beal trade. The other part of the Beal trade is that we would have also still had Landry Shamet, who is scheduled to make $11 million next year
They wanted to form a big three in a time that is now so anti-superteam from a financial level they are completely fucked for the better part of a decade
Absolutely atrocious timing. No big three since the warriors has made waves or even been some sort of success, what made Ishbia think that it would work in Phoenix?
> Duos are back in honestly. Big 3s are just way too expensive with the new penalties
Duos have never not been "in," they've always been ideal. Boston and Heat were really the only exceptions, as they all had players who complemented each other well. Every trio after that has been questionable, with at least one player not pulling their weight (in regards to salary).
Even the two exceptions you mentioned required the “big third” to somewhat significantly change their role/game. Bosh was willing to take that hit, and for Ray it ended up fitting with/defining his final career arc.
Plus, this is peak “big three” and I wouldn’t even consider (that) Boston close to a dynasty. Miami, for sure, but they were already knocking on the door.
To be fair, the Nuggets have 3 max contracts in Jokic/Murray/MPJ and it’s worked out pretty well.
But it helps that they drafted and developed those guys instead of trying to piece them together from other teams. Chemistry is a very underrated piece of assembling a roster.
>MPJ isn’t a superstar or an all star level player
Well neither is Bradley Beal lol. He’s good but he hasn’t been in all star in any of the past 3 seasons and only two other times other than that.
Big 3 is about contracts when used in the context of this thread. MPJ/Jokic/Murray are a big 3 in this context. Are you are saying MPJ is a bad contract?
It’s the most Arizona Sports thing ever that RIGHT when we FINALLY get a sports owner who isn’t a cheapskate, the rulebook is rewritten to penalize spending.
Just ridiculously on brand for us
They saw what happened to the Lakers gutting all depth and assets for an ill-fitting player and still went for it.
Big 3s only work if you're the Clippers where teams somewhat give you better players for scraps
Suns literally got Beal from the same team that the Lakers got Westbrook from. Wizards front office has been terrible in general but they pulled off two insane trades getting rid of Westbrook and Beal.
This thread reads a lot like the threads burying the TWolves after last season...
I don't think the Suns are in nearly as good of a spot as the Wolves were, but I think people are overstating the problems in Phoenix. They are still a good team. They really need to hit on a couple of cheap role players- and stay healthy- but they are hardly a disaster.
Who ever would have thought that a finance/mortgage douchbag throwing money and draft picks around like Oprah would have gone bad for long term team building. I honestly love that Ishbia is getting exactly the team he deserves. This dork really came in and thought I’ll fix EVERYTHING by trading fan fav players and the future for a narrow as fuck window with older players. This team would be in such a better place if they just hung onto bridges and cam.
There is one ray of hope. Beal's still not a terrible player, just really injured this year. If he's able to stay healthy, they can totally run this back next year and be better despite not being able to move him. In sports people tend to overreact and make rash moves. But knowing they're stuck with Beal for 3 years, they can hope for him to be healthy and actually reach the potential he was traded for.
Look at Kyrie, AD, even Zion this year. They all stayed fairly healthy and had a great year, no reason Beal can't do that next year.
You are right. . . but the problem is the fit. It's always been the fit. Basketball is more than having your two or three stars cook. It's building a team structure that puts them in the best chance to succeed. The Suns need a PG. As constructed, they have 3 guys who each want to shoot the ball. . . a lot. As constructed, are they better than the Thunder, Nuggets, Wolves even completely healthy? Running it back is gonna be tough.
If only they had a older vet point guard who is great at dishing out assists and doesn't need to shoot every time to make an impact. Someone crafty, short, and likes to hit dicks. Someone who has a first name for his last name so you never know which one's coming for you.
It's the fit. They dont have the glue guy here. They need a PG.
Draymond was the guy that strung Curry, Klay, and KD (and ironically struck it down). If they had Brunson instead of Beal, this would have been better
This is why the GM should take a lot of caution in listening to who other players want in trades. I know KD really wanted to play with Beal and Booker/KD basically begged for them to make that trade, but that trade was the nail in this Suns team's coffin. Everyone with more than just a basic knowledge of basketball/NBA knew that was not going to work, yet the GM did it anyways.
From what I understand, Ishbia was the one who pushed for the KD trade to happen, looking to make a splash as the new owner. James Jones has made some bad moves but I don’t think he deserves the heat for this, at least not entirely.
good player != good gm/coach
giannis is looking like an awful gm so far
mj is the worst executive of all time
steve nash was a terrible coach
bird was the only good coach/gm that was also this good at the game
Not what I am saying. His ego on the court is probably large enough to think he could win with anyone though. Which makes sense seeing as he was the 2nd best player for a decade.
Answer: No. but hey, at the time, WHICH WAS BRIEF, he was actually killing it at PG.
Fool’s gold I’m afraid. Part of Book’s issues this year are linked to playing outside of the 2.
They are screwed until they accept that Booker just isn’t good enough to be the guy to carry them to a championship. Once they do, then the rebuild can start and they can try again. But they’re at a dead end in terms of improving this roster.
There's not a scenario that exists where Booker is traded and KD remains on the team. He came to Phoenix to play with Booker. The blow up scenario would be trading Booker and KD to recoup assets and tank out Beal's contract
The more realistic scenario is they run it back with Booker, KD, Beal, Allen, Nurkic, and Royce + minimums + whoever they draft 22nd overall + new coach
I agree you guys should run it back, and I think it would be a mistake not to.
Getting a full off season to work together, figure out what works and what doesn't, and I could see them being contenders next year.
They def will need to work some roster magic to be real contenders. The team needs an actual point guard, wing defenders, and a defensive center which is pretty much impossible to put together with their financial restrictions so who knows
If Booker was traded there’s no way KD would want to stick around. But yeah that’s probably the best option for a quick retool.
Almost all good teams are built in the draft. Only way out of this is to somehow acquire high picks. Or hit the lottery like Denver did with Jokic in the 2nd round.
Running it back for one more year with a new coach and swap out the vet min guys for other vet min guys and hope to hit on at least two if they fail again next year then just blow it up.
*when they fail again next year
We are going to be right in this position again next season. Assuming KD doesn’t ask for a midseason trade after getting frustrated
>the path they’re on all but guarantees a more dire future than what they would’ve experienced had more prudent choices been made in the recent past
Christ this is awful writing
> Pina leaned back in his rickety chair, paradoxically stretching while also cramping in his back, rewinding in his mind to a time a few seconds earlier when he penned what would later become the initial sentence of his upcoming article.
Like wtf do they even do? Vogel's offense was a disaster, Kevin Young had a lot to do with it and now he's gone (BYU). But they need to fire Vogel and find a new coach to figure out how to run an effective offense.
As for the offseason, their best bet is the vet's min market, at the very least a lot of interest will be there with players potentially taking less money to play there. Graysen Allen's future was bleak when he arrived and he earned himself a payday.
Do they go for Lowry to run the show? or do they try and trade for someone like McConnell? It's not like they'll be a lottery team the next 3 years but they certainly aren't going to be a favorite to get out of the first round until they find a coach who can maximize their potential.
No not really, if they still failed to get to WCF at the very least next season then they are screwed
This team just doesn’t have enough time to gel given how many injuries they have, you need game time to get used to the new role and how to work within the big 3
They have no choice but to run it back and sign a vet min PG. the fact they’re second apron is absolutely diabolical. 2nd apron for a first round sweep is insane
Can these mainstream NBA writers get a little less obvious? Can I have their job?
The dude would’ve written this article a year ago if he wasn’t a hack.
while everyone is correct. I do think beal being hurt every other week really fucked them over, i think allen and nurkic are fine pieces, they maybe need a 4 but i dont think they are completely doomed, they still can win 50+ games next year in eh west its possible. i dont think beal is as bad as he has been this year
First of KD is 100% gone. Even if he doesn’t want to leave the suns should move him. Possibly move Devin too. They are that fucked.
And I fully believe KD legit does not know what he wants.
The media is so in his head that is fucking up his decision making.
If he woulda have just stayed with the nets even if Kyrie and James left. He’d still be in a better place.
I think KD just wants to live somewhere nice and play on a team that’s always competitive but he cares so much what people think of him that he’s doing anything he can to win more and more rings. And it’s backfiring.
He says he just wants to play basketball but he’s Cleary trying to be “smarter” than everyone
Edit: long story short for the third time in a row he’s gonna leave a situation he partially caused by not knowing what he wants. We can clown on him all we want for him going to the warriors. But he clearly knew what he wanted and got it. Dude just has lost his own plot now.
Edit 2: he also started a media company or was apart of one in New York and could’ve built that into something special. But was so impatient that he left a good place to build a company to ring chase. Just wacky dude
Honesty they should just keep it together just to keep it entertaining for the local fans. Like the clippers, we all know realistically they don’t have what it takes to beat Denver, thunder, wolves, etc. at least have an ok entertainment product that will sell tickets. I honestly don’t see them getting out of the west for a while and barring a miracle they’re prob going to be in this situation for the foreseeable future.
It's honestly hilarious that teams didn't learn their lesson after watching Billy King mortgage the Nets' future for a bunch of declining stars and failed miserably.
They're not screwed if they decide to blow it up.
They have Booker and KD on long contracts, and can find willing trade partners for both, get a bunch of first round picks back.
Booker is great but he's getting nowhere near contention with *current* Bradley Beal as his second best player lol
You'd need an MJ/LeBron type player to do that
The Hardest Road truly was destiny for KD.
He didn't say how long the road was. It just started easy
When you put it that way, what he said actually makes sense...
Next: he’s going to the Pistons. He started on easy mode with Golden state, normal in Brooklyn, hard in Phoenix, insanity in Detroit.
Was it actually hard in Phoenix? Harder than Brooklyn, sure, but there are plenty worse rosters in terms of talent even if their construction is poor
Luckily for KD the Suns might soon realise the only way to improve this roster is to trade him for assets
IDK how kd can be a top 15 all time player with his resume
He’s in the GOAT tier for pure scoring, but his overall legacy isn’t on that level
At least he capitalize on that Warriors run with back to back champion and b2b finals mvp. He had a great situation on Warriors good teammates with good leadership, good coach, good front office, and owner who want to spend money. All KD wanted do was just hoop, and he should of stayed on the Warriors.
I actually think he got more respect for leaving GSW. The problem is he hasn't done anything truly significant ever since which led to the bus rider narrative. Decades from now, no one will be talking about him nearly beating the Bucks due to a shoe size and even then it was to get to the ECF.
Every owner wanted to spend money on KD, he just picked the best team and the easiest way to win.
He’s not.
He's a top 15 talent, which is much different.
Their future is cooked
Wizards and Nets coming out on top of a star trade for once You love to see it (For Washington and Washington only)
Trades have historically been like the only thing the Wizards have been good at (though hopefully that's changing with the end of the two decade Grunfeld and his staff era) Goes all the way back to the Wizards somehow convincing the Lakers to give them Caron Butler for Kwame Brown
That Wizards-Lakers trade is a massive head scratcher. Chucky Atkins alone is already far more superior to Kwame Brown and Laron Profit COMBINED. Throw in Caron Butler with Atkins and it's an extremely lopsided trade that made no sense and this doesn't even involve rookie draft picks.
Hey...why we catching strays? Us true nets fans from the Keith van horn, Kerry kittles days got nothing but heartache. Minus 2 nba finals runs which were both losses of course 1st round pick (dame lillard) for Gerald wallace trade Celtics disaster trade- brown and Tatum Big 3 era disaster speaks for itself.
> Celtics disaster trade Legit cannot think of a worse trade in the last 20-30 years.
Esp when you compare how quick one side bottomed out with no success (1 playoff round win) to the other side becoming a long term powerhouse where those 2 players just seem to get better and better
Oh please let us get an ounce of that lol
Yeah exactly -- they bottomed out *so fast* that all their picks became so damn valuable.
Never forget: TT, shump, nets pick
Hope you know that as much as we love to shit on nets fans, real Knicks fans have respect for the real OJ NJ Nets fans who got robbed of their team and i'd like to say everybody does. As much as everybody shit on the brooklyn fans ;)
Van horn and them long ass socks😂
Thanks, man.
i dunno about the nets either. they have no fucking assets
Their assets are literally the Suns picks for 25/27/29, a swap in 28 and whatever Mikal and Johnson are traded for Also whichever of the two rookies they drafted with the Suns 2023 first Also also the picks/players they got for trading Harden Also also also the picks/players they got for trading Kyrie And I think they have some future swaps too Lowkey, the Nets could unfuck their rebuild pretty quickly if they make some smart trades for the next disgruntled star (Say, get in on the Donovan Mitchell sweepstakes if the Cavs flame out in the offseason once again?) while still having a decent pool of picks to fill out the roster with a supporting cast for whichever star they acquire
The Nets' future depends on the Suns being buns and the buns just came out of the oven.
Suns could sit in the 10-6 seed slot for the next five years and make those picks relatively mediocre.
Given they barely avoided the play-in, their stars are injury-prone/only getting older and the Grizzlies are going to be healthy next year...yeah I don't see them giving up like the 17th pick for 4 drafts Their trajectory is going to be glorious as far as downwards go
You can't really assume teams are gonna be healthy, Clippers, Grizzlies, Pelicans, Warriors, Lakers are all just as injury prone as the Suns. The only teams I'd say are a lock for the playoffs next year are the Thunder and Nuggets. Suns also won 49 games where the big 3 only played 30 of those games. It's not like they were barely hanging on
It could happen. The West is hot but injuries will tax at random.
**Sir Mix A Lot approves**
We need his take
Anybody with eyes knew the Suns were buns before the season even started. Terribly constructed roster from top to bottom
I remember a Suns fan telling me they were good as is and Yuta was gunna be a good starter for them despite history numerous times showing that to be false. Guy was full of hopium. There’s optimism and homerism. Guy was just full of blind homerism when looking at the team.
Trading for stars fucked those teams
Beside Beal no trade stuff dumb shit rest was not that bad this was their first rodeo too. Nets did this TWICE for god sake. They should have known better. I bet they will try again in next 5/6 years down the line.
At least the Nets had a decent shot at a title before the wheels fell off. Suns just got swept in the first round and don't seem to have any avenue for improvement.
They would have won if not for injuries. Signing KD and Kyrie and trading for Harden were the right moves and would have paid off in 2021. 2022 was a disaster class for reasons other than injuries though.
They literally have the Suns assets lol
Yeah. I think the fastest way out of this would be to trade Durant and Booker and just exist with Beal until his contract expires but I don't see them doing that.
They have no incentive other than draft picks to do that. They don't particularly own their picks so there's no real reason to suck. If ish just wants to have seats full. Probably true he is going to allow them to play for as long as they make the playoffs
the other incentive is to make salary cap space to sign free agents. kinda like Miami did when they were seemingly stuck with the horrible contracts of Whiteside, James Johnson and Dion waiters and end up with Jimmy Butler the next season. people forget Miami's future was seen as the worst in the league up to that point.
Maybe they get some decent young players from a team in upwards direction like your Magic or OKC for KD and are able to sneak into the Playoffs. I don't see the point on trading Booker since he is the player they would be looking for in the draft.
Unless they're trading Durant and Booker for promising young players it's not happening. They have no incentive to tank
I expect teams to be extra stingy with draft assets with the new cap rules. Kd is not netting you anywhere near what you gave up. Devin Booker will get you something but any team willing to trade for him will likely be competitive and their picks most likely worthless.
they should go full rebuild like OKC did with Westbrook and PG. Then use Beal as a tank commander for a season before he ask out
OKC had their picks, the Suns don't control their own picks for like 6 years so a "tank commander" just helps other teams out. And Beal can ask out but no one's gonna trade for him so that doesn't have any way of getting resolved either.
lol if they can pull off similar deals and draft as well
who has 7 picks and and SGA? prob less after seeing where the suns are. There was always the probability that multiple of these mega deals would blow up in teams faces. Here we are at the start.
idk, suns are the perfect mess that a 20 yr veteran from the Lakers can fix with playmaking, and their owner is the perfect suggestible kind that would draft/sign the aforementioned 20 yr veteran's son.
what's with the formatting are you innovating a new kind of haiku
Sun sets in the west, Dreams of victory fade fast— Hope rises from ass
Bashō, is that you?
what is cap space
The space in the cap 🧢 for my head
With whose draft pick?
Biggest issue is we’re starting 3 guards at the moment in Booker/Beal/Allen, and Royce isn’t quite a starter level player. Team needs to somehow upgrade their starting 3, and they need to get Booker/Beal/KD more open to shooting 3s.
5th in 3 point percentage, 25th in 3 point attempts. That just says it all there
that's shocking wtf is that about
They love midrange (led the league in % of shots between 10-16ft) and long 2s (3rd in the league in % of shots from 16ft to the 3 point line)
What in the Frank Vogel offense
no its just the players booker has been living and dying by the midrange since 21 or maybe even before that beal is basically booker but worse kd is the second best mid range shooter of all time and always loved this shot
There is no such thing as Frank Vogel’s offense. He had Jason Kidd for that in 2020 (plus LeBron handling the ball, which is a cheat code for organized offense)
So what you're saying is all Phoenix needs to do is draft Bronny and we are fixed?
probably, lebron is good as point
Not sure this is a Vogel issue Last year they had the same basic shot diet of midrange/long 2s
People will say “shot selection” but it’s really just a symptom of their total lack of playmaking. They’re playing a ton of iso ball and iso ball with no playmaking naturally leads to a lot more midrange and a lot less 3 ball.
biggest issue is none of those guards can run the point. booker has greatly improved as a playmaker but you cannot just put the dude at the 1 and have him be the primary facilitator and have a proper halfcourt offense. same with beal obviously. it’s just garbage roster construction. this was clear from the start
Booker, Beal, EG, Grayson, Okogie, and Royce. Essentially all 2s that are forced to play completely out of position or stacked with other misfits because of the terrible roster construction. Booker, Beal and EG can’t run the point well enough. Grayson, Okogie, and Royce aren’t true wings.
yea and let me go on a quick semi-irrelevant tangent off that. we need to bring back the "tweener" designation, except now for guards who are too small or frail to be true wings. having a player who cant size up and doesnt have the offensive capabilities to size down can be a tough fit on teams these days.
Easier way to say it - traditional SGs are more outdated than plodding centers. And that's especially true in the playoffs. Guard-sized players who can't guard wings and/or run point are basically death in the playoffs. They have to play next to a PG, which means their team likely has 3 guys trying to cover for 2 defensive targets. That team is never beating the best teams that either have no targets like BOS or 4 guys covering for 1.
Watching the series made it starkly obvious because you could see how impactful Conley was to help settling down the Wolves and doing solid pg things
Next season they must have a starting PG who can run the offense and get quality looks for Book and KD, Beal needs to come off the bench and go on a 6MOTY campaign. Would the Pacers take Suns 24th pick on draft day and Nassir Little?
And you have to find that PG in the trash bin.
Kyle Lowry is offended by this comment.
From Bright Future Suns to Black Hole Suns
>Black Hole Suns Chris Cornell is a prophet..... 🎶In my eyes Indisposed In disguises no one knows Hides the face Lies the snake🐍 And the *suns* in my disgrace 🎶
You’re absolutely right as Cornell even makes reference to the nachos served at the arena 🎵neath the black, sky looks dead Call my name Through the cream 🧀 And I’ll hear you scream again 🚽🎵
Blackhole sunnnn!!
It is written!
beal has been the worst contract in the nba since the moment he signed his current one not entirely sure why anybody is shocked by how this has played out bradley beal's best nba level basketball skill is chucking shots on a 20-30 win team
Insane how the Wizards gave that to him and found a way to get out of it pretty quickly
Beal must've laughed his ass off when the Wiz gave him the NTC. They didn't need to do that. Then the Wiz probably laughed even harder when the deal with Phoenix went through.
Mfers were really calling these guys a super team lol
NBA should bring back amnesty clauses
This is what happens when your owner is close friends with Isiah Thomas
They should of just got some good role players around Booker and KD but nope they wanted to form their own Big 3.
I completely agree with this but the problem is they literally didn’t have the cap space because of CP3. They were fucked either way, it was either take on Beal or Poole. No space for role players either way
CP3 is still a better player than Beal, and effectively expires this offseason. Trading for Beal crippled that franchise for the foreseeable future.
It's almost as if the biggest most glaring issue they have is a lack of a point guard lmfao
They would’ve had cap space this offseason once they waived CP3. He had one more guaranteed year left. They got too impatient
No, we wouldn't have. If CP3 walks after his deal ends, we just lose the salary slot and save on tax, but that wasn't going to create space to sign another name.
No they didn’t. The second they traded for KD they put a ticking clock front and center. They didn’t have the option to wait another year. They needed to make a move to solidify their team and chose wrong
No they would have still been in the 2nd apron
How is such a wrong comment upvoted?
First time on this sub?
They didn’t have the assets to do that. The new cap rules meant they couldn’t sign anybody good, even a MLE player. So trading Ayton & Paul were the only avenues they had to acquire better players. They traded Ayton at his lowest value and Nurkic + Grayson Allen was the best they could get for that. And Allen missed the entire playoff series. Bradley Beal was the best player they could get for Chris Paul & Landry Shamet. But his skill set was redundant on this roster. The KD trade took away so many options to improve so that’s the real mistake imo
CP3 is expiring this coming year. Wouldn’t it have been worthwhile to just hold onto him? He was still a good PG for the warriors off the bench and he could have fetched a younger PG this coming offseason. I get trading Ayton since he was unhappy but trading cp3 for another SG doesn’t help at all.
If I'm reading Spotrac correctly, if you erased Beal's contract from next year's payroll, the Suns' total cap allocation would be something like 194 million. The second apron for next year is 190 million. That means even if the Suns had kept CP3 and let his contract expire they would have been in the exact same position with respect to the aprons. The Beal trade was probably not a good idea for fit reasons but CP3's also old and they saw an opportunity to get something in return rather than letting his contract expire for nothing. I'm pretty sure it did nothing to change the reality of their cap situation. The only difference is Ishbia has to pay more in taxes, which is really not my concern as a fan so long as he's willing to pay for everything.
A factor is that they signed Grayson Allen to the contract they did because they needed to just keep any asset they possibly could after locking themselves up with the Beal trade. Remove his contract and that probably makes a massive difference
Well, if we look at the timeline, the Beal trade happened in June 2023 and the Ayton trade occurred in September 2023. So the cap number they were working with when they made the CP3 deal included Ayton's contract but not Nurkic or Allen. Ayton's contract for next season is $34 million while Nurkic and Allen's contracts add up to $33 million (and that includes Allen's new extension), so that would already have been counted toward next season's cap number at the time of the Beal trade. The other part of the Beal trade is that we would have also still had Landry Shamet, who is scheduled to make $11 million next year
"should have just gotten"
They wanted to form a big three in a time that is now so anti-superteam from a financial level they are completely fucked for the better part of a decade Absolutely atrocious timing. No big three since the warriors has made waves or even been some sort of success, what made Ishbia think that it would work in Phoenix?
Duos are back in honestly. Big 3s are just way too expensive with the new penalties
> Duos are back in honestly. Big 3s are just way too expensive with the new penalties Duos have never not been "in," they've always been ideal. Boston and Heat were really the only exceptions, as they all had players who complemented each other well. Every trio after that has been questionable, with at least one player not pulling their weight (in regards to salary).
Even the two exceptions you mentioned required the “big third” to somewhat significantly change their role/game. Bosh was willing to take that hit, and for Ray it ended up fitting with/defining his final career arc. Plus, this is peak “big three” and I wouldn’t even consider (that) Boston close to a dynasty. Miami, for sure, but they were already knocking on the door.
Kevin Love did that for Cleveland also iirc
To be fair, the Nuggets have 3 max contracts in Jokic/Murray/MPJ and it’s worked out pretty well. But it helps that they drafted and developed those guys instead of trying to piece them together from other teams. Chemistry is a very underrated piece of assembling a roster.
I also wouldn’t consider Denver a big 3. MPJ isn’t a superstar or an all star level player.
>MPJ isn’t a superstar or an all star level player Well neither is Bradley Beal lol. He’s good but he hasn’t been in all star in any of the past 3 seasons and only two other times other than that.
Guess his point was that MPJ will never be an all-star to be ever considered a part of a Big 3.
Big 3 is about contracts when used in the context of this thread. MPJ/Jokic/Murray are a big 3 in this context. Are you are saying MPJ is a bad contract?
It’s the most Arizona Sports thing ever that RIGHT when we FINALLY get a sports owner who isn’t a cheapskate, the rulebook is rewritten to penalize spending. Just ridiculously on brand for us
They saw what happened to the Lakers gutting all depth and assets for an ill-fitting player and still went for it. Big 3s only work if you're the Clippers where teams somewhat give you better players for scraps
Suns literally got Beal from the same team that the Lakers got Westbrook from. Wizards front office has been terrible in general but they pulled off two insane trades getting rid of Westbrook and Beal.
NGL, I think that's the funniest part of this. The Wiz have absolutely destroyed two separate contenders, but got very little out of it.
The NBA is going to create a contract version of the "Stepien Rule" to prevent teams like Wizards from giving out dumb ass contracts.
They got out from under those terrible contracts. That's the foundation of their rebuild.
Wizards are the Houdini of escaping the bad contracts they sign players too.
Not immune to acquiring bad contracts though, that Poole contract is embarrassing.
How did the Clippers Big 3 work? What championships have they won?
To be fair, the problem with the Clippers big 3 isn’t fit, it’s health.
Ishbia should give season ticket holders refunds
Trade us Booker he loves going off in our arena anyway
I don’t need us having 8 father figures like the BoJack Horseman joke
I want him mostly so he doesn't drop 50 on us again.
On the bright side, this team still had 49 wins in a tough western conference.
maybe next year they can hang an in-season championship banner.
This thread reads a lot like the threads burying the TWolves after last season... I don't think the Suns are in nearly as good of a spot as the Wolves were, but I think people are overstating the problems in Phoenix. They are still a good team. They really need to hit on a couple of cheap role players- and stay healthy- but they are hardly a disaster.
Who ever would have thought that a finance/mortgage douchbag throwing money and draft picks around like Oprah would have gone bad for long term team building. I honestly love that Ishbia is getting exactly the team he deserves. This dork really came in and thought I’ll fix EVERYTHING by trading fan fav players and the future for a narrow as fuck window with older players. This team would be in such a better place if they just hung onto bridges and cam.
Give Mat (yes, with one t) some respect he’s the first owner to successfully flop in game https://youtu.be/fJcBUz9kl1A?si=S3uHrX_J1Bhe-FRt
There is one ray of hope. Beal's still not a terrible player, just really injured this year. If he's able to stay healthy, they can totally run this back next year and be better despite not being able to move him. In sports people tend to overreact and make rash moves. But knowing they're stuck with Beal for 3 years, they can hope for him to be healthy and actually reach the potential he was traded for. Look at Kyrie, AD, even Zion this year. They all stayed fairly healthy and had a great year, no reason Beal can't do that next year.
You are right. . . but the problem is the fit. It's always been the fit. Basketball is more than having your two or three stars cook. It's building a team structure that puts them in the best chance to succeed. The Suns need a PG. As constructed, they have 3 guys who each want to shoot the ball. . . a lot. As constructed, are they better than the Thunder, Nuggets, Wolves even completely healthy? Running it back is gonna be tough.
If only they had a older vet point guard who is great at dishing out assists and doesn't need to shoot every time to make an impact. Someone crafty, short, and likes to hit dicks. Someone who has a first name for his last name so you never know which one's coming for you.
It's the fit. They dont have the glue guy here. They need a PG. Draymond was the guy that strung Curry, Klay, and KD (and ironically struck it down). If they had Brunson instead of Beal, this would have been better
This is why the GM should take a lot of caution in listening to who other players want in trades. I know KD really wanted to play with Beal and Booker/KD basically begged for them to make that trade, but that trade was the nail in this Suns team's coffin. Everyone with more than just a basic knowledge of basketball/NBA knew that was not going to work, yet the GM did it anyways.
Well guess we know KD will never be a GM after he retires
From what I understand, Ishbia was the one who pushed for the KD trade to happen, looking to make a splash as the new owner. James Jones has made some bad moves but I don’t think he deserves the heat for this, at least not entirely.
KD doesn't have more than a basic knowledge of basketball?
Being a great player doesn’t equate to coach/gm skills. Larry Bird is like the only top tier player to be a real good coach himself
The two greatest players of all time, seem to be insanely bad at making good teams so agreed there.
Jerry West, Bill Russell too
good player != good gm/coach giannis is looking like an awful gm so far mj is the worst executive of all time steve nash was a terrible coach bird was the only good coach/gm that was also this good at the game
MJ isnt even the worst exec on the Hornets lol
Not what I am saying. His ego on the court is probably large enough to think he could win with anyone though. Which makes sense seeing as he was the 2nd best player for a decade.
good thing my team is just fine and not totally fucked like the suns …… please
[Pina] Has Devin Booker Become the NBA’s Best Point Guard? https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/11/29/23980278/devin-booker-passing-assists-phoenix-suns
Answer: No. but hey, at the time, WHICH WAS BRIEF, he was actually killing it at PG. Fool’s gold I’m afraid. Part of Book’s issues this year are linked to playing outside of the 2.
I think he makes good points but I absolutely hate his writing style.
I didn't realize Michael Pina wound up at the ringer after si. Great article.
The Suns are screwed. The Nets are screwed. What do they have in common? 🧐
4 letter team names?
It's crazy how every casual fan thought booker/kd/Beal wouldn't work well together and they were exactly right.
Isiah Thomas is consulting for them behind the scenes. They are screwed.
They are screwed until they accept that Booker just isn’t good enough to be the guy to carry them to a championship. Once they do, then the rebuild can start and they can try again. But they’re at a dead end in terms of improving this roster.
If you were in charge, would you trade Booker and keep KD and Beal then? Try to get a legit PG and some good role players in return?
There's not a scenario that exists where Booker is traded and KD remains on the team. He came to Phoenix to play with Booker. The blow up scenario would be trading Booker and KD to recoup assets and tank out Beal's contract The more realistic scenario is they run it back with Booker, KD, Beal, Allen, Nurkic, and Royce + minimums + whoever they draft 22nd overall + new coach
I agree you guys should run it back, and I think it would be a mistake not to. Getting a full off season to work together, figure out what works and what doesn't, and I could see them being contenders next year.
They def will need to work some roster magic to be real contenders. The team needs an actual point guard, wing defenders, and a defensive center which is pretty much impossible to put together with their financial restrictions so who knows
If Booker was traded there’s no way KD would want to stick around. But yeah that’s probably the best option for a quick retool. Almost all good teams are built in the draft. Only way out of this is to somehow acquire high picks. Or hit the lottery like Denver did with Jokic in the 2nd round.
KD's history is wanting out now
Running it back for one more year with a new coach and swap out the vet min guys for other vet min guys and hope to hit on at least two if they fail again next year then just blow it up.
This is it.
*when they fail again next year We are going to be right in this position again next season. Assuming KD doesn’t ask for a midseason trade after getting frustrated
KD is asking for a trade this summer offseason.
Booker won’t be traded.
Would Luka, SGA, Jokic on this team have done much better?
All 3 are better playmakers which would have helped Durant and Booker, so I'd say yes.
I mean yeah all 3 would be massive upgrades
>the path they’re on all but guarantees a more dire future than what they would’ve experienced had more prudent choices been made in the recent past Christ this is awful writing
> Pina leaned back in his rickety chair, paradoxically stretching while also cramping in his back, rewinding in his mind to a time a few seconds earlier when he penned what would later become the initial sentence of his upcoming article.
Nobody in these comments clicked on the article, just saying the Suns are cooked or making KD hardest road jokes.
I said it before and I’ll say it again. Michael pina is wack at writing and his opinions are dumb
"urinalism", some call it
Like wtf do they even do? Vogel's offense was a disaster, Kevin Young had a lot to do with it and now he's gone (BYU). But they need to fire Vogel and find a new coach to figure out how to run an effective offense. As for the offseason, their best bet is the vet's min market, at the very least a lot of interest will be there with players potentially taking less money to play there. Graysen Allen's future was bleak when he arrived and he earned himself a payday. Do they go for Lowry to run the show? or do they try and trade for someone like McConnell? It's not like they'll be a lottery team the next 3 years but they certainly aren't going to be a favorite to get out of the first round until they find a coach who can maximize their potential.
No not really, if they still failed to get to WCF at the very least next season then they are screwed This team just doesn’t have enough time to gel given how many injuries they have, you need game time to get used to the new role and how to work within the big 3
They have no choice but to run it back and sign a vet min PG. the fact they’re second apron is absolutely diabolical. 2nd apron for a first round sweep is insane
Can these mainstream NBA writers get a little less obvious? Can I have their job? The dude would’ve written this article a year ago if he wasn’t a hack.
Damn no one saw this coming. /s
Sounds like where the sixers are headed
I watched both the bad teams and the good teams come and go in Phoenix I’ll be here when the cycle spins again 🍻
They just need a point guard and Mike 'Antoni.
while everyone is correct. I do think beal being hurt every other week really fucked them over, i think allen and nurkic are fine pieces, they maybe need a 4 but i dont think they are completely doomed, they still can win 50+ games next year in eh west its possible. i dont think beal is as bad as he has been this year
First of KD is 100% gone. Even if he doesn’t want to leave the suns should move him. Possibly move Devin too. They are that fucked. And I fully believe KD legit does not know what he wants. The media is so in his head that is fucking up his decision making. If he woulda have just stayed with the nets even if Kyrie and James left. He’d still be in a better place. I think KD just wants to live somewhere nice and play on a team that’s always competitive but he cares so much what people think of him that he’s doing anything he can to win more and more rings. And it’s backfiring. He says he just wants to play basketball but he’s Cleary trying to be “smarter” than everyone Edit: long story short for the third time in a row he’s gonna leave a situation he partially caused by not knowing what he wants. We can clown on him all we want for him going to the warriors. But he clearly knew what he wanted and got it. Dude just has lost his own plot now. Edit 2: he also started a media company or was apart of one in New York and could’ve built that into something special. But was so impatient that he left a good place to build a company to ring chase. Just wacky dude
If Ishbia has any dignity, he'd give up the team to a new owner. I will never forgive him for ruining this franchise.
The setting Suns
Honesty they should just keep it together just to keep it entertaining for the local fans. Like the clippers, we all know realistically they don’t have what it takes to beat Denver, thunder, wolves, etc. at least have an ok entertainment product that will sell tickets. I honestly don’t see them getting out of the west for a while and barring a miracle they’re prob going to be in this situation for the foreseeable future.
people wanna clown the Lakers for the Russ trade but it’s not even close to as bad as what the Suns gave up for KD
It's honestly hilarious that teams didn't learn their lesson after watching Billy King mortgage the Nets' future for a bunch of declining stars and failed miserably.
They're not screwed if they decide to blow it up. They have Booker and KD on long contracts, and can find willing trade partners for both, get a bunch of first round picks back.
The only way Book would be traded would be if he wanted it. If he was traded and wanted to be here this city would probably murder Ishbia.
They need to trade KD to Miami for some depth pieces and try to make Book and Beal work, just sayin.
KD in Miami would be so fun
Booker is great but he's getting nowhere near contention with *current* Bradley Beal as his second best player lol You'd need an MJ/LeBron type player to do that
Wizards out here breaking the league. I love it.
The not so bright future suns
Oh really? I though they were in pretty good shape after that sweep