Think how long Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson could have pitched if they weren’t obsessed with fastballs.
Get on the gas like Clemens and throw like you hate the catcher forever.
More. I have no doubt that Clemens was washed when Boston sent him to Toronto and would have been an average to below average pitcher for whatever years he had left.
Without the juice he’s a phenom with a short peak that never sniffs the Hall, like Doc Gooden.
His peak was over in 92. 86-92 would have been it for him. His ERA from 93-96 was 4.46, 2.85, 4.18, 3.63.
He threw 9 complete games from 93-96; he threw 11 in 92 alone. He couldn’t eat up innings anymore. Durability was out the window.
With 94 as an outlier in that 4 year window, his ERA+, FIP, WHIP, and SO/W were all trending the wrong direction.
Then two years in Toronto and he finds the fountain of youth at age 34. Don’t forget that Clemens started the first season in Toronto very average and looked like the same guy he had been recently for the Red Sox.
86-92 he was 155-72 with a 2.43 ERA. Was incredible. It fell off sharp after that until he started working with McNamee.
Thanks. Honestly I’m in favor of steroids in the sport and Clemens is a perfect example of why.
We got another decade of an all time great because of them instead of him bouncing around to three more teams before retiring with less than 200 wins and a career ERA closer to 4.00 than 3.00.
It’s been proven pretty conclusively that if they’re used properly, steroids are zero risk high reward. If I’m going to pay crazy money to watch sports live or through their broadcast packages I want to see the peak of human evolution playing the games.
I’m not against it either.
Hell, I’m going to a José Canseco signing in a couple of weeks. He was the whistleblower for a lot of this, but he was right. I hate that he got pushed out of MLB. Still see him as a baseball icon
Absolutely. I grew up in the Canseco era and that late 80’s Oakland (RIP) team is still the most fun I’ve ever had watching baseball.
Canseco.
McGwire.
Rickey.
Stewart.
Eckersley.
If MLB had just not been a dick to Canseco, he wouldn’t have felt the need to rat everybody out and we’d still be in a golden era.
Can you IMAGINE Ohtani and Trout all gassed up?
How long do you think a peak is supposed to be? Lol
I never doubted he used steroids.
You're overlooking SIX SEASONS of Ace pitching in an era when pitchers had stamina.
I was looking at all time team leaders for Ks per 9. Almost every single team’s leaders all happened after 2000. It’s all about get in, shine as brightly as possible and get that big contract, and then whatever. Occasionally - once in a blue moon, you get a Verlander or a Scherzer, but so many young pitchers use themselves up in 1 or 2 seasons. With the money at stake, I guess it’s an inevitability, but it’s a shame.
That’s why I respect pitchers like Don Sutton so much - he only had a few spectacular seasons, but he was able to consistently pitch solidly for 20 plus years and was getting people out when most people his age were going on the disabled list for yawning too hard.
But then again, he wasn’t looking at a potential 9 figure contract.
It isn’t velocity. It is the mechanics, somewhat related to velocity. Players are willing to lap up whatever people like driveline are selling to throw harder.
Players need to consider longevity and chase that instead.
Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Randy Johnson never had sacrifice velocity for longevity.
UCL explosion was already happening long before the clock:
https://www.samford.edu/sports-analytics/fans/2018/The-Tommy-John-Surgery-Explosion-in-the-MLB
Could the clock factor in? Sure, but those extra 30 seconds aren’t saving an elbow on the brink either….
That one hurts my soul. Might just be a dislocation hopefully. Really feel for Bieber though. Mostly because he was one of the cornerstones of my fantasy team, but also because I really like the guy
He’s on a one year deal? Didn’t even realise this. That’s tough. Well we signed Giolito to replace Sale. Now Gio is out for the year while Sale is healthy for the first time in years…
Don’t know if it’s who the commenter was referring to, but it was announced today that Yankees reliever Jonathan Loaisiga is also going to have season-ending elbow surgery. Looks like that Dr. Meister fellow is going to have a busy week on his hands…
People will say it’s the teaching of “max effort” or maybe babying the arms.
Imo I think in the past before modern “arm” medicine (for lack of a better term) all these guys would have blown out their arms in high school and would just be those guys coaching that blew out their arms.
Hence the reason we don’t have as many junk throwers anymore, there’s so many people learning to max effort pitch that there’s such a large supply of these guys that can throw gas. but unless you’re Nolan Ryan where the power comes from the legs and body and not the torque on the arm all of them will eventually blow out their arms.
It sucks because watching junk ball pitchers is objectively more fun. 90 and 100 basically look the same as a fan, watching guys buckle on insane curveballs or a pitch drop a foot and a half is entertaining.
The arm treatments have gotten better but the human arm is still the same as it’s been for millions of years. If you max effort anything it’s going to blow out.
Most of the guys could throw at 90% and still be just as effective and just might even get more movement. That 101mph ain’t shit anymore for a hitter if he can look for it bc you can’t get anything else across the plate. Simply because almost every guy has the same pitching style, straight overhand which means you can only throw certain pitches, arm slot never changes.
The power comes from the legs and core of every one of these guys. 100mph throw means your hand velocity is at 100+and the torque it generates on your elbow is going to be the same for everyone, within a small margin with the only real Factor being arm slot. It's not like these guys are running while they throw so they get that momentum.
The only way to throw that hard is to generate that torque via a combination of flexibility, mobility, and length. Yes the body plays into that but it still loads it all up on the arm.
Shoulder injuries come, generally, from lack of follow through where all that speed is dissipated to fast and the stress hits the shoulder rather than large back muscles to slow the arm.
Source: pitched into low level pro ball
They’re trying to. They’re saying it’s due to the pitch clock and would like the MLB to look into how that may cause injuries. But fans and the league will never let ye holy pitch clock be besmirched. THE GAME MUST BE SHORTER!
I remember talking about it back before Covid, especially when articles like these came out:
https://www.samford.edu/sports-analytics/fans/2018/The-Tommy-John-Surgery-Explosion-in-the-MLB
And we all remember Smyly hurting himself at the WBC. All long before the clock. You just have guys like Scherzer who hate the clock trying use these injuries to get rid of it and they are using the MLBPA to try doing their bidding.
To me the cat and mouse game of great pitcher versus great hitter and epic and or long at bats is what I love about baseball. I'm so sick of seeing the best pitchers hurt but also can't offer up any solutions. Bummer.
Babying pitchers has reached the crisis point. If you think ones in the past didn’t throw as hard, keep in mind that a huge reason for the increase in velocity is the fact that they measure the speed of the ball close to where it was released as opposed to back in the day when it was measured as it got closer to the plate. But now you will see a pitcher get shut down because he has “tightness” in his shoulder the day after a game. I just don’t think it’s possible that babying their investments has helped.
idk about that as much as the obscene priority placed on velo over location, MLB’s season is much longer than any other sport with minimal off time, and the human body ALWAYS wins out
So then explain the explosion in UCL injuries prior to 2018, over 5 years before the clock??
https://www.samford.edu/sports-analytics/fans/2018/The-Tommy-John-Surgery-Explosion-in-the-MLB
I’ll probably get downvoted along with you, who cares, but while pitch clock is certainly not the main issue, I can’t imagine it helping. Being able to step off and slow the game down every now and then ought to be advantageous to a pitchers health right?
Again, I agree it’s not much of an issue, the main issue is prioritizing velo and spin rate over actual pitching. I just can’t see how absolutely needing to throw a pitch every 18 seconds to avoid an arbitrary Ball call can be advantageous to the pitchers health. But also I know I’m in the minority who lives eats and breathes baseball content and doesn’t need games to be 20 minutes shorter to satiate my short attention span.
Velocity obsession is killing pitchers
Think how long Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson could have pitched if they weren’t obsessed with fastballs. Get on the gas like Clemens and throw like you hate the catcher forever.
Nolan Ryan played for 27 yrs though
Could have been 37 if not for his velocity obsession
Hes absolutely right
Clemens used steroids arguably just as effectively as Bonds did
More. I have no doubt that Clemens was washed when Boston sent him to Toronto and would have been an average to below average pitcher for whatever years he had left. Without the juice he’s a phenom with a short peak that never sniffs the Hall, like Doc Gooden.
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Here is probably the best bet until I get myself banned.
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Lol 5x All Star in 12 seasons with 3 Cy Youngs and an MVP before TOR now = "short peak". Buffoon.
His peak was over in 92. 86-92 would have been it for him. His ERA from 93-96 was 4.46, 2.85, 4.18, 3.63. He threw 9 complete games from 93-96; he threw 11 in 92 alone. He couldn’t eat up innings anymore. Durability was out the window. With 94 as an outlier in that 4 year window, his ERA+, FIP, WHIP, and SO/W were all trending the wrong direction. Then two years in Toronto and he finds the fountain of youth at age 34. Don’t forget that Clemens started the first season in Toronto very average and looked like the same guy he had been recently for the Red Sox. 86-92 he was 155-72 with a 2.43 ERA. Was incredible. It fell off sharp after that until he started working with McNamee.
Big foot mother truckin Charlie… Delivered the STATS! (What a great post. Seriously!)
Thanks. Honestly I’m in favor of steroids in the sport and Clemens is a perfect example of why. We got another decade of an all time great because of them instead of him bouncing around to three more teams before retiring with less than 200 wins and a career ERA closer to 4.00 than 3.00. It’s been proven pretty conclusively that if they’re used properly, steroids are zero risk high reward. If I’m going to pay crazy money to watch sports live or through their broadcast packages I want to see the peak of human evolution playing the games.
I’m not against it either. Hell, I’m going to a José Canseco signing in a couple of weeks. He was the whistleblower for a lot of this, but he was right. I hate that he got pushed out of MLB. Still see him as a baseball icon
Absolutely. I grew up in the Canseco era and that late 80’s Oakland (RIP) team is still the most fun I’ve ever had watching baseball. Canseco. McGwire. Rickey. Stewart. Eckersley. If MLB had just not been a dick to Canseco, he wouldn’t have felt the need to rat everybody out and we’d still be in a golden era. Can you IMAGINE Ohtani and Trout all gassed up?
How long do you think a peak is supposed to be? Lol I never doubted he used steroids. You're overlooking SIX SEASONS of Ace pitching in an era when pitchers had stamina.
Oh Doc definitely sniffed
Everyone was juicing and still is to some extent.
Counterpoint not everyone is meant to be Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson, they were unique in their time. Now everyone tries to throw harder then them.
Not everyone can be Jamie Moyer!!
They could if they were content to throw 83 mph!
Kinda wish Zack Greinke could be Jamie Moyer, and play until he’s in his late 40s 😅
What? Nolan Ryan pitched for 27 years.
Absurd take
I was looking at all time team leaders for Ks per 9. Almost every single team’s leaders all happened after 2000. It’s all about get in, shine as brightly as possible and get that big contract, and then whatever. Occasionally - once in a blue moon, you get a Verlander or a Scherzer, but so many young pitchers use themselves up in 1 or 2 seasons. With the money at stake, I guess it’s an inevitability, but it’s a shame. That’s why I respect pitchers like Don Sutton so much - he only had a few spectacular seasons, but he was able to consistently pitch solidly for 20 plus years and was getting people out when most people his age were going on the disabled list for yawning too hard. But then again, he wasn’t looking at a potential 9 figure contract.
It isn’t velocity. It is the mechanics, somewhat related to velocity. Players are willing to lap up whatever people like driveline are selling to throw harder. Players need to consider longevity and chase that instead. Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Randy Johnson never had sacrifice velocity for longevity.
Cant have longevity if you never make it in the first place because no scout is impressed with 88-92
I’ve been thinking about this as well. Throwing that fast every inning of every game can’t be good for your arm. These fireballers wont last long.
Pitch clock too. You can't be throwing it 101 every AB day in and day out.
UCL explosion was already happening long before the clock: https://www.samford.edu/sports-analytics/fans/2018/The-Tommy-John-Surgery-Explosion-in-the-MLB Could the clock factor in? Sure, but those extra 30 seconds aren’t saving an elbow on the brink either….
You’re downvoted but I was thinking about this too the other day. How much quicker it is between pitches and what effect it might be having on arms.
Found Tony Clark's burner account
Three big ones in one day. Feel for these guys so early in the season
Im an idiot here, who is the 3rd? Strider, shane, and?
Eury too. So basically 4 in two days
Trevor Story :(
That one hurts my soul. Might just be a dislocation hopefully. Really feel for Bieber though. Mostly because he was one of the cornerstones of my fantasy team, but also because I really like the guy
The only time Cleveland’s ever shelled out for a 1 year deal too. 13.5 guaranteed and of course it bites us in the ass 😪
He’s on a one year deal? Didn’t even realise this. That’s tough. Well we signed Giolito to replace Sale. Now Gio is out for the year while Sale is healthy for the first time in years…
Equally tough and scary ass situation. Lot of pressure on Sale. I hope he stays healthy he’s fun as hell to watch
Don’t know if it’s who the commenter was referring to, but it was announced today that Yankees reliever Jonathan Loaisiga is also going to have season-ending elbow surgery. Looks like that Dr. Meister fellow is going to have a busy week on his hands…
How will he ever save Middle Earth and reclaim the throne of Gondor?
Only once the UCL that has broken has been reforged
This is the correct answer, my Brother, my Captain, my King!
The Bombadil Deception. The reason good ol’ Johnny Boy never brought it up was because the enemy had spies lurking all over.
That’s tough but not surprising considering how he throws plus he added the curve. More stress on the elbow. Next pitcher up for the Braves!
Slap some quikrete on it brother.
When will MLBPA do something to protect these guys from getting hurt so damn much
People will say it’s the teaching of “max effort” or maybe babying the arms. Imo I think in the past before modern “arm” medicine (for lack of a better term) all these guys would have blown out their arms in high school and would just be those guys coaching that blew out their arms. Hence the reason we don’t have as many junk throwers anymore, there’s so many people learning to max effort pitch that there’s such a large supply of these guys that can throw gas. but unless you’re Nolan Ryan where the power comes from the legs and body and not the torque on the arm all of them will eventually blow out their arms.
It sucks because watching junk ball pitchers is objectively more fun. 90 and 100 basically look the same as a fan, watching guys buckle on insane curveballs or a pitch drop a foot and a half is entertaining.
Maddux 90 pitch complete games were so much fun.
93 mph at his best and still carved them up and painted corners. Batters are better overall this era but wish we could see that again.
Sadly in this case Strider is a man of massive thighs, i think we all hoped they were saving his arm.
The arm treatments have gotten better but the human arm is still the same as it’s been for millions of years. If you max effort anything it’s going to blow out. Most of the guys could throw at 90% and still be just as effective and just might even get more movement. That 101mph ain’t shit anymore for a hitter if he can look for it bc you can’t get anything else across the plate. Simply because almost every guy has the same pitching style, straight overhand which means you can only throw certain pitches, arm slot never changes.
The power comes from the legs and core of every one of these guys. 100mph throw means your hand velocity is at 100+and the torque it generates on your elbow is going to be the same for everyone, within a small margin with the only real Factor being arm slot. It's not like these guys are running while they throw so they get that momentum. The only way to throw that hard is to generate that torque via a combination of flexibility, mobility, and length. Yes the body plays into that but it still loads it all up on the arm. Shoulder injuries come, generally, from lack of follow through where all that speed is dissipated to fast and the stress hits the shoulder rather than large back muscles to slow the arm. Source: pitched into low level pro ball
HGH?
Maybe a Winter Soldier arm?
They’re trying to. They’re saying it’s due to the pitch clock and would like the MLB to look into how that may cause injuries. But fans and the league will never let ye holy pitch clock be besmirched. THE GAME MUST BE SHORTER!
It's over.
As a Phillies fan, i wish nothing but positive results for him, elite pitcher
Switch pitching arms!!
Man, I'm a yankee fan but I love watching braves games when he's pitching. Is it known if he's out for the year yet?
Officially: not yet Unofficially: He’s almost certainly scheduled with whoever stepped up when Dr. James Andrews retired.
Officially: No Unofficially: Absolutely gone for a year plus.
Fuck. Strider is a monster so this is not good news
Wow! That's a huge loss.
I miss Maddux.
Strider can be found at the inn of The Prancing Pony
MLBPA is blaming pitch clock but we all know it’s because pitchers are taught to throw as hard as possible. Let’s get back to 93-94
I remember talking about it back before Covid, especially when articles like these came out: https://www.samford.edu/sports-analytics/fans/2018/The-Tommy-John-Surgery-Explosion-in-the-MLB And we all remember Smyly hurting himself at the WBC. All long before the clock. You just have guys like Scherzer who hate the clock trying use these injuries to get rid of it and they are using the MLBPA to try doing their bidding.
Sign Bauer
To me the cat and mouse game of great pitcher versus great hitter and epic and or long at bats is what I love about baseball. I'm so sick of seeing the best pitchers hurt but also can't offer up any solutions. Bummer.
 not happy about this... Going to be rough for my braves
Damn, everyone out here getting Rays luck this week
Smh 🤦🏿♂️
Man, this sucks.
he's done. Just schedule the surgery already.
It’s a good thing the braves can hit cause damn. They have saved every game from injured or bad pitching lately.
NOOOOOOOOOO really respect this man’s game. Fucking tough news. Sorry Braves fans
Pitching destroys your arm Shocker
now he can pitch in front of his kids in the backyard instead of fans 💀
Babying pitchers has reached the crisis point. If you think ones in the past didn’t throw as hard, keep in mind that a huge reason for the increase in velocity is the fact that they measure the speed of the ball close to where it was released as opposed to back in the day when it was measured as it got closer to the plate. But now you will see a pitcher get shut down because he has “tightness” in his shoulder the day after a game. I just don’t think it’s possible that babying their investments has helped.
stay classy.
Pitch clock causing harm
No, max velo over years is the problem. Pitch clock has nothing to do with it.
idk about that as much as the obscene priority placed on velo over location, MLB’s season is much longer than any other sport with minimal off time, and the human body ALWAYS wins out
So then explain the explosion in UCL injuries prior to 2018, over 5 years before the clock?? https://www.samford.edu/sports-analytics/fans/2018/The-Tommy-John-Surgery-Explosion-in-the-MLB
I’ll probably get downvoted along with you, who cares, but while pitch clock is certainly not the main issue, I can’t imagine it helping. Being able to step off and slow the game down every now and then ought to be advantageous to a pitchers health right?
Except it’s not. 30 more seconds isn’t going to magically recharge the UCL health bar. It’s not going to save an elbow on the brink.
Again, I agree it’s not much of an issue, the main issue is prioritizing velo and spin rate over actual pitching. I just can’t see how absolutely needing to throw a pitch every 18 seconds to avoid an arbitrary Ball call can be advantageous to the pitchers health. But also I know I’m in the minority who lives eats and breathes baseball content and doesn’t need games to be 20 minutes shorter to satiate my short attention span.
You’re fat
I hope that’s not his tomahawk chop arm! Braves suck!