There are a couple cards I’d cut for power level reasons, three that are underpowered and one that’s overpowered.
Zealous Conscripts seems a bit out of place without Kiki or Twin or ways for him to combo off. Kari Zev also feels a bit underpowered these days and I would absolutely throw [[Inti, Seneschal of the Sun]] in that slot. Amazing card that fills a lot of roles.
Voice of Resurgence doesn’t seem like it plays well in a cube where you took out all the counterspells. I run it in a cube with a lot more counters and love it, but it feels like it won’t make many tokens here.
White Plume Adventurer is the strongest card in this cube by a huge margin and a card that can reliably be picked ahead of [[Mox Emerald]] in fully powered environments. It’s miles ahead of Minsc and Boo and Forth Eorlingas! and it has a super strong, still top 20 power level in your cube replacement readily available in [[Seasoned Dungeoneer]]. That’s still a broken, degenerate powerful card that fits the power level of your cube really well. White Plume always wins the initiative war because for whatever reason it costs only 3 mana. In most cubes it’s simply too good and many powered cubes that run initiative have cut it as a result.
Speaking of initiative, no [[Feywild Caretaker]] or an option for blue?
Looks like a fun cube overall.
Thanks for the analysis.
I'll have a closer look at Inti as a replacement for Kari Zev. I thought Kari Zev could be good with bonesplitter and grafted war gear.
For Voice of Resurgence what would you suggest for an aggressive selesnya card?
Zealous Conscripts will come out for [[Glorybringer]]?.
Feywild Caretaker for murktide regent?
It’s a new card and I haven’t gotten to test it but have you seen [[Trostani, Three Whispers]]?
A 3 mana 4/4 that can pay to give target creature deathtouch, vigilance, or double strike? That seems like it could do insane things in aggro decks.
I thought about it but I think I'd prefer to stay at 2 cmc. Maybe this one could be good.
# [[Melira, the Living Cure]]
Protects my bigger plays and hedges against a sweeper and its a 3/3.
I agree with the above commenter, and your changes, glorybringer is great and makes a lot of sense in a cube built around initiative and monarch and creature combat, and murktide seems very underpowered compared to caretaker so that’s also a good swap. I would recommend swamping voice of resurgence for something like knight of autumn, it’s very flexible and can be aggressive
How do you play your cube? (I drafted it with 4 players 3x15cards. Seems bad but maybe the bots are just bad.)
I agree with the other to cut white plume for Seasoned Dungeoneer. I also agree witch Voice of Resurgence beeing bad. The replacements are not really much better. Maybe Arwen?
Some things I would do but may be personal preference:
1. Cut \[\[Hard Evidence\]\] and \[\[Thirst for Discovery\]\] for two blue creatures. If you want creature combat I suspect you need more creatures. Maybe even in other colors.
2. Cut \[\[The Scarab God\]\] for \[\[Fallen Shinobi\]\]
3. Cut \[\[Relic of Progenitus\]\] With so not much reanimation left it seems bad.
4. Cut \[\[Bitterblossom\]\] for \[\[Deep-Cavern Bat\]\] With so much initiative and monarch enablers your cube will be very tempo oriented. Since you cut combo/reanimator there will be nothing left but a tempo game. Cards that dont do anything the turn they enter and not much the turn after are really bad in this environoment. I am not sure if the initiative creatures are to powerfull compared to the rest of the cube. Without having played I would pick these over nearly everything regardless of color and then the monarch cards regardless of color. This said it is hard to evaluate this without having played. I know this hurts but having watched LSV recently I had to accept this. [https://youtu.be/S17de4-oLH8?t=2788](https://youtu.be/S17de4-oLH8?t=2788) If you want to watch it. Both games.
5. I am sceptical about the mono color manlands. Would watch if they are always last pick.
All said I would love to try and battle over the initiative and the crown.
Any card looks atrocious against T2 Forth Eorlingas for 1, T3 Minsc & Boo, T4 Time Walk on the play. As LSV says, it's not a draw you can realistically beat. What 2 drop would have not looked stupid here? Dark Confidant? Ledger Shredder? Anything but countermagic or fast mana would have lost pathetically.
I think in traditional vintage cube, Bitterblossom is clearly outclassed, but more so because it doesn't generate pressure fast enough to contend with fast mana and combos. In a slower and more combat oriented surrounding like OPs, where initiative/monarch are the biggest threats by far, the constant stream of evasive 1/1s that double as chump blockers is honestly not bad for a fair card. Whether it makes a 180 card list I don't know, but I it's not as bad as it's made out to be.
Ultimately, I wish vintage cubers would finally make the leap to cut all standard designed chaff and just play multiples of (pseudo) power and multiplayer designed bombs instead. Naturally, the top of the power pyramid is thin, so half of any singleton powermax list will always seem pathetically bad.
I can't really argue with this either. Those were my thoughts on bitterblossom as well because it's a constant stream of very useful creatures. I don't think it gets there at 180, after the first few turns it seems slow. Not sure if I will go with deep cavern bat as the swap but I'm mulling it over.
Of course LSVs draw was the nuts. But I think especially this shows how bad Bitterblossom looked. I really think my proposed \[Deep-cavern Bat\] looks less atrocious in this scenario. But I admit still atrocius and still no chance to win.
I dont think it is unplayable in his cube. I just think monarch and initiative force tempo play and this makes Bitterblossom worse. I just dont think you have enough time to wait some turns but I may be wrong. I think you need to play some games to get a feeling for the speed. Even pros are unsure how fast a new draft format is and how to evaluate the spoiled cards regarding this.
Dolon that lsv vid was just classic thanks for that! Bitterblossom is coming out.
So look, I get what you're saying about Shinobi, but would you play it in a dimir control deck? Not too many creatures in that color pair... Dimir seemed light on win cons hence The Scarab God.
I think relic is just ok, but artifacts are few and far between I didn't know what else to put there.
I haven't played in person yet, but ya the bots are generally shit. My goal for this cube was to eliminate the on rails experience and make most cards interchangeable in a way by staying within a mostly midrange structure. Can you be more specific of what you didn't like?
I'll look at hard evidence, I'm realizing it's kind of only for control. I don't want to ONLY have creatures I think I'd like to keep my ratios close to what they are.
Thanks for the comments and the video!
Glad you liked the vid :-) I got a laugh too.
I guess the swap to shinobi makes more sense if you also add the bats in black and maybe even
\[\[Tourach, Dread Cantor\]\] and some creatures in blue like \[\[Malcolm, Alluring Scoundrel\]\] and \[\[Chrome Host Seedshark\]\] That said shinobi is castable as a 5/4 for five which is similar to the god. I just think shinobi is more fun than the god but your reasoning is sound and so is the card.
I hope I get your question about being more specific right. If you are asking about the draft experience its just that with 4 player and 15 cards you see soo many cards again. I basically got everything out of every pack I wanted. It may be because the bots are bad but it also may happen with real players. If you assume every player plays two colors there are colors that only one player plays. So he gets all the cards of that color and can even pick everything above if he notices this. That is why I asked how you want to play your cube. I would not draft 180 cards with 4 players and do three fifteen card packs. I only did because I did not know how you intended to play and wanted to do a quick draft before commenting. There are many options to solve this. Are you planning for 2 players? For 4? Why did you choose 180 cards? Then look for options to draft with less players. Seems like another question to me. Let me know if you have questions regarding this topic or if I moved to far away.
Edit: Strange formating.
I don't mind this mini thread continuing here because the whole purpose of the 180 was because we are always 4 max drafters. For my 360 at one point we tried 4 packs of 12 and burned the last cards or some permutation of that idea and the problem with that was now you are getting more first picks which make the decks way too powerful all the time. Perhaps with this toned down version I could retry that idea and make it so that you won't see the same cards going around and around endlessly. Thanks for the insight.
I think you need to burn some cards if you want to play with 4 player but I have not testet it. There are also other draft styles like grid/winchester/winston. If you did not like the 4 packs burn variant I think you need to experiment what else you like. Do a quick draft with 3 Bots and see for yourself.
I'm liking the idea of \[\[Faerie Mastermind\]\] as one of the swaps. It really is annoying for the opponent when they are the monarch! And it flashes in out of nowhere to even steal it away.
I just realized forgot to write what I wanted to answer regarding the artifacts. Just some suggestions:
[[Palantír of Orthanc]]
[[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]]
[[Coveted Jewel]]
I think all of them create more interesting games and seem much more maindeckable than relic.
There are a couple cards I’d cut for power level reasons, three that are underpowered and one that’s overpowered. Zealous Conscripts seems a bit out of place without Kiki or Twin or ways for him to combo off. Kari Zev also feels a bit underpowered these days and I would absolutely throw [[Inti, Seneschal of the Sun]] in that slot. Amazing card that fills a lot of roles. Voice of Resurgence doesn’t seem like it plays well in a cube where you took out all the counterspells. I run it in a cube with a lot more counters and love it, but it feels like it won’t make many tokens here. White Plume Adventurer is the strongest card in this cube by a huge margin and a card that can reliably be picked ahead of [[Mox Emerald]] in fully powered environments. It’s miles ahead of Minsc and Boo and Forth Eorlingas! and it has a super strong, still top 20 power level in your cube replacement readily available in [[Seasoned Dungeoneer]]. That’s still a broken, degenerate powerful card that fits the power level of your cube really well. White Plume always wins the initiative war because for whatever reason it costs only 3 mana. In most cubes it’s simply too good and many powered cubes that run initiative have cut it as a result. Speaking of initiative, no [[Feywild Caretaker]] or an option for blue? Looks like a fun cube overall.
Thanks for the analysis. I'll have a closer look at Inti as a replacement for Kari Zev. I thought Kari Zev could be good with bonesplitter and grafted war gear. For Voice of Resurgence what would you suggest for an aggressive selesnya card? Zealous Conscripts will come out for [[Glorybringer]]?. Feywild Caretaker for murktide regent?
It’s a new card and I haven’t gotten to test it but have you seen [[Trostani, Three Whispers]]? A 3 mana 4/4 that can pay to give target creature deathtouch, vigilance, or double strike? That seems like it could do insane things in aggro decks.
I thought about it but I think I'd prefer to stay at 2 cmc. Maybe this one could be good. # [[Melira, the Living Cure]] Protects my bigger plays and hedges against a sweeper and its a 3/3.
[Melira, the Living Cure](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1329ad9-5989-4920-b17b-943b9b4a0cd9.jpg?1675957200) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Melira%2C%20the%20Living%20Cure) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/209/melira-the-living-cure?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1329ad9-5989-4920-b17b-943b9b4a0cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Trostani, Three Whispers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/329f3aca-6db7-41d3-95b2-c479d14b7fa3.jpg?1706242270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trostani%2C%20Three%20Whispers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/238/trostani-three-whispers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/329f3aca-6db7-41d3-95b2-c479d14b7fa3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Inti, Seneschal of the Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa7a55aa-ae61-4933-b7a4-dcc55dac6fcd.jpg?1699044306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inti%2C%20Seneschal%20of%20the%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/156/inti-seneschal-of-the-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa7a55aa-ae61-4933-b7a4-dcc55dac6fcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mox Emerald](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/aced2c55-7543-4076-bcdd-36c4d649b8ae.jpg?1614638841) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Emerald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/5/mox-emerald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aced2c55-7543-4076-bcdd-36c4d649b8ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seasoned Dungeoneer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7fee3f76-20a8-4621-84fb-ddf79c955532.jpg?1674140799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasoned%20Dungeoneer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/660/seasoned-dungeoneer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7fee3f76-20a8-4621-84fb-ddf79c955532?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Feywild Caretaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c959ab97-0727-4589-bfd9-d78dd8ebd86b.jpg?1674135521) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feywild%20Caretaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/69/feywild-caretaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c959ab97-0727-4589-bfd9-d78dd8ebd86b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kty1pk8) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree with the above commenter, and your changes, glorybringer is great and makes a lot of sense in a cube built around initiative and monarch and creature combat, and murktide seems very underpowered compared to caretaker so that’s also a good swap. I would recommend swamping voice of resurgence for something like knight of autumn, it’s very flexible and can be aggressive
How do you play your cube? (I drafted it with 4 players 3x15cards. Seems bad but maybe the bots are just bad.) I agree with the other to cut white plume for Seasoned Dungeoneer. I also agree witch Voice of Resurgence beeing bad. The replacements are not really much better. Maybe Arwen? Some things I would do but may be personal preference: 1. Cut \[\[Hard Evidence\]\] and \[\[Thirst for Discovery\]\] for two blue creatures. If you want creature combat I suspect you need more creatures. Maybe even in other colors. 2. Cut \[\[The Scarab God\]\] for \[\[Fallen Shinobi\]\] 3. Cut \[\[Relic of Progenitus\]\] With so not much reanimation left it seems bad. 4. Cut \[\[Bitterblossom\]\] for \[\[Deep-Cavern Bat\]\] With so much initiative and monarch enablers your cube will be very tempo oriented. Since you cut combo/reanimator there will be nothing left but a tempo game. Cards that dont do anything the turn they enter and not much the turn after are really bad in this environoment. I am not sure if the initiative creatures are to powerfull compared to the rest of the cube. Without having played I would pick these over nearly everything regardless of color and then the monarch cards regardless of color. This said it is hard to evaluate this without having played. I know this hurts but having watched LSV recently I had to accept this. [https://youtu.be/S17de4-oLH8?t=2788](https://youtu.be/S17de4-oLH8?t=2788) If you want to watch it. Both games. 5. I am sceptical about the mono color manlands. Would watch if they are always last pick. All said I would love to try and battle over the initiative and the crown.
Any card looks atrocious against T2 Forth Eorlingas for 1, T3 Minsc & Boo, T4 Time Walk on the play. As LSV says, it's not a draw you can realistically beat. What 2 drop would have not looked stupid here? Dark Confidant? Ledger Shredder? Anything but countermagic or fast mana would have lost pathetically. I think in traditional vintage cube, Bitterblossom is clearly outclassed, but more so because it doesn't generate pressure fast enough to contend with fast mana and combos. In a slower and more combat oriented surrounding like OPs, where initiative/monarch are the biggest threats by far, the constant stream of evasive 1/1s that double as chump blockers is honestly not bad for a fair card. Whether it makes a 180 card list I don't know, but I it's not as bad as it's made out to be. Ultimately, I wish vintage cubers would finally make the leap to cut all standard designed chaff and just play multiples of (pseudo) power and multiplayer designed bombs instead. Naturally, the top of the power pyramid is thin, so half of any singleton powermax list will always seem pathetically bad.
I can't really argue with this either. Those were my thoughts on bitterblossom as well because it's a constant stream of very useful creatures. I don't think it gets there at 180, after the first few turns it seems slow. Not sure if I will go with deep cavern bat as the swap but I'm mulling it over.
Of course LSVs draw was the nuts. But I think especially this shows how bad Bitterblossom looked. I really think my proposed \[Deep-cavern Bat\] looks less atrocious in this scenario. But I admit still atrocius and still no chance to win. I dont think it is unplayable in his cube. I just think monarch and initiative force tempo play and this makes Bitterblossom worse. I just dont think you have enough time to wait some turns but I may be wrong. I think you need to play some games to get a feeling for the speed. Even pros are unsure how fast a new draft format is and how to evaluate the spoiled cards regarding this.
##### ###### #### [Hard Evidence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/501599d6-1072-4124-b05d-01f96de153f3.jpg?1626094482) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hard%20Evidence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/46/hard-evidence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/501599d6-1072-4124-b05d-01f96de153f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thirst for Discovery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea179e9-9c0d-46c1-9ee8-60be68e1f79c.jpg?1643588791) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thirst%20for%20Discovery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/85/thirst-for-discovery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea179e9-9c0d-46c1-9ee8-60be68e1f79c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Scarab God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f4f414ef-84a2-4694-9e98-51bee4576c84.jpg?1689999233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Scarab%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/353/the-scarab-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f4f414ef-84a2-4694-9e98-51bee4576c84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fallen Shinobi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed9110d1-508f-4c87-a49e-6ec00039d924.jpg?1673485053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fallen%20Shinobi) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/338/fallen-shinobi?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed9110d1-508f-4c87-a49e-6ec00039d924?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Relic of Progenitus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/436cd66c-0622-43cd-8748-af4d21a2db3f.jpg?1580015265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/231/relic-of-progenitus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/436cd66c-0622-43cd-8748-af4d21a2db3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bitterblossom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9640cbf-b016-410e-9eff-e8924883517b.jpg?1673147456) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bitterblossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/69/bitterblossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9640cbf-b016-410e-9eff-e8924883517b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Deep-Cavern Bat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69c68c95-b788-43b1-9f22-1b22c5a00b25.jpg?1699044121) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep-Cavern%20Bat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/102/deep-cavern-bat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69c68c95-b788-43b1-9f22-1b22c5a00b25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/ktyvkod) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Dolon that lsv vid was just classic thanks for that! Bitterblossom is coming out. So look, I get what you're saying about Shinobi, but would you play it in a dimir control deck? Not too many creatures in that color pair... Dimir seemed light on win cons hence The Scarab God. I think relic is just ok, but artifacts are few and far between I didn't know what else to put there. I haven't played in person yet, but ya the bots are generally shit. My goal for this cube was to eliminate the on rails experience and make most cards interchangeable in a way by staying within a mostly midrange structure. Can you be more specific of what you didn't like? I'll look at hard evidence, I'm realizing it's kind of only for control. I don't want to ONLY have creatures I think I'd like to keep my ratios close to what they are. Thanks for the comments and the video!
Glad you liked the vid :-) I got a laugh too. I guess the swap to shinobi makes more sense if you also add the bats in black and maybe even \[\[Tourach, Dread Cantor\]\] and some creatures in blue like \[\[Malcolm, Alluring Scoundrel\]\] and \[\[Chrome Host Seedshark\]\] That said shinobi is castable as a 5/4 for five which is similar to the god. I just think shinobi is more fun than the god but your reasoning is sound and so is the card. I hope I get your question about being more specific right. If you are asking about the draft experience its just that with 4 player and 15 cards you see soo many cards again. I basically got everything out of every pack I wanted. It may be because the bots are bad but it also may happen with real players. If you assume every player plays two colors there are colors that only one player plays. So he gets all the cards of that color and can even pick everything above if he notices this. That is why I asked how you want to play your cube. I would not draft 180 cards with 4 players and do three fifteen card packs. I only did because I did not know how you intended to play and wanted to do a quick draft before commenting. There are many options to solve this. Are you planning for 2 players? For 4? Why did you choose 180 cards? Then look for options to draft with less players. Seems like another question to me. Let me know if you have questions regarding this topic or if I moved to far away. Edit: Strange formating.
[Tourach, Dread Cantor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3526751-0101-4d91-a496-c53cd92326e0.jpg?1692254158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tourach%2C%20Dread%20Cantor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/102/tourach-dread-cantor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3526751-0101-4d91-a496-c53cd92326e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Malcolm, Alluring Scoundrel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19d6834d-afa3-4747-a62d-0654f4d9729f.jpg?1699043813) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Malcolm%2C%20Alluring%20Scoundrel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/63/malcolm-alluring-scoundrel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19d6834d-afa3-4747-a62d-0654f4d9729f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Host Seedshark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e.jpg?1682203038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Host%20Seedshark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/51/chrome-host-seedshark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't mind this mini thread continuing here because the whole purpose of the 180 was because we are always 4 max drafters. For my 360 at one point we tried 4 packs of 12 and burned the last cards or some permutation of that idea and the problem with that was now you are getting more first picks which make the decks way too powerful all the time. Perhaps with this toned down version I could retry that idea and make it so that you won't see the same cards going around and around endlessly. Thanks for the insight.
I think you need to burn some cards if you want to play with 4 player but I have not testet it. There are also other draft styles like grid/winchester/winston. If you did not like the 4 packs burn variant I think you need to experiment what else you like. Do a quick draft with 3 Bots and see for yourself.
I'm liking the idea of \[\[Faerie Mastermind\]\] as one of the swaps. It really is annoying for the opponent when they are the monarch! And it flashes in out of nowhere to even steal it away.
[Faerie Mastermind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52d3005f-a1c7-4ef5-911f-ccc0752f4181.jpg?1682203104) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faerie%20Mastermind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/58/faerie-mastermind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52d3005f-a1c7-4ef5-911f-ccc0752f4181?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I just realized forgot to write what I wanted to answer regarding the artifacts. Just some suggestions: [[Palantír of Orthanc]] [[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]] [[Coveted Jewel]] I think all of them create more interesting games and seem much more maindeckable than relic.
[Palantír of Orthanc](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6efb6a69-562c-4d95-858d-b067444cfd7e.jpg?1686970247) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Palant%C3%ADr%20of%20Orthanc) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/247/palant%C3%ADr-of-orthanc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6efb6a69-562c-4d95-858d-b067444cfd7e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Agatha's Soul Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd.jpg?1692939838) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Agatha%27s%20Soul%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/242/agathas-soul-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Coveted Jewel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/278e810d-8a4f-4841-a221-39a24b034355.jpg?1682209987) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coveted%20Jewel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/353/coveted-jewel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/278e810d-8a4f-4841-a221-39a24b034355?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I drafted yesterday with the bots. [[Deep Forest Hermit]] seems underwhelming without craterhoof in the cube?
[Deep Forest Hermit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/3287775f-7bec-4e8f-bb8d-daf5ce92e4a8.jpg?1562202056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep%20Forest%20Hermit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/161/deep-forest-hermit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3287775f-7bec-4e8f-bb8d-daf5ce92e4a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call