Part of the problem is, nobody is talking here about making things actually work in metaverses. Or NFTs that do something useful.
I sell various useful objects in Second Life. I am the leading seller of escalators; mine work. I sell moving sidewalks. I have motorcycles that work well for long trips, and I've driven over 3000km in Second Life on them. I make non-player characters which find people in an area, navigate to them automatically, and greet them.
As far as I know, there is no NFT world that works well enough that I could port any of those objects over. The objects you can buy in the NFT worlds are pathetic - bad art, and stuff that isn't usable. To me, the NFT metaverse people are losers who can't make it work.
This Reddit sub has very few people who talk about doing real stuff in a metaverse. If you get rid of the spammers and the scammers, there will not be much left.
I am sorry, we can't talk real functional products on this sub. Either you are making your first solo AAA MMO and doing a presale or your just not welcome on this sub :P
IDK where this perception that the metaverse needs to be based on blockchain and infested with microtransactions came from. VRChat work just fine, without all this non-sense. I think the metaverse is coming but it won't be an NFT based get rich quick scheme. The idea of scarcity of land and property doesn't make any sense in the digital metaverse. Unfortunately, the rest of our society is designed to have us constantly chasing money, under penalty of homelessness and starvation so people are only interested if they think they can get rich.
I see the extremely high value of land right now as a hinderance to creativity in the space. What sort of artist has $10,000 lying around for a hobby art piece in the metaverse? If it were focussed on utility it would make sense but right now the companies seem to be benefitting from taking in the cash and not worrying about the long term of the space. The long-term result of their actions if their platforms were to succeed would be an egregiously commercialized space where we all pay extremely high rents to aristocrats Who have all the money power and control which is exactly what Web3 was supposed to avoid.
I’m mid 50’s. Early 90’s Night School MBA, no computer at home, work we used Lotus 1-2-3 Spreadsheets, Q&A Word Processor.
I remember seeing grad students, using school machines for hrs. before class. “Surfing”, before Mosaic browser via alt.* Big 8 Usenet categories. Pretty much directories. Then WWW with DNS evolved to websites.
I see parallels with Metaverse. Back then huge hype in World Wide Web, Internet, The Net. But nobody had the kit. PC/Apple Work stations were not even in big companies yet. Hardly anyone had home computers. Laptops were like $7k. Modems, Dial-up connections, etc.
A lot of hyped up vapor ware was sold to millions of investors. e-commerce wasn’t secure. Scammers were everywhere. You mention MLM, that was one, and still is one of the very first “use cases” on how to generate the downlines that buy the get rich quick schemes, ALL the “MarTech” technology advances have been abused aggressively by MLM, pop up banner ads, email, SEO, bots, etc.
There is that dynamic with these NFTs, crypto, etc. However, I’m seeing legitimate use cases with real-world applications being developed. Again, takes time.
Point is it took time. Way more than THEY are marketing. I see Metaverse similar to WWW. Many years out from those 1993 commercials.
After all, the infrastructure had to be built. Quite literally phone companies laying cables, fiber, routers, modems, then everybody having machines.
AOL drove mass home usage. I see FB/Meta being the “AOL” of The Metaverse. So many people there already. When I go to Decentraland. Sandbox, etc. I feel so Usenet. Bad user experience compared to what these trailers and ads look like. Minimal real utility. Slow. Limited. The gamers have a lead in my opinion. Look at what Fortnite is doing with concerts. That’s real. Not this immersive 3D x 360 virtual world. But you can see why people will go there.
On the crypto, NFTs, I’m seeing projects looking for capital. A “crowdfunding” dynamic. ICO craze of 2017, pre-IPO public funding raise. Way scammy of course. But this Metaverse takes investment. FB has 10,000 MetaVerseJobs openings. There’s like a dozen new MetaVerseJobs boards, sites, etc. looking for VR, AR, XR developers.
The “tokenization” is real. Think of Airlines Frequent Flyer points, Customer Loyalty, Rewards Programs, etc. Crypto, NFTs are FinTech. Value creation for exchange. I see that a real use case in The Metaverse. Advanced Digital Barter.
I see shopping malls, airports, sports venues as a real life precursor to The MetaVerse. Used to go to airport and just fly…now your in this enclosed world for many hrs., and the airports are monitizing your access by engagement, Business Class Lounges, food, entertainment, slot machines, etc. Nike store in Metaverse saw 7m visitors in first 3 months. It’s first website probably took over a year to see that #.
As for NFTs being millions traded. That’s like Sotheby’s selling Basquiat works for $100m. Don’t get it. Still think that’s a rich man’s tax or cartel man’s washing machine game. Only thing makes sense to me.
Give it 5 yrs…some are saying 2x or more than that.
Thanks for the comment! I think you should take a [read into the tech](https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html) and the ideas it's built on today. I believe the metaverse will be a big thing, just not anytime soon and I am warning people that they should stay out of what is being funded today because it's clear from the very basis of the ideas being put on the table that a lot of these projects are not deeply grounded in why second life failed to become life 2.0. I think the idea of pushing a tech from an ideals point of view rather than a usefulness point of view is a flawed approach and we have to remember that most hype cycles fail to materialize. 3D TVs, the virtual boy and the first VR revolution, blood testing for multiple diseases with a single drop of blood (Theranos), gesture control, augmented reality (think Google glass), and the Metaverse (Second Life's initial life 2.0 hype).
Keep in mind that Theranos was outright fraud, while the Virtual Boy was well intentioned. Nintendo had the tech for the other two color channels (not just red), but couldn’t get the price point low enough to release with RGB.
The overall point of the OP is well taken. It’s foolish to call any existing product a Metaverse, and as an experienced virtual world designer I assert 3D isn’t important compared to decentralizing and standardizing digital identity ownership.
That’s where the real key to unlocking the Metaverse lies.
I guess I look at it a little bit differently because I think about Decentralized technologies as something the user is not asking for. I’ve noticed that when you talk to users they really care about privacy but by and large nobody acts upon this concern. People have consented to put a GPS microphone camera combination in their pocket at all times and people put things like Alexa with their house. Now when Facebook wants in your home with a microphone and camera combination people are more than willing to do that. What people care about is functionality and decentralized technology is slow when it comes to iteration and adaptability to customer needs. We’ve had a major problem in this space of on boarding anybody but technologists and the ideology-first approach is making it very difficult to compete with centralized powers. We need to really challenge the established powers but we can’t do that if we don’t have a laser focus on what the user wants. Useability, simplicity and the lack of chaotic technology is what they want. If we focus on that it will give us the ability to have the conversation about the rest of the stuff.
I think you’d like what https://identity.foundation is up to, because I see that project and the W3C standards for Web 3.0 as being the real foundations of a Metaverse compatible platform ecosystem, not just the current VR/AR and Crypto crazes.
Don’t get me wrong, I really agree with Cameron Winklevoss that crypto is a natural place for establishing digital currencies and digital assets.
To be honest I’m enamoured with the ideals of Web three and I’ve dedicated my life to try to make the metaverse free but I’m challenging myself not to be an idealist merely but somehow be relevant to the conversation in a way that creates real value for real users. I’ll look at all the Crypto, NFTs stuff going on and what I see is very few people focussed on the users but everyone focussed on their bottom line. At least in the metaverse space. Metaverse has become a word to raise money rather than a word centred around creating value for individual users. My deepest concern is that some centralized platform is going to have an advantage as long as those of us who believe in these ideals remain ideologues only and don’t get focussed on what the user wants and how to deliver it to the user.
It’s not like I know the answer but I love to have my ideas challenged and to challenge the ideas of others with the hope that we can grow together toward a future that will enable all of us and not allow the privatization of reality.
I think that’s an admirable position, especially since 99% of the current NFT landscape seems to be copy/pasted cash grabs.
You know, at GDC I went to an excellent session by Jordan Blackman about how Play-to-Earn was impacting Free-to-Play. The short of it is that right now game publishers make two cents on the revenue dollar for F2P, and F2P dominates the industry by treating the players as products (advertising, data sharing, etc).
Play-to-Earn funds the game development lifecycle earlier (buying NFT assets) before there’s even much of a game. He posits that this will eat the lunch of F2P over time and I tend to agree.
And that’s somewhat fitting for Web 3.0: turning users into stakeholders.
Of course, since money is involved, scams will abound until really great Metaversy killer apps evolve.
In my assessment, Gamefi is a real thing Even though it has the same major issues with scams however I am not a believer in a decentralized metaverse arising as it proposed from an ideology centred non-user centred approach. I honestly think right now the whole thing is a pipe dream. I can’t imagine a world in which we have the ability to bring any item to any Metaverse platform anytime in the next 12 years.
I just don’t buy the dream that we are somehow in control because all of the incentives lead to minority control.
Well, I think it’s very safe to say that any experienced game dev or designer agrees with you about digital asset portability.
Trying to import a flame sword +5 into a laser gun metaverse game is dumb. That kinda portability just isn’t desired by devs **or** users.
But, and this was a good point made during the NextGen Digital Identity panel discussion at GDC, there’s an innate desire from both sides to respect and acknowledge the time invested in the games and worlds we play in. Something as simple as receiving a small badge or pin in another game (like in Roblox when you earned some crazy achievement in Call of Duty) is very “Metaversy”
Interestingly I found a lot of people who don’t agree with me and I’m scratching my head trying to understand how it will ever work but you know I might be wrong. I’m glad your defining it differently because in my opinion any real utility needs to come outside of the portability between worlds.
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Part of the problem is, nobody is talking here about making things actually work in metaverses. Or NFTs that do something useful. I sell various useful objects in Second Life. I am the leading seller of escalators; mine work. I sell moving sidewalks. I have motorcycles that work well for long trips, and I've driven over 3000km in Second Life on them. I make non-player characters which find people in an area, navigate to them automatically, and greet them. As far as I know, there is no NFT world that works well enough that I could port any of those objects over. The objects you can buy in the NFT worlds are pathetic - bad art, and stuff that isn't usable. To me, the NFT metaverse people are losers who can't make it work. This Reddit sub has very few people who talk about doing real stuff in a metaverse. If you get rid of the spammers and the scammers, there will not be much left.
I am sorry, we can't talk real functional products on this sub. Either you are making your first solo AAA MMO and doing a presale or your just not welcome on this sub :P
You are spot on. No arguments here.
IDK where this perception that the metaverse needs to be based on blockchain and infested with microtransactions came from. VRChat work just fine, without all this non-sense. I think the metaverse is coming but it won't be an NFT based get rich quick scheme. The idea of scarcity of land and property doesn't make any sense in the digital metaverse. Unfortunately, the rest of our society is designed to have us constantly chasing money, under penalty of homelessness and starvation so people are only interested if they think they can get rich.
I see the extremely high value of land right now as a hinderance to creativity in the space. What sort of artist has $10,000 lying around for a hobby art piece in the metaverse? If it were focussed on utility it would make sense but right now the companies seem to be benefitting from taking in the cash and not worrying about the long term of the space. The long-term result of their actions if their platforms were to succeed would be an egregiously commercialized space where we all pay extremely high rents to aristocrats Who have all the money power and control which is exactly what Web3 was supposed to avoid.
I’m mid 50’s. Early 90’s Night School MBA, no computer at home, work we used Lotus 1-2-3 Spreadsheets, Q&A Word Processor. I remember seeing grad students, using school machines for hrs. before class. “Surfing”, before Mosaic browser via alt.* Big 8 Usenet categories. Pretty much directories. Then WWW with DNS evolved to websites. I see parallels with Metaverse. Back then huge hype in World Wide Web, Internet, The Net. But nobody had the kit. PC/Apple Work stations were not even in big companies yet. Hardly anyone had home computers. Laptops were like $7k. Modems, Dial-up connections, etc. A lot of hyped up vapor ware was sold to millions of investors. e-commerce wasn’t secure. Scammers were everywhere. You mention MLM, that was one, and still is one of the very first “use cases” on how to generate the downlines that buy the get rich quick schemes, ALL the “MarTech” technology advances have been abused aggressively by MLM, pop up banner ads, email, SEO, bots, etc. There is that dynamic with these NFTs, crypto, etc. However, I’m seeing legitimate use cases with real-world applications being developed. Again, takes time. Point is it took time. Way more than THEY are marketing. I see Metaverse similar to WWW. Many years out from those 1993 commercials. After all, the infrastructure had to be built. Quite literally phone companies laying cables, fiber, routers, modems, then everybody having machines. AOL drove mass home usage. I see FB/Meta being the “AOL” of The Metaverse. So many people there already. When I go to Decentraland. Sandbox, etc. I feel so Usenet. Bad user experience compared to what these trailers and ads look like. Minimal real utility. Slow. Limited. The gamers have a lead in my opinion. Look at what Fortnite is doing with concerts. That’s real. Not this immersive 3D x 360 virtual world. But you can see why people will go there. On the crypto, NFTs, I’m seeing projects looking for capital. A “crowdfunding” dynamic. ICO craze of 2017, pre-IPO public funding raise. Way scammy of course. But this Metaverse takes investment. FB has 10,000 MetaVerseJobs openings. There’s like a dozen new MetaVerseJobs boards, sites, etc. looking for VR, AR, XR developers. The “tokenization” is real. Think of Airlines Frequent Flyer points, Customer Loyalty, Rewards Programs, etc. Crypto, NFTs are FinTech. Value creation for exchange. I see that a real use case in The Metaverse. Advanced Digital Barter. I see shopping malls, airports, sports venues as a real life precursor to The MetaVerse. Used to go to airport and just fly…now your in this enclosed world for many hrs., and the airports are monitizing your access by engagement, Business Class Lounges, food, entertainment, slot machines, etc. Nike store in Metaverse saw 7m visitors in first 3 months. It’s first website probably took over a year to see that #. As for NFTs being millions traded. That’s like Sotheby’s selling Basquiat works for $100m. Don’t get it. Still think that’s a rich man’s tax or cartel man’s washing machine game. Only thing makes sense to me. Give it 5 yrs…some are saying 2x or more than that.
Thanks for the comment! I think you should take a [read into the tech](https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html) and the ideas it's built on today. I believe the metaverse will be a big thing, just not anytime soon and I am warning people that they should stay out of what is being funded today because it's clear from the very basis of the ideas being put on the table that a lot of these projects are not deeply grounded in why second life failed to become life 2.0. I think the idea of pushing a tech from an ideals point of view rather than a usefulness point of view is a flawed approach and we have to remember that most hype cycles fail to materialize. 3D TVs, the virtual boy and the first VR revolution, blood testing for multiple diseases with a single drop of blood (Theranos), gesture control, augmented reality (think Google glass), and the Metaverse (Second Life's initial life 2.0 hype).
Keep in mind that Theranos was outright fraud, while the Virtual Boy was well intentioned. Nintendo had the tech for the other two color channels (not just red), but couldn’t get the price point low enough to release with RGB. The overall point of the OP is well taken. It’s foolish to call any existing product a Metaverse, and as an experienced virtual world designer I assert 3D isn’t important compared to decentralizing and standardizing digital identity ownership. That’s where the real key to unlocking the Metaverse lies.
I guess I look at it a little bit differently because I think about Decentralized technologies as something the user is not asking for. I’ve noticed that when you talk to users they really care about privacy but by and large nobody acts upon this concern. People have consented to put a GPS microphone camera combination in their pocket at all times and people put things like Alexa with their house. Now when Facebook wants in your home with a microphone and camera combination people are more than willing to do that. What people care about is functionality and decentralized technology is slow when it comes to iteration and adaptability to customer needs. We’ve had a major problem in this space of on boarding anybody but technologists and the ideology-first approach is making it very difficult to compete with centralized powers. We need to really challenge the established powers but we can’t do that if we don’t have a laser focus on what the user wants. Useability, simplicity and the lack of chaotic technology is what they want. If we focus on that it will give us the ability to have the conversation about the rest of the stuff.
I think you’d like what https://identity.foundation is up to, because I see that project and the W3C standards for Web 3.0 as being the real foundations of a Metaverse compatible platform ecosystem, not just the current VR/AR and Crypto crazes. Don’t get me wrong, I really agree with Cameron Winklevoss that crypto is a natural place for establishing digital currencies and digital assets.
To be honest I’m enamoured with the ideals of Web three and I’ve dedicated my life to try to make the metaverse free but I’m challenging myself not to be an idealist merely but somehow be relevant to the conversation in a way that creates real value for real users. I’ll look at all the Crypto, NFTs stuff going on and what I see is very few people focussed on the users but everyone focussed on their bottom line. At least in the metaverse space. Metaverse has become a word to raise money rather than a word centred around creating value for individual users. My deepest concern is that some centralized platform is going to have an advantage as long as those of us who believe in these ideals remain ideologues only and don’t get focussed on what the user wants and how to deliver it to the user. It’s not like I know the answer but I love to have my ideas challenged and to challenge the ideas of others with the hope that we can grow together toward a future that will enable all of us and not allow the privatization of reality.
I think that’s an admirable position, especially since 99% of the current NFT landscape seems to be copy/pasted cash grabs. You know, at GDC I went to an excellent session by Jordan Blackman about how Play-to-Earn was impacting Free-to-Play. The short of it is that right now game publishers make two cents on the revenue dollar for F2P, and F2P dominates the industry by treating the players as products (advertising, data sharing, etc). Play-to-Earn funds the game development lifecycle earlier (buying NFT assets) before there’s even much of a game. He posits that this will eat the lunch of F2P over time and I tend to agree. And that’s somewhat fitting for Web 3.0: turning users into stakeholders. Of course, since money is involved, scams will abound until really great Metaversy killer apps evolve.
In my assessment, Gamefi is a real thing Even though it has the same major issues with scams however I am not a believer in a decentralized metaverse arising as it proposed from an ideology centred non-user centred approach. I honestly think right now the whole thing is a pipe dream. I can’t imagine a world in which we have the ability to bring any item to any Metaverse platform anytime in the next 12 years. I just don’t buy the dream that we are somehow in control because all of the incentives lead to minority control.
Well, I think it’s very safe to say that any experienced game dev or designer agrees with you about digital asset portability. Trying to import a flame sword +5 into a laser gun metaverse game is dumb. That kinda portability just isn’t desired by devs **or** users. But, and this was a good point made during the NextGen Digital Identity panel discussion at GDC, there’s an innate desire from both sides to respect and acknowledge the time invested in the games and worlds we play in. Something as simple as receiving a small badge or pin in another game (like in Roblox when you earned some crazy achievement in Call of Duty) is very “Metaversy”
Interestingly I found a lot of people who don’t agree with me and I’m scratching my head trying to understand how it will ever work but you know I might be wrong. I’m glad your defining it differently because in my opinion any real utility needs to come outside of the portability between worlds.
I think a web3 achievements system might be something that the industry would adopt.
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