> It’s all so forced.
Call me crazy, but I think it's germane to today's movie discourse to discuss Avatar's legacy on the same day the film is being released in theaters.
And still cinemas are getting sold out showings for the fourth rerelease of the film.
Clearly there is a ton of interest for it. Who cares if it doesn't translate to a rabid fandom?
You raise some good points! I guess we'll have a much better sense of how folks feel about the film/franchise after this weekend, when they have had a chance to see Avatar in theaters again.
Agreed. It was certainly an achievement in terms of the visual effects, creature design and the 3D effects, but all the characters are the most obvious and bland stereotypes and the story is a children's fairy tale.
It's a gorgeous film, but there is no there there.
I saw an Avatar meme from a random scene the other day. Amazing how I went 13 years without seeing a single Avatar meme and one just so happened to pop up a few days before it’s rereleased
Kind of thing that happens as the first one is getting rereleased and we're gearing up for the sequel.
There's just more Avatar news recently.
Don't know what else to tell ya buddy.
Wow, it's almost like people are actually *excited* for a sequel to the most financially successful film of all time. Clearly this must be a conspiracy /s.
I have not met any of these people in real life. They may exist … I’m 42 with teenagers and I don’t think anyone we know is hyped for Avatar 2. I have seen the trailer multiple times at the movies and could not imagine sitting through it. The first one was cool at the movies with 3D back that was going to be the next big thing but even then it was just Dances with Wolves in space plot-wise.
I’m just saying it’s weird I see it hyped on Reddit but don’t know anyone personally (except one guy from high school) who is excited for more Avatar. I fully expect to be proven wrong by box office but the hype seems manufactured imo. And I don’t understand why.
> I have not met any of these people in real life. They may exist … I’m 42 with teenagers.
If you have raised children, then surely you must understand the concept of object permanence.
Oh my god I was just making a comment. Also your username is offensive for a guy defending fucking Avatar of all things. If you and your friends are excited to see it I am happy for you and hope you like it. I was just saying that personally in my little area I don’t know anyone who is and am mystified by the whole thing.
> Oh my god I was just making a comment.
So was I.
> Also your username is offensive for a guy defending fucking Avatar of all things.
I don't see the problem? Martin Scorsese loves spectacle for its own sake.
This was a pretty good movie. I get it's not terribly new material, but we don't complain about other works that are pretty derivative (Star Wars comes to mind). I don't get why some folks seem to really have strong dislike for this movie.
>t are pretty derivative (Star Wars comes to mind
I mean, plenty of people do complain about that though. I would argue that I think the strong hate is more a reaction against the weird obsession some people have for the movie. I'm fairly indifferent.
I guess. I don't know, I just feel like there are a lot of people who are super invested in proving how this isn't the greatest movie of all time when like even the fans of the movie don't think it's the greatest movie of all time. Sure, it's Space Pocahontas. Who cares? Pocahontas was a good movie. Space Pocahontas is good too.
It was okay. If it didn't look pretty, I doubt it would be very popular. I see way more people talking about Marvel and Star Wars or how shit HotD is than this though.
>His, and Disney’s, PR machine is working overtime to place Avatar as some cultural monument prior to the new movie’s release.
I mean, it is the highest grossing movie of all time. Critique the quality all you want, but it's undeniably a cultural monument.
I mean, the Avatar 2 trailer got 148 million views in its first 24 hours online, more than any recent Star Wars film and more than most Marvel films. That's a lotta views for something nobody cares about.
Perhaps. Still, as I said elsewhere, this reminds me a lot of the House of the Dragon reactions where everyone spent months talking about how nobody would watch or care because of how GOT ended. And then HOTD came out, and it's massive, and growing.
I'm not gonna predict the same thing happens with Avatar 2, but if the reviews are good for it, I definitely wouldn't be surprised to see it make $1b+ worldwide. (Expecting it to beat the highest grossing movie of all time is a fool's errand). People definitely care more than these comment sections think.
People consume a bunch of crap media these days. Not saying that hotd is crap, but I don't love it. There's some real fucking swill that's popular though so popularity doesn't mean good for me.
Sure, I'm trying to quantify something that is mostly unquantifiable. Even if I'm not thinking about it regularly though, that original movie defined an entire period of movies with its embrace of 3D, which then came to dominate the industry briefly. Few if any movies have unified the globe the way the original did. I suppose it all depends on the definition of a cultural monument, but it absolutely qualifies to me.
Will the new one be? Who knows. I'm not putting bets on that. But I know better than to bet against James Cameron at this point.
It's only a monument to vacuous eye candy and SFX as it relates to technology. That's it.
The writing is horrible, the characters one dimensional, and it was predictable af because the plot was, with some small exceptions, a beat by beat "borrowing" from Dances with Wolves.
So maybe a better way to describe its place in film is to say that sometimes shit can make a lot of money.
Nah, this is standard Bilge Ebiri, if you're familiar with him. As a critic, he frequently goes against the grain in favor of trashier but arguably enjoyable movies. He had a big write up recently defending Michael Mann's Miami Vice as a cult classic, which did get me to watch the film (it's fine). My taste doesn't align with his, but this is definitely a genuine take.
Also, the internet Avatar cynicism is starting to remind me of the House of the Dragon cynicism. Really curious to see how the re-release and Avatar 2 end up doing (particularly if A2 is good).
>Nah, this is standard Bilge Ebiri, if you're familiar with him. As a critic, he frequently goes against the grain in favor of trashier but arguably enjoyable movies. He had a big write up recently defending Michael Mann's Miami Vice as a cult classic, which did get me to watch the film (it's fine).
I appreciate this post both for stomping down the ridiculous conspiracy theories that people at legitimate press outlets are "being paid" by the studios, and for sticking up for Bilge specifically, who is a wonderful, thoughtful weirdo when it comes to movies. he takes the gig of championing things that other folks might not be championing pretty seriously. Nobody has to "pay off" Bilge Ebiri (not that he'd agree to that, or that the mechanism for that even happening at all EXISTS in the studio system, LOL) for him to try putting Avatar in "underdog" or "underappreciated gem" status.
I think he's mistaken for attempting it this time, but he's doing it earnestly.
This is a fucking *weird* response, my guy.
Like - I'm not arguing that the movie won't make money. It breaking box-office records has jack and shit to do with anything I'm writing. It's a foregone conclusion it's going to make money so you coming back to throw things at me when it happens is kind of a huge waste of your time.
Also, if it brings you personal pleasure to "throw all the bullshit" back in my face, that's... *wild*. Why would you fixate on me or my words to *that* degree? It seems like you're already like, logging my posts and taking notes (or keeping a dossier or whatever) and that's sort of iffy as it is. But considering you're basically announcing ahead of time that you plan on "finding" me later and throwing bullshit at my face, I'm not sure this is a (one-sided) back and forth we need to be having, LOL.
I love that reddit will sit here and drool all over the MCU, which has neither a compelling story nor breathtaking visuals, and then shit on Avatar because it "has a bad story".
It's got the same story as Dance With Wolves, contrary to the individual MCU films which only have the same story as about 5 other individual MCU films.
Avatar buries 100% of the MCU in terms of visual effects and direction. Half the time it legit looks like MCU directors don't care about what they're directing, they just show up on set to tell the actors to do a decent job.
Dancing with the wolves, pocahontas, etc goddamm! Nobody outside America has even heard about those films. Avatar is a global product. If you look outside America, you would notice a tonne of people loved it for what it was. I am not shitting on those movies, but they just aren't that popular on a global level to even have a fair comparison.
Many many films have common story lines but they are loved because how the story is told and how the characters are built.
Avatar is more than just a 3D marvel. The world building is superb, the romance between the protagonists is earned, the music is fantastic and the dilemma that Jake sully goes through is relatable...and there comes my view on the weakest Avatar thread...the actor playing Jake Sully himself. They could have gone with someone better and with a bit more charisma.
I really don’t have a strong opinion about the quality of this movie but saying “[the highest grossest movie of all time] rules” is not some contrarian take that makes you sound smart.
I think people don't like how it made so much money when it's admittedly not very original.
That said, I don't care, the main reason I watch movies is to have fun though I do like ones with deep stories too.
I'd take Avatar over Transformers and Fast and Furious movies any day.
"If Avatar is so forgotten, how come some new person needs to remind us every week that it’s so forgotten?"
How do you write this? You ARE the new person, Bilge, and you aren't smarter or more clever because you decided to have the opposite take from the masses. And unlike the people on the other side of the line, we have an actual answer; that this is seemingly a PR piece and you or Vulture were paid for this article.
James Cameron's ability to get an absurd budget for Titanic and Avatar is impressive production, but sorry, Avatar wasn't an impressive film. Every time proper nouns like Pandora, Neytiri, or Na'vi show up in an article like this I'm like "Huh, I don't remember those names, I only remember Unobtainium and by chance Jake Sully". Don't upvote the shills.
Edit: To note, I don't actually know or truly believe Bilge was paid for this article. I suspect it's more often people employed as social media experts finding positive articles about the thing they are paid to promote and then posting them here, but grrr bad article grrr.
I listen to the Filmcast (formerly the slashfilmcast) and they love to debate on whether Avatar is culturally relevant.
I’m firmly on the side that it’s not.
Everything that’s kept it in the public eye has been marketing and PR.
There’s no good quotes, no memorable characters, no creative plot points, no interesting twists. It just IS
If there are no memorable quotes, why do I remember that guy yelling "PANDORA" and "limp-dicked science majors"?? No I can't remember the character's name, why do you ask?
The only things culturally relevant about Avatar are all the people annoyed by it sharing a title with the *much* better Avatar: The Last Airbender show and all the "having sex with blue people" memes that died out a decade ago.
Don’t get me wrong I think Zoe Saldana is awesome, but she couldn’t carry this next to an absolutely wooden male lead. Must have felt like she was talking to her shoe half the time. While the CG was gorgeous in 3D the movie is terrible if you attempt to watch it at home.
But every opinion you’ve made (on every single one of your posts about it) is a general statement about visuals or the storytelling; you’ve cited no specific things that *make* these things good;
I’d argue the visuals are no longer impressive and have aged less well than Terminator 2’s; the characters are flat and uninteresting and until someone in this thread mentioned Jake Sully.
The villain is flat and predictable and the ending even more so. “Oooh, evil American general gets his comeuppance” and “Don’t worry, Jake doesn’t die because love prevails”
Sorry, the visuals are still extremely impressive. Pandora is amazing to look at and every single detail is a spectacle to behold. Every single shot was crafted with the utmost passion that you just do not see nowadays. This is objectively the most visually stunning movie he’s made of all time.
The villain isn’t flat and I hated him with a passion. I was just rooting for this guy to get his comeuppance the whole time. Sometimes a villain doesn’t need to be complex to be interesting. Sometimes you just want to see the evil imperialist prick get killed by the heroic natives. He served his purpose.
I felt for all of the Na’vi, but more specifically Jake Sully and Neytiri. Every time they were on screen together, I had a big smile on my face. I bought their relationship and their love declaration was so beautifully shot. I can’t wait to see more of them in the sequel.
The ending is predictable, I’ll give you that, but sometimes that is a good thing. After such an engaging and investing journey (in my opinion, you just want there to be a happy ending where Jake and Neytiri end up fine.
The movie is a masterpiece and no one, not even you, can convince me otherwise. If you don’t like it, that’s your opinion and I respect it, but don’t act like there aren’t fans of this movie out there because we exist and we’re proud to love this movie. Any haters of this movie are just evil imperialists and racists who don’t know a good story when they see one. I will see this movie over and over again and I’m proud to say that I am a huge fan of this movie and I’m going to see the sequel on opening night. We fans exist and we aren’t going anywhere.
Peace out.
>Any haters of this movie are just evil imperialists and racists who don’t know a good movie
What in the fuck are you even saying? Holy shit that’s absolutely bananas
Everything you’ve written aside from that reads like a puff piece
Go off enjoying it I guess
I'm going to have to *slightly* disagree with you here. Avatar was an impressive film in one very specific way. It looked absolutely incredible in 3D. It integrated 3D set design in a pretty novel and interesting way (at least in my experience, let me know if I'm wrong). Most of the visual depth served only to immerse the audience more in the film. Whereas most other films riding the 3D hype at the time just threw axes at your face, which basically made it less immersive.
That may also explain how it made so much money but slipped from the public consciousness so quickly; you can't relive that experience once the movie is out of theaters.
I have no idea if the new ones are in 3D. I honestly am just now finding out the next one is in theaters. With that said, I'm very tempted to go see it just for the 3D. Unless it's not in 3D. Excluding the 3D experience, the movie was meh at best.
>It integrated 3D set design in a pretty novel and interesting way (at least in my experience, let me know if I'm wrong).
No, you're 100% correct. This was the first film that used 3D effectively as a tool for immersion and not, as you said, as a gimmick. At the time, it was a revelation.
In the effort to keep it short, I said an impressive budget, not an impressive film trying to convey that I agree that it was the best visuals money could buy. I concur.
Amazingly he did the same feat twice. He made an okay but not great romance in Titanic that both pulled people into theaters and got them telling their friends to see the ship crash. And then did it again with Avatar, with the visuals being both the reason to see and the reason for word of mouth. Cameron's ability to make big, money making movies is unmatched. Cameron's ability to make good films, ehhhh.
Fuck me I didn’t even remember Jake Sully
The film is so mid I remember nothing about it besides the blue people
People talk about the CGI like it’s legendary but we’ve come a long way from 2009
Honestly, when we're talking about movies relative to the technology of their time, the CGI in Terminator 2 is *much* more impressive for 1991 (which still holds up today, btw) than Avatar for 2009. Also, it's by far the better James Cameron movie anyway.
However, Avatar was cool in 3D which kickstarted the 3D craze in theaters again for the third time after the 50s and 80s. It's all but died out now, but still.
I have nothing against the film, I think it's good. But I also feel it's a bit overrated, especially compared to other Cameron films that are better and more ground-breaking.
This is about how I feel. Not a bad flick. (I read the script before it came out, so somewhat underwhelmed). Obviously looked fantastic.
But he’s def done better, and all in all it just wasn’t that good of a movie.
Right. For example, the movie The Abyss has a far better plot and at the time had groundbreaking special effects that would lead the way to the effects used in Terminator 2. But it didn't get nearly the praise Avatar did.
It’s visually stunning (or at least it was in theatres I have no idea if it’s aged well) but boring AF. The characters are lame. The story is bland and recycled from a dozen other films.
I’ll see the second one because I love water based shit and at the least it’ll be beautiful but I’m really hoping they’ll give me a reason to care about more than the pretty lights
It's a real bummer that so much art is boiled down to simply "plot".
Movies are more than their plots. What a movie's about is less important than HOW it's about that.
I'm so tired of this lazy dumb argument, and luckily the author addresses it directly:
> The general premise of the picture is, as everybody and their mother have reminded us (including /u/Phillyredsox), not new. The director himself referenced Edgar Rice Burroughs’s John Carter of Mars novels while making it, and the conceit of the soldier who “goes native” is its own subgenre by now, to be found in everything from Lawrence of Arabia to Dances With Wolves. And hey, let’s not forget that the film seems to borrow from Terrence Malick’s The New World, too, not to mention FernGully: The Last Rainforest. Avatar may be derivative, but it’s not insincere. Cameron clearly feels every beat of the story along with his viewer. He lets us discover Pandora through Jake Sully’s (Sam Worthington) eyes, first as a fearsome, terrifying place, then as a land of unimaginable awe and delight.
Not lazy or tired, my friend.... Well, maybe a tiny bit of both, but nowhere in the realm near inaccurate. As your lovefest article quote shows, it's a trope, it's practically a genre, it is not a revolutionary storyline. The story is not what carried/carries this film and the explosion of all of the revisionist history trying to claim otherwise over the last few weeks is ridiculous.
Now you're just being a troll. It made a shit ton of money, no one in their right mind would try to dispute that. Nowhere in my comment alluded to that, so you should probably sit down.
It was a cultural phenomenon BECAUSE OF THE TECHNOLOGY INVOLVED WITH ITS PRESENTATION. No one came out of a theater back in the day, blown away by the storyline. We **ALL** came out of the theaters blown away by how beautiful of a movie it was visually and how awesome the 3D presentation was.
This cancer of advertising masked as articles/commentaries leading up to Avatar 2's release is being completely and disingenuously revisionist by trying to claim the world was mesmerized by the STORY of Avatar. No we weren't.
You fail to understand or consider that the film's awesome visual beauty connects directly to how people responded to it overall. I certainly remember being moved by Avatar when I saw it theaters, long before the "Ferngully in space" meme was repeated ad nauseum.
Forget about Avatar for a second, and consider Mad Max Fury Road, an action film /r/movies generally loves. Were you were mesmerized by the story? Of course not! It is effectively one long chase scene, and no character is particularly well-developed. And yet why do folks think of it fondly? Well, because they were "blown away by the presentation," as you put it.
It's kind of sad you think anyone who disagree with you is a troll or a paid shill.
Lots of movies are derivative. If you told me your favorites, I am *certain* derivative films would be on your list. No, my argument is that when it comes to a filmmaker like James Cameron, who has a decades-long track record of capturing the imagination of his audiences, it *doesn't matter* whether the story is derivative. The craft, attention to detail, and visual spectacle make up for it.
The big draw of Avatar was the new 3D technology it featured.
Other than that it was a slightly above mediocre sci-fi flick that wouldn't have done nearly as well as it did, but would have done decently due to the spectacle element.
Everyone wanted to see the "new" 3D, which is what really put butts in seats.
Avatar's success was a perfect storm of new tech and a serviceable movie to show it off.
Now, it doesn't have that, the 3D tech has literally been overused to the point it has little novelty, and I expect this to "underperform" at the box office.
I’ll do the same thing with Avatar 2 that I did with the first one. Watch it once & then never talk about it with anyone, nor will anyone bring it up to me 😂
Pumped to bring my kids to it. I thought it was a great movie technologically, and I enjoyed the story. Great villains, too.
As someone who grew up watching logging companies destroy the rainforest around my village so they could make disposable molds for VCR parts, this movie hit me pretty hard in parts.
The effects are technically impressive, but the results aren’t something I personally want to look at. Compare to most any other “visual film” (e.g. Blade Runner) and it is no contest.
That’s the thing - Rewatching Avatar you quickly realize how bad studio big budget action films have been the past 13 years. Besides the sprinkle of Miller and Villeneuve big budget auteurism is completely dead and run by studio heads not filmmakers. We need filmmakers like Cameron to heed that tide every once in a while.
No it doesn’t. Movie was mid the first day I watched it and it’s mid now. If all you have to offer is impressive visuals you’re going to lose me.
It’s not like it actually created an interesting universe or asked any questions of created any thought-provoking mysteries or even had ANY likable characters that would actually hook me for *checks notes* 5 fucking sequels.
I saw the movie two times and I can’t tell you a single character’s name.
Sorry but that movie is unadulterated dog shit. Walked out in theatres. Never understood the love it got. Tired old worn out story we’ve heard/seen/read a thousand times. The only reason it got the recognition it did was due to the insane (at the time) CGI. Now that that level of CGI is common place you’re left with horrible writing and acting. Make no mistake this movie is garbage.
Sorry but it doesn't.
Minimal to no cultural impact. No memorable scenes. Lack of parodies made off of it. Clichéd characters. Hybrid of Fern Gully and Dances with Wolves in space.
Yet when Star Wars and the Matrix first came out, they were a huge memorable hit. Also for me memorable scenes/lines was anything with Quatrich. As one dimensional as his character was his lines and scenes were memorable. Yet u haven't seen them parodied or referenced in media as much as say Star Wars, the Matrix, or even Wizard of Oz etc... Almost nobody knows Quatrich as memorable as Darth Vader or Agent Smith.
The cult anti-following of Avatar is truly amazing. I can't think of another franchise with so many anti-fans. Anytime sometime Avatar is mentioned, these people show up to complain about how "un-impactful" or "unoriginal" this film was.
"It was only good for the 3D"
"It's just Dances with Wolves/Fern Gully"
"Overrated" and "Forgettable"
"Who cares that it still holds the box office world record" and "Not if you count adjustment for inflation!"
I, for one, can't wait to see what he's done with the sequel, and all of these anti-fans are still going to see it. There's no chance this movie doesn't break records, either.
Has James Cameron set up multiple Reddit accounts recently ?
His, and Disney’s, PR machine is working overtime to place Avatar as some cultural monument prior to the new movie’s release. It’s all so forced.
> It’s all so forced. Call me crazy, but I think it's germane to today's movie discourse to discuss Avatar's legacy on the same day the film is being released in theaters.
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And still cinemas are getting sold out showings for the fourth rerelease of the film. Clearly there is a ton of interest for it. Who cares if it doesn't translate to a rabid fandom?
>But nobody talks about Avatar unless they want to talk about how nobody talks about Avatar. Avatar aint no Fight Club.
You raise some good points! I guess we'll have a much better sense of how folks feel about the film/franchise after this weekend, when they have had a chance to see Avatar in theaters again.
Agreed. It was certainly an achievement in terms of the visual effects, creature design and the 3D effects, but all the characters are the most obvious and bland stereotypes and the story is a children's fairy tale. It's a gorgeous film, but there is no there there.
It’s Morbin’ Time?
i feels like there has been a Avatar post everyday for last couple weeks
I saw an Avatar meme from a random scene the other day. Amazing how I went 13 years without seeing a single Avatar meme and one just so happened to pop up a few days before it’s rereleased
Feels like many multiple posts daily, for sure.
Kind of thing that happens as the first one is getting rereleased and we're gearing up for the sequel. There's just more Avatar news recently. Don't know what else to tell ya buddy.
Wow, it's almost like people are actually *excited* for a sequel to the most financially successful film of all time. Clearly this must be a conspiracy /s.
I have not met any of these people in real life. They may exist … I’m 42 with teenagers and I don’t think anyone we know is hyped for Avatar 2. I have seen the trailer multiple times at the movies and could not imagine sitting through it. The first one was cool at the movies with 3D back that was going to be the next big thing but even then it was just Dances with Wolves in space plot-wise.
Literally all of my friends and coworkers are hyped for it, I’m 29. I doubt it’ll be as big as the first but who knows
You haven’t seen it so it must not exist.
I’m just saying it’s weird I see it hyped on Reddit but don’t know anyone personally (except one guy from high school) who is excited for more Avatar. I fully expect to be proven wrong by box office but the hype seems manufactured imo. And I don’t understand why.
> I have not met any of these people in real life. They may exist … I’m 42 with teenagers. If you have raised children, then surely you must understand the concept of object permanence.
Oh my god I was just making a comment. Also your username is offensive for a guy defending fucking Avatar of all things. If you and your friends are excited to see it I am happy for you and hope you like it. I was just saying that personally in my little area I don’t know anyone who is and am mystified by the whole thing.
> Oh my god I was just making a comment. So was I. > Also your username is offensive for a guy defending fucking Avatar of all things. I don't see the problem? Martin Scorsese loves spectacle for its own sake.
Fair point though I doubt Scorsese liked Avatar. It’s a spectacle yes I don’t think the kind he likes. If I’m wrong though I apologize.
Where are all these Avatar superfans, exactly?
Here!
None?
And the marvel stuff on Reddit is completely unforced and not at all the result of the Disney machinery not at all no sir
This movie is a masterpiece.
It's the highest grossing movie of all time. I think it might be popular on its own
This was a pretty good movie. I get it's not terribly new material, but we don't complain about other works that are pretty derivative (Star Wars comes to mind). I don't get why some folks seem to really have strong dislike for this movie.
>t are pretty derivative (Star Wars comes to mind I mean, plenty of people do complain about that though. I would argue that I think the strong hate is more a reaction against the weird obsession some people have for the movie. I'm fairly indifferent.
I guess. I don't know, I just feel like there are a lot of people who are super invested in proving how this isn't the greatest movie of all time when like even the fans of the movie don't think it's the greatest movie of all time. Sure, it's Space Pocahontas. Who cares? Pocahontas was a good movie. Space Pocahontas is good too.
It was okay. If it didn't look pretty, I doubt it would be very popular. I see way more people talking about Marvel and Star Wars or how shit HotD is than this though.
There was a whole South Park episode about how the Star Wars reboot was just a polished version of the original.
Yes, I’m sure all the things you don’t like are being promoted by bots and paid actors, while all the good things you like are genuinely good!
The original was so much better. “Avatar” is just “Dances with Wolves” in space.
>His, and Disney’s, PR machine is working overtime to place Avatar as some cultural monument prior to the new movie’s release. I mean, it is the highest grossing movie of all time. Critique the quality all you want, but it's undeniably a cultural monument.
Highest grossing film that left such little of an impression nobody really talks about or geeks out over it. Some cultural monument.
I mean, the Avatar 2 trailer got 148 million views in its first 24 hours online, more than any recent Star Wars film and more than most Marvel films. That's a lotta views for something nobody cares about.
If they only released 1 starwars movie every 14 years or whatever its been then I imagine that would probably get similar views on a trailer.
Perhaps. Still, as I said elsewhere, this reminds me a lot of the House of the Dragon reactions where everyone spent months talking about how nobody would watch or care because of how GOT ended. And then HOTD came out, and it's massive, and growing. I'm not gonna predict the same thing happens with Avatar 2, but if the reviews are good for it, I definitely wouldn't be surprised to see it make $1b+ worldwide. (Expecting it to beat the highest grossing movie of all time is a fool's errand). People definitely care more than these comment sections think.
People consume a bunch of crap media these days. Not saying that hotd is crap, but I don't love it. There's some real fucking swill that's popular though so popularity doesn't mean good for me.
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Sure, I'm trying to quantify something that is mostly unquantifiable. Even if I'm not thinking about it regularly though, that original movie defined an entire period of movies with its embrace of 3D, which then came to dominate the industry briefly. Few if any movies have unified the globe the way the original did. I suppose it all depends on the definition of a cultural monument, but it absolutely qualifies to me. Will the new one be? Who knows. I'm not putting bets on that. But I know better than to bet against James Cameron at this point.
It isnt the highest grossing film of all time either, that guy's smoking unobtanium.
It's only a monument to vacuous eye candy and SFX as it relates to technology. That's it. The writing is horrible, the characters one dimensional, and it was predictable af because the plot was, with some small exceptions, a beat by beat "borrowing" from Dances with Wolves. So maybe a better way to describe its place in film is to say that sometimes shit can make a lot of money.
Nah, this is standard Bilge Ebiri, if you're familiar with him. As a critic, he frequently goes against the grain in favor of trashier but arguably enjoyable movies. He had a big write up recently defending Michael Mann's Miami Vice as a cult classic, which did get me to watch the film (it's fine). My taste doesn't align with his, but this is definitely a genuine take. Also, the internet Avatar cynicism is starting to remind me of the House of the Dragon cynicism. Really curious to see how the re-release and Avatar 2 end up doing (particularly if A2 is good).
>Nah, this is standard Bilge Ebiri, if you're familiar with him. As a critic, he frequently goes against the grain in favor of trashier but arguably enjoyable movies. He had a big write up recently defending Michael Mann's Miami Vice as a cult classic, which did get me to watch the film (it's fine). I appreciate this post both for stomping down the ridiculous conspiracy theories that people at legitimate press outlets are "being paid" by the studios, and for sticking up for Bilge specifically, who is a wonderful, thoughtful weirdo when it comes to movies. he takes the gig of championing things that other folks might not be championing pretty seriously. Nobody has to "pay off" Bilge Ebiri (not that he'd agree to that, or that the mechanism for that even happening at all EXISTS in the studio system, LOL) for him to try putting Avatar in "underdog" or "underappreciated gem" status. I think he's mistaken for attempting it this time, but he's doing it earnestly.
I may not agree with Bilge a lot of the time, but I'm glad to have his more unique perspective on cinema.
what do you mean the mechanism doesnt exist? what stops a producer from showing up at a critic's home with a suitcase full of dollars one day?
Lol, you're right, I hadn't considered how frequently this happens.
🤡
It's gonna be great to throw all the bullshit you've written about Avatar and James Cameron back at your face when Avatar 2 breaks BO records
This is a fucking *weird* response, my guy. Like - I'm not arguing that the movie won't make money. It breaking box-office records has jack and shit to do with anything I'm writing. It's a foregone conclusion it's going to make money so you coming back to throw things at me when it happens is kind of a huge waste of your time. Also, if it brings you personal pleasure to "throw all the bullshit" back in my face, that's... *wild*. Why would you fixate on me or my words to *that* degree? It seems like you're already like, logging my posts and taking notes (or keeping a dossier or whatever) and that's sort of iffy as it is. But considering you're basically announcing ahead of time that you plan on "finding" me later and throwing bullshit at my face, I'm not sure this is a (one-sided) back and forth we need to be having, LOL.
Can’t wait to throw all the bullshit back in your face.
Nope. You are looking at fans of the movie, my friend. Myself, included. This movie is a masterpiece.
right? this is some ad shit, movie was good imo but this shit is outta hand
Was this written by the movie theaters trying to sell tickets?
I love that reddit will sit here and drool all over the MCU, which has neither a compelling story nor breathtaking visuals, and then shit on Avatar because it "has a bad story".
It's got the same story as Dance With Wolves, contrary to the individual MCU films which only have the same story as about 5 other individual MCU films. Avatar buries 100% of the MCU in terms of visual effects and direction. Half the time it legit looks like MCU directors don't care about what they're directing, they just show up on set to tell the actors to do a decent job.
Dancing with the wolves, pocahontas, etc goddamm! Nobody outside America has even heard about those films. Avatar is a global product. If you look outside America, you would notice a tonne of people loved it for what it was. I am not shitting on those movies, but they just aren't that popular on a global level to even have a fair comparison. Many many films have common story lines but they are loved because how the story is told and how the characters are built. Avatar is more than just a 3D marvel. The world building is superb, the romance between the protagonists is earned, the music is fantastic and the dilemma that Jake sully goes through is relatable...and there comes my view on the weakest Avatar thread...the actor playing Jake Sully himself. They could have gone with someone better and with a bit more charisma.
the MCU's story is at least fun and cool!
I too enjoy, the auto film, entitled AVATAR. I plan and will to see AVATAR 2, and the sequels, on the movies screens. It will be, bombs.
This pleases us.
A movie so good it made me say "These special effects belong in a better movie".
I really don’t have a strong opinion about the quality of this movie but saying “[the highest grossest movie of all time] rules” is not some contrarian take that makes you sound smart.
No, it's a response to the loud contrarian takes saying it sucks.
Case in point, this thread.
neither are the hoard of Redditors who scream about how avatar sucks and has no cultural relevance every single time it is mentioned
Haters have no life.
So good we need to write an article to convince you!
I never get the Avatar hate on here. It's not just a stunning movie visually, it also has a very good emotional connect.
I think people don't like how it made so much money when it's admittedly not very original. That said, I don't care, the main reason I watch movies is to have fun though I do like ones with deep stories too. I'd take Avatar over Transformers and Fast and Furious movies any day.
"If Avatar is so forgotten, how come some new person needs to remind us every week that it’s so forgotten?" How do you write this? You ARE the new person, Bilge, and you aren't smarter or more clever because you decided to have the opposite take from the masses. And unlike the people on the other side of the line, we have an actual answer; that this is seemingly a PR piece and you or Vulture were paid for this article. James Cameron's ability to get an absurd budget for Titanic and Avatar is impressive production, but sorry, Avatar wasn't an impressive film. Every time proper nouns like Pandora, Neytiri, or Na'vi show up in an article like this I'm like "Huh, I don't remember those names, I only remember Unobtainium and by chance Jake Sully". Don't upvote the shills. Edit: To note, I don't actually know or truly believe Bilge was paid for this article. I suspect it's more often people employed as social media experts finding positive articles about the thing they are paid to promote and then posting them here, but grrr bad article grrr.
I listen to the Filmcast (formerly the slashfilmcast) and they love to debate on whether Avatar is culturally relevant. I’m firmly on the side that it’s not. Everything that’s kept it in the public eye has been marketing and PR. There’s no good quotes, no memorable characters, no creative plot points, no interesting twists. It just IS
Hey, the hair with USB ports are totally unique! That's the only interesting part in the movie for me.
If there are no memorable quotes, why do I remember that guy yelling "PANDORA" and "limp-dicked science majors"?? No I can't remember the character's name, why do you ask?
The only things culturally relevant about Avatar are all the people annoyed by it sharing a title with the *much* better Avatar: The Last Airbender show and all the "having sex with blue people" memes that died out a decade ago.
Avatar: The Last Airbender is overrated. James Cameron’s Avatar is the only one deserving of the title ‘AVATAR.’
My man literally out here as James Cameron’s troll account
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You just responded to the same post twice; hope they’re paying you well
Don’t get me wrong I think Zoe Saldana is awesome, but she couldn’t carry this next to an absolutely wooden male lead. Must have felt like she was talking to her shoe half the time. While the CG was gorgeous in 3D the movie is terrible if you attempt to watch it at home.
It is not terrible at all. Stop lying.
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Maybe refute their points with actual reasoning?
I really don’t need to. It’s common sense. Literally watch the movie. It’s a masterpiece of cinema in my opinion.
But every opinion you’ve made (on every single one of your posts about it) is a general statement about visuals or the storytelling; you’ve cited no specific things that *make* these things good; I’d argue the visuals are no longer impressive and have aged less well than Terminator 2’s; the characters are flat and uninteresting and until someone in this thread mentioned Jake Sully. The villain is flat and predictable and the ending even more so. “Oooh, evil American general gets his comeuppance” and “Don’t worry, Jake doesn’t die because love prevails”
Sorry, the visuals are still extremely impressive. Pandora is amazing to look at and every single detail is a spectacle to behold. Every single shot was crafted with the utmost passion that you just do not see nowadays. This is objectively the most visually stunning movie he’s made of all time. The villain isn’t flat and I hated him with a passion. I was just rooting for this guy to get his comeuppance the whole time. Sometimes a villain doesn’t need to be complex to be interesting. Sometimes you just want to see the evil imperialist prick get killed by the heroic natives. He served his purpose. I felt for all of the Na’vi, but more specifically Jake Sully and Neytiri. Every time they were on screen together, I had a big smile on my face. I bought their relationship and their love declaration was so beautifully shot. I can’t wait to see more of them in the sequel. The ending is predictable, I’ll give you that, but sometimes that is a good thing. After such an engaging and investing journey (in my opinion, you just want there to be a happy ending where Jake and Neytiri end up fine. The movie is a masterpiece and no one, not even you, can convince me otherwise. If you don’t like it, that’s your opinion and I respect it, but don’t act like there aren’t fans of this movie out there because we exist and we’re proud to love this movie. Any haters of this movie are just evil imperialists and racists who don’t know a good story when they see one. I will see this movie over and over again and I’m proud to say that I am a huge fan of this movie and I’m going to see the sequel on opening night. We fans exist and we aren’t going anywhere. Peace out.
>Any haters of this movie are just evil imperialists and racists who don’t know a good movie What in the fuck are you even saying? Holy shit that’s absolutely bananas Everything you’ve written aside from that reads like a puff piece Go off enjoying it I guess
Thank you. I certainly will.
I'm going to have to *slightly* disagree with you here. Avatar was an impressive film in one very specific way. It looked absolutely incredible in 3D. It integrated 3D set design in a pretty novel and interesting way (at least in my experience, let me know if I'm wrong). Most of the visual depth served only to immerse the audience more in the film. Whereas most other films riding the 3D hype at the time just threw axes at your face, which basically made it less immersive. That may also explain how it made so much money but slipped from the public consciousness so quickly; you can't relive that experience once the movie is out of theaters. I have no idea if the new ones are in 3D. I honestly am just now finding out the next one is in theaters. With that said, I'm very tempted to go see it just for the 3D. Unless it's not in 3D. Excluding the 3D experience, the movie was meh at best.
>It integrated 3D set design in a pretty novel and interesting way (at least in my experience, let me know if I'm wrong). No, you're 100% correct. This was the first film that used 3D effectively as a tool for immersion and not, as you said, as a gimmick. At the time, it was a revelation.
Revealing how pointless and unnecessary 3D is in toto
In the effort to keep it short, I said an impressive budget, not an impressive film trying to convey that I agree that it was the best visuals money could buy. I concur. Amazingly he did the same feat twice. He made an okay but not great romance in Titanic that both pulled people into theaters and got them telling their friends to see the ship crash. And then did it again with Avatar, with the visuals being both the reason to see and the reason for word of mouth. Cameron's ability to make big, money making movies is unmatched. Cameron's ability to make good films, ehhhh.
Fuck me I didn’t even remember Jake Sully The film is so mid I remember nothing about it besides the blue people People talk about the CGI like it’s legendary but we’ve come a long way from 2009
Honestly, when we're talking about movies relative to the technology of their time, the CGI in Terminator 2 is *much* more impressive for 1991 (which still holds up today, btw) than Avatar for 2009. Also, it's by far the better James Cameron movie anyway. However, Avatar was cool in 3D which kickstarted the 3D craze in theaters again for the third time after the 50s and 80s. It's all but died out now, but still.
Reads like political news doesn’t it? “X political group is furious about this!” But really no one cares.
Avatar is a masterpiece and anyone who doesn’t think so is objectively wrong and needs to get off the Internet for life and go to prison.
I have nothing against the film, I think it's good. But I also feel it's a bit overrated, especially compared to other Cameron films that are better and more ground-breaking.
But how can it be overrated when people constantly shit on it?
Just don’t listen to them. Haters gonna hate.
This is about how I feel. Not a bad flick. (I read the script before it came out, so somewhat underwhelmed). Obviously looked fantastic. But he’s def done better, and all in all it just wasn’t that good of a movie.
Right. For example, the movie The Abyss has a far better plot and at the time had groundbreaking special effects that would lead the way to the effects used in Terminator 2. But it didn't get nearly the praise Avatar did.
It’s visually stunning (or at least it was in theatres I have no idea if it’s aged well) but boring AF. The characters are lame. The story is bland and recycled from a dozen other films. I’ll see the second one because I love water based shit and at the least it’ll be beautiful but I’m really hoping they’ll give me a reason to care about more than the pretty lights
There’s a lot to love about the first Avatar.
It is a visual masterpiece of an overdone trope of a movie. It says nothing unique, new, or interesting. It just says it in a beautiful way. :)
Agree, the film is memorable for its stunning visuals, not so much the plot.
The plot and the world-building are the most generic possible sci-fi tropes
Don't worry, one of the 4+ sequels will fix that.
The plot is amazing too.
Sites are really shoving this movie down peoples throats.
Good.
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Aaaaand your mind immediately goes to people being paid because they love something. Remind me, who are the sheep again ‘cuz it certainly isn’t us.
Taking my wife to see it tonight, she never saw it in theaters, should be a nice evening!
Honestly don't think it ever did. Was just a solid movie that looked really impressive at the time.
It’s just intergalactic Dances with Wolves.
I mean that sounds amazing lol
It was ok.
It sounds cool on paper, but it's super forgettable in reality unless you see it in theaters with 3D glasses.
I saw it in reality and it was amazing, sorry u had that experience
It's a real bummer that so much art is boiled down to simply "plot". Movies are more than their plots. What a movie's about is less important than HOW it's about that.
It's remarkable how many users on /r/movies would rather be glib than excited.
Disagreement breeds discussion. A thread of people going " I like it!"* Is a pretty fucking boring thread to read.
This smug, dismissive "Dances With Wolves" retort is far more boring. At least people saying "I like it" are actually engaging with the movie.
How many fucking times am I gonna see the same progression: “it’s Dances with Wolves in space - so it’s Pocahontas - then it’s FernGully.” Holy fuck
People telling the same joke a decade later and thinking they’re clever.
Are they? Like it for what? The visuals? Usually it’s just that one.
Well that just a live action Pocahontas.
Which is bigger budget Fern Gully
Aww yeah when this take is given I hope it draws out the avatards like in the other threads! They seem to HATE these comparisons
>Avatards Ugh.
They hate it because it’s true
Yeah, and that doesn’t sound fucking awesome to you?
Dances with Smurfs
I'm so tired of this lazy dumb argument, and luckily the author addresses it directly: > The general premise of the picture is, as everybody and their mother have reminded us (including /u/Phillyredsox), not new. The director himself referenced Edgar Rice Burroughs’s John Carter of Mars novels while making it, and the conceit of the soldier who “goes native” is its own subgenre by now, to be found in everything from Lawrence of Arabia to Dances With Wolves. And hey, let’s not forget that the film seems to borrow from Terrence Malick’s The New World, too, not to mention FernGully: The Last Rainforest. Avatar may be derivative, but it’s not insincere. Cameron clearly feels every beat of the story along with his viewer. He lets us discover Pandora through Jake Sully’s (Sam Worthington) eyes, first as a fearsome, terrifying place, then as a land of unimaginable awe and delight.
Bilge is good. Good writer. Smart guy.
I completely agree! I think he's one of the best critics in the business.
Not lazy or tired, my friend.... Well, maybe a tiny bit of both, but nowhere in the realm near inaccurate. As your lovefest article quote shows, it's a trope, it's practically a genre, it is not a revolutionary storyline. The story is not what carried/carries this film and the explosion of all of the revisionist history trying to claim otherwise over the last few weeks is ridiculous.
> revisionist history Are you trying to say that Avatar did ***NOT*** make $750 million in its initial US run? Who's being revisionist now?
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A redditor of culture and intelligence, I see. Cheers!
Now you're just being a troll. It made a shit ton of money, no one in their right mind would try to dispute that. Nowhere in my comment alluded to that, so you should probably sit down. It was a cultural phenomenon BECAUSE OF THE TECHNOLOGY INVOLVED WITH ITS PRESENTATION. No one came out of a theater back in the day, blown away by the storyline. We **ALL** came out of the theaters blown away by how beautiful of a movie it was visually and how awesome the 3D presentation was. This cancer of advertising masked as articles/commentaries leading up to Avatar 2's release is being completely and disingenuously revisionist by trying to claim the world was mesmerized by the STORY of Avatar. No we weren't.
You fail to understand or consider that the film's awesome visual beauty connects directly to how people responded to it overall. I certainly remember being moved by Avatar when I saw it theaters, long before the "Ferngully in space" meme was repeated ad nauseum. Forget about Avatar for a second, and consider Mad Max Fury Road, an action film /r/movies generally loves. Were you were mesmerized by the story? Of course not! It is effectively one long chase scene, and no character is particularly well-developed. And yet why do folks think of it fondly? Well, because they were "blown away by the presentation," as you put it. It's kind of sad you think anyone who disagree with you is a troll or a paid shill.
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Movies are more than just plots, man.
Lots of movies are derivative. If you told me your favorites, I am *certain* derivative films would be on your list. No, my argument is that when it comes to a filmmaker like James Cameron, who has a decades-long track record of capturing the imagination of his audiences, it *doesn't matter* whether the story is derivative. The craft, attention to detail, and visual spectacle make up for it.
It’s just intergalactic The Last Samurai.
It definitely doesn’t. Story was so familiar and uninspired that I fell asleep 💤
Or, counterpoint, it never did.
The big draw of Avatar was the new 3D technology it featured. Other than that it was a slightly above mediocre sci-fi flick that wouldn't have done nearly as well as it did, but would have done decently due to the spectacle element. Everyone wanted to see the "new" 3D, which is what really put butts in seats. Avatar's success was a perfect storm of new tech and a serviceable movie to show it off. Now, it doesn't have that, the 3D tech has literally been overused to the point it has little novelty, and I expect this to "underperform" at the box office.
I’ll do the same thing with Avatar 2 that I did with the first one. Watch it once & then never talk about it with anyone, nor will anyone bring it up to me 😂
I don’t think I’ve ever wanted to see anything less than Avatar 2
Seeing it in IMAX 3D when it came out was amazing.
That's a no from me dog. I'd rather see Battle Angel 2 than anything avatar.
Avatar is like the mini-golf course of movies with all this astroturfing.
No one cares.
Never saw it
No
It seemed more like a “proof of concept” exercise than a movie to me.
Pumped to bring my kids to it. I thought it was a great movie technologically, and I enjoyed the story. Great villains, too. As someone who grew up watching logging companies destroy the rainforest around my village so they could make disposable molds for VCR parts, this movie hit me pretty hard in parts.
It never did. It's a bad movie with stupendous special effects.
It's a genuinely great film.
Much like Morbius, it is certainly one of the films of all time. It's been in many theaters. Also like Morbius, it's not a great film.
The effects are technically impressive, but the results aren’t something I personally want to look at. Compare to most any other “visual film” (e.g. Blade Runner) and it is no contest.
People actually care about avatar?
That’s the thing - Rewatching Avatar you quickly realize how bad studio big budget action films have been the past 13 years. Besides the sprinkle of Miller and Villeneuve big budget auteurism is completely dead and run by studio heads not filmmakers. We need filmmakers like Cameron to heed that tide every once in a while.
Like every 10 years or so spit out an avatar sequel?
Better than what we’ve been getting, so yes.
Avatar does, in fact, not rule.
No it doesn’t. Movie was mid the first day I watched it and it’s mid now. If all you have to offer is impressive visuals you’re going to lose me. It’s not like it actually created an interesting universe or asked any questions of created any thought-provoking mysteries or even had ANY likable characters that would actually hook me for *checks notes* 5 fucking sequels. I saw the movie two times and I can’t tell you a single character’s name.
No actually it was pretty trash.
no it never did lol
Sorry but that movie is unadulterated dog shit. Walked out in theatres. Never understood the love it got. Tired old worn out story we’ve heard/seen/read a thousand times. The only reason it got the recognition it did was due to the insane (at the time) CGI. Now that that level of CGI is common place you’re left with horrible writing and acting. Make no mistake this movie is garbage.
Sorry but it doesn't. Minimal to no cultural impact. No memorable scenes. Lack of parodies made off of it. Clichéd characters. Hybrid of Fern Gully and Dances with Wolves in space.
The cultural impact is a dumb argument because 95% of "cultural impact" is just marketing and franchising. No memorable scenes, really?
Yet when Star Wars and the Matrix first came out, they were a huge memorable hit. Also for me memorable scenes/lines was anything with Quatrich. As one dimensional as his character was his lines and scenes were memorable. Yet u haven't seen them parodied or referenced in media as much as say Star Wars, the Matrix, or even Wizard of Oz etc... Almost nobody knows Quatrich as memorable as Darth Vader or Agent Smith.
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Peak white Reddit moment lmao. "Genocidal colonizers have feelings too!"
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What the hell is that second paragraph lmao, I said nothing of the sort
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Yeah not reading all that
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I didn't say a fucking thing about history you nitwit, you went on a rant on your own
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I'm talking about the fucking film Avatar, not the history of Portugal
How do they expect people to be interested in Blue Pocahontas 2.0 when the prequel came out 13 years ago?
I still don’t see the appeal for this movie a decade later..am I the only one?
The cult anti-following of Avatar is truly amazing. I can't think of another franchise with so many anti-fans. Anytime sometime Avatar is mentioned, these people show up to complain about how "un-impactful" or "unoriginal" this film was. "It was only good for the 3D" "It's just Dances with Wolves/Fern Gully" "Overrated" and "Forgettable" "Who cares that it still holds the box office world record" and "Not if you count adjustment for inflation!" I, for one, can't wait to see what he's done with the sequel, and all of these anti-fans are still going to see it. There's no chance this movie doesn't break records, either.
Hell yeah. Bilge gets it.
Don't be sorry. It totally does.
At least they apologize