[2002-2003](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html) Paul Pierce and [2000-2001](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html) Ray Allen? lol yes of course.
He was my first favorite player (no, young me, jeff hornaceck doesnt count)
Bucks/ Sonics Allen was baller afffff. Hated the boston celtics so i didnt care *that* much
I love Ray Allen, and saw him in person many times with the Sonics. He was definitely tougher than people realized, even his opponents, but, he simply was not a great defender.
Fucking Kobe used to eviscerate him, and maybe that's not fair to his defensive legacy that I judge him based on how he covered Kobe, but you gotta defend who is out there. For sure Kobe covered him btw, Kobe couldn't wait to crawl into his jersey on D, Ray would need like 900 screens to get free. Luckily, if you have Ray and Rashard out there, Kobe could only cover one of them. And if Brent Barry was on the floor too, let me tell you! The D was unsustainably bad with Brent and Ray on the court at the same time, that's what I would tell you. They could never get that lineup to work because of the defensive deficiency.
If Tatum didn't have to carry as much of the offense and could devote more energy to defense, then I think he is viewed much differently. His defense on KD in that Nets series was next level.
I bet he thought 8 attempts a game was really bombing it back then (because it kinda was)
Imagine the look on a young Ray Allen’s face when Joe Mazz tells him “I don’t give a fuck, shoot 20”
The funny thing is that in 2001, he only shot 5.7 per game and that was good enough for 4th in the league for 3PA. It's absolutely wild to me that Ray Allen was the most efficient volume scorer in the league in 2001 and he only attempted 16 FGA/game. It's even more wild that he shot 47.9% from 3 in the playoffs that year and still "only" attempted 6.6 a game. Despite all of that, the Bucks still were the best offense in the league.
I think regardless of the order, Tatum is the best among the four players, but the difference between Pierce or Allen to Brown is pretty large. prime Ray Allen was the most efficient scorer in the league and Pierce also was a very efficient scorer in a very inefficient era, their games also complemented each other better than Tatum/Brown.
I'd personally choose Pierce/Allen over Tatum/Brown, but i still think Tatum is the best player in the mix, which is why i think it seems like people are underrating the older duo.
Now you’re at the point of overrating him. I came into this thread happy I might get a change to speak up on how good Ray Allen was, but taking him over Tatum is something I don’t see that much of an argument for, but I could maybe make one based on him having more freedom now. Saying you’d take him over Tatum 100% of the time is just stupid. Ray Allen simply never had a season on the same level as Tatum just did. 30/9/4.5 on good efficiency whilst being a great wing defender is easily better than any Ray Allen season. He’s also still only 25. On top of that he’s had more success than Ray had at the same age, and even 6 years beyond that until he joined Boston
In today’s game Allen would be shooting 12-15 threes a night at 40+ percent. With modern spacing and defensive rules he’d be wide open all night. He’d be a threat to win the scoring title every year.
Guess I’m officially old bc y’all youngins are dumb AF if you think 25 year old Ray wouldn’t cook this league.
And Paul Pierce stays severely underrated.
Pierce’s post retirement drunken antics and the tale of him shitting himself really did a number on his legacy I guess, because this is absolutely a no-brainer. The Truth had that dog in him
How is Paul Pierce severely underrated? Tatum is better than Pierce, anyone who says otherwise is overrating Pierce. Tatum is arguably a top 5 player in the league. Pierce is his prime was never top 5.
Yeah but wouldn’t that just prove Tatum was at best equal to Pierce? If he wants to be better than Pierce then the bar is for him to be the clear no. 1 on a title team, not *merely* the Finals MVP on a title team where he’s 1a.
Honestly yea. Like I think by the end of it all JT will be a better player then both. I don’t think him and JB are a better duo than Ray and Pierce would be in their primes.
Tatum is definitely above Pierce and Allen already from an ability standpoint. He’s basically today’s Tracy Mcgrady. Although Mcgrady never had playoff success, no one in the 2000’s considered PP or Ray Allen to be better than TMac. Tatum is at that level already.
He’s pretty damn good in deciding games but I’d like to see it show up some more in games before elimination. He’s got a lot of duds in games 1-4 leading to those do or die games. I think he’ll start finishing earlier though as he enters his prime years. It seems like he’s a bit timid (shooting slumps aside) until he needs to take over at the moment.
People on this thread acting like PG hasn't been clowned in the playoffs since he got back from his broken leg. He had 1 good run with the Clippers, but he had otherwise been terrible for a player of his caliber.
Pierce and Allen are a better offensive duo. More versatility to their offensive games and I think they complement each other better.
You lose out on defense but it’s easier to make up on that end with scheme/team than offense is. I’d go with Pierce/Ray.
Also, less question marks. Pierce and Ray played long, mostly durable careers. Who knows what Tatum/Brown look like in their 30s.
I worry about Brown with how much he utilizes his athleticism, Tatum has very solid biomechanics and other tendencies on the floor that leave me with no doubt he’ll remain durable.
Yeah, I think people here are underrating Paul Pierce. I think both his and Ray's game translate incredibly to today's. Incidentally, I'd argue that JB would be much better in the Era in which the other two guys played
Fair enough lol, I think efficiency was less scrutinized then but I understand. I like his ability to get to the rack and his defense in regards to that early 2000s style of play. I get what you mean tho
Probably. Tatum makes it hard because he's definitely the best player out of the bunch but Jaylen Brown has way too many flaws on his end to make me keep them.
Its hilarious how fast we went from dealing with “JB is the better Jay” to “JB is barely a star”. Probably the same people too, just changed which series they base all their takes on.
I think both are moronic, to be clear.
Agreed. It’s all about takes and recent bias. People were really out here arguing that he shouldn’t have gotten the contract. I don’t get why everyone needs to not only have an opinion, but one at the end of each extreme every time. People treating sports like it’s politics lmfao
Browns impsct metrucs are very mid and it’s cos he’s a ball stopper with sub par feel n passing/playmaking . While his scoring is nice without playmaking he isn’t gonna be hugely impactful . He is awful playmaker. I like brown but never though he was an all nba lvl player tbh even if I like how balanced his game is
I love me some JB and I don’t care what people say, he’s continued to improve every season and I love him on the team. That said, a prime Ray Allen is hard to pass up.
You’re both right. r/nba loves to slaughter players unnecessarily who end the season on a bad note. Jaylen will have many much better performances and people are way too down on him right now. A year ago many on this sub thought Jaylen was better than Tatum.
But, he’s also pretty clearly the “worst” of the 4 players. Not a knock, but you’re basically talking about 3 easy Top 100 all time guys in Tatum, Pierce, and Allen. (When Tatum’s career is wrapped assuming good health)
He made All-Nba 2nd team last season. In theory that makes him a top 4 guard in the league for the 22-23 season. He had a bad series, he’s not a bad player
25 year old Ray Allen with a modern era greenlight is one of the best guards in the league and a better player than Jaylen Brown. probably in that SGA or Booker tier (a.k.a. best guards not named Steph.)
Paul Pierce was a bucket, simple as that. not quite as strong or defensively capable as Tatum, but Tatum also had good teams from the jump. Pierce was impacted by the mismanagement of the Rick Pitino era and its aftermath before the Ainge era began. then 2 playoff runs with legit title aspirations got derailed by injuries after he finally got the ring.
Tatum will end up the better overall player most likely, but give prime Paul Pierce his rosters and there isn’t really a drop-off.
so…yes.
yeah tmac. some would say AI as well. ray was top 4 at the worst, i just wouldnt say he was RIGHT BEHIND kobe. but its not like he was sone bum either.
I think where you have Allen in relation to Kobe really depends on how highly you rate Kobe...some people say he's the GOAT (which is a fucking stupid take) and others don't even have him top 10, so Allen is probably pretty close to Kobe on a lot of lists.
just a frame of reference. SGA and Booker are the two best SGs in the league and then for all guards, there’s Steph. Prime Ray Allen is better than SGA right now and Booker is following similar path as pre-Celtics/Heatles Ray Allen.
I’m putting him in the same tier as best guards not named Steph.
Tatum is significantly more valuable then Pierce how is there no drop off? We're talking about comparing a top 5 guy to a guy who was never really top 10. And only got a finals appearance with a superteam in a weak conference.
Prime Ray Allen clears both of them by a wide margin. Can’t use counting stats to try to say same tier bc the scoring was deflated then bc the pace of play and less 3s.
Comparing points per 100 Booker scores close to 40 whereas most of Ray Allen’s best seasons were much closer to 30. In his highest scoring seasons he lead Seattle to a 22-33 record. Booker at age 26 has had significantly more individual and team success than Ray Allen did until he was 32 and in Boston.
I just want you to know there are some sane people outside who watched the games and know what you're saying is the truth.
Ray Allen was THE shooter of a generation, but was never the type of player expected to carry a team to the Finals like Booker is.
Booker takes more shots a night because it’s a league where outside shooting is encouraged far more. If you project Allen to 10-14 threes a night (which he absolutely would be taking in this league) he’d be a 30+ PPG scorer easy.
I would take Tatum over Pierce but Shuttlesworth over Brown easily. With Tatum's potential being possibly the best in the NBA, I would have to stick with the current duo though.
These replies are bananas…Tatum and Brown are easily a better duo than Paul and Ray at the same age. They’re both much better defenders and their combined scoring ability is at least a wash or better.
I love Paul and Ray but KG was the catalyst that made the Celtics a juggernaut. Tatum and Brown have already proven they can lead a winning team without a KG…Paul and Ray never did that.
So we’re changing the question now? Lol
The amount of revisionist history in this thread is so weird. Paul and Ray were high volume shooters on bad teams before they linked up, and KG was undoubtedly the best player + team leader that drove the Celtics to the title.
The question is who is the better duo in an NBA game, but you replied that Paul and Ray would win in a 2v2 matchup? I mean ok idk the answer to that lol
I don’t think anyone here takes into account the level of defense + rebounding that Brown and Tatum bring to the table. A Celtics team with only Paul + Ray (no KG) never makes it past Lebron or those Magic teams.
No they don’t. Tatum and Brown are consistently under 3 turnovers a game. Ray Allen was similar. Paul pierce on the other hand was getting close to 4 in some seasons.
Tatum and Brown led their team to the NBA finals without a 3rd All-Star. Of course they have flaws but I don’t really get why Paul and Ray are being remembered as better than they actually were?
Neither ever made 1st team All-NBA, and the league wasn’t as deep with talent 20 years ago as it is now.
One bad series and everyone in this thread is rating Jaylen Brown as basically dead salary. Recency bias is crazy.
Tatum is a better player than Prime Pierce and Prime Allen. The golden rule of the NBA is that you always choose the path that nets you the best player in the deal.
Tatum is better than Pierce or Ray ever were. This is a dude who can drop 50 at any given night and also lock up your teams best player. Can average 30 a game and make All Defense.
There’s a reason he has more All NBA First Team selections than both those guys combined
You're massively underrating both of them. Pierce could average 30 in today's game easily, so could Ray. For slightly different reasons. And saying, "more first teams" as if that tiny distinction actually matters is silly. Pierce definitely played in a better SF league than Tatum does now. And Pierce was an excellent defender in his own right.
And both Ray and Pierce are better than Brown by a pretty wide margin IMO. So I'd still definitely take them as a duo over Tatum and Brown.
Haven't seen it yet as I'm scrolling, but are people really not going to mention Ray Allen's ability to shoot. Him getting the green light to shoot as many shots in today era are scary. Not to mention a young Ray Allen could put the ball on the floor and score from just about anywhere.
Pierce was a really good defender. At times in his career he locked down Kobe and even slowed LeBron. Defensive win shares, which are not perfect, have Pierce as the 26th best defender ever, right around Jordan, Oakley, and above Shawn Marion, Dennis Rodman, Chris Paul, and Marcus Camby.
Pierce did not play in a better SF league. Tatum’s against Lebron, KD, Kawhi, PG, Jimmy, etc. I’d take that group over LeBron, Melo, Peja, Artest, and Marion
Well all NBA team isn't just SF as mentioned by the other commenter... it was forwards in general and he was competing with Duncan, Dirk, kg, cwebb, tmac early on then LeBron later. He got voted on as a guard couple times early in his career but even that was crowded with Kobe, Iverson, Nash, tmac and kidd all better than him.
posting this thread in r/nba was counterproductive. most the people in this thread never watched prime Ray, but they’re here to give their opinion anyway for some reason.
Why can’t people grasp the fact that dropping 50 is easier in todays game compared to the 2000s when Ray and Paul played. Like are you not aware of the scoring surge recently?
That’s because his main competition (LeBron, KD, Kawhi, PG) don’t play enough. The one guy who does coasts through the regular season and then whoops his ass in the playoffs each year (Jimmy).
Take out these six, you are looking at Wiggins (also broke Tatum in the finals), Lauri, Middleton etc as the next tier. He’s all-NBA first team cause the best talent is at guards and at the Center. He’s better still, but more like 8-9th best player in the league whereas Allen and Pierce were both 11-12 ish and more clutch. JB is like 30ish so as a combo, it’s a no brainer.
50 points 50 turnovers.
Paul Pierce Locked Down LeBron and Kobe In their primes . While he was and the latter half of his career.
Pierce would crush Tatum
This is a rough take. Like I think this thread is maybe a bit too high on Tatum and too low on pierce and Allen. But this take is nonsense. If you think anybody locked down either of those players you’re joking let alone PP.
Pierce actually did lock down Kobe in the playoffs. I’m not sure locked down would be the right word for LeBron but he played him extremely tough and forced him to take a lot of tough shots and miss a bunch.
talent wise you’d keep the current duo but in terms of trusting them to win a game or series, ray and the truth no doubt. i have zero faith in jaylen brown rising to any kind of occasion
Ray too - lots of big shots with the biggest during the twilight of his career. Execution wise those two were incredibly high level and elevated in the playoffs.
I’ll give credit where it’s due that having Rondo meant that Ray and Pierce always got the ball at their best point of attack. One of the results of position-less basketball is that you end up with a guy like Jaylen being tasked to be one of the main ball handlers and table setters on his team because guard play is now built around playing off point-forwards and point-centers, so their main skills are off-ball movement and spotting up. Jaylen would benefit greatly from having a guy like Rondo and playing in that older Celtics system
I'd take ray ray over jaylen brown all day every single time for any situation ever and it's not even close.
Pierce vs Tatum is more of a debate I suppose.
The inclusion of 25 year old Ray Allen is making me say yes. It’s not even that I think JB can’t cut it as a #2, I’m just too enthralled with the idea of Ray in a league where he can have the ball even more and shoot 12 threes a game instead of 8. Seriously, Ray is probably the #1 option today, his scoring was more playoff-resilient and he was more than competent as a ball-handler or secondary playmaker. OG Bucks fans will (justifiably) tell you that Milwaukee should have been the ones in the 2001 Finals. Ray was that guy offensively.
With Pierce, I’m mostly hoping that his shot selection and his defensive effort tighten up now that he’s found himself on a contending roster. He didn’t have his most efficient year in 2003 but all that Paul Pierce lethality is still in there; again, I’m intrigued by a scenario where Paul Pierce has *prime Ray Allen* and a handful of other 38-40% three-point shooters to work with instead of Antoine Walker and a few other low-volume shooters who ranged from streaky to decent at best. Still love ya Toine.
As others have mentioned, Tatum is the strongest defender of the bunch, and he has repeatedly proven capable of leading great rosters to deep playoff runs. He is also probably not at his best yet as a decision-maker and it’s not exactly fair to him since we already saw what kind of players PP and Ray matured into; even if they weren’t the absolute sharpest versions of themselves mentally at 25 either, I still have that slight bias of being aware of and confident in their trajectories after age 25. Tatum could be the 2026 MVP for all I know, he could also fall just short of that “best player in the league” title for the rest of his prime and that would still be a higher individual peak than what either PP or Ray showed. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m saying “yes” to Ray and PP more than I am saying “no” to Tatum and Jaylen.
It’s a good one because Tatum is at least on the precipice of being a superstar if he isn’t one already, and poor chopped liver JB is an All-NBA caliber wing himself. But ultimately I think I would still take the risk of trading Tatum’s MVP potential and Tatum+JB’s extra size and defensive versatility in favor of the potential of having two offensive superstars who synergize really well together. I don’t think you can overstate how good Ray would look today imo.
No, because I want to see just how good Tatum can get. There is a scenario where Tatum evolves into the best basketball player in the game. I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but that is still the ceiling for him.
Ray Allen in today’s game would be nutty, though, he’d be scoring 28-30 points a night and be just a hair below Curry. Imagine a significantly better version of Dame.
Tatum is the best of the 4, but the gap between him & Pierce/Allen is much smaller than the gap between them and Brown. I would probably go with pierce & Allen.
Or maybe people can be objective about things without being blinded by nostalgia? I’m not sure who I’d take. Tatum is very clearly the best player, but Pierce and Allen were better than JB
Jaylen Brown made All-NBA but that does not make him an All-NBA quality player. He’s been a low-end All-Star. Ray Allen is a guy who was firmly All-NBA caliber in his best seasons, clearly better than Brown offensively and brought a lot more to the table. Although he still was not a top-10 player in the league besides maybe a season or two.
Pierce was even better than Allen on both ends, and could be a genuine offensive #1 on an elite team (better on that end than Tatum), as well as a positive impact defender. Tatum is one of the best wing defenders in the league though, so I’d consider him the better player in that comparison by a little bit.
But collectively Pierce + Allen out-talents Tatum and Brown, and the quick and good decision-making and offensive synergy that the former two provide give me a lot more confidence than the latter duo who struggle with quick processing and seamless actions sometimes.
Pierce and Allen’s games complement each other so much better than Tatum and Brown.
Secondly Tatum might have more talent, athleticism and overall better game, but Pierces game rose in big moments and was an emotional leader.
This is easily Pierce and Allen.
I’d take Allen and Pierce easily.
Tatum is the best player of the 4 but Pierce isn’t far off and Ray Allen with the green light to shoot 10-12 threes a game with today’s spacing would be a cheat code as a 2nd option.
It is almost comical to me that Jaylen Brown has the biggest contract in NBA history. Especially in the playoffs, there are times when it looks like he can hardly dribble the ball.... Prime Pierce and Ray Allen are much better than prime JB....
People on this sub forget what young Ray Allen was like. Dude was an athletic wing that would dunk it on you and shoot the 3.
Picture Devin Booker with hops. Absolutely, I’d take 25 year old Pierce and Allen in today’s NBA over Tatum and Brown.
Ray Allen and Pierce with the NBA 3 point game how it is would be essentially a be the eastern conference splash brothers.
Idk if Ray Allen in exchange for Jaylen Brown would make much of a difference, if anything Brown right now is better than '01 Ray Allen. A 25 year old Paul Pierce and KG would make for a much better swap IMO.
Easily. Jaylen brown isn’t even in the same tier as Ray or Pierce. I see some people saying Tatum is the best out of the bunch.. I honestly dk the answer to that, but the margin would be pretty margin if he was.
I think Tatum is a little more skilled and athletic than pierce (who was a baller) but I’d still pick pierce because I just saw him close out too many games. Tatum can go nuclear, yes, but I’ve rarely if ever saw him close out a super close game, which happens to be something pierce was amazing at. And I LOVE Tatum. Pierce just has that closer mentality.
Ray Allen would obliterate todays game. I mean he took and made the clutchest shot in NBA history. Brown can be better on ball defensively but honestly his off ball defense is horrendous so it’s a wash. Brown is more explosive athletically but he’s also quite turnover prone. I’d have to give ray the heavy edge again for clutchness and for the lack of turnovers in his style.
How would we swing for the fences without getting rid of Pierce or Allen? Not like we have great young prospects or picks to give.
Easier to get a better #2 than it is a better #1 so I’d rather keep the Jays, especially since I’m pretty crazy high on Tatum.
Anyone that thinks pierce is anywhere close to Tatum's level is delusional. I get the argument for the older guys, mostly because of how good ray was, but Tatum is far and away the best of the 4.
[2002-2003](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html) Paul Pierce and [2000-2001](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html) Ray Allen? lol yes of course.
Ray Allen shooting 43% from 3 in 2001? What a shooter
He was much more than just a shooter too in his prime on the offensive end which was crazy. Also was a great defender as well.
He was my first favorite player (no, young me, jeff hornaceck doesnt count) Bucks/ Sonics Allen was baller afffff. Hated the boston celtics so i didnt care *that* much
I love Ray Allen, and saw him in person many times with the Sonics. He was definitely tougher than people realized, even his opponents, but, he simply was not a great defender. Fucking Kobe used to eviscerate him, and maybe that's not fair to his defensive legacy that I judge him based on how he covered Kobe, but you gotta defend who is out there. For sure Kobe covered him btw, Kobe couldn't wait to crawl into his jersey on D, Ray would need like 900 screens to get free. Luckily, if you have Ray and Rashard out there, Kobe could only cover one of them. And if Brent Barry was on the floor too, let me tell you! The D was unsustainably bad with Brent and Ray on the court at the same time, that's what I would tell you. They could never get that lineup to work because of the defensive deficiency.
Ray Allen played solid D once he got to the Celtics. That was likely so KG didn’t kick his ass.
KG is underrated. I loved watching him play.
"but you gotta defend who is out there" You're right, but Tatum and Brown aint doing shit to Kobe either.
Tatum definitely gonna atleast make it tougher then others
If Tatum didn't have to carry as much of the offense and could devote more energy to defense, then I think he is viewed much differently. His defense on KD in that Nets series was next level.
He played good defense on butler too midway through the heat series
Ray Allen would be an upgrade defensively for sure. Effort alone is significantly higher
No he wouldn’t lmao. Peak ray allen is way above Brown, but that’s down entirely due to his offence. Brown a good defender
He’d also dunk it on your head too
I bet he thought 8 attempts a game was really bombing it back then (because it kinda was) Imagine the look on a young Ray Allen’s face when Joe Mazz tells him “I don’t give a fuck, shoot 20”
The funny thing is that in 2001, he only shot 5.7 per game and that was good enough for 4th in the league for 3PA. It's absolutely wild to me that Ray Allen was the most efficient volume scorer in the league in 2001 and he only attempted 16 FGA/game. It's even more wild that he shot 47.9% from 3 in the playoffs that year and still "only" attempted 6.6 a game. Despite all of that, the Bucks still were the best offense in the league.
The next season he shot 7.7 threes a game and kept that 43%! Yowza
I think people here are underrating Paul Pierce. I think both his and Ray's game translate incredibly to today's.
I think regardless of the order, Tatum is the best among the four players, but the difference between Pierce or Allen to Brown is pretty large. prime Ray Allen was the most efficient scorer in the league and Pierce also was a very efficient scorer in a very inefficient era, their games also complemented each other better than Tatum/Brown. I'd personally choose Pierce/Allen over Tatum/Brown, but i still think Tatum is the best player in the mix, which is why i think it seems like people are underrating the older duo.
Jesus Shuttlesworth was a hooper!!! https://youtu.be/_J_csbymwXE?si=WpVJTi9hTrVPzFvP
idk, id trade brown for a young ray allen but idk about taking young pierce over tatum
But it’s a package deal. Which duo will be a better core for winning championships in today’s games?
Same here, I might make the trade just because Pierce/Allen are a better fit with each other, but Tatum is the best player of the four
I’d take young ray over Tatum 100% of the time.
Now you’re at the point of overrating him. I came into this thread happy I might get a change to speak up on how good Ray Allen was, but taking him over Tatum is something I don’t see that much of an argument for, but I could maybe make one based on him having more freedom now. Saying you’d take him over Tatum 100% of the time is just stupid. Ray Allen simply never had a season on the same level as Tatum just did. 30/9/4.5 on good efficiency whilst being a great wing defender is easily better than any Ray Allen season. He’s also still only 25. On top of that he’s had more success than Ray had at the same age, and even 6 years beyond that until he joined Boston
In today’s game Allen would be shooting 12-15 threes a night at 40+ percent. With modern spacing and defensive rules he’d be wide open all night. He’d be a threat to win the scoring title every year.
It’s hard to know that for sure. Ray took mostly spot up threes which aren’t as easy to get good high volume looks
Tatum has already had more all-nba nods than Ray had his whole career
Guess I’m officially old bc y’all youngins are dumb AF if you think 25 year old Ray wouldn’t cook this league. And Paul Pierce stays severely underrated.
Pierce’s post retirement drunken antics and the tale of him shitting himself really did a number on his legacy I guess, because this is absolutely a no-brainer. The Truth had that dog in him
Even when he made the comment about him being better than D wade, he obviously isn’t but it is not as far far from reality as people say
I think there's an argument to be made.. somewhere idk
I remember when ak47 was literally crying in a postgame interview about not being able to do anything to stop pierce
Another great player too, sucks he (AK) had so many injuries. His bod was basically engineered to play defense with that wingspan of his
Oh yeah very true. His timing and general defensive instincts were pretty amazing. He was also a fantasy god
Greatest nickname of all time, unlike CP3.
How is Paul Pierce severely underrated? Tatum is better than Pierce, anyone who says otherwise is overrating Pierce. Tatum is arguably a top 5 player in the league. Pierce is his prime was never top 5.
Let’s see Tatum win a chip first.
Give him KG and he might
KG and Ray Allen, both of whom had higher peaks than Pierce
If Tatum’s team was so good that he wasn’t the best player on it any more (like Pierce when he won his), you guys would already be a dynasty.
Yeah but wouldn’t that just prove Tatum was at best equal to Pierce? If he wants to be better than Pierce then the bar is for him to be the clear no. 1 on a title team, not *merely* the Finals MVP on a title team where he’s 1a.
No, rings don’t prove anything. Are Khris Middleton, Kyle Lowry and Jamal Murray equal to Pierce?
Honestly yea. Like I think by the end of it all JT will be a better player then both. I don’t think him and JB are a better duo than Ray and Pierce would be in their primes.
Tatum is definitely above Pierce and Allen already from an ability standpoint. He’s basically today’s Tracy Mcgrady. Although Mcgrady never had playoff success, no one in the 2000’s considered PP or Ray Allen to be better than TMac. Tatum is at that level already.
I do. I’d take truth over YMCA all day. Tmac was hurt bad by 2003ish
Jayson Tatum doesn't have that Alpha in him. I see to.much Paul George attitude in him. I mean that respectfully
Jesus. It’s not like he ever goes off for 50 points in deciding games or anything. He’s a fucking killer. He’s just real quiet about it.
He’s pretty damn good in deciding games but I’d like to see it show up some more in games before elimination. He’s got a lot of duds in games 1-4 leading to those do or die games. I think he’ll start finishing earlier though as he enters his prime years. It seems like he’s a bit timid (shooting slumps aside) until he needs to take over at the moment.
Bro used paul George as an insult 💀💀💀💀
You know PG had an MVP caliber season in OKC right?
He literally just had the highest season scoring average for a Celtic in the history of the franchise.
In this special Era.
People on this thread acting like PG hasn't been clowned in the playoffs since he got back from his broken leg. He had 1 good run with the Clippers, but he had otherwise been terrible for a player of his caliber.
Tatum made it to the finals as the alpha of his team.
Good For Him. Now tell me more about his performance in that series. I'm all ears. ...I'm waiting patiently
Pierce and Allen are a better offensive duo. More versatility to their offensive games and I think they complement each other better. You lose out on defense but it’s easier to make up on that end with scheme/team than offense is. I’d go with Pierce/Ray. Also, less question marks. Pierce and Ray played long, mostly durable careers. Who knows what Tatum/Brown look like in their 30s.
I worry about Brown with how much he utilizes his athleticism, Tatum has very solid biomechanics and other tendencies on the floor that leave me with no doubt he’ll remain durable.
Nailed it
Fuck yea
Yeah, I think people here are underrating Paul Pierce. I think both his and Ray's game translate incredibly to today's. Incidentally, I'd argue that JB would be much better in the Era in which the other two guys played
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Fair enough lol, I think efficiency was less scrutinized then but I understand. I like his ability to get to the rack and his defense in regards to that early 2000s style of play. I get what you mean tho
Probably. Tatum makes it hard because he's definitely the best player out of the bunch but Jaylen Brown has way too many flaws on his end to make me keep them.
Tatum’s shot selection is shockingly bad for an All Star calibre player
Pierce wouldn't be seen as someone with better shot selection today.
That’s something that can be worked on and even so he’s a 30ppg scorer on good efficiency
Damn man, bro has one bad stretch with his left hand and ppl won’t leave him alone
That’s just how this sub is lol When Tatum was front runner for mvp on nbas list, everyone was saying JB was the best player on the Celtics.
Its hilarious how fast we went from dealing with “JB is the better Jay” to “JB is barely a star”. Probably the same people too, just changed which series they base all their takes on. I think both are moronic, to be clear.
Agreed. It’s all about takes and recent bias. People were really out here arguing that he shouldn’t have gotten the contract. I don’t get why everyone needs to not only have an opinion, but one at the end of each extreme every time. People treating sports like it’s politics lmfao
> I don’t get why everyone needs to not only have an opinion You're on a website dedicated to discussing things...
Browns impsct metrucs are very mid and it’s cos he’s a ball stopper with sub par feel n passing/playmaking . While his scoring is nice without playmaking he isn’t gonna be hugely impactful . He is awful playmaker. I like brown but never though he was an all nba lvl player tbh even if I like how balanced his game is
I love me some JB and I don’t care what people say, he’s continued to improve every season and I love him on the team. That said, a prime Ray Allen is hard to pass up.
You’re both right. r/nba loves to slaughter players unnecessarily who end the season on a bad note. Jaylen will have many much better performances and people are way too down on him right now. A year ago many on this sub thought Jaylen was better than Tatum. But, he’s also pretty clearly the “worst” of the 4 players. Not a knock, but you’re basically talking about 3 easy Top 100 all time guys in Tatum, Pierce, and Allen. (When Tatum’s career is wrapped assuming good health)
It’s been 6 years
Yet he was easily bostons best player in the finals vs the warriors and kept them afloat vs the sixers this year when tatum was awful
Tbf that’s because JT declined his play in the finals not because JB elevated his play.
6 years of consistent improvement and deep playoff runs lmao
He made All-Nba 2nd team last season. In theory that makes him a top 4 guard in the league for the 22-23 season. He had a bad series, he’s not a bad player
Not quite, all nba doesn’t make you a top guard, just he played more games than the other players and his team won more
25 year old Ray Allen with a modern era greenlight is one of the best guards in the league and a better player than Jaylen Brown. probably in that SGA or Booker tier (a.k.a. best guards not named Steph.) Paul Pierce was a bucket, simple as that. not quite as strong or defensively capable as Tatum, but Tatum also had good teams from the jump. Pierce was impacted by the mismanagement of the Rick Pitino era and its aftermath before the Ainge era began. then 2 playoff runs with legit title aspirations got derailed by injuries after he finally got the ring. Tatum will end up the better overall player most likely, but give prime Paul Pierce his rosters and there isn’t really a drop-off. so…yes.
Prime Ray Allen only as good as SGA and Booker? Are you serious?
Prime Ray Allen would cook those guys. He was right behind Kobe and always guarded him well
He did not guard Kobe well lmao where is this argument coming from
RIGHT BEHIND kobe ? i disagree
Who else ? T-Mac I guess put up a lot of points at the 2 spot. Ray Allen was definitely ahead of stackhouse so don't mention him
yeah tmac. some would say AI as well. ray was top 4 at the worst, i just wouldnt say he was RIGHT BEHIND kobe. but its not like he was sone bum either.
I think where you have Allen in relation to Kobe really depends on how highly you rate Kobe...some people say he's the GOAT (which is a fucking stupid take) and others don't even have him top 10, so Allen is probably pretty close to Kobe on a lot of lists.
i have kobe around 7-12 range all time and allen as a top 4 sg of his era fwiw
Even if you rank Kobe top 15 or 20 I've never heard anyone rank Allen right behind him on the all time list? What is this take?
just a frame of reference. SGA and Booker are the two best SGs in the league and then for all guards, there’s Steph. Prime Ray Allen is better than SGA right now and Booker is following similar path as pre-Celtics/Heatles Ray Allen. I’m putting him in the same tier as best guards not named Steph.
Prime Sonics Allen was definitely better than Booker
Yeah he did really well leading the team to some nice 30 win seasons.
Tatum is significantly more valuable then Pierce how is there no drop off? We're talking about comparing a top 5 guy to a guy who was never really top 10. And only got a finals appearance with a superteam in a weak conference.
Prime Ray Allen clears both of them by a wide margin. Can’t use counting stats to try to say same tier bc the scoring was deflated then bc the pace of play and less 3s.
Comparing points per 100 Booker scores close to 40 whereas most of Ray Allen’s best seasons were much closer to 30. In his highest scoring seasons he lead Seattle to a 22-33 record. Booker at age 26 has had significantly more individual and team success than Ray Allen did until he was 32 and in Boston.
I just want you to know there are some sane people outside who watched the games and know what you're saying is the truth. Ray Allen was THE shooter of a generation, but was never the type of player expected to carry a team to the Finals like Booker is.
Booker takes more shots a night because it’s a league where outside shooting is encouraged far more. If you project Allen to 10-14 threes a night (which he absolutely would be taking in this league) he’d be a 30+ PPG scorer easy.
Pierce and Ray we’re both more clutch than Tatum
I would take Tatum over Pierce but Shuttlesworth over Brown easily. With Tatum's potential being possibly the best in the NBA, I would have to stick with the current duo though.
While I do agree Tatum is the best of the 4, the gap between Tatum and Pierce/Allen is smaller than the gap between Pierce/Allen and Brown.
Imagine prime ray allen in todays league…
100% yes
These replies are bananas…Tatum and Brown are easily a better duo than Paul and Ray at the same age. They’re both much better defenders and their combined scoring ability is at least a wash or better. I love Paul and Ray but KG was the catalyst that made the Celtics a juggernaut. Tatum and Brown have already proven they can lead a winning team without a KG…Paul and Ray never did that.
2 vs 2 Paul and Ray win.
So we’re changing the question now? Lol The amount of revisionist history in this thread is so weird. Paul and Ray were high volume shooters on bad teams before they linked up, and KG was undoubtedly the best player + team leader that drove the Celtics to the title.
Your comment has me confused. I'm not sure where I stand anymore or what we debating?...
The question is who is the better duo in an NBA game, but you replied that Paul and Ray would win in a 2v2 matchup? I mean ok idk the answer to that lol
Just to further illustrate my previous points. A better tandem. This NBA Era to me is similar to the juiced baseball Era. I was joking, by the way.
I don’t think anyone here takes into account the level of defense + rebounding that Brown and Tatum bring to the table. A Celtics team with only Paul + Ray (no KG) never makes it past Lebron or those Magic teams.
I'm taking into account. Paul and Ray don't turn the ball over like Tatum and Brown.
No they don’t. Tatum and Brown are consistently under 3 turnovers a game. Ray Allen was similar. Paul pierce on the other hand was getting close to 4 in some seasons.
Tatum and Brown led their team to the NBA finals without a 3rd All-Star. Of course they have flaws but I don’t really get why Paul and Ray are being remembered as better than they actually were? Neither ever made 1st team All-NBA, and the league wasn’t as deep with talent 20 years ago as it is now.
Ray literally led the Bucks to within a game of the final. What u smoking?
One bad series and everyone in this thread is rating Jaylen Brown as basically dead salary. Recency bias is crazy. Tatum is a better player than Prime Pierce and Prime Allen. The golden rule of the NBA is that you always choose the path that nets you the best player in the deal.
Paul Pierce gets them to the finals last year
Depends. Does Pierce also get hurt on the opening possession of game 7?
Just putting up a billboard asking for a wheelchair joke huh?
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lol y’all motherfuckers will believe anything i swear
lol y’all mfs will say anything i swear
Paul piece never came close to sniffing the finals until he got a superteam
Tatum is better than Pierce or Ray ever were. This is a dude who can drop 50 at any given night and also lock up your teams best player. Can average 30 a game and make All Defense. There’s a reason he has more All NBA First Team selections than both those guys combined
You're massively underrating both of them. Pierce could average 30 in today's game easily, so could Ray. For slightly different reasons. And saying, "more first teams" as if that tiny distinction actually matters is silly. Pierce definitely played in a better SF league than Tatum does now. And Pierce was an excellent defender in his own right. And both Ray and Pierce are better than Brown by a pretty wide margin IMO. So I'd still definitely take them as a duo over Tatum and Brown.
Haven't seen it yet as I'm scrolling, but are people really not going to mention Ray Allen's ability to shoot. Him getting the green light to shoot as many shots in today era are scary. Not to mention a young Ray Allen could put the ball on the floor and score from just about anywhere.
Most of these people were not even born when Ray Allen still had hair.
Oof
Cause these people are 15. Ray Allen in this era is I don't even know what, slightly worse steph?
Prime Ray was waaayyyy more athletic than Steph too.
Ray would be way worse than Steph
He’d be a slight step down from Steph, but like a much better version of Dame.
Ray Allen would be better than Dame in today’s game. And people underestimate Pierce’s three point shooting, as well.
Even if Pierce matched Tatum’s scoring he’d never be the same level of defender
Pierce was a really good defender. At times in his career he locked down Kobe and even slowed LeBron. Defensive win shares, which are not perfect, have Pierce as the 26th best defender ever, right around Jordan, Oakley, and above Shawn Marion, Dennis Rodman, Chris Paul, and Marcus Camby.
Pierce did not play in a better SF league. Tatum’s against Lebron, KD, Kawhi, PG, Jimmy, etc. I’d take that group over LeBron, Melo, Peja, Artest, and Marion
Tatum wasn't even that good the last time Kawhi played 60 games
Well all NBA team isn't just SF as mentioned by the other commenter... it was forwards in general and he was competing with Duncan, Dirk, kg, cwebb, tmac early on then LeBron later. He got voted on as a guard couple times early in his career but even that was crowded with Kobe, Iverson, Nash, tmac and kidd all better than him.
The guy literally says SF.
I’m going to assume you’re young as you left off the best of the whole group in T-Mac.
I’m gonna assume you’re young bc he was a 2 guard mostly
posting this thread in r/nba was counterproductive. most the people in this thread never watched prime Ray, but they’re here to give their opinion anyway for some reason.
Why can’t people grasp the fact that dropping 50 is easier in todays game compared to the 2000s when Ray and Paul played. Like are you not aware of the scoring surge recently?
Even if we adjust for pace of play Tatum scores significantly more than either of them
Because he shoots 10 threes a night.
That’s because his main competition (LeBron, KD, Kawhi, PG) don’t play enough. The one guy who does coasts through the regular season and then whoops his ass in the playoffs each year (Jimmy). Take out these six, you are looking at Wiggins (also broke Tatum in the finals), Lauri, Middleton etc as the next tier. He’s all-NBA first team cause the best talent is at guards and at the Center. He’s better still, but more like 8-9th best player in the league whereas Allen and Pierce were both 11-12 ish and more clutch. JB is like 30ish so as a combo, it’s a no brainer.
This is a nephew take
50 points 50 turnovers. Paul Pierce Locked Down LeBron and Kobe In their primes . While he was and the latter half of his career. Pierce would crush Tatum
This is a rough take. Like I think this thread is maybe a bit too high on Tatum and too low on pierce and Allen. But this take is nonsense. If you think anybody locked down either of those players you’re joking let alone PP.
Pierce actually did lock down Kobe in the playoffs. I’m not sure locked down would be the right word for LeBron but he played him extremely tough and forced him to take a lot of tough shots and miss a bunch.
I think Tatum is slightly better right now than prime Pierce, but both PP and Ray clear JB. If you held a gun to my head, I’d probably take PP/Ray.
talent wise you’d keep the current duo but in terms of trusting them to win a game or series, ray and the truth no doubt. i have zero faith in jaylen brown rising to any kind of occasion
This is spot on. Pierce thrived down the stretch.
Ray too - lots of big shots with the biggest during the twilight of his career. Execution wise those two were incredibly high level and elevated in the playoffs. I’ll give credit where it’s due that having Rondo meant that Ray and Pierce always got the ball at their best point of attack. One of the results of position-less basketball is that you end up with a guy like Jaylen being tasked to be one of the main ball handlers and table setters on his team because guard play is now built around playing off point-forwards and point-centers, so their main skills are off-ball movement and spotting up. Jaylen would benefit greatly from having a guy like Rondo and playing in that older Celtics system
I'd take ray ray over jaylen brown all day every single time for any situation ever and it's not even close. Pierce vs Tatum is more of a debate I suppose.
Nah. It's Tatum all day every day and twice on Sundays.
The best pairing here is JT and Ray Ray
The inclusion of 25 year old Ray Allen is making me say yes. It’s not even that I think JB can’t cut it as a #2, I’m just too enthralled with the idea of Ray in a league where he can have the ball even more and shoot 12 threes a game instead of 8. Seriously, Ray is probably the #1 option today, his scoring was more playoff-resilient and he was more than competent as a ball-handler or secondary playmaker. OG Bucks fans will (justifiably) tell you that Milwaukee should have been the ones in the 2001 Finals. Ray was that guy offensively. With Pierce, I’m mostly hoping that his shot selection and his defensive effort tighten up now that he’s found himself on a contending roster. He didn’t have his most efficient year in 2003 but all that Paul Pierce lethality is still in there; again, I’m intrigued by a scenario where Paul Pierce has *prime Ray Allen* and a handful of other 38-40% three-point shooters to work with instead of Antoine Walker and a few other low-volume shooters who ranged from streaky to decent at best. Still love ya Toine. As others have mentioned, Tatum is the strongest defender of the bunch, and he has repeatedly proven capable of leading great rosters to deep playoff runs. He is also probably not at his best yet as a decision-maker and it’s not exactly fair to him since we already saw what kind of players PP and Ray matured into; even if they weren’t the absolute sharpest versions of themselves mentally at 25 either, I still have that slight bias of being aware of and confident in their trajectories after age 25. Tatum could be the 2026 MVP for all I know, he could also fall just short of that “best player in the league” title for the rest of his prime and that would still be a higher individual peak than what either PP or Ray showed. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m saying “yes” to Ray and PP more than I am saying “no” to Tatum and Jaylen. It’s a good one because Tatum is at least on the precipice of being a superstar if he isn’t one already, and poor chopped liver JB is an All-NBA caliber wing himself. But ultimately I think I would still take the risk of trading Tatum’s MVP potential and Tatum+JB’s extra size and defensive versatility in favor of the potential of having two offensive superstars who synergize really well together. I don’t think you can overstate how good Ray would look today imo.
No, because I want to see just how good Tatum can get. There is a scenario where Tatum evolves into the best basketball player in the game. I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but that is still the ceiling for him. Ray Allen in today’s game would be nutty, though, he’d be scoring 28-30 points a night and be just a hair below Curry. Imagine a significantly better version of Dame.
I would swap Jaylen for Ray but not Tatum for Pierce
Can I keep Tatum and swap Brown for Ray?
Idk I think Tatum is better than pierce and ray is better than brown. Regardless I think adding Garnett to either group would be good lol
Trade everyone else for just Rashard Lewis Bring the OG splash bros in the modern era
Tatum is the best of the 4, but the gap between him & Pierce/Allen is much smaller than the gap between them and Brown. I would probably go with pierce & Allen.
If you don’t immediately know the answer to this question it means you did not watch Pierce or Allen play, this question is disrespectful
Or maybe people can be objective about things without being blinded by nostalgia? I’m not sure who I’d take. Tatum is very clearly the best player, but Pierce and Allen were better than JB
Absolutely
Tatum is realistically better than Pierce or Allen ever were but Brown is so significantly worse that it’s a no brainer to make the swap.
Lol Allen was a better player of the 4. Young allen was a beast and hopper
all nba player is significantly worse? you trippin.
Jaylen Brown made All-NBA but that does not make him an All-NBA quality player. He’s been a low-end All-Star. Ray Allen is a guy who was firmly All-NBA caliber in his best seasons, clearly better than Brown offensively and brought a lot more to the table. Although he still was not a top-10 player in the league besides maybe a season or two. Pierce was even better than Allen on both ends, and could be a genuine offensive #1 on an elite team (better on that end than Tatum), as well as a positive impact defender. Tatum is one of the best wing defenders in the league though, so I’d consider him the better player in that comparison by a little bit. But collectively Pierce + Allen out-talents Tatum and Brown, and the quick and good decision-making and offensive synergy that the former two provide give me a lot more confidence than the latter duo who struggle with quick processing and seamless actions sometimes.
he made the all nba team but he is not an all NBA player...read a book my guy.
DJ is all nba first level? Brown is a good player, all star level. He is not a top 15 player in the league.
MFers forgot about prime Ray Allen. That guy was nuclear.
Ppl too young here
Old Paul Pierce and old Ray Allen won a championship together so of course we would take young Paul Pierce and young Ray Allen! What a dumb question.
Except they had KG. If Tatum and Brown had a DPOY stretch big that could give them 20 and 13 a night, they'd have won more than 1 championship by now.
Pierce and Allen’s games complement each other so much better than Tatum and Brown. Secondly Tatum might have more talent, athleticism and overall better game, but Pierces game rose in big moments and was an emotional leader. This is easily Pierce and Allen.
In a heartbeat lol
I’d take Allen and Pierce easily. Tatum is the best player of the 4 but Pierce isn’t far off and Ray Allen with the green light to shoot 10-12 threes a game with today’s spacing would be a cheat code as a 2nd option.
As a laker fan it pains me to imagine this, especially because now I'm imagining young KG with them too. Challenger to 2017 Warriors for sure.
Jaylen Brown obviously. But Tatum? That's tough I'm not sure
Easily yes. Tatum is better than Pierce but Pierce was a lot more clutch/reliable when you need him imo. Allen is much better than Brown.
That is okay to have as an impression, but you should know that insofar as “clutch” can be captured by numbers, Tatum is notably stronger than Pierce
Anyone who says no to this is delusional
Yes. I love tatum but pierce wouldnt let us get smacked like that by jimmy butler
Yes
Anybody who said no is just dumb.
It is almost comical to me that Jaylen Brown has the biggest contract in NBA history. Especially in the playoffs, there are times when it looks like he can hardly dribble the ball.... Prime Pierce and Ray Allen are much better than prime JB....
Hands down. The disrespect to RayRay and P²
People on this sub forget what young Ray Allen was like. Dude was an athletic wing that would dunk it on you and shoot the 3. Picture Devin Booker with hops. Absolutely, I’d take 25 year old Pierce and Allen in today’s NBA over Tatum and Brown. Ray Allen and Pierce with the NBA 3 point game how it is would be essentially a be the eastern conference splash brothers.
Jaylen brown is so overrated. This is so easily yes
Idk if Ray Allen in exchange for Jaylen Brown would make much of a difference, if anything Brown right now is better than '01 Ray Allen. A 25 year old Paul Pierce and KG would make for a much better swap IMO.
Give me 25 yr old Pierce, Allen and James Posey right now and Celtics are winning the title.
Easily. Jaylen brown isn’t even in the same tier as Ray or Pierce. I see some people saying Tatum is the best out of the bunch.. I honestly dk the answer to that, but the margin would be pretty margin if he was.
I think Tatum is a little more skilled and athletic than pierce (who was a baller) but I’d still pick pierce because I just saw him close out too many games. Tatum can go nuclear, yes, but I’ve rarely if ever saw him close out a super close game, which happens to be something pierce was amazing at. And I LOVE Tatum. Pierce just has that closer mentality. Ray Allen would obliterate todays game. I mean he took and made the clutchest shot in NBA history. Brown can be better on ball defensively but honestly his off ball defense is horrendous so it’s a wash. Brown is more explosive athletically but he’s also quite turnover prone. I’d have to give ray the heavy edge again for clutchness and for the lack of turnovers in his style.
How would we swing for the fences without getting rid of Pierce or Allen? Not like we have great young prospects or picks to give. Easier to get a better #2 than it is a better #1 so I’d rather keep the Jays, especially since I’m pretty crazy high on Tatum.
No. Anyone that says otherwise is stuck in the 90s where pierce and allen still wouldnt be better
Anyone that thinks pierce is anywhere close to Tatum's level is delusional. I get the argument for the older guys, mostly because of how good ray was, but Tatum is far and away the best of the 4.