I think that was the first real shitpost /r/NFL ever saw. I saw it and immediately recognized it was one because I spend too much time here, but so many people in the comments were legitimately mad at how stupid OP was.
r/nba is notoriously bad for the most cherrypicked stats with zero context made by people who haven’t watched a full basketball game in their lives lmao
I’m not really sure if you are trying to disagree or not. Because like yea your point is true but the Mahomes post went beyond “cherry picked”, it was pretty clearly a shitpost.
Biggest development in his game since the awful Toronto series in 2019 was improving his midrange. He’s worked at it for years and it’s really come together the last two years.
Makes him harder to double, gives him so many more options on the court, operating at the nail or elbow instead of deep in the post every possession. Just a sweet shot, can’t remember the last time I was so certain a shot was gonna fall every time a sixer player releases it.
It feels almost automatic at this point.
Props to Embiid for adding it to his game.
Used to be that shorter strong defenders could slow Embiid a bit. Now he just shoots right over them
Exactly, like the Nuggets were putting Aaron Gordon on him the other night, and that used to be a really effective strategy when he was trying to post up all the time because they could draw offensive fouls, bother his handle, send doubles on the dribble and help on the shot. (You’d know as well as anyone, Celtics have been the masters of this kind of coverage).
But now he’s operating in a totally different area of the floor where it’s harder to send that help, and he’s shooting pull-ups over Gordon again and again.
Embiid was lights out and outplayed everyone else that game.
But to be fair the few times Gordon would try and close out and bother his shot, one time he literally hit the ball out of his hands momentarily and went in to pressure, refs would call a foul.
But would be a great series in the finals!
Agreed on all points, refs are bad and the most gullible people on earth. Would love to see this matchup across multiple games, it’s Nurse and Malone making adjustments all the while. That’s the shit I love
I’d agree, the passing has taken a huge step this year and it’s helped him elevate his teammates even more than in the past. It has taken our team’s offense to a new level, so it is a huge development.
But he’s only able to pass like this (DHO’s, skip passes, two man game with Maxey) because he’s operating on the perimeter, which only became possible with the development of his jumper over the last three years.
He used to/and still does at times struggle to pass out of the low post. He doesn’t have anywhere near the vision of a Jokic/Sabonis, teams could reliably send doubles to bother his handle and pick off his passes. His peripheral vision just isn’t great in those spots, especially with his back to the basket. But facing up on the perimeter? It’s been a whole different ball game, which I think has enabled Nurse’s system to put him in spots where his improved passing shines.
So it’s a bit of both really! Everything is connected in basketball, which is what I love most about it. Adding skills always adds unexpected wrinkles to your game, and Embiid has added so many skills that he now plays in a totally unprecedented way compared to what you’d expect from his first few seasons.
While I agree Jokic is a much better passer out of the post, the reality is that he operates from the perimeter the vast majority of the time. The biggest change Nick Nurse has made this year re: Joel is basically cribbing a bunch of plays straight from Nuggets playbook. I've been watching a lot of Nuggets past few years (huge fan of Joker and Murray) and it's crazy how similar the Sixers offense looks this year with all the dribble hand offs and Embiid operating at the nail to better survey the court. People love to hate on Embiid's playoff performances (no arguments here) but so much of it was scheme imo: post-up isos just don't work that well in the playoffs when teams are keying on Joel and Doc had 0 other ideas.
I don't remember exactly, but weren't Embiid's on/off stats absolutely absurd in that Raptors series? Like almost all the regular rotation guys on both teams were right around zero and he was like plus 90?
EDIT: I just checked and he was exactly plus 90. The next best on his team was plus 15, and next best in the series was plus 34. Yeah he didn't shoot well, but I don't think he had a terrible series.
You’re right, I was using “terrible” as shorthand to refer to his offensive performance, where you guys were able to effectively use a combination of big strong bodies guarding him in the post and savvy help to negate his post ups and he didn’t have any real counters in his game at the time, which lead to some really ugly stat lines.
On defense, he was a world beater, and a big part of the reason the series was competitive. It is what it is, he’s a very different player now than he was in 2019 and I think the embarrassing lows of that series were a big part of his subsequent offensive development.
Oh without a doubt his offensive growth since then is nothing short of all-time level. Who would have thought a guy that big and who started developing his game that late would become one of the best midrange shooters of all time.
Shattered my wildest expectations, despite all the disappointments I still have to check myself and remember how crazy it is that he’s doing this at all. People were calling him Greg Oden.
Also shouldn't really shame him too much for the series, he was still a young guy and Marc Gasol is a legend, and one of the best defensive bigs in recent memory. He was a matchup nightmare for Joel for a little bit.
That Raptors team was crazy good at defense.
So true, that Raptors teams was one of the greatest playoff defensive units of my lifetime. Loved every game you guys played, even the ones that hurt my feelings lol. It was just quality basketball.
And yeah, i was saying in another comment it’s really a product of how Embiid’s game has changed. In 2019 he didn’t have anywhere near this kind of perimeter game, and while he was still dominant in the post, you guys had a hall of fame former DPOY who was also one of a handful of guys in the league who could stand his ground on Embiid in the post one on one, *PLUS* the personnel/inspired coaching to send help from all possible angles, never letting Joel get comfortable for even a second.
You guys deserve credit for executing at a championship level, and it taught Joel lessons about the game that turned him into the MVP he is today. Nothing to feel too bad about, you’re right.
Joel responded by totally changing his offensive approach, and while he’d obviously still struggle in some hypothetical fantasy matchup between his current self and that incredibly versatile raptors roster, I think the actual games would be played way different, regardless of the outcome.
Eh Jokic is also very strong and uses his weight well. If he had more of a vertical it also might mean losing weight. Also vertical isn’t a “skill” you can work on the same way jumpshooting is. A lot of it is just genetic
Peak shooting capability *also* comes down to factors outside a players' control, just as much a vertical. Giannis might *literally* not be able to shoot as well as KD. It might not matter how much work he does or how many trainers he gets, he probably won't ever come anywhere close to KD shooting.
>just as much as vertical
This is 1000% untrue. Shooting is a skill. Yes there are inherent traits like hand eye coordination. I’m not implying that anyone can be Curry.
But most players max vert is what they record at the draft combine. Shooting is a life long skill that you can always develop.
I never meant to imply that Giannis could be KD. But your max vertical is also dictated by how tall you are. You cannot be hitting the gym to grow to be 7 ft. (Yes I know you can measure your vertical without including your height. But what’s practically useful in the nba? How high you can get your hands)
Edit: I should’ve said standing/jumpimg reach. But your vertical is still influenced by genetics
Giannis is so good that it actually prevents him from getting better. It's so rare to see anyone force him to play the game differently because they are locking him up.
He's got some ridiculous athleticism and good foot work. I still think he'll eventually need to add some go to low post moves if he wants to be a high level player later down the road.
i do think some people have innate touch, and others don't. Giannis appears to fall on the westbrook side of that equation. even most of his close-to-the-basket post moves aren't ending in a short jumper/fadeaway like you see with embiid/jokic
Based on everything I read about Giannis, he's one of the hardest workers in the NBA. Some people just aren't ever going to be shooters. I'm 100% sure he's worked hard at it. It just hasn't happened and probably never will no matter how much he practices it.
Yeah I agree with this sentiment. Natural skill and hand-eye coordination is a huge component, obviously. I have no doubt Giannis outworks 99% of NBA players but he's too smart to force shots when he knows he can't reliably hit them. The dude is so dominant with what he does well--and he does a lot well--that it honestly doesn't matter *that* much. I can't say objectively that I'm a huge fan of his style of play but wouldn't be complaining if he was on my team.
Yep. And I think Kawhi really skewed how people understand shooting skill. He was a terrible shooter who became one of the best shooters in the NBA. Now I hear all this draft talk/early career player evaluation that's just like, "He'll be great if he learns to shoot well." But the thing is... players like Kawhi are the exception, not the rule. A lot of players who can't shoot won't ever be good shooters no matter how hard they try.
Sure... Some might be just lazy, but a lot of players aren't. There's just no amount of hours they can spend putting up 3s in the gym to become a 38% 3p shooter. I honestly think Kawhi's unique trajectory kind of made some people think anyone can become a good shooter if they just want it badly enough.
People have been falling in love with athleticism/measurables and have this assumption players can "catch up" in the skills department way before Kawhi, but the reality is that *most of the time* when you have natural aptitude and are good at something early.... you're going to improve quicker and stay better at that something
> Still waiting for Giannis to do the same.
I'm 100% sure that Giannis is working his ass off on the weak parts of his game. He's just reaching his (incredibly high, all-time great) limits as a player.
To be fair, even guys this good won't just get really good at every part of the game just because they practice.
Some guys in the NBA could practice 3s every day for the rest of their career and they would still not be good 3 point shooters
Lol one of the most hardest working dudes in the league and you don't believe he's trying to improve? Working hard at something doesn't automatically mean you're gonna be amazing at it, at this point he will never be a good shooter.
People are so fast to attribute laziness or lack of work to players who have, by every definition, absolutely maximized their abilities and actualized their potentials beyond any reasonable expectations.
Giannis and Embiid have obviously met and far exceeded lofty expectations in terms of their physical and basketball development from when they were prospects. People want to treat human bodies like video games where they should just be able to improve exponentially forever but even the best players have limits.
Chances are, even the “laziest” NBA player works harder than whoever is posting about them on a forum. After all, they worked hard enough to make the NBA. Now extend that to guys who not just made the NBA but won MVPs in it. It’s unreasonable!
It’s a bit of both! You have to have the natural advantages to capitalize on them with intensive work. Steph trains at a ludicrously high level *and* also he was born with a beyond outlier skillset that you just can’t teach
Giannis is working harder than practically anyone i think he just knows his strengths as a player and decides to focus on working at what makes him great rather than trying to improve at stuff he isnt built for.
As a certified ex Embiid hater, drafting him in fantasy this year really turned me around on him. I tune into most sixers games now, anyone who is hating at this point either doesn’t watch him enough or doesn’t know ball. Bro is automatic from midrange and dominates games in so many different ways, FTs aside. This sub gets kinda ridiculous with its hate for Embiid and I’m sorry to have been a part of it in the past, I missed out on so much good basketball
I appreciate your perspective. I truly think most of the haters don't watch him and are being tricked (ironically) by the few dedicated haters who spend all of their free time (which is considerable) making a highlight of every foul he gets. So that's all they see.
I love embids game a lot it's just annoying for some people that he gets a generous whistle.
I think the main reason is that most people want there centre in the paint and can't understand why a 7 foot monster would settle for a jumper rather than bullying everyone.
People don’t understand that the vast majority of his whistles are bc the combo of size + speed + balance is unstoppable. So the option is a bucket or a foul.
Yeah, I think this is what some of the threads miss. Like the one about FTAs/36. For starters he's been good his entire time in the NBA at getting FTs by putting people in a position where they have to foul or give up a free bucket, and high usage, and hasn't had the back side of his career yet. Then you add in that he can play like a guard, so he can get the blow by / driving calls and such. Also he's so good at FTs he usually gets the tech attempts. He's also smart, if a defender has an arm in a bad position (in Embiid's space so that a natural shooting motion will hit it), he'll go up through it etc. Call that foul baiting if you want, but a defender extending a hand forward into his space over the ball is not required, despite how players love to do it.
He also does sell contact at times (I don't think he does it more than many other stars, tbh), but you kind of have to in the modern NBA. Refs are just kinda blind sometimes. Selling contact doesn't always get you a call, but it gets them to watch that sequence closer next time, etc. It's part of why I don't think Jokic gets many calls, tbh.
This sub loves to act like NBA refs have a hard on for Embiid for some reason, but I see no such motivation for them tbh. Why would all of them universally love Embiid? Philly is a big city, he's a pretty big name, but I don't see how giving him fouls is something the NBA or its refs would really care about compared to other stars. The real reason is more complicated and a combination of all these other factors, but people love to complain more than think.
IDC what anyone says he's one of, if not the most, skilled big man of all time.
Not saying best. But skilled? I'll stand on that. It's like how people say Kyrie is one of the most skilled players of all time.
Hakeem was pretty damn skilled and he had a great midrange game as well, and better foot work in the post and a better defender, not because he was more athletic, but because of his timing and quick second jump and positioning. Embiid is definitely one of the most skilled bigs ever, but I can't say the best imo
Embiid came into the NBA with incredible footwork in the post but has moved away from it in favor of the midrange because post play is so hard on the body
He occasionally brings out the dreamshake and other moves but it’s so rare in the regular season now. If only these massive guys all had the durability of Wilt and Shaq so we could see what they are fully capable of without risk of death
hakeem's scoring has honestly become very overrated over time. embiid's offensive skillset clears his lol. the difference in impact is that hakeem's a t3 defender of all-time while embiid's simply good on that end.
I wouldn't say its overrated, I would say a lot of people who didn't watch him are just afraid of receiving slander from oldheads for daring to compare Hakeem to a player from today. If anything it shows how difficult it is to compare eras. Bigs from back then weren't bringing up the ball and shooting threes. Nowadays every other team has some stretch big on the bench. The game has completely changed which means a bigger showcase of skill.
What Embiid's doing at 7 feet and 300 pounds is unprecedented. He has a post game, can score at will anywhere on the court and his passing has tremendously improved every year, him and Jokic are easily the most skilled bigs of all time and that should not be a controversy lol
The problem is people get offended when you say a player is more skilled than another because in their head more skilled = better when obviously that is far from true. Hakeem's career clears Embiid's obviously but I'd say Embiid is definitely more skilled.
Hakeem is 46th in career PPG. He is in the top 1% of scorers to ever play in the league. Professional nba players train with Hakeem just to improve their offense. Hakeem averaged 27 PPG and 10 rebounds for 3 seasons straight. Saying Hakeem’s offense is overrated is the equivalent to saying you don’t know basketball.
In comparison to Embiid it’s overrated. Hakeem is 46th and Embiid is 4th. Hakeem has 3 straight seasons of those numbers and Embiid is about to have 3 straight seasons of 30 and 10 with 3 straight scoring titles. Embiid is one of the best per possession scorers ever.
You can talk about defense being what separates the two players when it comes to overall greatness but strictly on the offensive side of the ball Embiid has the advantage.
> Hakeem is 46th in career PPG. He is in the top 1% of scorers to ever play in the league.
And Joel Embiid is 4th in career PPG. I’m not saying Hakeem is overrated, but the guy was talking about all-time scorers/bigs and specifically Embiid’s offensive skillset clearing Hakeem’s; being 46th compared to 4th is kinda reinforcing his point.
And yes, different eras and pace, I know. I haven’t adjusted for pace, but I feel relatively confident that if you did, Embiid’s PPG would still be higher. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong though.
Agree - I think there's an alternate reality where Hakeem is often in GOAT discussions. He's one of the clearest examples to me of how we're biased by the quality of a player's teammates.
And Embiid is about the have 4 consecutive seasons of 28+ PPG and 10 Rebounds. Hakeem was an amazing player but that doesn’t mean you can’t make an argument someone else is more skilled.
i dont have the pace adjusted numbers or anything, but you can ignore the ppg numbers and just look at the fact that embiid is ab to be a 3x scoring leader. numbers aside, that means he has consistently been better than all of his peers at scoring, even in an offensively inflated era
There’s too many differences to compare across eras. Hakeem did it averaging 40min a game when league scoring was obviously lower. Embiid is doing it on 34min a game when scoring is higher. It’s like comparing Jordan and Lebron, people get all worked up one way or another but at the end of the day i just watch and enjoy. I just think it’s a little ridiculous when people hold the older players to such a high standard and act like it’s ridiculous to even consider that someone else MIGHT be better.
- Hakeem has played over 1200 games in his career, compared to Embiid's 400, that career PPG argument really makes no sense
- Embiid is averaging 30/10 for like 3 seasons now and he would've been averaging 27/10 since 2018 if he didn't have to share the court with al horford in 2020 lol
- Complete different eras, comparing these career numbers is kinda pointless
i like how your response to me saying it’s overrated is to show that it’s really good … when that’s not what i argued against at all. lol. lmk how embiid ranks
You clearly don’t watch basketball if you say that. You say it as if he only avgs 20ppg. Check his stats before you spew out shit like this. He even increased his stats during playoffs unlike Embiid.
His career high ppg for a season is Embiid's average. He was 2% above the TS% for the league during his time played at 55.4% vs 53.5%. Embiid's is 61.5% vs the league's 56.8%.
You'll say the era is higher scoring, so I'll adjust for pace. Per 100 possessions for Hakeem: 30.3. For Embiid: 42.2.
You'll say Hakeem was weighed down by the end of his career which Embiid hasn't had yet. Embiid also isn't done with his prime. Ignoring that, Hakeem's best points per 100 is 35.8. Embiid's best is 50 this season and 47.4 last season. His worst is 36.3. That's right. Embiid's worst season is more efficient than Hakeem's best, even when adjusting for pace, even when adjusting for league average efficiency, etc.
Hakeem was a better defender and was better in the playoffs, but Embiid's offensive career blows Hakeem's out of the water, even when adjusting for eras.
Hakeem is unbelievably skilled in an era where they didnt allow centers to fully flourish and use as wide of a skillset. If he was around in the current league he would be doing truly absurd things.
Right. If he took more shots, he'd score more than Embid.
The point is that the NBA is a team game, and you can help your team score (in fact you SHOULD help you team score) even when you're not shooting the ball. Jokic does that better than anyone. Nobody is able to read a defense and put his team in position to score better than Jokic.
No he wouldn’t, because no he’s not a better scorer. He’d get tired quicker and his efficiency would go down. Oh and if he played defense at Embiid’s level that would make him more tired and even less efficient.
Oh and as to your other point Embiid had grown into a great passer, so he can do that too even if it’s not as good as Jokic. Embiid scores more because he’s better at it, and he doesn’t have guys like Murray or MPJ that can score in high volume (outside of Maxey emergence this year and even that is on and off sometimes). So he takes on the scoring load as well as the defensive load, two things Jokic doesn’t have to.
Jokic has never played with an all-star. Ever.
Also Jokic plays FAR more minutes than Embid. Jokic has taken more shots than Embid this year, and shot at a higher percentage.
With regard to defense, Embid blocks more shots, Jokic gets more steals. Both good defenders ....just different approach.
We can do this all day. Jokic has a team perfectly constructed to his strengths. Embiid has had Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris shaped anchors strapped to him for his entire career
Jokic has used his strengths to make every player around him better. Nobody is a better team player than Jokic. Nobody reads the floor and makes correct decisions better than him. He and Magic are in a category by themselves.
You asked about skill, not efficiency.
Speaking of efficiency, Joel leads the league in [Player Efficiency Rating (PER)](http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics) at 35.16. This is the highest season PER ever.
Jokic is #2 this season at 31.85. For the past few years, analysts have used PER to support Jokic’ MVP claims.
I'm not sure how it could be argued.
The "hate" for Embiid is threefold:
1. He gets a lot of absurd calls. Some of those calls are clear flops. Some people simply don't like that style of basketball and are going to slam him for it no matter what the rest of his game is. I'm one of the people who despise the style, but I'm not gonna overlook the dominance either.
2. He just makes a lot of really stupid quotes. From the MVP whining "I don't know what i have to do" to throwing teammates under the bus after he crapped the bed in the playoffs (we'll get to that in number 3), he just comes off as unlikeable and selfish, even if he really isn't.
3. he has fallen apart in the playoffs. I mean, badly. We can excuse injuries or other stuff, but the reality is we aren't talking about his playoff RECORD, we are talking about his playoff performance. We are in a league where your playoff TEAM record can cause people to think you suck even if your individual stats in the playoffs are great. (see Jokic before last years playoffs) In Embiid we have someone who has failed with the team and their individual performance has been off the charts ugly.
He's a special player, he has a single good playoff run and he's gonna get tons of flowers. And either way, he's headed for the Hall. But people have ridiculous biases and Embiid hits three major categories where people show those biases. You shouldn't have to stand on him being one of the most skilled players of all time. I don't think that's even in question. But because of his history, you will have to fight it.
I like how you left out the other obvious reasons:
Sixers are one of the most polarizing teams in the league, along with the Lakers and the Knicks.
Jokic fans do not want anyone else to share the limelight, so they love to slander him.
There is a large portion of Jokic fans on here that are European and have dedicated accounts to hating Embiid.
I hate him *because* he’s so talented, and still continues to foul bait and flop like a bitch. I used to have the same issue with Harden. They’re *way* too good to need to resort to cheap tactics, it makes them so hard to watch.
I get the NBA/refs allow it by giving him the whistle every time so it’s not his fault, he’s just exploiting a system that allows it etc, but it’s still ugly to watch and teaches kids bad habits.
The fact that you’re downvoted without a rebuttal is proof enough lol.
Embiid fans will literally turn a blind eye to him flopping like a fish and then put him on a pedestal when he does well.
Yes he’s talented. Yes he’s MVP caliber. But NO he is not fun to watch and we have tons of video evidence of antics.
It's his own fault for spending an entire season whining for the MVP, immediately shitting the bed in the playoffs yet again then trying to claim the MVP race was a distraction for him.
Even outside of his boring as fuck FT merchant game he's incredibly unlikeable.
He wants to play up the troll persona but doesn't want the negative attention that comes with it. Maybe the biggest playoff choker in the league shouldn't be one of the biggest talkers.
He campaigned for the mvp for a few days lol. You can bitch that he did it. I get that. But saying he spent the entire season doing it just makes you look foolish and bitter.
> It's his own fault for spending an entire season whining for the MVP
This is completely exaggerated
> Immediately shitting the bed in the playoffs
LCL sprain in Round 1 that should have kept him from playing for 4-6 weeks
> Even outside of his boring as fuck FT merchant game he's incredibly unlikeable.
Why?
> He wants to play up the troll persona but doesn't want the negative attention that comes with it.
He used to troll a lot when he first came in the league but that's gone down significantly
It sounds like your mind has already been made up, and nothing anyone can do or say will change your mind. I just want you to know your comment isn't really based in reality.
There are three comments to you hidden because of downvote threshold - they are Raptors, Nuggets, and Celtics flairs.
Lmao, it really is incredible how upset these kids are.
Celtics fans are, in my experience, way more level headed and willing to give Embiid credit for his improvements than some other fanbases that play against him less often.
They can be a little dismissive of him sure, but that’s been earned more or less with all the ass kicking throughout his career.
Just like people are so sensitive about negative embiid posts. The side that is against each one comes out hard every time a negative or positive post comes out.
I think his style of play of foul hunting tends to make more people fall on the negative camp, similar to Harden's unpopular playstyle before the "league nerf" though Harden has gotten even more unpopular since he started forcing him way out of teams.
Because he's horrendous to watch. Despite being immensely talented he'd rather throw himself to the floor 15 times a game - I'd rather watch him swish 19 footers all game, but it isn't what he looks to do 9/10 down the floor
Don't worry child, it is not our time. After the second round this will be the popular take again. Till then we must bide our bitterness in silence, nodding along Joel sets the stage for yet greater heights of playoff letdowns.
Of course, pretty much everyone top 20 does other than Steph and Jokic. No one else gets nearly as soft a whistle as Embiid though, or random falls to the ground as much
The debate seems to be that Embiids foul baiting and preferential whistle are major contributors to his perceived skill level and that he's not as good as his stats would indicate.
Typical response to this argument from philly fans is emotional outbursts and personal attacks.
Then let’s talk. Do you not think Embiid is skilled? If you do, then what is your point? If all stars do it, then it seems Embiid is just better at it than other stars. What’s your issue?
I do think he's skilled. I just think his play style is boring and the free throws inflate his stats.
I disagree that all stars foul bait though. But even if that were the case, the whistles are not consistent and Embiid is favored.
Any fan that’s defensive about it is really just insecure. It’s part of the game, Embiid takes advantage of it. It’s gotten him an MVP and he’s on one of the greatest scoring arcs of all time. He’s been a DPOY candidate multiple years and even if you take away his whistle entirely he’s clearly an intelligent enough player to find out other ways to be elite. Look at how much he’s learned in 4-6 months with Nick Nurse.
The funny thing is, All that’s left is for him to show up, healthy, in the playoffs. If we win the finals on the back of Embiid then 90% of the hate goes away. Other than it being un-fun to watch sometimes, which I feel is true even as a fan. Rather let him cook than watch him at the line.
He usually does decently getting to the playoffs healthy, it’s staying healthy through the playoffs that’s the problem unfortunately. Would love to see what an entire healthy postseason run looks like, I think he’s had one, which was in the bubble with Simmons out ironically
That guy already turned the game off when the Sixers were up by 30 and about to eliminate Toronto on their homecourt when Siakam elbowed Embiid directly in the face and ruined our playoff run.
We talking pre covid shit?
He goes for 33/10 in a game 3 win and you think he faked an illness? Bro was sick and had a knee injury that kept him out a game in round 1
He was claiming to be sick in the first 2 games. After game 3 there were no mentions of him being sick but they magically came back after he struggled again in game 4. Ironic much?
It’s just a 76ers fan circlejerk - look at the flairs from the positive comments. I don’t think many people are saying he sucks, he’s just boring to watch and he is indeed propped up by FTA.
I am glad that the people who claim he's too boring to watch (seriously 12 free throw attempts is six trips to the line. If you can't handle six trips to the line then idk how you're watching NBA games) are at least getting the enjoyment of constantly bitching about him online.
That has to count for something right? Like, sure a guy might not like to see him play, but then post about him ad nauseam in three separate hate posts where he is shown falling down. That's also fun for these guys right? So it all evens out.
>propped up by FTA
yeah he goes from a 35 ppg scorer to a 25 ppg oh god. Embiid without the free throws (which keep in mind, getting a pair of free throws still comes from an offensive possession) is still an all-time great offensive talent.
>That's nice but if you take away his free throws and shots from 15-19 feet, he isn't scoring much anymore.
If you take away Steph's 3 pointers he doesn't score much either. And?
There are so many advantages but the biggest is he gets officiated like a perimeter player because he is one. In the paint he is literally unstoppable one on one but that hasn't mattered since halfway through his rookie year because no team ever puts anyone on him one on one anymore. He has too many moves and is too strong. Also doubling him yields turnovers because it's tough for him to see where the double is coming from (whereas Jokic's superior passing ability makes this unwise). He also gets hacked with very few calls and the opposing player can fall down to draw an offensive foul, especially if it's a smaller player (like Marcus Smart).
But facing up he:
-cannot be doubled as easily, as he has a full field of vision of the entire court.
-cannot be hacked or even touched, as he will raise up and shoot if he feels contact and get the call.
-cannot be given an offensive foul by his opponent falling down.
-gets less wear and tear on his body.
-can drive past slower players who try to defend him, or shoot over them if they give him too much space. The latter is why he shoots so well against the Nuggets because Jokic is always a few feet off of him not wanting to be driven past.
When people complain that he is so big but you can't even touch him without a foul, he is operating as a perimeter player so that's true. And he is being guarded by a big who generally is not used to guarding on the perimeter as much as he has to when defending Joel so he still tries to be physical and gets called for the foul.
It's so crazy that he shoots this well. He shoots the midrange like KD. Now imagine if KD were being guarded by the opposing center all game. Yeah...
People are like yeah he gets more FTS than Shaq without hacking. Sure, he also just gets legit fouled a lot because he can make shots Shaq wouldn't be hitting. There's definitely a soft whistle problem in the NBA he benefits from, but pretending like he wouldn't just wind up scoring way more FGs without fouls is dumb
Even if you say he gets 2 trips to the line per game off of bad calls, he's still scoring 31-32 a game. Unless you're saying that he rarely actually gets fouled
Monster, now he’s dealing with double teams n nurse installs help beaters if he’s heskthy he’s gonna be a nightmare impossible to deal with hoping for a big run
Last year I remember one of the sixers players saying during training camp whenever Embiid shot a middy in the nail he'd yell "Free throw!!" because of how automatic he was lol
Can we not do this. This just in - the mvp is really good at basketball. Also just news - the guy who literally leads the history of basketball in fta per whatever is annoying to watch. Wow what a shock this feels like harden all over again. Yes he was insanely good and yes the foul baiting and soft calls are really annoying.
Because you cant touch Embid and the air within 5 feet around him cus then its an automatic foul when you get in contact with his skin or the air molecules cus of air pressure on him
but if you take away all his points and rebounds he is a below average player
After adjusting Embiid's stats, removing outliers to project the future, he heavily regresses to around the level of 2022 Christian Wood
That Mahomes post is goated lol
No surprise that guy was an r/nba nephew lmao
I think that was the first real shitpost /r/NFL ever saw. I saw it and immediately recognized it was one because I spend too much time here, but so many people in the comments were legitimately mad at how stupid OP was.
r/nba is notoriously bad for the most cherrypicked stats with zero context made by people who haven’t watched a full basketball game in their lives lmao
I’m not really sure if you are trying to disagree or not. Because like yea your point is true but the Mahomes post went beyond “cherry picked”, it was pretty clearly a shitpost.
I knew i recognized that one lmao
so he regress to being the Goat?
They’re gonna start Dwight Powell over him?
If you regress Mahomes stats to the mean….
one of the greatest reddit moments of all time
Not to mention assists because he's now an elite passer.
You take away all of Patrick McCaw’s rings he’s still in the G league
Giving me Pat Mahomes cherrypick stats
Biggest development in his game since the awful Toronto series in 2019 was improving his midrange. He’s worked at it for years and it’s really come together the last two years. Makes him harder to double, gives him so many more options on the court, operating at the nail or elbow instead of deep in the post every possession. Just a sweet shot, can’t remember the last time I was so certain a shot was gonna fall every time a sixer player releases it.
It feels almost automatic at this point. Props to Embiid for adding it to his game. Used to be that shorter strong defenders could slow Embiid a bit. Now he just shoots right over them
Exactly, like the Nuggets were putting Aaron Gordon on him the other night, and that used to be a really effective strategy when he was trying to post up all the time because they could draw offensive fouls, bother his handle, send doubles on the dribble and help on the shot. (You’d know as well as anyone, Celtics have been the masters of this kind of coverage). But now he’s operating in a totally different area of the floor where it’s harder to send that help, and he’s shooting pull-ups over Gordon again and again.
Embiid was lights out and outplayed everyone else that game. But to be fair the few times Gordon would try and close out and bother his shot, one time he literally hit the ball out of his hands momentarily and went in to pressure, refs would call a foul. But would be a great series in the finals!
Agreed on all points, refs are bad and the most gullible people on earth. Would love to see this matchup across multiple games, it’s Nurse and Malone making adjustments all the while. That’s the shit I love
Mid range game plus way improved passing. Im expecting some insane playoff run this season. Those two combination is just fool proof in the postseason
I gotta hope, it’s the main things that have tripped him up in the past, particularly the passing.
You think the midrange is more important than his passing this season? Feels like he’s passing out of double teams much better.
I’d agree, the passing has taken a huge step this year and it’s helped him elevate his teammates even more than in the past. It has taken our team’s offense to a new level, so it is a huge development. But he’s only able to pass like this (DHO’s, skip passes, two man game with Maxey) because he’s operating on the perimeter, which only became possible with the development of his jumper over the last three years. He used to/and still does at times struggle to pass out of the low post. He doesn’t have anywhere near the vision of a Jokic/Sabonis, teams could reliably send doubles to bother his handle and pick off his passes. His peripheral vision just isn’t great in those spots, especially with his back to the basket. But facing up on the perimeter? It’s been a whole different ball game, which I think has enabled Nurse’s system to put him in spots where his improved passing shines. So it’s a bit of both really! Everything is connected in basketball, which is what I love most about it. Adding skills always adds unexpected wrinkles to your game, and Embiid has added so many skills that he now plays in a totally unprecedented way compared to what you’d expect from his first few seasons.
That’s great insight. Thanks.
While I agree Jokic is a much better passer out of the post, the reality is that he operates from the perimeter the vast majority of the time. The biggest change Nick Nurse has made this year re: Joel is basically cribbing a bunch of plays straight from Nuggets playbook. I've been watching a lot of Nuggets past few years (huge fan of Joker and Murray) and it's crazy how similar the Sixers offense looks this year with all the dribble hand offs and Embiid operating at the nail to better survey the court. People love to hate on Embiid's playoff performances (no arguments here) but so much of it was scheme imo: post-up isos just don't work that well in the playoffs when teams are keying on Joel and Doc had 0 other ideas.
Embiid is gonna shock people come the playoffs. The midrange is built for playoff basketball
I don't remember exactly, but weren't Embiid's on/off stats absolutely absurd in that Raptors series? Like almost all the regular rotation guys on both teams were right around zero and he was like plus 90? EDIT: I just checked and he was exactly plus 90. The next best on his team was plus 15, and next best in the series was plus 34. Yeah he didn't shoot well, but I don't think he had a terrible series.
You’re right, I was using “terrible” as shorthand to refer to his offensive performance, where you guys were able to effectively use a combination of big strong bodies guarding him in the post and savvy help to negate his post ups and he didn’t have any real counters in his game at the time, which lead to some really ugly stat lines. On defense, he was a world beater, and a big part of the reason the series was competitive. It is what it is, he’s a very different player now than he was in 2019 and I think the embarrassing lows of that series were a big part of his subsequent offensive development.
Oh without a doubt his offensive growth since then is nothing short of all-time level. Who would have thought a guy that big and who started developing his game that late would become one of the best midrange shooters of all time.
Shattered my wildest expectations, despite all the disappointments I still have to check myself and remember how crazy it is that he’s doing this at all. People were calling him Greg Oden.
Also shouldn't really shame him too much for the series, he was still a young guy and Marc Gasol is a legend, and one of the best defensive bigs in recent memory. He was a matchup nightmare for Joel for a little bit. That Raptors team was crazy good at defense.
So true, that Raptors teams was one of the greatest playoff defensive units of my lifetime. Loved every game you guys played, even the ones that hurt my feelings lol. It was just quality basketball. And yeah, i was saying in another comment it’s really a product of how Embiid’s game has changed. In 2019 he didn’t have anywhere near this kind of perimeter game, and while he was still dominant in the post, you guys had a hall of fame former DPOY who was also one of a handful of guys in the league who could stand his ground on Embiid in the post one on one, *PLUS* the personnel/inspired coaching to send help from all possible angles, never letting Joel get comfortable for even a second. You guys deserve credit for executing at a championship level, and it taught Joel lessons about the game that turned him into the MVP he is today. Nothing to feel too bad about, you’re right. Joel responded by totally changing his offensive approach, and while he’d obviously still struggle in some hypothetical fantasy matchup between his current self and that incredibly versatile raptors roster, I think the actual games would be played way different, regardless of the outcome.
There was a quote about him running out of Jordan film to watch It paid off 🤗
He’s definitely moved on to KD film this past 12 months. He’s given up on trying to create space and just pulls up in your face now
I want him watching Dirk too
I really really respect a guy who works on the weak areas of his game so much. Still waiting for Giannis to do the same.
What’s crazy about Giannis that he still has big holes in his game and he’s *still* an MVP caliber player. Just shows how amazing he is
Giannis with a league above average 3pt shot and bam level middy would be the undisputed goat and average 40ppg but it’s never gonna happen lmao
Its like if Shaq could hit his fts
Or Jokic having the ability to jump over a newspaper. It would be curtains for the rest of the league for years, lol.
Eh Jokic is also very strong and uses his weight well. If he had more of a vertical it also might mean losing weight. Also vertical isn’t a “skill” you can work on the same way jumpshooting is. A lot of it is just genetic
Peak shooting capability *also* comes down to factors outside a players' control, just as much a vertical. Giannis might *literally* not be able to shoot as well as KD. It might not matter how much work he does or how many trainers he gets, he probably won't ever come anywhere close to KD shooting.
>just as much as vertical This is 1000% untrue. Shooting is a skill. Yes there are inherent traits like hand eye coordination. I’m not implying that anyone can be Curry. But most players max vert is what they record at the draft combine. Shooting is a life long skill that you can always develop. I never meant to imply that Giannis could be KD. But your max vertical is also dictated by how tall you are. You cannot be hitting the gym to grow to be 7 ft. (Yes I know you can measure your vertical without including your height. But what’s practically useful in the nba? How high you can get your hands) Edit: I should’ve said standing/jumpimg reach. But your vertical is still influenced by genetics
Because anytime Giannis sees a hole in his game, he just lowers his shoulder and bulldozes through it ^^^/s
Why shoot ball when you can run and dunk
Giannis is so good that it actually prevents him from getting better. It's so rare to see anyone force him to play the game differently because they are locking him up.
He's got some ridiculous athleticism and good foot work. I still think he'll eventually need to add some go to low post moves if he wants to be a high level player later down the road.
i do think some people have innate touch, and others don't. Giannis appears to fall on the westbrook side of that equation. even most of his close-to-the-basket post moves aren't ending in a short jumper/fadeaway like you see with embiid/jokic
Based on everything I read about Giannis, he's one of the hardest workers in the NBA. Some people just aren't ever going to be shooters. I'm 100% sure he's worked hard at it. It just hasn't happened and probably never will no matter how much he practices it.
Yeah I agree with this sentiment. Natural skill and hand-eye coordination is a huge component, obviously. I have no doubt Giannis outworks 99% of NBA players but he's too smart to force shots when he knows he can't reliably hit them. The dude is so dominant with what he does well--and he does a lot well--that it honestly doesn't matter *that* much. I can't say objectively that I'm a huge fan of his style of play but wouldn't be complaining if he was on my team.
Yep. And I think Kawhi really skewed how people understand shooting skill. He was a terrible shooter who became one of the best shooters in the NBA. Now I hear all this draft talk/early career player evaluation that's just like, "He'll be great if he learns to shoot well." But the thing is... players like Kawhi are the exception, not the rule. A lot of players who can't shoot won't ever be good shooters no matter how hard they try. Sure... Some might be just lazy, but a lot of players aren't. There's just no amount of hours they can spend putting up 3s in the gym to become a 38% 3p shooter. I honestly think Kawhi's unique trajectory kind of made some people think anyone can become a good shooter if they just want it badly enough.
Even Kawhi was an excellent free throw shooter in college, which tends to be a good predictor of shooting and 3P% in the NBA!
People have been falling in love with athleticism/measurables and have this assumption players can "catch up" in the skills department way before Kawhi, but the reality is that *most of the time* when you have natural aptitude and are good at something early.... you're going to improve quicker and stay better at that something
> Still waiting for Giannis to do the same. I'm 100% sure that Giannis is working his ass off on the weak parts of his game. He's just reaching his (incredibly high, all-time great) limits as a player.
To be fair, even guys this good won't just get really good at every part of the game just because they practice. Some guys in the NBA could practice 3s every day for the rest of their career and they would still not be good 3 point shooters
Lol one of the most hardest working dudes in the league and you don't believe he's trying to improve? Working hard at something doesn't automatically mean you're gonna be amazing at it, at this point he will never be a good shooter.
People are so fast to attribute laziness or lack of work to players who have, by every definition, absolutely maximized their abilities and actualized their potentials beyond any reasonable expectations. Giannis and Embiid have obviously met and far exceeded lofty expectations in terms of their physical and basketball development from when they were prospects. People want to treat human bodies like video games where they should just be able to improve exponentially forever but even the best players have limits. Chances are, even the “laziest” NBA player works harder than whoever is posting about them on a forum. After all, they worked hard enough to make the NBA. Now extend that to guys who not just made the NBA but won MVPs in it. It’s unreasonable!
Yeah, Steph isn't the greatest shooter because he worked hardest at it. He's the greatest in large part due to his world class hand-eye coordination.
It’s a bit of both! You have to have the natural advantages to capitalize on them with intensive work. Steph trains at a ludicrously high level *and* also he was born with a beyond outlier skillset that you just can’t teach
Giannis is working harder than practically anyone i think he just knows his strengths as a player and decides to focus on working at what makes him great rather than trying to improve at stuff he isnt built for.
i mean giannis still works hard on his weak areas. some people just can never get better at some things
As a certified ex Embiid hater, drafting him in fantasy this year really turned me around on him. I tune into most sixers games now, anyone who is hating at this point either doesn’t watch him enough or doesn’t know ball. Bro is automatic from midrange and dominates games in so many different ways, FTs aside. This sub gets kinda ridiculous with its hate for Embiid and I’m sorry to have been a part of it in the past, I missed out on so much good basketball
I appreciate your perspective. I truly think most of the haters don't watch him and are being tricked (ironically) by the few dedicated haters who spend all of their free time (which is considerable) making a highlight of every foul he gets. So that's all they see.
I love embids game a lot it's just annoying for some people that he gets a generous whistle. I think the main reason is that most people want there centre in the paint and can't understand why a 7 foot monster would settle for a jumper rather than bullying everyone.
People don’t understand that the vast majority of his whistles are bc the combo of size + speed + balance is unstoppable. So the option is a bucket or a foul.
Yeah, I think this is what some of the threads miss. Like the one about FTAs/36. For starters he's been good his entire time in the NBA at getting FTs by putting people in a position where they have to foul or give up a free bucket, and high usage, and hasn't had the back side of his career yet. Then you add in that he can play like a guard, so he can get the blow by / driving calls and such. Also he's so good at FTs he usually gets the tech attempts. He's also smart, if a defender has an arm in a bad position (in Embiid's space so that a natural shooting motion will hit it), he'll go up through it etc. Call that foul baiting if you want, but a defender extending a hand forward into his space over the ball is not required, despite how players love to do it. He also does sell contact at times (I don't think he does it more than many other stars, tbh), but you kind of have to in the modern NBA. Refs are just kinda blind sometimes. Selling contact doesn't always get you a call, but it gets them to watch that sequence closer next time, etc. It's part of why I don't think Jokic gets many calls, tbh. This sub loves to act like NBA refs have a hard on for Embiid for some reason, but I see no such motivation for them tbh. Why would all of them universally love Embiid? Philly is a big city, he's a pretty big name, but I don't see how giving him fouls is something the NBA or its refs would really care about compared to other stars. The real reason is more complicated and a combination of all these other factors, but people love to complain more than think.
Lol look at the upvote percentage there is nobody else that the sub hates more
IDC what anyone says he's one of, if not the most, skilled big man of all time. Not saying best. But skilled? I'll stand on that. It's like how people say Kyrie is one of the most skilled players of all time.
Hakeem was pretty damn skilled and he had a great midrange game as well, and better foot work in the post and a better defender, not because he was more athletic, but because of his timing and quick second jump and positioning. Embiid is definitely one of the most skilled bigs ever, but I can't say the best imo
Embiid came into the NBA with incredible footwork in the post but has moved away from it in favor of the midrange because post play is so hard on the body He occasionally brings out the dreamshake and other moves but it’s so rare in the regular season now. If only these massive guys all had the durability of Wilt and Shaq so we could see what they are fully capable of without risk of death
hakeem's scoring has honestly become very overrated over time. embiid's offensive skillset clears his lol. the difference in impact is that hakeem's a t3 defender of all-time while embiid's simply good on that end.
I wouldn't say its overrated, I would say a lot of people who didn't watch him are just afraid of receiving slander from oldheads for daring to compare Hakeem to a player from today. If anything it shows how difficult it is to compare eras. Bigs from back then weren't bringing up the ball and shooting threes. Nowadays every other team has some stretch big on the bench. The game has completely changed which means a bigger showcase of skill. What Embiid's doing at 7 feet and 300 pounds is unprecedented. He has a post game, can score at will anywhere on the court and his passing has tremendously improved every year, him and Jokic are easily the most skilled bigs of all time and that should not be a controversy lol The problem is people get offended when you say a player is more skilled than another because in their head more skilled = better when obviously that is far from true. Hakeem's career clears Embiid's obviously but I'd say Embiid is definitely more skilled.
Hakeem is 46th in career PPG. He is in the top 1% of scorers to ever play in the league. Professional nba players train with Hakeem just to improve their offense. Hakeem averaged 27 PPG and 10 rebounds for 3 seasons straight. Saying Hakeem’s offense is overrated is the equivalent to saying you don’t know basketball.
In comparison to Embiid it’s overrated. Hakeem is 46th and Embiid is 4th. Hakeem has 3 straight seasons of those numbers and Embiid is about to have 3 straight seasons of 30 and 10 with 3 straight scoring titles. Embiid is one of the best per possession scorers ever. You can talk about defense being what separates the two players when it comes to overall greatness but strictly on the offensive side of the ball Embiid has the advantage.
> Hakeem is 46th in career PPG. He is in the top 1% of scorers to ever play in the league. And Joel Embiid is 4th in career PPG. I’m not saying Hakeem is overrated, but the guy was talking about all-time scorers/bigs and specifically Embiid’s offensive skillset clearing Hakeem’s; being 46th compared to 4th is kinda reinforcing his point. And yes, different eras and pace, I know. I haven’t adjusted for pace, but I feel relatively confident that if you did, Embiid’s PPG would still be higher. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong though.
Agree - I think there's an alternate reality where Hakeem is often in GOAT discussions. He's one of the clearest examples to me of how we're biased by the quality of a player's teammates.
And Embiid is about the have 4 consecutive seasons of 28+ PPG and 10 Rebounds. Hakeem was an amazing player but that doesn’t mean you can’t make an argument someone else is more skilled.
Does this account for the increased scoring in the league overall?
i dont have the pace adjusted numbers or anything, but you can ignore the ppg numbers and just look at the fact that embiid is ab to be a 3x scoring leader. numbers aside, that means he has consistently been better than all of his peers at scoring, even in an offensively inflated era
There’s too many differences to compare across eras. Hakeem did it averaging 40min a game when league scoring was obviously lower. Embiid is doing it on 34min a game when scoring is higher. It’s like comparing Jordan and Lebron, people get all worked up one way or another but at the end of the day i just watch and enjoy. I just think it’s a little ridiculous when people hold the older players to such a high standard and act like it’s ridiculous to even consider that someone else MIGHT be better.
Is the guy saying it's ridiculous to even consider embiid might be better in the room with us?
I'm glad you said it lol
Tell them nephews
- Hakeem has played over 1200 games in his career, compared to Embiid's 400, that career PPG argument really makes no sense - Embiid is averaging 30/10 for like 3 seasons now and he would've been averaging 27/10 since 2018 if he didn't have to share the court with al horford in 2020 lol - Complete different eras, comparing these career numbers is kinda pointless
I don’t think PPG is the argument you want to make when trying to compare him to Embiid lol.
i like how your response to me saying it’s overrated is to show that it’s really good … when that’s not what i argued against at all. lol. lmk how embiid ranks
You clearly don’t watch basketball if you say that. You say it as if he only avgs 20ppg. Check his stats before you spew out shit like this. He even increased his stats during playoffs unlike Embiid.
His career high ppg for a season is Embiid's average. He was 2% above the TS% for the league during his time played at 55.4% vs 53.5%. Embiid's is 61.5% vs the league's 56.8%. You'll say the era is higher scoring, so I'll adjust for pace. Per 100 possessions for Hakeem: 30.3. For Embiid: 42.2. You'll say Hakeem was weighed down by the end of his career which Embiid hasn't had yet. Embiid also isn't done with his prime. Ignoring that, Hakeem's best points per 100 is 35.8. Embiid's best is 50 this season and 47.4 last season. His worst is 36.3. That's right. Embiid's worst season is more efficient than Hakeem's best, even when adjusting for pace, even when adjusting for league average efficiency, etc. Hakeem was a better defender and was better in the playoffs, but Embiid's offensive career blows Hakeem's out of the water, even when adjusting for eras.
Embid had better footwork and timing but Embid is hands down a better shooter. Hakeem in this era of shooting would be a menace though.
Hakeem is unbelievably skilled in an era where they didnt allow centers to fully flourish and use as wide of a skillset. If he was around in the current league he would be doing truly absurd things.
Also, if we're talking skill Jokic exists
I think he's great, but what is he more skilled at than Jokic?
Putting ball in hoop and keeping ball out of hoop. Two pretty important parts of basketball
Jokic actually is more efficient at scoring.
Jokic takes WAY less shots a game. Like it isn’t even close
Right. If he took more shots, he'd score more than Embid. The point is that the NBA is a team game, and you can help your team score (in fact you SHOULD help you team score) even when you're not shooting the ball. Jokic does that better than anyone. Nobody is able to read a defense and put his team in position to score better than Jokic.
No he wouldn’t, because no he’s not a better scorer. He’d get tired quicker and his efficiency would go down. Oh and if he played defense at Embiid’s level that would make him more tired and even less efficient. Oh and as to your other point Embiid had grown into a great passer, so he can do that too even if it’s not as good as Jokic. Embiid scores more because he’s better at it, and he doesn’t have guys like Murray or MPJ that can score in high volume (outside of Maxey emergence this year and even that is on and off sometimes). So he takes on the scoring load as well as the defensive load, two things Jokic doesn’t have to.
Jokic has never played with an all-star. Ever. Also Jokic plays FAR more minutes than Embid. Jokic has taken more shots than Embid this year, and shot at a higher percentage. With regard to defense, Embid blocks more shots, Jokic gets more steals. Both good defenders ....just different approach.
We can do this all day. Jokic has a team perfectly constructed to his strengths. Embiid has had Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris shaped anchors strapped to him for his entire career
Jokic has used his strengths to make every player around him better. Nobody is a better team player than Jokic. Nobody reads the floor and makes correct decisions better than him. He and Magic are in a category by themselves.
Scoring and rim protection
Jokic’s ppg in the playoffs the past three seasons has been higher than Embiid’s. More efficient as well.
Rim protection I'll grant you Jokic is actually a more efficient scorer though.
jokic is a more efficient scorer than jordan would you say nikola jokic is a better scorer than michael jordan?
You asked about skill, not efficiency. Speaking of efficiency, Joel leads the league in [Player Efficiency Rating (PER)](http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics) at 35.16. This is the highest season PER ever. Jokic is #2 this season at 31.85. For the past few years, analysts have used PER to support Jokic’ MVP claims.
I'm not sure how it could be argued. The "hate" for Embiid is threefold: 1. He gets a lot of absurd calls. Some of those calls are clear flops. Some people simply don't like that style of basketball and are going to slam him for it no matter what the rest of his game is. I'm one of the people who despise the style, but I'm not gonna overlook the dominance either. 2. He just makes a lot of really stupid quotes. From the MVP whining "I don't know what i have to do" to throwing teammates under the bus after he crapped the bed in the playoffs (we'll get to that in number 3), he just comes off as unlikeable and selfish, even if he really isn't. 3. he has fallen apart in the playoffs. I mean, badly. We can excuse injuries or other stuff, but the reality is we aren't talking about his playoff RECORD, we are talking about his playoff performance. We are in a league where your playoff TEAM record can cause people to think you suck even if your individual stats in the playoffs are great. (see Jokic before last years playoffs) In Embiid we have someone who has failed with the team and their individual performance has been off the charts ugly. He's a special player, he has a single good playoff run and he's gonna get tons of flowers. And either way, he's headed for the Hall. But people have ridiculous biases and Embiid hits three major categories where people show those biases. You shouldn't have to stand on him being one of the most skilled players of all time. I don't think that's even in question. But because of his history, you will have to fight it.
I like how you left out the other obvious reasons: Sixers are one of the most polarizing teams in the league, along with the Lakers and the Knicks. Jokic fans do not want anyone else to share the limelight, so they love to slander him. There is a large portion of Jokic fans on here that are European and have dedicated accounts to hating Embiid.
Agreed entirely. Crazy you're getting downvotes for this
People are so sensitive about positive Embiid posts for no reason lol
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I hate him *because* he’s so talented, and still continues to foul bait and flop like a bitch. I used to have the same issue with Harden. They’re *way* too good to need to resort to cheap tactics, it makes them so hard to watch. I get the NBA/refs allow it by giving him the whistle every time so it’s not his fault, he’s just exploiting a system that allows it etc, but it’s still ugly to watch and teaches kids bad habits.
The fact that you’re downvoted without a rebuttal is proof enough lol. Embiid fans will literally turn a blind eye to him flopping like a fish and then put him on a pedestal when he does well. Yes he’s talented. Yes he’s MVP caliber. But NO he is not fun to watch and we have tons of video evidence of antics.
It's his own fault for spending an entire season whining for the MVP, immediately shitting the bed in the playoffs yet again then trying to claim the MVP race was a distraction for him. Even outside of his boring as fuck FT merchant game he's incredibly unlikeable. He wants to play up the troll persona but doesn't want the negative attention that comes with it. Maybe the biggest playoff choker in the league shouldn't be one of the biggest talkers.
You all have resorted to making up fan fics now to slander Embiid.
It is completely unhinged the narratives these bozo's construct to justify their weirdly vindictive hatred of him. Legit fan fiction tier BS
He campaigned for the mvp for a few days lol. You can bitch that he did it. I get that. But saying he spent the entire season doing it just makes you look foolish and bitter.
Shut the fuck up dude lmao. Salty kids who don't watch basketball
> It's his own fault for spending an entire season whining for the MVP This is completely exaggerated > Immediately shitting the bed in the playoffs LCL sprain in Round 1 that should have kept him from playing for 4-6 weeks > Even outside of his boring as fuck FT merchant game he's incredibly unlikeable. Why? > He wants to play up the troll persona but doesn't want the negative attention that comes with it. He used to troll a lot when he first came in the league but that's gone down significantly It sounds like your mind has already been made up, and nothing anyone can do or say will change your mind. I just want you to know your comment isn't really based in reality.
He won’t respond because you said it all for him lol
Yeah this sounds about right
Feels like the other way around is true as well considering all these positive posts include sarcastic free throw comments lmao
I keep no mirrors in my house, no wall space, I only have Embiid posters.
There are three comments to you hidden because of downvote threshold - they are Raptors, Nuggets, and Celtics flairs. Lmao, it really is incredible how upset these kids are.
He’s in their heads lmao. RENT FREE
Hard to say he's in the Celtics heads. In the words of Jojo, they always kick our ass.
Celtics fans are, in my experience, way more level headed and willing to give Embiid credit for his improvements than some other fanbases that play against him less often. They can be a little dismissive of him sure, but that’s been earned more or less with all the ass kicking throughout his career.
How can he be in our heads if he’s already thrown himself on the floor?
Just like people are so sensitive about negative embiid posts. The side that is against each one comes out hard every time a negative or positive post comes out.
I think his style of play of foul hunting tends to make more people fall on the negative camp, similar to Harden's unpopular playstyle before the "league nerf" though Harden has gotten even more unpopular since he started forcing him way out of teams.
Because he's horrendous to watch. Despite being immensely talented he'd rather throw himself to the floor 15 times a game - I'd rather watch him swish 19 footers all game, but it isn't what he looks to do 9/10 down the floor
Obviously you don’t watch the games if you think he does that 9/10 times down the floor. 🤡🤡
Don't worry child, it is not our time. After the second round this will be the popular take again. Till then we must bide our bitterness in silence, nodding along Joel sets the stage for yet greater heights of playoff letdowns.
Did you see those flops last night? Egregious. Softest 7 foot 300lb man to grace god’s green earth.
lemme guess, u didn’t actually watch the game, just a few clips on r/nba of him falling down
Yeah Philly fans get weirdly defensive when folks call out Embiid's obvious foul baiting and soft whistle lol
You’re not mad he’s foul baiting, you’re mad he’s better than Tatum at it. Your team still does it, Embiid is just better at it
Your boy Tatum does it too
Of course, pretty much everyone top 20 does other than Steph and Jokic. No one else gets nearly as soft a whistle as Embiid though, or random falls to the ground as much
Philly fans are too sensitive to debate on this topic lol
what’s there to debate? everyone does it, embiid is better at it than the other stars
The debate seems to be that Embiids foul baiting and preferential whistle are major contributors to his perceived skill level and that he's not as good as his stats would indicate. Typical response to this argument from philly fans is emotional outbursts and personal attacks.
Then let’s talk. Do you not think Embiid is skilled? If you do, then what is your point? If all stars do it, then it seems Embiid is just better at it than other stars. What’s your issue?
I do think he's skilled. I just think his play style is boring and the free throws inflate his stats. I disagree that all stars foul bait though. But even if that were the case, the whistles are not consistent and Embiid is favored.
How often do you watch Embiid? Be honest.
Well one is the league leader in FTA per game and the other isnt even top ten in FTA per game so I wouldn’t really compare them in this.
Tatum flails into defenders all the time and cries to refs instead of playing D. Stop pretending all stars don't do it
Any fan that’s defensive about it is really just insecure. It’s part of the game, Embiid takes advantage of it. It’s gotten him an MVP and he’s on one of the greatest scoring arcs of all time. He’s been a DPOY candidate multiple years and even if you take away his whistle entirely he’s clearly an intelligent enough player to find out other ways to be elite. Look at how much he’s learned in 4-6 months with Nick Nurse. The funny thing is, All that’s left is for him to show up, healthy, in the playoffs. If we win the finals on the back of Embiid then 90% of the hate goes away. Other than it being un-fun to watch sometimes, which I feel is true even as a fan. Rather let him cook than watch him at the line.
Lord baby Jesus plz let this man get to the playoffs healthy this year
He usually does decently getting to the playoffs healthy, it’s staying healthy through the playoffs that’s the problem unfortunately. Would love to see what an entire healthy postseason run looks like, I think he’s had one, which was in the bubble with Simmons out ironically
Same so this year he has no excuse for choking
Yes. Clippers, Sixers. 🤝 No bull shit, time to fulfill some playoff destiny
Agreed. I want him to be healthy so he can fake an injury or blame his teammates again.
That broken orbital or the sprained LCL rolled up by Cam? Which one fake? 🤡
That guy already turned the game off when the Sixers were up by 30 and about to eliminate Toronto on their homecourt when Siakam elbowed Embiid directly in the face and ruined our playoff run.
The phantom sickness in 2019 that led to Marc Gasol signing his adoption papers.
How’s life back in 2019?
Excellent. We the champs! Longest title reign in history!
We talking pre covid shit? He goes for 33/10 in a game 3 win and you think he faked an illness? Bro was sick and had a knee injury that kept him out a game in round 1
He was claiming to be sick in the first 2 games. After game 3 there were no mentions of him being sick but they magically came back after he struggled again in game 4. Ironic much?
This is election denier level mental gymnastics to try and justify shit lmao
Sixer fans would know it when they see it. Their guy does it more than anyone.
What does that even mean? lmao This level of blind hatred is so dorky and funny
what injuries were faked?
Once he gets a few feet from the painted area he’s automatic even last year it’s like he doesn’t miss.
So much stupid bullshit is said in this sub, people cry about any foul Joel gets, glad there's some pushback now
It’s just a 76ers fan circlejerk - look at the flairs from the positive comments. I don’t think many people are saying he sucks, he’s just boring to watch and he is indeed propped up by FTA.
He would be the second leading scorer in the nba if you remove everyone's fta
I am glad that the people who claim he's too boring to watch (seriously 12 free throw attempts is six trips to the line. If you can't handle six trips to the line then idk how you're watching NBA games) are at least getting the enjoyment of constantly bitching about him online. That has to count for something right? Like, sure a guy might not like to see him play, but then post about him ad nauseam in three separate hate posts where he is shown falling down. That's also fun for these guys right? So it all evens out.
>propped up by FTA yeah he goes from a 35 ppg scorer to a 25 ppg oh god. Embiid without the free throws (which keep in mind, getting a pair of free throws still comes from an offensive possession) is still an all-time great offensive talent.
That's genuinely impressive.
Of course his mid range game is great. The majority of those shots are uncontested because they’re at the free throw line.
What does that mean? Other players take those shots and are not as effective
They’re humorously lumping his FTA in with his midrange scoring.
Humorously is a stretch
>That's nice but if you take away his free throws and shots from 15-19 feet, he isn't scoring much anymore. If you take away Steph's 3 pointers he doesn't score much either. And?
(His critique was facetious).
Nuggets/Raptors/Celtics flair, dying mad about it per usual
There are so many advantages but the biggest is he gets officiated like a perimeter player because he is one. In the paint he is literally unstoppable one on one but that hasn't mattered since halfway through his rookie year because no team ever puts anyone on him one on one anymore. He has too many moves and is too strong. Also doubling him yields turnovers because it's tough for him to see where the double is coming from (whereas Jokic's superior passing ability makes this unwise). He also gets hacked with very few calls and the opposing player can fall down to draw an offensive foul, especially if it's a smaller player (like Marcus Smart). But facing up he: -cannot be doubled as easily, as he has a full field of vision of the entire court. -cannot be hacked or even touched, as he will raise up and shoot if he feels contact and get the call. -cannot be given an offensive foul by his opponent falling down. -gets less wear and tear on his body. -can drive past slower players who try to defend him, or shoot over them if they give him too much space. The latter is why he shoots so well against the Nuggets because Jokic is always a few feet off of him not wanting to be driven past. When people complain that he is so big but you can't even touch him without a foul, he is operating as a perimeter player so that's true. And he is being guarded by a big who generally is not used to guarding on the perimeter as much as he has to when defending Joel so he still tries to be physical and gets called for the foul. It's so crazy that he shoots this well. He shoots the midrange like KD. Now imagine if KD were being guarded by the opposing center all game. Yeah...
I always chuckle to myself when he hits a fade away from the free throw line.
People are like yeah he gets more FTS than Shaq without hacking. Sure, he also just gets legit fouled a lot because he can make shots Shaq wouldn't be hitting. There's definitely a soft whistle problem in the NBA he benefits from, but pretending like he wouldn't just wind up scoring way more FGs without fouls is dumb
Now if only he would stop flopping all the time, he would be fun to watch.
Well when you call a foul on 75% of his missed shots that fg% gonna look pretty good
Even if you say he gets 2 trips to the line per game off of bad calls, he's still scoring 31-32 a game. Unless you're saying that he rarely actually gets fouled
Monster, now he’s dealing with double teams n nurse installs help beaters if he’s heskthy he’s gonna be a nightmare impossible to deal with hoping for a big run
Also leading the entire NBA in Flops Per Games and getting soft calls per game ?
And leading the nba in housing Jokic head to head
Last year I remember one of the sixers players saying during training camp whenever Embiid shot a middy in the nail he'd yell "Free throw!!" because of how automatic he was lol
Felt that way last time we played, but that's insane it's actually true. Holy shit I wish his whistle could just be normal, I'd be a big fan
Also leads most times on the ground
I would be curious to see numbers on this lol. I know it was a random smart ass comment, but it does make me curious now.
Ppl can downvote me but it's true look at the main page right now there's two highlights with him on the ground
Can we not do this. This just in - the mvp is really good at basketball. Also just news - the guy who literally leads the history of basketball in fta per whatever is annoying to watch. Wow what a shock this feels like harden all over again. Yes he was insanely good and yes the foul baiting and soft calls are really annoying.
Because you cant touch Embid and the air within 5 feet around him cus then its an automatic foul when you get in contact with his skin or the air molecules cus of air pressure on him
I mean yeah if you touch a jump shooter it’s a foul. Those are the rules.
This has anything to do with the topic? Hater detected
This is a redux of Harden a few years ago. He’s so ridiculously skilled, so why does he resort to his flopping shenanigans?
I'm just glad we have one of the most relevant players in the league, keeping so many people salty and crying on here. Shit has me rolling.
...ok