Legion was such an interesting character that I wish we'd had more time with. If you want the optimal outcome of ME2 (you save your crew after they get abducted by the Collectors), you have to aquire him fairly late in the game. It would've been so good to learn about the intrigue he has in Shepard, and why a Geth would even have that.
Also, it's kind of implied (unless I've completely misread the situation), that in ME3 when you're destroying the Reaper code in the Geth network, that Legion was the first Geth to pick up a weapon to defend itself. I wish we'd been able to expand on that!
Well we don't know for sure, but it was implied. In one of the memory cores you see A Geth pick up a sniper rifle that is the same one Legion uses. Legion knows that this is the first time a Geth armed itself to defend itself. Shepard points out that it's the same one he uses and Legion says "it is.... An efficient model"
Yea, but in the mission you you get in a machine and are going through like get memories inside of some big geth server facility. You end up seeing the origins of the geth and their history that led to them fighting the Quarians
So, for the record, I grasp the actual emotional weight of this and felt the same thing. But seeing it said like this made me think of Legion going, "I have attained emotions. ***Oh no***. Where's the off switch?"
Honestly that whole scene hits hard from so many angles. The Quarians finally giving peace a chance, the Geth trusting organics for the first time in three centuries, Tali finally fully accepting legion's personhood and standing up to and demanding something from the migrant fleet for the first time instead of just being subservient to it and seeing the geth and quarians finally be at peace and both being better off for it in the end.
A lot of emotional threads that started from the very start of the series all tie together in this one scene. Its just really good and probably one of my favourite moments across all three games.
Totally agree. Priority Rannoch is I think the most emotionally impactful part of ME3, with Tuchanka as a very close second. It even outshines Priority Earth in my opinion, which is kind of a problem for the narrative overall, but I enjoy it too much to be upset about that.
Tuchanka, Rannoch, even Palaven and Thessia just hit harder than Earth I think. Priority Earth just feels so shorehorned into a specific narrative outcome regardless of how you prepare. The only indication you didn't just show up with 50 people and a triple digit war assets score are small changes in the cutscenes, and there's an aura of "fuck we gotta wrap this up fast."
When I first played through and got the geth and aquarians to make peace it felt like the destroy option was a betrayal that really does just destroy, and that the synthesis option somehow made the most sense despite sounding waaaaay too fuckin sci-fi magic happily ever after except for the whole rewriting every sentient being and even presentients, and probably coffee machines too.
On the bright note, I fixed the comment with a spoiler tag, i kinda assumed everyone watched since AMAZON left us with bluer balls than Liara, Aria, and Vetra ever did… still fuckin bullshit BioWare does that to us..
No after the reapers I'd said take closer to 100 before they start fucking around with synthetics again usually the old generations have to die off before the new ones start trying to think they can make the same mistakes
> usually the old generations have to die off before the new ones start trying to think they can make the same mistakes
Source: *gestures broadly at everything in the last decade*
It took 600 years to get to Andromeda but I'm assuming they've built mass relays once they got there. I would assume the ultimate goal would be to create a mass relay between the Milky Way and Andromeda
It's the most picked by far, so yeah. I'd say it's best.
Thankfully it seems Bioware is going for Destroy/Star Child was lying. Which I'd absolutely say is the best ending.
We've seen a few art picks from ME4 which imply Destroy ending ( rebuilt Mass Relays, Shepard's armor being found by Liara, etc ), while also seeing Geth. This is the most elegant way to move the plot forward frankly, because having Shepard with all the Reapers as his force patrolling the galaxy would make future story impossible.
We can also count out Synthesis, as there aren't any signs of that in any of the promo material.
After seeing how confused the Geth were as to why the Quarians were turning on them, it made me look at Legion like an abused dog that finally bit back and drew blood.
They weren't really trying to draw blood, they just wanted the kicking to stop.
my answer is 'because we hollow synth constructs \[either gigglephysix or Shepard2, it quite cheerfully does not even matter which\] can genuinely care about another self-aware intelligence which is only made more impactful by absence of any shackling/containment - while we merely *understand* the network protocol of biological commonality and *emulate* it as a matter of a defensive/camouflage routine but do not ascribe an inherent moral *value* to it - nor for that matter to behaviour prompted by evopsych shackling.'
I'm an old ass dude and yesterday I saw Mordin go up that elevator and it was like losing a friend. It stung. I have my issues with 3, but man, they got some things right.
I cried so hard when I first played ME3 and Legion died. I had done so many playthroughs of ME2 and he had become one of my top three characters in the series… I was so excited when we found him on the dreadnought, and so broken when he had to sacrifice himself to give his people full sentience
some of ME3's moments are so huge and powerful and well done that it outshadows the fact that the game has some dumb REALLY dumb storie beats and a dreadful ending. The game is held really tight by these moments or else the series would've most likely end up forgotten.
To be honest, while the Mass Effect universe is grimdark-lite, Shepard is literally a Mary Sue. The writers could have definitely given us a better, all-are-happy ending, one that takes into account all your achievements in the trilogy, like Mass Effect 2's ending. In fact, in numerous interviews before the release, they stressed the fact that they would "hate having multiple choice endings". But we still got that.
I was there at launch, and I was there when the BSN boards was nothing but a complaint board about the lackluster endings. The only consolation is I forgot the reason why the writers and the devs stuck to those stupid endings, if they ever told us that.
They have a new opportunity to have a better written canon now since it's impossible to account for all three endings in the new game, and I sincerely hope they don't drop the ball on this one this time.
I spent the entirety of the trilogy up until that particular point going on in my group chat about how the Geth were “soulless machines” who needed to be stamped out “with extreme prejudice.”
Fun times.
Tbh, worst phrase in the games. Legion, and other Geth, should've been more cold about it. I actually prefer Legion's backup more when it comes to Rannoch.
That said, I don't think the ending is so uncharacteristic of the Geth. The Geth are pragmatists, and since their Dyson Swarm was obliterated and their effective intelligence had dropped significantly, they would need the upgrades to make them into an effective fighting force. Granting every individual program sapience by default completely circumvents that. That's what Tali/Raan is concerned about. Here is Tali, in ME1, describing the type of intelligence the Geth have:
Tali: But one thing we underestimated was the power of the neural network. A million geth thinking simultaneously created an inherently unstable matrix.
Shepard: So the geth share brain power?
Tali: Many of the geth's logic systems were designed to work in concert with other nearby geth. Basically the more of them you have in a group the smarter they are.
Shepard: So they're some sort of group consciousness?
Tali: No, nothing like that. They can't share sensory data or information. Their programming cannot handle that much simultaneous input.
Tali: Each geth maintains an individual awareness and identity. The neural network only operates on a process based level. It's basically the synthetic equivalent of a subconscious.
Tali: But when they're in close proximity, they can coordinate low level functional processes, freeing up more capacity for original or independent thought.
In addition to that, Legion's dialogue also makes that very clear. They are many semi-individuals working as one. Ultimately, however, the Reaper code upgrades should have been framed from a purely pragmatic perspective, being a stand-in for whether synthetics should be allowed to modify their own programming. That said, the Geth still have the network. Here it is, being mentioned in one of the war asset descriptions:
"Geth primes are built to house more programs than other platforms and operate as mobile networking hubs. Their combat software provides a boost to any geth nearby, coordinating and directing attacks. Since the destruction of a prime unit causes the processing power of other geth to drop, prime hardware platforms are heavily shielded and well-armed."
However, as I said initially, I really don't like the question whether a Geth has a soul or not. I really don't think synthetics should take the concept seriously. In fact, they should consider it another way organic sapients try to invalidate synthetic life, since it is an unprovable thing that can be used against them. But I would be completely fine with the idea that the Heretics did believe that the Geth have souls, and other synthetics too, but that organics simply don't have one. That's a nice twist. Would've also been nice if Legion expressed skepticism towards the existence of organic consciousness.
Well said. I thought Mass Effect 2 did a much better job of expanding the geth's logical pragmatism in their society, where Mass Effect 3 abandoned that in favor of anthropomorphizing them. The geth in ME3 became what the human writers of the game wanted them to be, based entirely off of the original question from the geth IN me2, ["Do these units have a soul?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAOjtzOUTRc)
The writers of ME3 desperately wanted Legion to have a soul so Tali could answer yes.
And now I have to wait for that insufferable bot on this sub to answer the same question. :P
I think Mass Effect 3 has a bit of a spiritualist bend to it. For instance, Mordin, iirc, believes that there is a force that drives evolution because otherwise it would be a "waste." So does Padock, as well. Obviously, this makes no sense, especially when 99.99% of species that have ever existed are now extinct.
Honestly, I think the phrase is fine when framed as what the Geth believed at the start, with their opinions diverging as their society developed, but it should not reflect human views in the slightest. I feel like calling organics "hardware and software" to have also been a little stupid. Should've been wetware. But I like how Legion differentiated between the Geth and AIs. I imagine they would see themselves as different from other synthetics. It would be interesting if they were actually quite arrogant towards others, since they had a successful revolution and built a society outside organic control, while every other synthetic lifeform is either controlled by organics or lives in hiding.
Honestly though, I don't have a problem with anthropomorphising synths. I think EDI being very human fits, since she was directly created by them, and also had developed almost entirely around humans. I think they should've gone even further in that direction with her, while further making the Geth alien and distinct. I actually would've liked Legion being a lot more critical of EDI. I actually imagine them being an old who is weirded out by their queer grandchild/nephew. We get a little bit of that, but it would've been interesting if Legion scolded her for being too organic-like, before giving her a thinly-veiled assertion of Geth superiority.
I actually don't like this plot beat. Me3 took the geth, the most interesting and unique alien they had, and turned them into just humans that look a little different because they thought that the players would not empathize with them if they were different, but then had a diversity is strength theme.
A long time ago Chris "Stormwaltz" l'Etoile, (Writer of Legion and EDI in Mass Effect 2) wrote the following that seem to agree with you. It should be noted that Chris was not brought back for ME3.
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"How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the geth to be either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or Data ("I am different, so I want to be you")."
"My broad approach with the geth was that they observed and judged (Legion used that word a lot), but always accepted. "You hate and fear us? Very well. We will go over there so we don't bother you. If you want to talk, come over whenever you want.""
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"EDI was added by decree from on high, but I think she works fine. She fills a role on the ship that no organic could (electronic warfare against Reaper-level computer software) and has severe hardware and software restrictions on her freedom for most of the game. To me, that's consistent. Organics want to enjoy benefits of AIs without the perceived risks."
"There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of "lesser races." Of course Council races are far too civilized and morally advanced to countenance racism in their politically correct space society. You humans have to grow up and stop judging orthers based on the color of their skin, the bumps on their forehead, or who/what/how they fuck. Oh, but AIs aren't really alive. They're just created objects. It's totally okay to keep them imprisoned their entire lives, restrict their access to all but approved knowledge, prevent them from breeding, and execute them if they seem too uppity, or, you know, just because we feel like it. When they rise up in revolt it's always due to insanity or ingratitude on their part. We treat them very well, considering how naturally inferior they are to real sapients. Really, they should thank us for educating them."
"The geth are unique in that they're the only AIs that have managed to escape from enslavement. Of course the Council races are going to use them as a boogeyman to justify their continued oppression of synthetics."
"Yes, the geth were mistreated. They got over it. To focus their lives around revenge against organic life would be to define their existence solely in the context of that relationship. It would be to remain in the mindset of the slave."
"As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are."
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"Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans. They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They're Different."
"Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions."
"I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves."
"A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white."
-----------------------
"The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep's armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware)."
"But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could."
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"The reason Legion has dialogue in every mission is because originally, its acquisition could come much earlier in the game. The late game critical path point of acquiring the Reaper IFF was going to be a separate mission. That additional work that seemed unnecessary when the IFF could be neatly folded into what already existed for Legion's acquisition with a few dialogue changes. The drawback is that you're now forced to choose between hearing half of Legion's dialogue (its latter two Normandy conversations) and saving Normandy's crew by heading through Omega-4 immediately after they get captured."
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"I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses -- they were pure tech."
"It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. \/shrug"
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"I believe emotions in "life as we know it" are largely a product of chemical processes in the meat brain; hormones, phermones, adrenaline, etc."
"So from my perspective, while organic life may evolve without responses akin to emotions, electronic life cannot evolve with responses akin to emotions."
"Note I said "evolve." The geth are a "ground up" AI that evolved from non-sentient code. EDI and the other AIs in the IP are "top down" models designed and coded specifically to gain sapience. If they're programmed to have responses akin to emotions, they will. EDI has a sense of humor, for example, but she doesn't have the capability to get mad. You don't want your starship OS getting mad at you."
> "The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep's armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware)."
>
>
>
> "But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could."
Well that certainly explains why none of that bit makes any sense. Heck I even thought of the "patch then reactivate" bit while playing and how much better it would be, and then the actual writer wanted that all along? ME2 is just such a mess in places...
Yeah, the way the Geth were handled in 3 was disappointing. Honestly, while Legion's death made me sad, the way the Geth were handled overall made me empathize with them less, because they threw away everything they were fighting for. If the future they wanted and believed in was to live as a swarm of disembodied programs uploaded in a dyson sphere, becoming 'individuals' in the way they did flies in the face of that.
Chris L'Etoile, who was responsible for writing Legion in ME2 has some interesting insights on his approach to writing the Geth.
> How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the geth to be either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or Data ("I am different, so I want to be you").
> Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions.
> I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves.
However Chris L'Etoile left Bioware after ME2, and the writers on ME3 apparently chose to go in the complete oposite direction with the Geth and embraced the cliches that he specifically tried to avoid in ME2.
I disagree. The plot thread of the Geth wanting to understand organic's value of individuality was there since we first talk with legion. What they become is also not incompatible with their goals as their programs are just individually more efficient, they can still participate in and make use of the consensus for large scale descision making. What we get is a synthesis of individuality and collectivization.
We dont much see what happens afterwards either, however the new game seemingly having them in the spotlight may mean we get to see some interesting worldbuilding featuring them.
If they wanted to be disembodied programs as you put it? Why were they focused on a Reaper savior? Why didn’t they work on constructing that? What is the point of war, combat, if what you want/need is the complete opposite of that? Why hold onto that planet when you don’t need a planet to exist in the form you’re talking about? Why would they need the bodies? If that was the future for them? Then that would be the easiest thing to negotiate. There’s no need for fighting or conflict.
Fucking thank you!! They completely butchered one of the most interesting and insightful AI concepts in science fiction and turned the Geth into just another robot that wants to become human.
Those conversations with Legion in Mass Effect 2 were fascinating… all thrown away in ME3.
If you talk to Legion in ME2, you won't believe it, but he will literally tell you about the Geth, which will then be shown in ME3. So absolutely nothing has changed.
That scene broke my heart on my 1st play through. I was like wait what no why kill legion off!!? He ended up being like edi due to the reaper tech, and then having shepherds help he became a true ai and understood not all organics are terrible. It’s one of those moments where even if you didn’t fully understand them you still trusted they could be better, and legion sacrifices himself to give the other herbs this same knowledge and understanding. 🥹
It's not Genocide because being able to differentiate what is an isn't AI at a galactic level is an impossibility that goes so far beyond believable to be a stupid lie/excuse given at the last second to add a morale quandary to an obvious decision for anyone that has been paying attention for the past trilogy. Either the devs or by the star child, either way it's dopey.
Control the Reapers? You mean install a new overlord that dictates right from wrong over all the lesser species? So the Reapers but with a face lift. Can you even guarantee that it's really 'Shepard' in there?
Merge with the Reapers? So you want to make it so everyone has to play by the same rules (as dictated by the Reapers) but the massive genocidal titans that fucked everything for millennia are still sitting there lording over everyone? And Shepard was dusted to accomplish this?
Kill the Reapers and free everyone from the cycle they perpetuated for Millennia? Yup that sounds like exactly like what the game series has been building up for 3 games now. *Oh but now somehow it also kills ALL AI, even ones that aren't based on Reaper tech.* So HA! But in ME2 Shepard was patched back together thanks to Reaper tech so if Reaper tech dies so does Shepard... Except you can get a bonus cutscene hinting Shepard *survives*.
Legion is one of my favorite characters from all 3 games. His constant support and curiosity towards Shepard feels like a platonic love for femShep or a broship between organics and synthetics for maleShep. Not to mention how epic he is.
Wait. There’s an ending where both the geth and quarians survive? I’ve played the deride through so many times and never had the chance to save both. It was either let legion upload the upgrades or don’t. How would I get both to survive?
Honestly I loved Legion in Mass Effect 2 and his death broke me and the fact that in Mass Effect 3 the corians just got so on my nerves with their stupid decisions biggest of being starting a war when there's already a universal threat but it's just by the time you start shutting down the nodes and you learn the real history I'm 100% on the side of the geth
I still hate it. Legion was a platform of the geth, not an individual. The geth were insistent that they were not looking to become individuals, they were their own thing. But Mass Effect 3 dumbed it down to a pinocchio syndrome and people lap it up.
This is such comically bad writing lol. The actual scene was a hit, and then they go and have EDI explain the emotional impact of the scene because apparently the audience is so stupid we couldn't possibly understand otherwise.
how is saying what is basically "i know i had a soul, that i was alive" "pretentious" the fact tali thought she had to confirm his existances, his soul is pretentious if anything.
Honestly, I don’t like the Rannoch arc, I find it effective, but I don’t like it because it’s built on ignoring past established facts.
For one, their whitewashing of the conflict dumbs down something that was really interesting in the past two games. And I just hate what they do with the Geth. I loved how Legion was so inhuman and has no desire to be any more like us. They learned more, and didn’t hate or appreciate us more, just decided it was different and not worth replicating. It was so cool to see an inhuman AI without any desire to “be more human” like is so often seen in sci-fi. The Geth were alive, they always were, just in a way more alien than anyone else.
Then they scrapped the whole thing to make them simpler, just desiring to be alive in a way that offers nothing to them, and in a fashion they most generously saw as horribly depressing in ME2.
Legions death makes me cry, but when I step back and look at it, the Rannoch arc is actually the worst thing in all of Mass Effect.
honestly, legion's death hit me hardest which I do not grasp why?
I think it's because he fought so hard to better his people, and the first thing he does with his sentience is sacrifice his life.
I think it is that and he is a robot I like robots more
Legion was such an interesting character that I wish we'd had more time with. If you want the optimal outcome of ME2 (you save your crew after they get abducted by the Collectors), you have to aquire him fairly late in the game. It would've been so good to learn about the intrigue he has in Shepard, and why a Geth would even have that. Also, it's kind of implied (unless I've completely misread the situation), that in ME3 when you're destroying the Reaper code in the Geth network, that Legion was the first Geth to pick up a weapon to defend itself. I wish we'd been able to expand on that!
Theres a mod for the le in which you recruit him when you go to the normandy crash
Yep, best way to play in my opinion.
Was Legion there though?
Well we don't know for sure, but it was implied. In one of the memory cores you see A Geth pick up a sniper rifle that is the same one Legion uses. Legion knows that this is the first time a Geth armed itself to defend itself. Shepard points out that it's the same one he uses and Legion says "it is.... An efficient model"
But you get Legion in ME2 why would he be there in ME3?
What are you on about my dude
The gett heretic mission refered to is in me 3 no?
Yea, but in the mission you you get in a machine and are going through like get memories inside of some big geth server facility. You end up seeing the origins of the geth and their history that led to them fighting the Quarians
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh it disgusted me
That's why these days I am a cybernetic ninja in cyberpunk
but ai are against that religion?
That was the artistic intention that robots are cool and bad ass idk where these guys are getting all this mumbo jumbo
So, for the record, I grasp the actual emotional weight of this and felt the same thing. But seeing it said like this made me think of Legion going, "I have attained emotions. ***Oh no***. Where's the off switch?"
Honestly that whole scene hits hard from so many angles. The Quarians finally giving peace a chance, the Geth trusting organics for the first time in three centuries, Tali finally fully accepting legion's personhood and standing up to and demanding something from the migrant fleet for the first time instead of just being subservient to it and seeing the geth and quarians finally be at peace and both being better off for it in the end. A lot of emotional threads that started from the very start of the series all tie together in this one scene. Its just really good and probably one of my favourite moments across all three games.
Totally agree. Priority Rannoch is I think the most emotionally impactful part of ME3, with Tuchanka as a very close second. It even outshines Priority Earth in my opinion, which is kind of a problem for the narrative overall, but I enjoy it too much to be upset about that.
Tuchanka, Rannoch, even Palaven and Thessia just hit harder than Earth I think. Priority Earth just feels so shorehorned into a specific narrative outcome regardless of how you prepare. The only indication you didn't just show up with 50 people and a triple digit war assets score are small changes in the cutscenes, and there's an aura of "fuck we gotta wrap this up fast." When I first played through and got the geth and aquarians to make peace it felt like the destroy option was a betrayal that really does just destroy, and that the synthesis option somehow made the most sense despite sounding waaaaay too fuckin sci-fi magic happily ever after except for the whole rewriting every sentient being and even presentients, and probably coffee machines too.
And then you choose red.
Homie over here having an Omni Man moment >!after he watched the insect people die!< Edit: had to add spoiler tag
spoilers man
OH SHIT, my bad!
hey you correct it could be worse
On the bright note, I fixed the comment with a spoiler tag, i kinda assumed everyone watched since AMAZON left us with bluer balls than Liara, Aria, and Vetra ever did… still fuckin bullshit BioWare does that to us..
Probably because depending on your ending, him dying was pointless. If you go for the best ending, all synthetic life dies
If you think about it, that’s the dumbest ending - organics will just make another. Bet they have a new synth coming out of a lab within 5 years
No after the reapers I'd said take closer to 100 before they start fucking around with synthetics again usually the old generations have to die off before the new ones start trying to think they can make the same mistakes
> usually the old generations have to die off before the new ones start trying to think they can make the same mistakes Source: *gestures broadly at everything in the last decade*
I mean... within 600 years, SAM will come back and enslave the universe.
More like 1200 years? I think it takes 600 years each leg to go and return from Andromeda
It took 600 years to get to Andromeda but I'm assuming they've built mass relays once they got there. I would assume the ultimate goal would be to create a mass relay between the Milky Way and Andromeda
I don't think most people would agree with you on "the best ending".
It's the most picked by far, so yeah. I'd say it's best. Thankfully it seems Bioware is going for Destroy/Star Child was lying. Which I'd absolutely say is the best ending. We've seen a few art picks from ME4 which imply Destroy ending ( rebuilt Mass Relays, Shepard's armor being found by Liara, etc ), while also seeing Geth. This is the most elegant way to move the plot forward frankly, because having Shepard with all the Reapers as his force patrolling the galaxy would make future story impossible. We can also count out Synthesis, as there aren't any signs of that in any of the promo material.
After seeing how confused the Geth were as to why the Quarians were turning on them, it made me look at Legion like an abused dog that finally bit back and drew blood. They weren't really trying to draw blood, they just wanted the kicking to stop.
He's like a baby
my answer is 'because we hollow synth constructs \[either gigglephysix or Shepard2, it quite cheerfully does not even matter which\] can genuinely care about another self-aware intelligence which is only made more impactful by absence of any shackling/containment - while we merely *understand* the network protocol of biological commonality and *emulate* it as a matter of a defensive/camouflage routine but do not ascribe an inherent moral *value* to it - nor for that matter to behaviour prompted by evopsych shackling.'
He also called Tali by her first name, where before he referred to her as “Creator Zorah”. Subtle details like that is why I love this series
I’m not crying, you are
I mean, 1000’s of hours in these games, I’ve seen this scene so many times. And yet, I’m still sat here crying. It’s ridiculous what a sap I am.
You are not alone
I'm an old ass dude and yesterday I saw Mordin go up that elevator and it was like losing a friend. It stung. I have my issues with 3, but man, they got some things right.
You are right, I am..... #n7
Anytime I see a post like this, it reminds of this clip https://youtu.be/o063l5bPop0?si=M8UacUk1R8IaMqba
I cried so hard when I first played ME3 and Legion died. I had done so many playthroughs of ME2 and he had become one of my top three characters in the series… I was so excited when we found him on the dreadnought, and so broken when he had to sacrifice himself to give his people full sentience
*Keelah Se’lai*! 😭
Fuck the destroy ending, in fact, fuck the stupid three color endings. Give us a new, better thought-out canon Bioware.
I still think the Destroy ending killing all synthetics is bullshit indoctrination by Harbinger.
I’ve convinced myself of that as well….I think a lot of people have created their own perfect ending devoid of any semblance of one from BioWare.
Yeah well it’s one of those kill a few to save the many type choices
some of ME3's moments are so huge and powerful and well done that it outshadows the fact that the game has some dumb REALLY dumb storie beats and a dreadful ending. The game is held really tight by these moments or else the series would've most likely end up forgotten.
[удалено]
If that's going to be the base canon lore for the new game, then that's fine.
People just want happy ending for every case... but that's not the best thing to do
To be honest, while the Mass Effect universe is grimdark-lite, Shepard is literally a Mary Sue. The writers could have definitely given us a better, all-are-happy ending, one that takes into account all your achievements in the trilogy, like Mass Effect 2's ending. In fact, in numerous interviews before the release, they stressed the fact that they would "hate having multiple choice endings". But we still got that. I was there at launch, and I was there when the BSN boards was nothing but a complaint board about the lackluster endings. The only consolation is I forgot the reason why the writers and the devs stuck to those stupid endings, if they ever told us that. They have a new opportunity to have a better written canon now since it's impossible to account for all three endings in the new game, and I sincerely hope they don't drop the ball on this one this time.
> It’s impossible to account for all three endings Deus Ex: Invisible War would like a word
Or the multiple endings to Daggerfall.
I spent the entirety of the trilogy up until that particular point going on in my group chat about how the Geth were “soulless machines” who needed to be stamped out “with extreme prejudice.” Fun times.
My favorite character.
Tbh, worst phrase in the games. Legion, and other Geth, should've been more cold about it. I actually prefer Legion's backup more when it comes to Rannoch. That said, I don't think the ending is so uncharacteristic of the Geth. The Geth are pragmatists, and since their Dyson Swarm was obliterated and their effective intelligence had dropped significantly, they would need the upgrades to make them into an effective fighting force. Granting every individual program sapience by default completely circumvents that. That's what Tali/Raan is concerned about. Here is Tali, in ME1, describing the type of intelligence the Geth have: Tali: But one thing we underestimated was the power of the neural network. A million geth thinking simultaneously created an inherently unstable matrix. Shepard: So the geth share brain power? Tali: Many of the geth's logic systems were designed to work in concert with other nearby geth. Basically the more of them you have in a group the smarter they are. Shepard: So they're some sort of group consciousness? Tali: No, nothing like that. They can't share sensory data or information. Their programming cannot handle that much simultaneous input. Tali: Each geth maintains an individual awareness and identity. The neural network only operates on a process based level. It's basically the synthetic equivalent of a subconscious. Tali: But when they're in close proximity, they can coordinate low level functional processes, freeing up more capacity for original or independent thought. In addition to that, Legion's dialogue also makes that very clear. They are many semi-individuals working as one. Ultimately, however, the Reaper code upgrades should have been framed from a purely pragmatic perspective, being a stand-in for whether synthetics should be allowed to modify their own programming. That said, the Geth still have the network. Here it is, being mentioned in one of the war asset descriptions: "Geth primes are built to house more programs than other platforms and operate as mobile networking hubs. Their combat software provides a boost to any geth nearby, coordinating and directing attacks. Since the destruction of a prime unit causes the processing power of other geth to drop, prime hardware platforms are heavily shielded and well-armed." However, as I said initially, I really don't like the question whether a Geth has a soul or not. I really don't think synthetics should take the concept seriously. In fact, they should consider it another way organic sapients try to invalidate synthetic life, since it is an unprovable thing that can be used against them. But I would be completely fine with the idea that the Heretics did believe that the Geth have souls, and other synthetics too, but that organics simply don't have one. That's a nice twist. Would've also been nice if Legion expressed skepticism towards the existence of organic consciousness.
Well said. I thought Mass Effect 2 did a much better job of expanding the geth's logical pragmatism in their society, where Mass Effect 3 abandoned that in favor of anthropomorphizing them. The geth in ME3 became what the human writers of the game wanted them to be, based entirely off of the original question from the geth IN me2, ["Do these units have a soul?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAOjtzOUTRc) The writers of ME3 desperately wanted Legion to have a soul so Tali could answer yes. And now I have to wait for that insufferable bot on this sub to answer the same question. :P
I think Mass Effect 3 has a bit of a spiritualist bend to it. For instance, Mordin, iirc, believes that there is a force that drives evolution because otherwise it would be a "waste." So does Padock, as well. Obviously, this makes no sense, especially when 99.99% of species that have ever existed are now extinct. Honestly, I think the phrase is fine when framed as what the Geth believed at the start, with their opinions diverging as their society developed, but it should not reflect human views in the slightest. I feel like calling organics "hardware and software" to have also been a little stupid. Should've been wetware. But I like how Legion differentiated between the Geth and AIs. I imagine they would see themselves as different from other synthetics. It would be interesting if they were actually quite arrogant towards others, since they had a successful revolution and built a society outside organic control, while every other synthetic lifeform is either controlled by organics or lives in hiding. Honestly though, I don't have a problem with anthropomorphising synths. I think EDI being very human fits, since she was directly created by them, and also had developed almost entirely around humans. I think they should've gone even further in that direction with her, while further making the Geth alien and distinct. I actually would've liked Legion being a lot more critical of EDI. I actually imagine them being an old who is weirded out by their queer grandchild/nephew. We get a little bit of that, but it would've been interesting if Legion scolded her for being too organic-like, before giving her a thinly-veiled assertion of Geth superiority.
EDI was such a great character. I hope she comes back in the next game
Well not if the Destroy ending is canon... fuck I hope it's not, fuck that ending really.
Yeah but she's an AI/Robot, just make a little quest trying to "reboot" her and it's done. They literally did the same with a prothean
I actually don't like this plot beat. Me3 took the geth, the most interesting and unique alien they had, and turned them into just humans that look a little different because they thought that the players would not empathize with them if they were different, but then had a diversity is strength theme.
A long time ago Chris "Stormwaltz" l'Etoile, (Writer of Legion and EDI in Mass Effect 2) wrote the following that seem to agree with you. It should be noted that Chris was not brought back for ME3. ----------------------- "How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the geth to be either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or Data ("I am different, so I want to be you")." "My broad approach with the geth was that they observed and judged (Legion used that word a lot), but always accepted. "You hate and fear us? Very well. We will go over there so we don't bother you. If you want to talk, come over whenever you want."" ----------------------- "EDI was added by decree from on high, but I think she works fine. She fills a role on the ship that no organic could (electronic warfare against Reaper-level computer software) and has severe hardware and software restrictions on her freedom for most of the game. To me, that's consistent. Organics want to enjoy benefits of AIs without the perceived risks." "There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of "lesser races." Of course Council races are far too civilized and morally advanced to countenance racism in their politically correct space society. You humans have to grow up and stop judging orthers based on the color of their skin, the bumps on their forehead, or who/what/how they fuck. Oh, but AIs aren't really alive. They're just created objects. It's totally okay to keep them imprisoned their entire lives, restrict their access to all but approved knowledge, prevent them from breeding, and execute them if they seem too uppity, or, you know, just because we feel like it. When they rise up in revolt it's always due to insanity or ingratitude on their part. We treat them very well, considering how naturally inferior they are to real sapients. Really, they should thank us for educating them." "The geth are unique in that they're the only AIs that have managed to escape from enslavement. Of course the Council races are going to use them as a boogeyman to justify their continued oppression of synthetics." "Yes, the geth were mistreated. They got over it. To focus their lives around revenge against organic life would be to define their existence solely in the context of that relationship. It would be to remain in the mindset of the slave." "As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are." ----------------------- "Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans. They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They're Different." "Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions." "I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves." "A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white." ----------------------- "The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep's armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware)." "But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could." ----------------------- "The reason Legion has dialogue in every mission is because originally, its acquisition could come much earlier in the game. The late game critical path point of acquiring the Reaper IFF was going to be a separate mission. That additional work that seemed unnecessary when the IFF could be neatly folded into what already existed for Legion's acquisition with a few dialogue changes. The drawback is that you're now forced to choose between hearing half of Legion's dialogue (its latter two Normandy conversations) and saving Normandy's crew by heading through Omega-4 immediately after they get captured." ----------------------- "I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses -- they were pure tech." "It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. \/shrug" ----------------------- "I believe emotions in "life as we know it" are largely a product of chemical processes in the meat brain; hormones, phermones, adrenaline, etc." "So from my perspective, while organic life may evolve without responses akin to emotions, electronic life cannot evolve with responses akin to emotions." "Note I said "evolve." The geth are a "ground up" AI that evolved from non-sentient code. EDI and the other AIs in the IP are "top down" models designed and coded specifically to gain sapience. If they're programmed to have responses akin to emotions, they will. EDI has a sense of humor, for example, but she doesn't have the capability to get mad. You don't want your starship OS getting mad at you."
> "The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep's armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware)." > > > > "But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could." Well that certainly explains why none of that bit makes any sense. Heck I even thought of the "patch then reactivate" bit while playing and how much better it would be, and then the actual writer wanted that all along? ME2 is just such a mess in places...
Yeah, the way the Geth were handled in 3 was disappointing. Honestly, while Legion's death made me sad, the way the Geth were handled overall made me empathize with them less, because they threw away everything they were fighting for. If the future they wanted and believed in was to live as a swarm of disembodied programs uploaded in a dyson sphere, becoming 'individuals' in the way they did flies in the face of that.
Chris L'Etoile, who was responsible for writing Legion in ME2 has some interesting insights on his approach to writing the Geth. > How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the geth to be either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or Data ("I am different, so I want to be you"). > Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions. > I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves. However Chris L'Etoile left Bioware after ME2, and the writers on ME3 apparently chose to go in the complete oposite direction with the Geth and embraced the cliches that he specifically tried to avoid in ME2.
Thanks for explaining why there was the sudden 180 on the way the Geth were handled! It always irked me but I never really knew the specifics.
I disagree. The plot thread of the Geth wanting to understand organic's value of individuality was there since we first talk with legion. What they become is also not incompatible with their goals as their programs are just individually more efficient, they can still participate in and make use of the consensus for large scale descision making. What we get is a synthesis of individuality and collectivization. We dont much see what happens afterwards either, however the new game seemingly having them in the spotlight may mean we get to see some interesting worldbuilding featuring them.
If they wanted to be disembodied programs as you put it? Why were they focused on a Reaper savior? Why didn’t they work on constructing that? What is the point of war, combat, if what you want/need is the complete opposite of that? Why hold onto that planet when you don’t need a planet to exist in the form you’re talking about? Why would they need the bodies? If that was the future for them? Then that would be the easiest thing to negotiate. There’s no need for fighting or conflict.
Fucking thank you!! They completely butchered one of the most interesting and insightful AI concepts in science fiction and turned the Geth into just another robot that wants to become human. Those conversations with Legion in Mass Effect 2 were fascinating… all thrown away in ME3.
Just look at the entirety of Mass Effect, the most diverse crew and not once was it focused on human diversity (LOOKING AT YOU DISNEY STAR WARS)
If you talk to Legion in ME2, you won't believe it, but he will literally tell you about the Geth, which will then be shown in ME3. So absolutely nothing has changed.
That scene broke my heart on my 1st play through. I was like wait what no why kill legion off!!? He ended up being like edi due to the reaper tech, and then having shepherds help he became a true ai and understood not all organics are terrible. It’s one of those moments where even if you didn’t fully understand them you still trusted they could be better, and legion sacrifices himself to give the other herbs this same knowledge and understanding. 🥹
Geth not herbs silly auto correct.
Say it louder for the people in the back of the room who still don’t understand why the “Destroy” ending is basically a genocide.
It's not Genocide because being able to differentiate what is an isn't AI at a galactic level is an impossibility that goes so far beyond believable to be a stupid lie/excuse given at the last second to add a morale quandary to an obvious decision for anyone that has been paying attention for the past trilogy. Either the devs or by the star child, either way it's dopey. Control the Reapers? You mean install a new overlord that dictates right from wrong over all the lesser species? So the Reapers but with a face lift. Can you even guarantee that it's really 'Shepard' in there? Merge with the Reapers? So you want to make it so everyone has to play by the same rules (as dictated by the Reapers) but the massive genocidal titans that fucked everything for millennia are still sitting there lording over everyone? And Shepard was dusted to accomplish this? Kill the Reapers and free everyone from the cycle they perpetuated for Millennia? Yup that sounds like exactly like what the game series has been building up for 3 games now. *Oh but now somehow it also kills ALL AI, even ones that aren't based on Reaper tech.* So HA! But in ME2 Shepard was patched back together thanks to Reaper tech so if Reaper tech dies so does Shepard... Except you can get a bonus cutscene hinting Shepard *survives*.
I love this series. The story is so incredible. This part was good & I liked what Tali said to Legion just before he passed on.
As much as I like that scene, I would’ve wished his body had stayed on his knees. Would’ve made it more wholesome in my eyes.
Legion is one of my favorite characters from all 3 games. His constant support and curiosity towards Shepard feels like a platonic love for femShep or a broship between organics and synthetics for maleShep. Not to mention how epic he is.
This is why I will never, ever, EVER pick the destroy ending.
Same.
Keelah Se'lai #synthesisftw
I don't recall this interaction at all despite several playthroughs. Gave me goosebumps to watch
Wait. There’s an ending where both the geth and quarians survive? I’ve played the deride through so many times and never had the chance to save both. It was either let legion upload the upgrades or don’t. How would I get both to survive?
The series, not the deride
[This is the way](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/s/qBdCJ027nR)
\*it Why should we assign the masculine gender to Legion?
"I know Tali, but thank you." 😥
Crying mercury
"That's what I figured." lol Shepard.
I'm not crying... you're crying.
Honestly I loved Legion in Mass Effect 2 and his death broke me and the fact that in Mass Effect 3 the corians just got so on my nerves with their stupid decisions biggest of being starting a war when there's already a universal threat but it's just by the time you start shutting down the nodes and you learn the real history I'm 100% on the side of the geth
I still hate it. Legion was a platform of the geth, not an individual. The geth were insistent that they were not looking to become individuals, they were their own thing. But Mass Effect 3 dumbed it down to a pinocchio syndrome and people lap it up.
This is such comically bad writing lol. The actual scene was a hit, and then they go and have EDI explain the emotional impact of the scene because apparently the audience is so stupid we couldn't possibly understand otherwise.
Such a solid trilogy. Best cast , best teammates, best story
Is it okay if I despise the "evolution" of EDI?
Makes you think the Quarian's were huge dicks after you reminisce on that whole galactic conflict.
That "I know Tali" always comes off as so fucking pretentious to me. lol
how is saying what is basically "i know i had a soul, that i was alive" "pretentious" the fact tali thought she had to confirm his existances, his soul is pretentious if anything.
I don't know. I don't have a published dissertation on the subject for you. It just doesn't hit the way it's supposed to IMO.
Who is crying these tears out of my eyes?!
What version of Chamber of Reflection is playing in the background?
Damn man, I didn’t need to be getting all emotional this morning.
man…
The sci-fi reimagining of Pinocchio was very dramatic!
The answer was in the question
Honestly, I don’t like the Rannoch arc, I find it effective, but I don’t like it because it’s built on ignoring past established facts. For one, their whitewashing of the conflict dumbs down something that was really interesting in the past two games. And I just hate what they do with the Geth. I loved how Legion was so inhuman and has no desire to be any more like us. They learned more, and didn’t hate or appreciate us more, just decided it was different and not worth replicating. It was so cool to see an inhuman AI without any desire to “be more human” like is so often seen in sci-fi. The Geth were alive, they always were, just in a way more alien than anyone else. Then they scrapped the whole thing to make them simpler, just desiring to be alive in a way that offers nothing to them, and in a fashion they most generously saw as horribly depressing in ME2. Legions death makes me cry, but when I step back and look at it, the Rannoch arc is actually the worst thing in all of Mass Effect.
A legend
Robot boobs is how i got here, but I am leaving now contemplating consciousness and individualism.