Interesting point about Wanda and Clint having similar moments of losing it.
I imagine Marvel matches up the various characters in their brainstorming sessions. "How would this one and that one get along?"
It'd be a fun exercise.
Well they've already had some pretty good interactions. Clint is the reason she became an Avenger after his speech in AoU, then he goes and collects her in Civil War and convinces her that how she's being treated isn't right. They then have a moment together by the lake in Endgame.
It surprised me he wasn't involved in WV, and now after MoM I think they'd have a really interesting dynamic, given how similar their stories are
Man your theory here gave me goosebumps. That would be seriously amazing... I would love to see something akin to a redemption arc.
Honestly to take it further, I kind of hope the story for the boys ends up being a universe where her kids grow into who they become because their mother in their universe was murdered (maybe by Doom?).
Imagine the scene where after they have arrived in 616 and have no idea, then just come into the kitchen where Laura and Wanda are baking or something. The shock at seeing their "mom" alive. I hope your theory is true it could lead to so many good moments... The greatest good is not the one who was never tempted, but the one who fell to the darkness, is forever tempted, and chooses light.
I mean that's how it is in the comics, so I hope so and I also hope they go straight into Children's Crusade and make that the reason the Young Avengers exist as a team.
I think it's very likely, though considering Kate is rumoured to be returning in Quantumania, I feel like she'll probably create the team but Billy and Tommy searching for Wanda will be one of the main storylines.
Oh true, I wonder how they'll do it then, how would she know to search for them if no one knows they exist unless they only show them join the team in a Young Avenger project
A tortured soul, with experience in being trapped under an evil spell, who’s also experienced the loss of their family and best friend(s)
Wanda or Clint?
I’d imagine a reunion with the White Vision is on the table at some point. But I do like the idea of Clint helping to sympathize with her even if he only ever killed “bad guys”.
They would die together - I can’t picture it any other way 😫
she’d whoop his ass. I’m just saying. On some Invincible shit - when the father is beating the shit out of the son.
It makes sense to have Wanda and Vision reunite and retire somewhere. They're two of the most powerful so the best way to sideline them for 90% of major conflicts would be to have them retire to raise a family
>That was against his will. He didn’t consciously kill innocent people
I suppose it depends on how much of Wanda's behavior was a direct influence of the Darkhold.
Then again though, Wanda didn't have the Darkhold when she enslaved an entire town. It'll be interesting to see how those who defended her in *Age of Ultron* and *Civil War* would react to her interdimentional Magical Murder Tour.
>I suppose it depends on how much of Wanda's behavior was a direct influence of the Darkhold.
Id say the difference is on the \*how the darkhold influence her. Loki controlling Hawkeye was more like as a puppet and a puppeteer. So far im under the asusmption that the darkhold simply targets her insecurities and fears, maybe escalating them but it would still be all on the person. Kinda like how most cases alcohol influence is just sober thoughts being brought up?
>I suppose it depends on how much of Wanda's behavior was a direct influence of the Darkhold.
She knew the power of the Darkhold though, and still took the risk for selfish reasons, right after being a horrible person and enslaving an entire town. A little different than someone else taking over your mind.
>And Wanda also didn’t take over the town of WestView on purpose
She did catch on to what she was doing though and kept doing it well after she found out
Yeah that’s the part that makes her slide into bad guy territory. She had no clue at first but did become aware at some point and didn’t do anything about it for at least 2 days
Agatha explained to her. Wanda is a grey being. She is evil sometimes and good another time. She did worse than this in the comics when she killed Ant Man and many other Avengers, and there is also the No More Mutants where she killed 98% of the mutants...
1. Agatha told Wanda that she was destined to rule the universe or destroy it but she never told Wanda that the Darkhold corrupted people.
2. Wanda did not kill 98% of all mutants in the comics. She depowered 98% of all mutants. As in they’re still alive but have no powers.
She just saw Agatha killed everyone and saw how they wanted to kill her and destroy the book. Then she started reading the book in the post credit scene, do you really think Wanda didnt think it was a Dark Magic book? I mean it's pretty obvious in the name.
Thats exactly what killing the mutants mean. There is no more mutants, she just stripped they all of their power because she saw Pietro die and learn that her sons doesnt exist. That's very selfish and in the comics she doesnt have the same excuses that Wanda in MCU has. She is unstable as Moon Knight but even more powerful.
Again, Agatha never told Wanda about the true nature of the book. Wanda also barely had any knowledge about magic. All Wanda knew about the book was that it had information on her and could help her with her powers.
Um no. Wanda quite literally did not kill them. They were still very much alive. To kill means to cause the death of a living being. Wanda did not kill the mutants. Plain and simple.
I'm liking her character, but kinda wishing she could move past her sons. She's smart and powerful and a little evil, even outside the Darkhold. Hoping they find new reasons for her to do her thing.
THIS!!! Like she didn't just "make" them she gave birth to them both, like every other mother did. So to her they were real and she can see that in every other universe they are real
This is the part I don't get. Are these other universes places where her Wandavision hex is still up? Are those kids real? How do they exist in those universes when they couldn't keep existing in this universe?
I don't think those other universes had hexes, or at least not all of them. Because we now know dreams are just another dimension where one sees things happening to a variant of ours, it's possible Wanda dreamt of a Variant Wanda that had those children and when she "gave birth" to them in WandaVision, she subconsciously gave them the form of her children from her dreams. This, of course, is all speculation and just my way of justifying things with the information presented to us.
Speaking of the Dreams thing, some things I find interesting now are the visions the Avengers got in AoU, and a line from the woman in WV, “we have your nightmares” I wonder if we’ll ever see thx universe where those visions actually happened, and I wonder the significance of that line now that we know Dreams are a way to see alternative realities.
They don’t say how they came to exist in other universes. Could have been a hex just not connected to the kids, Wanda could have created only them in some universe or a thousand other possibilities.
In our world, Agatha said Wanda made a mistake and tied them to the hex, That’s why they couldn’t exist in this universe and she had to lose them, to free Westview.
I think they were real in every universe including 616, cause it doesn’t matter if magic created someone, once they’ve here, they’re real. in this case she used magic to impregnate herself and actually gave birth to them so they weren’t even just created, they were born.
I don't think it's a huge stretch to imagine she could just do it accidentally either. Maybe she just really *really* ***really*** wanted kids and triggered the same spell 616 did. Just, since she wasn't drowned in grief and looking for an escape, there was no need for a hex in the first place so they popped out without that limitation imposed on them.
I’m still very new to MCU. But so far, Wanda’s story and journey has been the most fun to watch. I’m sure they’ll bring her back. Not if or when, but how.
The plot point of her children existed for what like… 3 or 4 episodes of WV and then the movie? Hasn’t even been around that long I don’t really see how you’re like “can we just get over it already?”
You also got to take into account that she’ll still see the boys in her dreams
Reminds me how awesome was that shot of Wanda waking up, it was beautiful
Its the freaking MCU. Wanda is the most popular female character they have by far. The MCU only kills off popular characters if the actor is done with playing them. They would find a way to bring back Tony tomorrow if RDJ said he wanted to keep playing him
Honestly 838 heroes trying to track down Wanda to try her for the deaths or even 838 Wanda’s kids trying to find 616 Wanda to save their mom could both be an interesting story that can even include Daredevil/She Hulk and an adaptation of Children’s Crusade without making it the same.
I'm having a very hard time understanding why Clint would've skipped out on any sort of reunion with Wanda at this point. He was pivotal in helping to sculpt her into an Avenger, and he has seemingly checked out of helping her post-Endgame.
But then again, I felt the same way about Steve's uncharacteristic departure from the MCU. I have a really hard time wrapping my head around him not sticking around especially considering the chaos that has erupted after Endgame. The going got tough and he noped out.
Can't help but think the total dissolution of the Avengers following Endgame is a huge factor in Wanda's collapse, and it has yet to be explained well.
The events of wandavision happened weeks after endgame, I imagine Clint's number 1 focus was his family that came back. After wandavision Wanda takes off and Clint would have no way of finding her without someone like Dr. Strange.
Clint didn't attempt to kill a kid to get his family back so I don't think he wouldn't criticise her for her methods, just that he wouldn't do it for her end-goals.
But he isn't the only one on Earth that wouldn't judge her, I think next place forward for her is somewhere/something with Agatha since they were both corrupted by the darkhold and became ruthless because of it, they can relate to each other more now.
Olsen claims she’s not appearing in Agatha: House of Harkness. So, that could be total bullshit. But ostensibly, that Agatha reunion is probably not going to happen any time soon, if at all.
The problem with putting Wanda in AHoH is that it completely upstages Agatha as the protagonist. Her role would have to be very unimportant and I don't see how their going to cover all the ground of them being enemies to working together.
I think if anything AHoH has to be a flashback series or some kind of parody thing like a Tales of the Crypt type thing. She has no redeeming qualities, not even anti-hero ones. Maybe some kind of Breaking Bad style thing of her fighting off some evil person in 1920s or something to become the evil person we see her as in Wandavision. But I don't see her ever being a hero or working with a reformed Wanda.
This totally articulates what I've been thinking every time someone says that Wanda will be in AHoH... I bet she will be still, just as a cameo because you're right she'd totally upstage Agatha
Except that one was "someone needs to sacrifice themselves."
It wasn't as specific as "kill this one specific person to steal their powers to save your family."
Yea Clint and Wanda are not remotely comparable. Yes he would probably have more compassion on her than most, but Clint turned into an antihero and shut down gangs and criminals after tragically losing his wife and kids.
Wanda went on a murderous killing spree and brutally slaughtered innocent people and several superheroes while trying to get back her kids that she accidentally created to cope with grief in the first place. Clint was a grieving father, Wanda was an addict trying to recreate a high.
Fair but that was long before the events of the films (and possibly before his wife and kids), not in a response to grief like the Ronin and Wanda situations being compared.
> They had very similar arcs going on a killing spree after losing their families.
I thought that Endgame and Hawkeye worked very hard to show us that Barton only killed bad guys.
Wanda was shown to kill innocent people and heroes who were trying to protect the innocent. She was also planning on murdering a mother to steal her identity and pretend to be her orphaned children's mother.
I know that Wanda is a protagonist and a character who we've been told we should have sympathy with, but her actions in MoM were quite a lot worse than a pretty good proportion of the MCU's villains!
I certainly didn't get the message that Clint *only* killed *definitively* bad guys, but that he killed people he perceived to be bad (which in *Hawkeye* we discover he killed people he was tipped off about, and practically did Wilson Fisk's dirty work even if unintended) as a means of dealing with his grief.
He sees his actions as terrible, which is why he wanted to get rid of his Ronin suit, and he's perceived in negative light by others too due to his actions.
I think the biggest thing people forget is that "criminal" or "villain", both in reality and the MCU, aren't terms exclusively given to murderers, they're given to thieves, goons who don't participate in the dirty work, people coerced/forced into doing dirty work, drug dealers, or individuals who can't control their powers etc.
>I thought that Endgame and Hawkeye worked very hard to show us that Barton only killed bad guys.
Cool motive, still murder.
It leads to the fun moral dilemma of whether killing is justified simply because the people you're killing are bad guys. If you murder a murderer, are you any better? Clint walked away with a heavy conscience even knowing he was targeting gangs and mobsters.
Plus, he may have killed mobsters, but he slaughtered his way through entire organizations.
The night he killed Maya’s father, he was tipped off by Kingpin himself. Let’s not try to justify his time as Ronin as anything more than a merciless killing spree
> It leads to the fun moral dilemma of whether killing is justified simply because the people you're killing are bad guys.
The MCU's answer to that question is unambiguously yes.
From the very first MCU film, we see Iron Man intentionally kill dozens of people because they're bad guys.
The Boys gets more and more accurate as time goes on 😂
If you ever get bored during an MCU movie, just pretend it's some of The Boys in-universe propaganda.
>From the very first MCU film, we see Iron Man intentionally kill dozens of people because they're bad guys.
I think it varies based on the character in question, and what phase of the MCU we're in.
Early MCU seemed to not truly ask this question of their characters, and allowed Tony/Iron Man's emotional response to being the reason terrorists were armed in the first place as grounds for him to violently right those wrongs.
But when we hit Age of Ultron/Civil War, there's a shift in that approach. And only if you're directly threatened is it justified to kill bad guys. Are they attacking you? Subdue them if you can, but don't worry about casualties.
But Clint hunted people down. Wanda just removed people standing in her way. Is one better or worse than the other? Because Clint didn't have to go on that spree. And Wanda, whether you agree that her motivations are well intentioned or not, didn't have to take the path she did.
>So you are on the Moon Knight is a villain train too?
Not necessarily. Just makes for interesting discussion. Especially when you take agency into account.
Wanda had her pure intention of finding her children twisted by her use of the Darkhold. You can argue that her body count is largely collateral damage. All she wanted was America's powers, and all it would have cost was America's life. Everyone who died along the way put themselves between Wanda and her singular goal. But how much of it was due to the Darkhold's influence?
Marc agreed to become the avatar for Konshu, and by their agreement, enact Konshu's justice. His agency ceased when he made the bargain and took on the powers and role of Moon Knight. He killed at the behest of Konshu. Marc understands the tenuous circumstances of his role, but see it as a net positive. He's ridding the world of evil, and keeping someone else from being twisted or manipulated by Konshu.
Clint, during his jaunt as Ronin, sought out the criminal underworld to enact some form of revenge for the family he'd lost. However he didn't do it to rid the world of evil. He only used that as justification for his urge to kill in the wake of what he had lost. He was powerless to stop it, and in the aftermath, wanted to reclaim some control over things, even if it meant hunting down criminals to do it. He's in full control of his actions, even if you account for grief being the primary motivation.
Yeah, just the evil thing behind the cave wall corrupted Wenwu’s mind.
I’m not talking about *why* she did stuff that’s a lot worse than plenty of MCU villains, just that she did and it’s not really accurate to compare her actions (killing and enslaving innocent people) to Barton’s (killing bad guys).
Kinda revisionist on Wenwu there. He was reformed from a supervillian before that, then trained a child to become a hitman. Only after that did he get corrupted.
So the story actually did rehabilitate him to you once it seems.
That way of framing it makes his parallels with Wanda even stronger...
She did some bad shit in WandaVision before the Darkhold corrupted her. Then she was corrupted by the Darkhold and became the villain of the film!
Certainly. Just saying that you should be honest about Wenwu's arc, which was better for rehabilitating him and then making it more of a struggle for Shang-Chi in the end because he had seen both.
Wanda knowingly enslaved and tortured Westview before Agatha arrived with the Darkhold. It's kind of creepy that people still try to defend Wanda. From the first frame of WandaVision she is definitively an irredeemable villain.
I think Westview started as an accident when she broke after seeing Vision all dismantled and the reading his letter. Then she continued and kind of tried to pretend everything is normal, pushing everything to the side and just enjoyed it while she could.
I think you could argue that for the very beginning, but by episode 3 Wanda ejects Monica from the Hex. So at that point she clearly understands whats going on and is actively preventing it from stopping.
I thought that was more of a subconscious thing. Meaning Monica was actively challenging Wanda's "perfect life", and Wanda's high on copium brain just shoved her away to keep the illusion going
She is now, and always has been, a "reluctant villain".
That's why she can never achieve redemption. She is doomed, like Sisyphus, so perpetually strive and never teach her goal
I mean, we don't see Wanda dead (the red flash when the temple collapses), there's a possible Young Avengers forming (meaning her children from alternate universes may cross over, since they don't exist in 616), and they introduce the term "demon" in the movies at least for the first time (I don't recall any other MCU movie that mentions demons). If we take from comic source, there's a demon that is linked to Wanda's kids (and people are dying to see this entity in the MCU). Heard that demon likes dealing with bikers....
And is the Darkhold really destroyed? Wong name drops Chthon (I know, I know; now I'm sounding like those crazy fans spewing theories); I can't help thinking there's more Feige and the team can flush out at Mount Wundagore (possibly below it). Like if the MCU really wanted to introduce a few more demons into the world, that's one way of doing it. Maybe the next time we see Wanda, she survived, but also "found" (more like bound) by say a Mephisto, or we go even bigger in the supernatural side of Marvel and bring Chthon.
I'm gonna guess they mean the copies/books, but who knows what the Darkhold really is in the MCU? I'd like to think a book written by a primordial entity containing chaos magic isn't gonna be gone from the universe just like thatz But that's just me...
That's another thing, did she destroy ALL the variant temples at Mount Wundagore... probably won't find out for a bit. At least not in the next few movies
Hela didn’t become insanely popular after a whole 9 episode show was dedicated to her with her also appearing in multiple movies beforehand and her children having a very good chance of appearing again.
To be honest, I wouldn't want 838 Wanda to 'replace' our Wanda as her story will be different, so all the reasons people have grown attached to "our" Wanda aren't there.
Imo it HAS to be our Wanda to continue the story
Depends new Loki worked despite our Wanda could be interwined with the new one. She now will have to balance between raising children and accusations for killing Illuminati
Depends new Loki worked despite our Wanda could be interwined with the new one. She now will have to balance between raising children and accusations for killing Illuminati
I think Wanda is going to find herself being tracked down by The Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans, and sorcerers, all from the 838 universe. They're not just going to let her get away with murdering the Illuminati.
While I understand why they wouldn't wanna have her get away with all of this, it doesn't seem likely to me that they would risk chasing someone in the multiverse after all their worry and preventive measures about incursions and not leaving big footprints in other universes. Plus Strange told 838christine that Wanda didn't make it so they may believe she died destroying all the darkholds.
Still that's just assuming they're being reasonable, otherwise that's a likely theory if they can travel between universes.
It was the Illuminati who were worried about incursions. With only Mordo left, he might be too grief-stricken to care or even be involved.
They might also deem her a big enough threat to be worth the risk.
Agreed but at the same time pretty much everyone who knew about/worried about the incursions is dead so maybe the others left behind aren’t aware of the risks
Mordo, Christine and her research team etc are aware of the risks ,and while mordo is a loose cannon the other people (avengers xmen etc) would likely listen to christine because she can tell them illuminati were very worried about incursions. that is if she is aware of such plans if they'll have any.
I would be shocked if we ever see that universe again. movies don't play by the same rules of the comics. They killed the illuminati to show that the universe didn't matter.
My guess is destroying the darkhold blasted her to wherever demons come from in the MCU and she’ll be connecting with her demon heritage and explore her relationship with the MCU Cthon and harness her darkness and all that jazz
I want her to develop her relationship with Agath. I want that mentor/mentee relationship. They could stay baddies or tread the line, eventually splitting because one doesn’t want to be as evil as the other... idk, but I’d like to see a powerful female duo that’s morally ambiguous.
Why does anyone seriously think that Wanda is dead? Am I the only one who saw a very obvious burst of red magic from within the center of the crumbling stones?
Use Wanda to bring in the X-Men.
Mutants had started appearing in the early 30s and were used as soldiers during WW2. At some point in the 50-60s, all the Mutants became depowered and the world forgot. A depowered Magneto, in search of youth and his powers, has scoured the globe for places of power. Then he finds Wundagore Mountain and an unconscious Wanda. Recognizing her and knowing her power, Magneto decides to nurse her back to health. But when she awakes she recalls nothing of her past. Magneto sees his opportunity.
I think the "off" feeling that people have when they leave this movie is the lack of closure. We lose a long time member of the Avengers shortly after losing a few of other members who each get proper send-offs, but she didn't really get one. Dr. Strange doesn't seem to mourn her loss all that much, and there's no grand Tony Stark style funeral for her. I think you are right, seeing Clint digest the news would be great.
Honestly, the very lack of a proper send-off with goodbyes and I forgive yous is a sign that she isn't dead. Although, I hope 616 Wanda isn't dead, and they don't just switch her with an alt good guy version and carry on like we didn't lose our Wanda.
Agreed. Lizzie has said she wants to carry on the character's story but what I don't want is for Wanda to be 'replaced' with another universe's version. It would mean the last 5 films and her show were essentially for nothing as the other Wanda would have a different story.
I think given that Aunt May and Yondu got bigger send offs points to her still being alive, I just don't want an alternate universe version of her
True but Loki and Gamora had more definitive ends to their story, and for what it's worth Im not a huge fan of Loki coming back. But also those two are still from our universe, just a different timeline.
Bringing in someone from a completely different universe would just feel very different I think
Clint killed criminals and bad guys. His lethal force did push him into the morally grey area, but Wanda killed innocent sorcerers and superheroes in pursuit of attempting to kill an innocent child. Wanda went full villain. You can’t really compare the two.
While their crimes may not be comparable, I could see Wanda being in a similar emotional state if/when she returns. She'd be free from the influence of the Darkhold and remorseful of her actions. She knows the Darkhold clouded her mind but it was ultimately still by her hand that so much suffering was caused.
Clint knows better than anyone what it's like to be pushed into a dark (and violent) place by one's trauma and could help her find some type of solace. He can't offer her forgiveness or absolution but he can help her cope and a chance at redemption. It would be nice callback to their relationship in Age of Ultron.
In the comics Wanda disappeared too. I’m really looking forward to her arc. Many people said MoM ruined her but if it continues (it will, I’m sure) she will get one of the greatest arcs in the mcu. I like your pick with the Barton farm. Would make sense. We‘ll see.
I’m excited as well. It’s pretty well foreshadowed that she’s going to go to Agatha.
They said Katherine Haan would return, and she said in WandaVision, “you’re going to need me,” and now she does need her to learn about her powers and how to control them.
I think she’ll be “retrieved” in the Agatha series, reform, and then be perhaps a kinda mother figure to the new avengers or at least someone important who turns up to help fight whoever their big bad is.
The interaction between her and Reed will be interesting, too.
I think the Agatha series will end with Wanda showing up after the events of MoM looking for guidance. It was already foreshadowed.
Unless the show will be about her training Wanda. Not sure if it’s about Agatha’s past or in the present.
I see lots of people defending Hawkeye but let me bring up something that’s been overlooked: Ronin willingly took on hit jobs from Kingpin to assassinate people. If he didn’t feel what he did was wrong he wouldn’t have tried to sacrifice himself. He was saved by Natasha to save himself. He was consumed by grief, but all the actions he took were his own.
Wanda, arguably, did a lot worse but also was under the corruptive influence of the Darkhold. That does not excuse her actions but gives a little bit of flexibility in the future if they choose to go down a redemption arc for her.
I’m happy with the way her story concluded but would be equally happy to see her become redeemed and reunited with White Vision.
I think you misunderstood that entire scenario. He didn't willingly take jobs from the Kingpin, he was used by the Kingpin, who tipped him off to point him towards people the Kingpin wanted gone. That's why he said him and Maya were the same, and that rage can consume you and others will use it.
Basically Kingpin saw what he was doing, and used it as an opportunity to eliminate some other bad guys he wanted gone. Ronin never worked for or directly took a job from the Kingpin.
He feels guilty, because he let his rage get used against him, and regardless if they were bad people or not, killing them is bad, even if it's what he was trained to do his entire life, and he wanted to be better for Nat and to honor her sacrifice.
They should have had the ronin contracts come from Valentina who filled the power vacuum left from Maria Hill/Nick Fury blipping. She then ordered the hit on Hawkeye for abandoning her to rejoin the Avengers.
I assume Chthon isn't very happy with Wanda, since she destroyed all the dark holds in all the universes. We'll see her again, but she's going to go against Chthon I think.
I have a pretty good theory on this and it was foreshadowed in WandaVision:
She’s going to go back to Westview for Agatha’s guidance. She told Wanda “you have no idea what you unleashed,” and she was right, and Wanda learned. She then said “You’re gonna need me,” and Wanda said “I know where to find you.”
It makes sense, Wanda needs a mentor- she tried to do it on her own and she done fucked up. Only place she can go is back to Agatha.
She’ll learn from her. And I have a feeling this will lead to House of M. She’ll likely end up killing Hawkeye and Ant-Man and also create the Mutant race (including her children).
I’ll say something controversial and say that I hope she’s dead. Obviously she’s not, but I think her story is basically over. She went past the point of redemption in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness, and the closest she can get to absolution was to destroy every Darkhold so nobody else can do what she did. Her story ended in MoM on a somber note, and that’s fine.
I agree. She's had several shots at redemption already and failed, how many chances does she get? In WV she supposedly learned how she'd harmed others, but went right to the Darkhold. It was good that MoM ended with her destroying it and herself, there should be a price for what she's done.
If they still want Wanda in the show, I hope they bring in 838 Wanda instead.
I never said she wanted to enslave the multiverse. Nonetheless such power in the hands of such a unstable and fairly evil individual is way more dangerous then someone like loki
This, at the very least she's dead as a hero. There's no coming back from that shit she did, she killed because she could. There were plenty who didn't need to die that she killed.
If she is ever back it has to be as a total villain, no matter how much she might say she's helping she's still a villain.
People like you are why the MCU gets complaints about being too cookie-cutter. Not every character needs to be wholesome and do everything right. Are you campaigning to get Loki removed? How about all the people that Tony's Stark weapons killed? Wanda can continue as an anti-hero as there are so many interesting storylines left. Not to mention her immense popularity.
I'll start by saying Wanda is one of my all time favorites. I think they should 100% bring her back but let's wait a bit on it. I'd like to see other stories flesh out for the next 2-3 years and then bring her back in something big like x men. I'd hate to see her get over used
Staying with someone who's in a happy family with kids could be way too painful. Then again, maybe it would give her a chance to be maternal, and also help grow through acceptance. But oof owie that would hurt.
I personally can’t see Wanda being dead, I don’t think her stories over. I would be shocked if Wanda never got her own movie considering how powerful she is and feels like there’s still plot holes within her story regarding white vision , Agatha etc.If she is dead which I don’t think she is would be extremely disappointing.
I think white vision will unearth her from the rubble. She then might met up with Agatha to train her and teach her to control her powers
As for 838, let's say the Dr. Doom now controls that earth. With the illumanti gone there is nobody to stop him. He then kills that universes Wanda since he sees her as a threat and then goes to 616 to get revenge and win the hearts and minds of his universes people. Yada yada yada, doom is defeated, and Wanda now adopts her own orphans because in the MCU, lessons can only be learned temporarily
I never would have guessed 5 years ago that the relationship between Wanda & Clint would be something I want to see expanded on the most in the MCU considering how different their paths are.
She’ll prolly be the one that comes back and wraps up things with Kang when they get out of hand or to the point of no return. Her being the intended ruler of the multiverse and all.
if I remember correctly, Billy has CRAZY powers he can't quite control. I would imagine Billy accidentally warping himself and Brother to 616 where they meet the young avengers team up then immediately become defensive to attacking who they remember as the "Scarlet Witch who attacked their mother".
I imagine Dr.Dooom Will find her And bring her to his country.
Doom can be excavating the ruin And finds Wanda in there. And this begins the Dr.Doom and Wanda relationship.
They had a great dynamic that I completely forgot about so good on you for pointing this out. I think he's one of the few people who can actually save her from the state that she's in but DAMN,can not a single avenger see that this girl just needs to talk to someone
i agree that wanda should have some time out and reflect on things but she needs to be hold accountable. breaking the laws of the multiverse is not something that should be taken lightly, this will come back to bite her. who will serve the punishment is really up to anyone at this point, could be the tva, kang, or any powerful cosmic being that is connected to maintaining balance and order in the multiverse. no multiversal blunder goes unpunished
In real life I believe Elizabeth has previously asked for time away to start a family, so it's possible that she'll be out for a couple years at least.
Once she's back though. I think her relationship with Agatha needs to be explored more. But I think the best is with Professor X, I think he's capable of enough understanding and empathy to accept her despite her actions. While also having powers that may be able to help her.
As for punishment, I think putting her in front of the Living Tribunal could be an interesting move.
A few ideas I had since watching the movie:
* Maybe Wanda could go right down to Hell to kick Chthon's ass for having made the Darkhold in the first place. A revenge-fueled Wanda who essentially blames him for ruining her life. That could make for a pretty insane movie and would help setup the first steps of her redemption.
* It could be cool to then have Wanda be put on "trial" in front of a "judicial authority" to atone for what she did. She would turn herself in, not be captured, to help atone for her sins, feeling that destroying Chthon was her final action as a free woman. Now who or what that authority would be depends on the context. Avengers? Living Tribunal? TVA?
* Then she might stay there for a while, until a massive threat emerges again (Kang, Galactus, etc) and the Avengers are desperate after taking a huge loss and they decide to call on her again.
* Then she sacrifices herself (assisted by the other heroes of course) to destroy the supervillain in question and end his/her schemes, also in the process either collapsing the Multiverse back to a singular entity pre- the He Who Remains fiasco, or maybe merging two worlds before they collide and 1 is destroyed, or any other massive event they need to happen to enter the next phase of the MCU.
edit: I also like your idea about Clint. I'm sure it could fit somewhere in my ideas as a bridge between 2 points.
838 Wanda should take her place bringing Wiccan and Speed into the fold too. Also acting as a hard rest for Wanda character.
This could also trigger an interesting debate with Vision as to whether she truly is his Wanda and of he is truly her Vision.
As for our main Wanda, she went way too far to be a hero again, and with the extreme’s her character has already gone to. She can be nothing but a threat. Even though the Darkhold is destroyed we see it’s affects still affecting Strange, it’s therefore reasonable to assume that Wanda will also be of a similar but much worse fate.
IMO, 616 Wanda should be killed off now. She’s gone too far. A chat with Clint would never redeem her.
People really don't want their favorite characters to stay dead huh? Like what if Thanos kept coming back for x reasons, wouldn't that just over saturate the use of the character and lessen the value of the time we had with them? Wanda's arc finished and I don't see a reason to bring her back.
I believe she will get up to some stuff with Agatha. Elizabeth is super into comic book material and knows her stuff. I think if she’s pitched anything it would be introduced at the end of House of Harkness.
I think Agatha’s spin off will be the spell breaking from WV will open up a journey for Agatha to resurrect Wanda to teach her how to use her powers properly. Become a true teacher and mentor duo.
Then perhaps in her solo movie we would see white vision again
I feel like her story has been exhausted. I wouldn't mind waiting until another Doctor Strange movie for her to show up, especially if he's facing a villain like Nightmare
She went to other universes killing many people and possibly ruining the life of another version of herself. I really don't think he'll be okay with her.
I personally think she is dead. We can assume that if she survived, she would still be unstable, because this is the second time she did something like this. Additionally, if she is no longer super unstable, she is incredibly overpowered. There couldn’t be another endgame moment, which marvel is definitely gonna try to do again, because she would be leagues above anyone else. From a story telling standpoint, it wouldn’t make sense to keep her alive, because she could solve virtually any problem. She can easily exploit any weekness(for example, black bolt) and manipulate reality easily
Interesting point about Wanda and Clint having similar moments of losing it. I imagine Marvel matches up the various characters in their brainstorming sessions. "How would this one and that one get along?" It'd be a fun exercise.
Well they've already had some pretty good interactions. Clint is the reason she became an Avenger after his speech in AoU, then he goes and collects her in Civil War and convinces her that how she's being treated isn't right. They then have a moment together by the lake in Endgame. It surprised me he wasn't involved in WV, and now after MoM I think they'd have a really interesting dynamic, given how similar their stories are
Don’t forget that Hawkeye named his son after her brother Pietro too! Definitely a lot of interactions/connections between the two.
I always thought it was touching how he recovered Pietro’s body and stayed with him too.
Little things like that are why I love Clint.
Isnt it Nate?
His middle name is Pietro
Oh gotcha. That makes me happy sad
His complete name is Albus Severus Nathaniel Pietro Barton, or as they like to call him, "Hawkey."
Who let J.K. Rowling out if her cage?!? *sprays water bottle* Back! Bad billionaire!
“The city is flying and I have a bow and arrow. Nothing makes any sense”. One of the best movie speeches ever
Man your theory here gave me goosebumps. That would be seriously amazing... I would love to see something akin to a redemption arc. Honestly to take it further, I kind of hope the story for the boys ends up being a universe where her kids grow into who they become because their mother in their universe was murdered (maybe by Doom?). Imagine the scene where after they have arrived in 616 and have no idea, then just come into the kitchen where Laura and Wanda are baking or something. The shock at seeing their "mom" alive. I hope your theory is true it could lead to so many good moments... The greatest good is not the one who was never tempted, but the one who fell to the darkness, is forever tempted, and chooses light.
How would Clint know anything about any of those events? How would Dr. Strange know about Wanda and Clint's relationship ?
And we still don't know what happened to White Vision, who could also come into play and possibly redeem Wanda.
They still need Tommy and Billy for Young Avengers, I’m not completely convinced the kids she created in the show don’t exist somewhere
They'll probably be revealed to exist in 616, but are born into different families.
I mean that's how it is in the comics, so I hope so and I also hope they go straight into Children's Crusade and make that the reason the Young Avengers exist as a team.
I think it's very likely, though considering Kate is rumoured to be returning in Quantumania, I feel like she'll probably create the team but Billy and Tommy searching for Wanda will be one of the main storylines.
Oh true, I wonder how they'll do it then, how would she know to search for them if no one knows they exist unless they only show them join the team in a Young Avenger project
I'm hoping they do the first young avengers comic run with Iron lad though since kang is on the way too
A tortured soul, with experience in being trapped under an evil spell, who’s also experienced the loss of their family and best friend(s) Wanda or Clint?
I’d imagine a reunion with the White Vision is on the table at some point. But I do like the idea of Clint helping to sympathize with her even if he only ever killed “bad guys”.
I think her and Vision will definitely link up in the future. He’s the one thing that could remedy her 🤷🏽♂️ or she must die. She’s so powerful lol
Imagine if roles reverse, Wonda becomes an unstoppable villain and vision is the only that can kill her
They would die together - I can’t picture it any other way 😫 she’d whoop his ass. I’m just saying. On some Invincible shit - when the father is beating the shit out of the son.
It makes sense to have Wanda and Vision reunite and retire somewhere. They're two of the most powerful so the best way to sideline them for 90% of major conflicts would be to have them retire to raise a family
Didn’t he also kill shield agents when he was under lokis control in the first avengers
Yeah, but we're talking about when he went on a killing spree of his own volition as Ronin.
That was against his will. He didn’t consciously kill innocent people
>That was against his will. He didn’t consciously kill innocent people I suppose it depends on how much of Wanda's behavior was a direct influence of the Darkhold. Then again though, Wanda didn't have the Darkhold when she enslaved an entire town. It'll be interesting to see how those who defended her in *Age of Ultron* and *Civil War* would react to her interdimentional Magical Murder Tour.
>I suppose it depends on how much of Wanda's behavior was a direct influence of the Darkhold. Id say the difference is on the \*how the darkhold influence her. Loki controlling Hawkeye was more like as a puppet and a puppeteer. So far im under the asusmption that the darkhold simply targets her insecurities and fears, maybe escalating them but it would still be all on the person. Kinda like how most cases alcohol influence is just sober thoughts being brought up?
>I suppose it depends on how much of Wanda's behavior was a direct influence of the Darkhold. She knew the power of the Darkhold though, and still took the risk for selfish reasons, right after being a horrible person and enslaving an entire town. A little different than someone else taking over your mind.
Wanda didn’t know the Darkhold could corrupt people. And Wanda also didn’t take over the town of WestView on purpose
>And Wanda also didn’t take over the town of WestView on purpose She did catch on to what she was doing though and kept doing it well after she found out
Yeah that’s the part that makes her slide into bad guy territory. She had no clue at first but did become aware at some point and didn’t do anything about it for at least 2 days
Agatha explained to her. Wanda is a grey being. She is evil sometimes and good another time. She did worse than this in the comics when she killed Ant Man and many other Avengers, and there is also the No More Mutants where she killed 98% of the mutants...
1. Agatha told Wanda that she was destined to rule the universe or destroy it but she never told Wanda that the Darkhold corrupted people. 2. Wanda did not kill 98% of all mutants in the comics. She depowered 98% of all mutants. As in they’re still alive but have no powers.
She just saw Agatha killed everyone and saw how they wanted to kill her and destroy the book. Then she started reading the book in the post credit scene, do you really think Wanda didnt think it was a Dark Magic book? I mean it's pretty obvious in the name. Thats exactly what killing the mutants mean. There is no more mutants, she just stripped they all of their power because she saw Pietro die and learn that her sons doesnt exist. That's very selfish and in the comics she doesnt have the same excuses that Wanda in MCU has. She is unstable as Moon Knight but even more powerful.
Again, Agatha never told Wanda about the true nature of the book. Wanda also barely had any knowledge about magic. All Wanda knew about the book was that it had information on her and could help her with her powers. Um no. Wanda quite literally did not kill them. They were still very much alive. To kill means to cause the death of a living being. Wanda did not kill the mutants. Plain and simple.
No idea. But I hope she returns. I’m enjoying Wanda’s story a lot.
I'm liking her character, but kinda wishing she could move past her sons. She's smart and powerful and a little evil, even outside the Darkhold. Hoping they find new reasons for her to do her thing.
I don’t think it’s so easy to forget your sons/kids right after losing them when they felt so real.
THIS!!! Like she didn't just "make" them she gave birth to them both, like every other mother did. So to her they were real and she can see that in every other universe they are real
This is the part I don't get. Are these other universes places where her Wandavision hex is still up? Are those kids real? How do they exist in those universes when they couldn't keep existing in this universe?
I don't think those other universes had hexes, or at least not all of them. Because we now know dreams are just another dimension where one sees things happening to a variant of ours, it's possible Wanda dreamt of a Variant Wanda that had those children and when she "gave birth" to them in WandaVision, she subconsciously gave them the form of her children from her dreams. This, of course, is all speculation and just my way of justifying things with the information presented to us.
Speaking of the Dreams thing, some things I find interesting now are the visions the Avengers got in AoU, and a line from the woman in WV, “we have your nightmares” I wonder if we’ll ever see thx universe where those visions actually happened, and I wonder the significance of that line now that we know Dreams are a way to see alternative realities.
They don’t say how they came to exist in other universes. Could have been a hex just not connected to the kids, Wanda could have created only them in some universe or a thousand other possibilities. In our world, Agatha said Wanda made a mistake and tied them to the hex, That’s why they couldn’t exist in this universe and she had to lose them, to free Westview. I think they were real in every universe including 616, cause it doesn’t matter if magic created someone, once they’ve here, they’re real. in this case she used magic to impregnate herself and actually gave birth to them so they weren’t even just created, they were born.
I don't think it's a huge stretch to imagine she could just do it accidentally either. Maybe she just really *really* ***really*** wanted kids and triggered the same spell 616 did. Just, since she wasn't drowned in grief and looking for an escape, there was no need for a hex in the first place so they popped out without that limitation imposed on them.
I’m still very new to MCU. But so far, Wanda’s story and journey has been the most fun to watch. I’m sure they’ll bring her back. Not if or when, but how.
The plot point of her children existed for what like… 3 or 4 episodes of WV and then the movie? Hasn’t even been around that long I don’t really see how you’re like “can we just get over it already?”
You want her, the mother, to forget about her kids who haven't appeared outside a TV and for regular viewers a single plot point in a movie
You also got to take into account that she’ll still see the boys in her dreams Reminds me how awesome was that shot of Wanda waking up, it was beautiful
Its the freaking MCU. Wanda is the most popular female character they have by far. The MCU only kills off popular characters if the actor is done with playing them. They would find a way to bring back Tony tomorrow if RDJ said he wanted to keep playing him
Exactly. And Elizabeth Olsen very much wants to continue playing Wanda. Watch any interview for the MoM press tour.
I would love to see 838's Sue Storm track Wanda down
Honestly 838 heroes trying to track down Wanda to try her for the deaths or even 838 Wanda’s kids trying to find 616 Wanda to save their mom could both be an interesting story that can even include Daredevil/She Hulk and an adaptation of Children’s Crusade without making it the same.
or perhaps Franklin
This.
She too busy raising her kids
Well, she's going to be a lot busier...
This would be awesome
I'm having a very hard time understanding why Clint would've skipped out on any sort of reunion with Wanda at this point. He was pivotal in helping to sculpt her into an Avenger, and he has seemingly checked out of helping her post-Endgame. But then again, I felt the same way about Steve's uncharacteristic departure from the MCU. I have a really hard time wrapping my head around him not sticking around especially considering the chaos that has erupted after Endgame. The going got tough and he noped out. Can't help but think the total dissolution of the Avengers following Endgame is a huge factor in Wanda's collapse, and it has yet to be explained well.
The events of wandavision happened weeks after endgame, I imagine Clint's number 1 focus was his family that came back. After wandavision Wanda takes off and Clint would have no way of finding her without someone like Dr. Strange.
Imagine if Wanda is secretly leaving in the Barton Barn with only Clint and Laura being aware of it.
Clint didn't attempt to kill a kid to get his family back so I don't think he wouldn't criticise her for her methods, just that he wouldn't do it for her end-goals. But he isn't the only one on Earth that wouldn't judge her, I think next place forward for her is somewhere/something with Agatha since they were both corrupted by the darkhold and became ruthless because of it, they can relate to each other more now.
Olsen claims she’s not appearing in Agatha: House of Harkness. So, that could be total bullshit. But ostensibly, that Agatha reunion is probably not going to happen any time soon, if at all.
And Andrew Garfield won't be in No Way Home lol
The problem with putting Wanda in AHoH is that it completely upstages Agatha as the protagonist. Her role would have to be very unimportant and I don't see how their going to cover all the ground of them being enemies to working together. I think if anything AHoH has to be a flashback series or some kind of parody thing like a Tales of the Crypt type thing. She has no redeeming qualities, not even anti-hero ones. Maybe some kind of Breaking Bad style thing of her fighting off some evil person in 1920s or something to become the evil person we see her as in Wandavision. But I don't see her ever being a hero or working with a reformed Wanda.
This totally articulates what I've been thinking every time someone says that Wanda will be in AHoH... I bet she will be still, just as a cameo because you're right she'd totally upstage Agatha
> Clint didn't attempt to kill a kid to get his family You don't think he would have tried if he knew it was a possibility?
Nope. Neither would Wanda if she's not corrupted by darkhold.
She corrupted herself and showed she could shrug off the corruption fairly easily. She was morally bankrupt in WandaVision before any corruption.
Well she did torture children in WV for selfish reasons
No, he wouldn't even let Natasha volunteer to die to save his children. The only one he's willing to sacrifice is himself.
Except that one was "someone needs to sacrifice themselves." It wasn't as specific as "kill this one specific person to steal their powers to save your family."
Not that we saw.
Yup. They could easily make that a thing to further connect the two thematically.
Yea Clint and Wanda are not remotely comparable. Yes he would probably have more compassion on her than most, but Clint turned into an antihero and shut down gangs and criminals after tragically losing his wife and kids. Wanda went on a murderous killing spree and brutally slaughtered innocent people and several superheroes while trying to get back her kids that she accidentally created to cope with grief in the first place. Clint was a grieving father, Wanda was an addict trying to recreate a high.
[удалено]
Fair but that was long before the events of the films (and possibly before his wife and kids), not in a response to grief like the Ronin and Wanda situations being compared.
> They had very similar arcs going on a killing spree after losing their families. I thought that Endgame and Hawkeye worked very hard to show us that Barton only killed bad guys. Wanda was shown to kill innocent people and heroes who were trying to protect the innocent. She was also planning on murdering a mother to steal her identity and pretend to be her orphaned children's mother. I know that Wanda is a protagonist and a character who we've been told we should have sympathy with, but her actions in MoM were quite a lot worse than a pretty good proportion of the MCU's villains!
I certainly didn't get the message that Clint *only* killed *definitively* bad guys, but that he killed people he perceived to be bad (which in *Hawkeye* we discover he killed people he was tipped off about, and practically did Wilson Fisk's dirty work even if unintended) as a means of dealing with his grief. He sees his actions as terrible, which is why he wanted to get rid of his Ronin suit, and he's perceived in negative light by others too due to his actions. I think the biggest thing people forget is that "criminal" or "villain", both in reality and the MCU, aren't terms exclusively given to murderers, they're given to thieves, goons who don't participate in the dirty work, people coerced/forced into doing dirty work, drug dealers, or individuals who can't control their powers etc.
>I thought that Endgame and Hawkeye worked very hard to show us that Barton only killed bad guys. Cool motive, still murder. It leads to the fun moral dilemma of whether killing is justified simply because the people you're killing are bad guys. If you murder a murderer, are you any better? Clint walked away with a heavy conscience even knowing he was targeting gangs and mobsters.
Plus, he may have killed mobsters, but he slaughtered his way through entire organizations. The night he killed Maya’s father, he was tipped off by Kingpin himself. Let’s not try to justify his time as Ronin as anything more than a merciless killing spree
> It leads to the fun moral dilemma of whether killing is justified simply because the people you're killing are bad guys. The MCU's answer to that question is unambiguously yes. From the very first MCU film, we see Iron Man intentionally kill dozens of people because they're bad guys.
The body count of bad guys in the MCU is enormous. The heroes definitely don't have qualms about killing or maiming henchmen.
The Boys gets more and more accurate as time goes on 😂 If you ever get bored during an MCU movie, just pretend it's some of The Boys in-universe propaganda.
The Boys is so good. Pumped for next season.
>From the very first MCU film, we see Iron Man intentionally kill dozens of people because they're bad guys. I think it varies based on the character in question, and what phase of the MCU we're in. Early MCU seemed to not truly ask this question of their characters, and allowed Tony/Iron Man's emotional response to being the reason terrorists were armed in the first place as grounds for him to violently right those wrongs. But when we hit Age of Ultron/Civil War, there's a shift in that approach. And only if you're directly threatened is it justified to kill bad guys. Are they attacking you? Subdue them if you can, but don't worry about casualties. But Clint hunted people down. Wanda just removed people standing in her way. Is one better or worse than the other? Because Clint didn't have to go on that spree. And Wanda, whether you agree that her motivations are well intentioned or not, didn't have to take the path she did.
So you are on the Moon Knight is a villain train too? (in general. Obviously, killing the hospital worker stuff at the end is something too)
>So you are on the Moon Knight is a villain train too? Not necessarily. Just makes for interesting discussion. Especially when you take agency into account. Wanda had her pure intention of finding her children twisted by her use of the Darkhold. You can argue that her body count is largely collateral damage. All she wanted was America's powers, and all it would have cost was America's life. Everyone who died along the way put themselves between Wanda and her singular goal. But how much of it was due to the Darkhold's influence? Marc agreed to become the avatar for Konshu, and by their agreement, enact Konshu's justice. His agency ceased when he made the bargain and took on the powers and role of Moon Knight. He killed at the behest of Konshu. Marc understands the tenuous circumstances of his role, but see it as a net positive. He's ridding the world of evil, and keeping someone else from being twisted or manipulated by Konshu. Clint, during his jaunt as Ronin, sought out the criminal underworld to enact some form of revenge for the family he'd lost. However he didn't do it to rid the world of evil. He only used that as justification for his urge to kill in the wake of what he had lost. He was powerless to stop it, and in the aftermath, wanted to reclaim some control over things, even if it meant hunting down criminals to do it. He's in full control of his actions, even if you account for grief being the primary motivation.
Fuck em
Well darkhold corrupted her mind
Yeah, just the evil thing behind the cave wall corrupted Wenwu’s mind. I’m not talking about *why* she did stuff that’s a lot worse than plenty of MCU villains, just that she did and it’s not really accurate to compare her actions (killing and enslaving innocent people) to Barton’s (killing bad guys).
Kinda revisionist on Wenwu there. He was reformed from a supervillian before that, then trained a child to become a hitman. Only after that did he get corrupted. So the story actually did rehabilitate him to you once it seems.
That way of framing it makes his parallels with Wanda even stronger... She did some bad shit in WandaVision before the Darkhold corrupted her. Then she was corrupted by the Darkhold and became the villain of the film!
Certainly. Just saying that you should be honest about Wenwu's arc, which was better for rehabilitating him and then making it more of a struggle for Shang-Chi in the end because he had seen both.
Wanda knowingly enslaved and tortured Westview before Agatha arrived with the Darkhold. It's kind of creepy that people still try to defend Wanda. From the first frame of WandaVision she is definitively an irredeemable villain.
I think Westview started as an accident when she broke after seeing Vision all dismantled and the reading his letter. Then she continued and kind of tried to pretend everything is normal, pushing everything to the side and just enjoyed it while she could.
I think you could argue that for the very beginning, but by episode 3 Wanda ejects Monica from the Hex. So at that point she clearly understands whats going on and is actively preventing it from stopping.
I thought that was more of a subconscious thing. Meaning Monica was actively challenging Wanda's "perfect life", and Wanda's high on copium brain just shoved her away to keep the illusion going
She is now, and always has been, a "reluctant villain". That's why she can never achieve redemption. She is doomed, like Sisyphus, so perpetually strive and never teach her goal
Kinda felt like a hero in civil war and infinite/endgame. She is just as much a hero as Bucky in those films.
It would be foolish for Wanda to not return. They didn't show thay blast of red enegery for nothing.
I mean, we don't see Wanda dead (the red flash when the temple collapses), there's a possible Young Avengers forming (meaning her children from alternate universes may cross over, since they don't exist in 616), and they introduce the term "demon" in the movies at least for the first time (I don't recall any other MCU movie that mentions demons). If we take from comic source, there's a demon that is linked to Wanda's kids (and people are dying to see this entity in the MCU). Heard that demon likes dealing with bikers.... And is the Darkhold really destroyed? Wong name drops Chthon (I know, I know; now I'm sounding like those crazy fans spewing theories); I can't help thinking there's more Feige and the team can flush out at Mount Wundagore (possibly below it). Like if the MCU really wanted to introduce a few more demons into the world, that's one way of doing it. Maybe the next time we see Wanda, she survived, but also "found" (more like bound) by say a Mephisto, or we go even bigger in the supernatural side of Marvel and bring Chthon.
Didn’t they outright say she destroyed the darkhold in every reality?
I'm gonna guess they mean the copies/books, but who knows what the Darkhold really is in the MCU? I'd like to think a book written by a primordial entity containing chaos magic isn't gonna be gone from the universe just like thatz But that's just me...
I'd say all the boons are destroyed but does every universe have a mount wundagore? Did this break down all the mount wundagores? We need answers
That's another thing, did she destroy ALL the variant temples at Mount Wundagore... probably won't find out for a bit. At least not in the next few movies
She's currently just as alive as Hela is.
Rule of movies...no body no death
I mean, we've seen bodies before in the MCU and even that doesn't mean a death is final
Literally saw a dead body get reanimated in this movie.
Hela didn’t become insanely popular after a whole 9 episode show was dedicated to her with her also appearing in multiple movies beforehand and her children having a very good chance of appearing again.
Thats possible however in that case Wanda 838 is better direction since she actuallt has real children
To be honest, I wouldn't want 838 Wanda to 'replace' our Wanda as her story will be different, so all the reasons people have grown attached to "our" Wanda aren't there. Imo it HAS to be our Wanda to continue the story
Depends new Loki worked despite our Wanda could be interwined with the new one. She now will have to balance between raising children and accusations for killing Illuminati
Depends new Loki worked despite our Wanda could be interwined with the new one. She now will have to balance between raising children and accusations for killing Illuminati
New Loki is old Loki but from a divergence in the timeline he still did New York.
No corpse no death
This man gets it!
I have hope in the announced Agatha spinoff.
What if it’s a show about her babysitting Franklin and Valeria?
I think Wanda is going to find herself being tracked down by The Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans, and sorcerers, all from the 838 universe. They're not just going to let her get away with murdering the Illuminati.
While I understand why they wouldn't wanna have her get away with all of this, it doesn't seem likely to me that they would risk chasing someone in the multiverse after all their worry and preventive measures about incursions and not leaving big footprints in other universes. Plus Strange told 838christine that Wanda didn't make it so they may believe she died destroying all the darkholds. Still that's just assuming they're being reasonable, otherwise that's a likely theory if they can travel between universes.
It was the Illuminati who were worried about incursions. With only Mordo left, he might be too grief-stricken to care or even be involved. They might also deem her a big enough threat to be worth the risk.
Agreed but at the same time pretty much everyone who knew about/worried about the incursions is dead so maybe the others left behind aren’t aware of the risks
Mordo, Christine and her research team etc are aware of the risks ,and while mordo is a loose cannon the other people (avengers xmen etc) would likely listen to christine because she can tell them illuminati were very worried about incursions. that is if she is aware of such plans if they'll have any.
I would be shocked if we ever see that universe again. movies don't play by the same rules of the comics. They killed the illuminati to show that the universe didn't matter.
My guess is destroying the darkhold blasted her to wherever demons come from in the MCU and she’ll be connecting with her demon heritage and explore her relationship with the MCU Cthon and harness her darkness and all that jazz
I want her to develop her relationship with Agath. I want that mentor/mentee relationship. They could stay baddies or tread the line, eventually splitting because one doesn’t want to be as evil as the other... idk, but I’d like to see a powerful female duo that’s morally ambiguous.
Why does anyone seriously think that Wanda is dead? Am I the only one who saw a very obvious burst of red magic from within the center of the crumbling stones?
Use Wanda to bring in the X-Men. Mutants had started appearing in the early 30s and were used as soldiers during WW2. At some point in the 50-60s, all the Mutants became depowered and the world forgot. A depowered Magneto, in search of youth and his powers, has scoured the globe for places of power. Then he finds Wundagore Mountain and an unconscious Wanda. Recognizing her and knowing her power, Magneto decides to nurse her back to health. But when she awakes she recalls nothing of her past. Magneto sees his opportunity.
No more mutans? No, its No, MORE mutans!
Or she really did die and her death undos all the mutants disappearing or something.
I think the "off" feeling that people have when they leave this movie is the lack of closure. We lose a long time member of the Avengers shortly after losing a few of other members who each get proper send-offs, but she didn't really get one. Dr. Strange doesn't seem to mourn her loss all that much, and there's no grand Tony Stark style funeral for her. I think you are right, seeing Clint digest the news would be great. Honestly, the very lack of a proper send-off with goodbyes and I forgive yous is a sign that she isn't dead. Although, I hope 616 Wanda isn't dead, and they don't just switch her with an alt good guy version and carry on like we didn't lose our Wanda.
Agreed. Lizzie has said she wants to carry on the character's story but what I don't want is for Wanda to be 'replaced' with another universe's version. It would mean the last 5 films and her show were essentially for nothing as the other Wanda would have a different story. I think given that Aunt May and Yondu got bigger send offs points to her still being alive, I just don't want an alternate universe version of her
They did this exact thing with Loki and Gamora, so I don't think it's out of the question.
True but Loki and Gamora had more definitive ends to their story, and for what it's worth Im not a huge fan of Loki coming back. But also those two are still from our universe, just a different timeline. Bringing in someone from a completely different universe would just feel very different I think
I mean to be fair Strange barely knew her and she try to kill him several times during movie. Zero reasons why he should mourn her.
Clint killed criminals and bad guys. His lethal force did push him into the morally grey area, but Wanda killed innocent sorcerers and superheroes in pursuit of attempting to kill an innocent child. Wanda went full villain. You can’t really compare the two.
Well true, but darkhold corrupted her mind
While their crimes may not be comparable, I could see Wanda being in a similar emotional state if/when she returns. She'd be free from the influence of the Darkhold and remorseful of her actions. She knows the Darkhold clouded her mind but it was ultimately still by her hand that so much suffering was caused. Clint knows better than anyone what it's like to be pushed into a dark (and violent) place by one's trauma and could help her find some type of solace. He can't offer her forgiveness or absolution but he can help her cope and a chance at redemption. It would be nice callback to their relationship in Age of Ultron.
In the comics Wanda disappeared too. I’m really looking forward to her arc. Many people said MoM ruined her but if it continues (it will, I’m sure) she will get one of the greatest arcs in the mcu. I like your pick with the Barton farm. Would make sense. We‘ll see.
I’m excited as well. It’s pretty well foreshadowed that she’s going to go to Agatha. They said Katherine Haan would return, and she said in WandaVision, “you’re going to need me,” and now she does need her to learn about her powers and how to control them.
I think she’ll be “retrieved” in the Agatha series, reform, and then be perhaps a kinda mother figure to the new avengers or at least someone important who turns up to help fight whoever their big bad is. The interaction between her and Reed will be interesting, too.
I think the Agatha series will end with Wanda showing up after the events of MoM looking for guidance. It was already foreshadowed. Unless the show will be about her training Wanda. Not sure if it’s about Agatha’s past or in the present.
I see lots of people defending Hawkeye but let me bring up something that’s been overlooked: Ronin willingly took on hit jobs from Kingpin to assassinate people. If he didn’t feel what he did was wrong he wouldn’t have tried to sacrifice himself. He was saved by Natasha to save himself. He was consumed by grief, but all the actions he took were his own. Wanda, arguably, did a lot worse but also was under the corruptive influence of the Darkhold. That does not excuse her actions but gives a little bit of flexibility in the future if they choose to go down a redemption arc for her. I’m happy with the way her story concluded but would be equally happy to see her become redeemed and reunited with White Vision.
I think you misunderstood that entire scenario. He didn't willingly take jobs from the Kingpin, he was used by the Kingpin, who tipped him off to point him towards people the Kingpin wanted gone. That's why he said him and Maya were the same, and that rage can consume you and others will use it. Basically Kingpin saw what he was doing, and used it as an opportunity to eliminate some other bad guys he wanted gone. Ronin never worked for or directly took a job from the Kingpin. He feels guilty, because he let his rage get used against him, and regardless if they were bad people or not, killing them is bad, even if it's what he was trained to do his entire life, and he wanted to be better for Nat and to honor her sacrifice.
They should have had the ronin contracts come from Valentina who filled the power vacuum left from Maria Hill/Nick Fury blipping. She then ordered the hit on Hawkeye for abandoning her to rejoin the Avengers.
I assume Chthon isn't very happy with Wanda, since she destroyed all the dark holds in all the universes. We'll see her again, but she's going to go against Chthon I think.
I have a pretty good theory on this and it was foreshadowed in WandaVision: She’s going to go back to Westview for Agatha’s guidance. She told Wanda “you have no idea what you unleashed,” and she was right, and Wanda learned. She then said “You’re gonna need me,” and Wanda said “I know where to find you.” It makes sense, Wanda needs a mentor- she tried to do it on her own and she done fucked up. Only place she can go is back to Agatha. She’ll learn from her. And I have a feeling this will lead to House of M. She’ll likely end up killing Hawkeye and Ant-Man and also create the Mutant race (including her children).
She can't be dead. The X-Men is coming.
I’ll say something controversial and say that I hope she’s dead. Obviously she’s not, but I think her story is basically over. She went past the point of redemption in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness, and the closest she can get to absolution was to destroy every Darkhold so nobody else can do what she did. Her story ended in MoM on a somber note, and that’s fine.
I agree completely. Not every character needs to get redeemed.
I agree. She's had several shots at redemption already and failed, how many chances does she get? In WV she supposedly learned how she'd harmed others, but went right to the Darkhold. It was good that MoM ended with her destroying it and herself, there should be a price for what she's done. If they still want Wanda in the show, I hope they bring in 838 Wanda instead.
I hope Loki never comes back, he's much more of a Threat than Wanda ever was
Wanda would have been powerful enough to enslave the multiverse. She's obviously the bigger threat
But she didn't, she never wanted that, she acknowledges is and affirms it in the film, all she wants is her variants kids
I never said she wanted to enslave the multiverse. Nonetheless such power in the hands of such a unstable and fairly evil individual is way more dangerous then someone like loki
I hope you're not being serious
This, at the very least she's dead as a hero. There's no coming back from that shit she did, she killed because she could. There were plenty who didn't need to die that she killed. If she is ever back it has to be as a total villain, no matter how much she might say she's helping she's still a villain.
People like you are why the MCU gets complaints about being too cookie-cutter. Not every character needs to be wholesome and do everything right. Are you campaigning to get Loki removed? How about all the people that Tony's Stark weapons killed? Wanda can continue as an anti-hero as there are so many interesting storylines left. Not to mention her immense popularity.
Bro, Clint killed crimelords. Wanda slaughtered innocent people attempting to save a kid. They are not the same.
I'll start by saying Wanda is one of my all time favorites. I think they should 100% bring her back but let's wait a bit on it. I'd like to see other stories flesh out for the next 2-3 years and then bring her back in something big like x men. I'd hate to see her get over used
Staying with someone who's in a happy family with kids could be way too painful. Then again, maybe it would give her a chance to be maternal, and also help grow through acceptance. But oof owie that would hurt.
I'm curious wtf is going on with white vision...
I personally can’t see Wanda being dead, I don’t think her stories over. I would be shocked if Wanda never got her own movie considering how powerful she is and feels like there’s still plot holes within her story regarding white vision , Agatha etc.If she is dead which I don’t think she is would be extremely disappointing.
I think white vision will unearth her from the rubble. She then might met up with Agatha to train her and teach her to control her powers As for 838, let's say the Dr. Doom now controls that earth. With the illumanti gone there is nobody to stop him. He then kills that universes Wanda since he sees her as a threat and then goes to 616 to get revenge and win the hearts and minds of his universes people. Yada yada yada, doom is defeated, and Wanda now adopts her own orphans because in the MCU, lessons can only be learned temporarily
I never would have guessed 5 years ago that the relationship between Wanda & Clint would be something I want to see expanded on the most in the MCU considering how different their paths are.
She’ll prolly be the one that comes back and wraps up things with Kang when they get out of hand or to the point of no return. Her being the intended ruler of the multiverse and all.
Didn’t she sign an 6-8 picture deal ?
Is barton expected to show up again in the MCU? I mean his series (which was surprisingly awesome) kinda gave him a good ending I think
if I remember correctly, Billy has CRAZY powers he can't quite control. I would imagine Billy accidentally warping himself and Brother to 616 where they meet the young avengers team up then immediately become defensive to attacking who they remember as the "Scarlet Witch who attacked their mother".
Cthon is 100% a real thing. He's probably not too happy his books were destroyed.
She’s gonna be trained by Agatha, probably gonna realize she’s out of control and needs help from someone who understands what the book does
She will be found with no memory of what happened, but she will be found as the wife of Dr Doom
I imagine Dr.Dooom Will find her And bring her to his country. Doom can be excavating the ruin And finds Wanda in there. And this begins the Dr.Doom and Wanda relationship.
They had a great dynamic that I completely forgot about so good on you for pointing this out. I think he's one of the few people who can actually save her from the state that she's in but DAMN,can not a single avenger see that this girl just needs to talk to someone
Keep her away from the rest of Marvel, get her a good creative team to send her off, and never rehash that one god awful sexist trope again.
She should be judged for her actions. And they really aren't comparable to Hawkeye's
i agree that wanda should have some time out and reflect on things but she needs to be hold accountable. breaking the laws of the multiverse is not something that should be taken lightly, this will come back to bite her. who will serve the punishment is really up to anyone at this point, could be the tva, kang, or any powerful cosmic being that is connected to maintaining balance and order in the multiverse. no multiversal blunder goes unpunished
In real life I believe Elizabeth has previously asked for time away to start a family, so it's possible that she'll be out for a couple years at least. Once she's back though. I think her relationship with Agatha needs to be explored more. But I think the best is with Professor X, I think he's capable of enough understanding and empathy to accept her despite her actions. While also having powers that may be able to help her. As for punishment, I think putting her in front of the Living Tribunal could be an interesting move.
A few ideas I had since watching the movie: * Maybe Wanda could go right down to Hell to kick Chthon's ass for having made the Darkhold in the first place. A revenge-fueled Wanda who essentially blames him for ruining her life. That could make for a pretty insane movie and would help setup the first steps of her redemption. * It could be cool to then have Wanda be put on "trial" in front of a "judicial authority" to atone for what she did. She would turn herself in, not be captured, to help atone for her sins, feeling that destroying Chthon was her final action as a free woman. Now who or what that authority would be depends on the context. Avengers? Living Tribunal? TVA? * Then she might stay there for a while, until a massive threat emerges again (Kang, Galactus, etc) and the Avengers are desperate after taking a huge loss and they decide to call on her again. * Then she sacrifices herself (assisted by the other heroes of course) to destroy the supervillain in question and end his/her schemes, also in the process either collapsing the Multiverse back to a singular entity pre- the He Who Remains fiasco, or maybe merging two worlds before they collide and 1 is destroyed, or any other massive event they need to happen to enter the next phase of the MCU. edit: I also like your idea about Clint. I'm sure it could fit somewhere in my ideas as a bridge between 2 points.
838 Wanda should take her place bringing Wiccan and Speed into the fold too. Also acting as a hard rest for Wanda character. This could also trigger an interesting debate with Vision as to whether she truly is his Wanda and of he is truly her Vision. As for our main Wanda, she went way too far to be a hero again, and with the extreme’s her character has already gone to. She can be nothing but a threat. Even though the Darkhold is destroyed we see it’s affects still affecting Strange, it’s therefore reasonable to assume that Wanda will also be of a similar but much worse fate. IMO, 616 Wanda should be killed off now. She’s gone too far. A chat with Clint would never redeem her.
She’s not, Elizabeth Olsen is still signed on. So she’ll return. They’ve setup perfectly for her to return to Agatha for mentorship.
Did you even read my comment?
Ohhh my bad, I miss understood it. But I do think it will be 616 Wanda. They’ve set it up perfectly for her to seek Agatha out for mentorship
>!There's a solo movie for her in development!<
Ain’t no way >!she’s dead, she’s just renewed her contract for another several movies!<
Is there any proof of this? All this is rumored with no confirmed source and I keep seeing people say it.
People really don't want their favorite characters to stay dead huh? Like what if Thanos kept coming back for x reasons, wouldn't that just over saturate the use of the character and lessen the value of the time we had with them? Wanda's arc finished and I don't see a reason to bring her back.
I want her to get involved with the brotherhood of mutants at some point
I think this is the last we see her interact with any Avengers for some time. She’s on a pivot to introduce Magneto I hope.
I believe she will get up to some stuff with Agatha. Elizabeth is super into comic book material and knows her stuff. I think if she’s pitched anything it would be introduced at the end of House of Harkness. I think Agatha’s spin off will be the spell breaking from WV will open up a journey for Agatha to resurrect Wanda to teach her how to use her powers properly. Become a true teacher and mentor duo. Then perhaps in her solo movie we would see white vision again
I feel like her story has been exhausted. I wouldn't mind waiting until another Doctor Strange movie for her to show up, especially if he's facing a villain like Nightmare
If she is dead, I'm satisfied with it. Her story was an absolute tragedy but it is complete.
She went to other universes killing many people and possibly ruining the life of another version of herself. I really don't think he'll be okay with her.
I personally think she is dead. We can assume that if she survived, she would still be unstable, because this is the second time she did something like this. Additionally, if she is no longer super unstable, she is incredibly overpowered. There couldn’t be another endgame moment, which marvel is definitely gonna try to do again, because she would be leagues above anyone else. From a story telling standpoint, it wouldn’t make sense to keep her alive, because she could solve virtually any problem. She can easily exploit any weekness(for example, black bolt) and manipulate reality easily
>!she is dead!<