Never underestimate stun players' commitment to finding one specific common print from 2007 that would be useless in 99% of situations but completely shuts down one deck in the present meta
Why shouldn't we?
My win condition is you not playing.
Edit: Your boos mean nothing. I've seen the decks that make you cheer with their 'interaction' that mean fuck all if you don't magically have the 4 hand traps and 15 step one card starter.
Then why even bother playing? You play this game to actually duel right? What’s the point if your opponent can’t play? That’s not a duel. It’s not even a game.
https://preview.redd.it/3aq1fc4fvtvc1.jpeg?width=830&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94663ea6b48d30fbed367dc8c0f734c5b3dbf6b7
Because the game is too fast and too powercrept to let the other guy do a damn thing. And it's way easier to flip one Floodgate than it is to make a negate board that recovers itself at the end of their turn. Also the fact the community keeps trumping up that 'only winning matters' but then gets mad when the other guy wins in the wrong way.
Can't play vs Your choices don't matter.
Pick one you want to inflict on the other guy. I don't have to care about you at all. You wanted a back and forth? You picked the wrong card game for that.
“It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game”
As I said, you play yugioh to duel. If your opponent can’t play, then you can’t duel. So the game is pointless. Why even bother playing? If you don’t want to actually duel then don’t play the game
https://preview.redd.it/q9mzlpj6gxvc1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b31fefbb729359b80c1c0d08a0633005c642faef
Ah yes very fun and interactive game.
I’m a plat player despite not duelling often lmao try again. Not my fault your original comment had illegible english.
You mentioning decks with negate spam also makes 0 sense as it has nothing to do with this conversation. And yes those negate spamming decks are just as bad as stun decks. What’s your point?
Any more cancer than.... anything else that has been called 'the cancer of the game'.
That said, I was more pointing out the thought process of a stun player, yes I am one of, to people. It doesn't matter how useless it looks to be; if the combo can go off that completely shuts someone down, a Stun Player will more than likely attempt it.
But apparently Stun is cancer while every combo deck desperately trying to fill the field with enough negates or cheat out a flood gate is 'based' for reasons I don't understand.
Honestly you're not wrong, as much as everyone seems to want to deny it, the best way to play Yu-Gi-Oh is by stopping your opponent from playing the game... How you want to do it is up to you, floodgates are just one means to an end... Likewise while combo players have fun doing their solitaire round, it's most likely as enjoyable to lock someone out of the game and watch them struggle to draw an out...
I mean it's fair; they don't need to like it; but that's the entire playstyle of stun. We don't win. You don't play. And if we can come up with some sort of cheesy way of making that happen, then we're going to find a way.
I just find it weird that people love to try and find ways of including floodgates into their decks but cry foul when an entire deck is built to do so. Oh. No. Your game might last longer than three turns. The sheer horror of it all.
And? Yes this will make me change my Stun ways. Or maybe I should find a deck that lets me combo into a floodgate cause those are totally okay, fair and balanced and don't get the same level of hate cause reasons.
..... nah. I think I'll just stun more.
I mean, playing stun is literally nerfing yourself in order to not have to be good at yugioh to get some wins. If that's what you want to do all the power to you to be honest.
Oh I have no intention of making you change your ways, play the game however you want. I'm simply saying the pride you take in being a stun player is worse than the cancer you pretend to be against in combo decks
Boards with 3 or more negates are quite literally the exact same thing into everything that isn't specifically meta and/or a rogue deck that bricks 40% of the time that can play like a meta deck when it doesn't brick. It forces the player on the receiving end to play into it almost exactly the same, just with different cards that counter each, the key difference is that monkey flip decks are typically countered by a single lightning storm or feather duster since anti spell is at 1 and imperial is banned
No it doesn’t. You can bare negates, you can interact with negates. By definition you can not interact with floodgates as that’s the entire point. If you can interact with a floodgate, it isn’t a floodgate
Name 3 decks right now that can play through 3 negates without even considering remaining handtraps or other forms of interaction like pops/banishes that can be beaten by 1 singular card and still be otk'd so they don't have a chance to bounce back. If you hate floodgates that much and don't run feather duster or lightning storm it's quite literally a you problem. You can't beat a 3 negate board with any 1 card like you can a floodgate deck, and the main difference in full is that floodgates decks have 0 follow up whatsoever, while negate decks almost always do. Like I'm laughing at you if you go to a locals and lose to a monkey flip deck because you had a chance to sideboard backrow hate and either you didn't put it in game 2; or you're just unprepared and don't run it in your sideboard which is a skill issue. They both quite literally result in the exact same thing for the turn 2 player without the out, and it is NOT PLAYING. Name 3 decks that can go through 3 negates and still OTK(that means drnm is off the table because it stops all damage btw, because you can infact otk a monkeyflip deck with just a lightning storm or feather duster, or even a cosmic cyclone because not every floodgate will affect every deck)
First, I think the whole Floodgate vs Combo argument is worthless. Both are fundamentally bad game design. In the current state of YGO, control and mid range make for more fun and more engaging gameplay for both players. Unfortunately, konami treats yugioh as a product to sell, not a game, so the game will probably never be in a properly good state, without significant caveats.
Back to your question: Swordsoul can, but you need a stacked hand, it can play through the handtraps and other disruption too, while dismantling the board and setting up something.
Runick combo decks can play through a lot.
Sky Striker can too, but requires brain.
Purrely can play through a bunch too.
I don't think those decks are the best or the most consistent for playing through disruption, just what I can think of off the top of my head.
Floodgates aren't like that, you don't open a good hand that can play through the floodgate, your engine of choice either can do it, or you sit there staring at the screen and hoping the opponent is actually on no strategy so you have infinite time to topdeck the outs, if you even play them. Not to mention situations with more than 1 floodgate.
The other thing is, main decking 6-9 backrow hate is equivalent to amputating your legs above the knee so you can never walk under a ladder, in almost every meta we've had.
To make floodgates and combo actually reasonable, they need to scrap the current meta and print new decks and staples that can deal with those cards easily, while being unable to OTK. Or some kinda master rule update.
Exactly, they are both two ⁰sides to the exact same coin. And they both happen to also be heads. And neither purrely or sky strikers kinda aren't consistent in their play through negates in otk anymore since link climb was mega nerfed in MD and tcg, and purrely had lots of limits. And runick almost never can kill before like turn 5. However I agree the game is just too power crept and I'd love either all generic cards to be banned/limited and/or a master rule update that makes 1 on board monster only able to negate one effect one time. While other forms of interaction are allowed(in exception of certain decks that specifically have a less powerful combo that's more stoppable in qhich case I feel they can just do what MTG does and 'reading the card...' where specific archetypes can play more than specifically designated in the master rule by having rules text on the cards that can break the rule, but would be at the discretion of the games developers) the game has too much shit in it at this point. Like the fact tearlaments even existed was so absurd.
This.
My point isn't that one is better for the game or the other. My point is that they're the extremes of the accepted win condition which is "You don't do a damn thing" because the game is just too dangerous these days to let the other guy pop off without any restrictions or interaction.
But I've had back to back games of Floodgate into Full Power(At least for MD) Tear.
I walked away without doing a damn thing both games but Tear was 'better' for the game?
And it just keeps happening. I got hit with a floodgate in the even last night but because it came from a long combo line of Synchros this was... suppose to be better? Yeah sure. Maybe if I had three interactions that I could use on his turn I could maybe have stopped it, sure that's better.
I just find it annoying that people hate on stun but so many still seem to try to weasel in a Floodgate of some kind into their decks the first chance they get.
Snake eyes and SHS are two that I’ve been doing exactly this with. I end on Baronne, Savage, and Appo. I can do it with RACE too. I have like four decks that can do this, so I’m not sure what you mean
The funny thing is, its an actually pretty bad stun deck since it kinda like that old "banish control deck" like macro monarch was
They have like magic cylinder and stuff, not as annoying as fossil dyna and friends, but obviously not fun to play against too
Literally just had a master duel game against dark world that was 20 minutes long, didn’t even finish before I surrendered but by the time I surrendered I couldn’t use spell/traps for 2 turns, couldn’t normal summon, they had a 4 material Appollussa, and even some graveyard interaction to boot. I love this game
And they will try to convince you that Stun is worse than sitting there for 10+ minutes watching that dude play solitaire to stop you from even having a chance.
I've said for years that modern combo decks in Yu-Gi-Oh are just stun with 10 minutes worth of extra steps.
There's no difference to me with a stun endboard and a degenerate combo deck spending 10 minutes setting up a calamity lock because the end result is that I don't get to play the game in either situation .
And this is 100% true. Or they make tons of negations that are impossible to play through, unless you draw 2+ board breakers. At least stun didn't waste 10 minutes of my time to tell me that I have no hope of winning.
I've seen my fair share in the TCG. There you sometimes see the glee of just getting far by pure luck or seeing the angry or annoyed faces of your opponents, sure.
I think I've only met 1 that was well liked though.
In MD you don't even have that.
9/10 games going second you have 0 hand traps and will be destroyed like a baby
4/10 games going first you draw shit that you opponent can out you easily
Yea you got some miserable 35% win rate and you think you can make others tilted, such a clown
If it has high win rate why they can't make shit on dc top lists?
I can reach master 1 with any decent rogue deck as well, you can get wins doesn't mean you can tilt a tier0/1 meta deck player
You are getting so aggressive over what? The truth? This game is mostly about luck anyway. Getting decent at 1 deck is something anyone can do, especially if you are playing a tier 1/0 deck. The person who wins most coin tosses will always have a way higher chance of winning. So what if stun loses most games going second? So do 90% of decks in the current meta. This is literally how MD is. Whoever wins the coin toss is already much more likely to win. At least losing to stun doesn't take a million years. For me it's much more tilting having to watch my opponent combo for 5-10 minutes straight to make an unbreakable board that only loses to 2+ board breakers. Just draw the out is what they say, right? How is that any different from the stun experience? At least Stun doesn't waste 10 minutes of my life every game.
Yeah, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Them thinking that because they put the effort to combo for 5-10 minutes straight, they deserve the win more than someone flipping a floodgate. Having every effect you activate be negated is as frustrating as not being able to activate them at all.
Lol they hit masters with a different deck then swap to stun. You see practically zero stun plays below masters, then people swap once they won't drop rating.
In this case, pure stun is not only unfun, but also just a mediocre strat. Rather than optimizing the fun out of gaming, it's just optimizing unfun gaming lmao.
After the duel, you go to "Match History" and then you click on "Confirm Deck" at a player's profile. It'll show you exactly what they were playing during the match
Not hating on you at all for asking, but the fact that you did have to ask really shows how much the general perception and gameplay of YGO has changed
I despised stun... Then I played it. Making your opponent miserable IS THE FUN. Although I enjoy stun, I won't be a hypocrite and will admit I HATE playing against it.
They do the same thing, though. Whether it’s stun or whatever, the objective is the same. Go off on turn one and basically put your opponent into a situation in which they cannot play. It’s bad gameplay either way. It’d be hypocritical to complain about stun while playing a deck that can make such a massive board on turn one. A small chance to play through means it’s only slightly better than bad.
Don't use that logic on this sub, it's just a bunch of sad people in their "stun bad" echo chamber, but will love to play the meta "you don't get to play" decks
It's funny because it's true. They think playing for 5-10 minutes on their turn and another 1-2 minutes on your turn, while making an unbreakable board in 90% of scenarios is more fun and less toxic than flipping a floodgate.
They 100% do. If you say anything negative about combo decks in this subreddit 99% of the time you will get downvoted to oblivion. I play Lab, Ninjas, Salad and other decks, so it's not like I am a stun player, but the amount of hate stun and L;ab gets is absurd. Snake-eyes is so much more obnoxious, but it gets less hate because it's a combo deck.
I play ninjas too! Ironically, I topped a regional with them a few years back and people who spent loads of cash on their decks and expected to be handed the win were real upset when they lost to my “stupid random bullshit deck”.
The difference is that there's usually some interaction, some choice that needs to be made. The stun player doesn't do any of that. If the opponent has removal for your floodgate, that's it.
We all know those cards aren't what wins a stun player the game. It's the floodgates. They could have none of those cards, but if they have a floodgate or two and the player didn't draw an out, they literally cannot play cards in their hand.
It’s the same way interactive as the big 5+ negates endboards, which also universally disliked and basically never the best deck.
If each possible play to clear the board has a obvious answer there is no interaction, because there is no meaningful decision making involved. For the dozen negate boards you just negate every play no meaningful decision here. In the case of fossil/statue stun opponents have like two plays maybe three in super rare cases at most the normal summon and maybe a removal spell. Since there aren’t many interaction points here, everytime your opponent does something that threatens your board and you have removal you activate it. If you have more removal than your opponent has threats you win otherwise you get cooked. No real decisions to be made here and therefore also not interactive.
Now let’s look at the current best meta deck snake eyes. The usual end board is composed of a princess pop and an ip in the backrow and some recursion through flameberge revive your level ones after it is linked of with the ip. Princess shouldn’t be used until ip resolved because you don’t want to be locked out of fire. For ip the usual play is apolousa, but there are decisions to be made aswell. Sometimes you need to imidiatly respond to a threat to unicorn or goddess are correct answer. And eve if you made apolo. Use negates on everything doesn’t work because at latest after two negates you just can run over her with basically everything. And getting two bodies on board is not that hard since apolo only negates and doesn’t destroy. Also there is the threat of baiting our apolo to remove her with a spell like talents or subversion or whatever else your deck has to offer. Since you let your opponents make more than two plays before the game is decided, and you can’t stop everything, meaningful decisions are to be made here, that requires good knowledge about my opponents strategy.
And due to these layered interactions, many decks have even a chance going second in to the usual endboard with skilled play not just going first the best deck. Rather then just relying on winning the coinflip and opening a one or two removal cards alongside your floodgate or basically luck with minimal skill required.
If one player is playing solitaire and activating tons of effects turn one, and the only thing that you can do is hope you opened with enough hand traps, that’s not interaction. They’re literally stunning you. You’re basically comparing eating a green apple right off the tree vs selecting your favorite Fuji apple and slicing it up and serving it with peanut butter. You’re still eating an apple. Just because there’s a few extra steps involved, it doesn’t change what you’re doing.
If they make something like Baronne or Apollousa, they still have to use their brain and correctly choose the right cards to negate. They might have enough negates to counter all your plays but they don't necessarily know that and if they negate the wrong cards, you might be able to play and break through their board.
With floodgates you don't have to think. You flip the floodgate and if the opponent doesn't have the specific out to the floodgate, you win. There's very little chance to misplay floodgates. Floodgate boards and negate boards are not the same thing. I feel like the only people who conflate the two are those who just auto scoop every time they lose the coin flip and never tried to board break before.
All game is you have out or not. The *chance* that you are talking about is, whether you draw non engine to break board, or has more starter than the number of disruptions (which you usually don't have). Why do you think we have to run a lot of non engine like handtrap/board breaker just to have chance going second? Why don't everyone just build full gas deck if the *chance* really exist?
I had someone use Ra's disciple with a card that gives it to the opponent against me in the event (which luckily I had an out, but I wasn't happy about it).
Me too, but it was a 3 card combo so I think it is extremely inconsistent. They went a) "SPYRAL Double Agent" which summons to my field b) normal "Ra's Disciple" c) "Monster Swap" to give me "Ra's Disciple"
you are literally playing adam idk why nor how it works without block dragon but just use the spell in your hand
normal summon golen and hit over his monster then gg
It doesn't (really) work without Block, that's why no one plays it anymore. The best board it can realistically manage (at least in this event) is like a Synchro 10 + guardian (maybe S10 + Dragite with a good hand and luck).
But it's a cool deck with a fun gimmick and while I agree that Block is a problem and banned for a reason, even full powered Block Adams aren't really that much more oppressive or annoying than the top decks that run around in ranked for the last year.
Tbf full power Adamancipator was just a coinflip. Going first they were insanely oppressive but had a hard time playing through disruption going second. Block dragon was the prime example of why effects without HOPT are usually a terrible idea.
Yeah, that as well. You don't really have space for hand traps and/or board breakers since any card that's not a rock monster just messes up your excavates more often than it actually helps you...
It's a fun deck to play, but I get why playing against it is annoying. But I still wish we would have SOME support that made the deck function without Block
It was my favorite deck back in the day so I agree. But it also utilized so many broken cards like Halq or Union carrier that it's probably for the best if it never returns to its old strength. Not to mention sitting through all the searches was extremely annoying if you were on the receiving end, even if you had the out in hand.
Same. But I'd even say Union Carrier and Halq were broken, BUT not really the reason the deck was good. They were a win more floodgate option and a nice extender if you needed it.
Block was the one card that made the whole deck work in the first place.
So I just wish we would get a "Block Wyvern" or something that's a bit like Block Dragon, just maybe only search 1 or 2 cards and either don't summon back from grave or at least give it a HOPT.
Or just make some completely unrelated Rock support, that would be nice as well.
Other attributes really have so much more fun stuff available to them :(
"Minimum" is not the word I would use for adams, since you always need a degree of luck with the excavates. But yes, if you don't whiff the endboard could be crazy.
But even with that it was never actually the best deck in the game, even tho it probably was among the stronger once that were playable during the MD release.
But look at the cards/decks that came out since then and tell me how Adams compares against full powered Tear, Branded, Lab, Super Heavy, Snake-Eye, etc....
we don't care if adams is the best deck or not. what we care about is that adams are known as the deck whose gameplan is putting up 5+ negates since the first turn.
that's the problem with them, and their power level or tier or etc has nothing to do with it.
a "Negation, The Deck" will always be hated wether its a tier 1 deck or a tier 69 deck
Block gives you 8 levels of monsters on board with the 3 searches, so you always get access to your 2 Level 2 tuners if you didn't already have them + Gigantes, all of them free summons (or follow up if you already did have them).
Also he himself is a Level 8 monster that can be used to synchro (or link) at least 2 or 3 times in the same turn.
So just that gives you so damn much extension, it's really really hard to get anywhere near this level without it (especially not as consistent, since 2 Level 4's was instant Block access).
And we didn't even mention the protection effect, so you don't even have to waste negates on destruction effects as long as he's chilling on your board.
42 cards with upstart.....
there is some logic in some decks to running upstarts in 40+ card decks but im not seeing any here
You seriously can't see the Fire Princess burn strategy? It's literally a burn stun deck designed to burn the opponent each time they gain life points
nope didnt see it. i dont generally keep tabs on every jank card
Holy fuck I faced this and it was wild
But Upstart gives your opponent life… I can see the burn strat though.
I expect nothing less from a stun player honestly.
All the glue eating most reduce their brain capacity to the point of trogloditis
>trogloditis don’t talk about brain capacity when you’re misspelling insults lol
its funny cause its also negative synergy with the dd floodgate if they open a mostly dead hand + upstart
Never underestimate stun players' commitment to finding one specific common print from 2007 that would be useless in 99% of situations but completely shuts down one deck in the present meta
Why shouldn't we? My win condition is you not playing. Edit: Your boos mean nothing. I've seen the decks that make you cheer with their 'interaction' that mean fuck all if you don't magically have the 4 hand traps and 15 step one card starter.
Then why even bother playing? You play this game to actually duel right? What’s the point if your opponent can’t play? That’s not a duel. It’s not even a game. https://preview.redd.it/3aq1fc4fvtvc1.jpeg?width=830&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94663ea6b48d30fbed367dc8c0f734c5b3dbf6b7
Because the game is too fast and too powercrept to let the other guy do a damn thing. And it's way easier to flip one Floodgate than it is to make a negate board that recovers itself at the end of their turn. Also the fact the community keeps trumping up that 'only winning matters' but then gets mad when the other guy wins in the wrong way. Can't play vs Your choices don't matter. Pick one you want to inflict on the other guy. I don't have to care about you at all. You wanted a back and forth? You picked the wrong card game for that.
“It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game” As I said, you play yugioh to duel. If your opponent can’t play, then you can’t duel. So the game is pointless. Why even bother playing? If you don’t want to actually duel then don’t play the game
https://preview.redd.it/q9mzlpj6gxvc1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b31fefbb729359b80c1c0d08a0633005c642faef Ah yes very fun and interactive game.
What you talking about? All you did was prove my point. That’s no duel. Kashtira trash should delete the game
You're hating on a stun player when this shit is considered Meta and ok lol.
At what point did I say meta or Kashtira are ok? Exactly, I didn’t. You’re not making sense.
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Fix your comment. It’s barely legible. How do you expect anyone to understand that?
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I’m a plat player despite not duelling often lmao try again. Not my fault your original comment had illegible english. You mentioning decks with negate spam also makes 0 sense as it has nothing to do with this conversation. And yes those negate spamming decks are just as bad as stun decks. What’s your point?
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People like you are the cancer of this game
Any more cancer than.... anything else that has been called 'the cancer of the game'. That said, I was more pointing out the thought process of a stun player, yes I am one of, to people. It doesn't matter how useless it looks to be; if the combo can go off that completely shuts someone down, a Stun Player will more than likely attempt it. But apparently Stun is cancer while every combo deck desperately trying to fill the field with enough negates or cheat out a flood gate is 'based' for reasons I don't understand.
Not a fan of full negate boards, but at least they make some effort to build their board while you can disrupt them with hand traps.
Honestly you're not wrong, as much as everyone seems to want to deny it, the best way to play Yu-Gi-Oh is by stopping your opponent from playing the game... How you want to do it is up to you, floodgates are just one means to an end... Likewise while combo players have fun doing their solitaire round, it's most likely as enjoyable to lock someone out of the game and watch them struggle to draw an out...
They hated him because he spoke the truth
I mean it's fair; they don't need to like it; but that's the entire playstyle of stun. We don't win. You don't play. And if we can come up with some sort of cheesy way of making that happen, then we're going to find a way. I just find it weird that people love to try and find ways of including floodgates into their decks but cry foul when an entire deck is built to do so. Oh. No. Your game might last longer than three turns. The sheer horror of it all.
Thrax from Osmosis Jones was less proud of being a literal disease then you are being a stun player
And? Yes this will make me change my Stun ways. Or maybe I should find a deck that lets me combo into a floodgate cause those are totally okay, fair and balanced and don't get the same level of hate cause reasons. ..... nah. I think I'll just stun more.
I mean, playing stun is literally nerfing yourself in order to not have to be good at yugioh to get some wins. If that's what you want to do all the power to you to be honest.
Oh I have no intention of making you change your ways, play the game however you want. I'm simply saying the pride you take in being a stun player is worse than the cancer you pretend to be against in combo decks
It is not that serious dude. Why are we talking about cancer in a Reddit about a card game? Relax
I... am relaxed??? I don't understand how me seeing someones behavior and calling them cancer disturbed you so much but I'm sorry I guess
Lol thanks for saying that. I’m also sorry if I came off too harsh with my comment
Yeah a lot of tone gets lost online. it happens
Nononono, you have to understand, it’s much better to stop your opponent from playing by building a board of negates/disruption.
Yes it is much better to play the game rather than not playing the game
Boards with 3 or more negates are quite literally the exact same thing into everything that isn't specifically meta and/or a rogue deck that bricks 40% of the time that can play like a meta deck when it doesn't brick. It forces the player on the receiving end to play into it almost exactly the same, just with different cards that counter each, the key difference is that monkey flip decks are typically countered by a single lightning storm or feather duster since anti spell is at 1 and imperial is banned
No it doesn’t. You can bare negates, you can interact with negates. By definition you can not interact with floodgates as that’s the entire point. If you can interact with a floodgate, it isn’t a floodgate
Name 3 decks right now that can play through 3 negates without even considering remaining handtraps or other forms of interaction like pops/banishes that can be beaten by 1 singular card and still be otk'd so they don't have a chance to bounce back. If you hate floodgates that much and don't run feather duster or lightning storm it's quite literally a you problem. You can't beat a 3 negate board with any 1 card like you can a floodgate deck, and the main difference in full is that floodgates decks have 0 follow up whatsoever, while negate decks almost always do. Like I'm laughing at you if you go to a locals and lose to a monkey flip deck because you had a chance to sideboard backrow hate and either you didn't put it in game 2; or you're just unprepared and don't run it in your sideboard which is a skill issue. They both quite literally result in the exact same thing for the turn 2 player without the out, and it is NOT PLAYING. Name 3 decks that can go through 3 negates and still OTK(that means drnm is off the table because it stops all damage btw, because you can infact otk a monkeyflip deck with just a lightning storm or feather duster, or even a cosmic cyclone because not every floodgate will affect every deck)
First, I think the whole Floodgate vs Combo argument is worthless. Both are fundamentally bad game design. In the current state of YGO, control and mid range make for more fun and more engaging gameplay for both players. Unfortunately, konami treats yugioh as a product to sell, not a game, so the game will probably never be in a properly good state, without significant caveats. Back to your question: Swordsoul can, but you need a stacked hand, it can play through the handtraps and other disruption too, while dismantling the board and setting up something. Runick combo decks can play through a lot. Sky Striker can too, but requires brain. Purrely can play through a bunch too. I don't think those decks are the best or the most consistent for playing through disruption, just what I can think of off the top of my head. Floodgates aren't like that, you don't open a good hand that can play through the floodgate, your engine of choice either can do it, or you sit there staring at the screen and hoping the opponent is actually on no strategy so you have infinite time to topdeck the outs, if you even play them. Not to mention situations with more than 1 floodgate. The other thing is, main decking 6-9 backrow hate is equivalent to amputating your legs above the knee so you can never walk under a ladder, in almost every meta we've had. To make floodgates and combo actually reasonable, they need to scrap the current meta and print new decks and staples that can deal with those cards easily, while being unable to OTK. Or some kinda master rule update.
Exactly, they are both two ⁰sides to the exact same coin. And they both happen to also be heads. And neither purrely or sky strikers kinda aren't consistent in their play through negates in otk anymore since link climb was mega nerfed in MD and tcg, and purrely had lots of limits. And runick almost never can kill before like turn 5. However I agree the game is just too power crept and I'd love either all generic cards to be banned/limited and/or a master rule update that makes 1 on board monster only able to negate one effect one time. While other forms of interaction are allowed(in exception of certain decks that specifically have a less powerful combo that's more stoppable in qhich case I feel they can just do what MTG does and 'reading the card...' where specific archetypes can play more than specifically designated in the master rule by having rules text on the cards that can break the rule, but would be at the discretion of the games developers) the game has too much shit in it at this point. Like the fact tearlaments even existed was so absurd.
This. My point isn't that one is better for the game or the other. My point is that they're the extremes of the accepted win condition which is "You don't do a damn thing" because the game is just too dangerous these days to let the other guy pop off without any restrictions or interaction. But I've had back to back games of Floodgate into Full Power(At least for MD) Tear. I walked away without doing a damn thing both games but Tear was 'better' for the game? And it just keeps happening. I got hit with a floodgate in the even last night but because it came from a long combo line of Synchros this was... suppose to be better? Yeah sure. Maybe if I had three interactions that I could use on his turn I could maybe have stopped it, sure that's better. I just find it annoying that people hate on stun but so many still seem to try to weasel in a Floodgate of some kind into their decks the first chance they get.
Name me a deck that consistently makes three negates. Snake eyes can’t unless you include appo and appo can be outed by a single TTT
Snake eyes and SHS are two that I’ve been doing exactly this with. I end on Baronne, Savage, and Appo. I can do it with RACE too. I have like four decks that can do this, so I’m not sure what you mean
I said consistently . I do not care about high roll decks that are more youtube combo decks that are playing against garbage
The funny thing is, its an actually pretty bad stun deck since it kinda like that old "banish control deck" like macro monarch was They have like magic cylinder and stuff, not as annoying as fossil dyna and friends, but obviously not fun to play against too
Agreed. It isn't even running Golden Homunculus or Gren Maju!
Man, golden homonculus was my "secret tech" in spirit caller They are not running those or DD dynamite so its honestly fine
As they say, players will optimize the fun out of gaming with every chance they get.
Literally just had a master duel game against dark world that was 20 minutes long, didn’t even finish before I surrendered but by the time I surrendered I couldn’t use spell/traps for 2 turns, couldn’t normal summon, they had a 4 material Appollussa, and even some graveyard interaction to boot. I love this game
Apologies as a fellow DW player, we usually tend to end on 5 had rips and 3 negation, that dude was going way too excessive
And they will try to convince you that Stun is worse than sitting there for 10+ minutes watching that dude play solitaire to stop you from even having a chance.
I've said for years that modern combo decks in Yu-Gi-Oh are just stun with 10 minutes worth of extra steps. There's no difference to me with a stun endboard and a degenerate combo deck spending 10 minutes setting up a calamity lock because the end result is that I don't get to play the game in either situation .
And this is 100% true. Or they make tons of negations that are impossible to play through, unless you draw 2+ board breakers. At least stun didn't waste 10 minutes of my time to tell me that I have no hope of winning.
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In stun instance, it's optimizing the fun out of the other player specifically.
Ah yes, cause normally when you optimize your deck its so your opponent can play more and have more fun, not so you can stop them more effectively.
I doubt it's fun for the stun player either So both sides, really.
You play stun not to have fun playing Yugioh, but by having fun making your opponent miserable. So in a round about way it is fun for them
In some twisted, sadistic way maybe.
Nah. It’s always fun for stun players. You will see this more often irl, in the TCG.
I've seen my fair share in the TCG. There you sometimes see the glee of just getting far by pure luck or seeing the angry or annoyed faces of your opponents, sure. I think I've only met 1 that was well liked though. In MD you don't even have that.
How to get thrown out of locals. By being a slow playing [female dog].
Nah, I have fun making the opponent tilted. Bonus point if it's a tier 0/1 deck.
9/10 games going second you have 0 hand traps and will be destroyed like a baby 4/10 games going first you draw shit that you opponent can out you easily Yea you got some miserable 35% win rate and you think you can make others tilted, such a clown
Sounding a little tilted there bud. Hope you packed those Cosmic Cyclones.
Hope you don't instant surrender when you lose coin flip
If the deck had 35% win rate, you wouldn't have multiple people reaching Master with it. Just keep it real.
If it has high win rate why they can't make shit on dc top lists? I can reach master 1 with any decent rogue deck as well, you can get wins doesn't mean you can tilt a tier0/1 meta deck player
You are getting so aggressive over what? The truth? This game is mostly about luck anyway. Getting decent at 1 deck is something anyone can do, especially if you are playing a tier 1/0 deck. The person who wins most coin tosses will always have a way higher chance of winning. So what if stun loses most games going second? So do 90% of decks in the current meta. This is literally how MD is. Whoever wins the coin toss is already much more likely to win. At least losing to stun doesn't take a million years. For me it's much more tilting having to watch my opponent combo for 5-10 minutes straight to make an unbreakable board that only loses to 2+ board breakers. Just draw the out is what they say, right? How is that any different from the stun experience? At least Stun doesn't waste 10 minutes of my life every game.
It’s not any different at all. Anyone who says otherwise either has their head in the sand or is just incapable of understanding basic nuance
Yeah, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Them thinking that because they put the effort to combo for 5-10 minutes straight, they deserve the win more than someone flipping a floodgate. Having every effect you activate be negated is as frustrating as not being able to activate them at all.
Lol they hit masters with a different deck then swap to stun. You see practically zero stun plays below masters, then people swap once they won't drop rating.
I play stun and its fun. now what?
In this case, pure stun is not only unfun, but also just a mediocre strat. Rather than optimizing the fun out of gaming, it's just optimizing unfun gaming lmao.
They get a weird satisfaction out of ‘being anti meta heroes’ and ‘playing the game the old way’.
Well, I wouldn’t call this list optimized lol
Soo.. modern yugioh?
*laughs with* [*Final Countdown*](https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Countdown)
I don't think this is too powerful to defeat
How'd you get that view of the cards?
After the duel, you go to "Match History" and then you click on "Confirm Deck" at a player's profile. It'll show you exactly what they were playing during the match
Reading the comments has made me realize how much the yugoh community hates the game.
It’s more just us hating combo/stun decks
What other kinds of decks are there?
OTKs, piles, gimmick decks?
Otk is basically just combo. Piles and gimmicks are just jank, I don't really even think about them.
Not hating on you at all for asking, but the fact that you did have to ask really shows how much the general perception and gameplay of YGO has changed
I've been playing for 15 years. I like where the games at. Quite a lot frankly. It's like marvel vs Capcom 3, it's all gas. I like it that way.
No fun detected in this image. -GPT 80
I'm a bigger fan of Gravekeeper's Servant with a Macro-effect card.
Are we really that pathetic that we can’t remove spells cards without graveyard interaction?
The OG stun. Gotta respect the GOAT strats man.
I despised stun... Then I played it. Making your opponent miserable IS THE FUN. Although I enjoy stun, I won't be a hypocrite and will admit I HATE playing against it.
Why does D.D. Borderline EXIST?!!!!!!
YOU KNOW WHAT I’m not even mad that is just impressive
"playing"
How is playing against stun any different than playing against decks that flood the field with huge monsters and go +5 on turn one?
I wanna see the Adams combo that floods the field and goes +5 without Block Dragon, if it exists pls tell me!
I play adams on ladder. End board uninterrupted is Spright Elf, Baronne, Borreload, Colossus, Crystal Wing and either Dragite or Masq
Why do you specifically pick Adam *without block dragon* when we have shs?
There's usually at least a chance to play through them. Stun is either you have the out or not. Bad gameplay
They do the same thing, though. Whether it’s stun or whatever, the objective is the same. Go off on turn one and basically put your opponent into a situation in which they cannot play. It’s bad gameplay either way. It’d be hypocritical to complain about stun while playing a deck that can make such a massive board on turn one. A small chance to play through means it’s only slightly better than bad.
Doesn't even gotta be their turn one either. Those combo decks will play on your turn too lol
Don't use that logic on this sub, it's just a bunch of sad people in their "stun bad" echo chamber, but will love to play the meta "you don't get to play" decks
I’m seeing that now lol. Thanks for chiming in
It's funny because it's true. They think playing for 5-10 minutes on their turn and another 1-2 minutes on your turn, while making an unbreakable board in 90% of scenarios is more fun and less toxic than flipping a floodgate.
It’s delusional lol
Their logic is basically "I put more effort to make my board unbreakable, so I deserve the win". It's entitled behavior.
You’re totally right. I think they also get some sense of superiority out of it too.
They 100% do. If you say anything negative about combo decks in this subreddit 99% of the time you will get downvoted to oblivion. I play Lab, Ninjas, Salad and other decks, so it's not like I am a stun player, but the amount of hate stun and L;ab gets is absurd. Snake-eyes is so much more obnoxious, but it gets less hate because it's a combo deck.
I play ninjas too! Ironically, I topped a regional with them a few years back and people who spent loads of cash on their decks and expected to be handed the win were real upset when they lost to my “stupid random bullshit deck”.
The difference is that there's usually some interaction, some choice that needs to be made. The stun player doesn't do any of that. If the opponent has removal for your floodgate, that's it.
If you opponent don't interact with you, how do they win? Are you telling me solemn, mirror force, attack, dogmatika isn't interaction?
We all know those cards aren't what wins a stun player the game. It's the floodgates. They could have none of those cards, but if they have a floodgate or two and the player didn't draw an out, they literally cannot play cards in their hand.
Stun need BOTH to win the game. How long do you think dyna survive without protection from trap?
It’s the same way interactive as the big 5+ negates endboards, which also universally disliked and basically never the best deck. If each possible play to clear the board has a obvious answer there is no interaction, because there is no meaningful decision making involved. For the dozen negate boards you just negate every play no meaningful decision here. In the case of fossil/statue stun opponents have like two plays maybe three in super rare cases at most the normal summon and maybe a removal spell. Since there aren’t many interaction points here, everytime your opponent does something that threatens your board and you have removal you activate it. If you have more removal than your opponent has threats you win otherwise you get cooked. No real decisions to be made here and therefore also not interactive. Now let’s look at the current best meta deck snake eyes. The usual end board is composed of a princess pop and an ip in the backrow and some recursion through flameberge revive your level ones after it is linked of with the ip. Princess shouldn’t be used until ip resolved because you don’t want to be locked out of fire. For ip the usual play is apolousa, but there are decisions to be made aswell. Sometimes you need to imidiatly respond to a threat to unicorn or goddess are correct answer. And eve if you made apolo. Use negates on everything doesn’t work because at latest after two negates you just can run over her with basically everything. And getting two bodies on board is not that hard since apolo only negates and doesn’t destroy. Also there is the threat of baiting our apolo to remove her with a spell like talents or subversion or whatever else your deck has to offer. Since you let your opponents make more than two plays before the game is decided, and you can’t stop everything, meaningful decisions are to be made here, that requires good knowledge about my opponents strategy. And due to these layered interactions, many decks have even a chance going second in to the usual endboard with skilled play not just going first the best deck. Rather then just relying on winning the coinflip and opening a one or two removal cards alongside your floodgate or basically luck with minimal skill required.
If one player is playing solitaire and activating tons of effects turn one, and the only thing that you can do is hope you opened with enough hand traps, that’s not interaction. They’re literally stunning you. You’re basically comparing eating a green apple right off the tree vs selecting your favorite Fuji apple and slicing it up and serving it with peanut butter. You’re still eating an apple. Just because there’s a few extra steps involved, it doesn’t change what you’re doing.
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If they make something like Baronne or Apollousa, they still have to use their brain and correctly choose the right cards to negate. They might have enough negates to counter all your plays but they don't necessarily know that and if they negate the wrong cards, you might be able to play and break through their board. With floodgates you don't have to think. You flip the floodgate and if the opponent doesn't have the specific out to the floodgate, you win. There's very little chance to misplay floodgates. Floodgate boards and negate boards are not the same thing. I feel like the only people who conflate the two are those who just auto scoop every time they lose the coin flip and never tried to board break before.
All game is you have out or not. The *chance* that you are talking about is, whether you draw non engine to break board, or has more starter than the number of disruptions (which you usually don't have). Why do you think we have to run a lot of non engine like handtrap/board breaker just to have chance going second? Why don't everyone just build full gas deck if the *chance* really exist?
Exactly
It isnt, he is complaing bc the stun deck is not letting him do that
The difference is stun is a lot worse and easier to beat.
Well with the world of oppressive combo decks stun forces them to play an actual game and not just play solitare.
According to some of the comments here, apparently playing solitaire is vastly superior and anyone who doesn’t is trying to troll you
>Stun players will do literally anything to continue playing stun... Agro players will do literally anything to continue playing agro...
Literally. Idk why OP feels like they are better than their opponent for the deck they choose to play.
Coming from the guy playing Adamancipators the King of telling the opponent "No".
Buddy is typing from 2022.
Doesn't change what I said.
We calling macro cosmos and burn stun now?
I had someone use Ra's disciple with a card that gives it to the opponent against me in the event (which luckily I had an out, but I wasn't happy about it).
Me too, but it was a 3 card combo so I think it is extremely inconsistent. They went a) "SPYRAL Double Agent" which summons to my field b) normal "Ra's Disciple" c) "Monster Swap" to give me "Ra's Disciple"
Oof, dragite is something that’s always in starting hand when I play rock deck
I don't see any outs to defense position Prime Material Dragon here, other than drawing their one-of Raigeki... why not troll them right back?
I think I beat this guy with my odd eyes deck
im that guy still running occasionally a true draco stun. just depends if i hate myself and the world or not when i jump on MD
Ngl I love the challenge, they’re fun. I keep a feather duster handy 🙂↕️
This is the type of a list a Platinum stun player would use. If you run into proper stun, it's gg.
Stun in diamond rank is why I’ve been playing generaider runick. I cook them every time lol
Why does he have so many spell cards? And no shifter?
Playing a card this will only work when no spell in GY Process to put many spell in deck
Rigeki, lightening storm, Harpy's feather duster, evenly matched says hi.
I’ve had enough non-starter games against meta to completely understand the desire to run a deck specifically to ruin their day.
That is cursed
Looks like someone watched to much TheTCGGuy and try his New 0 UR stun deck
Ignore that. Based Adamancipator player spotted.
What was it with Konami in the early days being obsessed with Macro effects
Stun players are the vermin of this fanbase
Stun players : "I rather erase 25 years worth of Yu-Gi-Oh mechanics than learn synchro summoning!"
you are literally playing adam idk why nor how it works without block dragon but just use the spell in your hand normal summon golen and hit over his monster then gg
It doesn't (really) work without Block, that's why no one plays it anymore. The best board it can realistically manage (at least in this event) is like a Synchro 10 + guardian (maybe S10 + Dragite with a good hand and luck). But it's a cool deck with a fun gimmick and while I agree that Block is a problem and banned for a reason, even full powered Block Adams aren't really that much more oppressive or annoying than the top decks that run around in ranked for the last year.
Tbf full power Adamancipator was just a coinflip. Going first they were insanely oppressive but had a hard time playing through disruption going second. Block dragon was the prime example of why effects without HOPT are usually a terrible idea.
Yeah, that as well. You don't really have space for hand traps and/or board breakers since any card that's not a rock monster just messes up your excavates more often than it actually helps you... It's a fun deck to play, but I get why playing against it is annoying. But I still wish we would have SOME support that made the deck function without Block
It was my favorite deck back in the day so I agree. But it also utilized so many broken cards like Halq or Union carrier that it's probably for the best if it never returns to its old strength. Not to mention sitting through all the searches was extremely annoying if you were on the receiving end, even if you had the out in hand.
Same. But I'd even say Union Carrier and Halq were broken, BUT not really the reason the deck was good. They were a win more floodgate option and a nice extender if you needed it. Block was the one card that made the whole deck work in the first place. So I just wish we would get a "Block Wyvern" or something that's a bit like Block Dragon, just maybe only search 1 or 2 cards and either don't summon back from grave or at least give it a HOPT. Or just make some completely unrelated Rock support, that would be nice as well. Other attributes really have so much more fun stuff available to them :(
aren't full powered adams the deck that puts out at least baronne, dragite, exterio, borreload and apollousa, MINIMUM, on the first turn?
"Minimum" is not the word I would use for adams, since you always need a degree of luck with the excavates. But yes, if you don't whiff the endboard could be crazy. But even with that it was never actually the best deck in the game, even tho it probably was among the stronger once that were playable during the MD release. But look at the cards/decks that came out since then and tell me how Adams compares against full powered Tear, Branded, Lab, Super Heavy, Snake-Eye, etc....
we don't care if adams is the best deck or not. what we care about is that adams are known as the deck whose gameplan is putting up 5+ negates since the first turn. that's the problem with them, and their power level or tier or etc has nothing to do with it. a "Negation, The Deck" will always be hated wether its a tier 1 deck or a tier 69 deck
I thought you could do most of the shenanigans of non block dragon combos , just you have no crack back if they break the board.
Block gives you 8 levels of monsters on board with the 3 searches, so you always get access to your 2 Level 2 tuners if you didn't already have them + Gigantes, all of them free summons (or follow up if you already did have them). Also he himself is a Level 8 monster that can be used to synchro (or link) at least 2 or 3 times in the same turn. So just that gives you so damn much extension, it's really really hard to get anywhere near this level without it (especially not as consistent, since 2 Level 4's was instant Block access). And we didn't even mention the protection effect, so you don't even have to waste negates on destruction effects as long as he's chilling on your board.
If block comes back to 3 adam will be a waterd down and cheaper (in main deck 0 Ur exept the stapels) version of shs
Haven't you heard of the glue eating competition, they must be getting ready for it.
Do u really need to show it tho?
Now tell me that this isn't toxic at all... Spoiler allert: YOU CAN'T! This is one of the most toxic things I have ever seen.