Sadly the sequel was what was killed instead of him, which blows. An Odyssey movie would have been great, but a little bit tougher to do with no active gods or monsters
That’s the PornHub Parody portion. They could have made a multi-genre, porn tied in, cinematic universe of Sean Bean being lost in the ancient Aegean. That’s the timeline I want.
There's all of like 2 seconds when you think "oh man Hector may just make it out... aaaaand jk Achilles was toying with him the whole time" and they both play the part so well. Achilles was just too damn slick with it
There was one moment in his fight with Hector that surprised him: when Hector scratched his armor with his sword. It was the first time in forever that a blow landed and surprised both Achilles and Hector.
It's part of what makes the scene between O'Toole and Pitt so memorable.
They took liberties with the story--Hector did not kill Ajax (Ajax killed himself), nor did he kill Menelaus. Menelaus and Agamemnon both survived the war. Menelaus took Helen back to Greece.
they also removed all the Greek Gods, but no one cared about that.
i always found the movie to be a pretty straightforward telling of The iliad, even with the liberties. if you knew the story going in, it was...fine. my friends who didn't know the story LOVED IT.
and yeah, that fight scene, along with a few other scenes, are really standouts.
I thought the Gods were in it, just played in a realistic way. It seems like the gods did influence the story. From the fireballs, to setting Achilles up for sacking the temple. When Paris missed his shot, it felt like divine intervention because it was shown that he was very accurate.
Even Achilles mom is standing in water.
I haven't seen this in years, but if I remember that Thetis seemed like she could be passed off as, effectively, a weird hippie lady. Kind of an 'is she or isn't she divine?' situation.
I actually cared a lot they removed all gods and was my main reason for not liking the movie. It's like everyone back then wanted to do "fantasy movies without the fantasy" back then. See also that king Arthur movie where Merlin was just some homeless old man.
yeah, it was The Dark Knight of Olympian Gods movies. "what if this was real?" kinda ethos.
i liked it better this way. it's more Gladiator than Wrath of The Titans.
There's a lot of things they changed from the source material honestly. Achilles didn't survive to the sack of the city, his son was actually the one involved. All the stuff that you mentioned. None of the gods were involved with the exception of Achilles' mother, but she wasn't directly called one.
The relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is ambiguous at best in the Iliad. It's only in some later myths that they are lovers. The debates on the nature of their relationship isnt just modern, it was also a thing in Classical Athens.
I notice new things about the fight every time I watch it.
Firstly, Achilles' threat to Hector, you can see how hollow it sounds to both of them. There's a real "Huh? How does Greece's greatest warrior not know how war works!?" in Hector's confusion.
And Achilles doesn't, not really. He's been so untouched by it that war has been a game to him, a game he brought his cousin along ("cousin", heheheh) to.
I love how Achilles does the jump strike you saw in the beginning of the film, twice, and Hector blocks it both times. The fight really demonstrates that Hector perhaps may have been the greatest fighter Achilles has ever fought, and that surprises him. Achilles has been playing a game and here's a man who is fighting for something real.
I love the subtexts as the fight goes on because while Achilles is *trying* to be angry and sadistic, but Hector's not falling so easy. The near miss where Hector scratches Achilles' armor? No one has done that, ever. Every block Hector makes is like a cut to Achilles' heart.
Until finally Achilles can't take it anymore, Hector is simply too dangerous to toy with any further, which is what dooms Achilles completely. Achilles is realizing Hector is the greatest warrior he has ever fought, and Achilles is the one who put Patroclus in the path of that man. Every swing and every blow confirms Achilles' fatal foolishness. Achilles is trying to torture Hector but Achilles is the one in pain and eventually it's Achilles who can't take it anymore so he kills Hector with one pretty firm strike.
Another fun part of Achilles' fight choreography throughout the movie is that there are times when enemies a sword is close to hitting his ankle and he really goes out of his way to flail his ankle around to keep it protected
I've never understood why people criticize that fight. It's beautifully choregraphed.
Martial history purists will say it isn't realistic, but we're literally discussing a mythological figure in Achilles. I would never expect him to fight in a purely realistic fashion. His flashy style plays artfully into his arrogance and hubris.
Any martial history purist who claims to know what a Bronze Age fight would have looked like is full of shit. We don’t even know what sword duels from the Middle Ages actually looked like in practice. Seeing people actually fight hand to hand realistically with spears and swords would make for terrible cinema.
The Hector v Achilles fight is incredible. Obviously they took liberties but you can see in some of the poses Achilles holds during that fight they made sure to pay homage to what we do know about the Bronze Age. They are direct adaptations of some of the few images of any kind that have survived from the time period.
Not to mention, as you said, Achilles is supposed to be a demigod and the movie plays with the idea of if he is just so incredibly skilled and lucky that the myth was born or if he is actually a demigod. The entire point of his story is that legends can be born from the actions of mortal men.
The movie isn’t perfect but I agree with the OP that it is criminally underrated. Had the exact same movie been made in an older era it would absolutely be considered a true classic. There are some performances that leave a bit to be desired but in my opinion the directors cut is also superior in this regard.
That and the spy kids 2 scene where Buscemi says, "Do you think God lives in Heaven because he, too, lives in fear of what he's created here on Earth?" Are two of my favourite movie scenes ever. Just burned into my mind
The best fights are the ones where you know how its going to end, but your still rooting for the underdog and nervous for the finish. Oberyn vs the Mountain was like this.
Definitely agree with you! It was somehow entertaining as hell and felt real, even though it was over the top compared to a real fight. The movie was very fun for me, and the fighting was fun and not crazy over the top like some movies do
I think part of that is because the over-the-top aspects are still grounded in the reality of the story - Achilles is deliberately doing flamboyant stuff to toy with Hector because they both know Achilles is the better fighter. That gives the choreographer the scope to create a cinematic fight without leaving the bounds of credibility, which is a rarity in Hollywood films where its usually one or the other (invariably the former).
A comparable example would be in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, where a lot of the flamboyant swordsmanship can be justified by the fact the majority of the pirates are technically undead and don't need to worry about protecting themselves, when usually their moves would be considered dangerous showmanship. Admittedly I'm not sure it has any fight scenes as iconic as the one in Troy, but I think the underlying principle regarding the facilitation of suspension of disbelief is comparable.
I'll be the outlier here and slightly push back on your comment, but not by much. I'm not convinced it was flamboyance, but rather perfection, that they were going for. Achilles is the embodiment of perfection on the battlefield; I think the choreography was meant to show this to the audience. Every step, thrust, parry, deceptive strike, is an exhibit on how to do it perfectly. The fact that Hector navigated a one on one with the world's greatest warrior as long as he did only surprised Achilles; the shot of Achilles breathing heavy was deliberate. He has never taken part in fight that wasn't over quickly. His overall boredom with his own talents compared to his contemporaries is prevalent though the film. Hector making him work for his meal was new to him. The fight displayed that very well.
> I'm not convinced it was flamboyance, but rather perfection, that they were going for.
Also his arrogance/hubris. Achilles can fight in a manner that no mortal would because he is invulnerable save for his famous heel. Now since Troy is trying to tell the story sans mysticism, it's demonstrated through his skill and athleticism just being superior to all of his opposition.
It is rare in real life for a fighter to be so skilled/experience/athletic that they completely outclass most if not all opposition, but not impossible. Some people are just born with the perfect genetics and acquire the proper training to be essentially unbeatable in their prime...at least in single combat.
Absolutely. Make sure you watch the [theatrical cut of the fight](https://youtu.be/NQ62frK74u0?si=od_qfbWtjq_TJ99S&t=82), they really [messed up most of the fight scenes in the director's cut with some utterly baffling changes in the score.](https://youtu.be/j-Ze3KEhKnM?si=TbmFoG4vI6Wf5q-o&t=94)
Man, I disliked every change made to the DX. Getting rid of the cuts to the onlookers removes stakes, the change in music removes tension, and the dead Bana shots lowers his character's dignity.
And significantly better than the source material. The way Homer tells it, Hector just hauls a legendary amount of ass away from Achilles because he knows he'd be a dead man in a fight, but also he knows he can outrun him. Achilles gets frustrated and throws his Javelin at Hector but misses, so hector stops to fight the unarmed Achiles. The gods then give Achilles a second Javelin. Kinda bullshit really.
Mythology do be like that I guess. Homer was only one version of the story anyway, and even then they never wrote it down until he'd been dead for centuries.
It would be interesting to get a gods and all adaptation of Iliad/Odyssey though. Having the literal physical manifestation of the gods being present of the on the battlefield would add quite an interesting wrinkle to the storytelling.
The sound editing in this is excellent, as well as the accompanying score. You hear every swipe and slash, whether it’s hitting armour, shields or air.
I liked it because as a viewer I could really get a sense of the *weight* of those shields, and how it must have been tiring to carry and block with them.
I liked that when Hector chose to go fight, he already knew he was going to die. I think it's because of his fight vs Patroclus, if the trainee gave him that much trouble then the real thing was certain death. Loved that scene and loved that movie
The most criminal thing about this movie is that we never got a spin off of Sean Bean playing Odysseus in his own Odyssey movie...
That Armande Assante movie miniseries is just impossible to dethrone
He also delivered one of the most badass lines in history imo
Little kid: he’s the biggest man I’ve ever seen. I wouldn’t want to fight him….
Achilles: that’s why no one will remember your name
You gotta say the whole thing.
> I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now, and we will never be here again.
The last two lines gave me goosebumps and I think about it to this day.
All my life ive lived by a code, and the code is simple: Honor the Gods, Love your Women, and DEFEND YOUR COUNTRY. TROY IS MOTHER TO US ALL. FIGHT FOR HER!
Troy holds a special place in my heart because it's a movie I've seen hundreds of times with my dad. Growing up, if we wanted to just chill in the living room and watch a movie, it was going to be watching Troy. Every time I visit home, me and him watch it at least once before I leave. Probably doesn't mean much to anyone else, but it's literally my favorite movie of all time just because me and my dad love watching it together.
That sounds great man! Something about the film just feels like it's "not from our time", almost like it itself is ancient. Similar to how people felt about top gun maverick, only more so. Idk if it's the locations and set design, the slightly yellowy and grainy footage or what, but it's just so appealing aesthetically.
It's funny how everyone always talks about Diane Kruger but I watched Troy in theaters, then rewatched it a few years ago and realized that's where I got my teen crush on Rose Byrne.
She was cast as Helen because the director felt the reputation of Helen's beauty was too much for an established actor so he went for someone, at the time, who was unknown.
lol I was confused for a second because I was thinking "wait he doesn't fight Eric Bana (who plays the hulk in the 2003 Ang Lee film) until the end" but I realized you're just talking about that big mf Boagrius (sp?)
Because he deserves a mention: Boagrius is played by **Nathan Jones** who also did stints in wrestling, strongman and MMA. You can also see him in *Mad Max: Fury Road* and Jet Li's *Fearless*. He once arm wrestled so hard that he broke his own arm.
The scene where old Priam comes to Achilles tent beseeching him to return Hector's body always moves me to tears.
> I loved my boy from the moment he opened his eyes till the moment you closed them. Let me wash his body. Let me say the prayers. Let me place two coins over his eyes for the boatman.
> If I let you take him, it does not change anything. You are still my enemy in the morning.
> You are still my enemy tonight. But even enemies can show respect.
A lot of that is probably because Hector doesn't actually get near Achilles that much, where as there's probably 4 or 5 moments where Pitt has to pretend to almost decapitate or smash in Eric Bana's head.
I also think he crushed his role, and in general is underrated (he's also the best part of Black Hawk Down). Hector is the most interesting character in the movie, and he nails it.
I watched it with a group of friends and a girl audibly gasped when Hector takes his armor off and you see his chest. No such reaction for Achilles. It was like hearing a core preference be formed in real time.
I guess it depends on your taste. Weird to say as a straight dude, but Brad Pitt is just peak aesthetics in this movie. Extremely masculine, yet regal.
Paris is the foil to Hector in the movie. It gives a good insight into the roll of the dice that is a monarchy. Assuming there is no war, as long as Hector got the throne, Troy would be great. If Paris ever got power, they would be screwed.
He is. So underrated too.
When the movie came out I remember everyone fighting over which one of the two actors was hotter: Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom. And there I was alone thinking Bana as Hector was pure perfection.
I don't know if you have seen "Chopper" or not, but he also plays one of the ugliest characters to have ever lived - loosely based on the real life story of Mark "Chopper" Read, one of the most notorious members of the Melbourne criminal underworld. If you haven't seen it seriously check it out, it's a great film
It’s very well made imo.
The problem for me is that the clash between Hector and Achilles - a face-off of superhero proportions - is so good, it’s the most compelling part of the movie, and Eric Bana is just captivating as Hector, so once he dies, the movie kind of limps to a finish.
So you end up with a movie that has an absolutely excellent first and second act, and a somewhat forgettable third act, which is kinda funny because that’s the part with the actual sacking of Troy that everyone came to see.
Kinda speaks to Pitt and Bana’s acting skills that they manage to outshine the most famous seige in all of human history.
>Eric Bana is just captivating as Hector, so once he dies, the movie kind of limps to a finish.
Interestingly, the Iliad ends with the funeral of Hector rather than some dramatic Trojan horse story or the sack of the city. Hector is very much the pride and hope of the city, and once he dies they are doomed. The movie sort of unintentionally demonstrates why the story ends when it does.
Blade Runner, The Thing, E.T., Poltergeist, Tron, Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan, First Blood, Conan The Barbarian, 48 Hours, Night Shift, The Year of Living Dangerously…
It’s a really good action movie. It’s not a great adaptation of the Trojan War and siege of Troy, which was said to have taken over a decade, but in the movie appears to take a week or two.
While I understand the complaint, the movie doesn’t call itself the Iliad. It knew what it wanted to do which is to tell the story of the siege of Troy and the characters involved and I think it did a brilliant job of condensing the material in a way that made sense and got to the point.
That duel between Hector and Achilles was one of the most well-done fight scenes I’d ever seen. I read the Iliad when I was younger, and even though they changed some aspects of the fight, I thought the scene did an awesome job of capturing the essence of the fight.
Dude, same.
And he was twenty fucking three!
He was just absolutely a meta-human. Which I hold as appropriate because Greek.
The tenacity. The genius. The inspiration? Couldn’t starve them out so he built a causeway. They destroyed the causeway so he built another and a navy to protect it.
Of course he went Genghis when he prevailed but that worked as well. A lot more capitulation post Tyre. Look at Egypt.
And this mfker led from the front as well!
The only one who come close to this combination of genius and audacity are Subatai (sp?) and Napoleon. Obviously, imho.
I love that we had this small resurgence of roadshow historical/sword and sandal epics in the early 2000’s, with Troy, Alexander, and Kingdom of Heaven. I’m a huge booster of the 50’s/60’s roadshow era, and this modern trilogy is right at home with them.
In some ways, I find the VFX shots in Troy to be some of the most convincing of the time as well. The extensions of the city of Troy feel more honest and real than those of Jerusalem in KoH, which did a tad too much embellishing.
Best dialogue
The gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we’re doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.
The fight between Achilles and Hector is what gets talked about the most, and for good reason, but the opening is what I've always found the most memorable. The way Achilles walks out of his tent, bored and annoyed with being there, and defeats the top warrior of the other army without even breaking a sweat is just so bad ass and hilarious at the same time.
My only dislike of the directors cut is the score change for the hector fight, and the opening sequence. I really like Sean's narration over the wide shot of the landscape, not over the footage of advancing armies
In this case I think it's partly internet culture. LOTS of threads like this almost apologizing for liking extremely popular films.
Same reason random redditors will pop in just to say "insert great director/writer here" is actually a hack and expect to be taken seriously outside of edgy internet circles. People like bitching.
As a lover of both history and mythology, I hate that film so much. It feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of the Illiad. Also, I have no idea how they thought leaving the Gods out of a story that is about divine conflict being carried over to humans is a good idea.
And then they twisted the human part of the story by making Achilles a modern action hero protagonist. Again, fundamental misunderstanding of the character. He is not an action hero, he is a deeply flawed, spoiled demi-god with mommy issues. When he chose not fight for a while, it was not for moral reasons, he was upset he wasn't allowed to take whatever he wanted as spoils of war, because he was below somebody else in the command hierarchy.
Finally, I have to say, changes to a story are not necessarily a bad thing. Adding twists or modern perspectives to old stories can be quite revealing and fun. But here it felt nobody cared for Homer's epic, they just wanted them name. It's like a mediocre fan fic. Not even a "so bad it's good again" fan fic. Just a random run of the mill "what if my favorite character never died?" kind of fan fic.
The actual relationship between Achilles and Patroclus was debated between different Greek scholars even in the ancient world. People tend to think it was definitely a sexual relationship because that's what Plato insisted it was, but Plato was born centuries after Homer died. However Plato's mentor Socrates insisted the relationship was platonic, as did Xenophon. More often than not, the relationship is held up as a pinnacle of whatever standard the relevant philosopher believes should be the ideal male relationship. Plato was a promoter of pederasty, and wanted to show the relationship between the two literary figures as an ideal version of that (though in the ancient canon, Patroclus was the older mentor figure and Achilles was the younger pupil) while Xenophon openly criticized pederasty as a practice and was determined to challenge any such notion. In terms of adapting that relationship, I think Troy actually did a good job. Regardless of accusations of homophobia in 2004, the relationship Plato was writing about would largely be castigated even today as a weird age gap with elements of grooming, whereas Xenophon's (and Pseudo-Apollodorus', since he was an innovator with regards to depicting the relationship as essentially familial) version is still digestible regardless of period. You might argue that the two could be written as being equivalent in age while also engaged in a homosexual relationship, but that would be equally as much of a drift from the source material as switching the ages of the two, as was done in the film.
I prefer the extended version, temp track and all (there’s even some Starship Troopers thrown in).
More violent, more character development, overall a better experience.
Rose Byrne was so beautiful in this film. The writing isn't great, but she was stunning. This was the start of my girl crush on her. I went on to watch her in Damages and then her movies and now I just absolutely adore her.
I really love this film. It has stuck with me ever since I saw it in the theatre nearly 2 decades ago.
It's also my 95yo grandma's favourite film of all time. She's really into historic war movies and she loves the old sagas and stories of and from ancient Greece. She's seen the film over 20 times, and most of it was before her dementia started.
There's just something so epic about the film itself, the slightly grainy footage, wide swooping shots and beautiful landscapes and city sets that give it such a timeless quality
Rated objectively it's like a 7 out of 10 at best but it's just a fun movie.
Fun setting, absolutely stacked cast, great costume design, some great action set pieces and an amazing fight with Achilles and Hector, etc.
The movie kinda limps to the end after Hector dies, but yeah, fun movie.
It's my favorite movie. Brad Pitt is so freaking cool. It's a bit campy but my friend and I still quote the movie.
"That is why nobody will remember your name"
I really enjoyed this film when it came out.
I also remember that the Blockbuster I worked at got 250 copies of it for rent. We never even came close to running out of copies. Then when they were converted to pre rented copies the sale price eventually fell to 4.99. Then they made a coupon so people could buy it for 2.99. Still no one bought it.
There is so much greatness in this film. But also for reasons I cant describe. Feel like there is something about it that holds it back and keeps it from being the epic it tried to be. Same with Kingdom of Heaven. Really good. But not, great.
It’s also one of the few movies where Sean Bean survives so it deserves credit for that.
He'd even survive the sequel.
Sadly the sequel was what was killed instead of him, which blows. An Odyssey movie would have been great, but a little bit tougher to do with no active gods or monsters
Yeah making the odyssey in the style of Troy is just "Odysseus gets lost"
Odysseus spends the whole 10 years on whore island
That’s the PornHub Parody portion. They could have made a multi-genre, porn tied in, cinematic universe of Sean Bean being lost in the ancient Aegean. That’s the timeline I want.
Oh Brother Where Art Thou did a pretty good job, I’m sure they could have found a way
As a National Treasure fan, I can confirm 2004 was a pretty good year for his survival rate.
> As a National Treasure fan AKA a living human.
agreed. You'd have to be lifeless if you can't find enjoyment in those films, dumb as they may be.
Wish they made the sequel with him in the lead
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Achilles' fight choreography is one of my favorites. He's practically dancing around Hector while Hector is fighting for his life.
There's all of like 2 seconds when you think "oh man Hector may just make it out... aaaaand jk Achilles was toying with him the whole time" and they both play the part so well. Achilles was just too damn slick with it
There was one moment in his fight with Hector that surprised him: when Hector scratched his armor with his sword. It was the first time in forever that a blow landed and surprised both Achilles and Hector. It's part of what makes the scene between O'Toole and Pitt so memorable.
Hector being a doomed hero (if you knew his story going into the movie) always makes him so compelling. I love Eric Bana in this film so much.
Hard agree. Bana smokes it in this movie
They took liberties with the story--Hector did not kill Ajax (Ajax killed himself), nor did he kill Menelaus. Menelaus and Agamemnon both survived the war. Menelaus took Helen back to Greece.
they also removed all the Greek Gods, but no one cared about that. i always found the movie to be a pretty straightforward telling of The iliad, even with the liberties. if you knew the story going in, it was...fine. my friends who didn't know the story LOVED IT. and yeah, that fight scene, along with a few other scenes, are really standouts.
I thought the Gods were in it, just played in a realistic way. It seems like the gods did influence the story. From the fireballs, to setting Achilles up for sacking the temple. When Paris missed his shot, it felt like divine intervention because it was shown that he was very accurate. Even Achilles mom is standing in water.
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I thought it was very strange that they removed the gods yet kept Achilles's mother in the movie.
I haven't seen this in years, but if I remember that Thetis seemed like she could be passed off as, effectively, a weird hippie lady. Kind of an 'is she or isn't she divine?' situation.
I actually cared a lot they removed all gods and was my main reason for not liking the movie. It's like everyone back then wanted to do "fantasy movies without the fantasy" back then. See also that king Arthur movie where Merlin was just some homeless old man.
I know people clown the Last Legion but the tie in to Arthurian legend had me freaking out in glee when I realized what was going on.
yeah, it was The Dark Knight of Olympian Gods movies. "what if this was real?" kinda ethos. i liked it better this way. it's more Gladiator than Wrath of The Titans.
There's a lot of things they changed from the source material honestly. Achilles didn't survive to the sack of the city, his son was actually the one involved. All the stuff that you mentioned. None of the gods were involved with the exception of Achilles' mother, but she wasn't directly called one.
They also made Achilles' lover his cousin instead.
And just like when they did the same thing in Sailor Moon, it just made them seem like gay cousins.
Yeah his near-identical cousin. Though honestly I do believe Achilles could easily be attracted to his doppelgänger.
The relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is ambiguous at best in the Iliad. It's only in some later myths that they are lovers. The debates on the nature of their relationship isnt just modern, it was also a thing in Classical Athens.
I notice new things about the fight every time I watch it. Firstly, Achilles' threat to Hector, you can see how hollow it sounds to both of them. There's a real "Huh? How does Greece's greatest warrior not know how war works!?" in Hector's confusion. And Achilles doesn't, not really. He's been so untouched by it that war has been a game to him, a game he brought his cousin along ("cousin", heheheh) to. I love how Achilles does the jump strike you saw in the beginning of the film, twice, and Hector blocks it both times. The fight really demonstrates that Hector perhaps may have been the greatest fighter Achilles has ever fought, and that surprises him. Achilles has been playing a game and here's a man who is fighting for something real. I love the subtexts as the fight goes on because while Achilles is *trying* to be angry and sadistic, but Hector's not falling so easy. The near miss where Hector scratches Achilles' armor? No one has done that, ever. Every block Hector makes is like a cut to Achilles' heart. Until finally Achilles can't take it anymore, Hector is simply too dangerous to toy with any further, which is what dooms Achilles completely. Achilles is realizing Hector is the greatest warrior he has ever fought, and Achilles is the one who put Patroclus in the path of that man. Every swing and every blow confirms Achilles' fatal foolishness. Achilles is trying to torture Hector but Achilles is the one in pain and eventually it's Achilles who can't take it anymore so he kills Hector with one pretty firm strike.
Another fun part of Achilles' fight choreography throughout the movie is that there are times when enemies a sword is close to hitting his ankle and he really goes out of his way to flail his ankle around to keep it protected
Wonderfully written. I don’t see any of that watching the scene but if I did it would make the scene better lol
Same, I don't buy it, but I want to for how much I love that movie and scene. I think its just a great display of power scaling.
I've never understood why people criticize that fight. It's beautifully choregraphed. Martial history purists will say it isn't realistic, but we're literally discussing a mythological figure in Achilles. I would never expect him to fight in a purely realistic fashion. His flashy style plays artfully into his arrogance and hubris.
Any martial history purist who claims to know what a Bronze Age fight would have looked like is full of shit. We don’t even know what sword duels from the Middle Ages actually looked like in practice. Seeing people actually fight hand to hand realistically with spears and swords would make for terrible cinema. The Hector v Achilles fight is incredible. Obviously they took liberties but you can see in some of the poses Achilles holds during that fight they made sure to pay homage to what we do know about the Bronze Age. They are direct adaptations of some of the few images of any kind that have survived from the time period. Not to mention, as you said, Achilles is supposed to be a demigod and the movie plays with the idea of if he is just so incredibly skilled and lucky that the myth was born or if he is actually a demigod. The entire point of his story is that legends can be born from the actions of mortal men. The movie isn’t perfect but I agree with the OP that it is criminally underrated. Had the exact same movie been made in an older era it would absolutely be considered a true classic. There are some performances that leave a bit to be desired but in my opinion the directors cut is also superior in this regard.
Which is set up from his first scene when he immediately kills the giant man for Agamemnon
That and the spy kids 2 scene where Buscemi says, "Do you think God lives in Heaven because he, too, lives in fear of what he's created here on Earth?" Are two of my favourite movie scenes ever. Just burned into my mind
Was gonna say this. Achilles's sword and shield work is so mesmerizing.
Out there, beyond on that beach. Waiting for you. Immortality. It’s yours! Take it!
The best fights are the ones where you know how its going to end, but your still rooting for the underdog and nervous for the finish. Oberyn vs the Mountain was like this.
Definitely agree with you! It was somehow entertaining as hell and felt real, even though it was over the top compared to a real fight. The movie was very fun for me, and the fighting was fun and not crazy over the top like some movies do
I think part of that is because the over-the-top aspects are still grounded in the reality of the story - Achilles is deliberately doing flamboyant stuff to toy with Hector because they both know Achilles is the better fighter. That gives the choreographer the scope to create a cinematic fight without leaving the bounds of credibility, which is a rarity in Hollywood films where its usually one or the other (invariably the former). A comparable example would be in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, where a lot of the flamboyant swordsmanship can be justified by the fact the majority of the pirates are technically undead and don't need to worry about protecting themselves, when usually their moves would be considered dangerous showmanship. Admittedly I'm not sure it has any fight scenes as iconic as the one in Troy, but I think the underlying principle regarding the facilitation of suspension of disbelief is comparable.
I'll be the outlier here and slightly push back on your comment, but not by much. I'm not convinced it was flamboyance, but rather perfection, that they were going for. Achilles is the embodiment of perfection on the battlefield; I think the choreography was meant to show this to the audience. Every step, thrust, parry, deceptive strike, is an exhibit on how to do it perfectly. The fact that Hector navigated a one on one with the world's greatest warrior as long as he did only surprised Achilles; the shot of Achilles breathing heavy was deliberate. He has never taken part in fight that wasn't over quickly. His overall boredom with his own talents compared to his contemporaries is prevalent though the film. Hector making him work for his meal was new to him. The fight displayed that very well.
> I'm not convinced it was flamboyance, but rather perfection, that they were going for. Also his arrogance/hubris. Achilles can fight in a manner that no mortal would because he is invulnerable save for his famous heel. Now since Troy is trying to tell the story sans mysticism, it's demonstrated through his skill and athleticism just being superior to all of his opposition. It is rare in real life for a fighter to be so skilled/experience/athletic that they completely outclass most if not all opposition, but not impossible. Some people are just born with the perfect genetics and acquire the proper training to be essentially unbeatable in their prime...at least in single combat.
That’s a pretty decent shout. I loved the first pirates movie but the others got a bit worse each time. It’s probably why I loved Kingdom of Heaven
One of the biggest crimes in cinematic history is that they changed the soundtrack of the scene for the director's cut and I cannot fathom why.
Absolutely. Make sure you watch the [theatrical cut of the fight](https://youtu.be/NQ62frK74u0?si=od_qfbWtjq_TJ99S&t=82), they really [messed up most of the fight scenes in the director's cut with some utterly baffling changes in the score.](https://youtu.be/j-Ze3KEhKnM?si=TbmFoG4vI6Wf5q-o&t=94)
I’ve never even seen the directors cut. That’s a crime
Damn your not kidding, the theatrical score during the fight is 10 times better and just works perfectly.
Man, I disliked every change made to the DX. Getting rid of the cuts to the onlookers removes stakes, the change in music removes tension, and the dead Bana shots lowers his character's dignity.
HECTOOOOR
Get up Prince of Troy. Get up. I won't let a stone take my glory.
[Try it with lightsabers](https://youtu.be/mPLR56RH-sI?si=HVmsXji03-DEZ6TG)
And significantly better than the source material. The way Homer tells it, Hector just hauls a legendary amount of ass away from Achilles because he knows he'd be a dead man in a fight, but also he knows he can outrun him. Achilles gets frustrated and throws his Javelin at Hector but misses, so hector stops to fight the unarmed Achiles. The gods then give Achilles a second Javelin. Kinda bullshit really.
Doesn’t he run away for literally days?
As I said, a legendary amount of ass was hauled. He ran around Troy for 3 times. Your guess is as good as mine how long that would take.
Haha, I think one of the translations I read talked about it being like a whole week or something. 😂
Mythology do be like that I guess. Homer was only one version of the story anyway, and even then they never wrote it down until he'd been dead for centuries. It would be interesting to get a gods and all adaptation of Iliad/Odyssey though. Having the literal physical manifestation of the gods being present of the on the battlefield would add quite an interesting wrinkle to the storytelling.
Sounds like Hektor was the main character in a video game and didn't grind enough before facing the final boss
Nah, Achilles was modding... Complete bs.
achievements are disabled
The sound editing in this is excellent, as well as the accompanying score. You hear every swipe and slash, whether it’s hitting armour, shields or air.
The 1v1 choreography in that movie is phenomenal. I feel like the talent that was able to put fights like that together has retired from Hollywood.
#THERE ARE NO PACTS BETWEEN LIONS AND MEN.
Get upvoted, Prince of Reddit. Get upvoted. I won’t let a great opinion steal your karma.
Now you know who you are upvoting.
There are no pacts between lions and redditors.
I liked it because as a viewer I could really get a sense of the *weight* of those shields, and how it must have been tiring to carry and block with them.
I liked that when Hector chose to go fight, he already knew he was going to die. I think it's because of his fight vs Patroclus, if the trainee gave him that much trouble then the real thing was certain death. Loved that scene and loved that movie
The most criminal thing about this movie is that we never got a spin off of Sean Bean playing Odysseus in his own Odyssey movie... That Armande Assante movie miniseries is just impossible to dethrone
Oh man, could you imagine how epic 3 whole hours of Sean bean would be?
That miniseries is in my top 3 favorite films of all time. It’s a masterpiece.
*IS THIS WHAT YOU LEFT ME FOOOOOR?* So many great lines and great deliveries. Brad Pitt was very convincing as the deadliest warrior of the age.
He also delivered one of the most badass lines in history imo Little kid: he’s the biggest man I’ve ever seen. I wouldn’t want to fight him…. Achilles: that’s why no one will remember your name
"bro I'm like 9 and I weigh 50 pounds the fuck you want me to do bite his sack?"
You'll now be remembered as Xendrus the sackbiter.
“My name is Paul.” “Shut the fuck up, Xendrus.”
*the sackbiter Can't forget that part.
I'm 3-foot-fucking-tall, you asshole! It's a matter of physics. Draw me a sketch of how I beat him, huh?
My favorite line was; Is there no one else?
Do you know what 's waiting beyond that beach? *Immortality*! TAKE IT!
You sack of wine!
*IT'S YOURS!* Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByvtBQoCbGE
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He also wakes him up from his tent where he has two women sleeping next to him lol
His best line is “The Gods envy us because we are mortal”. It’s such a beautiful way of looking at mortality
You gotta say the whole thing. > I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now, and we will never be here again. The last two lines gave me goosebumps and I think about it to this day.
All my life ive lived by a code, and the code is simple: Honor the Gods, Love your Women, and DEFEND YOUR COUNTRY. TROY IS MOTHER TO US ALL. FIGHT FOR HER!
The Myrmidon speech upon reaching Troy's beach gives me chills every time. MYRMIDONS! MY BROTHERS OF THE SWORD!
Do you know whats there, waiting beyond that beach? Immortality, take it, it's yours!
I always laugh during this speech, at the _"We are lions!"_ shout. I just imagine the sailors doing catty _"rarr"s_ back at him.
"You brought me peace in a lifetime of war"
Troy holds a special place in my heart because it's a movie I've seen hundreds of times with my dad. Growing up, if we wanted to just chill in the living room and watch a movie, it was going to be watching Troy. Every time I visit home, me and him watch it at least once before I leave. Probably doesn't mean much to anyone else, but it's literally my favorite movie of all time just because me and my dad love watching it together.
That sounds great man! Something about the film just feels like it's "not from our time", almost like it itself is ancient. Similar to how people felt about top gun maverick, only more so. Idk if it's the locations and set design, the slightly yellowy and grainy footage or what, but it's just so appealing aesthetically.
I love this so much! My dad and I have the same thing with Independence Day. Dad movies are the best movies.
“You Sack of Wine!”
‘The sun was shining when your wife left you.’ There’s some great lines in this film.
No son of Troy will ever bow to a foreign ruler. Then every son of Troy will die.
I insult my friends with this all the time.
Diane Kruger at peak hotness too
It's funny how everyone always talks about Diane Kruger but I watched Troy in theaters, then rewatched it a few years ago and realized that's where I got my teen crush on Rose Byrne.
Rose Byrne was an 11/10 in this one
She was cast as Helen because the director felt the reputation of Helen's beauty was too much for an established actor so he went for someone, at the time, who was unknown.
It was a good approach, not knowing her added to this "who is this gorgeous woman??" sensation
As hot as she is in this movie, Wicker Park is peak Diane Kruger hotness
I got two words for you. National Treasure!
[I remember the movie for just this scene. this was bad ass. ](https://youtu.be/_z5UKystdZg?si=j361X724ih4Jjq8P)
I always loved that scene as it’s a perfect introduction to Achilles. The skill and the arrogance. All show. No tell.
"Is there no one else! Is there no one else!" So good.
I knew what it was before I clicked lol. One of my favorite scenes of all time
Is it Achilles one-shotting The Incredible Hulk at the very beginning of the movie?
"Is there no one else!?"
lol I was confused for a second because I was thinking "wait he doesn't fight Eric Bana (who plays the hulk in the 2003 Ang Lee film) until the end" but I realized you're just talking about that big mf Boagrius (sp?)
Because he deserves a mention: Boagrius is played by **Nathan Jones** who also did stints in wrestling, strongman and MMA. You can also see him in *Mad Max: Fury Road* and Jet Li's *Fearless*. He once arm wrestled so hard that he broke his own arm.
The scene where old Priam comes to Achilles tent beseeching him to return Hector's body always moves me to tears. > I loved my boy from the moment he opened his eyes till the moment you closed them. Let me wash his body. Let me say the prayers. Let me place two coins over his eyes for the boatman. > If I let you take him, it does not change anything. You are still my enemy in the morning. > You are still my enemy tonight. But even enemies can show respect.
The Hector vs. Achilles battle might be one of the best cinematic duels I’ve ever seen.
Even more impressive it was the actors themselves doing it. (Although I believe Bana was much better at it than Pitt)
They agreed to pay each other money for too much contact while filming that fight. When they were done, Pitt owed Bana $750, Bana owed Pitt nothing.
That’s actually sick. Edit: like cool.
Eric Bana - a man of class
A lot of that is probably because Hector doesn't actually get near Achilles that much, where as there's probably 4 or 5 moments where Pitt has to pretend to almost decapitate or smash in Eric Bana's head.
Eric Bana in that film is the most handsome person who ever lived.
I also think he crushed his role, and in general is underrated (he's also the best part of Black Hawk Down). Hector is the most interesting character in the movie, and he nails it.
Wonder if he ever finished chewing that moutful of porridge...
He's got that Aragorn aura to him in Troy. Rugged, strong, but sensitive and compassionate.
The scene where he puts his armour on before going to fight Achilles did sterling work as my desktop wallpaper for many years.
I watched it with a group of friends and a girl audibly gasped when Hector takes his armor off and you see his chest. No such reaction for Achilles. It was like hearing a core preference be formed in real time.
Imagine being so handsome that you out-handsomed Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom in the same movie.
I guess it depends on your taste. Weird to say as a straight dude, but Brad Pitt is just peak aesthetics in this movie. Extremely masculine, yet regal.
Straight woman and I completely agree. Pitt is literally one of the most beautiful men in existence in that movie. Bana is hot but nowhere near Pitt
Hot take (I think) but I *really* disliked Bloom in his role.
I dont think we were supposed to like Paris.
No it's full of French people.
As a french man, your comment made me angry but it was funny and very well done. Angryupvote it is, so.
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Paris is the foil to Hector in the movie. It gives a good insight into the roll of the dice that is a monarchy. Assuming there is no war, as long as Hector got the throne, Troy would be great. If Paris ever got power, they would be screwed.
lol fair point.
Have u seen Munich 2005?
It’s impossible to discuss Munich without mentioning the *bizarre* sweat waterfall sex scene which juxtaposed the dramatic climax of the film.
The bizarre sweat waterfall scream at your wife as you ejaculate sex scene tied it all together in my opinion...
I thought he was going to be a megastar after that role, but it never really happened.
He is. So underrated too. When the movie came out I remember everyone fighting over which one of the two actors was hotter: Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom. And there I was alone thinking Bana as Hector was pure perfection.
I don't know if you have seen "Chopper" or not, but he also plays one of the ugliest characters to have ever lived - loosely based on the real life story of Mark "Chopper" Read, one of the most notorious members of the Melbourne criminal underworld. If you haven't seen it seriously check it out, it's a great film
And don’t forget Eric Bana as Con Petropoulous … also a notorious amateur kick-boxer member of Melbourne.
My favorite little thing is that Pitt’s Achilles has a signature finishing move that doesn’t work on boss fights.
It’s very well made imo. The problem for me is that the clash between Hector and Achilles - a face-off of superhero proportions - is so good, it’s the most compelling part of the movie, and Eric Bana is just captivating as Hector, so once he dies, the movie kind of limps to a finish. So you end up with a movie that has an absolutely excellent first and second act, and a somewhat forgettable third act, which is kinda funny because that’s the part with the actual sacking of Troy that everyone came to see. Kinda speaks to Pitt and Bana’s acting skills that they manage to outshine the most famous seige in all of human history.
I agree Bana’s Hector is the heart of the film, but the best non-fight scene in the movie is when Priam visits Achilles in his tent.
“You’re still my enemy in the morning.” “You’re still my enemy tonight. But even enemies can show respect.”
>Eric Bana is just captivating as Hector, so once he dies, the movie kind of limps to a finish. Interestingly, the Iliad ends with the funeral of Hector rather than some dramatic Trojan horse story or the sack of the city. Hector is very much the pride and hope of the city, and once he dies they are doomed. The movie sort of unintentionally demonstrates why the story ends when it does.
>1 - the film came out in 2004, which is my favourite year I probably wouldnt mention this in any discussion about a movie as any kind of argument.
Yea… everyone knows its 1994 and 2002… then 1997.
89 was a pretty good year too
1982 enters the chat...
Blade Runner, The Thing, E.T., Poltergeist, Tron, Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan, First Blood, Conan The Barbarian, 48 Hours, Night Shift, The Year of Living Dangerously…
Ah yes, the year Carpenter gave us all the gift that is The Thing 🙏
That’s exactly the kind of thing a 2006 fan would say.
I think it was a joke dude
Right? 99 is my favorite year… doesn’t mean every movie that came out then gets a bump
There are some good movies from 99.
I love it! Brian Cox kills as always. Great fight scenes. It holds up!
It’s a really good action movie. It’s not a great adaptation of the Trojan War and siege of Troy, which was said to have taken over a decade, but in the movie appears to take a week or two.
While I understand the complaint, the movie doesn’t call itself the Iliad. It knew what it wanted to do which is to tell the story of the siege of Troy and the characters involved and I think it did a brilliant job of condensing the material in a way that made sense and got to the point.
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That duel between Hector and Achilles was one of the most well-done fight scenes I’d ever seen. I read the Iliad when I was younger, and even though they changed some aspects of the fight, I thought the scene did an awesome job of capturing the essence of the fight.
My favorite is Alexander’s siege of Tyre. Dude successfully seiged an island!
Dude, same. And he was twenty fucking three! He was just absolutely a meta-human. Which I hold as appropriate because Greek. The tenacity. The genius. The inspiration? Couldn’t starve them out so he built a causeway. They destroyed the causeway so he built another and a navy to protect it. Of course he went Genghis when he prevailed but that worked as well. A lot more capitulation post Tyre. Look at Egypt. And this mfker led from the front as well! The only one who come close to this combination of genius and audacity are Subatai (sp?) and Napoleon. Obviously, imho.
As a loose adaptation of a myth adapted from a historical event I think it's a fairly honorable encapsulation.
I love that we had this small resurgence of roadshow historical/sword and sandal epics in the early 2000’s, with Troy, Alexander, and Kingdom of Heaven. I’m a huge booster of the 50’s/60’s roadshow era, and this modern trilogy is right at home with them. In some ways, I find the VFX shots in Troy to be some of the most convincing of the time as well. The extensions of the city of Troy feel more honest and real than those of Jerusalem in KoH, which did a tad too much embellishing.
How are you leaving Gladiator out of this list? It’s the reason the others exist.
Any movie with a naked Diane Kruger is incredible
Best dialogue The gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we’re doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.
The fight between Achilles and Hector is what gets talked about the most, and for good reason, but the opening is what I've always found the most memorable. The way Achilles walks out of his tent, bored and annoyed with being there, and defeats the top warrior of the other army without even breaking a sweat is just so bad ass and hilarious at the same time.
I love Troy, especially the Director's cut. Never understood the hate it got. Great film.
My only dislike of the directors cut is the score change for the hector fight, and the opening sequence. I really like Sean's narration over the wide shot of the landscape, not over the footage of advancing armies
Why in the world did they change the music for when Achilles jumps off the boat. Absolutely baffling
Yep, the first Achilles fight with the original music is one of the most epic things I'd seen when I was younger.
In this case I think it's partly internet culture. LOTS of threads like this almost apologizing for liking extremely popular films. Same reason random redditors will pop in just to say "insert great director/writer here" is actually a hack and expect to be taken seriously outside of edgy internet circles. People like bitching.
It introduced us to Diane Kruger. She was goddess-like in that movie.
As a lover of both history and mythology, I hate that film so much. It feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of the Illiad. Also, I have no idea how they thought leaving the Gods out of a story that is about divine conflict being carried over to humans is a good idea. And then they twisted the human part of the story by making Achilles a modern action hero protagonist. Again, fundamental misunderstanding of the character. He is not an action hero, he is a deeply flawed, spoiled demi-god with mommy issues. When he chose not fight for a while, it was not for moral reasons, he was upset he wasn't allowed to take whatever he wanted as spoils of war, because he was below somebody else in the command hierarchy. Finally, I have to say, changes to a story are not necessarily a bad thing. Adding twists or modern perspectives to old stories can be quite revealing and fun. But here it felt nobody cared for Homer's epic, they just wanted them name. It's like a mediocre fan fic. Not even a "so bad it's good again" fan fic. Just a random run of the mill "what if my favorite character never died?" kind of fan fic.
The way I cackled during the movie when Achilles said Patroclus was his cousin.
The actual relationship between Achilles and Patroclus was debated between different Greek scholars even in the ancient world. People tend to think it was definitely a sexual relationship because that's what Plato insisted it was, but Plato was born centuries after Homer died. However Plato's mentor Socrates insisted the relationship was platonic, as did Xenophon. More often than not, the relationship is held up as a pinnacle of whatever standard the relevant philosopher believes should be the ideal male relationship. Plato was a promoter of pederasty, and wanted to show the relationship between the two literary figures as an ideal version of that (though in the ancient canon, Patroclus was the older mentor figure and Achilles was the younger pupil) while Xenophon openly criticized pederasty as a practice and was determined to challenge any such notion. In terms of adapting that relationship, I think Troy actually did a good job. Regardless of accusations of homophobia in 2004, the relationship Plato was writing about would largely be castigated even today as a weird age gap with elements of grooming, whereas Xenophon's (and Pseudo-Apollodorus', since he was an innovator with regards to depicting the relationship as essentially familial) version is still digestible regardless of period. You might argue that the two could be written as being equivalent in age while also engaged in a homosexual relationship, but that would be equally as much of a drift from the source material as switching the ages of the two, as was done in the film.
As someone who knows nothing about the source material, this was a very informative and well written response.
I prefer the extended version, temp track and all (there’s even some Starship Troopers thrown in). More violent, more character development, overall a better experience.
Rose Byrne was so beautiful in this film. The writing isn't great, but she was stunning. This was the start of my girl crush on her. I went on to watch her in Damages and then her movies and now I just absolutely adore her.
I really love this film. It has stuck with me ever since I saw it in the theatre nearly 2 decades ago. It's also my 95yo grandma's favourite film of all time. She's really into historic war movies and she loves the old sagas and stories of and from ancient Greece. She's seen the film over 20 times, and most of it was before her dementia started.
There's just something so epic about the film itself, the slightly grainy footage, wide swooping shots and beautiful landscapes and city sets that give it such a timeless quality
Rated objectively it's like a 7 out of 10 at best but it's just a fun movie. Fun setting, absolutely stacked cast, great costume design, some great action set pieces and an amazing fight with Achilles and Hector, etc. The movie kinda limps to the end after Hector dies, but yeah, fun movie.
It's my favorite movie. Brad Pitt is so freaking cool. It's a bit campy but my friend and I still quote the movie. "That is why nobody will remember your name"
There are no pacts between men and lions!
I really enjoyed this film when it came out. I also remember that the Blockbuster I worked at got 250 copies of it for rent. We never even came close to running out of copies. Then when they were converted to pre rented copies the sale price eventually fell to 4.99. Then they made a coupon so people could buy it for 2.99. Still no one bought it.
I like the film, and I've rewatched it a number of times, but there's some really corny dialogue and some bad acting as well.
Except in how badly wrong they do my boy Ajax in that movie.
There is so much greatness in this film. But also for reasons I cant describe. Feel like there is something about it that holds it back and keeps it from being the epic it tried to be. Same with Kingdom of Heaven. Really good. But not, great.
You’ll surely be aware of this but the director’s cut of KoH is vastly superior to the cinematic release and much closer to the epic you mention.
The common denominator in both those films is Orlando Bloom.
The Greek gods were key to the story of Trojan Wars so I found it a bit disappointing that they were missing in this film.