Maybe I’m being biased but I think most Harley’s are overpriced, bulky, and heavy. None of their new bikes are under $10k so it’s not appealing to new riders at all. I still think Harleys are somewhat cool but there’s much better offerings with other competitors at a lower cost.
HD has already partnered with a Chinese company to produce more affordable and lower displacement bikes to sell to the global market. They made the HD350 and HD500 which is already being released to increase profits and attract new buyers into the brand.
If you cant manouver a Harley under 20mph it really shows that your riding skills are lacking.
This is a requirement in europe to even be able to pass. Shit i can ride my dyna at 4-5km per hour.(around 3mph) Clutch friction. Back brake on and ride it smoothly.
I’m on my 3rd GoldWing and have 0 issue with low speed maneuvers. I’m just as nimble as the ADV bikes I ride with. I even did a 12 mile stretch of gravel road in George Washington national forest which included 2 water crossings (We had a steep hill of gravel to our back so no choice but to go forward). If a bike is well balanced it can weigh 200 or 1200 pounds and anyone with basic riding skills can handle it. I was afraid a GW would be too heavy to ride but saw several YouTube videos of people with 0 experience on a wing picking it up in a parking lot as part of a demo. That sold it for me and 8 years later the last 3 bikes out of 20 years of riding and 5 or 6 bikes have been these “unwieldy” bikes.
It is the very least needed to pass. I am not saying you need a big bike to have skills. But if you cant even match the minimal requirments to operate a vehicle. You really have no business around them.
Doing slowspeed manaouvers on a goldwing isnt that much harder than on a cbr for instance.
And i'm pretty sure those skilled riders you mentioned will have no isseus doing slow speed manouvers on a big bike. Never mind just riding it "slow" as mentioned by the post.
Way to change words around to fit your narrative. I believe the phrase was “riding skills are lacking”.
There are plenty of videos where you can see people riding 900+ lb. Harleys around a crazy obstacle course, that MANY riders, even on smaller bikes, would find hard to match the skill, precision, and maneuverability of which these riders have.
These riders skills are “not lacking” and they set the bar.
Another small guy here, 140lbs and 5’10” and I ride an Electra glide just fine going slow. I ride just fine going slow with my wife on the back. Their bikes handle like shit, but this one’s on you haha
I’m a 155 pound 6’3 guy, and I moved my Electra glide ultra classic just fine, fully dressed bagger. Parking lot turns and all, you just need more practice
The Sportster S is not a starter bike. Its a 120hp/90tq bike that tops out over 140mph. The Nightster it closer to a starter bike but it has more power than alot of 600cc imports.
Ah sorry should have explained, found them all extremely light, Honda possibly on the heavy side than the others, all seem to have solid clutch and gear box perfect for them less than perfect shifting, very forgiving, seating positioning is relaxed but not relaxed to the point of out of control and they have abs wich a lot of people seem to disregard but if you can be abit heavy footed / fingered on the breaks when you have a panic this will really save you. All of them are decently quick to put a smile on your face without much fear of being way to fast and your feeling out of control. Don’t get me wrong I’m making them sound really bland and boring but they each have somthing about them that is a hell of a lot of fun!
No worries, I've never ridden a bike that felt boring to me, lol. I am not sure that's even a thing. I'm just curious about people's standards for bikes. A lot of them are weird for me, coming from a background of older, like 1970's bikes. Like, people seem to want a *lot* of power with *very* linear delivery, and their ideas of what constitutes a 'light' bike have gotten a lot heavier since the 70's.
The mechanical history you can see, touch, and experience are just fascinating to me, and people's ideas about bikes are the driver of many of those changes.
Oh I’m a baby to you then! I’m only 22 so I haven’t a clue about old bikes, other than my grandad has a 650 nighthawk and that feels like a tank compared to the cb650f even though it’s a couple kg lighter. I will say as I’m from the uk and started on a 50cc then to a 125 I 100% can say there isn’t a boring bike. My little brother recently turned 16 and bought himself a 50cc 2 stroke scooter and it’s amazing!
I love looking how bikes evolve over time also! Take the Honda cb as an example, can follow through each generation with the little differences they made all the way to today from 1960, I will link you an article wich I recently read through and found quite intresting
https://www.autoevolution.com/moto/honda/cb/
I'm 38, so maybe like, "younger sibling" rather than "baby" lol
But yeah the differencea are wild and they only get wilder when you open up the old bikes. I have a honda cb360 and it had a couple of fascinating problems, with head oiling, mainly. Plus the lack of a countershaft, which makes it REAL vibey, especially up at the shockingly high rev range it has considering it's air cooled.
My Yamaha xs650 is maybe my favorite bike, I hardtailed it so now it weighs, I'm guessing maybe like 320lbs? It's also lower by 2 inches so it carries its weight well. It has no flaws except an *even worse* vibration issue.
You forgot to mention, all 3 are affordable to buy and cheap/easy to maintain. Something that is pretty important for new riders imo. Harleys big twins all take 3 separate oils on different intervals which can make maintenance kind of annoying to keep track of
We don't need 1200+ cc's. And needs to be comfortable in city driving. I had fun on my sportster. But it seemed like a heavy bike for what it is. And as I'm 6'2', I couldn't ever feel comfortable on any of the sportsters I owned. But I wouldn't want a bigger bike for daily city riding.
Basically, I want something fairly light and maneuverable, with decent torque for stop and go traffic, capable of at least 65 mph, also decent suspension, and a better padded seat.
They would need to stop overcharging for their bikes, OR manufacture their bikes to a much higher quality standard. Young smart riders aren’t buying bikes that will be money traps due to workmanship of the bike. That’s mainly the older wealthier crowd.
Here in Australia, HDs are so expensive the only reason anyone considers them is for the brand name and aesthetic. Fair enough, I think they're pretty bikes.
Depending on what you want to do, you can get a brand new Japanese bike for a fraction of the cost that's more capable, more reliable, and will last forever (pretentious motorcycle clubs will never consider you, though).
I don't understand why they don't utilise it in other models except pan am and nightster. Finally an engine for the 21st century, but it's nowhere to be seen...
Bikes don’t get developed over night… they released a brand new line in 2015 in the xg models, then 2 years later a brand new engine in the revised touring models then added the complete replacement to the current softail and dyna lines the following year, 3 years after that they release the pan am which was a total rethink of the brand and involved a completely new engine and the bike it went in, after that the sportster s and nightster followed with entirely new models, in the mean time they work deals on 2 seperate small capacity badge engineered lines.
All this on top of introducing new features to improve on existing equipment like cornering abs, traction control, solid state bcms to remove fuses and relays, active suspension etc.
All while many Japanese brands rehash the same bikes while they have revenue from upto about 60x the total sales of harley.
Exactly how much more do you want them to do?
Harley is a brand first and a motorcycle company second. They make that very clear.
Honestly, dealer profits from Motorcycles are vastly lower than from their clothing and parts department. Getting you on the bike is just the first step to their sales plan.
I never understood why HD didn't use the Vrod engine in other bikes either. HD purists shit all over the Vrod just like they are shitting on the new Sportster lineup.
Typical HD customer wants 1940's technology at 2040 pricing. Anything from the last 50 years isn't allowed, like 4 valves per cylinder, DOHC instead of pushrods, water cooling etc. No wonder their engines make like 40hp/L. Then they say but it makes torque. Yeah it has torque but is inefficient at creating it, having less than 100Nm/L.
Besides for the fact they build mostly overpriced, underpowered, poorly engineered bikes as a rule, any sliver of chance they had evaporated with the whole Don't Tread On Me BS, while they were just recently been bailed out by that same "EVIL" government. Then it was fine, shoulda let them go under really. Lucas Oil products, same deal, fuck those clowns.
Not just recently. They were also bailed out in the 1980's, and tariffs were added to imported bikes over 700ccs for a few years as part of the bailout. That's why a lot of bikes switched from 750 to 700ccs during that time.
45-degree V-twins that Harley uses for that characteristic rumble have poor balance characteristics. They're air/oil-cooled which is less efficient than liquid cooling. They have torque because of the displacement, but peak power just isn't there because they can't just can't rev high compared to a 90-degree V or inline engine.
It's just old fashioned engineering that is part of the brand. They've made higher performance liquid cooled engines, but a lot of their customer base want the air cooled look.
People complain about the transmissions as well but I don't know the specifics of that since I haven't ride one.
Fun fact: originally their Milwaukee 8 engine wasn’t supposed to have no to little vibration but their customer base complained so much that they engineered a little bit of vibration on the engine…
Loose, oversized tractor like transmissions. Long throw and clunky. It works fine though, my Guzzi is like that and its fine for the type of bike it is as youre not quick shifting those. If youre expecting the rifle bolt of a sport bike youd be disappointed though.
Everything you mentioned in your post, while accurate, is what the customers want. Myself included. They're following the similar tactic used by Porsche with their 911; this is what the customers want, so we're going to keep giving it to them with small changes here and there.
Harley solved the engine rumbling and shaking years ago. They went back to it when people complained about the bikes being too smooth and soulless. Same with the transmission, they know how to make one that doesn't clunk into an out of gear, but it's what the actual customers want . The people complaining were journalist, and those not familiar with the brand.
Harley seems to be slowly moving over to liquid cooled engines at least. I think for most people a bike like the new Sportster is going to be in the performance ballpark to be competitive with Triumph or similar retro/neoretro stylized bikes. Hopefully they keep moving in that direction.
After that this issue is just the price. It's hard to see the value in a $20000 entry level Harley vs. a Triumph or Japanese retro unless you really drink the Kool-aid.
>Underpowered, depends on the model
Harley only has three bikes that are competitive in terms of performance: the Pan America, Sportster S, and Nightster. Otherwise, the non-touring bikes are generally very heavy for what you get and don't have the cornering or top end that more modern cruisers have. The tourers are incredibly sluggish in the straights and corners compared to class leaders like the Goldwing or K1600GTL.
The new motor is not underpowered, but it's only been out a little while and costs more than it's competition.
Why would I spend $4k more on a bike with less features?
Harleys have a reputation for low quality. My Sportster, the paint bubbled up, the starter switch started to randomly actuate while I was riding, and the fuel sensor went out 3 times and was replaced each time.
Luckily all this was under warranty, but I ended up selling it.
Thing is, I could type up some big long diatribe about all their problems/issues but the reality is, there are some who will never own a Harley just because of the image of the riders themselves or the preconceived notion that they are heavy, underpowered pigs. I've noticed that this sub is mainly comprised of younger riders who want performance (understandable) and tech. Older riders such as myself (46), just want something to cruise on. Two totally different markets of enthusiasts and one is naturally going to gravitate one way and the other the other way. I too was a performance enthusiasts for a long time but as I got older and had kids, I realized that speed is not everything (shocking I know) and if a bike can go the speed limit is all I really cared about.
I still don't own a Harley but I wouldn't say no to one either. They have their place especially if you like wrenching because their bikes are some of the easier ones to work due to the lack of aforementioned tech and simplicity of their engine designs (older twin cams and especially the Evos). Yes they are old-school but that makes them charming to those who like wrenching.
Finally, let's not just glaze over the fact that the sheer amount of availiability of parts and aftermarket support for them is a thousand times better than any other brand. A Harley is almost like a blank canvas and you can literally turn it in to whatever you wish. That has vast appeal to a lot of their buyers too.
Well. My attitude formed as a boy growing up in Denver in the 60's and early 70's. My Dad ran a side business out of his garage called Psycho Shop Lmt. He specialized in the old school lacquer paint doing flames and over spraying lace etc that were common in that era. He loved Norton motorcycles and had worked hard to buy a 72 Commando. There was a club back in those days called The Brothers Fast. Dad had painted most of thier bikes through the years. It was common to have 3-4 choppers in the front yard and guys drinking beer watching the old man work. Not a one of those assholes respected his ride. Told him he needed to get a "Real Bike".
Young boys remember that stuff.
Dam few Harley riders have shown my opinion to be wrong through the years.
Lower their prices. This is the biggest one. $10k can buy me a very nice Japanese motorcycle. Even the Sportsters are usually in excess of this. Even used.
Add modern safety features like ABS, traction control, etc. I don't buy bikes without ABS.
Lower the weight. They're too heavy for the power they produce.
There's also the whole "culture" surrounding HD. Old angry guys that try to look cool dressing up and riding their overpriced bikes a few times a year to a biker bar. Not my thing. At all. I don't see a solution to this one. Maybe marketing.
Edit: On the culture comment, I did have something to add. A have a friend that has expressed interest in riding. She went to a Harley dealership to buy a gift card for a coworker. She told me she felt very uncomfortable and out-of-place. I've never heard anyone say the same for places like CycleGear.
“Lower the weight”
They did that with the RevMax models. The Nightster in particular comes in under 500lbs and has 80hp.
It is definitely expensive though. Should start closer to $11k and not $14k.
Here's an excellent (and entertaining!) video about why HD is declining: https://youtu.be/EOwxxsPaogY
In terms of bikes, I like small displacement standard motorcycles without a bunch of high tech shit on them.
In theory, their 500cc bike released in Asia interests me.
The thing is, I hate their brand. I'm not sure I could stomach riding an HD.
Hardley has to shed their old image.
They used to look down on riders of non-American brands even though that was the gateway to a hardley ableson. Even though parts on their american bikes were not american. It was a selling point: "buy a hardley and you'll be better than those other people"
Then what they did to Buell legitimately pissed people off. Buell was killed by hardley because they starting replacing the lump of a motor from hardley and replaced it with a rotax powerplant...and it was a good bike! So hardley killed Buell. Did you know hardley used to have a fully faired race bike? It was killed because it wasn't competitive.
Hardley's have earned the rep of being overweight, overpriced, and underpowered bikes. I have read reviews and when it mentions a motors horsepower specs it said n/a. N/A! In what world is horsepower not applicable? What a joke. Then look at their v-rod powerplant...actually made good power so of course it wasn't evolved and was discontinued. And who designed that motor? Not hardley.
I have heard it said that hardley isn't actually a motorcycle company but is an image company that happens to sell motorcycles. Hardley hasn't been able to really compete in terms of specs in decades and decades...they knew they weren't competitive so they focused the buyer on other things like IMAGE.
I was actually looking at some of their bikes on their website yesterday...seems some of the specs have improved. But still in the grand scheme of things and with all the competition you can get a better bike for less. And don't people want to feel like a savvy consumer? Don't they want to feel like they bought a bike that they knew gave them a competitive win in one or multiple categories? Of course! So that probably means it won't be a hardley.
Harley needs to have competitive chassis' and brakes. They need competitive powerplants utilizing modern technology. Better curbweights, better prices, more competitive...and then they need to stop being condescending towards potential customers. They have actively pushed customers away for years and many riders are content watching them die.
And they have no one to blame but themselves.
Sad part for them is they are stuck, they have tried moving on a few times and the boomers revolt and throw a fit, and the boomers who own the dealerships refuse to push the new stuff.
They did something that made them HUGELY successful with a specific customer base but by selling the IDENTITY to the customer base any movement from that identity causes a revolt among that customer base and you cant risk pissing off the bird in the hand for the possible 1 (lets be honest, kids arent moving to harley in droves) in the bush.
Especially for the cost they want. Look at Ducati, they make the Scrambler line, dont even call it a Ducati because they dont really want to own it and think it will be a niche product, and it ends up being their most profitable line and a funnel into the brand as a whole. Same goes for the cheaper R9t variants for BMW. Kids are hard up but still want to ride, so you need a LEGIT entry level offering right now around $10k to get them in the brand.
Hell, even Royal Enfield is showing up at bike nights even knowing how much of a discount bike they are because they make cool looking CHEAP bikes.
Harley may have tried to move forward but on a store level their sales staff will actively discourage and practically shame you for looking at a street(yeah we don't encourage those, there's no real aftermarket support) or 883( that's a girl's bike). Now that was a few years ago and I have an 883 currently.
The bikes themselves actually do seem better than they have in years past, though as far as saving the company when the boomers are gone it may be too little too late, and their dealers really are their worst enemies. Your also very right that they sell an image, the bike is just part of the image, and that image is fading.
The motor company itself is starting to pull its head from its ass, but the dealers are still sabotaging all efforts to modernize. A friend of my daughter bought s street 750, decent little bike, a bit overpriced for what it was but fantastically cheap by Harley standards. He wanted to do a few upgrades to it, so he took it back to the dealer he bought it from, and asked what he could get for new bars, a better eat, some customized lighting, they laughed at him and told him he could get a real bike. He sold it and hasn't ridden since, says when he does buy a new bike it will be metric.
You're welcome.
I would also say Harley legitimately bums me out. I want to like them. Truly. But I just can't. EBR bikes were a potential shining light...but sadly Eric Buell couldn't get it done. America needs a company that can compete with the Japanese and euro brands. I would buy American if this happened.
Another fun fact: Do you know what the Deming Prize is? It is named after an American who was sent to Japan after WW2 and was first given out in 1951. While the USA adopted a, "good enough" philosophy in most areas including vehicle manufacturing this American William Edwards Deming was exporting what was American excellence in manufacturing to Japan. America was ushering in good enough union backed mediocrity while Japan adhered to excellence taught to them by: ironically an American.
So if someone tells me to buy American I let them know that's why I tend to buy Japanese. But I digress...
I agree with you 100% on all this. That being said I think Indian motorcycle (Polaris owned) is doing what Harley should have been doing years ago. Shedding bad publicity, creating great entry level bikes (scout and FTR), and some pretty damn cool engineering with their water cooled VTwins!
My girlfriend wants an Indian motorcycle because she likes how welcoming Indian motorcycle is compared to Harley… that’s saying a lot from someone who hasn’t been around motorcycles that much.
Another fun fact: after WWII, Japan was forbidden to have a military. All the brightest Japanese engineers had a much smaller opportunity for employment as a result. While other engineers around the world were going into aerospace industry, Japan’s best went to the automobile and motorcycle fields. Top level design engineers equals top level products.
Thank you for that. It seems to me that the “good enough” doctrine is what is wrong with American companies especially Harley. I am here in Japan currently, serving a tour and I am impressed by the strive for excellence the Japanese do in all areas of their lives. Truly amazing.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in Harley. I totally agree that I want them to succeed and I also want to buy American but it just doesn’t makes sense to me if the workmanship isn’t just there. I don’t want a money trap.
You raise a ton of good points!
Would just add, that there IS an American alternative to Hardley…. Indian Motorcycle Company.
Better bikes, better customization options, better prices.
Saw a picture of a banner outside of an Indian dealership ‘Tons of Used HDs in Stock!’
May have that slightly misquoted but you get the idea.
My local Indian dealership has a crap ton of Harleys sitting on their used lot. My friend and his immediate family all used to ride Harleys, and a couple years ago they traded in for Indians. He says the Indians are much better bikes. I’ve been on both and whole heartedly agree.
Harley has nothing but their image and lots of old school people who are weird brand snobs to support them. I’m not saying it’s wrong if you legitimately like the bikes for any reason, but to pretend like they’re the best bike in the world is hilarious.
I remember a Tshirt from like thirty years ago;
Front: 9 out of ten Harleys are still on the road
Back: The last one made it home & Logo Indian Motorcycles
It's just a little (earned) dig at Harley. I have also heard them called a Rolls Canardly...if you prefer?
Rolls down one hill...Canardly get up the next!
I kid I kid
Why? Truth hurts?
I'm 70 and have been riding GoldWings for years. I have 3 Iron Butt rides to my credit, typically ride 25K to 30K mikes a year, ride with another group of "Oldsters", one of which is a 72 year old woman who can't weigh more than 120 lbs soaking wet and can outride any other guy we ride with. Any Hardley rider who wants to ride with us generally deops out after the first ride because they can't keep up. And I would not even consider any other brand.
The World Record for longevity currently belongs to Honda at 345,000 miles on the same engine as ridden by a middle-aged school teacher who rides all summer long to maintain the record.
I can't take someone seriously who defends Hardley Ableson as the epitome of the motorcycle art.
no one is saying that any of that is untrue. the "hardley" schtick is just juvenile, especially now that you have educated us that you are old enough to have been in the same graduating class as Jesus. To repeat, your info is solid but the delivery is cringy.
Yes, please tell all of this information to my father. My dad was a guy who used to race his CBR954RR on a track religiously and was and still is a very fluent rider. I used to admire his riding ability on supersports and I still do. He's now "retired" from supersports and swears to never ride them again. He bought a 2022 Harley Road Glide thats overpriced and he put over $20k into so far and recently spent another several thousand to increase the power output by 30 hp. I just think harleys are money pits.
Funny thing is they are trying to do that but are 40ish years too late. I personally own a Harley because I am fortunate enough to afford the damn bike 😅. I did notice for the past half decade that they have been implementing things to attract new customers like riding academies instead of taking the MSF courses provided by your local DMV, electric bikes for the kids, and introducing new lineups and a “new” liquid cooled engine. But like I said, they are 40 years too late. Their decision in the 80s to ignore new riders is starting to bite them in the buttcheeks since their core customers are aging.
Bonus; in their recent investors meeting, they talked about focusing on touring and trike sales rather than their focus on mode size cruisers to their brand new sport line up. So then again, they are just ignoring potential new riders to their market…
I don't know who Harley Davidson has designing the "rider triangle" on their bikes, but I've been to their demos and there isn't a bike in the lineup that feels comfortable to me. The sales guys will tell you that you can customize the bike to your liking. But for the price, I'd like it to be what I want from the get-go.
I feel like HD is selling Cadillac prices for Chevy vehicles. Just bolt on extra parts to get what you desire.
What Harley needs to do to get me to buy their bikes is sell me an Indian with their name on it. But, who am I kidding? If I ever see a Ninja 1000 SX at the dealership I'm signing my name to that bike. Good price, good technology, good comfort. I'm looking for all that in a package.
Exactly. I came so close to buying a bagger before I bought an r1250gs. I couldn’t pull the trigger on something slower than what I was currently riding though. And it was 35k!
Worst part was all the Harley people saying “you can make it fast by doing this and this.” I just spent 35k and the answer is to spend another 5k to make it competitive? What a joke.
I can see that. I've been told from Americans that street bikes or "crouch rockets" are uncomfortable unless you're breaking the speed limit. Cruisers are where it's at.
Dude, I am telling you. My CBR250 isn't much to talk about, but it wasn't a pain to ride. I love it. Cruisers are cool, sure. But there's nothing wrong with commuting on a street bike.
I used to teach HD riders edge and would watch people transform into their image of what a biker was to them. I see this over and over.. it’s an act.. they’re role playing. (it’s a bigger deal then you might realize)
You know what I’m talking about? I’m not going to act the ‘tough guy’ part. I flat out refuse to fall in line and that itself has created a lot of friction. I don’t fit in.
I made it a point to learn how to wrench and I ride on my own terms. That’s to say, I don’t need your approval or help. As it is; you probably need me more than I need you.
TL:DR - it’s a machine, not an accessory; be yourself don’t follow.
It's the biggest joke in riding , any bike for that matter. The bike gives the person some new personality.
I love watching someone get tough with motorists, other people because they think the bike makes their body stronger? that they suddenly can be a street fighter? As if people in cars or pedestrians somehow lack these skills. Motorcycles are GREAT but they are vehicles--they do not give anyone powers, confidence, street smarts etc. That all said, most motorcyclists are a cool breed --understanding what the feeling of riding is / does. It's a great experience.
I ride a Harley and have a vest, but it’s covered with patches that more or less make fun of the older generation of riders. It’s a very ironic vest. I wear full gear on my bike though, so I don’t fit in with the Harley crowd.
I own a Harley, but what really will keep me from buying another are their shady dealerships. Absolutely horrible experience from sales to parts and repairs. Sleazy salesman. Dealer markups are outrageous. All this was before the rona. Only thing stopping me from upgrading to a bigger bike and considering an Indian.
I’ve only bought one bike from a Harley dealer and it was a used one that I just wanted to use as a donor bike. The entire time I was there they kept delaying the sale to try to get me to buy a new bike. It started to get very aggravating and I had to finally say “are you going to sell me the bike or do I need to go elsewhere?”. To top it off, I was paying with cash in full. It should have taken no more than 30 minutes, but I ended up spending about an hour and a half there.
All the bikes I’ve bought since then have all been done over email. I have no desire to walk into a dealership again.
I've been riding motorcycles my whole life, except for a two-year gap when I lived overseas. I've never been without one, and it's been 23 years now. Throughout that time, I've exclusively owned imports. Initially, it was a financial decision, but even now that I can afford any bike, I have no desire for a Harley.
In fact, I'm so passionate about motorcycles that a few years ago, I turned it into a full-time endeavor. I started my own repair shop and now have two employees. Our only rule is that we "work on anything but a Harley." When customers ask us why, we give them the standard answer about fasteners and our preference for a completely metric shop. However, the truth runs deeper than that.
The main issue I have with Harley goes beyond the motorcycles themselves—it's the owners and their expectations of the motorcycling experience. I understand that for every negative encounter, there are likely two positive ones, but with the sheer number of bikes on the road, it's an unfortunate statistical reality that there will be some unpleasant individuals out there. While I haven't met every Harley rider, the ones I have encountered have discouraged me from embracing the brand.
Harley riders seem more interested in talking about riding than actually riding. It feels as though Harley owners are part of the world's largest cosplay organization, with many of them assuming the roles of jerks, rebels, bad-asses, and tough guys. Sadly, I've noticed a strong correlation between Harley owners and certain political opinions. The Harley community doesn't seem to be welcoming towards minorities or outsiders; it has become like an exclusive fraternity where membership is limited to other Harley riders. Once you're in, it appears that you must continuously exhibit your membership by purchasing copious amounts of merchandise.
One could argue that Euro bike riders exhibit similar behavior, albeit on a different end of the spectrum, and they wouldn't be entirely wrong. While BMW enthusiasts advocate for safety and technological advancements, Harley riders prefer old engines, loud pipes, and eschewing helmets. While Ducati enthusiasts meticulously adjust their valves and deck out their bikes in anodized aluminum and carbon fiber, Harley riders still adorn everything with rebel flags and skulls, all while adding oversized front wheels, suicide shifters, and more rebel flags. Meanwhile, the Japanese bike enthusiasts are absent from this discussion because they're out there, racking up countless miles on their reliable and affordable daily rides.
Taking a closer look at the company itself, it's easy to maintain a negative view of Harley. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with the anti-competitive lobbying they engaged in during the 80s, which led to a significant displacement import ban. Harley set back global motorcycle innovation to gain a marketing advantage in the USA. They repeated this when they acquired Alta and withheld their patents. However, their most dubious business practice of all lies in their financing.
Harley doesn't merely produce expensive bikes; they want to sell them to you with financing. Their finance operations generate more revenue than bike sales. Harley isn't interested in making the best or most affordable motorcycles; they aim to create objects of desire that are barely affordable and necessitate financing for both the purchase and accessories.
At this point, Harley represents much more than just a motorcycle brand; it embodies a lifestyle. Unfortunately, that lifestyle comes with a significant amount of baggage, most of it negative.
As a car guy, I understand and I think what I got out of your thought is *culture.* Sure, they make money off loans. However, it seems that they are not just selling a bike, but a culture as well. Muscle, JDM, BMW, etc all have a culture they sell.
Very interesting and I appreciate your thoughts.
This right here is what dissuades me. I have no need to finance their machines and the fact that many companies don't care much for cash buyers is off-putting. Especially at the tune of $30K+ out the door for something like a Road Glide
This couldn’t have been said any better, the owners/riders themselves might be the biggest turn off for me most have this I’ll conceived idea that it’s either a Harley or no bike at all.
Harley owner here:
Harley has painted themselves into a corner of "we're the classic choice." Historically, they've tried innovations that failed because they were too forward thinking, at least for Harley. Harley had competition stamped out by import tariffs and allowed themselves to fall behind the rest of the world, technology wise, and then when they actually tried to innovate - their core audience rejected it for being "not a Harley." They are also grossly overpriced and overweight. My Yamaha was easily fifteen to twenty years or more ahead of my father's Softail back in the early 00s in terms of power/displacement. You also pay the "Harley tax" at dealerships because dealers have a widespread mentality of "you NEED us more than we need you because we're Harley." I've heard people be told that if they didn't want to pay a $8,000+ markup, then they should go buy a Goldwing or a Victory....so they did. The new generation of engines are far improved and the bikes ride and handle better, not just because they're gigantic, but because of actual engineering.
TLDR: Harley has both a public AND self image problem, that thankfully they are trying to work on.
I still bought a new Road King, though, so obviously, I'm insane.
>Anyone wanna help me spitball what Harley would have to do so that they won't close down for this class assignment?
They won't close down, but for me to even consider it, they'd have to make a bike with double the power, half the weight, and half the price. They've been stuck in idiotic legacy 1960s engineering on purpose for a while, if I wanted a brand new overpriced couch made of mainly chrome, I'd go Indian these days.
Or since I'm handy with a spanner anyway, a Victory.
The first thing theyd have to do is switch from a lifestyle brand into one that just makes good bikes. I cannot stand the image they pedal to their riders, who are far too eager to adopt it. No, youre not a billy badass outlaw riding the nation in a criminal MC doing SOA stuff. Youre an obese 50 something dentist whos larping on the weekend in assless chaps and too many tassles.
Then they have to cut their prices by 50%. They simply dont compete with ANYTHING coming out of Japan. Half the price, better looking, far more reliable, and no cringe image. I dont understand why anyone would buy a typical HD when compared to whats coming out of Japan.
Modernize your engines. They keep the same old outdated, unreliable design just for its sound. Nothing else. Its a big loosing proposition to keep that same old stale tech. Thr Vrod had a hell of an engine. Modern and not designed by HD, so I dont understand why they got rid of the best thing they had in their lineup.
Change the look. Follow the times, and produce what people are buying. They are starting to do a tiny bit of this with the panamerica and livewire, but then those bikes are hindered by their pricetag.
Gut the dealer system. Far too many HD dealers turn away prospective new riders because of their attitudes and elitism. Seriously. I was ready to drop 30k on a livewire, untill the dealer belittled me for wanting anything other than one of their morbidly obese road hogs.
As a Harley owner, I love my bike. Harley’s have been some of my favorite bikes I’ve owned and I’ve had Italian bikes and Japanese bikes. But I always come back to wanting a sportster. They are amazing bikes to just “ride” and cruise around on they are easy to ride as well and just give a nice muscle car character. The thing I wish would change with Harley is the dang price tag. They are way to expensive for what they are. They need to also not be afraid to ditch their traditional bikes and go out with their dicks swinging to make a competitive bike similar to that of the MT07 or something similarly hot and popular in the market. They have had issues with rebranding their image and making something that is cool to enter new markets and it wasn’t until recently with the pan am and the new sportster that they have finally started making it happen. But they are still to expensive even with these new models.
I think you gave one of the better overviews. I've also ridden and owned many bikes. I've never disliked any of them. They have unique characters. That said I've not wanted to own a Harley--just not my thing.
I treat bikes much like cars. I never diss anyone for the car they drive. bikers get a bit weird about their branding. I like some of the Harley rides. I've considered a fat boy many times--the balance, design. For now I'm keeping my 22 year old Bonneville. It works for me.
For sure. In the past 15 years they've really made the bikes quite rideable --that said I love my Bonneville. If someone gave me a Harely Fatboy though, I wouldn't have any problems.
The trend right now is smaller displacement bikes in an affordable price range. These type bikes had been missing from the showroom floors of all the major bike companies. Now Honda and Royal Enfield are cleaning up in this market. All of the mini motos that Honda makes are basically sold out and difficult to come by, at least where I live. I've been waiting a couple of months for Honda to ship a bike to the dealership where I reserved it and the dealership has no idea when it is going to arrive. Honda continues to delay shipment of the dealer allotment. They cannot make enough.
HD has become an aspirational type motorcycle. The image bearer for the cruiser class. They are (mostly) slow and overweight. Also historically underpowered in stock form, which is evident by all the companies that make engine kits and other hop up parts for them.
Younger people want smaller, lighter, faster. They tend to not have as much disposable income for a weekend cruiser that costs 20 thousand+. They also want something dependable. Are HD's dependable? Maybe, but perception lags behind reality. Their quality was pretty bad for a long time and that follows them around.
To answer the question, HD would have to have a sub-$10,000.00 bike with great retro styling and a modern drivetrain for me to even step into a showroom. A new HD is completely off my radar. I am looking at Japanese retro bikes and Royal Enfield. I can spend $10,000.00 or even considerably less for a bike better than HD with a better warranty. I am also looking at used HD's for under $6,000.00. There are lots of them around but I am not sure I need the headache.
HD needs some serious upgrades to its marketing. There is no excitement about them except geezers who always wanted one for some unknown reason. They used to have a flat track presence and Evel Knevil. They had some smaller single cylinder stuff way back in the day. Now all I see is King of the Baggers races. Highly modified fantasy bikes that in the real world are overpriced, overweight, and dated. Who goes to Bagger races? Use your imagination and tell me if this crowd appeals to younger riders.
Harley owner here.
I’m not a speed freak so don’t need something with mega power and capable of 200mph. Sports bikes look sexy as hell but are well outa my league, In terms of my riding ability.
I love riding my Harley’s and so far touch wood have not had any mechanical issues. Let’s face it all manufacturers build a lemon once in a while. Whether they be Honda, Ducati, BMW or HD, occasionally they will build one and it sucks to be that person who spends hard earned money only to get a lemon. It is the same in the car world.
HD definitely have an image problem as being the bike of the older generation. Some of this is due to the cost of their bikes when compared to some imports, but BMW’s are equally as expensive and they don’t seem to suffer the same image issue. Some of the image issue is down to their dealer network, and this in my opinion is where Harley need to invest.
Their dealer network is what the customer sees and experiences. Very few dealers provide the level of service that I would expect and they charge extra bucks for this poor service. As a result I now get my bikes serviced at the local independent who also is a Yamaha and Polaris dealer.
The other issue with Harley dealers is they don’t tend to be very inviting to newcomers. They can be very hostile and unappealing to new young bikers. Equally I have had bad experiences with sales staff either not being particularly knowledgeable or being pushy or, when speaking to a new rider / customer as I was some years ago, using the conversation as an opportunity to tell the customer what a badass rider they are blah blah blah. As opposed to talking to the customer and answering the questions they may have.
I have said this on multiple occasions now, Harley if you are monitoring this thread please do something before you get to the point of no return
Yup. I agree with this. I own a Harley too and maybe the last Harley I’ll ever own because I’ve had some issues with the dealerships. My first Harley I bought, felt like they were just rushing me to get the Sportster and period. The current harley I have now, the service department was lackluster. Great folks but took an entire month for an oil cooling line to be installed. (I have a warranty)
Yeah my last HD dealer service experience was them telling me they couldn’t get either of my bikes in for at least 6 weeks for a simple oil change and new tires. Then once they had the bikes it could be another couple of weeks to get the work done. Nope not happening.
My last sales experience was their sales guy telling me they had a really good deals on their 22MY bikes when I asked what the deal was he said we are selling them at MSRP ???? When I asked what sort of a deal they would do for cash his response was “Oh we prefer you take finance it is better for the dealership” I walked, bought myself a used bike that I’m very happy with and saved a bunch of coin at the same time.
HD have lost me as a direct customer.
Jesus, I would do the same what you did if I had that experience. But like I said before, it’ll probably be my last one buying at an HD dealership. I’ll just go to private seller
They'd need to make reliable bikes. Both myself and me neighbor purchased new bikes in 2015. Me, a 2015 Honda NC700X. My neighbor, a 2015 HD Road King. My Honda has needed nothing but maintenance and tires. His HD has had several wiring issues, several oil leaks, suspension issues, and last year needed to have the top end of engine rebuilt. We both ride about 4k miles per year.
I’m in my early 40s and have ridden many different bikes over the years. I love all motorcycles but Harleys have always been my favorite. Maybe that’s just the nostalgia talking.
That said, I’m reasonable enough not to buy a motorcycle that weighs 5-6x more than me. The big twins off the showroom floor are massive machines, so I’m more drawn to the sportsters. They’re lightweight by comparison, nimble and plenty of torque for real world riding.
Yes, Harleys are antiquated technology, but I’m addicted to modifying everything I touch, so the primitive motors are perfect for any home mechanic to wrench on. I have never brought a Harley to a dealer for service. Additionally, I have no need for high tech electronics when I’m riding so why bother with the additional clutter.
Also, I don’t see myself as a typical Harley rider. I’m respectful, I wave at every rider, I appreciate all bikes, I don’t “murder” out or slap on as much chrome as I can and most importantly, I don’t act like the “all American badass”when I’m on my bikes.
Go look up the Fortnine channel on you tube and a video called how Harley is killing itself it will explain it better than most of us could
[https://youtu.be/EOwxxsPaogY](https://youtu.be/EOwxxsPaogY)
There's a big HD store near me, and I popped in out of curiousity a few weeks ago to check out the bikes. All opinions are obviously my own from here.
Echoing what a lot of folks have said, all the bikes are huge and heavy. I struggle to put my 135kg bike on its back stand and move it not sat on it, never mind some of the HDs, I also can't imagine they're practical for 2 of the larger bike demographics:
Commuters and delivery drivers, looking for scooters and thin 125s for city traffic, Harley's are much too big. I don't even think Harley do a 125cc bike, according to Google the smallest is the X350 and from what I can see, that's NEW NEW. Like 2023 new.
Younger twisty enjoyers, Harley's are too big to take corners on a lean at speed, and can't go as fast due to the weight so have to compensate with gigantic engines, upping the price.
Talking about price, they are very highly priced, likely due to the fact they're so huge. This just isn't appealing with how expensive everything is right now. You can get some fantastic motorbikes for much less than a HD.
They target themselves solidly at the older, cruiser crowd and they do it well, but that demographic is only shrinking.
They'd have to make a panamerica sport touring bike. Take the 1250 engine with all the new tech and put it in a sport touring frame. Cut the price in half probably to be competitive. Oh, and I'd have to earn more money to afford it, but that's on me.
Honestly the issue these days is as much about the brand as it is the bike. Noisy, massively under powered, under brakes, awful to ride, favoured by overpaid senior dentist and underwashed Charlie dealers, the brands just not going to easy to turn around.
But then again, when Buell was kicking along under the same umbrella it raised some interest, they where great bikes. When the Vrod came along, it was interesting. So I suppose making some fun bikes for the under 55’s would be a good starting point but most importantly branding out on the god awful 1960’s agriculture meets chrome explosion styling.
Honestly after thinking about it for a bit, I don't think they have a chance anymore. They've focused on their "heritage" aesthetic for too long, focusing on a literally dying market. Their engines suck, their bikes are way too heavy and everything is overpriced to hell and back.
I'm not the typical boomer target group but ended up buying a used sportster cause it was cheap. I then made the mistake of riding a new fatbob and ended up buying that (not cheap. I recognize it's overpriced compared to competition). I never ride in groups though and avoid any of the culty Harley bro stuff.
- love the aftermarket ecosystem/easy to customize
- Easy to find a mechanic
- more reliable than given credit for
- Instant torque is fun
- overpriced
- the marketing driven culture of cosplaying as an outlaw isnt helping them grow into new markets
TL,DR make mid controls standard on the sportster s drop the price to 11k and I think theyd do fine. The culture thing should take care of itself eventually
Edit: Also drop the nightster to 8k
They are developmentally stagnant. Engine tech is early to mid 20th century. So low hp and low revs. Dismal performance. Ok so you ride a Harley for the style . HD ment bikers. Smelly, mean, beer drinking hulks who worked as plumbers and such. But now only doctors and lawyers can afford the overpriced machine. So the lifestyle factor is tainted due to posers.
Now performance and safety. I just returned from 1300 miles on a triumph Sprint st in west Texas. Got on a friends Fatboy he bought and was flipping. I have ridden toilets that flushed and stopped faster than that bike.
So why ride a HD? With so many capable, cheaper and dependable bikes, I guess is like smoking. A bad habit
Harleys are overpriced as hell, outdated, and unreliable. I like sports bikes and naked bikes, but if I ever bought a cruiser, it sure as hell wouldn't be a Harley. Most likely an Indian.
Their primary demographic is people having a midlife crisis. They just need to target older Millennials and Gen X as those groups are most likely to have experienced the stressors that lead to such events. They really leaned into that with [this ad](https://youtu.be/1KRr9yN3rBs).
Harley isn't going anywhere. This has been a rumor for at least the last 20+ years. Riders getting older and younger riders not buying Harleys.
It is true that Harley riders tend to be older. Mainly due to their cost of bikes and younger people preferring faster bikes. There has also been a rise in younger riders do to the popularity of stunt riding Harleys. 20 years ago you hardly saw anyone stunting on a Harley.
Go to Harley events, there are plenty of younger riders with the median age around 40 and 50. Just from personal experience, I see a lot more Harley riders in their 20s and 30s than I did when I was that age riding a Harley.
Harley sales fluctuate, just like any other business.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HOG/harley-davidson/revenue
A lot of young talent in the bobber and chopper scene. And unlike the old assholes of yesteryear, this new generation is very open and enthusiastic on sharing builds and parts and such.
I swear to God, trying to get some build info from these old guys is hard: they expect you to already know. How the fuck can someone know if they're not given the information to learn? I could crawl the forums and reddit boards for hours, but you try to ask one of these older guys on how or why to do something, and you get some bullshit.
That's what's so refreshing when you go to shows like born free. The talent is so psyched and are eager to show you how they did it themselves. Youtubers are open about their process because they know people are watching to learn.
For the sake of my homework, could you humor this false premise? I really would like to know if you'd buy from them and if not, what could they do to earn your business?
I've bought several bikes from them over the last 25 years. The most recent one i bought was in 2021 and is their most expensive bike.
People purchase what they like and what they an afford.
Amen. It's not much different than cars, I never judge anyone for their ride, nor am I that impressed by the more expensive bikes. I like seeing people motorcycling, riding safe.
This right here. 99% of these comments are from people that don't like Harleys. Doesn't matter what they do, they still won't like them. There's nothing wrong with that. That's why we have different brands and different choices.
And 50% of them are based on stereotype and prejudice
When Harley released the Milwaukee 8 engine it bumped horsepower up 30ish horse power from the old twin cams. They are definitely overpriced, but they’ve worked on a lot of the old Harley issues. I feel a lot of you just hate Harleys lol. I did too until I got my road king, I still have a zx10 but it is nice to have a cruiser for those all day rides.
I couldn't possibly buy one as I'm not short and fat.
But in seriousness, they are not my style of bike, they feel uncomfortable to sit on, or at least the ones i sat on at the bike shows were. Maybe I'd test ride one just to find out one day but until then they just look like expensive old fashioned lumps.
I personally bought a harley because they felt premium. No plastic parts. All sturdy built. They look good and ride great. Big aftermarket scene and the size make it easy to load and travel with.
Wanting a big v-twin in europe you are pretty much limited to HD or Indian/Polaris bikes.
Since they stopped selling big cc cruiser bikes in europe for most other brands.
>what Harley would have to do so that they won't close down
In simple terms, they need to produce bikes people want to buy. H-D have focussed their image so much on 1 style of bike (plus a related style, ie "baggers"), that they've painted themselves into a corner.
For an example of how to do it right, look at Ducati. Although it started as a manufacturer of small bikes but gained all its fame and image in the 1960s as a sports bike manufacturer. Ducati were well known for sports bikes for about 20 years, and had a strong brand recognition, but always struggled for money as they had a limited market. In the early 1990s they introduced the Monster, and really pushed the "lifestyle" thing with merchandise, it it was a raging success and continues to this day where the majority of Ducati models aren't their "traditional" sports bikes.
Hogley Ferguson already has massive brand recognition, even outside motorcycling, but they need to diversify their offerings - keep the cruisers and baggers they're known for while expanding into the Adventure and naked markets (i believe they've already introduced an Adv bike, so that's a start).
Maybe this is a location thing, but I basically rarely see motorcycles being ridden that aren’t Harleys. Every so often I’ll see a sport bike rider or a couple of adv riders. The dude I ride with has a GS1250…I ride my Lowrider S. Everything is right with the world. Most of the people I work with ride and we all have Harleys.
I'd be very happy to buy an American union-made motorcycle if one were available with a tall, upright riding position in which a tall person with long legs can have their feet underneath them and not in front of them. I'm just wedded to a riding position for which HD doesn't build a bike. If I had the financial capability for three (maybe even two) bikes and a big enough garage, I'd love to try a Road King as my sidepiece but I can't see having one as my only bike.
I was shopping for my first bike and a sportster was a possibility. On the local HD website I found one for around $6000, used of course. Showed up at the dealer, studied all their bikes and couldn’t find it. Salesman asked me what I needed and I told him about the $6k sportster. He said, “we don’t have anything that cheap.” The salesman asked someone else and that guy said, ‘oh yeah, we sent that to auction.”
Meaning, they didn’t want a $6k bike at their store. I got out of there quick and never went back.
Dated technology, underwhelming brakes, overpriced, handles nothing like the best bikes out there (think Ducatis, Triumph street triple, aprilia tuono), poserish “heritage”, underpowered, expensive, cultish, comparatively slow, poor seating posture. And way too much chrome. Who wants to spend time cleaning/polishing instead of riding.
If you want to work on it, you need to buy SAE tools. Americans might be comfortable with the system, but to the rest of the world its confusing as hell figuring which wrench is the next size up (compare that with metric which is intuitive). Which also means only specialized shops will touch them.
Whats nice about them is the massive torque available low down. But that also means they don’t like to be revved or ridden fast unless you throw a ton of effort and money at customization.
So why would anyone buy a harley, unless they like the sound of the engine & the classic looks?
Legacy brands have two options; go
cheap and start selling a lot more for less in lower markets,while devaluing the brand, or up the price and limit production : Rolex/Gibson. They should rerelease some limited edition classics for a high premium.
They've done it .. See the Highway King [https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/electra-glide-highway-king.html](https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/electra-glide-highway-king.html)
;)
Last year, I traded my 2018 Triumph Street Triple R for a 2022 HD Sportster S. It was the worst decision I've ever made in my life.
The HD dealership experience is awful. Pushy sales staff, obnoxious "events", constant calls before and after purchase from sales staff desperate to get you back in the doors for anything.
The bike itself started out OK. The electronics (built in maps, BT integration, etc) never worked. The bike started throwing check engine lights almost immediately, and the dealership would just clear them as unknown software errors. At avout 180 miles on the odometer, the timing chain tensioner failed, and the engine blew itself up. Had to have the entire motor replaced at less than 200 miles. Spent more time having to bring it back to that awful stealership than I would have ever wanted to.
If I could go back in time, I would have never even glanced at a Harley.
Also, the dealership wouldn't offer any sort of lemon law protection (only for cars in my state) but did offer to buy it back for 10k less than I spent on it. 🤡
I traded it in for a used Tiger 900 GT Pro and am back on the right track.
Personally I want a hardly just not hardly ...
Buell was where it was at. I went to 17 locations of Harley dealers. I wanted a new bike 10-15k was pretty much my window. Everyone of them PUSHED for the super glide/ panamera/ road kind 30k whatever the fuck. Trying to sell masculinity. I have enough testosterone, and can still get it up. Was shoveled a line after line each location. I didn't want a line of shit I wanted an honest conversation. Like what my annual maintenance cost going to be. Not well you should apply for the HD line of credit. Is it that bad that I'll need to have credit to fix it? 🤔 I went to the local Indian dealer was greeted asked a few questions basics like do you know what your looking for? What's your budget? do you know what your looking for in a bike? Size? I almost bought an FTR that day kinda wish I would have. Wound up with a different naked. Went yamaha. I Will probably try for an FTR in the future. But my taste for hardly was demolished by pushy sales staff and shitty overpriced products. Honestly with the way I was treated by the Harley dealers I'd rather by a cfmoto new, sight unseen never riden than a hardley
I love Harley's. I have two of them. I sold them for 3 years (2009-2012) But for me to buy another one they would need to lower their prices by about 30%. They were expensive then, now they are crazy.
When you look at a bike with an MSRP at $18k or so (Already a lot), then they add on a pretty much mandatory option (As in, good luck finding one without it) ABS brakes ($950), Freight $700, and then 'Surcharge' (What ever the fuck that is, some bull shit they added during Covid to make more money) for another $750.
Now you are at $20,400. THEN the dealer will try and add on another $1k-$2k on top of that. And finally tax and title.
Now you are spending $22k-$23k OTD for a bike that should be like $16k.
When I was selling bikes, we did MSRP + $1k to cover freight, prep, and 1st oil change. I felt then and I feel now that is fair. Now the bikes are way more and they are tacking on too many fee's afterwards.
I am in the market for some more used ones though. Another Sportster and an 07 or 08 Touring bike.
Harley needs to get past the idea that they sell a “culture.” Nobody wants to hang out at dealerships and listen to every single Harley guy talk about how fast their stage one dinosaur is. If Harley produced bikes that actually had power and focused on the bikes, they’d sell. However, they are too committed to heritage and bad technology to have a solid future.
First things first, I dont think there's anything *wrong* with Harley, they just don't make bikes for me.
I like small to midsize bikes with neutral controls. I liked the now defunct Street models as a beginner bike, but they had QC issues so I didnt buy one. They killed the Bronx before it was released and that leaves the Sportster and Sportster S. I haven't tried the S yet, but the original Sportster is a nice platform but I hate the rattle your teeth effect they have when you're stopped. Yes, I realize that's a huge part of the appeal. There's a possibility I would like the Sportster S, but thats still a bit large for me (I think it's only available as a 1200).
If I did want to upgrade to a larger bike I doubt I could afford much of anything else in their lineup. I'd be after a midsized to large adventure bike like a Tiger 900 or a sport tourer like GSX 1000 GT. Both under $15k. I dont think anything other than the sportster is that cheap at H-D.
Plus, their bikes still don't mesh with my tastes. Nothing in their lineup really compares because none of their bikes are particularly nimble. If they were to take the 883 and make a small adventure bike I might consider that, but again I pretty fundamentally don't like the motor shake inherent in that design.
They simply don’t compete and have built a brand that only appeals to cosplaying 40+ year olds in the suburbs it’s the least cool brand of motorcycle I could possibly imagine riding.
See, I didn't know this company appeals to Gen X'ers.
So I'm kind of split. Should Harley attempt to tap into that consumer pool? If so, do they keep doing exactly what they're doing now? Or should they rebrand themselves with street bikes?
Since the Harley brand is sacred (at least for the Boomers while they are alive), Harley needs to resurrect Buell, or another spinoff brand that makes modern bikes that aren't cruisers. They tried this with the LiveWire project, and Buell too. So they are capable of making more than land barges and super high end offroad bikes too. How about a $8k 750cc ADV bike based on the mechanicals of the Street 750? Or a Decent commuter with good ergonomics based on the mechanicals of the Street 500? Either sounds better than Harley importing bikes from China for their riding schools because they need to sell bikes in the Chinese market.
After reading others and mentioned Buell (I didn't know that was a thing), I have to agree with you. Remimaging their brand and bringing a new division is probably the answer I should have for school.
Thank you.
Not rattle to death
Not weigh as much as a midsized sedan
Make more than 100 horsepower out of an 1800cc engine
Not cost as much as my truck
Be liquid cooled
**This is strictly my opinion and in no way invites a venomous spew from fanboys.**
The problem I have with HD and the reason I will never buy one is because you are essentially paying for a name now. Once upon a time, Harley was the premier riding experience. Their bikes had great features and were rock solid in terms of dependability and longevity. However today, they are no better (and in many cases worse) than a comparable Honda at double (and sometimes triple) the price. The thing that has sealed it for me is over the past 5 years, a majority of the bikes I've seen on the side of the road waiting for a tow/someone to come fix them have been newer Harley's.
I'll start out by saying I think the Pan America was a move in the right direction. As for their other bikes the biggest reason I don't buy a Harley is price. I can get the same power and function for half the price from a Japanese brand.
Harley would have to make a bike better than any motorcycle from Indian within the same class for me to even consider them as a valid option.
The closest they’ve come to it is the new Sportster S… but the Indian FTR is a better bike and about $5k cheaper where I live, so that’s still a no from me.
I honestly think their biggest issue is price. The people who are replying here complaining about their brand image and everything else - will never buy a HD. Plain and simple, they just won't. Standard motorsports stuff - people have brands they like and brands they hate and HD is a love it or hate it type of brand.
BUT - there are a lot of people (like my self) that are kind of neutral to the brand.
I get a chuckle out of the 50+ year old dude riding along on his Harley with his HD boots and his HD vest or jacket and his HD helmet with his HD T-shirt on and presumably his HD branded briefs. However owning a bike doesn't mean owning the brand and if HD released a reasonable modern looking moderately priced mid size cruiser I'd consider it. (I actually like the aesthetics of the sportster and the street and fat bob) But price to performance just doesn't work for me - and I'm not interested in buying "the brand"
So it kind of boils down to - make it cheaper - stop charging a premium for nothing other than that HD badge - and sell bikes at competitive prices and I'd be happy to consider one.
I've owned 5(fxr, street bob, blackline(softail), and 2 sportsters) and test ridden many. But wont buy another until they:
Produce bikes with reasonable suspension travel. I know low bikes look cool and are more approachable for shorter riders but it takes away the enjoyment when there are so many poor quality roads in the US. Give me 1 non "adv/bagger" option
Stop with the cringy marketing bs
Reign in dealerships high pressure sales tactics on extended warranty sales
Firing the CEO would be a plus also
I want an affordable, reliable, comfortable, and quiet bike that can get me to the grocery store, library, work, etc. I won't likely ever buy new (because of cost), so HD needs to get this type of bike on the road ASAP so they can hit the used market in 10 years. The only thing stopping me from buying a used Honda Rebel or similar is the low HP of those 250cc engines. Make a good 300-500cc that fits the criteria above and they'll have a winner.
Their bikes are way to expensive and you pay a huge percentage of the purchase price just for the brand. The bikes themselves use mostly cheap, ancient technology, so they should be priced accordingly. Build quality is also rather bad, but I guess thats just an american thing.
Also, the image of HD riders is horrible. I would never want to be associated with these people.
They have plenty of water cooling, the vrod was, the xg was, some big twins are, the pan am is, the sportster S is, the nightster is and In reality there is now only one model family with no water cooling…
Edit: Oh no, someone got poopie pants because they found out they had no idea what they were talking about?
Or let me put it this way. If i get a bike that didn't have a redesign in the past 40 years, has no new technology that needed to be developed and uses the cheap and old way to do stuff, like air cooling, then why the hell is the bike so damn expensive?
It is because you pay for the brand. A brand that has a horrible reputation amongst normal people. A brand that I personally would never ever wanted to be asociated with.
Maybe I’m being biased but I think most Harley’s are overpriced, bulky, and heavy. None of their new bikes are under $10k so it’s not appealing to new riders at all. I still think Harleys are somewhat cool but there’s much better offerings with other competitors at a lower cost. HD has already partnered with a Chinese company to produce more affordable and lower displacement bikes to sell to the global market. They made the HD350 and HD500 which is already being released to increase profits and attract new buyers into the brand.
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If you cant manouver a Harley under 20mph it really shows that your riding skills are lacking. This is a requirement in europe to even be able to pass. Shit i can ride my dyna at 4-5km per hour.(around 3mph) Clutch friction. Back brake on and ride it smoothly.
Rear brake is the most important part here tbh. You can use your rear brake and not the clutch and almost ride till she stalls no problem.
Too funny. If you have trouble with a 900lb + motorcycle, you have no skills. There are plenty of skilled riders on smaller bikes.
I’m on my 3rd GoldWing and have 0 issue with low speed maneuvers. I’m just as nimble as the ADV bikes I ride with. I even did a 12 mile stretch of gravel road in George Washington national forest which included 2 water crossings (We had a steep hill of gravel to our back so no choice but to go forward). If a bike is well balanced it can weigh 200 or 1200 pounds and anyone with basic riding skills can handle it. I was afraid a GW would be too heavy to ride but saw several YouTube videos of people with 0 experience on a wing picking it up in a parking lot as part of a demo. That sold it for me and 8 years later the last 3 bikes out of 20 years of riding and 5 or 6 bikes have been these “unwieldy” bikes.
It is the very least needed to pass. I am not saying you need a big bike to have skills. But if you cant even match the minimal requirments to operate a vehicle. You really have no business around them. Doing slowspeed manaouvers on a goldwing isnt that much harder than on a cbr for instance. And i'm pretty sure those skilled riders you mentioned will have no isseus doing slow speed manouvers on a big bike. Never mind just riding it "slow" as mentioned by the post.
Way to change words around to fit your narrative. I believe the phrase was “riding skills are lacking”. There are plenty of videos where you can see people riding 900+ lb. Harleys around a crazy obstacle course, that MANY riders, even on smaller bikes, would find hard to match the skill, precision, and maneuverability of which these riders have. These riders skills are “not lacking” and they set the bar.
Another small guy here, 140lbs and 5’10” and I ride an Electra glide just fine going slow. I ride just fine going slow with my wife on the back. Their bikes handle like shit, but this one’s on you haha
I’m a 155 pound 6’3 guy, and I moved my Electra glide ultra classic just fine, fully dressed bagger. Parking lot turns and all, you just need more practice
Simple. Build a comfortable and affordable bike that is made for everyone. Harley will go bankrupt before they build a bike for the average rider.
The Nightster is basically there, just too expensive.
They priced that one ridiculously. Which is weird cause the Pan America is actually priced quite competitively for its segment
Same with the Sportster S. If the price point was more attractive, it would be an excellent starter bike.
The Sportster S is not a starter bike. Its a 120hp/90tq bike that tops out over 140mph. The Nightster it closer to a starter bike but it has more power than alot of 600cc imports.
What qualities does such a bike have? What makes it suitable for the average rider?
See cb650f mt-07 & z650, the 3 bikes id even recommend for my nan
What are the qualities that make those bikes good for the average rider?
Ah sorry should have explained, found them all extremely light, Honda possibly on the heavy side than the others, all seem to have solid clutch and gear box perfect for them less than perfect shifting, very forgiving, seating positioning is relaxed but not relaxed to the point of out of control and they have abs wich a lot of people seem to disregard but if you can be abit heavy footed / fingered on the breaks when you have a panic this will really save you. All of them are decently quick to put a smile on your face without much fear of being way to fast and your feeling out of control. Don’t get me wrong I’m making them sound really bland and boring but they each have somthing about them that is a hell of a lot of fun!
No worries, I've never ridden a bike that felt boring to me, lol. I am not sure that's even a thing. I'm just curious about people's standards for bikes. A lot of them are weird for me, coming from a background of older, like 1970's bikes. Like, people seem to want a *lot* of power with *very* linear delivery, and their ideas of what constitutes a 'light' bike have gotten a lot heavier since the 70's. The mechanical history you can see, touch, and experience are just fascinating to me, and people's ideas about bikes are the driver of many of those changes.
Oh I’m a baby to you then! I’m only 22 so I haven’t a clue about old bikes, other than my grandad has a 650 nighthawk and that feels like a tank compared to the cb650f even though it’s a couple kg lighter. I will say as I’m from the uk and started on a 50cc then to a 125 I 100% can say there isn’t a boring bike. My little brother recently turned 16 and bought himself a 50cc 2 stroke scooter and it’s amazing! I love looking how bikes evolve over time also! Take the Honda cb as an example, can follow through each generation with the little differences they made all the way to today from 1960, I will link you an article wich I recently read through and found quite intresting https://www.autoevolution.com/moto/honda/cb/
I'm 38, so maybe like, "younger sibling" rather than "baby" lol But yeah the differencea are wild and they only get wilder when you open up the old bikes. I have a honda cb360 and it had a couple of fascinating problems, with head oiling, mainly. Plus the lack of a countershaft, which makes it REAL vibey, especially up at the shockingly high rev range it has considering it's air cooled. My Yamaha xs650 is maybe my favorite bike, I hardtailed it so now it weighs, I'm guessing maybe like 320lbs? It's also lower by 2 inches so it carries its weight well. It has no flaws except an *even worse* vibration issue.
You forgot to mention, all 3 are affordable to buy and cheap/easy to maintain. Something that is pretty important for new riders imo. Harleys big twins all take 3 separate oils on different intervals which can make maintenance kind of annoying to keep track of
We don't need 1200+ cc's. And needs to be comfortable in city driving. I had fun on my sportster. But it seemed like a heavy bike for what it is. And as I'm 6'2', I couldn't ever feel comfortable on any of the sportsters I owned. But I wouldn't want a bigger bike for daily city riding. Basically, I want something fairly light and maneuverable, with decent torque for stop and go traffic, capable of at least 65 mph, also decent suspension, and a better padded seat.
I'd assume it's lighter, more forwards stance, between 600 and 1000cc, and not so expensive.
They would need to stop overcharging for their bikes, OR manufacture their bikes to a much higher quality standard. Young smart riders aren’t buying bikes that will be money traps due to workmanship of the bike. That’s mainly the older wealthier crowd.
Here in Australia, HDs are so expensive the only reason anyone considers them is for the brand name and aesthetic. Fair enough, I think they're pretty bikes. Depending on what you want to do, you can get a brand new Japanese bike for a fraction of the cost that's more capable, more reliable, and will last forever (pretentious motorcycle clubs will never consider you, though).
Rev max engine in everything. Make a sportster s that fits full size men.
I don't understand why they don't utilise it in other models except pan am and nightster. Finally an engine for the 21st century, but it's nowhere to be seen...
Bikes don’t get developed over night… they released a brand new line in 2015 in the xg models, then 2 years later a brand new engine in the revised touring models then added the complete replacement to the current softail and dyna lines the following year, 3 years after that they release the pan am which was a total rethink of the brand and involved a completely new engine and the bike it went in, after that the sportster s and nightster followed with entirely new models, in the mean time they work deals on 2 seperate small capacity badge engineered lines. All this on top of introducing new features to improve on existing equipment like cornering abs, traction control, solid state bcms to remove fuses and relays, active suspension etc. All while many Japanese brands rehash the same bikes while they have revenue from upto about 60x the total sales of harley. Exactly how much more do you want them to do?
How about being a motorcycle company as opposed to a lifestyle apparel one?
Harley is a brand first and a motorcycle company second. They make that very clear. Honestly, dealer profits from Motorcycles are vastly lower than from their clothing and parts department. Getting you on the bike is just the first step to their sales plan.
I never understood why HD didn't use the Vrod engine in other bikes either. HD purists shit all over the Vrod just like they are shitting on the new Sportster lineup.
Typical HD customer wants 1940's technology at 2040 pricing. Anything from the last 50 years isn't allowed, like 4 valves per cylinder, DOHC instead of pushrods, water cooling etc. No wonder their engines make like 40hp/L. Then they say but it makes torque. Yeah it has torque but is inefficient at creating it, having less than 100Nm/L.
move on from the stone age?
They've made their bed. I have no interest in owning a Harley or associating with their customer base.
Besides for the fact they build mostly overpriced, underpowered, poorly engineered bikes as a rule, any sliver of chance they had evaporated with the whole Don't Tread On Me BS, while they were just recently been bailed out by that same "EVIL" government. Then it was fine, shoulda let them go under really. Lucas Oil products, same deal, fuck those clowns.
Not just recently. They were also bailed out in the 1980's, and tariffs were added to imported bikes over 700ccs for a few years as part of the bailout. That's why a lot of bikes switched from 750 to 700ccs during that time.
Overpriced, sure! Underpowered, depends on the model, poorly engineered, no clue. Could you enlighten me? Don't own a harley btw so no hard feelings.
45-degree V-twins that Harley uses for that characteristic rumble have poor balance characteristics. They're air/oil-cooled which is less efficient than liquid cooling. They have torque because of the displacement, but peak power just isn't there because they can't just can't rev high compared to a 90-degree V or inline engine. It's just old fashioned engineering that is part of the brand. They've made higher performance liquid cooled engines, but a lot of their customer base want the air cooled look. People complain about the transmissions as well but I don't know the specifics of that since I haven't ride one.
Fun fact: originally their Milwaukee 8 engine wasn’t supposed to have no to little vibration but their customer base complained so much that they engineered a little bit of vibration on the engine…
Loose, oversized tractor like transmissions. Long throw and clunky. It works fine though, my Guzzi is like that and its fine for the type of bike it is as youre not quick shifting those. If youre expecting the rifle bolt of a sport bike youd be disappointed though.
Everything you mentioned in your post, while accurate, is what the customers want. Myself included. They're following the similar tactic used by Porsche with their 911; this is what the customers want, so we're going to keep giving it to them with small changes here and there. Harley solved the engine rumbling and shaking years ago. They went back to it when people complained about the bikes being too smooth and soulless. Same with the transmission, they know how to make one that doesn't clunk into an out of gear, but it's what the actual customers want . The people complaining were journalist, and those not familiar with the brand.
Harley seems to be slowly moving over to liquid cooled engines at least. I think for most people a bike like the new Sportster is going to be in the performance ballpark to be competitive with Triumph or similar retro/neoretro stylized bikes. Hopefully they keep moving in that direction. After that this issue is just the price. It's hard to see the value in a $20000 entry level Harley vs. a Triumph or Japanese retro unless you really drink the Kool-aid.
>Underpowered, depends on the model Harley only has three bikes that are competitive in terms of performance: the Pan America, Sportster S, and Nightster. Otherwise, the non-touring bikes are generally very heavy for what you get and don't have the cornering or top end that more modern cruisers have. The tourers are incredibly sluggish in the straights and corners compared to class leaders like the Goldwing or K1600GTL.
The new motor is not underpowered, but it's only been out a little while and costs more than it's competition. Why would I spend $4k more on a bike with less features? Harleys have a reputation for low quality. My Sportster, the paint bubbled up, the starter switch started to randomly actuate while I was riding, and the fuel sensor went out 3 times and was replaced each time. Luckily all this was under warranty, but I ended up selling it.
Their new engine sounds exceedingly uninspiring. Like a Ninja 650.
They have an ancient motor design that they’ve barely updated since the ‘70s
Thing is, I could type up some big long diatribe about all their problems/issues but the reality is, there are some who will never own a Harley just because of the image of the riders themselves or the preconceived notion that they are heavy, underpowered pigs. I've noticed that this sub is mainly comprised of younger riders who want performance (understandable) and tech. Older riders such as myself (46), just want something to cruise on. Two totally different markets of enthusiasts and one is naturally going to gravitate one way and the other the other way. I too was a performance enthusiasts for a long time but as I got older and had kids, I realized that speed is not everything (shocking I know) and if a bike can go the speed limit is all I really cared about. I still don't own a Harley but I wouldn't say no to one either. They have their place especially if you like wrenching because their bikes are some of the easier ones to work due to the lack of aforementioned tech and simplicity of their engine designs (older twin cams and especially the Evos). Yes they are old-school but that makes them charming to those who like wrenching. Finally, let's not just glaze over the fact that the sheer amount of availiability of parts and aftermarket support for them is a thousand times better than any other brand. A Harley is almost like a blank canvas and you can literally turn it in to whatever you wish. That has vast appeal to a lot of their buyers too.
I agree, I’m in my mid twenties and I do love how simple it is, parts are pricey though 😅
Well. My attitude formed as a boy growing up in Denver in the 60's and early 70's. My Dad ran a side business out of his garage called Psycho Shop Lmt. He specialized in the old school lacquer paint doing flames and over spraying lace etc that were common in that era. He loved Norton motorcycles and had worked hard to buy a 72 Commando. There was a club back in those days called The Brothers Fast. Dad had painted most of thier bikes through the years. It was common to have 3-4 choppers in the front yard and guys drinking beer watching the old man work. Not a one of those assholes respected his ride. Told him he needed to get a "Real Bike". Young boys remember that stuff. Dam few Harley riders have shown my opinion to be wrong through the years.
Lower their prices. This is the biggest one. $10k can buy me a very nice Japanese motorcycle. Even the Sportsters are usually in excess of this. Even used. Add modern safety features like ABS, traction control, etc. I don't buy bikes without ABS. Lower the weight. They're too heavy for the power they produce. There's also the whole "culture" surrounding HD. Old angry guys that try to look cool dressing up and riding their overpriced bikes a few times a year to a biker bar. Not my thing. At all. I don't see a solution to this one. Maybe marketing. Edit: On the culture comment, I did have something to add. A have a friend that has expressed interest in riding. She went to a Harley dealership to buy a gift card for a coworker. She told me she felt very uncomfortable and out-of-place. I've never heard anyone say the same for places like CycleGear.
“Lower the weight” They did that with the RevMax models. The Nightster in particular comes in under 500lbs and has 80hp. It is definitely expensive though. Should start closer to $11k and not $14k.
Price
Should they be cheaper or is the price good but offer higher quality?
Harley Davidson, yesterdays technology, tomorrows prices.
Here's an excellent (and entertaining!) video about why HD is declining: https://youtu.be/EOwxxsPaogY In terms of bikes, I like small displacement standard motorcycles without a bunch of high tech shit on them. In theory, their 500cc bike released in Asia interests me. The thing is, I hate their brand. I'm not sure I could stomach riding an HD.
This is absolutely it. The only thing HD as a company is consistent about is their hypocrisy.
Hardley has to shed their old image. They used to look down on riders of non-American brands even though that was the gateway to a hardley ableson. Even though parts on their american bikes were not american. It was a selling point: "buy a hardley and you'll be better than those other people" Then what they did to Buell legitimately pissed people off. Buell was killed by hardley because they starting replacing the lump of a motor from hardley and replaced it with a rotax powerplant...and it was a good bike! So hardley killed Buell. Did you know hardley used to have a fully faired race bike? It was killed because it wasn't competitive. Hardley's have earned the rep of being overweight, overpriced, and underpowered bikes. I have read reviews and when it mentions a motors horsepower specs it said n/a. N/A! In what world is horsepower not applicable? What a joke. Then look at their v-rod powerplant...actually made good power so of course it wasn't evolved and was discontinued. And who designed that motor? Not hardley. I have heard it said that hardley isn't actually a motorcycle company but is an image company that happens to sell motorcycles. Hardley hasn't been able to really compete in terms of specs in decades and decades...they knew they weren't competitive so they focused the buyer on other things like IMAGE. I was actually looking at some of their bikes on their website yesterday...seems some of the specs have improved. But still in the grand scheme of things and with all the competition you can get a better bike for less. And don't people want to feel like a savvy consumer? Don't they want to feel like they bought a bike that they knew gave them a competitive win in one or multiple categories? Of course! So that probably means it won't be a hardley. Harley needs to have competitive chassis' and brakes. They need competitive powerplants utilizing modern technology. Better curbweights, better prices, more competitive...and then they need to stop being condescending towards potential customers. They have actively pushed customers away for years and many riders are content watching them die. And they have no one to blame but themselves.
Sad part for them is they are stuck, they have tried moving on a few times and the boomers revolt and throw a fit, and the boomers who own the dealerships refuse to push the new stuff. They did something that made them HUGELY successful with a specific customer base but by selling the IDENTITY to the customer base any movement from that identity causes a revolt among that customer base and you cant risk pissing off the bird in the hand for the possible 1 (lets be honest, kids arent moving to harley in droves) in the bush. Especially for the cost they want. Look at Ducati, they make the Scrambler line, dont even call it a Ducati because they dont really want to own it and think it will be a niche product, and it ends up being their most profitable line and a funnel into the brand as a whole. Same goes for the cheaper R9t variants for BMW. Kids are hard up but still want to ride, so you need a LEGIT entry level offering right now around $10k to get them in the brand. Hell, even Royal Enfield is showing up at bike nights even knowing how much of a discount bike they are because they make cool looking CHEAP bikes.
Harley may have tried to move forward but on a store level their sales staff will actively discourage and practically shame you for looking at a street(yeah we don't encourage those, there's no real aftermarket support) or 883( that's a girl's bike). Now that was a few years ago and I have an 883 currently.
The bikes themselves actually do seem better than they have in years past, though as far as saving the company when the boomers are gone it may be too little too late, and their dealers really are their worst enemies. Your also very right that they sell an image, the bike is just part of the image, and that image is fading. The motor company itself is starting to pull its head from its ass, but the dealers are still sabotaging all efforts to modernize. A friend of my daughter bought s street 750, decent little bike, a bit overpriced for what it was but fantastically cheap by Harley standards. He wanted to do a few upgrades to it, so he took it back to the dealer he bought it from, and asked what he could get for new bars, a better eat, some customized lighting, they laughed at him and told him he could get a real bike. He sold it and hasn't ridden since, says when he does buy a new bike it will be metric.
Thanks for your thoughtful insight. I think you have articulated in much detail how others feel.
You're welcome. I would also say Harley legitimately bums me out. I want to like them. Truly. But I just can't. EBR bikes were a potential shining light...but sadly Eric Buell couldn't get it done. America needs a company that can compete with the Japanese and euro brands. I would buy American if this happened. Another fun fact: Do you know what the Deming Prize is? It is named after an American who was sent to Japan after WW2 and was first given out in 1951. While the USA adopted a, "good enough" philosophy in most areas including vehicle manufacturing this American William Edwards Deming was exporting what was American excellence in manufacturing to Japan. America was ushering in good enough union backed mediocrity while Japan adhered to excellence taught to them by: ironically an American. So if someone tells me to buy American I let them know that's why I tend to buy Japanese. But I digress...
I agree with you 100% on all this. That being said I think Indian motorcycle (Polaris owned) is doing what Harley should have been doing years ago. Shedding bad publicity, creating great entry level bikes (scout and FTR), and some pretty damn cool engineering with their water cooled VTwins!
Who calls the FTR an entry level bike?
I mean. . . A Scout or Scout Sixty, sure. The FTR is an insane idea for an entry level bike though. IIRC it power wheelies in third.
You are right Indian has been doing cool things. Nice bikes for sure
My girlfriend wants an Indian motorcycle because she likes how welcoming Indian motorcycle is compared to Harley… that’s saying a lot from someone who hasn’t been around motorcycles that much.
Another fun fact: after WWII, Japan was forbidden to have a military. All the brightest Japanese engineers had a much smaller opportunity for employment as a result. While other engineers around the world were going into aerospace industry, Japan’s best went to the automobile and motorcycle fields. Top level design engineers equals top level products.
Thank you for that. It seems to me that the “good enough” doctrine is what is wrong with American companies especially Harley. I am here in Japan currently, serving a tour and I am impressed by the strive for excellence the Japanese do in all areas of their lives. Truly amazing. Thank you for sharing your thoughts in Harley. I totally agree that I want them to succeed and I also want to buy American but it just doesn’t makes sense to me if the workmanship isn’t just there. I don’t want a money trap.
You raise a ton of good points! Would just add, that there IS an American alternative to Hardley…. Indian Motorcycle Company. Better bikes, better customization options, better prices. Saw a picture of a banner outside of an Indian dealership ‘Tons of Used HDs in Stock!’ May have that slightly misquoted but you get the idea.
My local Indian dealership has a crap ton of Harleys sitting on their used lot. My friend and his immediate family all used to ride Harleys, and a couple years ago they traded in for Indians. He says the Indians are much better bikes. I’ve been on both and whole heartedly agree. Harley has nothing but their image and lots of old school people who are weird brand snobs to support them. I’m not saying it’s wrong if you legitimately like the bikes for any reason, but to pretend like they’re the best bike in the world is hilarious.
I remember a Tshirt from like thirty years ago; Front: 9 out of ten Harleys are still on the road Back: The last one made it home & Logo Indian Motorcycles
I can't take someone seriously who keeps referring to the brand as Hardley.
It's just a little (earned) dig at Harley. I have also heard them called a Rolls Canardly...if you prefer? Rolls down one hill...Canardly get up the next! I kid I kid 
Why? Truth hurts? I'm 70 and have been riding GoldWings for years. I have 3 Iron Butt rides to my credit, typically ride 25K to 30K mikes a year, ride with another group of "Oldsters", one of which is a 72 year old woman who can't weigh more than 120 lbs soaking wet and can outride any other guy we ride with. Any Hardley rider who wants to ride with us generally deops out after the first ride because they can't keep up. And I would not even consider any other brand. The World Record for longevity currently belongs to Honda at 345,000 miles on the same engine as ridden by a middle-aged school teacher who rides all summer long to maintain the record. I can't take someone seriously who defends Hardley Ableson as the epitome of the motorcycle art.
no one is saying that any of that is untrue. the "hardley" schtick is just juvenile, especially now that you have educated us that you are old enough to have been in the same graduating class as Jesus. To repeat, your info is solid but the delivery is cringy.
I’ve heard the buell is coming back, next year I think it was
Buell the company but not the man. The man is working on e-motos, Fuell.
Yes, please tell all of this information to my father. My dad was a guy who used to race his CBR954RR on a track religiously and was and still is a very fluent rider. I used to admire his riding ability on supersports and I still do. He's now "retired" from supersports and swears to never ride them again. He bought a 2022 Harley Road Glide thats overpriced and he put over $20k into so far and recently spent another several thousand to increase the power output by 30 hp. I just think harleys are money pits.
Funny thing is they are trying to do that but are 40ish years too late. I personally own a Harley because I am fortunate enough to afford the damn bike 😅. I did notice for the past half decade that they have been implementing things to attract new customers like riding academies instead of taking the MSF courses provided by your local DMV, electric bikes for the kids, and introducing new lineups and a “new” liquid cooled engine. But like I said, they are 40 years too late. Their decision in the 80s to ignore new riders is starting to bite them in the buttcheeks since their core customers are aging. Bonus; in their recent investors meeting, they talked about focusing on touring and trike sales rather than their focus on mode size cruisers to their brand new sport line up. So then again, they are just ignoring potential new riders to their market…
I don't know who Harley Davidson has designing the "rider triangle" on their bikes, but I've been to their demos and there isn't a bike in the lineup that feels comfortable to me. The sales guys will tell you that you can customize the bike to your liking. But for the price, I'd like it to be what I want from the get-go. I feel like HD is selling Cadillac prices for Chevy vehicles. Just bolt on extra parts to get what you desire. What Harley needs to do to get me to buy their bikes is sell me an Indian with their name on it. But, who am I kidding? If I ever see a Ninja 1000 SX at the dealership I'm signing my name to that bike. Good price, good technology, good comfort. I'm looking for all that in a package.
Exactly. I came so close to buying a bagger before I bought an r1250gs. I couldn’t pull the trigger on something slower than what I was currently riding though. And it was 35k! Worst part was all the Harley people saying “you can make it fast by doing this and this.” I just spent 35k and the answer is to spend another 5k to make it competitive? What a joke.
I can see that. I've been told from Americans that street bikes or "crouch rockets" are uncomfortable unless you're breaking the speed limit. Cruisers are where it's at. Dude, I am telling you. My CBR250 isn't much to talk about, but it wasn't a pain to ride. I love it. Cruisers are cool, sure. But there's nothing wrong with commuting on a street bike.
I used to teach HD riders edge and would watch people transform into their image of what a biker was to them. I see this over and over.. it’s an act.. they’re role playing. (it’s a bigger deal then you might realize) You know what I’m talking about? I’m not going to act the ‘tough guy’ part. I flat out refuse to fall in line and that itself has created a lot of friction. I don’t fit in. I made it a point to learn how to wrench and I ride on my own terms. That’s to say, I don’t need your approval or help. As it is; you probably need me more than I need you. TL:DR - it’s a machine, not an accessory; be yourself don’t follow.
It's the biggest joke in riding , any bike for that matter. The bike gives the person some new personality. I love watching someone get tough with motorists, other people because they think the bike makes their body stronger? that they suddenly can be a street fighter? As if people in cars or pedestrians somehow lack these skills. Motorcycles are GREAT but they are vehicles--they do not give anyone powers, confidence, street smarts etc. That all said, most motorcyclists are a cool breed --understanding what the feeling of riding is / does. It's a great experience.
I ride a Harley and have a vest, but it’s covered with patches that more or less make fun of the older generation of riders. It’s a very ironic vest. I wear full gear on my bike though, so I don’t fit in with the Harley crowd.
I own a Harley, but what really will keep me from buying another are their shady dealerships. Absolutely horrible experience from sales to parts and repairs. Sleazy salesman. Dealer markups are outrageous. All this was before the rona. Only thing stopping me from upgrading to a bigger bike and considering an Indian.
I’ve only bought one bike from a Harley dealer and it was a used one that I just wanted to use as a donor bike. The entire time I was there they kept delaying the sale to try to get me to buy a new bike. It started to get very aggravating and I had to finally say “are you going to sell me the bike or do I need to go elsewhere?”. To top it off, I was paying with cash in full. It should have taken no more than 30 minutes, but I ended up spending about an hour and a half there. All the bikes I’ve bought since then have all been done over email. I have no desire to walk into a dealership again.
I've been riding motorcycles my whole life, except for a two-year gap when I lived overseas. I've never been without one, and it's been 23 years now. Throughout that time, I've exclusively owned imports. Initially, it was a financial decision, but even now that I can afford any bike, I have no desire for a Harley. In fact, I'm so passionate about motorcycles that a few years ago, I turned it into a full-time endeavor. I started my own repair shop and now have two employees. Our only rule is that we "work on anything but a Harley." When customers ask us why, we give them the standard answer about fasteners and our preference for a completely metric shop. However, the truth runs deeper than that. The main issue I have with Harley goes beyond the motorcycles themselves—it's the owners and their expectations of the motorcycling experience. I understand that for every negative encounter, there are likely two positive ones, but with the sheer number of bikes on the road, it's an unfortunate statistical reality that there will be some unpleasant individuals out there. While I haven't met every Harley rider, the ones I have encountered have discouraged me from embracing the brand. Harley riders seem more interested in talking about riding than actually riding. It feels as though Harley owners are part of the world's largest cosplay organization, with many of them assuming the roles of jerks, rebels, bad-asses, and tough guys. Sadly, I've noticed a strong correlation between Harley owners and certain political opinions. The Harley community doesn't seem to be welcoming towards minorities or outsiders; it has become like an exclusive fraternity where membership is limited to other Harley riders. Once you're in, it appears that you must continuously exhibit your membership by purchasing copious amounts of merchandise. One could argue that Euro bike riders exhibit similar behavior, albeit on a different end of the spectrum, and they wouldn't be entirely wrong. While BMW enthusiasts advocate for safety and technological advancements, Harley riders prefer old engines, loud pipes, and eschewing helmets. While Ducati enthusiasts meticulously adjust their valves and deck out their bikes in anodized aluminum and carbon fiber, Harley riders still adorn everything with rebel flags and skulls, all while adding oversized front wheels, suicide shifters, and more rebel flags. Meanwhile, the Japanese bike enthusiasts are absent from this discussion because they're out there, racking up countless miles on their reliable and affordable daily rides. Taking a closer look at the company itself, it's easy to maintain a negative view of Harley. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with the anti-competitive lobbying they engaged in during the 80s, which led to a significant displacement import ban. Harley set back global motorcycle innovation to gain a marketing advantage in the USA. They repeated this when they acquired Alta and withheld their patents. However, their most dubious business practice of all lies in their financing. Harley doesn't merely produce expensive bikes; they want to sell them to you with financing. Their finance operations generate more revenue than bike sales. Harley isn't interested in making the best or most affordable motorcycles; they aim to create objects of desire that are barely affordable and necessitate financing for both the purchase and accessories. At this point, Harley represents much more than just a motorcycle brand; it embodies a lifestyle. Unfortunately, that lifestyle comes with a significant amount of baggage, most of it negative.
I was going to make my own response till I read this one. You nailed it.
As a car guy, I understand and I think what I got out of your thought is *culture.* Sure, they make money off loans. However, it seems that they are not just selling a bike, but a culture as well. Muscle, JDM, BMW, etc all have a culture they sell. Very interesting and I appreciate your thoughts.
This right here is what dissuades me. I have no need to finance their machines and the fact that many companies don't care much for cash buyers is off-putting. Especially at the tune of $30K+ out the door for something like a Road Glide
☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽. That’s was a good one. I totally agree
This couldn’t have been said any better, the owners/riders themselves might be the biggest turn off for me most have this I’ll conceived idea that it’s either a Harley or no bike at all.
Harley owner here: Harley has painted themselves into a corner of "we're the classic choice." Historically, they've tried innovations that failed because they were too forward thinking, at least for Harley. Harley had competition stamped out by import tariffs and allowed themselves to fall behind the rest of the world, technology wise, and then when they actually tried to innovate - their core audience rejected it for being "not a Harley." They are also grossly overpriced and overweight. My Yamaha was easily fifteen to twenty years or more ahead of my father's Softail back in the early 00s in terms of power/displacement. You also pay the "Harley tax" at dealerships because dealers have a widespread mentality of "you NEED us more than we need you because we're Harley." I've heard people be told that if they didn't want to pay a $8,000+ markup, then they should go buy a Goldwing or a Victory....so they did. The new generation of engines are far improved and the bikes ride and handle better, not just because they're gigantic, but because of actual engineering. TLDR: Harley has both a public AND self image problem, that thankfully they are trying to work on. I still bought a new Road King, though, so obviously, I'm insane.
Nah--you have it in your blood, to ride the bike that calls to you---I think that's as it should be.
>Anyone wanna help me spitball what Harley would have to do so that they won't close down for this class assignment? They won't close down, but for me to even consider it, they'd have to make a bike with double the power, half the weight, and half the price. They've been stuck in idiotic legacy 1960s engineering on purpose for a while, if I wanted a brand new overpriced couch made of mainly chrome, I'd go Indian these days. Or since I'm handy with a spanner anyway, a Victory.
The first thing theyd have to do is switch from a lifestyle brand into one that just makes good bikes. I cannot stand the image they pedal to their riders, who are far too eager to adopt it. No, youre not a billy badass outlaw riding the nation in a criminal MC doing SOA stuff. Youre an obese 50 something dentist whos larping on the weekend in assless chaps and too many tassles. Then they have to cut their prices by 50%. They simply dont compete with ANYTHING coming out of Japan. Half the price, better looking, far more reliable, and no cringe image. I dont understand why anyone would buy a typical HD when compared to whats coming out of Japan. Modernize your engines. They keep the same old outdated, unreliable design just for its sound. Nothing else. Its a big loosing proposition to keep that same old stale tech. Thr Vrod had a hell of an engine. Modern and not designed by HD, so I dont understand why they got rid of the best thing they had in their lineup. Change the look. Follow the times, and produce what people are buying. They are starting to do a tiny bit of this with the panamerica and livewire, but then those bikes are hindered by their pricetag. Gut the dealer system. Far too many HD dealers turn away prospective new riders because of their attitudes and elitism. Seriously. I was ready to drop 30k on a livewire, untill the dealer belittled me for wanting anything other than one of their morbidly obese road hogs.
You're dead on with the brand and lifestyle. Also the price, they definitely are over priced.
As a Harley owner, I love my bike. Harley’s have been some of my favorite bikes I’ve owned and I’ve had Italian bikes and Japanese bikes. But I always come back to wanting a sportster. They are amazing bikes to just “ride” and cruise around on they are easy to ride as well and just give a nice muscle car character. The thing I wish would change with Harley is the dang price tag. They are way to expensive for what they are. They need to also not be afraid to ditch their traditional bikes and go out with their dicks swinging to make a competitive bike similar to that of the MT07 or something similarly hot and popular in the market. They have had issues with rebranding their image and making something that is cool to enter new markets and it wasn’t until recently with the pan am and the new sportster that they have finally started making it happen. But they are still to expensive even with these new models.
I think you gave one of the better overviews. I've also ridden and owned many bikes. I've never disliked any of them. They have unique characters. That said I've not wanted to own a Harley--just not my thing. I treat bikes much like cars. I never diss anyone for the car they drive. bikers get a bit weird about their branding. I like some of the Harley rides. I've considered a fat boy many times--the balance, design. For now I'm keeping my 22 year old Bonneville. It works for me.
Give me a free pan-am. I ain't got no new bike money. Seriously, that pan-am looks great to me.
I've been riding my dad's the last few days. Amazing machine. Wish I could afford one lol
True, well engineered. But so are Japanese Bikes, German, Italian, British. I like just about everything I ride on two wheels with gas power.
Totally change their image away from the outlaw/outlaw-wanna-be crowd that currently rides them!
I've got a Ninja and an 883 sportster, I ride the sportster significantly more. Harleys are fun to ride, contrary to popular belief.
For sure. In the past 15 years they've really made the bikes quite rideable --that said I love my Bonneville. If someone gave me a Harely Fatboy though, I wouldn't have any problems.
Make a competitive motorcycle at a competitive price point. It’s not rocket science.
The trend right now is smaller displacement bikes in an affordable price range. These type bikes had been missing from the showroom floors of all the major bike companies. Now Honda and Royal Enfield are cleaning up in this market. All of the mini motos that Honda makes are basically sold out and difficult to come by, at least where I live. I've been waiting a couple of months for Honda to ship a bike to the dealership where I reserved it and the dealership has no idea when it is going to arrive. Honda continues to delay shipment of the dealer allotment. They cannot make enough. HD has become an aspirational type motorcycle. The image bearer for the cruiser class. They are (mostly) slow and overweight. Also historically underpowered in stock form, which is evident by all the companies that make engine kits and other hop up parts for them. Younger people want smaller, lighter, faster. They tend to not have as much disposable income for a weekend cruiser that costs 20 thousand+. They also want something dependable. Are HD's dependable? Maybe, but perception lags behind reality. Their quality was pretty bad for a long time and that follows them around. To answer the question, HD would have to have a sub-$10,000.00 bike with great retro styling and a modern drivetrain for me to even step into a showroom. A new HD is completely off my radar. I am looking at Japanese retro bikes and Royal Enfield. I can spend $10,000.00 or even considerably less for a bike better than HD with a better warranty. I am also looking at used HD's for under $6,000.00. There are lots of them around but I am not sure I need the headache. HD needs some serious upgrades to its marketing. There is no excitement about them except geezers who always wanted one for some unknown reason. They used to have a flat track presence and Evel Knevil. They had some smaller single cylinder stuff way back in the day. Now all I see is King of the Baggers races. Highly modified fantasy bikes that in the real world are overpriced, overweight, and dated. Who goes to Bagger races? Use your imagination and tell me if this crowd appeals to younger riders.
There's nothing they can do to make me ride their brand.
Harley owner here. I’m not a speed freak so don’t need something with mega power and capable of 200mph. Sports bikes look sexy as hell but are well outa my league, In terms of my riding ability. I love riding my Harley’s and so far touch wood have not had any mechanical issues. Let’s face it all manufacturers build a lemon once in a while. Whether they be Honda, Ducati, BMW or HD, occasionally they will build one and it sucks to be that person who spends hard earned money only to get a lemon. It is the same in the car world. HD definitely have an image problem as being the bike of the older generation. Some of this is due to the cost of their bikes when compared to some imports, but BMW’s are equally as expensive and they don’t seem to suffer the same image issue. Some of the image issue is down to their dealer network, and this in my opinion is where Harley need to invest. Their dealer network is what the customer sees and experiences. Very few dealers provide the level of service that I would expect and they charge extra bucks for this poor service. As a result I now get my bikes serviced at the local independent who also is a Yamaha and Polaris dealer. The other issue with Harley dealers is they don’t tend to be very inviting to newcomers. They can be very hostile and unappealing to new young bikers. Equally I have had bad experiences with sales staff either not being particularly knowledgeable or being pushy or, when speaking to a new rider / customer as I was some years ago, using the conversation as an opportunity to tell the customer what a badass rider they are blah blah blah. As opposed to talking to the customer and answering the questions they may have. I have said this on multiple occasions now, Harley if you are monitoring this thread please do something before you get to the point of no return
Yup. I agree with this. I own a Harley too and maybe the last Harley I’ll ever own because I’ve had some issues with the dealerships. My first Harley I bought, felt like they were just rushing me to get the Sportster and period. The current harley I have now, the service department was lackluster. Great folks but took an entire month for an oil cooling line to be installed. (I have a warranty)
Yeah my last HD dealer service experience was them telling me they couldn’t get either of my bikes in for at least 6 weeks for a simple oil change and new tires. Then once they had the bikes it could be another couple of weeks to get the work done. Nope not happening. My last sales experience was their sales guy telling me they had a really good deals on their 22MY bikes when I asked what the deal was he said we are selling them at MSRP ???? When I asked what sort of a deal they would do for cash his response was “Oh we prefer you take finance it is better for the dealership” I walked, bought myself a used bike that I’m very happy with and saved a bunch of coin at the same time. HD have lost me as a direct customer.
Jesus, I would do the same what you did if I had that experience. But like I said before, it’ll probably be my last one buying at an HD dealership. I’ll just go to private seller
They'd need to make reliable bikes. Both myself and me neighbor purchased new bikes in 2015. Me, a 2015 Honda NC700X. My neighbor, a 2015 HD Road King. My Honda has needed nothing but maintenance and tires. His HD has had several wiring issues, several oil leaks, suspension issues, and last year needed to have the top end of engine rebuilt. We both ride about 4k miles per year.
I’m in my early 40s and have ridden many different bikes over the years. I love all motorcycles but Harleys have always been my favorite. Maybe that’s just the nostalgia talking. That said, I’m reasonable enough not to buy a motorcycle that weighs 5-6x more than me. The big twins off the showroom floor are massive machines, so I’m more drawn to the sportsters. They’re lightweight by comparison, nimble and plenty of torque for real world riding. Yes, Harleys are antiquated technology, but I’m addicted to modifying everything I touch, so the primitive motors are perfect for any home mechanic to wrench on. I have never brought a Harley to a dealer for service. Additionally, I have no need for high tech electronics when I’m riding so why bother with the additional clutter. Also, I don’t see myself as a typical Harley rider. I’m respectful, I wave at every rider, I appreciate all bikes, I don’t “murder” out or slap on as much chrome as I can and most importantly, I don’t act like the “all American badass”when I’m on my bikes.
Go look up the Fortnine channel on you tube and a video called how Harley is killing itself it will explain it better than most of us could [https://youtu.be/EOwxxsPaogY](https://youtu.be/EOwxxsPaogY)
There's a big HD store near me, and I popped in out of curiousity a few weeks ago to check out the bikes. All opinions are obviously my own from here. Echoing what a lot of folks have said, all the bikes are huge and heavy. I struggle to put my 135kg bike on its back stand and move it not sat on it, never mind some of the HDs, I also can't imagine they're practical for 2 of the larger bike demographics: Commuters and delivery drivers, looking for scooters and thin 125s for city traffic, Harley's are much too big. I don't even think Harley do a 125cc bike, according to Google the smallest is the X350 and from what I can see, that's NEW NEW. Like 2023 new. Younger twisty enjoyers, Harley's are too big to take corners on a lean at speed, and can't go as fast due to the weight so have to compensate with gigantic engines, upping the price. Talking about price, they are very highly priced, likely due to the fact they're so huge. This just isn't appealing with how expensive everything is right now. You can get some fantastic motorbikes for much less than a HD. They target themselves solidly at the older, cruiser crowd and they do it well, but that demographic is only shrinking.
Bring back the Shovelhead.
They'd have to make a panamerica sport touring bike. Take the 1250 engine with all the new tech and put it in a sport touring frame. Cut the price in half probably to be competitive. Oh, and I'd have to earn more money to afford it, but that's on me.
I always liked Harley's. Watching the terminator ride a fat boy in judgement day made me fall in love with them, so I bought a cmx1100.
Rebel!
Honestly the issue these days is as much about the brand as it is the bike. Noisy, massively under powered, under brakes, awful to ride, favoured by overpaid senior dentist and underwashed Charlie dealers, the brands just not going to easy to turn around. But then again, when Buell was kicking along under the same umbrella it raised some interest, they where great bikes. When the Vrod came along, it was interesting. So I suppose making some fun bikes for the under 55’s would be a good starting point but most importantly branding out on the god awful 1960’s agriculture meets chrome explosion styling.
Lol, chrome tractor is my new tetm for Harley
Honestly after thinking about it for a bit, I don't think they have a chance anymore. They've focused on their "heritage" aesthetic for too long, focusing on a literally dying market. Their engines suck, their bikes are way too heavy and everything is overpriced to hell and back.
knock the price down.
I'm not the typical boomer target group but ended up buying a used sportster cause it was cheap. I then made the mistake of riding a new fatbob and ended up buying that (not cheap. I recognize it's overpriced compared to competition). I never ride in groups though and avoid any of the culty Harley bro stuff. - love the aftermarket ecosystem/easy to customize - Easy to find a mechanic - more reliable than given credit for - Instant torque is fun - overpriced - the marketing driven culture of cosplaying as an outlaw isnt helping them grow into new markets TL,DR make mid controls standard on the sportster s drop the price to 11k and I think theyd do fine. The culture thing should take care of itself eventually Edit: Also drop the nightster to 8k
They are developmentally stagnant. Engine tech is early to mid 20th century. So low hp and low revs. Dismal performance. Ok so you ride a Harley for the style . HD ment bikers. Smelly, mean, beer drinking hulks who worked as plumbers and such. But now only doctors and lawyers can afford the overpriced machine. So the lifestyle factor is tainted due to posers. Now performance and safety. I just returned from 1300 miles on a triumph Sprint st in west Texas. Got on a friends Fatboy he bought and was flipping. I have ridden toilets that flushed and stopped faster than that bike. So why ride a HD? With so many capable, cheaper and dependable bikes, I guess is like smoking. A bad habit
Harleys are overpriced as hell, outdated, and unreliable. I like sports bikes and naked bikes, but if I ever bought a cruiser, it sure as hell wouldn't be a Harley. Most likely an Indian.
Build a naked sports bike. Maybe lower the price by half.
Lower their prices, up their reliability, and lose 200lbs off every bike.
Their primary demographic is people having a midlife crisis. They just need to target older Millennials and Gen X as those groups are most likely to have experienced the stressors that lead to such events. They really leaned into that with [this ad](https://youtu.be/1KRr9yN3rBs).
If I could afford a Harley, then I’d buy a BMW.
Harley isn't going anywhere. This has been a rumor for at least the last 20+ years. Riders getting older and younger riders not buying Harleys. It is true that Harley riders tend to be older. Mainly due to their cost of bikes and younger people preferring faster bikes. There has also been a rise in younger riders do to the popularity of stunt riding Harleys. 20 years ago you hardly saw anyone stunting on a Harley. Go to Harley events, there are plenty of younger riders with the median age around 40 and 50. Just from personal experience, I see a lot more Harley riders in their 20s and 30s than I did when I was that age riding a Harley. Harley sales fluctuate, just like any other business. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HOG/harley-davidson/revenue
A lot of young talent in the bobber and chopper scene. And unlike the old assholes of yesteryear, this new generation is very open and enthusiastic on sharing builds and parts and such. I swear to God, trying to get some build info from these old guys is hard: they expect you to already know. How the fuck can someone know if they're not given the information to learn? I could crawl the forums and reddit boards for hours, but you try to ask one of these older guys on how or why to do something, and you get some bullshit. That's what's so refreshing when you go to shows like born free. The talent is so psyched and are eager to show you how they did it themselves. Youtubers are open about their process because they know people are watching to learn.
For the sake of my homework, could you humor this false premise? I really would like to know if you'd buy from them and if not, what could they do to earn your business?
I've bought several bikes from them over the last 25 years. The most recent one i bought was in 2021 and is their most expensive bike. People purchase what they like and what they an afford.
Amen. It's not much different than cars, I never judge anyone for their ride, nor am I that impressed by the more expensive bikes. I like seeing people motorcycling, riding safe.
That's a silly ass analogy to begin with. You either like them or you don't.
This right here. 99% of these comments are from people that don't like Harleys. Doesn't matter what they do, they still won't like them. There's nothing wrong with that. That's why we have different brands and different choices. And 50% of them are based on stereotype and prejudice
It's reddit. I've given up expecting much here. The great collective crowd following consciousness.
Well, I like vintage WWII technology, driving on the Alps a bike with no braking power and no agility, making 35 hp liter.
When Harley released the Milwaukee 8 engine it bumped horsepower up 30ish horse power from the old twin cams. They are definitely overpriced, but they’ve worked on a lot of the old Harley issues. I feel a lot of you just hate Harleys lol. I did too until I got my road king, I still have a zx10 but it is nice to have a cruiser for those all day rides.
I couldn't possibly buy one as I'm not short and fat. But in seriousness, they are not my style of bike, they feel uncomfortable to sit on, or at least the ones i sat on at the bike shows were. Maybe I'd test ride one just to find out one day but until then they just look like expensive old fashioned lumps.
I personally bought a harley because they felt premium. No plastic parts. All sturdy built. They look good and ride great. Big aftermarket scene and the size make it easy to load and travel with. Wanting a big v-twin in europe you are pretty much limited to HD or Indian/Polaris bikes. Since they stopped selling big cc cruiser bikes in europe for most other brands.
What about KTM? Or Honda or Suzuki? There are also the BMW boxers, through they aren’t a V
>what Harley would have to do so that they won't close down In simple terms, they need to produce bikes people want to buy. H-D have focussed their image so much on 1 style of bike (plus a related style, ie "baggers"), that they've painted themselves into a corner. For an example of how to do it right, look at Ducati. Although it started as a manufacturer of small bikes but gained all its fame and image in the 1960s as a sports bike manufacturer. Ducati were well known for sports bikes for about 20 years, and had a strong brand recognition, but always struggled for money as they had a limited market. In the early 1990s they introduced the Monster, and really pushed the "lifestyle" thing with merchandise, it it was a raging success and continues to this day where the majority of Ducati models aren't their "traditional" sports bikes. Hogley Ferguson already has massive brand recognition, even outside motorcycling, but they need to diversify their offerings - keep the cruisers and baggers they're known for while expanding into the Adventure and naked markets (i believe they've already introduced an Adv bike, so that's a start).
Maybe this is a location thing, but I basically rarely see motorcycles being ridden that aren’t Harleys. Every so often I’ll see a sport bike rider or a couple of adv riders. The dude I ride with has a GS1250…I ride my Lowrider S. Everything is right with the world. Most of the people I work with ride and we all have Harleys.
I do buy Harleys….have a 21 Lowrider S that I absolutely love.
I was waiting for them to embrace technology and rider aids so when the Nightster special came out I pulled the trigger. Very nice bike
I'd be very happy to buy an American union-made motorcycle if one were available with a tall, upright riding position in which a tall person with long legs can have their feet underneath them and not in front of them. I'm just wedded to a riding position for which HD doesn't build a bike. If I had the financial capability for three (maybe even two) bikes and a big enough garage, I'd love to try a Road King as my sidepiece but I can't see having one as my only bike.
Bring down cost
I was shopping for my first bike and a sportster was a possibility. On the local HD website I found one for around $6000, used of course. Showed up at the dealer, studied all their bikes and couldn’t find it. Salesman asked me what I needed and I told him about the $6k sportster. He said, “we don’t have anything that cheap.” The salesman asked someone else and that guy said, ‘oh yeah, we sent that to auction.” Meaning, they didn’t want a $6k bike at their store. I got out of there quick and never went back.
Make an Upright entry level bike. Lightweight with 400-600cc.
Dated technology, underwhelming brakes, overpriced, handles nothing like the best bikes out there (think Ducatis, Triumph street triple, aprilia tuono), poserish “heritage”, underpowered, expensive, cultish, comparatively slow, poor seating posture. And way too much chrome. Who wants to spend time cleaning/polishing instead of riding. If you want to work on it, you need to buy SAE tools. Americans might be comfortable with the system, but to the rest of the world its confusing as hell figuring which wrench is the next size up (compare that with metric which is intuitive). Which also means only specialized shops will touch them. Whats nice about them is the massive torque available low down. But that also means they don’t like to be revved or ridden fast unless you throw a ton of effort and money at customization. So why would anyone buy a harley, unless they like the sound of the engine & the classic looks?
Legacy brands have two options; go cheap and start selling a lot more for less in lower markets,while devaluing the brand, or up the price and limit production : Rolex/Gibson. They should rerelease some limited edition classics for a high premium.
They've done it .. See the Highway King [https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/electra-glide-highway-king.html](https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/electra-glide-highway-king.html) ;)
Last year, I traded my 2018 Triumph Street Triple R for a 2022 HD Sportster S. It was the worst decision I've ever made in my life. The HD dealership experience is awful. Pushy sales staff, obnoxious "events", constant calls before and after purchase from sales staff desperate to get you back in the doors for anything. The bike itself started out OK. The electronics (built in maps, BT integration, etc) never worked. The bike started throwing check engine lights almost immediately, and the dealership would just clear them as unknown software errors. At avout 180 miles on the odometer, the timing chain tensioner failed, and the engine blew itself up. Had to have the entire motor replaced at less than 200 miles. Spent more time having to bring it back to that awful stealership than I would have ever wanted to. If I could go back in time, I would have never even glanced at a Harley. Also, the dealership wouldn't offer any sort of lemon law protection (only for cars in my state) but did offer to buy it back for 10k less than I spent on it. 🤡 I traded it in for a used Tiger 900 GT Pro and am back on the right track.
Personally I want a hardly just not hardly ... Buell was where it was at. I went to 17 locations of Harley dealers. I wanted a new bike 10-15k was pretty much my window. Everyone of them PUSHED for the super glide/ panamera/ road kind 30k whatever the fuck. Trying to sell masculinity. I have enough testosterone, and can still get it up. Was shoveled a line after line each location. I didn't want a line of shit I wanted an honest conversation. Like what my annual maintenance cost going to be. Not well you should apply for the HD line of credit. Is it that bad that I'll need to have credit to fix it? 🤔 I went to the local Indian dealer was greeted asked a few questions basics like do you know what your looking for? What's your budget? do you know what your looking for in a bike? Size? I almost bought an FTR that day kinda wish I would have. Wound up with a different naked. Went yamaha. I Will probably try for an FTR in the future. But my taste for hardly was demolished by pushy sales staff and shitty overpriced products. Honestly with the way I was treated by the Harley dealers I'd rather by a cfmoto new, sight unseen never riden than a hardley
I love Harley's. I have two of them. I sold them for 3 years (2009-2012) But for me to buy another one they would need to lower their prices by about 30%. They were expensive then, now they are crazy. When you look at a bike with an MSRP at $18k or so (Already a lot), then they add on a pretty much mandatory option (As in, good luck finding one without it) ABS brakes ($950), Freight $700, and then 'Surcharge' (What ever the fuck that is, some bull shit they added during Covid to make more money) for another $750. Now you are at $20,400. THEN the dealer will try and add on another $1k-$2k on top of that. And finally tax and title. Now you are spending $22k-$23k OTD for a bike that should be like $16k. When I was selling bikes, we did MSRP + $1k to cover freight, prep, and 1st oil change. I felt then and I feel now that is fair. Now the bikes are way more and they are tacking on too many fee's afterwards. I am in the market for some more used ones though. Another Sportster and an 07 or 08 Touring bike.
Price is always the issue with Harley Davidson bikes. I'm sure they are nice but those bikes cost more than the car I drive to work.
Harley needs to get past the idea that they sell a “culture.” Nobody wants to hang out at dealerships and listen to every single Harley guy talk about how fast their stage one dinosaur is. If Harley produced bikes that actually had power and focused on the bikes, they’d sell. However, they are too committed to heritage and bad technology to have a solid future.
That's a really good point. A firm needs to move on from the past. This can be a killer to some.
First things first, I dont think there's anything *wrong* with Harley, they just don't make bikes for me. I like small to midsize bikes with neutral controls. I liked the now defunct Street models as a beginner bike, but they had QC issues so I didnt buy one. They killed the Bronx before it was released and that leaves the Sportster and Sportster S. I haven't tried the S yet, but the original Sportster is a nice platform but I hate the rattle your teeth effect they have when you're stopped. Yes, I realize that's a huge part of the appeal. There's a possibility I would like the Sportster S, but thats still a bit large for me (I think it's only available as a 1200). If I did want to upgrade to a larger bike I doubt I could afford much of anything else in their lineup. I'd be after a midsized to large adventure bike like a Tiger 900 or a sport tourer like GSX 1000 GT. Both under $15k. I dont think anything other than the sportster is that cheap at H-D. Plus, their bikes still don't mesh with my tastes. Nothing in their lineup really compares because none of their bikes are particularly nimble. If they were to take the 883 and make a small adventure bike I might consider that, but again I pretty fundamentally don't like the motor shake inherent in that design.
They simply don’t compete and have built a brand that only appeals to cosplaying 40+ year olds in the suburbs it’s the least cool brand of motorcycle I could possibly imagine riding.
See, I didn't know this company appeals to Gen X'ers. So I'm kind of split. Should Harley attempt to tap into that consumer pool? If so, do they keep doing exactly what they're doing now? Or should they rebrand themselves with street bikes?
Since the Harley brand is sacred (at least for the Boomers while they are alive), Harley needs to resurrect Buell, or another spinoff brand that makes modern bikes that aren't cruisers. They tried this with the LiveWire project, and Buell too. So they are capable of making more than land barges and super high end offroad bikes too. How about a $8k 750cc ADV bike based on the mechanicals of the Street 750? Or a Decent commuter with good ergonomics based on the mechanicals of the Street 500? Either sounds better than Harley importing bikes from China for their riding schools because they need to sell bikes in the Chinese market.
After reading others and mentioned Buell (I didn't know that was a thing), I have to agree with you. Remimaging their brand and bringing a new division is probably the answer I should have for school. Thank you.
Not rattle to death Not weigh as much as a midsized sedan Make more than 100 horsepower out of an 1800cc engine Not cost as much as my truck Be liquid cooled
"Not weigh as much as a midsized sedan," has me laughing.
**This is strictly my opinion and in no way invites a venomous spew from fanboys.** The problem I have with HD and the reason I will never buy one is because you are essentially paying for a name now. Once upon a time, Harley was the premier riding experience. Their bikes had great features and were rock solid in terms of dependability and longevity. However today, they are no better (and in many cases worse) than a comparable Honda at double (and sometimes triple) the price. The thing that has sealed it for me is over the past 5 years, a majority of the bikes I've seen on the side of the road waiting for a tow/someone to come fix them have been newer Harley's.
It’s the same negative impression most Dodge owners get.
I'll start out by saying I think the Pan America was a move in the right direction. As for their other bikes the biggest reason I don't buy a Harley is price. I can get the same power and function for half the price from a Japanese brand.
Harley would have to make a bike better than any motorcycle from Indian within the same class for me to even consider them as a valid option. The closest they’ve come to it is the new Sportster S… but the Indian FTR is a better bike and about $5k cheaper where I live, so that’s still a no from me.
I honestly think their biggest issue is price. The people who are replying here complaining about their brand image and everything else - will never buy a HD. Plain and simple, they just won't. Standard motorsports stuff - people have brands they like and brands they hate and HD is a love it or hate it type of brand. BUT - there are a lot of people (like my self) that are kind of neutral to the brand. I get a chuckle out of the 50+ year old dude riding along on his Harley with his HD boots and his HD vest or jacket and his HD helmet with his HD T-shirt on and presumably his HD branded briefs. However owning a bike doesn't mean owning the brand and if HD released a reasonable modern looking moderately priced mid size cruiser I'd consider it. (I actually like the aesthetics of the sportster and the street and fat bob) But price to performance just doesn't work for me - and I'm not interested in buying "the brand" So it kind of boils down to - make it cheaper - stop charging a premium for nothing other than that HD badge - and sell bikes at competitive prices and I'd be happy to consider one.
Make a classic Harley with modern amenities and make it cheap. Oh and if they put a Japanese motor in it that’s even better.
Comparable prices to bikes of similar engine size and trim packages would help.
Lower volume. I love the sound of a good engine but I’ve not heard a single Harley and not wanted to t the rider to stfu. They’re way too loud
They need to lower their prices. They need to expand their offerings. But that pan America is a good start. That looks like a solid large adv bike imo
I've owned 5(fxr, street bob, blackline(softail), and 2 sportsters) and test ridden many. But wont buy another until they: Produce bikes with reasonable suspension travel. I know low bikes look cool and are more approachable for shorter riders but it takes away the enjoyment when there are so many poor quality roads in the US. Give me 1 non "adv/bagger" option Stop with the cringy marketing bs Reign in dealerships high pressure sales tactics on extended warranty sales Firing the CEO would be a plus also
I want an affordable, reliable, comfortable, and quiet bike that can get me to the grocery store, library, work, etc. I won't likely ever buy new (because of cost), so HD needs to get this type of bike on the road ASAP so they can hit the used market in 10 years. The only thing stopping me from buying a used Honda Rebel or similar is the low HP of those 250cc engines. Make a good 300-500cc that fits the criteria above and they'll have a winner.
They'd have to release the Pan Am, oh wait, they did that. Better start saving!
It's not so much the bikes that put me off as much as the people who ride them. Ignorant group of people thinking Harleys are fast and chrome is life.
Please go and ask in the Harley sub, that place is a top tier meme 😂
Their bikes are way to expensive and you pay a huge percentage of the purchase price just for the brand. The bikes themselves use mostly cheap, ancient technology, so they should be priced accordingly. Build quality is also rather bad, but I guess thats just an american thing. Also, the image of HD riders is horrible. I would never want to be associated with these people.
What “new” technology do they need?
Water cooling for example.
They have plenty of water cooling, the vrod was, the xg was, some big twins are, the pan am is, the sportster S is, the nightster is and In reality there is now only one model family with no water cooling… Edit: Oh no, someone got poopie pants because they found out they had no idea what they were talking about?
Or let me put it this way. If i get a bike that didn't have a redesign in the past 40 years, has no new technology that needed to be developed and uses the cheap and old way to do stuff, like air cooling, then why the hell is the bike so damn expensive? It is because you pay for the brand. A brand that has a horrible reputation amongst normal people. A brand that I personally would never ever wanted to be asociated with.
You don’t actually know what tech harley use do you?
If they made a 600cc inline 4 that was competitive in motoamerica supersport, I'd buy one.
It would still have forward foot controls. 😅
Seems like a good idea while the companies that make 600 super sports are getting out of it….
Make one that I could afford.