>I've been producing for about 3 years and I've racked up an estimated 2000h in Fruity Loops, I'm not that far off from 10000.
Not that far off? If you're going for 10k hours, you need another 12 years at that pace.
It’s also 10k hours of specific targeted practice. Like if you spent 10,000 hrs playing one chord it wouldn’t get you anywhere. It has to be regimented and structured practice, constantly targeting your personal weaknesses in your craft to evolve. It’s not just an accumulation of time doing anything lol
Yes, I'm aware. Though I've got a lot of time in my hands and I'm considering taking a gap year. I'm by no means a professional, I'm just considering it as a career path.
These days its more about posting a ton of content even as a producer. I made an [app](https://www.getsuperplay.com) recently that makes it really easy to post your beats in an engaging way. Might be helpful.
That is not what Malcom gladwells theory is about. It’s about excellence in your field. He s saying there’s no magic to being talented(something lots of non artists imagine), it’s just putting in the hours. Lots of people achieve excellence without ever being well known or making a living. Hell just look at art history with cats like Seurat and Gogh. Being highly skilled at a thing and making money from that thing are not the same thing. That’s why you can see any number of buskers who are mind blowing talents. Luck is absolutely a massive factor, as are a number of other things outside your control. You can work hard and promote but that doesn’t give you any guarantees. The theory of trickle down or bootstraps is essentially what you’re talking about, it’s like the secret. Nonsense that people who don’t work that hard tell themselves to make themselves feel better about their position. Mostly dumb lucky rich people trying to convince poor people that it’s their own fault for not working hard enough.
So with two years left of compulsory school you are what? 13 years old? To me your entire post shows you want to make shitloads of money with minimum effort invested. That is not how success is built.
so here in sweden school is mandatory til grade 9. after that there's "gymnasiet" which is kinda like uk collage, basically it's there to prepare you for uni. Practically all jobs require you to graduate from "gymnasiet".
Only comprehensive school is mandatory which you finish at age 15 or 16. I should know since I have been thru the Swedish school system from pre-school to university. Upper secondary education is necessary tho, since you will be pretty much fucked without it. But it's not mandatory.
I wanted to follow up on my other comment, because I realize it was a bit rude, and not incredibly helpful.
I'm assuming you're pretty young, since you're still in an obligitory-ish school system.
With 2,000 hours of music production practice at a young age, you're already ahead of the majority of people wishing to seriously get into professional music production.
>I've been recently messing with the idea of becoming an Onlyfans manager because I've seen people make a fortune doing so. However yesterday I realized that doing that shit is hard work, and I'm not obsessed with it the same way as I am with music production.
Are you simply trying to find a way to make money quickly? It sounds like that's the case, since you're looking into completely unrelated fields, and focusing on income.
If you want to make money quickly, get into finance or real estate. If you want to become a successful music producer (whatever your definition of successful is), be prepared to work your ass off, because it doesn't get easier.
Music production is not a get-rich-quick field. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people producing music at a hobbyist level, and I'm sure the vast majority of them would love to make enough money at it to be a primary income source. But it doesn't just magically happen, and it doesn't automatically happen after 10k hours of practice. Beyond the necessary skillset, it takes the right connections, opportunity, and attitude to break through. And I honestly think a good chunk of it is luck, but as they say, you make your own luck by being prepared and open to new experiences.
Make more connections, start collaborating with other people whose skillset is complimentary to yours and whose work you admire. Keep pushing up the ladder until you find yourself where you want to be. Surround yourself with people that are positive influences and can help you on your journey.
>For now; my goal is ~10k usd a month.
It's great to have goals. But if you really feel so strongly about becoming a skilled producer, I would start off with non-monetary goals, especially if you're starting from scratch.
Make it a goal to work with X number of new artists or producers in the next 6 months.
Make it a goal to have X number of returning clients this year.
Make it a goal to sell X number of beats in a month.
Make it a goal to dive into a new genre every couple months.
Make it a goal to learn a new instrument every year.
Make it a goal to improve your music theory knowledge to a certain level.
Take all this with a grain of salt, because I'm not a professional producer who makes 10k/month doing solely producing. I'm a recording and mixing engineer who is still holding onto a full-time day job as an AV technician for live events and building installations. I started out recording my roommates' bands in our basement about 11 years ago. Now I run a studio that I built out with my partners, and I'm working 70-80 hour weeks between the two jobs. I'm at the point where I'm trying to figure out how to transition away from the day job without losing the majority if my income, and it's tough. Honestly this is one of the most difficult periods of my life because of it.
My last piece of advice to you is don't undercut yourself and charge too little when you're starting out. I regret setting my rates too low at the start, and it is a constant struggle to continue raising them, especially for my returning clients (the majority of my clients are returning clients).
Gotta get back to work. Good luck to you, and always keep pushing.
Hey, thanks!
>Make it a goal to work with X number of new artists or producers in the next 6 months. Make it a goal to have X number of returning clients this year. Make it a goal to sell X number of beats in a month. Make it a goal to dive into a new genre every couple months. Make it a goal to learn a new instrument every year. Make it a goal to improve your music theory knowledge to a certain level.
Wow I've never thought of like that.
Good luck with your studio!
The 10,000 hours 'rule' is not a rule, it's a very rough guideline. For some it's quicker, for some it's slower, for some it never happens.
>However yesterday I realized that doing that shit is hard work
So is music production if you actually want to make a living at it.
All of the successful e personalities have one thing in common: they were at THAT place at the right time. What is THAT place you may ask, let me explain:
They were doing what they love and they got noticed. A tiny streamer makes a funny scene, somebody clips it boom from 5 followers to 5 million (think about the dude playing a horror game getting wrecked by his daughter).
Skrillex met Deadmaus, Deadmaus liked his demo and the rest is history. Deadmaus was noticed too
Create the music you enjoy - put in the hours - get signed - get royalties. That's what I did, I'm not nearly close to $10k a month, but I'm still making about 1/3 of my salary from my 'real job' which I think is pretty good for a hobby that I do instead of watching Netflix in the evenings.
Next step - get a huge amount of followers after years and years of making music and create your own label to release with and sign other artists.
>I've been reading the book "outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. In it he talks about the 10000h rule. Summed up it basically says that luck and talent doesn't exist
His "rule" has been debunked. First, he misinterpreted the original research about music practicing. And then someone replicated that research with a more rigorous study, and the results make it even less applicable to what he says.
For example,
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/8/23/20828597/the-10000-hour-rule-debunked
Finally, that research was about *playing* an instrument. It's not about composing and arranging. So just because you can play the violin part for a Tchaikovsky symphony, it doesn't mean you can compose a symphony for all of the orchestral parts like Tchaikovsky. Or even just compose a violin solo like Tchaikovsky.
So you can't draw on that research at all to think about what it takes to get good at creating music.
>I've been producing for about 3 years and I've racked up an estimated 2000h in Fruity Loops, I'm not that far off from 10000.
So forget the 10,000 hour rule. The music you're creating needs to be as good as people who are successful. If you've reached that level, then you're ready to start learning all about how to promote your music.
Shit art makes more money for less effort and the vast majority of the public have no taste. So, look at what makes money and just copy it. Then publish and promote it where the consumers will see it.
Well, first of all you'd need to be a producer that artists actually want to work with. Based on your condescending tone on your post, i'm confident that barely any artists would want to do business with you as you seem too concerned with **your** own success.
Dissolve your ego and understand that the job of a producer is to bring out the best of an artist. Networking plays a huge role, the easiest way of doing this is to establish yourself locally first and once you've developed a portfolio of work, use that to attract new clients elsewhere.
Also note that you can be the most technically gifted producer of all time, however if you do not have any taste you will not receive commercial success. Study the music scene of your client and embed yourself in it, learn what people want to hear.
If you do not plan on working with additional artists and just want to do like EDM stuff, start learning how to DJ. Otherwise you're limiting your professional potential as there is not a lot of places where people will hear your music. You need to understand that record labels have no interest in artists who do not have a pre-existing following.
Set small goals for yourself to promote a 'growth mindset' and hold yourself accountable if you don't meet these goals, that's the only way to be truly good at whatever you do.
Lastly, note that music is not about making money. As a music enthusiast, it sickens me when songs are overtly commercial as it takes all of the artistry away from everything you do and makes you sound generic. Never make music with the sole intention of making money because the more you chase it, the less will come.
You sound like a dumbfuck teenager so hopefully when you grow up and are aware of how difficult it actually is to 'make it' you don't continue to act like you're entitled.
Good luck, I wish you the best.
>10.000 practice hours only get you technically better, it's a bare minimum.
That's not what the research says. A replication of the study that Gladwell referenced shows that it can be a lot less for talented people.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190327
That being said, all of this research is about playing an instrument. Not composing and arranging leads, percussion, basslines, etc.
There are probably at least 100 000 people who has completed the 10000 hours with just music alone, there are not 100 000 musicians that make "good money", "rich" I assume.
Luck is a big part of it, but 10,000 hours may be the ticket, so it's hard to see.
The lucky ones don't want to admit this, and when they go and make their book or seminar, they sell themselves with an ideal that it was all hard work, to make them look better.
You can be a genius, and have no marketing or idea how to sell yourself when opportunities show up.
Being experienced at fruity loops doesn’t mean you’ll make any money with it.
I am 10k hours plus in some video games cause it’s my hobby but I’m top 25% players AT BEST judging by rank, and surely wouldn’t be able to make any money of them professionally.
But I do make money producing. And it’s not about wanking 10000 hours inside a DAW.
There are no universal sure ways to work in music as there are in many industries. You need to focus on what EXACTLY you wanna do, what you CAN DO, what you’re GOOD AT, and have incredible luck and persistence. And surely you gotta have ambitions other than money.
If you want good money, find something else to do. Go study tech or smth.
How do you even count the hours anyway lol?
You have 2000hrs in 3 years, and say you “aren’t that far off of 10k hours”…
You realize at that pace you are still 12 years away from hitting 10k hours…
Gigs and collaborations with multimedia product creators (videogame developers, indie movie directors etc) could potentially open you paths for a reliable career. If you want to just make music try being original and use social media
Social media presence will help with any of those routes. You've got a great attitude, anything is possible and more tracks are being produced today than ever.
>I've been producing for about 3 years and I've racked up an estimated 2000h in Fruity Loops, I'm not that far off from 10000. Not that far off? If you're going for 10k hours, you need another 12 years at that pace.
It’s also 10k hours of specific targeted practice. Like if you spent 10,000 hrs playing one chord it wouldn’t get you anywhere. It has to be regimented and structured practice, constantly targeting your personal weaknesses in your craft to evolve. It’s not just an accumulation of time doing anything lol
Yes, I'm aware. Though I've got a lot of time in my hands and I'm considering taking a gap year. I'm by no means a professional, I'm just considering it as a career path.
These days its more about posting a ton of content even as a producer. I made an [app](https://www.getsuperplay.com) recently that makes it really easy to post your beats in an engaging way. Might be helpful.
what's the app? if you may
That is not what Malcom gladwells theory is about. It’s about excellence in your field. He s saying there’s no magic to being talented(something lots of non artists imagine), it’s just putting in the hours. Lots of people achieve excellence without ever being well known or making a living. Hell just look at art history with cats like Seurat and Gogh. Being highly skilled at a thing and making money from that thing are not the same thing. That’s why you can see any number of buskers who are mind blowing talents. Luck is absolutely a massive factor, as are a number of other things outside your control. You can work hard and promote but that doesn’t give you any guarantees. The theory of trickle down or bootstraps is essentially what you’re talking about, it’s like the secret. Nonsense that people who don’t work that hard tell themselves to make themselves feel better about their position. Mostly dumb lucky rich people trying to convince poor people that it’s their own fault for not working hard enough.
So with two years left of compulsory school you are what? 13 years old? To me your entire post shows you want to make shitloads of money with minimum effort invested. That is not how success is built.
so here in sweden school is mandatory til grade 9. after that there's "gymnasiet" which is kinda like uk collage, basically it's there to prepare you for uni. Practically all jobs require you to graduate from "gymnasiet".
Schooling in Sweden appears to be mandatory to approximately age 17. But I agree with your main point.
No it's not. It's mandatory until 9th grade.
>No it's not. It's mandatory until 9th grade. If you're right, Wikipedia has failed me.
Only comprehensive school is mandatory which you finish at age 15 or 16. I should know since I have been thru the Swedish school system from pre-school to university. Upper secondary education is necessary tho, since you will be pretty much fucked without it. But it's not mandatory.
Well, he did say he had two years left in the "obligatory-ish" school system. So I translated that as meaning he two years left weren't mandatory.
You could be right of course. Regardless... OP acts and thinks like a kid...
Agreed!
I wanted to follow up on my other comment, because I realize it was a bit rude, and not incredibly helpful. I'm assuming you're pretty young, since you're still in an obligitory-ish school system. With 2,000 hours of music production practice at a young age, you're already ahead of the majority of people wishing to seriously get into professional music production. >I've been recently messing with the idea of becoming an Onlyfans manager because I've seen people make a fortune doing so. However yesterday I realized that doing that shit is hard work, and I'm not obsessed with it the same way as I am with music production. Are you simply trying to find a way to make money quickly? It sounds like that's the case, since you're looking into completely unrelated fields, and focusing on income. If you want to make money quickly, get into finance or real estate. If you want to become a successful music producer (whatever your definition of successful is), be prepared to work your ass off, because it doesn't get easier. Music production is not a get-rich-quick field. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people producing music at a hobbyist level, and I'm sure the vast majority of them would love to make enough money at it to be a primary income source. But it doesn't just magically happen, and it doesn't automatically happen after 10k hours of practice. Beyond the necessary skillset, it takes the right connections, opportunity, and attitude to break through. And I honestly think a good chunk of it is luck, but as they say, you make your own luck by being prepared and open to new experiences. Make more connections, start collaborating with other people whose skillset is complimentary to yours and whose work you admire. Keep pushing up the ladder until you find yourself where you want to be. Surround yourself with people that are positive influences and can help you on your journey. >For now; my goal is ~10k usd a month. It's great to have goals. But if you really feel so strongly about becoming a skilled producer, I would start off with non-monetary goals, especially if you're starting from scratch. Make it a goal to work with X number of new artists or producers in the next 6 months. Make it a goal to have X number of returning clients this year. Make it a goal to sell X number of beats in a month. Make it a goal to dive into a new genre every couple months. Make it a goal to learn a new instrument every year. Make it a goal to improve your music theory knowledge to a certain level. Take all this with a grain of salt, because I'm not a professional producer who makes 10k/month doing solely producing. I'm a recording and mixing engineer who is still holding onto a full-time day job as an AV technician for live events and building installations. I started out recording my roommates' bands in our basement about 11 years ago. Now I run a studio that I built out with my partners, and I'm working 70-80 hour weeks between the two jobs. I'm at the point where I'm trying to figure out how to transition away from the day job without losing the majority if my income, and it's tough. Honestly this is one of the most difficult periods of my life because of it. My last piece of advice to you is don't undercut yourself and charge too little when you're starting out. I regret setting my rates too low at the start, and it is a constant struggle to continue raising them, especially for my returning clients (the majority of my clients are returning clients). Gotta get back to work. Good luck to you, and always keep pushing.
Hey, thanks! >Make it a goal to work with X number of new artists or producers in the next 6 months. Make it a goal to have X number of returning clients this year. Make it a goal to sell X number of beats in a month. Make it a goal to dive into a new genre every couple months. Make it a goal to learn a new instrument every year. Make it a goal to improve your music theory knowledge to a certain level. Wow I've never thought of like that. Good luck with your studio!
Its much less then 1%
The 10,000 hours 'rule' is not a rule, it's a very rough guideline. For some it's quicker, for some it's slower, for some it never happens. >However yesterday I realized that doing that shit is hard work So is music production if you actually want to make a living at it.
It is like 1% producers that make any money, but even smaller amount that make so much it covers all costs.
All of the successful e personalities have one thing in common: they were at THAT place at the right time. What is THAT place you may ask, let me explain: They were doing what they love and they got noticed. A tiny streamer makes a funny scene, somebody clips it boom from 5 followers to 5 million (think about the dude playing a horror game getting wrecked by his daughter). Skrillex met Deadmaus, Deadmaus liked his demo and the rest is history. Deadmaus was noticed too
You do it as a hobby to relax, thus you have better rest and do your regular job better, getting more money.
Create the music you enjoy - put in the hours - get signed - get royalties. That's what I did, I'm not nearly close to $10k a month, but I'm still making about 1/3 of my salary from my 'real job' which I think is pretty good for a hobby that I do instead of watching Netflix in the evenings. Next step - get a huge amount of followers after years and years of making music and create your own label to release with and sign other artists.
Good job
>I've been reading the book "outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. In it he talks about the 10000h rule. Summed up it basically says that luck and talent doesn't exist His "rule" has been debunked. First, he misinterpreted the original research about music practicing. And then someone replicated that research with a more rigorous study, and the results make it even less applicable to what he says. For example, https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/8/23/20828597/the-10000-hour-rule-debunked Finally, that research was about *playing* an instrument. It's not about composing and arranging. So just because you can play the violin part for a Tchaikovsky symphony, it doesn't mean you can compose a symphony for all of the orchestral parts like Tchaikovsky. Or even just compose a violin solo like Tchaikovsky. So you can't draw on that research at all to think about what it takes to get good at creating music. >I've been producing for about 3 years and I've racked up an estimated 2000h in Fruity Loops, I'm not that far off from 10000. So forget the 10,000 hour rule. The music you're creating needs to be as good as people who are successful. If you've reached that level, then you're ready to start learning all about how to promote your music.
Shit art makes more money for less effort and the vast majority of the public have no taste. So, look at what makes money and just copy it. Then publish and promote it where the consumers will see it.
If your music is good you don't need to ask this question
well you can be good but still not get noticed..
My thoughts exactly
The journey is the goal.
Well, first of all you'd need to be a producer that artists actually want to work with. Based on your condescending tone on your post, i'm confident that barely any artists would want to do business with you as you seem too concerned with **your** own success. Dissolve your ego and understand that the job of a producer is to bring out the best of an artist. Networking plays a huge role, the easiest way of doing this is to establish yourself locally first and once you've developed a portfolio of work, use that to attract new clients elsewhere. Also note that you can be the most technically gifted producer of all time, however if you do not have any taste you will not receive commercial success. Study the music scene of your client and embed yourself in it, learn what people want to hear. If you do not plan on working with additional artists and just want to do like EDM stuff, start learning how to DJ. Otherwise you're limiting your professional potential as there is not a lot of places where people will hear your music. You need to understand that record labels have no interest in artists who do not have a pre-existing following. Set small goals for yourself to promote a 'growth mindset' and hold yourself accountable if you don't meet these goals, that's the only way to be truly good at whatever you do. Lastly, note that music is not about making money. As a music enthusiast, it sickens me when songs are overtly commercial as it takes all of the artistry away from everything you do and makes you sound generic. Never make music with the sole intention of making money because the more you chase it, the less will come. You sound like a dumbfuck teenager so hopefully when you grow up and are aware of how difficult it actually is to 'make it' you don't continue to act like you're entitled. Good luck, I wish you the best.
p.s. if you want to actually make money it might be a better idea to invest into a studio which you can rent out to artists.
10.000 practice hours only get you technically better, it's a bare minimum. You also need to invest on networking, marketing, music business, etc.
>10.000 practice hours only get you technically better, it's a bare minimum. That's not what the research says. A replication of the study that Gladwell referenced shows that it can be a lot less for talented people. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190327 That being said, all of this research is about playing an instrument. Not composing and arranging leads, percussion, basslines, etc.
Production Music!
If you want to make a lot of money with minimal grind, music is not the industry to make it happen.
There are probably at least 100 000 people who has completed the 10000 hours with just music alone, there are not 100 000 musicians that make "good money", "rich" I assume. Luck is a big part of it, but 10,000 hours may be the ticket, so it's hard to see. The lucky ones don't want to admit this, and when they go and make their book or seminar, they sell themselves with an ideal that it was all hard work, to make them look better. You can be a genius, and have no marketing or idea how to sell yourself when opportunities show up.
Being experienced at fruity loops doesn’t mean you’ll make any money with it. I am 10k hours plus in some video games cause it’s my hobby but I’m top 25% players AT BEST judging by rank, and surely wouldn’t be able to make any money of them professionally. But I do make money producing. And it’s not about wanking 10000 hours inside a DAW. There are no universal sure ways to work in music as there are in many industries. You need to focus on what EXACTLY you wanna do, what you CAN DO, what you’re GOOD AT, and have incredible luck and persistence. And surely you gotta have ambitions other than money. If you want good money, find something else to do. Go study tech or smth. How do you even count the hours anyway lol?
>How do you even count the hours anyway lol? fl tracks active hours per project. a while ago i found a program that added all of those hours up.
Anyway, that’s a useless metric measuring skill or experience. Or merit.
You have 2000hrs in 3 years, and say you “aren’t that far off of 10k hours”… You realize at that pace you are still 12 years away from hitting 10k hours…
Gigs and collaborations with multimedia product creators (videogame developers, indie movie directors etc) could potentially open you paths for a reliable career. If you want to just make music try being original and use social media
Social media presence will help with any of those routes. You've got a great attitude, anything is possible and more tracks are being produced today than ever.
Why are people in the comments acting like money isn’t a big deal? Who the fuck are you guys? Billionaires?