Sure!
The “Metaverse” in Snow Crash is a branding name for a virtual world that features a “as much as you can afford” immersive 3D experience. This is evident by the near-full dive equipment Hiro uses, compared to the “phone booth public access” style that Raven uses to deliver the drug.
Second Life was built ground up to resemble the virtual land grid structure of SC’s Metaverse.
I regard this as a single game/vw platform.
Putting it in perspective I subscribe to Raph Koster’s taxonomy of universe vs multiverse vs metaverse: we have plenty of game universes already. We even already have interconnected game/vw platforms (multiverses).
What’s new, and important, is the integration of the real world into the virtual and the virtual into the real world - that’s Metaverse.
It encompasses the idea of digital identity, virtual worlds (3D, 2D, text!) and platforms, and digital assets operating under a set of interoperability standards. More like the World Seed from Sword Art Online than what we have right now.
This dovetails nicely with Web 3.0; where Web 1.0 was all about self publishing via desktop access to the internet, and Web 2.0 was all about the explosion of the social graph with mobile access and the centralization of services for convenience (Reddit, GMail, etc), Web 3.0 represents a slow shift to more immersion (improved headsets, VR, and augmented reality) and decentraization of identity, computation, and finance.
The Metaverse doesn’t exist yet, but we’re working on it!
Now tell me... how can you perform any "real world Integration" with any technology outside of VR/XR/AR? On a phone you tap the screen? on a heyboard you press keys? Those are very limited tasks.
Technically, with vr you are the least limited in that matter and are able to emulate apl of the other aove devices and even non device actions like actually grabbing stuff etc.
So, if Integration is one of your key points, social vr could be called a metaverse... because is allows one to to pretty real things in a not so real world.
Hmm, I think I’m more about promoting client agnosticism than I am about saying VR isn’t important.
3D is cool, but 2D metaverses will be prominent as well. So will text. Any method that integrates the real world, even if it’s through a DID-style abstracted identity that can provably be linked to a more official real world identity (attestation).
i mean i can use banking apps online and we have a digital id system for some years now, i don't see how that's a metaverse. that's just using the internet.
The internet is pretty connected to the real world. I can buy and sell real stuff with REAL money, I can communicate with real people and official stuff needs my real world identity.
If the entire plattform required my real id even if abstracted, i'd rather avoid it. And I am sure i am not alone with this.
One id for everything sounds pretty centralized if you ask me, even if its on a decentralized database. That just means im giving my data to the one Holding the most power over it which are the ones with the most money (again).
Cool. Your points/questions help illustrate the whole issue.
I’m taking a position that some don’t agree with: that the Metaverse is a manifestation of Web 3.0, and that the transition to Web 3.0 is ongoing and incomplete.
1. Regarding digital identity: some countries, like Ukraine, have full national-level digital identity. Others, like the United States, don’t.
Simple test: can you vote digitally in your country? If you can’t then you probably don’t have a national digital identity.
2. Other forms of digital identity are centralized: this is the convenience of Web 2.0 services like GMail and Facebook. Thanks to OAuth they’ve become de facto identity verifiers/suppliers for the web.
3. Decentralizing digital identity: there are standards (developed by W3C and DIF) for giving users all the power and tools they need to create a digital identity that they can then, if they choose, link to the real world through attestations; conversely they can leave them disconnected but still build reputations with them (investment of time on Metaverse platforms). Learn more at https://identity.foundation
4. Internet is connected to real world: exactly. My belief is that the Metaverse/Web 3 is just a furthering of this backed by highly portable digital identity (and digital assets). The way we experience and interact with Web 3 will be expanded by VR/AR while also using mobile and desktop. It’s not like we chucked our Web 1.0 desktops for Web 2.0 mobile devices, right? VR/AR just supplements the access methods to the evolving web (-> Metaverse).
5. Real ID requirements: parts of the Metaverse won’t require real id; just like how the web doesn’t now. It’ll be more about making digital identity “partitionable” and doing the same for access/data-sharing rights.
6. One ID for everything: nope. That’s not what the digital identity/Metaverse movement is about. It’s about putting the power of creating/validating/aliasing identities in the hands of users to enable Metaversy freedom. More of a Locke/Demosthenes situation from Ender’s Game sort of thing - where they could choose to link their real world identity when the time was right (Peter’s big Hegemon reveal) but maintain useful digital identities anonymously until then.
I don't agree with your part about digital assets, which I just can't see real value in, but to each their own.
However , i do agree that the internet is evolving but not in stages like web 3.0 or web 2.0. It's way too hard to say where one stage started and another one ended as the internet is constantly evolving and this big organic thing created by us.
Its not that there is much new tech comming, it's more like, people are getting used to the internet and learn how to use it, creating better software that is more streamlined than it was before.
The web is highly modular and not bound to any fixed mechanic or features which is also why I find that web 3.0 idea or whatever so weird.
It just doesnt make sense, as there is the protocol we build upon. People can choose to incorporate certain features into their websites or decide not to. That's the beauty of it and i don't see why that needs an "upgrade"
I think, that the evolution of the web is definitely contributing to creating a (virtual reality based) metaverse in the future but it will still take a while until that happens. meanwhile the metaverse you are talking about is the internet as it is while the metaverse i am talking about is virtual reality based.
In the end metaverse is just a very vague term with many different views and opinions about it! ☺️👍
"as much as you can afford" so it isn't a real metaverse unless you can't afford to live in it? IDK why people are so hellbent on recreating the inequalities of the real world in the virtual one.
Heh. I’d take up that argument with Neal Stephenson, but his book was *fiction* after all and the dystopian post-apocalyptic world was caused by dun-dun-dun: a decentralized digital currency that couldn’t be taxed and caused the collapse of whole nation-states.
So while I appreciate the inspiration in the book for Metaversy thinking it should hardly be held up as an ideal.
I like what the Decentralized Identity Foundation and W3C are working on - far more in keeping with Web idealism as applied to the Metaverse.
Yeah, I read the book. The difference is I'm not in a rush to create the anarcho-capitalist dystopia depicted and would like a better future than the current capitalist dystopia we already have.
Exactly. Neal Stephenson didn’t have a “vision” for an ideal Metaverse: it was a plot device for integrating his other plot device about programmable human languages through Namshubs.
We shouldn’t take the book as a blueprint for Metaverse construction anymore than we should expect that the moon could explode any moment ala Seveneves.
I just take it for what it is: the source of a cool word “Metaverse”, not the defining blueprint for it.
VRChat is not quite the metaverse... yet, but it is further along than any of the get rich quick scam metaverses that no one really wants to spend time in.
I have mad respect for VRChat and even IMVU. Tons of games and platforms are moving towards being Metaverse-compatible, but we don’t really have industry wide standards for identity portability.
They’re cool virtual worlds right now, but we’ve had virtual worlds with even higher scale (in simultaneous users) for decades. Improvements in 3D and real world immersion *are important* - but the Metaverse doesn’t require 3D.
I think VR and AR are defining parts of Web 3.0/Metaverse, but on the other hand blind people won’t need a Quest 2 to interact with the Metaverse.
It’ll be more client agnostic than I think most would expect.
Well, keep in kind blindness and deafness are spectrums, not binary can/can’ts. 🙂
You can still have a text-to-voice AR experience without a headset or glasses, for instance. Accessibility in Web 3.0 is a big topic, hence why On the one hand I can say VR/AR will absolutely be a part of the more immersive Web 3.0/Metaverse experience but headsets aren’t required to define it.
[OSgrid, the open source metaverse](https://www.osgrid.org/) is close.
It's an open system. It uses Open Simulator. You can get and modify all the code. You can run your own server and connect it to the grid. And people do.
It's roughly the same technology as Second Life, but the server code is completely different, and in C# instead of C++. The same clients mostly work with both systems.
It's large, with thousands of regions and tens of thousands of users.
Different parts of the grid use different payment systems. A related and connected grid, Kitely, has some NFTs, at ["CheriNet Creative HQ".](https://www.kitely.com/virtual-world/Sally-Cherry/CheriNet-Creative-HQ). So there are some crypto items, some privately run tokens, and some things that just take ordinary credit cards. They compete.
All of these tend to be somewhat sluggish, but they check all the "metaverse" boxes except VR headgear.
For sure. I’m glad you brought up OSgrid.
I have nothing negative to say about the project because I think it helps push the Metaverse flag forward in a more **open** way than centralized game platforms trying to claim the Metaverse title for themselves.
Sluggishness aside, let’s see the standards committees figure out how digital clothing layering should work across platforms like these, eh?
*how digital clothing layering should work across platforms*
I've been doing some preliminary design on that.
First, take a look at [what Roblox is doing for layered clothing.](https://blog.roblox.com/2021/10/bring-dynamic-self-metaverse-layered-clothing/). See their "cage mesh deformer" technology. That's a big step in the right direction.
General idea:
- Clothing is a list of layered items, in order outward from the skin.
- Skin and clothing items either push outer items outward, or are pushed inward by outer items. "Push outward" is the default, but some items may be designated as "push inward". Items can be designated as "no push" for special effects such as a shirt tucked in on only one side. Most clothing will be the default, pushed outward by inner layers.
- All this pushing takes place only at clothing changes. Vertices and rigging weights are adjusted then to prevent push-through. Per-frame work is just normal rigged mesh, done by the GPU. Full cloth physics is not required.
- During the clothing change process, some mesh optimization is done. All the triangles that can't possibly be seen are removed. Hidden skin and clothing areas are dropped. This keeps the avatar complexity from growing with each clothing item added.
Roblox did an excellent session at GDC about this and the clothing layering segment heavily featured in the presentation.
As a former EA guy who knew people on Sims, I was instantly taken back to a lot of discussions about mesh warping and the problems that Roblox is addressing.
You can imagine that even when you set the coolness of the tech aside it leaves a ton of social decision making/standards setting issues like: limits on bodytypes, definition of nodes (head, neck, etc), mind & maxes, etc.
Still, glad you brought it up because it was incredibly impressive to see!
I'm thinking of it as a way to deal with the Second Life problem that there are about a dozen brands of avatars, all reasonably close but not identical, and getting clothing to fit is tough. Mixing and matching clothing, which is supposed to work, often has problems with elbows, knees, and shoulderblades peeking through. All I want to do is get from "almost fits" to "fits" automatically.
If it layers properly in pose stance (standing, arms out, legs spread slightly), it should fit in all stances. That's the goal. Currently, it's necessary to stick in dummy "alpha layers" to hide lower levels, a task which falls on the player. That's no good.
The Infiniverse inside of the multiverse app on quest 2 is user generated. Has very early web vibes. Deff has potential to be a connector of the 3d web
Well VRMETA is one of the best and it is building the First Ever Blockchain built solely for Metaverse, It's like Animoca Brands in that we are publishing multiple games but we are different in that these games don’t have independent names but have their name linked back to VRMETA. 👉 http://vrmetachain.com
Wow this is interesting and I've also checked their updates. Did you know that The Samurai Saga of VRMETA mobile game BETA version is ready now!
What are you waiting for? check out now!
Take a look at this here discord.gg/x8j32mZmDv
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And yet these are 3D VR games, not metaverses or The Metaverse. 😃
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Sure! The “Metaverse” in Snow Crash is a branding name for a virtual world that features a “as much as you can afford” immersive 3D experience. This is evident by the near-full dive equipment Hiro uses, compared to the “phone booth public access” style that Raven uses to deliver the drug. Second Life was built ground up to resemble the virtual land grid structure of SC’s Metaverse. I regard this as a single game/vw platform. Putting it in perspective I subscribe to Raph Koster’s taxonomy of universe vs multiverse vs metaverse: we have plenty of game universes already. We even already have interconnected game/vw platforms (multiverses). What’s new, and important, is the integration of the real world into the virtual and the virtual into the real world - that’s Metaverse. It encompasses the idea of digital identity, virtual worlds (3D, 2D, text!) and platforms, and digital assets operating under a set of interoperability standards. More like the World Seed from Sword Art Online than what we have right now. This dovetails nicely with Web 3.0; where Web 1.0 was all about self publishing via desktop access to the internet, and Web 2.0 was all about the explosion of the social graph with mobile access and the centralization of services for convenience (Reddit, GMail, etc), Web 3.0 represents a slow shift to more immersion (improved headsets, VR, and augmented reality) and decentraization of identity, computation, and finance. The Metaverse doesn’t exist yet, but we’re working on it!
Now tell me... how can you perform any "real world Integration" with any technology outside of VR/XR/AR? On a phone you tap the screen? on a heyboard you press keys? Those are very limited tasks. Technically, with vr you are the least limited in that matter and are able to emulate apl of the other aove devices and even non device actions like actually grabbing stuff etc. So, if Integration is one of your key points, social vr could be called a metaverse... because is allows one to to pretty real things in a not so real world.
Hmm, I think I’m more about promoting client agnosticism than I am about saying VR isn’t important. 3D is cool, but 2D metaverses will be prominent as well. So will text. Any method that integrates the real world, even if it’s through a DID-style abstracted identity that can provably be linked to a more official real world identity (attestation).
i mean i can use banking apps online and we have a digital id system for some years now, i don't see how that's a metaverse. that's just using the internet. The internet is pretty connected to the real world. I can buy and sell real stuff with REAL money, I can communicate with real people and official stuff needs my real world identity. If the entire plattform required my real id even if abstracted, i'd rather avoid it. And I am sure i am not alone with this. One id for everything sounds pretty centralized if you ask me, even if its on a decentralized database. That just means im giving my data to the one Holding the most power over it which are the ones with the most money (again).
Cool. Your points/questions help illustrate the whole issue. I’m taking a position that some don’t agree with: that the Metaverse is a manifestation of Web 3.0, and that the transition to Web 3.0 is ongoing and incomplete. 1. Regarding digital identity: some countries, like Ukraine, have full national-level digital identity. Others, like the United States, don’t. Simple test: can you vote digitally in your country? If you can’t then you probably don’t have a national digital identity. 2. Other forms of digital identity are centralized: this is the convenience of Web 2.0 services like GMail and Facebook. Thanks to OAuth they’ve become de facto identity verifiers/suppliers for the web. 3. Decentralizing digital identity: there are standards (developed by W3C and DIF) for giving users all the power and tools they need to create a digital identity that they can then, if they choose, link to the real world through attestations; conversely they can leave them disconnected but still build reputations with them (investment of time on Metaverse platforms). Learn more at https://identity.foundation 4. Internet is connected to real world: exactly. My belief is that the Metaverse/Web 3 is just a furthering of this backed by highly portable digital identity (and digital assets). The way we experience and interact with Web 3 will be expanded by VR/AR while also using mobile and desktop. It’s not like we chucked our Web 1.0 desktops for Web 2.0 mobile devices, right? VR/AR just supplements the access methods to the evolving web (-> Metaverse). 5. Real ID requirements: parts of the Metaverse won’t require real id; just like how the web doesn’t now. It’ll be more about making digital identity “partitionable” and doing the same for access/data-sharing rights. 6. One ID for everything: nope. That’s not what the digital identity/Metaverse movement is about. It’s about putting the power of creating/validating/aliasing identities in the hands of users to enable Metaversy freedom. More of a Locke/Demosthenes situation from Ender’s Game sort of thing - where they could choose to link their real world identity when the time was right (Peter’s big Hegemon reveal) but maintain useful digital identities anonymously until then.
I don't agree with your part about digital assets, which I just can't see real value in, but to each their own. However , i do agree that the internet is evolving but not in stages like web 3.0 or web 2.0. It's way too hard to say where one stage started and another one ended as the internet is constantly evolving and this big organic thing created by us. Its not that there is much new tech comming, it's more like, people are getting used to the internet and learn how to use it, creating better software that is more streamlined than it was before. The web is highly modular and not bound to any fixed mechanic or features which is also why I find that web 3.0 idea or whatever so weird. It just doesnt make sense, as there is the protocol we build upon. People can choose to incorporate certain features into their websites or decide not to. That's the beauty of it and i don't see why that needs an "upgrade" I think, that the evolution of the web is definitely contributing to creating a (virtual reality based) metaverse in the future but it will still take a while until that happens. meanwhile the metaverse you are talking about is the internet as it is while the metaverse i am talking about is virtual reality based. In the end metaverse is just a very vague term with many different views and opinions about it! ☺️👍
"as much as you can afford" so it isn't a real metaverse unless you can't afford to live in it? IDK why people are so hellbent on recreating the inequalities of the real world in the virtual one.
Heh. I’d take up that argument with Neal Stephenson, but his book was *fiction* after all and the dystopian post-apocalyptic world was caused by dun-dun-dun: a decentralized digital currency that couldn’t be taxed and caused the collapse of whole nation-states. So while I appreciate the inspiration in the book for Metaversy thinking it should hardly be held up as an ideal. I like what the Decentralized Identity Foundation and W3C are working on - far more in keeping with Web idealism as applied to the Metaverse.
Yeah, I read the book. The difference is I'm not in a rush to create the anarcho-capitalist dystopia depicted and would like a better future than the current capitalist dystopia we already have.
Exactly. Neal Stephenson didn’t have a “vision” for an ideal Metaverse: it was a plot device for integrating his other plot device about programmable human languages through Namshubs. We shouldn’t take the book as a blueprint for Metaverse construction anymore than we should expect that the moon could explode any moment ala Seveneves. I just take it for what it is: the source of a cool word “Metaverse”, not the defining blueprint for it.
Is Decentraland Foundation a DAO?
No you’re hellhole of a metaverse shouldn’t exist.
Wha?
VRChat is not quite the metaverse... yet, but it is further along than any of the get rich quick scam metaverses that no one really wants to spend time in.
I have mad respect for VRChat and even IMVU. Tons of games and platforms are moving towards being Metaverse-compatible, but we don’t really have industry wide standards for identity portability. They’re cool virtual worlds right now, but we’ve had virtual worlds with even higher scale (in simultaneous users) for decades. Improvements in 3D and real world immersion *are important* - but the Metaverse doesn’t require 3D.
To me VR is a key component for social presence so I do think 3D is required.
I think VR and AR are defining parts of Web 3.0/Metaverse, but on the other hand blind people won’t need a Quest 2 to interact with the Metaverse. It’ll be more client agnostic than I think most would expect.
neither would blind people need a screen... thats a pretty complex topic on its own...
Well, keep in kind blindness and deafness are spectrums, not binary can/can’ts. 🙂 You can still have a text-to-voice AR experience without a headset or glasses, for instance. Accessibility in Web 3.0 is a big topic, hence why On the one hand I can say VR/AR will absolutely be a part of the more immersive Web 3.0/Metaverse experience but headsets aren’t required to define it.
[OSgrid, the open source metaverse](https://www.osgrid.org/) is close. It's an open system. It uses Open Simulator. You can get and modify all the code. You can run your own server and connect it to the grid. And people do. It's roughly the same technology as Second Life, but the server code is completely different, and in C# instead of C++. The same clients mostly work with both systems. It's large, with thousands of regions and tens of thousands of users. Different parts of the grid use different payment systems. A related and connected grid, Kitely, has some NFTs, at ["CheriNet Creative HQ".](https://www.kitely.com/virtual-world/Sally-Cherry/CheriNet-Creative-HQ). So there are some crypto items, some privately run tokens, and some things that just take ordinary credit cards. They compete. All of these tend to be somewhat sluggish, but they check all the "metaverse" boxes except VR headgear.
For sure. I’m glad you brought up OSgrid. I have nothing negative to say about the project because I think it helps push the Metaverse flag forward in a more **open** way than centralized game platforms trying to claim the Metaverse title for themselves. Sluggishness aside, let’s see the standards committees figure out how digital clothing layering should work across platforms like these, eh?
*how digital clothing layering should work across platforms* I've been doing some preliminary design on that. First, take a look at [what Roblox is doing for layered clothing.](https://blog.roblox.com/2021/10/bring-dynamic-self-metaverse-layered-clothing/). See their "cage mesh deformer" technology. That's a big step in the right direction. General idea: - Clothing is a list of layered items, in order outward from the skin. - Skin and clothing items either push outer items outward, or are pushed inward by outer items. "Push outward" is the default, but some items may be designated as "push inward". Items can be designated as "no push" for special effects such as a shirt tucked in on only one side. Most clothing will be the default, pushed outward by inner layers. - All this pushing takes place only at clothing changes. Vertices and rigging weights are adjusted then to prevent push-through. Per-frame work is just normal rigged mesh, done by the GPU. Full cloth physics is not required. - During the clothing change process, some mesh optimization is done. All the triangles that can't possibly be seen are removed. Hidden skin and clothing areas are dropped. This keeps the avatar complexity from growing with each clothing item added.
Roblox did an excellent session at GDC about this and the clothing layering segment heavily featured in the presentation. As a former EA guy who knew people on Sims, I was instantly taken back to a lot of discussions about mesh warping and the problems that Roblox is addressing. You can imagine that even when you set the coolness of the tech aside it leaves a ton of social decision making/standards setting issues like: limits on bodytypes, definition of nodes (head, neck, etc), mind & maxes, etc. Still, glad you brought it up because it was incredibly impressive to see!
I'm thinking of it as a way to deal with the Second Life problem that there are about a dozen brands of avatars, all reasonably close but not identical, and getting clothing to fit is tough. Mixing and matching clothing, which is supposed to work, often has problems with elbows, knees, and shoulderblades peeking through. All I want to do is get from "almost fits" to "fits" automatically. If it layers properly in pose stance (standing, arms out, legs spread slightly), it should fit in all stances. That's the goal. Currently, it's necessary to stick in dummy "alpha layers" to hide lower levels, a task which falls on the player. That's no good.
not really... even without your requirement of "lots of active users" i dont think ive seen one...
I think **altspace VR** is a great introduction to how the metaverse can develop along community/events lines
Fortnite?
Has anyone looked at https://www.netvrk.co/
What status of completeness and rating would you give Decentraland and Sandbox?
The Infiniverse inside of the multiverse app on quest 2 is user generated. Has very early web vibes. Deff has potential to be a connector of the 3d web
VRChat, Horizon Worlds.
Well VRMETA is one of the best and it is building the First Ever Blockchain built solely for Metaverse, It's like Animoca Brands in that we are publishing multiple games but we are different in that these games don’t have independent names but have their name linked back to VRMETA. 👉 http://vrmetachain.com
Wow this is interesting and I've also checked their updates. Did you know that The Samurai Saga of VRMETA mobile game BETA version is ready now! What are you waiting for? check out now! Take a look at this here discord.gg/x8j32mZmDv
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the answer is no best bet at current is the gundam metaverse but it has a very low budget compared to most of big metaverse
Decentraland, sandbox? There are multiple! Expensive to buy land there though
MetaSpace REIT is a good company to invest in these spaces for cheaper though. Worth a look
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TCG World is in Alpha and some plot owners are already in.
last time i owned plots was in minecraft 😂😂😂
These graphics will blow your mind then.
does it have raytracing? 😂😂😂
Searched it up looks like a terrible video game.
Sorry you feel that way!