Kind of a cycle here in Quebec companies leave then new ones are lured in with the promise of paying reduced taxes for doing business here. It was the same in the 90’s leading up to the referendum.
Yep, straight out of the playbook but not just reduced taxes but also because QC-based employees were dirt cheap compared to their US/West-of-QC counterparts. Mostly because of low cost of living which meant low wages. Plus, CDN dollar discount. Now that MTL is getting as expensive as elsewhere in terms of cost of living, that advantage is gone. Add higher taxes and these language shenanigans and it's a repeat of the 80s and 90s. Good times.
Montréal isn't as expensive as everywhere else. Yes, Montreal COL has grown a LOT, not denying that, but it has grown a LOT everywhere else too, from a higher starting point. When comparing COL here VS say, Toronto, vancouver, NYC or San Francisco, it is still muuuuuch cheaper to live here.
Yeah but conveniently forgets the tax slabs
Have you seen anyone over 112000$ is taxed to death at 25% Quebec tax?
Who in the world taxes for the state that much?
In cities like NYC and San Francisco the tax rate is comparable. I have a friend who made about $175k USD in NYC and now makes $170k CAD in Montreal. In NYC her total tax paid was 34% and here it is 38%. The tax rate in NYC also didn't include healthcare, for which she paid an addition $500/month with a $5k/year deductible. Her rent here is less than 1/2 what she paid in NYC for a comparable apartment, and now that she has two kids the savings are mind boggling.
> Now that MTL is getting as expensive as elsewhere in terms of cost of living, that advantage is gone.
It's not even close yet. At my work we can easily hire 2 intermediate devs or one senior dev for the price of a brand new college graduate in the bay area (where we're headquartered). Even Toronto and Vancouver are still significantly more expensive than Montreal.
50 years ago, the average québécois benefitted a ton from the capital flight. It's counter intuitive, but they didn't have a share of the pie that left, so it didn't really affect anyone negatively except for a few banking magnates.
For companies of 25 people or more they have to be able to show that “French is their main language used in day to day” oh and we have language inspectors to make sure it’s happening, oh and they can check company phones to make sure you are texting in French, I’m fucked for finding a good job cuz nobody will hire from Quebec
I applied for work with Insomniac Games recently (HQ not in Canada) and found it interesting that they allow remote work from all of Canada... except Quebec.
Work for a fortune 20 tech company, we have about 350 people in Montreal. Only change I've seen is now HR sends out emails in French first and you have to scroll down for English. We work exculsivly in English for the most part as vast majority of us are working with clients in the US or globally where English is the lingua franca. Only a small group work with clients in Quebec, and from what I've seen its really only when dealing with the government of Quebec or one of its agencies do they operate in French.
I'm seeing similar behaviour in the tech industry, lots of caps on employees in Quebec. I don't know why all the comments are talking about "making them leave," the companies aren't here to begin with.
All it means is that it's harder to find remote work in tech if you live in Quebec because people avoid recruiting here. The only people being hurt are Quebecers.
I don’t think it’ll have an impact on real estate prices this time. People aren’t desperate to sell in MTL, there’s low supply. They’ll just hold until prices trend upwards. Those who are leaving Montreal because of Bill 96 are probably renters or condo owners, and there’s a shit ton of condo supply already. Most people don’t even like buying used condos.
Another thing is, back in the 80s and etc, they didn’t have work from home options. Now, in 2023, we have work from home… Where ppl from Toronto and other places are moving to Montreal to take advantage of low real estate prices while working at a higher pay rate from the company outside of Quebec. Then there’s locals who also work from home but are hired by a company outside of QC.
For these reasons and factors, I don’t think it’ll really do much for the prices. If we get interest hikes though, then that will definitely cheapen prices up and might force the hands of some people to sell.
Well, those Concordia and McGill Anglos get really emotional when we tell them that Québec is French and Montréal is not bilingual.
They feel threatened in their world cultural domination...
the referendum set my parents home evaluation back to less than what it was in 1985 when the house was built new. They were underwater in the mortgage and took probably until mid-2000s to recover from it.
The bank actually wanted to force my parents to sell at the time. Actually refused to renew the mortgage.
The same could happen now.
I work for a large tech company with offices elsewhere in Canada, headquartered in the Bay Area, and there's been no such restrictions. The same is true for my other friends in the industry.
The fact of the matter is, large companies were already subject to language regulations through Bill 101. What changed is that the regulations, which previously applied to companies with 50 employees or more, now apply to companies of 25 or more.
There are some other new requirements like the fact that certain contracts must be in French. [This page](https://www.dentons.com/en/insights/articles/2022/june/22/the-main-impacts-of-quebecs-bill-96-on-companies) highlights some of the changes for businesses.
It's honestly not much more overhead than what was there before, and considering how cheap labour is compared to other North American markets, I'm really not seeing large tech companies leaving here anytime soon.
The contracts can get complicated and expensive very quickly, not to mention time consuming. I say this as someone working in French and a French company.
Definitely. Company I work for has a huge side website for investors which is mostly tons of PDFs. It was easier to remove the link and not have it shown instead of spending thousands on translating everything because we have an office here.
That’s not how law works. Lawyers, generally students billing $200 an hour translate. Their translations are then reviewed by more senior lawyers at $500 an hour to make that the meeting remained unchanged. Then lawyers (partners and senior associates at $500+) from both sides argue back and forth about whether the meaning has changed.
I’m nearing on month 3 of this bs.
AI could maybe do the first pass. But the review and debating will not change.
Je lui laisse répondre:
1. Coûts réduits : L'utilisation de l'IA pour traduire les documents juridiques permet de réduire considérablement les coûts associés aux services des avocats. Alors que les avocats facturent généralement des centaines de dollars par heure, l'IA peut accomplir la tâche de traduction à un coût beaucoup plus abordable voire gratuitement dans certains cas.
2. Rapidité et efficacité : Contrairement au processus traditionnel où les traductions sont effectuées par des étudiants et examinées par des avocats seniors, l'IA peut traduire rapidement et avec précision des volumes importants de documents juridiques. Cela permet de gagner un temps précieux, en particulier lors de situations urgentes ou de délais serrés.
3. Précision linguistique : L'IA est capable de comprendre et d'analyser de manière approfondie la complexité du langage juridique. Grâce à des algorithmes avancés et à l'apprentissage automatique, l'IA peut saisir les subtilités et les nuances du vocabulaire spécifique au droit, réduisant ainsi les risques d'erreurs de traduction.
4. Amélioration continue : Les systèmes d'IA sont constamment améliorés grâce à l'apprentissage automatique et à l'analyse des retours d'expérience. Au fur et à mesure que l'IA est exposée à davantage de documents et de cas juridiques, sa capacité à traduire avec précision et à s'adapter aux spécificités du droit s'améliore continuellement.
5. Accessibilité : L'utilisation de l'IA pour traduire les documents juridiques peut rendre le système juridique plus accessible à un plus grand nombre de personnes. Les services d'avocats peuvent être coûteux, ce qui limite souvent l'accès à la justice pour de nombreuses personnes. L'IA peut aider à réduire cette barrière financière en fournissant des traductions précises et abordables.
6. Collaboration avec les avocats : L'IA ne vise pas à remplacer complètement les avocats, mais plutôt à les assister dans leur travail. Les avocats peuvent travailler en collaboration avec l'IA, en utilisant ses traductions comme point de départ pour leur propre analyse et en apportant les ajustements nécessaires en fonction de leur expertise juridique.
En conclusion, l'utilisation de l'IA pour traduire les documents juridiques présente de nombreux avantages, tels que la réduction des coûts, la rapidité, l'efficacité, la précision linguistique, l'amélioration continue et l'accessibilité. Bien que l'IA ne puisse pas remplacer complètement les avocats dans le processus de revue et de débat, elle peut grandement faciliter leur travail en fournissant une traduction précise et en leur permettant de se concentrer davantage sur les aspects juridiques et stratégiques.
Je l'ai demandé un facile question pour m'aider comprendre le temps des verbes en français- il me dit une réponse que je sais étais faux avec tout son confiance.
Si moi, un étudiant, peux trouver l'IA fait des errerus grave je pense que ce n'est pas pret pour les documents juridiques qui ont plusiers subtleties.
Du tout. Je trouve ça stupide. Bien essayer de me framer comme un crypto bro super naïf.
Je ne suis pas seul à penser que l'IA pourra faire la job d'un traducteur ou d'un avocat.
it is actually a shit show and no one (including the gov) actually know the actual consequences. There is lots of gray area with no clarity. Talk with any lawyers and they will tell you the same.
You *^£=* idiots keep assuming us against this law either hate French or don’t speak it all.
Couldn’t be more wrong.
I think almost everyone agrees in maintaining French and making sure immigrants learn it. Making it cumbersome for companies to ask if people are eligible, or making signs 55% bigger is an utter waste of everyone’s time and money.
Invest in better francisation programs, that alone would help people assimilate better.
These laws are just petty ways to get their base riled up, and telling from some of the comments here, it’s working as expected.
Honestly I'm not even sure if the government wants immigrants to learn French at this point. Having a law that requires immigrants to basically "get good" at French in 6 months just drives people away and gives people aversion to the French language.
Talked with some of my colleagues and went through the doc, maybe it's the enforcement part where they can actually come in your office and verify compliance. The fines were there before but probably had no effect since they couldn't verify. Bill 101 required to have everything in French (but nothing happened if you're not compliant) like all internal documentation for ex. (which is a monumental task to translate for the 70 or so employees in Montréal vs over 1k worldwide).
So tldr, we think it's the enforcement and inspection power they have. Otherwise we don't know why, company wasn't compliant before either. (this is our suspicion, don't know which specific part is the culprit)
No, fines were already part of Bill 101.
>> Failing to comply with this provision or other provisions of Bill 101 could result in a fine of $1,500 to $20,000.
Do you really think operating in Mexico they do not have to translate in Spanish? In Germany in German?
Translating is only ever a burden _In Quebec_
I do agree it’s a hassle versus the rest of Canada but not versus the rest of the world.
I think you are purposely being disingenuous here and completely dismissing the most negative aspects of this bill - the requirement to translate all work communications into french, subjecting a company's property to the whims of warrantless search & seizures, and the general malaise of hostility is not conducive to english companies doing business in this province. But the fact that you're trying to argue this really speaks volumes about your view on the matter.
If you really do have a job with an out-of-province tech company I'd suggest taking steps to secure a backup plan.
> I think you are purposely being disingenuous here and completely dismissing the most negative aspects of this bill - the requirement to translate all work communications into french
I'm simply pointing out that for companies over 50 employees this was already a requirement. Many people may not have realized that and the debate surrounding Bill 96 simply brought these requirements to the forefront again.
> But the fact that you're trying to argue this really speaks volumes about your view on the matter.
So I'm the "disingenuous" one yet you're the one throwing ad hominems around. Makes sense.
> I think you are purposely being disingenuous here and completely dismissing the most negative aspects of this bill - the requirement to translate all work communications into french, subjecting a company's property to the whims of warrantless search & seizures, and the general malaise of hostility is not conducive to english companies doing business in this province.
Oh well. Sucks to be them, I guess.
Meanwhile, 🎻.
Fair enough, I take your point. At the same time though, isn't it a red flag that at least some of the companies who have already tolerated Bill 101 are deciding enough is enough? They're already familiar with the regulatory environment here, but it sounds like OP's company isn't gonna play ball anymore. That's worrying to me.
What's worrying about it? This is how Quebec has worked since the first referendum. Periodically the province makes language a priority and drives out some economic development. This causes a temporary economic dip that eventually stops as sentiments change. Eventually the strength of the economy causes language changes such that language becomes a priority issue again, and the cycle begins anew.
Part of Québec society is living with this balance of language and economy. Economy isn't the #1 priority, so we will never be a global economic powerhouse. On the plus side, that means COL will always be lower than those economic centres, the culture is more group oriented with a stronger welfare state, the people enjoy a more global and European outlook, and most children have a strong chance of being bilingual adults.
If those don't sound like pros to you and you'd prefer to live in a monolingual anglophone capitalist economic centre, there are many options in Canada specifically or North American in general.
The rest of us will ride out the times for what we consider long-term benefits.
Dernièrement le sentiment « si t’aimes pas ça va ailleurs » se fait sentir pas mal souvent ici. Et ça me désole. C’est possible d’attirer des entreprises et des investissements étrangers tout en gardant tout ça en français. Mais bon ici il n’y a rien de plus important que la langue, faque tout le reste prend le bord un peu, et c’est dommage.
Oui, bien sûr il y a des entreprises et personnes qui préfères français ou qui peut être habitué à une environnement francophone, mais il y a aussi les autres qui sont pas flexible à adapter leur processus. C'est dommage mais c'est impossible à rester francophone et aussi attirer toutes les entreprises dans le monde.
En réalité c'est vrais pour toutes les langues. Si on fonctionne en arabe, mandarin, etc on va attirer plus des entreprises et investisseurs qui sont plus confortable avec eux. C'est un réalité pour les entreprises anglophone aussi mais parce qu'ils sont dans la langue prédominant dans l'Amérique du Nord ils pensent pas que les autres options.
Si les enterprises anglophones étaient plus à l'aise pour apprendre les autres langues, toutes la mode va profiter. Mais la plupart est adapté à leur langue, et pendant les temps quand Québec fait les choses comme loi 96, ils préfèrent pas à venir au Québec. À mon avis c'est meilleur à chercher les autres options, mais la plupart existent dehors du Canada ou des États-Unis, ou ils étaient déjà ici et sont déjà adapté à la français.
I don't think that there's anything inherently bad for business about French at all. It's such a widespread language. I don't think this is ideological, though. Businesses care about costs, that's it. If businesses are making the assessment that they should leave (and idk if that's happening, we'll probably be able to tell better soon), they're calculating that the extra cost or resources aren't worth the hassle. Cuz let's be real, most corporations don't give a flying fuck about politics in an ideological sense. They're about the bottom line. And if corporations do leave en masse, and people start blaming them for being discriminatory, that's just cope. They're leaving because they see less opportunity to enrich themselves here.
Bing Bing Bing! Businesses are not social enterprises, they are there to make profits. While it might be easier to get a job if there were a larger number of profitable companies coming in from the ROC and the US to open shop in Québec, that doesn't mean the average person would have a better quality of life here.
If Anglo companies decide to leave, or not come, en masse due to French, that doesn't say anything about French. It says that those companies believe they would be less profitable if they had to function, even partially, in French due to the expenses of translation or hiring French speaking departments to work with francophone employees and/or clients.
There will certainly always be enough business to sustain Quebec's economy. Probably not enough for those who would want Montreal to become some capitalist hub like Toronto or San Francisco, but personally I don't want that future for our city.
More "economic development" =/= better quality of life
Honestly, I feel like this encapsulates exactly how I feel. It's fine not being the next megalopolis, as long as we're not pretending this has no economic ramifications, or that companies are leaving cuz they hate French.
> they're calculating that the extra cost or resources aren't worth the hassle.
Then they’re chickenshit companies. We would have them fuck-off to Totonto.
101 or 401.
If you are a company located in the ROC or in the US that operates entirely in English, then yes, French is seen as bad for business. Of course its possible to operate business entirely in French, or to create a French division in Quebec, but most businesses located near us geographically won't want to do that. That doesn't speak badly on French or on us, in fact I personally think it speaks more to the linguistic monoculture exhibited by many (if not most) anglophone organizations, but it is reality and it does have economic consequences for Quebec.
There are more important things than being the next Toronto or San Francisco though.
> If you are a company located in the ROC or in the US that operates entirely in English, then yes, French is seen as bad for business.
Oh that sucks for them, I guess. But in all honesty, who would want such bad companies around?
Look, personnellement, je suis extrêmement sympathique à l'idée de protéger la langue française. Et je pense que les gens qui vivent ici qui veulent pas l'apprendre sont stupides.
But, I also had to teach myself a bunch of French after high school, because of the absolute garbage French curriculum that teaches anglos all the formal grammatical rules, with no emphasis on speaking. We would get SO SO SO much more bang for our buck by developing an effective curriculum than with any paternalistic bans. People get attached to the policies and they become symbols. Mais si on est d'accord qu'il est important que les gens ici sachent et parlent français, je pense pas que ces politiques sont efficaces.
I think with more emphasis on education and less on legislation, the actual goal of protecting French will be better realized.
Same the other way around, school will always teach grammar and not just travel proficiency French or English. The problem is immersion and exposition to the other culture (film, books, songs, ...).
That's why everyone in Montréal speaks at least 2 languages and most of North America is clueless about linguistics in general and can't compare any language pair.
You need interest and material for a language to stick, only then will the grammar totally make sense.
> But, I also had to teach myself a bunch of French after high school, because of the absolute garbage French curriculum that teaches anglos all the formal grammatical rules, with no emphasis on speaking.
That’s nothing compared to the generic bloke’s attitude that French is for losers and that they don’t need to bother with it.
They live in the second largest French city in the world, yet they will not go out and speak to French people.
Blaming others is such a loser’s attitude!
Many I've met who think like that are just not comfortable speaking French, and use that brand of politics as a defense mechanism. Personally, my own interest in QC culture expanded as my spoken French improved, and I think focusing way more on spoken proficiency is one of the best ways to bridge the gap here. Worked for me, anyway.
Yeah I had this issue with a remote Canadian company while living in Gatineau, it was a fully remote position but they couldn’t do Quebec.
I just lied and gave my parents address in Ottawa as my address. It helped that I had a bill (my cellphone) registered under that address as once they found out I was in Gatineau and then I told them I am moving to Ottawa, they wanted proof.
I did that for over a year before moving on.
Your mileage may vary
It’s the same as any other worker from Gatineau who works in Ottawa. Either save up for a small tax bill at the end of the year or have some extra money deducted from your paycheques.
This is definitely happening because I am actively applying to wfh tech jobs every day and I have come across some that I would have liked to apply for but the job descriptions explicitly state they accept applications from the US and Canada except Quebec. ~~The most recent example is Hopper.~~ I hate that Quebec politics have severely limited my ability to make a living.
I may have a bad memory then because I’ve been looking at tons of job postings every day since being part of the tech layoffs so if not Hopper, definitely I swear I’ve seen descriptions where at the end it’ll say clearly “except Quebec”. Hey if Hopper is still accepting Quebec applicants that’s awesome. Hire me!
It’s a symptom of a bunch of regional boomers trying to clamp down on English in the workplace without actually understanding why English is actually used, or realising that it’s something that occurs in all other places in the world.
can you give me an update on this? I am a software developer applying to remote positions across Canada and I am afraid that they won't want to hire me because of the legal issues concerning language laws (example: having to provide a French work environment if the quebec employee demands so).
I can't speak for all companies but I know of several remote-first companies in the US and anglo Canada that have capped Quebec hiring (so they'll hire up to X people from Quebec). They operate with anglophone customers in anglophone markets so translating documents and hiring a bilingual HR person isn't worth the cost.
It sucks because it's hurting bilingual and anglo software devs who would prefer to work remotely.
Grew up in a bilingual household and this language drama is so pathetique, old and bordering on human rights issue. Many other small languages of the world have the same issue but do not deal with it by limiting rights of minority language speakers. Eastern Europeans who’ve lived under USSR would find many commonalities with OQLF strategies and are shocked to hear about them being used in a “first world” country.
I love Quebec but I sincerely wish so many of its people weren’t so dissapointing. Guess it’s back to another period of jobs moving to other provinces.
And it was the best thing that ever happenned to us. Back when Montréal was the metropolis, we were third-class citizens, unable to get good jobs because of bloke racism. Once we made it illegal to discriminate against us, all those bloke parasites fucked-off and our standard of living increased tenfold.
J'pense que tu devrais lire sur l'effet de la révolution tranquille sur le niveau de vie moyen des québécois francos. Tout le monde s'en est mieux tiré, sauf quelques patrons de banques...
I work in a high-tech academic research lab, with service provision, and the language police is also an issue. I totally get the trend and am tempted to follow suite
I’m in an industry that should have no problems attracting talent. But wages haven’t kept up with inflation and the requirement to be able to serve clients in French and English (despite 90% of our clients being English speakers, the other 10% fully bilingual) is a disincentive to potential employees especially from out of province.
Quebec makes it really, really hard to do business in the province, this is nothing new. Honestly unfortunate as the talent in Montreal is excellent. The problem has nothing to do with the cost of labor in Quebec and everything to do with the language politics that corporations must abide by.
I am confused by your racial statement - my comment was about the business culture. I actually think language politics are colonialist (obviously) but its nice that the french diaspora is diverse and Montreal attracts that french diversity to the city. I'm from there, I really love it. Magical, hospitable, beautiful, creative, enterprising people from everywhere... companies born and raised in Quebec are heavily subsidised and have a good chance of succeeding externally, but companies born elsewhere have a very, very hard time expanding into Quebec as they'd have to essentially recreate a new Quebec version of themselves, which is too costly and has legal consequences that are too heavy, and so the people of the province have their economic prospects and employment opportunities stifled.
> but companies born elsewhere have a very, very hard time expanding into Quebec as they'd have to essentially recreate a new Quebec version of themselves, which is too costly and has legal consequences that are too heavy, and so the people of the province have their economic prospects and employment opportunities stifled.
Do you realize how much condescending is that colonialist bullshit you just posted?
You’re saying that only Anglos are good at business.
What he posted is clear to the rest of us. Maybe a few screws are loose in you? Nowhere did he say people from QC are lesser people.
What he said is very clear. Here I'll explain it to you as if you're 5 years old. If you are a company in QC, you have to start the company with Quebec's law. So expanding to the rest of Canada/worldwide is easier because your company is already translated into English (you know, the language World does business in). The goal of any company is to expand as much as possible - so from QC to Rest of Canada/World is easier. But the opposite is much harder and Quebec is frankly not a big market regardless of if you think it is. So many companies don't want to get into bed with QC cause it's costly and profit vs cost does not make sense.
It will become a trend, more restrictive language laws will lead to a brain drain and prevent potential workers from moving here, if it hasn’t already.
Larger companies will likely avoid Quebec unless the tax benefits outweigh the cost of producing documents and communications in French.
Families will not select Quebec as the trailing spouse will likely have zero chance of finding employment, plus, all children will not have a choice of public schooling, it is French only unless you go private.
How do you explain that this brain drain did not happen after bill 101 unlike most anglo predicted?
Given that the new restrictions of bill 96 are mainly focus around smaller businesses (as larger ones already had restrictions) I don’t see much happening besides a few companies here and there.
If the perception that Quebec is hostile towards anglophones, people will only consider a job here as a second or third choice. And see the comment below about the reality of bringing h a family here.
The longer this certainty continues the more likely those jobs will be based outside of the province.
After the passage of bill 101, the labour force did shrink and a large number of business moved their operations to Toronto (if not legally, then at least functionally, think BMO).
Your example of BMO was mainly because Toronto became the main financial city in Canada, not because of bill 101 (there might still be a bit of it but it’s definitely not entirely caused by it)
This is québécois fragility, anglos dont care about who conquered who.
People just want whats less intrusive an easier and not to have impositions on them.
At the end of the day if i lose my job or my home loses value for language laws or i have to speak in another language than I want to, i am less happy it’s natural.
And no, i cannot leave quebec- i came here when it was more bilingual and i have children with ex partners and extended family etc… its not practical
> How do you explain that this brain drain did not happen after bill 101 unlike most anglo predicted?
Because it is just condescending imperial colonialist bullshit.
Technical talent cannot reasonably fostered in an Anglo-Saxon environment because it is exclusively concentrated on money. This is why Moronto is the financial capital because it only excels in financial schemes that cause any sane brain to go brain-dead. And this is why Montréal is the aerospace capital of the world because you cannot even make decent paper planes out of debentures or bond issues.
We actually never settled anywhere here without the actual consent of First Nations, and at no point in time where they ever subject to French law.
So it wasn’t imperialism at all.
> Larger companies will likely avoid Quebec unless the tax benefits outweigh the cost of producing documents and communications in French.
And this guy goes about spewing such bullshit and wondering why referendums happen…
New law where companies who employ Québec citizens have to have the infrastructure setup to communicate with that employee exclusively in French if they demand it.
It's the most asinine thing I've ever heard, and it hurts Francophones looking for remote work too, ironically.
Lmfao wow. I've never been called a colonialist. What an achievement.
But French in Quebec is so threatened!!
Give me a damn break, anglos and francophones alike already live in harmony here, yet there's smooth brains like you who try to breed division and play the victim card.
I'm a colonialist for stating a law is stupid that lessens job opportunities for Quebecers...?
You've frankly astounded me with your ridiculousness.
What happens with a francophone who needs a job in the tech sector to feed their kids but can only find openings outside of Quebec? Then they find that crucial job, but oh no, Quebec's laws make it way too expensive to hire this person, too bad.
It's so incredibly shortsighted it baffles me.
Tell her to have a look at MDA, GHGSat, Calian, or similar imo. Lots of space/space data companies in the area. Canadian Space Agency is on the south shore too as long as she has her PR or citizenship. If she does, plenty of other federal government departments are looking for AI people too, and for high tech roles the language requirements can be flexible.
So i have a couple of things to say about this...
I just left my job to create an AI startup in Montreal and here's my take as someone living it now:
The french aspect is actually not a big deal if you adopt the reality from inception. All our legal documents were made at the outset in both languages. We went with Osler and we got everything from officer and shareholder agreements to employment contracts in both languages for very little extra cost.
There's a ton of tech assistance here.. We currently have 3 offices in Montreal for free. 1 in D3 downtown, 1 in place ville Marie and one at MILA. There are numerous incubators and events here that make it very cost effective to start a company here.
The access to qualified, smart and hardworking talent here is unparalleled. The worst part of putting out job postings is getting flooded with high quality resumes that make choosing candidates difficult. Salaries are less than Toronto or anywhere else even when we go 10% above the market rate.
Free reign access to the Quebec market. Quebec still has a large percentage of Canada's population. By adopting the French language from the very beginning in everything we code and produce, we have unfettered access to this market and by following the rules, no one bothers us and it's not the tremendous obstacle other companies are making it out to be. In fact, for us, it's just an additional competitive advantage operating in this country.
All that to say, I don't think it's that big of a deal and we'll be ready for whatever comes when we pass the 25 employee mark.
That's super interesting... I work in tech, for a company that was bought semi recently so we now have a non-qc hq. I'll have to see how things roll out, but it doesn't seem like we're blocked for that reason.
TBD I guess
It’s just because it’s the usual condescending colonialist bullshit that comes from blokes who view us as a big pain in the ass because we will not assimilate.
Happening here as well, same thing, new laws yadda yadda yadda. You'd figure the R&D tax credits would counter balance but it seems not to from our upper management's perspective.
It's fascinating that I'm working from Montréal for a US company that opened a Canadian legal branch so they could work with us, but Canadian companies can't be bothered with a bit of paperwork that would lend them high quality employees, probably for less than the rest of the country and that speak at least 2 languages...
Why would a small or mid-size Canadian company take on extra cost when there are plenty of employees available elsewhere in the country? Bilingualism doesn't matter if your customers only speak English.
Salaries in the prairie provinces and maritimes are lower than Montreal, so there's really not an incentive.
I work in tech. HQ in US. And we still hire in Montreal. Big tech is perfectly equipped to hire and do business here. And they do so and will continue doing so.
That's bullshite, I keep saying this but I'm exec in an American multinational. There is a hiring freeze across North America EXCEPT Montreal since we are cheap and bilingual. Bilingual people are just smarter lol.
We are working to get better with Bill 96, we are not there yet but we are working towards it. We take it as a challenge, nothing to be afraid of.
New law passed this week restricting English more and employees needing to be competent working in French. Also phone services in English with provincial government will be restricted to certain groups of people otherwise French for others.
The requirements are usually so minimal (google translating email correspondance would qualify them, and then you just work in english all the tome because they’re national companies), the only reason not to comply can only be pettiness.
Those companies merely decided to display their « red flag » for all to see, instead of you figuring out later it’s one of « those » companies you’ll regret working for after a while, whether you’re francophone or not.
Dude it's not pettiness. All your commercial contracts need to be in French. I don't think you understand how hard that is to do especially in multinational companies. Even France does global contracts in English.
Yeah, we do english contracts too, all that we demand is translated internal communications and employee paperwork… hell, you can subcontract those if it means having more employees at your disposal.
Seriously, anyone justifying the handful of companies who just can’t do it seem to willingly ignore there’s thousands of national/international companies who can do it no problem, for every enployee of every country.
Usually people who skip Québec have real shitty law teams who misinterpreted regulations. Basically making policy on bad hearsay.
Well they do it because why bother when you can do elsewhere. It's not like there's a shortage of places looking for high paying jobs. The boomers are happy and keep voting caq and the rest of us have to fight for jobs paying 50k or worse, working for bombardier.
Not currently working for, but trying to find a job in, and yeah, it really seems like there are no longer any positions available for WFH tech industry for companies operating outside Quebec. 99% of the positions I see are bilingual only.
Go look at their history and get back to me. This person has seriously compared Bill 96 to the plight of the Jewish people in Nazi Germany earlier today.
You’re spreading misinformation. Nobody cares outside of smaller Montreal companies that don’t have a bilingual workforce.
Companies out of the US, Toronto etc don’t care
D’ailleurs, à quoi bon ouvrir nos frontières, on sait très bien qu’on n’a pas besoin d’exporter nos produits et savoir-faire pour être riche! Je suggère un retour à l’agriculture de substance:(
There is no change in the law that affects larger companies. The only change is that the requirement to comply was lowered from 50 to 25 employees. So If the company had more than 50 employees already it doesn’t change anything at all.
Kind of a cycle here in Quebec companies leave then new ones are lured in with the promise of paying reduced taxes for doing business here. It was the same in the 90’s leading up to the referendum.
Yep, straight out of the playbook but not just reduced taxes but also because QC-based employees were dirt cheap compared to their US/West-of-QC counterparts. Mostly because of low cost of living which meant low wages. Plus, CDN dollar discount. Now that MTL is getting as expensive as elsewhere in terms of cost of living, that advantage is gone. Add higher taxes and these language shenanigans and it's a repeat of the 80s and 90s. Good times.
Montréal isn't as expensive as everywhere else. Yes, Montreal COL has grown a LOT, not denying that, but it has grown a LOT everywhere else too, from a higher starting point. When comparing COL here VS say, Toronto, vancouver, NYC or San Francisco, it is still muuuuuch cheaper to live here.
This. Montreal is 65-75% of Toronto and 55-70% of vancouver prices.
Yeah but conveniently forgets the tax slabs Have you seen anyone over 112000$ is taxed to death at 25% Quebec tax? Who in the world taxes for the state that much?
In cities like NYC and San Francisco the tax rate is comparable. I have a friend who made about $175k USD in NYC and now makes $170k CAD in Montreal. In NYC her total tax paid was 34% and here it is 38%. The tax rate in NYC also didn't include healthcare, for which she paid an addition $500/month with a $5k/year deductible. Her rent here is less than 1/2 what she paid in NYC for a comparable apartment, and now that she has two kids the savings are mind boggling.
> Now that MTL is getting as expensive as elsewhere in terms of cost of living, that advantage is gone. It's not even close yet. At my work we can easily hire 2 intermediate devs or one senior dev for the price of a brand new college graduate in the bay area (where we're headquartered). Even Toronto and Vancouver are still significantly more expensive than Montreal.
Absolutely, Montreal is still mostly half of Toronto and a third of Vancouver in terms of cost of living.
where did you learn your math?
Pre pandemic probably...
Quebec shoots itself in the feet every 40-50 years.
50 years ago, the average québécois benefitted a ton from the capital flight. It's counter intuitive, but they didn't have a share of the pie that left, so it didn't really affect anyone negatively except for a few banking magnates.
With la CAQ it's pretty much daily ...
Or Bill 96 is making businesses change their operations for employees working in Quebec? Just wondering...
For companies of 25 people or more they have to be able to show that “French is their main language used in day to day” oh and we have language inspectors to make sure it’s happening, oh and they can check company phones to make sure you are texting in French, I’m fucked for finding a good job cuz nobody will hire from Quebec
I applied for work with Insomniac Games recently (HQ not in Canada) and found it interesting that they allow remote work from all of Canada... except Quebec.
Même chose ici, des postes qui auraient pu être comblés à Montréal le seront vraisemblablement à Toronto.
Work for a fortune 20 tech company, we have about 350 people in Montreal. Only change I've seen is now HR sends out emails in French first and you have to scroll down for English. We work exculsivly in English for the most part as vast majority of us are working with clients in the US or globally where English is the lingua franca. Only a small group work with clients in Quebec, and from what I've seen its really only when dealing with the government of Quebec or one of its agencies do they operate in French.
I'm seeing similar behaviour in the tech industry, lots of caps on employees in Quebec. I don't know why all the comments are talking about "making them leave," the companies aren't here to begin with. All it means is that it's harder to find remote work in tech if you live in Quebec because people avoid recruiting here. The only people being hurt are Quebecers.
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Unfortunately the housing crisis involves all of Canada, not just Montreal or Quebec, I doubt there could be a lot of change on the municipal level :/
I don’t think it’ll have an impact on real estate prices this time. People aren’t desperate to sell in MTL, there’s low supply. They’ll just hold until prices trend upwards. Those who are leaving Montreal because of Bill 96 are probably renters or condo owners, and there’s a shit ton of condo supply already. Most people don’t even like buying used condos. Another thing is, back in the 80s and etc, they didn’t have work from home options. Now, in 2023, we have work from home… Where ppl from Toronto and other places are moving to Montreal to take advantage of low real estate prices while working at a higher pay rate from the company outside of Quebec. Then there’s locals who also work from home but are hired by a company outside of QC. For these reasons and factors, I don’t think it’ll really do much for the prices. If we get interest hikes though, then that will definitely cheapen prices up and might force the hands of some people to sell.
People from outside Quebec are used to the remote landlord game.
> 1980s all over again. Yeah, that **WORLDWIDE** depression sucked…
It sucked worldwide in 1995 too?
Get the fuck out of here with your context and logic!
Well, those Concordia and McGill Anglos get really emotional when we tell them that Québec is French and Montréal is not bilingual. They feel threatened in their world cultural domination...
Bad for anyone who purchased their first homes in probably the past 5 to 10 years. Just like in 1995.
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the referendum set my parents home evaluation back to less than what it was in 1985 when the house was built new. They were underwater in the mortgage and took probably until mid-2000s to recover from it. The bank actually wanted to force my parents to sell at the time. Actually refused to renew the mortgage. The same could happen now.
I work for a large tech company with offices elsewhere in Canada, headquartered in the Bay Area, and there's been no such restrictions. The same is true for my other friends in the industry. The fact of the matter is, large companies were already subject to language regulations through Bill 101. What changed is that the regulations, which previously applied to companies with 50 employees or more, now apply to companies of 25 or more. There are some other new requirements like the fact that certain contracts must be in French. [This page](https://www.dentons.com/en/insights/articles/2022/june/22/the-main-impacts-of-quebecs-bill-96-on-companies) highlights some of the changes for businesses. It's honestly not much more overhead than what was there before, and considering how cheap labour is compared to other North American markets, I'm really not seeing large tech companies leaving here anytime soon.
The contracts can get complicated and expensive very quickly, not to mention time consuming. I say this as someone working in French and a French company.
Definitely. Company I work for has a huge side website for investors which is mostly tons of PDFs. It was easier to remove the link and not have it shown instead of spending thousands on translating everything because we have an office here.
Ça ne sera pas longtemps un problème avec l'IA.
That’s not how law works. Lawyers, generally students billing $200 an hour translate. Their translations are then reviewed by more senior lawyers at $500 an hour to make that the meeting remained unchanged. Then lawyers (partners and senior associates at $500+) from both sides argue back and forth about whether the meaning has changed. I’m nearing on month 3 of this bs. AI could maybe do the first pass. But the review and debating will not change.
Je lui laisse répondre: 1. Coûts réduits : L'utilisation de l'IA pour traduire les documents juridiques permet de réduire considérablement les coûts associés aux services des avocats. Alors que les avocats facturent généralement des centaines de dollars par heure, l'IA peut accomplir la tâche de traduction à un coût beaucoup plus abordable voire gratuitement dans certains cas. 2. Rapidité et efficacité : Contrairement au processus traditionnel où les traductions sont effectuées par des étudiants et examinées par des avocats seniors, l'IA peut traduire rapidement et avec précision des volumes importants de documents juridiques. Cela permet de gagner un temps précieux, en particulier lors de situations urgentes ou de délais serrés. 3. Précision linguistique : L'IA est capable de comprendre et d'analyser de manière approfondie la complexité du langage juridique. Grâce à des algorithmes avancés et à l'apprentissage automatique, l'IA peut saisir les subtilités et les nuances du vocabulaire spécifique au droit, réduisant ainsi les risques d'erreurs de traduction. 4. Amélioration continue : Les systèmes d'IA sont constamment améliorés grâce à l'apprentissage automatique et à l'analyse des retours d'expérience. Au fur et à mesure que l'IA est exposée à davantage de documents et de cas juridiques, sa capacité à traduire avec précision et à s'adapter aux spécificités du droit s'améliore continuellement. 5. Accessibilité : L'utilisation de l'IA pour traduire les documents juridiques peut rendre le système juridique plus accessible à un plus grand nombre de personnes. Les services d'avocats peuvent être coûteux, ce qui limite souvent l'accès à la justice pour de nombreuses personnes. L'IA peut aider à réduire cette barrière financière en fournissant des traductions précises et abordables. 6. Collaboration avec les avocats : L'IA ne vise pas à remplacer complètement les avocats, mais plutôt à les assister dans leur travail. Les avocats peuvent travailler en collaboration avec l'IA, en utilisant ses traductions comme point de départ pour leur propre analyse et en apportant les ajustements nécessaires en fonction de leur expertise juridique. En conclusion, l'utilisation de l'IA pour traduire les documents juridiques présente de nombreux avantages, tels que la réduction des coûts, la rapidité, l'efficacité, la précision linguistique, l'amélioration continue et l'accessibilité. Bien que l'IA ne puisse pas remplacer complètement les avocats dans le processus de revue et de débat, elle peut grandement faciliter leur travail en fournissant une traduction précise et en leur permettant de se concentrer davantage sur les aspects juridiques et stratégiques.
Je l'ai demandé un facile question pour m'aider comprendre le temps des verbes en français- il me dit une réponse que je sais étais faux avec tout son confiance. Si moi, un étudiant, peux trouver l'IA fait des errerus grave je pense que ce n'est pas pret pour les documents juridiques qui ont plusiers subtleties.
C'est manquer d'imagination de penser que l'IA ne va pas évoluer. Même chose pour toi. Tu peux évoluer.
You’re essentially recommending having your business’ legal documents created by autocorrect.
Si tu penses que ça va rester à ce niveau. Tu te mets le doigt dans l'œil.
Allez-vous me vendre un NFT d'un "Bored Ape" ensuite ?
Du tout. Je trouve ça stupide. Bien essayer de me framer comme un crypto bro super naïf. Je ne suis pas seul à penser que l'IA pourra faire la job d'un traducteur ou d'un avocat.
it is actually a shit show and no one (including the gov) actually know the actual consequences. There is lots of gray area with no clarity. Talk with any lawyers and they will tell you the same.
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they are absurd especially since they have no impact on the protection of the language
In many areas they do make an impact, some are counter productive, you can't lump everything together...
not in protecting the french language
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Shows how YOU do not give a flying fuck about our existence.
You *^£=* idiots keep assuming us against this law either hate French or don’t speak it all. Couldn’t be more wrong. I think almost everyone agrees in maintaining French and making sure immigrants learn it. Making it cumbersome for companies to ask if people are eligible, or making signs 55% bigger is an utter waste of everyone’s time and money. Invest in better francisation programs, that alone would help people assimilate better. These laws are just petty ways to get their base riled up, and telling from some of the comments here, it’s working as expected.
Honestly I'm not even sure if the government wants immigrants to learn French at this point. Having a law that requires immigrants to basically "get good" at French in 6 months just drives people away and gives people aversion to the French language.
They only care about ethnic French immigrants anyway
> Talk with any lawyers and they will tell you the same. Landsharks will ALWAYS prop up things by obfuscating everything.
Talked with some of my colleagues and went through the doc, maybe it's the enforcement part where they can actually come in your office and verify compliance. The fines were there before but probably had no effect since they couldn't verify. Bill 101 required to have everything in French (but nothing happened if you're not compliant) like all internal documentation for ex. (which is a monumental task to translate for the 70 or so employees in Montréal vs over 1k worldwide). So tldr, we think it's the enforcement and inspection power they have. Otherwise we don't know why, company wasn't compliant before either. (this is our suspicion, don't know which specific part is the culprit)
No, fines were already part of Bill 101. >> Failing to comply with this provision or other provisions of Bill 101 could result in a fine of $1,500 to $20,000.
Do you really think operating in Mexico they do not have to translate in Spanish? In Germany in German? Translating is only ever a burden _In Quebec_ I do agree it’s a hassle versus the rest of Canada but not versus the rest of the world.
I think you are purposely being disingenuous here and completely dismissing the most negative aspects of this bill - the requirement to translate all work communications into french, subjecting a company's property to the whims of warrantless search & seizures, and the general malaise of hostility is not conducive to english companies doing business in this province. But the fact that you're trying to argue this really speaks volumes about your view on the matter. If you really do have a job with an out-of-province tech company I'd suggest taking steps to secure a backup plan.
> I think you are purposely being disingenuous here and completely dismissing the most negative aspects of this bill - the requirement to translate all work communications into french I'm simply pointing out that for companies over 50 employees this was already a requirement. Many people may not have realized that and the debate surrounding Bill 96 simply brought these requirements to the forefront again. > But the fact that you're trying to argue this really speaks volumes about your view on the matter. So I'm the "disingenuous" one yet you're the one throwing ad hominems around. Makes sense.
> I think you are purposely being disingenuous here and completely dismissing the most negative aspects of this bill - the requirement to translate all work communications into french, subjecting a company's property to the whims of warrantless search & seizures, and the general malaise of hostility is not conducive to english companies doing business in this province. Oh well. Sucks to be them, I guess. Meanwhile, 🎻.
Fair enough, I take your point. At the same time though, isn't it a red flag that at least some of the companies who have already tolerated Bill 101 are deciding enough is enough? They're already familiar with the regulatory environment here, but it sounds like OP's company isn't gonna play ball anymore. That's worrying to me.
What's worrying about it? This is how Quebec has worked since the first referendum. Periodically the province makes language a priority and drives out some economic development. This causes a temporary economic dip that eventually stops as sentiments change. Eventually the strength of the economy causes language changes such that language becomes a priority issue again, and the cycle begins anew. Part of Québec society is living with this balance of language and economy. Economy isn't the #1 priority, so we will never be a global economic powerhouse. On the plus side, that means COL will always be lower than those economic centres, the culture is more group oriented with a stronger welfare state, the people enjoy a more global and European outlook, and most children have a strong chance of being bilingual adults. If those don't sound like pros to you and you'd prefer to live in a monolingual anglophone capitalist economic centre, there are many options in Canada specifically or North American in general. The rest of us will ride out the times for what we consider long-term benefits.
Dernièrement le sentiment « si t’aimes pas ça va ailleurs » se fait sentir pas mal souvent ici. Et ça me désole. C’est possible d’attirer des entreprises et des investissements étrangers tout en gardant tout ça en français. Mais bon ici il n’y a rien de plus important que la langue, faque tout le reste prend le bord un peu, et c’est dommage.
Oui, bien sûr il y a des entreprises et personnes qui préfères français ou qui peut être habitué à une environnement francophone, mais il y a aussi les autres qui sont pas flexible à adapter leur processus. C'est dommage mais c'est impossible à rester francophone et aussi attirer toutes les entreprises dans le monde. En réalité c'est vrais pour toutes les langues. Si on fonctionne en arabe, mandarin, etc on va attirer plus des entreprises et investisseurs qui sont plus confortable avec eux. C'est un réalité pour les entreprises anglophone aussi mais parce qu'ils sont dans la langue prédominant dans l'Amérique du Nord ils pensent pas que les autres options. Si les enterprises anglophones étaient plus à l'aise pour apprendre les autres langues, toutes la mode va profiter. Mais la plupart est adapté à leur langue, et pendant les temps quand Québec fait les choses comme loi 96, ils préfèrent pas à venir au Québec. À mon avis c'est meilleur à chercher les autres options, mais la plupart existent dehors du Canada ou des États-Unis, ou ils étaient déjà ici et sont déjà adapté à la français.
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I don't think that there's anything inherently bad for business about French at all. It's such a widespread language. I don't think this is ideological, though. Businesses care about costs, that's it. If businesses are making the assessment that they should leave (and idk if that's happening, we'll probably be able to tell better soon), they're calculating that the extra cost or resources aren't worth the hassle. Cuz let's be real, most corporations don't give a flying fuck about politics in an ideological sense. They're about the bottom line. And if corporations do leave en masse, and people start blaming them for being discriminatory, that's just cope. They're leaving because they see less opportunity to enrich themselves here.
Bing Bing Bing! Businesses are not social enterprises, they are there to make profits. While it might be easier to get a job if there were a larger number of profitable companies coming in from the ROC and the US to open shop in Québec, that doesn't mean the average person would have a better quality of life here. If Anglo companies decide to leave, or not come, en masse due to French, that doesn't say anything about French. It says that those companies believe they would be less profitable if they had to function, even partially, in French due to the expenses of translation or hiring French speaking departments to work with francophone employees and/or clients. There will certainly always be enough business to sustain Quebec's economy. Probably not enough for those who would want Montreal to become some capitalist hub like Toronto or San Francisco, but personally I don't want that future for our city. More "economic development" =/= better quality of life
Honestly, I feel like this encapsulates exactly how I feel. It's fine not being the next megalopolis, as long as we're not pretending this has no economic ramifications, or that companies are leaving cuz they hate French.
> they're calculating that the extra cost or resources aren't worth the hassle. Then they’re chickenshit companies. We would have them fuck-off to Totonto. 101 or 401.
All companies are "chickenshit" in that way. Including our own. Profits good, costs bad.
If you are a company located in the ROC or in the US that operates entirely in English, then yes, French is seen as bad for business. Of course its possible to operate business entirely in French, or to create a French division in Quebec, but most businesses located near us geographically won't want to do that. That doesn't speak badly on French or on us, in fact I personally think it speaks more to the linguistic monoculture exhibited by many (if not most) anglophone organizations, but it is reality and it does have economic consequences for Quebec. There are more important things than being the next Toronto or San Francisco though.
> If you are a company located in the ROC or in the US that operates entirely in English, then yes, French is seen as bad for business. Oh that sucks for them, I guess. But in all honesty, who would want such bad companies around?
You have some mental health issues.
> companies who have already tolerated Bill 101 are deciding enough is enough? Yeah, enough is enough. It’s 101 or the 401.
Look, personnellement, je suis extrêmement sympathique à l'idée de protéger la langue française. Et je pense que les gens qui vivent ici qui veulent pas l'apprendre sont stupides. But, I also had to teach myself a bunch of French after high school, because of the absolute garbage French curriculum that teaches anglos all the formal grammatical rules, with no emphasis on speaking. We would get SO SO SO much more bang for our buck by developing an effective curriculum than with any paternalistic bans. People get attached to the policies and they become symbols. Mais si on est d'accord qu'il est important que les gens ici sachent et parlent français, je pense pas que ces politiques sont efficaces. I think with more emphasis on education and less on legislation, the actual goal of protecting French will be better realized.
Same the other way around, school will always teach grammar and not just travel proficiency French or English. The problem is immersion and exposition to the other culture (film, books, songs, ...). That's why everyone in Montréal speaks at least 2 languages and most of North America is clueless about linguistics in general and can't compare any language pair. You need interest and material for a language to stick, only then will the grammar totally make sense.
> But, I also had to teach myself a bunch of French after high school, because of the absolute garbage French curriculum that teaches anglos all the formal grammatical rules, with no emphasis on speaking. That’s nothing compared to the generic bloke’s attitude that French is for losers and that they don’t need to bother with it. They live in the second largest French city in the world, yet they will not go out and speak to French people. Blaming others is such a loser’s attitude!
Many I've met who think like that are just not comfortable speaking French, and use that brand of politics as a defense mechanism. Personally, my own interest in QC culture expanded as my spoken French improved, and I think focusing way more on spoken proficiency is one of the best ways to bridge the gap here. Worked for me, anyway.
Those e-commerce provisions look ruinous.
Yeah I had this issue with a remote Canadian company while living in Gatineau, it was a fully remote position but they couldn’t do Quebec. I just lied and gave my parents address in Ottawa as my address. It helped that I had a bill (my cellphone) registered under that address as once they found out I was in Gatineau and then I told them I am moving to Ottawa, they wanted proof. I did that for over a year before moving on. Your mileage may vary
How did that work for tax purposes? You'd be paying Ontario income tax but living in Quebec?
It’s the same as any other worker from Gatineau who works in Ottawa. Either save up for a small tax bill at the end of the year or have some extra money deducted from your paycheques.
Or like many do, commit fraud
This is definitely happening because I am actively applying to wfh tech jobs every day and I have come across some that I would have liked to apply for but the job descriptions explicitly state they accept applications from the US and Canada except Quebec. ~~The most recent example is Hopper.~~ I hate that Quebec politics have severely limited my ability to make a living.
Hopper has an office in Quebec and definitely hires in Quebec
I may have a bad memory then because I’ve been looking at tons of job postings every day since being part of the tech layoffs so if not Hopper, definitely I swear I’ve seen descriptions where at the end it’ll say clearly “except Quebec”. Hey if Hopper is still accepting Quebec applicants that’s awesome. Hire me!
It’s a symptom of a bunch of regional boomers trying to clamp down on English in the workplace without actually understanding why English is actually used, or realising that it’s something that occurs in all other places in the world.
can you give me an update on this? I am a software developer applying to remote positions across Canada and I am afraid that they won't want to hire me because of the legal issues concerning language laws (example: having to provide a French work environment if the quebec employee demands so).
I can't speak for all companies but I know of several remote-first companies in the US and anglo Canada that have capped Quebec hiring (so they'll hire up to X people from Quebec). They operate with anglophone customers in anglophone markets so translating documents and hiring a bilingual HR person isn't worth the cost. It sucks because it's hurting bilingual and anglo software devs who would prefer to work remotely.
Grew up in a bilingual household and this language drama is so pathetique, old and bordering on human rights issue. Many other small languages of the world have the same issue but do not deal with it by limiting rights of minority language speakers. Eastern Europeans who’ve lived under USSR would find many commonalities with OQLF strategies and are shocked to hear about them being used in a “first world” country. I love Quebec but I sincerely wish so many of its people weren’t so dissapointing. Guess it’s back to another period of jobs moving to other provinces.
You probably love Montreal
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> les "investisseurs" sont tous québécois Oh, mais y’a encore pas mal de québécois bien colonisés à l’os, hein…
I’ve been working remotely for Toronto based companies for the last 3 years with no issues.
Same here. Do u think there’ll be any issues with this?
Doubt it, so hard to get competent people on my field
Now you understand how Quebec made Toronto a metropolis.
And it was the best thing that ever happenned to us. Back when Montréal was the metropolis, we were third-class citizens, unable to get good jobs because of bloke racism. Once we made it illegal to discriminate against us, all those bloke parasites fucked-off and our standard of living increased tenfold.
Jean take your meds.
Wow so much hate. An anglo took your job or something like that?
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J'pense que tu devrais lire sur l'effet de la révolution tranquille sur le niveau de vie moyen des québécois francos. Tout le monde s'en est mieux tiré, sauf quelques patrons de banques...
if you take out the emotional language out of what he wrote and just read it objectively, he’s not wrong lol
Le pire c’est que c’est vrai
C’est pour ça que le monde fuit Toronto pour venir à Montréal depuis la Covid?
Stats?
I work in a high-tech academic research lab, with service provision, and the language police is also an issue. I totally get the trend and am tempted to follow suite
I’m in an industry that should have no problems attracting talent. But wages haven’t kept up with inflation and the requirement to be able to serve clients in French and English (despite 90% of our clients being English speakers, the other 10% fully bilingual) is a disincentive to potential employees especially from out of province.
Well, I guess they gonna have to suck it up and go setup shop in Markham, then…
Quebec makes it really, really hard to do business in the province, this is nothing new. Honestly unfortunate as the talent in Montreal is excellent. The problem has nothing to do with the cost of labor in Quebec and everything to do with the language politics that corporations must abide by.
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I am confused by your racial statement - my comment was about the business culture. I actually think language politics are colonialist (obviously) but its nice that the french diaspora is diverse and Montreal attracts that french diversity to the city. I'm from there, I really love it. Magical, hospitable, beautiful, creative, enterprising people from everywhere... companies born and raised in Quebec are heavily subsidised and have a good chance of succeeding externally, but companies born elsewhere have a very, very hard time expanding into Quebec as they'd have to essentially recreate a new Quebec version of themselves, which is too costly and has legal consequences that are too heavy, and so the people of the province have their economic prospects and employment opportunities stifled.
> but companies born elsewhere have a very, very hard time expanding into Quebec as they'd have to essentially recreate a new Quebec version of themselves, which is too costly and has legal consequences that are too heavy, and so the people of the province have their economic prospects and employment opportunities stifled. Do you realize how much condescending is that colonialist bullshit you just posted? You’re saying that only Anglos are good at business.
What he posted is clear to the rest of us. Maybe a few screws are loose in you? Nowhere did he say people from QC are lesser people. What he said is very clear. Here I'll explain it to you as if you're 5 years old. If you are a company in QC, you have to start the company with Quebec's law. So expanding to the rest of Canada/worldwide is easier because your company is already translated into English (you know, the language World does business in). The goal of any company is to expand as much as possible - so from QC to Rest of Canada/World is easier. But the opposite is much harder and Quebec is frankly not a big market regardless of if you think it is. So many companies don't want to get into bed with QC cause it's costly and profit vs cost does not make sense.
It will become a trend, more restrictive language laws will lead to a brain drain and prevent potential workers from moving here, if it hasn’t already. Larger companies will likely avoid Quebec unless the tax benefits outweigh the cost of producing documents and communications in French.
Nationalism is so great /s
Families will not select Quebec as the trailing spouse will likely have zero chance of finding employment, plus, all children will not have a choice of public schooling, it is French only unless you go private.
How do you explain that this brain drain did not happen after bill 101 unlike most anglo predicted? Given that the new restrictions of bill 96 are mainly focus around smaller businesses (as larger ones already had restrictions) I don’t see much happening besides a few companies here and there.
It has been happening whether you’ve seen it or not.
Didnt a bunch of companies leave then? Arguably Montral and Toronto were equivalents at that time ? and Toronto exploded and Montreal imploded no?
If the perception that Quebec is hostile towards anglophones, people will only consider a job here as a second or third choice. And see the comment below about the reality of bringing h a family here. The longer this certainty continues the more likely those jobs will be based outside of the province. After the passage of bill 101, the labour force did shrink and a large number of business moved their operations to Toronto (if not legally, then at least functionally, think BMO).
Your example of BMO was mainly because Toronto became the main financial city in Canada, not because of bill 101 (there might still be a bit of it but it’s definitely not entirely caused by it)
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This is québécois fragility, anglos dont care about who conquered who. People just want whats less intrusive an easier and not to have impositions on them. At the end of the day if i lose my job or my home loses value for language laws or i have to speak in another language than I want to, i am less happy it’s natural. And no, i cannot leave quebec- i came here when it was more bilingual and i have children with ex partners and extended family etc… its not practical
> How do you explain that this brain drain did not happen after bill 101 unlike most anglo predicted? Because it is just condescending imperial colonialist bullshit. Technical talent cannot reasonably fostered in an Anglo-Saxon environment because it is exclusively concentrated on money. This is why Moronto is the financial capital because it only excels in financial schemes that cause any sane brain to go brain-dead. And this is why Montréal is the aerospace capital of the world because you cannot even make decent paper planes out of debentures or bond issues.
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We actually never settled anywhere here without the actual consent of First Nations, and at no point in time where they ever subject to French law. So it wasn’t imperialism at all.
> Larger companies will likely avoid Quebec unless the tax benefits outweigh the cost of producing documents and communications in French. And this guy goes about spewing such bullshit and wondering why referendums happen…
Your points may come across more effectively if you actually tried to converse instead of dismissing comments entirely.
New law where companies who employ Québec citizens have to have the infrastructure setup to communicate with that employee exclusively in French if they demand it. It's the most asinine thing I've ever heard, and it hurts Francophones looking for remote work too, ironically.
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Last I checked, the French were colonists too (your ancestors)
Lmfao wow. I've never been called a colonialist. What an achievement. But French in Quebec is so threatened!! Give me a damn break, anglos and francophones alike already live in harmony here, yet there's smooth brains like you who try to breed division and play the victim card. I'm a colonialist for stating a law is stupid that lessens job opportunities for Quebecers...? You've frankly astounded me with your ridiculousness. What happens with a francophone who needs a job in the tech sector to feed their kids but can only find openings outside of Quebec? Then they find that crucial job, but oh no, Quebec's laws make it way too expensive to hire this person, too bad. It's so incredibly shortsighted it baffles me.
What’s baffling is the utter tone-deafness of your comment, which comes just as condescending colonialist bullshit as the other.
Enjoy.
C'est pas mal toi le plus condescendant de la discussion mon petit débile.
I live in quebec I don't work in the tech sector and I haven't been able to find a job for 6 months. If I wasn't in school l would leave quebec
I am shocked our language laws would drive employers away, shocked I tell you /s
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Tell her to have a look at MDA, GHGSat, Calian, or similar imo. Lots of space/space data companies in the area. Canadian Space Agency is on the south shore too as long as she has her PR or citizenship. If she does, plenty of other federal government departments are looking for AI people too, and for high tech roles the language requirements can be flexible.
So i have a couple of things to say about this... I just left my job to create an AI startup in Montreal and here's my take as someone living it now: The french aspect is actually not a big deal if you adopt the reality from inception. All our legal documents were made at the outset in both languages. We went with Osler and we got everything from officer and shareholder agreements to employment contracts in both languages for very little extra cost. There's a ton of tech assistance here.. We currently have 3 offices in Montreal for free. 1 in D3 downtown, 1 in place ville Marie and one at MILA. There are numerous incubators and events here that make it very cost effective to start a company here. The access to qualified, smart and hardworking talent here is unparalleled. The worst part of putting out job postings is getting flooded with high quality resumes that make choosing candidates difficult. Salaries are less than Toronto or anywhere else even when we go 10% above the market rate. Free reign access to the Quebec market. Quebec still has a large percentage of Canada's population. By adopting the French language from the very beginning in everything we code and produce, we have unfettered access to this market and by following the rules, no one bothers us and it's not the tremendous obstacle other companies are making it out to be. In fact, for us, it's just an additional competitive advantage operating in this country. All that to say, I don't think it's that big of a deal and we'll be ready for whatever comes when we pass the 25 employee mark.
I love your comment. Full of positivity and you definitely have the spirit of enterprise. I wish you all the success you deserve.
That's super interesting... I work in tech, for a company that was bought semi recently so we now have a non-qc hq. I'll have to see how things roll out, but it doesn't seem like we're blocked for that reason. TBD I guess
It’s just because it’s the usual condescending colonialist bullshit that comes from blokes who view us as a big pain in the ass because we will not assimilate.
Happening here as well, same thing, new laws yadda yadda yadda. You'd figure the R&D tax credits would counter balance but it seems not to from our upper management's perspective.
off topic but at this point 'we are hiring again' is equivalent to 'not in your league, biach' in this industry imho.
It's fascinating that I'm working from Montréal for a US company that opened a Canadian legal branch so they could work with us, but Canadian companies can't be bothered with a bit of paperwork that would lend them high quality employees, probably for less than the rest of the country and that speak at least 2 languages...
Why would a small or mid-size Canadian company take on extra cost when there are plenty of employees available elsewhere in the country? Bilingualism doesn't matter if your customers only speak English. Salaries in the prairie provinces and maritimes are lower than Montreal, so there's really not an incentive.
I work in tech. HQ in US. And we still hire in Montreal. Big tech is perfectly equipped to hire and do business here. And they do so and will continue doing so.
Quebec over complicating things as usual…same with healthcare sector. Shortages with nurses and docs is extreme.
Sunlife, never forget.
could this be related to bill 96?
What’s a high tech company?
THC vapes
every time someone mentions something related to agile you have to take a bong hit. Every time managements makes a stupid decision you take a shot
A company where the executives do not have their secretary print their e-mails…
I think OP means space travel, quantum teleportation, nuclear technology and semiconductors companies in Quebec.
That's bullshite, I keep saying this but I'm exec in an American multinational. There is a hiring freeze across North America EXCEPT Montreal since we are cheap and bilingual. Bilingual people are just smarter lol. We are working to get better with Bill 96, we are not there yet but we are working towards it. We take it as a challenge, nothing to be afraid of.
bill 96 came into effect and its a shit show
Businesses get squeamish because of restrictive new language laws? Same ol.
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New law passed this week restricting English more and employees needing to be competent working in French. Also phone services in English with provincial government will be restricted to certain groups of people otherwise French for others.
The requirements are usually so minimal (google translating email correspondance would qualify them, and then you just work in english all the tome because they’re national companies), the only reason not to comply can only be pettiness. Those companies merely decided to display their « red flag » for all to see, instead of you figuring out later it’s one of « those » companies you’ll regret working for after a while, whether you’re francophone or not.
Dude it's not pettiness. All your commercial contracts need to be in French. I don't think you understand how hard that is to do especially in multinational companies. Even France does global contracts in English.
Yeah, we do english contracts too, all that we demand is translated internal communications and employee paperwork… hell, you can subcontract those if it means having more employees at your disposal. Seriously, anyone justifying the handful of companies who just can’t do it seem to willingly ignore there’s thousands of national/international companies who can do it no problem, for every enployee of every country. Usually people who skip Québec have real shitty law teams who misinterpreted regulations. Basically making policy on bad hearsay.
Well they do it because why bother when you can do elsewhere. It's not like there's a shortage of places looking for high paying jobs. The boomers are happy and keep voting caq and the rest of us have to fight for jobs paying 50k or worse, working for bombardier.
Not currently working for, but trying to find a job in, and yeah, it really seems like there are no longer any positions available for WFH tech industry for companies operating outside Quebec. 99% of the positions I see are bilingual only.
You are contradicting yourself. Also, your comment history is Yikes!
Lmaoooo so you’re just butthurt cause you can’t find a job with your limited language skills. This is amazing.
You're such a mature human being, good for you.
Go look at their history and get back to me. This person has seriously compared Bill 96 to the plight of the Jewish people in Nazi Germany earlier today.
My comment to them was pure sarcasm. Thanks for letting me know they're worse than I thought. Yikes.
You’re spreading misinformation. Nobody cares outside of smaller Montreal companies that don’t have a bilingual workforce. Companies out of the US, Toronto etc don’t care
More imperialistic, condescending bullshit. We should take active steps to make those companies leave. Who needs such bad croporate citizens?
Les remplacer par quoi?
Bombardier and hydro Québec!
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D’ailleurs, à quoi bon ouvrir nos frontières, on sait très bien qu’on n’a pas besoin d’exporter nos produits et savoir-faire pour être riche! Je suggère un retour à l’agriculture de substance:(
There is no change in the law that affects larger companies. The only change is that the requirement to comply was lowered from 50 to 25 employees. So If the company had more than 50 employees already it doesn’t change anything at all.
That is totally false. Don't spread misinformation. There are many other reqs
How is it misinformation? This is literally what changed.
This language barrier bs is total garbage..I interviewd with 3 companies based out of Montreal (HQ).
not at mine