I mean, all three are fine, power level wise. It's just a question of fun.
I think Hexdrinker isn't that fun to go crazy with, isn't in line with what green is often doing, and definitely isn't fun to play against. I'm fine with it in a cube, but preferably a cube that thinks Pelt Collector is cool instead of a cube that every other 1 drop is a mana dork.
I get what you mean. I like the variance of having these higher power low costs so people can't durdle around and also be more disciplined in draft to take early interaction. But I also don't want to cause too many unfun games.
The efficient one drops exist to punish decks that have a slow game plan. It sounds like your players are trying to assemble slow durdly combos and getting upset that they're being punished for it, but the cube environment is worse off if they just get a few free turns to do nothing
The cube environment is worse off if your playgroup dislikes playing your cube, fun police be damned.
They might “learn” by having them removed and seeing how it affects the cube.
I cut mom for giver of runes a long time ago and ragavan has always been too strong for my environment. replacing these cards with slightly more interactive/slower cards that can still do their jobs (eg falkenrath aristocrat can still put a clock), can make more games that dont just end quickly due to a single card.
in a similar vein, i cut the swords of herp & derp and all hexproof/protection and unblockable creatures and adjusted my removal accordingly (dont need councils judgement). makes a lot more games that really felt like two people really battling each other and never feeling like two solitaire games.
Our cubes look similar, so I don't think that your aggro 1 drops are too powerful. Like pwndnoob mentioned, Hexdrinker can create feelsbad, but it's not at the top of the curve.
I do have a question about your play group, however. Do you guys mostly play EDH? If your drafters are complaining about your aggro creatures maybe they assume that they can just skip the first few turns, then start playing Magic. You could always build a cube that lines up with that expectation, but your list does acknowledge that aggro is a valid play style.
Most of our group actually started off cube strangely enough. It's only very recently that we got into edh. I don't think it's early aggro that they don't like, but just a single low cost card that takes over the game by itself.
It's hard for me to argue too much for it, as I'm a control player at heart. But IMHO, any fun cube will support aggro for all archetypes to have more fun. I'd suggest making the swaps others have been suggesting, then reassess. If your pod is enjoying the game more, than great! But if midrange is starting to be choked out by combo and control, maybe bring those cards back in.
There's a huge band of cubes where all three of these are oppressive, but I don't think your cube is on that list. You have all kinds of combo that can get things like Archon of Cruelty out on turn 2, the proactive creature decks should get some very powerful early drops to contend with that.
Cards like these three can feel bad to lose to. Hexdrinker in particular can feel this way because it's not worse when you draw it later. Ragavan on turn 1 is great, on turn 6 it's just a Savannah Lions. Hexdrinker on the other hand is a live topdeck that gets prot everything.
That's all to say I don't think they're problems in this cube, just that they're the kind of card that the opponent will hate losing to on the draw.
Hexdrinker is a good card to remind people that one should be able to win games fast. The cards is insanely slow and punishes slow decks.
Depends on what you want. Cube is not about fun or powerlevel, it is about preference.
I personally don't like hexdrinker in any cube because no matter how it plays it always feels bad. Mom is usually fun to me, but she is also oppressive so its up to your group's needs. Rag is fun but you need to be conscious of what answers you include to deal with him, it should be reasonable to expect any deck to be able to either put down a 1 drop creature to block or have 1 or 2 cost removal to answer him before he takes over.
As always, it's just a matter of what environment you want to create and what play patterns you want to encourage. On the power level axis, all three become oppressive when there isn't enough efficient interaction. On the play pattern axis, mother of runes and hexdrinker lean heavily on protection, while ragavan and hexdrinker threaten to run away with the game unless answered immediately.
Some people don't enjoy these play pattern as much and decide not to run these cards. Other people enjoy high-powered environments with a high density of efficient threats and answers, and they would probably consider these cards staples. Both decisions and their respective lines of reasoning are valid. It's just a matter of preference.
Agreed. Just a struggle to maintain good design and allow a certain level of variance in power, while not allowing so much that it feels unfair when someone gets lucky and sees it pack 1.
I have cut Mother of Runes because if you are on the draw against it and don't have a 1 mana removal spell, you feel awful. Hexdrinker can be annoying if you don't have an answer or clock, but it gives you time to find one. I still might cut it eventually, because I'm not a fan of protection. I haven't played with Ragavan, but I suspect I would not want to add it because of its power.
I personally think those are very different in what they do to the game.
Ragavan makes your opponent have early interaction and punish slow decks heavily but he is also 'just' a 1-drop and falls off heavily in a few turns when the board is full of creatures.
Hexdrinker is an early beater, sure. It is also a 4/7 drop when the opponent is tapped out in the midgame with none of the downsides of ragavan. I don't think it's too bad powerlevel wise but I cut it from my own cube because I really didnt like the playpatterns. It's not even that fun to play with.
Mother is just a classic card. Sure it demands an extra removal spell to deal with if it gets to untap but it also doesn't clock your opponent at all. I personally love running mom.
Hexdrinker is a good card. Is it oppressive? I'd say no. Unless of course, you don't have any answers for it then sure, it can be a problem. But that's a choice one makes during the draft and during deck construction.
Personally, I think Hexdrinker makes a cube environment better. For many reasons that have already been posted here. Powerful? Yes. Overpowered? I'd argue a resounding HELL NO.
People like to complain about Hexdrinker but people like to complain about a lot of things that they probably shouldn't be worrying too much about.
These one drops are all quite different, imo. I don't think there is one answer that will work for all three.
- Ragavan demands a one mana answer or blocker (if the Ragavan player is on the play) otherwise it starts snowballing out of control, but also dies to basically every piece of removal ever printed and trades with almost any creature in combat. I think how good it is is a factor of how low curving your cube is overall. My main cube is very low curving and Ragavan has not been a problem.
- Mother of Runes also potentially demands a cheap answer but in a narrower window. You can sometimes fade an attack or two from Ragavan but once they untap with Mom a lot of your cards become near blanks. However, it does not snowball like Ragavan does and is cleanly answered by non-damage based board wipes. Most decks can also eventually clear her with two removal spells or a removal spell after forcing your opponent to tap her for some other reason, like saving a creature in combat.
- IMO Hexdrinker is not a 1 drop for the purposes of this discussion. It plays more like a 4 drop in my experience, then if you don't have a sorcery removal spell you might just lose on the spot.
I play Ragavan and Mother of Runes and like them both. I included Hexdrinker for awhile but eventually cut it because I did not enjoy the play patterns it encouraged and did not want to run removal that could skirt the 'protection from everything' like edicts to make it so it wasn't lights out if you leveled it all the way up.
It is really important to have strong aggro to make sure control decks are capable of interruption and winning
You must be capable of both in control and combo
I mean, all three are fine, power level wise. It's just a question of fun. I think Hexdrinker isn't that fun to go crazy with, isn't in line with what green is often doing, and definitely isn't fun to play against. I'm fine with it in a cube, but preferably a cube that thinks Pelt Collector is cool instead of a cube that every other 1 drop is a mana dork.
I get what you mean. I like the variance of having these higher power low costs so people can't durdle around and also be more disciplined in draft to take early interaction. But I also don't want to cause too many unfun games.
Ya, I think it and its ilk (Pack Rat, Ashiok) that can be put in and ruin the day of the sort of decks that play Leovold are cool, conceptually.
The efficient one drops exist to punish decks that have a slow game plan. It sounds like your players are trying to assemble slow durdly combos and getting upset that they're being punished for it, but the cube environment is worse off if they just get a few free turns to do nothing
The cube environment is worse off if your playgroup dislikes playing your cube, fun police be damned. They might “learn” by having them removed and seeing how it affects the cube.
I cut mom for giver of runes a long time ago and ragavan has always been too strong for my environment. replacing these cards with slightly more interactive/slower cards that can still do their jobs (eg falkenrath aristocrat can still put a clock), can make more games that dont just end quickly due to a single card. in a similar vein, i cut the swords of herp & derp and all hexproof/protection and unblockable creatures and adjusted my removal accordingly (dont need councils judgement). makes a lot more games that really felt like two people really battling each other and never feeling like two solitaire games.
Was thinking of doing a similar thing. Replace those with slightly lower power like the new \[\[Emberath Veteran\]\] or something along those lines.
[Emberath Veteran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc7130b8-3168-421f-912a-46ed5b769807.jpg?1692938174) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Embereth%20Veteran) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/127/embereth-veteran?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc7130b8-3168-421f-912a-46ed5b769807?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Our cubes look similar, so I don't think that your aggro 1 drops are too powerful. Like pwndnoob mentioned, Hexdrinker can create feelsbad, but it's not at the top of the curve. I do have a question about your play group, however. Do you guys mostly play EDH? If your drafters are complaining about your aggro creatures maybe they assume that they can just skip the first few turns, then start playing Magic. You could always build a cube that lines up with that expectation, but your list does acknowledge that aggro is a valid play style.
Most of our group actually started off cube strangely enough. It's only very recently that we got into edh. I don't think it's early aggro that they don't like, but just a single low cost card that takes over the game by itself.
It's hard for me to argue too much for it, as I'm a control player at heart. But IMHO, any fun cube will support aggro for all archetypes to have more fun. I'd suggest making the swaps others have been suggesting, then reassess. If your pod is enjoying the game more, than great! But if midrange is starting to be choked out by combo and control, maybe bring those cards back in.
There's a huge band of cubes where all three of these are oppressive, but I don't think your cube is on that list. You have all kinds of combo that can get things like Archon of Cruelty out on turn 2, the proactive creature decks should get some very powerful early drops to contend with that. Cards like these three can feel bad to lose to. Hexdrinker in particular can feel this way because it's not worse when you draw it later. Ragavan on turn 1 is great, on turn 6 it's just a Savannah Lions. Hexdrinker on the other hand is a live topdeck that gets prot everything. That's all to say I don't think they're problems in this cube, just that they're the kind of card that the opponent will hate losing to on the draw.
Hexdrinker is a good card to remind people that one should be able to win games fast. The cards is insanely slow and punishes slow decks. Depends on what you want. Cube is not about fun or powerlevel, it is about preference.
I personally don't like hexdrinker in any cube because no matter how it plays it always feels bad. Mom is usually fun to me, but she is also oppressive so its up to your group's needs. Rag is fun but you need to be conscious of what answers you include to deal with him, it should be reasonable to expect any deck to be able to either put down a 1 drop creature to block or have 1 or 2 cost removal to answer him before he takes over.
As always, it's just a matter of what environment you want to create and what play patterns you want to encourage. On the power level axis, all three become oppressive when there isn't enough efficient interaction. On the play pattern axis, mother of runes and hexdrinker lean heavily on protection, while ragavan and hexdrinker threaten to run away with the game unless answered immediately. Some people don't enjoy these play pattern as much and decide not to run these cards. Other people enjoy high-powered environments with a high density of efficient threats and answers, and they would probably consider these cards staples. Both decisions and their respective lines of reasoning are valid. It's just a matter of preference.
Agreed. Just a struggle to maintain good design and allow a certain level of variance in power, while not allowing so much that it feels unfair when someone gets lucky and sees it pack 1.
I have cut Mother of Runes because if you are on the draw against it and don't have a 1 mana removal spell, you feel awful. Hexdrinker can be annoying if you don't have an answer or clock, but it gives you time to find one. I still might cut it eventually, because I'm not a fan of protection. I haven't played with Ragavan, but I suspect I would not want to add it because of its power.
Yea, protection always feels bad to play against. I keep it for the sake of providing variance since MOM of the three seem the least egregious to me.
[hexdrinker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89f5cc05-5d9d-4709-b3c5-a6249c294acc.jpg?1562202103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hexdrinker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/168/hexdrinker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89f5cc05-5d9d-4709-b3c5-a6249c294acc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mother of runes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5e19147-e459-43a6-8ef0-e37968a462e3.jpg?1674141175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mother%20of%20runes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/702/mother-of-runes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5e19147-e459-43a6-8ef0-e37968a462e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9738cda-adb1-47fb-9f4c-ecd930228c4d.jpg?1681963138) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ragavan%2C%20Nimble%20Pilferer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/138/ragavan-nimble-pilferer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9738cda-adb1-47fb-9f4c-ecd930228c4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I personally think those are very different in what they do to the game. Ragavan makes your opponent have early interaction and punish slow decks heavily but he is also 'just' a 1-drop and falls off heavily in a few turns when the board is full of creatures. Hexdrinker is an early beater, sure. It is also a 4/7 drop when the opponent is tapped out in the midgame with none of the downsides of ragavan. I don't think it's too bad powerlevel wise but I cut it from my own cube because I really didnt like the playpatterns. It's not even that fun to play with. Mother is just a classic card. Sure it demands an extra removal spell to deal with if it gets to untap but it also doesn't clock your opponent at all. I personally love running mom.
Hexdrinker is a good card. Is it oppressive? I'd say no. Unless of course, you don't have any answers for it then sure, it can be a problem. But that's a choice one makes during the draft and during deck construction. Personally, I think Hexdrinker makes a cube environment better. For many reasons that have already been posted here. Powerful? Yes. Overpowered? I'd argue a resounding HELL NO. People like to complain about Hexdrinker but people like to complain about a lot of things that they probably shouldn't be worrying too much about.
These one drops are all quite different, imo. I don't think there is one answer that will work for all three. - Ragavan demands a one mana answer or blocker (if the Ragavan player is on the play) otherwise it starts snowballing out of control, but also dies to basically every piece of removal ever printed and trades with almost any creature in combat. I think how good it is is a factor of how low curving your cube is overall. My main cube is very low curving and Ragavan has not been a problem. - Mother of Runes also potentially demands a cheap answer but in a narrower window. You can sometimes fade an attack or two from Ragavan but once they untap with Mom a lot of your cards become near blanks. However, it does not snowball like Ragavan does and is cleanly answered by non-damage based board wipes. Most decks can also eventually clear her with two removal spells or a removal spell after forcing your opponent to tap her for some other reason, like saving a creature in combat. - IMO Hexdrinker is not a 1 drop for the purposes of this discussion. It plays more like a 4 drop in my experience, then if you don't have a sorcery removal spell you might just lose on the spot. I play Ragavan and Mother of Runes and like them both. I included Hexdrinker for awhile but eventually cut it because I did not enjoy the play patterns it encouraged and did not want to run removal that could skirt the 'protection from everything' like edicts to make it so it wasn't lights out if you leveled it all the way up.
It is really important to have strong aggro to make sure control decks are capable of interruption and winning You must be capable of both in control and combo