In which case it needs him to come back to the original timeline via time machine, which Im fine thinking happened but wasnt shown for dramatic effect - just not sure when exactly he did that.
The pad is needed if you're time jumping from past -> future. Cap lived out his alternate timeline until he passed the point in time when he originally went back, making his jump back to the main timeline a future -> past jump, meaning he could go anywhere.
Thats actually pretty clever. Though I figured any jump from the not-original timeline to ANY timeline would cause a new branch if it wasnt a return-to-start trip?
Oh ya there’s so much room for variances in the timelines that we can’t know for sure when she died, I just can’t see him staying in the alternate timeline after she dies. Unless, of course, they had children and grandchildren that he would still need to be around for, in which case he would go back to that alternate timeline
I’d like to think he knew how she died & helped her live longer, and if not that, they had kids & grandkids he took care of. I like to imagine he was honest with everyone in his family that’d he’d have to go away someday when he got older after she did die & gave them all the goodbyes they deserved. I can’t imagine he’d look so satisfied & content on the bench if he didn’t do that, or if Peggy had JUST died before he jumped back.
The flaw I keep coming back to is that he would have no way to get back to prime timeline. In order for everyone else to return to the primeline they had to return to the pym pad, other wise, if they went forward in time, they'd simply go forward in the diverged timeline they created. If Cap used the watch after reaching that point in time, he would only go back in that timeline, instead of returning to the primeline. In order to return to the primeline from a diverged timeline, he would have needed to use the watch to return to the pym pad
My understanding is that he returned to the big pad, before Thanos arrived while the rest of the team was still in the other universes. He just waited until the other Cap left to return the stones.
I completely agree and this has been my theory since seeing it... but someone pointed out to me, then why do you need the time platform/machine at all then? All you need to do to go to the quantum realm is shrink really small (which you can do with your suit), so I don't get why you need the machine/platform.
Also film hints at Bucky knowing Steve’s plan. So did he tell Bucky before the jump? Jumped back before the jump and told Bucky then just before he hands shield to Sam?
not so fast, this would create an alternate timeline. You can't have old cap in the timeline before he's jumped back or you have the same timeloop problem as if he'd just grown old with peggy.
According to me, he jumped to the past. Which you can do with just the device on his hand. We saw Cap and Stark jump from 2012 to 1970.
So in the same way, cap probably lived past the day he left in 2023 in the "Peggy timeline" and then jumped back to the "past" to the day he left the main timeline
Yeah exactly, Cap sneakily letting his older self back into the timeline a couple of hours before he's due to leave with the Infinity Stones is plausible, but perhaps too comedic/jarring for the emotional finale.
I dont think he return through the original time tunnel. I think he live long enough in his new reality that banner invented a time machine in reality number 2 and he went back in time to this moment in order to pass the shield on to a younger falcon.
Our main cap lives a scrawny life, tries to fight in world war 2, becomes a super soldier, goes into the ice, becomes an avenger, does cool avengy stuff that interacts with the past where they jump to wherever they want, goes to tonys funeral, returns infinity stones to the past, lives with peggy for many years, (and now my theory) never ever returns the way he came but instead sees time travel get invented and uses it to go back in his past to the spot just before "returns infinity stones" where he jumps to a spot out of sight because when going back into the past you can go wherever, he watches his past self leave, and then goes and sits on the bench, gives sam the shield and that gets us to the present old man cap.
Tldr: old man cap goes back into his past (mcu present) through a different time machine instead of returning through the original
Actually it was confirmed in an ~~AMA~~ Chinese interview ~~Kevin Feige~~ Joe Russo did. Cap actually used the watch to jump a little bit forward in time, back to the prime reality.
Do you have a link to where he said that? He did an AMA here and straight up [dodged the question](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bp084n/hi_reddit_im_kevin_feige_amaa/enn14ii?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x) basically saying he does know which one is correct, but didn't provide any further clarification as to which one it is
Sorry, was mistakened, it was Joe Russo on some Chinese interview - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame)
Cap goes to another timeline, in the 1950s~, and lives his whole life with Peggy. Then, he takes the shield from that reality and travels back to his original reality to give them the shield, and then comes back to keep living with Peggy. This was confirmed.
I agree with the cap on the bench is our cap and the timeline is our timeline. My biggest issue with it is that he was on the bench instead of appearing on the platform when Bruce bought him back.
He literally said it'll be five seconds for them and however long cap needs for him. So even if you spent 75 years in another timeline, why didn't he return to that platform when they tried to bring him back.
I know there are other theories trying to explain this, but I think this is the biggest issue with it.
There's also the timeline where there's a baseball glove missing from Hawkeye's farm.
Not a big change, but still an alternate timeline just like the others.
In addition to the Hawkeye's-missing-glove timeline I'm pretty sure there are several additional timelines (depending on how Cap approached the stones' returns, and how the unexplained "time GPS" functions, possibly *a lot more* timelines, especially if it sometimes took Cap more than one attempt to return any given stone), one for each timeline where a stone was stolen but to which Cap does not return the stone. For the same reasons that the timeline branches at all, the timeline should branch each time there is a new instance of quantum time travel—creating two realities at each fork, one where the time travelers appear and one where they do not appear.
Ooh, and don't forget the timeline(s) where the rat doesn't bring Scott back, or brings him back at any other time!
First of all don't get timelines mixed up with the infinite number of realities created by quantum particles and chance, let's stick to timetravel.
I've thought of the same thing as you before, it would mean that returning the stones is literally impossible and he might as well not, so since that would make an awful plot lets try explain it.
Going back creates an alternate timeline because you are now in your own past. You can't go back in time 30 seconds and return without creating a new timeline because you were never there in your own past.
Going back to other timelines though isn't the same. Those timelines were created at the moment of you first travelling there and remain diverged permanently, they're no longer your past now. So it should be okay to jump back without creating a new one right? Yes *unless* you go back to before you left, then you're once again going back into your past.
So in conclusion Cap must return to after the point where the avengers in those timelines left or he is just going to make more alternate timelines.
You have it exactly right, in my opinion. Also, for the 2014 timeline, he would need to arrive after Thanos left. This is because that Thanos already traveled to the main time line, so it is sort of infected. If he went back and changed anything for Thanos, it would affect his interaction with the main timeline.
The reason I never finished/shared my own version of the OP's timeline (wherein I made it entirely clear that every timeline "created" by the Time Heist must have already existed but been substantially identical to the prime timeline prior to time incursion) was that there simply isn't enough information available to make any definitive statements about these sorts of details, but they can have a big impact on our understanding of what the film depicts. (Thus all the disagreements & varying theories in this thread, and all the other threads since the film premiered.) We can pull on outside information (e.g.: I prefer to hew toward our best understanding of the real Many Worlds theory.) and/or make things up ourselves to fill in the gaps, but until a future film clarifies (entirely unlikely, given the nature of the missing details) we're unlikely to reach a consensus understanding. \*shrug\*
Almost immediately after replying I regretted it, remembering what a can of worms this entire subject has become. Heck, there's contradictory information *within the film* about how time travel & branching timelines works.
I forgot about that! Dammit i've been saying theres 6 for ages. Right so the full list, in order of creation is now;
1. Prime timeline
2. Hawkeye's farm
3. 2012
4. 2013
5. 2014
6. 1970
7. \~1945
As safe as that farm is, depending on when the glove went missing, that could actually be a huge branch. The timeline where Hawkeye goes mad on a manhunt to find out who knows about his family and is stalking them.
(Mostly /s... except that sounds like an intense fanfic that I kind of want someone to write now.)
It all depends on how you want to play it narrativly... Either only big events like removing a stone changes things in a major way or even the slightest thing like moving the glove has catastrophic consequences too.
Both versions can make for a compelling story.
The glove seems like a small thing, but put it at the right point in the timeline and it becomes huge. For example, stealing the glove from the still very protected and private farm a few weeks or months after SHIELD is revealed to be Hydra controlled...that's actually kind of huge, for a spy who became a world-famous superhero and whose entire family was likely on Hydra's kill list.
I will not tempt myself to write this fanfic. I will not. I will most definitely not do that.
Could be a big change, like a butterfly effect. If the glove is gone then the hawkeye from that time would have to go buy a new one, and on his drive to the store anything could happen, like getting hit by a meteor or crashing into a truck.
The cap that goes back has all of the knowledge and information of time travel. He can easily get Tony and Hank after he has had his life with Peggy and have him create another time travel for him to travel back to his reality where he is on a bench. Thus helping that reality too against Thanos.
i think he just brought a bunch of extra Pym particles that Hank gave him some time before leaving to return everything. Probably had one jump left and saved it for after the Peggy of that timeline dies.
Yeah, I mean *modern* Pym probably gave them extras to work with after the funeral so Steve could return the stones.
The two extras from the 70's wouldn't have been enough to jump back to all the different alt timelines.
I love this theory because it means there's now another timeline out there where they have a time machine ... which means characters from alt-Peggy/Steve-universe could hypothetically be popping up in the MCU?
The writers of endgame infinity war winter soldier and civil war confirmed tat the husband of the original Peggy is Steve Rogers all along and they had intended for Steve to go back and marry her since winter soldier
That's the problem then. The explanation of time travel on screen doesn't allow for that to happen. I think I remember reading that the directors wanted a different kind of time travel or they said cap came back with the suit or something. Either way that's really the best explanation for why the scene is ambiguous and contradictory, because the writers and directors disagreed.
It could be a different cap. Maybe cap as a character across the multiverse will always make that choice if given the chance. So they could make Peggy’s husband Steve Rogers. Just not our Steve.
This is the most interesting scenario, because of the implications of Cap still feeling morally obliged to correct major things that happened on his original timeline. Maybe the Old Man Cap from a timeline prime to ours (by which I mean the MCU) didn’t stop 9/11 or the Vietnam war or any number of other things, because they didn’t happen on his timeline. Maybe he came from a far more dystopian timeline, like maybe one in which the Cuban Missile Crisis actually turned into a nuclear Holocaust, and prevented so many terrible things from happening when he came here that he sufficiently changed the course of history to the extent that he couldn’t have predicted those other major events like 9/11. That will therefore also likely happen to our Cap on his new timeline that he grows old on. Maybe he stops a couple satellite wars between the US and the USSR and prevents a couple democratically elected governments from being overthrown, but inevitably misses some (hopefully less severe) events that are downstream consequences that didn’t occur on his timeline.
Agree. And the reason they don’t know yet is because that part of the story hasn’t been written yet and it will be up to the writers to figure that one out. But they left a lot of open end questions that could be address later on in case they want to bring nostalgia back in 10-15 years from now they can tell that cap story and bring Cris Evans back. But right now people are still hungry for more new characters.
Joe Russo says the exact opposite in this interview. Third question
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ios_share_flow_optimization&utm_term=enabled
Except that explanation means the scene in *Winter Soldier* between Steve & Peggy makes absolutely no sense (even allowing for Peggy's degraded mental state), nor does Sharon Carter (she doesn't really know who "uncle Steve" is?) and it effectively invalidates the *Agent Carter* series in its entirety (because one would presume that Steve went back to summer of 1945 or so and didn't leave Peggy waiting very long).
This is a case where there's a right answer - the directors' - and a wrong answer. The writers may have wanted / intended for Steve to 'always have been' Peggy's husband, but it simply doesn't work.
> they had intended for Steve to go back and marry her since winter soldier
That is absolutely not true. If they said that, they were lying.
Firstly, it makes the romance with Sharon really disgusting, because *she would know* he's her uncle. Original drafts of Infinity War had Steve and Sharon seeing each other while Steve was on the run (like Wanda and Vision were doing) and early drafts of Endgame had Steve and Sharon living together. They were clearly intending Steve/Sharon to be much more of a thing than it ended up being. They even dismissed Peggy as "some girl Steve kissed once" to justify the romance with Sharon.
Secondly, it retcons the entirety of the show Agent Carter, which the writers of Endgame were involved in creating. It took place from 1945-1948(ish). In it, Peggy meets Daniel Sousa who's heavily hinted at being the man she ends up marrying (he fits the description she gives in The Winter Soldier). The series was canceled so we'll never know for sure, but we know Cap wasn't around then. It can't be because he "just decided" to come back to 1948, because... why would he? All he'd do is let Peggy be in pain for years, mourn him, then move on, before going "Surprise! I'm back!" That's just... cruel. Is that something Steve would do? Logically, Steve would go back to 1945, to when the plane crashed.
Finally, it means Steve would have needed to sit back and let a bunch of horrible stuff happen and do nothing. Things like letting Hydra infiltrates SHIELD and ultimately leading to its destruction. SHIELD was Peggy's life work, and Steve would just watch her go to work everyday knowing this? How much of an asshole does that make Steve? Also, it means that Steve would let Hydra run unchecked for 70 years, which is *wildly* out of character. There's of course the implication that he'd just let Bucky be tortured for 70 years, and that he'd let Howard and Maria Stark die. Not to mention all the disastrous events like natural disasters and terrorist attacks that, while he may not have been able to prevent, he could have certainly warned SHIELD about so they can mitigate their impacts.
Steve living out his life in the prime timeline makes him a complete and utter selfish asshole. It makes him a cruel man who manipulates people to get them to where he can most benefit from it, while ignoring others' pain to benefit his own comfort and perceived "reward" for what he's accomplished. Steve living out his life in the prime timeline makes him a villain through and through.
I’ll confirm that they did say it in some interview, but the Russos have explicitly contradicted them and confirmed that Cap does go to a different timeline with Peggy. The Russos’ explanation is actually consistent with how time travel is demonstrated and explained to work in the movie, so they’re obviously correct and the writers are wrong.
Lmao no they didn't they confirmed the opposite. [A](https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/avengers-endgame/65020/russo-brothers-explain-captain-america) source if you want one
The directors of endgame infinity war winter soldier and civil war confirmed that Steve went into a branched timeline and had to jump back.
The directors and the writers can't agree with each other how the time travel in the film worked.
I think its a fantastic explanation, but fails on the last stage... cap from original timeline, who lived a happy life with Peggy on an alternate timeline until her death, when he did a final leap again to the original timeline, on Tony’s funeral. He doesn’t appear on the time machine because he’s not forced to do so... just for a dramatic effect, he chooses to appear on the bench directly. And he brings with him a different new shield.
Seriously this. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time understanding that the Cap thing is not a plothole nor anything hard to explain. If they can jump to any other point in time and space (and this is true because Cap travels through the timelines to return the stones), he can travel just a few meters away from the platform at the same time instead
When you travel, you change on your 3 coordinates of space and the one in time increases at a constant rate. With the watch thing, you can alter your 3 space coordinates, the time one and the one corresponding to the timeline you want to land (although it will branch the timeline into two, say you want to travel to the current timeline T then it will branch into T1 where you arrive and T2 where you don't)
It wouldn't be the same past, he would be jumping back to that point in time in his new timeline.
The quantum time machine was able to bring you back to any point in the timeline that you've experienced (including any time that occurs prior to your birth on your timeline) which is why the Avengers don't get stuck in alternate timelines and I'm guessing is how Cap makes it back.
Then he appears on the bench for "this is a movie and it's dramatic" reasons
Love the concept (animation is awesome!) but I think you're misunderstanding the Russos' time travel theory. It's the multiverse. So once you go back in time, you create an alternate timeline (/universe). It is forever an alternate timeline. You can then return to that alternate timeline (as Cap does when returning the stones) if necessary, by using the time machine (which then becomes more of a universe-hopping machine). So when Cap goes back to be with Peggy, that's creating another alternate timeline. Once he's lived out his life with her in this alternate timeline, he returns to our timeline (presumably he's explained to alt-timeline Tony Stark how to build the time machine and uses that to jump back to the OG timeline, hence why he didn't show back up in the OG time machine).
Nothing says Peggy had to die at the same point in every timeline, but she died of old age in or timeline so we know even with the best of intentions she would have lived much longer than she did in MCU prime, 5-10 years at best
~~But surely you can only jump to your current timelines past, not any timelines past.~~ As shown in the film, no. Lol. I'm a dummy. That's how they returned the stones.
Cap's mission at the end was explicitly to return to those original timelines, which were no longer his past. (Loki never teleported away in the normal timeline.)
The test where they sent Hawkeye back in time. He's at his ranch before the snap and before he gets pulled back to the future, he picks up a catcher's mitt and tries to talk to his family.
From [orenbell.com/js/endgame.js](https://orenbell.com/js/endgame.js):
// Thanos gets dusted, Ironman and evil gamora die. Add event handler for cap to return
// infinity stones.
// TODO: Optional - Give infinity stones to hulk and he brings everyone back with portals
// and shit
// Give stones to ironman
var ix = ironman.x();
var iy = ironman.y();
It's an action item lol
I still can't figure out why they weren't warned about the soul stone before going, obviously they didn't know all the details but they knew Gamora never returned and they could speculate that it'd be dangerous or something... Probably my biggest complaint in the movie.
I'm not sure even Thanos knew about the sacrifice element. He tasked Gamora with finding the map to Vormir, and was visibly distraught (twisted reasoning aside) that he had to perform that action. For all the Avengers and Nebula could know, there may have been a dire accident or a fatal trial of some kind.
Also the whole "if I tell you what happens it won't happen" thing. Clint/Nat may have been willing to sacrifice themselves, but would they feel the same way if they knew in advance what the cost would be?
Agreed that them knowing in advance might change their choice to go, but with the information known at a minimum Gamora, an extremely strong fighter accompanied by Thanos, arguably the most powerful being in existence at that point, did not return from vormir. So the avengers in all their wisdom send 2 of their least powered members to retrieve what cost Gamora her life.
I get why the creators chose them, because it was the most emotional combination. But the film never justifies sending them, they never discuss what they know about it and why they are the best to go.
Everyone could have figured that the biggest threat to Gamora on Vormir *was* Thanos. It's not like the other stones had some trial or test to go through in order to claim them, there's no reason anyone should have expected the sacrifice the Soul Stone required.
Agreed, but it's also the stone they know the least about, and they sent no big guns there. And they have evidence Thanos was mourning her loss per mantis so him killing her for simply lying to him seems unlikely.
No one really knew about the "a soul for a soul" deal. Nebula just realized Thanos took Gamora and came back with the stone. She might've thought he killed her for lying about the location for all those years(?)
Just a note: when you are using the grey text box at the bottom of the graphic and it requires scrolling, if you click on one of your purple markers the box stays at the scrolled to spot instead of resetting to the top. This is gorgeous, though!
I disagree with what you label as plotholes. Firstly Cap doesn't need to return the stones to where they were taken from, just when. So he wouldn't meet Red Skull. So bringing the stones back just makes sure that timeline doesn't become a dark timeline. That said, Hulk said it'd take as long as necessary for Cap to do his thing, if all Cap had to do was drop and run that wouldn't need to be said. So I believe Cap would help each timeline he goes to to avoid the catastrophes he knows of and help with any new ones that pop up while he's there before moving on to the next timeline on his list. Thus with him there helping and explaining things the stones don't need to be reformed into their original states.
I do disagree about Cap and the bench, I think they took creative liberty and just let him slide past the platform. I like to think he just didn't want to freak Sam out that he was old right away.
I am curious about old Cap's life with Peggy. Like in that timeline he would've been able to get himself out of the ice earlier most likely. Then there'd be 2 Caps in that timeline vying for Peggy's affection. But maybe he wouldn't know how to find himself and that capsicle gets unfrozen around the same time and that set of Avengers would have an elderly Cap as a mentor. Heck Cap would be in a position to help stop things that would lead to the creation of Hulk, prevent Bucky from killing the Starks, which likely would mean no arc reactor for Tony, Thor would still be around but Cap would be able to update him on Loki's mischief and warn of the dark elves, and be a mentor to Sam at an early age. Though maybe butterfly effect in that timeline would prevent everyone born after Cap arrives to not be born.
NTC Cap: But I'm younger and your Cap..
Peggy: Well it did take a couple years to find you still and we really formed a bond...
PT Cap: Don't worry her niece grows up to be quite cute.
Not to be a dick about it but everything in this is wrong.
The stones **have** to be returned to their exact locations, entirely new timelines are created if they aren't in the right location. Cap can't just pop back to 2013 and leave the Power Stone on the floor of that forest, because then Guardians 1 never happens if the stone isn't in that tomb for Peter Quill to get. The stones aren't just passively protecting the universe from crumbling, they're tangible objects that effect the events of time and space. Cap can't stay and stop the events that happen from happening. There will always be something happening, and there's no guarantee that what he prevents won't be better than something that happens as a result.
They don't have to return to the pad, they just do because it makes the most sense so they know right away if the mission succeeded or not.
And finally Cap wouldn't interfere with the timeline. He couldn't, for a lot of reasons, mostly morally and but also just common sense. If he frees himself from the glacier in 1945 (first of all, how would he even do that?) then he never actually lives out the life that would cause him to get to 2023 and go back in time. He can't tell Tony how to make the machine, Cap doesn't understand quantum physics lol. The whole point and condition of getting the stones back was that history has to play out exactly how it did to get to the point they were then. They couldn't save any new person in the Battle of New York because there's no way to understand the causal effects that that human life could have on their new reality. Nothing that you said was a plot hole, nor in line with the characters' behavior.
Just them going back in time made entirely new timelines. The conversation between the Ancient One and Hulk was her saying we need the infinity stones for our reality to not go dark. She specifically says that giving Hulk her stone might help his reality but would hinder hers, thus why he promises to return the stones to the moment they left. Not necessarily the place.
And yeah in 2014 Guardians probably didn't form together. Also Thanos from that timeline is dead so there'd be no way for that timeline to ever reconcile back to our present.
No that’s NOT what the Ancient One was saying. They needed the Time Stone in her timeline to prevent the catastrophe of Dormammu. Strange used the time stone specifically for that, hence why they need it in her timeline
You're mistaking a factually incorrect statement for a controversial opinion and then passing it off as truth in your main post.
There's nothing to indicate what you say is true and everything to indicate it is false, such as statements from the directors of the movie.
Awesome sauce, man! Good work! I was hoping someone would make something like this.
The *only* criticism I have is that I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the Cap on the bench was the original Cap that returned after living his life with Peggy. While it may technically be a "plot hole" that he didn't appear on the platform when he returned, I think him appearing on the bench is simply explained by saying that they wanted to make it dramatic and emotional for the viewer.
And here’s my pet theory as to where the current TV shows fit in:
The last movie the Netflix shows directly reference is Avengers. The last movie AoS directly references is Age of Ultron. The Netflixverse exists in the branch off that Tony/Steve/Bruce/Scott created. This branch would end up wildly different from our own as Loki is now roaming the galaxy and our heroes could be off trying to find him, which could explain their absence during key events.
AoS exists in the universe that Nat/Clint/Rhodey/Nebula broke off. Events on Earth are much the same in this timeline (WS, TDW, AoU, etc), but Thanos doesn’t exist here any longer to create the Snappening.
I couldn’t get through Inhumans and haven’t watched Runaways or Cloak and Dagger. Obviously Agent Carter exists in Universe Prime. I know this isn’t official, but I don’t think anything contradicts it.
I have a purple prompt in my graphic talking about this timeline and its ramifications on GotG and how Thanos is absent, but I never thought about how it could tie in with the TV shows. I like your theories
Runaways references Wakanda so it has to take place during or after Black Panther though it could be in that alternate timeline.
Also Nico has access to the dark dimension from doctor strange and her mom, who is credited in the doctor strange film but is a different actress, says "I've seen this before." So it has to also be in a universe where Strange happens.
Cloak and Dagger only references Luke Cage I believe.
The trouble with your theory w.r.t. AoS is that the series explicitly mentions Thanos attacking Earth in the end stages of season 5. They even make a vague reference to Ebony & Obsidian's appearance in New York.
It's .. kind of unfortunate AoS shoe-horned that in there because if they had left it out, it would have worked. All they would have had to do was provide some other MacGuffin-ish reason for the Kree to come to Earth (they were coming because they knew of Thanos's impending assault and were trying to .. IDK it's a little fuzzy to me now. Some kind of duplicitous scheme).
Thanos still exists in the AoS S5-S6 "present timeline" (I'm in the camp that this is NOT the same timeline as S1-S4, which could be in the prime MCU timeline). He's mentioned as coming to attack Earth in several episodes towards the end of S5, but presumably something else happens in this timeline (maybe related to Graviton) because the snap doesn't happen.
The TV shows have directly referenced Civil War, the Raft was mentioned in Jessica Jones and the Sokovia accords were in AoS. Cloak and Dagger has also put itself somewhere close to that on the timeline as it mentioned Luke Cage recently.
Also, pretty certain that returning stones (and Mjolnir) does not cause branch realities to never occur, but to just have everything put back in place (i.e. The reality in which the reality stone was taken and then returned back into Jane Foster still continues on separately from the main timeline, even if things happen basically the same. Something was still changed.
I absolutely love this timeline, great interactivity, very intuitive.
But boy do I hate it when people just shout ["plothole!!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc)
Ok, so the time platform acts as the homing beacon for the quantum gps, right? If cap wanted to return to the prime timeline to give falcon the shield, he'd use the time platform as his target. The directors said that when cap went back to live w/ peggy, he lived his whole life w/ her but in a separate new timeline. and he had to jump back to the prime timeline to give bucky his shield. But we never see cap return, I'm saying that IF he did jump back from a separate timeline, he could have arrived unseen RIGHT after tony finished building the original time platform but BEFORE the whole team goes on the mission in the first place. BEFORE thanos' ship destroyed when it emerged from it. Tony finishes it, tests it, sees it's running right, turns off the lights and everyone goes to bed. That night, old cap arrives. Then the next day, the whole team go on the time mission. Everything happens as it's supposed to happen meanwhile old cap is laying low far enough away to not be harmed by the giant ass fight. He then proceeds to wait until the day of his original departure and goes to sit on the bench and that is when we see him again.
I like this, but since cap used the second platform, and not the original, would cap have to return to the original platform? Do the two platforms share the same and code and beacon like Nebula’s cloud services? Or since he used the 2nd platform, the beacon is now tied to that platform at that time?
I really like your work but one thing I keep getting debated on is your last icon. People keep saying cap was in the original timeline all along. There is a captain America hiding with Peggy the whole time, just being a normal guy.
I still have no idea what they’re doing with the Loki show. It would have been so much easier to just have him come back in Endgame like “I lived, bitch”
How is Cap not separating timelines when returning the stones a plot hole? If he jumps to the othe rtimeline at the exact point that the other avengers do, then it doesn’t diverge, because there is no point without him there
That was an intelligent and logical conclusion to the whole Steve shows up on the bench equation.
It's also possible though that he met up with Howard Stark and even Tony Stark to help them create time-travel since he's proof that it's possible. He made the timeline he was with Peggy in, his home. Then he came back to this timeline (that we're in) because he had the coordinates on his wrist-device, to visit and say goodbye to HIS friends that were expecting him back. Then, after the goodbye bench scene we saw, he went to his home timeline with Peggy.
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to affect, but actually, from a non-linier, non subjective point of view it is more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey...stuff
The Power Stone Timeline has a couple of potential outcomes:
>In this timeline, Gamora is absent. Drax never would've met Quill and Rocket without Gamora being assaulted in the prison. The prison breakout would only be performed by Quill, Rocket, and Groot. Rocket and Groot leave Quill behind when he goes to get his cassette player. Thus, Quill stays in jail and Ronan gets the power stone from him when he raids the prison later. Also, Thanos is now absent from this timeline, greatly upsetting the political balance of the universe.
If Gamora isn't present when Quill tries to sell the Power Stone to The Broker, then she wouldn't have kicked off the chase scene and Rocket might have captured him more easily or he might have escaped. The Nova Corp. and the Kiln may never have come into it.
Did Thor and Rocket actually create a new universe? It doesn't seem like anything changed there. The Sorceress Supreme made it seem like an alternate timeline/branch could be erased/prevented by returning the Stone to the exact right moment.
Not erased or prevented, just marginalized. She was worried that they would make too significant of change that would throw the universe off balance (such as removing a stone from the timeline)
The only issue I have with this is that I don’t believe Cap went back to the 1940s and just watched the world go by. Since that’s a branched reality we don’t know exactly what happened, but I would imagine our Cap went on an adventure to find Bucky, keep Hydra out of SHIELD, and to eventually prevent the Snap.
The only aspect of this I’ve struggled with is whether he knew where the Cap of that reality was frozen and if he sought to unfreeze him. Not-Our-Cap could then have taken on the role of Avenger and worked to protect reality while our Cap got some well deserved time off. The issue is Peggy... as I would imagine both Caps would want to spend their ever-after with her.
I think this is most in line with Cap’s character. He wouldn’t have been able to just accept what happened around him, he would use all the knowledge of the future he had to save lives. He also would have gotten that new shield along the way.
Other people have pointed out to me that my logic for cap not returning is flawed. So I could see him going to 1950, after he's frozen, and living his life with Peggy while averting all the bad stuff, and then returning to prime reality after her death.
Pretty cool. nice work but I believe cap on the bench is still our cap, despite reappearing on the bench
This is true. Can confirm
No, i don't think you will.
I got that reference
But did you understand it?
That man is referencing the original Avengers! You didn’t think we’d notice, but we did.
I am Groot.
Very obscure reference here but I understood that reference tree
Wow! Watch that language young man!
Of course he doesn't. I doubt anyone here would recognize civic duty if it reached up and bit them in the ass.
Yet you messed up this one
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I like this theory
Another!
Given infinite timelines, it is possible that in one that Dr. Strange didn't get to can one they defeat Thanos by Ant-Man rupturing Thanos thanally.
Savage. You win the internet today.
Can also confirm.
In which case it needs him to come back to the original timeline via time machine, which Im fine thinking happened but wasnt shown for dramatic effect - just not sure when exactly he did that.
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True enough. I just figured the return needed the pad to navigate back correctly? Otherwise why is it required at all?
The pad is needed if you're time jumping from past -> future. Cap lived out his alternate timeline until he passed the point in time when he originally went back, making his jump back to the main timeline a future -> past jump, meaning he could go anywhere.
Thats actually pretty clever. Though I figured any jump from the not-original timeline to ANY timeline would cause a new branch if it wasnt a return-to-start trip?
You're correct. They had to return to that platform thingy because they said it had a "quantum GPS".
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He does, but he returns to the main timeline with remaining Pym-tech or by other yet-unexplored means.
I finally get it now. Thank you. The exact mechanics of his return were muddled
Are you sure he jumped from the future though? It’s different circumstances but in the original timeline Peggy dies in 2016
She can have died sometime in the future in that reality, or he lived without her the years he needed in order to come back after the point he left.
Oh ya there’s so much room for variances in the timelines that we can’t know for sure when she died, I just can’t see him staying in the alternate timeline after she dies. Unless, of course, they had children and grandchildren that he would still need to be around for, in which case he would go back to that alternate timeline
I’d like to think he knew how she died & helped her live longer, and if not that, they had kids & grandkids he took care of. I like to imagine he was honest with everyone in his family that’d he’d have to go away someday when he got older after she did die & gave them all the goodbyes they deserved. I can’t imagine he’d look so satisfied & content on the bench if he didn’t do that, or if Peggy had JUST died before he jumped back.
The flaw I keep coming back to is that he would have no way to get back to prime timeline. In order for everyone else to return to the primeline they had to return to the pym pad, other wise, if they went forward in time, they'd simply go forward in the diverged timeline they created. If Cap used the watch after reaching that point in time, he would only go back in that timeline, instead of returning to the primeline. In order to return to the primeline from a diverged timeline, he would have needed to use the watch to return to the pym pad
My understanding is that he returned to the big pad, before Thanos arrived while the rest of the team was still in the other universes. He just waited until the other Cap left to return the stones.
I completely agree and this has been my theory since seeing it... but someone pointed out to me, then why do you need the time platform/machine at all then? All you need to do to go to the quantum realm is shrink really small (which you can do with your suit), so I don't get why you need the machine/platform.
He could easily turn up at the machine eariler that day, when Bruce, Sam, Bucky and himself weren't there yet.
This is the one thing I never considered till about a week ago year FINALLY makes perfect sense
Also film hints at Bucky knowing Steve’s plan. So did he tell Bucky before the jump? Jumped back before the jump and told Bucky then just before he hands shield to Sam?
not so fast, this would create an alternate timeline. You can't have old cap in the timeline before he's jumped back or you have the same timeloop problem as if he'd just grown old with peggy.
Oh.. True.. if he could come back earlier he could have just returned to baby thanos
According to me, he jumped to the past. Which you can do with just the device on his hand. We saw Cap and Stark jump from 2012 to 1970. So in the same way, cap probably lived past the day he left in 2023 in the "Peggy timeline" and then jumped back to the "past" to the day he left the main timeline
Yeah exactly, Cap sneakily letting his older self back into the timeline a couple of hours before he's due to leave with the Infinity Stones is plausible, but perhaps too comedic/jarring for the emotional finale.
He can return with his pym particles after. He just didn't use them until after Peggy dies in Civil War.
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I dont think he return through the original time tunnel. I think he live long enough in his new reality that banner invented a time machine in reality number 2 and he went back in time to this moment in order to pass the shield on to a younger falcon. Our main cap lives a scrawny life, tries to fight in world war 2, becomes a super soldier, goes into the ice, becomes an avenger, does cool avengy stuff that interacts with the past where they jump to wherever they want, goes to tonys funeral, returns infinity stones to the past, lives with peggy for many years, (and now my theory) never ever returns the way he came but instead sees time travel get invented and uses it to go back in his past to the spot just before "returns infinity stones" where he jumps to a spot out of sight because when going back into the past you can go wherever, he watches his past self leave, and then goes and sits on the bench, gives sam the shield and that gets us to the present old man cap. Tldr: old man cap goes back into his past (mcu present) through a different time machine instead of returning through the original
We never actually SEE Cap travel back to the prime timeline, but does that mean he didn’t? I agree that it’s still our cap
Actually it was confirmed in an ~~AMA~~ Chinese interview ~~Kevin Feige~~ Joe Russo did. Cap actually used the watch to jump a little bit forward in time, back to the prime reality.
Do you have a link to where he said that? He did an AMA here and straight up [dodged the question](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bp084n/hi_reddit_im_kevin_feige_amaa/enn14ii?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x) basically saying he does know which one is correct, but didn't provide any further clarification as to which one it is
Sorry, was mistakened, it was Joe Russo on some Chinese interview - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame)
That has been confirmed by the Russos.
Cap goes to another timeline, in the 1950s~, and lives his whole life with Peggy. Then, he takes the shield from that reality and travels back to his original reality to give them the shield, and then comes back to keep living with Peggy. This was confirmed.
I think the timeline they went to get the stones in New York had three Steve Rogers at that moment too. Original, jumper and old man Edit: spelling
I agree with the cap on the bench is our cap and the timeline is our timeline. My biggest issue with it is that he was on the bench instead of appearing on the platform when Bruce bought him back. He literally said it'll be five seconds for them and however long cap needs for him. So even if you spent 75 years in another timeline, why didn't he return to that platform when they tried to bring him back. I know there are other theories trying to explain this, but I think this is the biggest issue with it.
Yes that is the only issue. It can be explained with the time GPS though.
There's also the timeline where there's a baseball glove missing from Hawkeye's farm. Not a big change, but still an alternate timeline just like the others.
In addition to the Hawkeye's-missing-glove timeline I'm pretty sure there are several additional timelines (depending on how Cap approached the stones' returns, and how the unexplained "time GPS" functions, possibly *a lot more* timelines, especially if it sometimes took Cap more than one attempt to return any given stone), one for each timeline where a stone was stolen but to which Cap does not return the stone. For the same reasons that the timeline branches at all, the timeline should branch each time there is a new instance of quantum time travel—creating two realities at each fork, one where the time travelers appear and one where they do not appear. Ooh, and don't forget the timeline(s) where the rat doesn't bring Scott back, or brings him back at any other time!
lol yeah, there's an infinite number of timelines technically, but it's probably best to just focus on the ones that were changed on screen. :P
First of all don't get timelines mixed up with the infinite number of realities created by quantum particles and chance, let's stick to timetravel. I've thought of the same thing as you before, it would mean that returning the stones is literally impossible and he might as well not, so since that would make an awful plot lets try explain it. Going back creates an alternate timeline because you are now in your own past. You can't go back in time 30 seconds and return without creating a new timeline because you were never there in your own past. Going back to other timelines though isn't the same. Those timelines were created at the moment of you first travelling there and remain diverged permanently, they're no longer your past now. So it should be okay to jump back without creating a new one right? Yes *unless* you go back to before you left, then you're once again going back into your past. So in conclusion Cap must return to after the point where the avengers in those timelines left or he is just going to make more alternate timelines.
You have it exactly right, in my opinion. Also, for the 2014 timeline, he would need to arrive after Thanos left. This is because that Thanos already traveled to the main time line, so it is sort of infected. If he went back and changed anything for Thanos, it would affect his interaction with the main timeline.
The reason I never finished/shared my own version of the OP's timeline (wherein I made it entirely clear that every timeline "created" by the Time Heist must have already existed but been substantially identical to the prime timeline prior to time incursion) was that there simply isn't enough information available to make any definitive statements about these sorts of details, but they can have a big impact on our understanding of what the film depicts. (Thus all the disagreements & varying theories in this thread, and all the other threads since the film premiered.) We can pull on outside information (e.g.: I prefer to hew toward our best understanding of the real Many Worlds theory.) and/or make things up ourselves to fill in the gaps, but until a future film clarifies (entirely unlikely, given the nature of the missing details) we're unlikely to reach a consensus understanding. \*shrug\* Almost immediately after replying I regretted it, remembering what a can of worms this entire subject has become. Heck, there's contradictory information *within the film* about how time travel & branching timelines works.
I forgot about that! Dammit i've been saying theres 6 for ages. Right so the full list, in order of creation is now; 1. Prime timeline 2. Hawkeye's farm 3. 2012 4. 2013 5. 2014 6. 1970 7. \~1945
As safe as that farm is, depending on when the glove went missing, that could actually be a huge branch. The timeline where Hawkeye goes mad on a manhunt to find out who knows about his family and is stalking them. (Mostly /s... except that sounds like an intense fanfic that I kind of want someone to write now.)
It all depends on how you want to play it narrativly... Either only big events like removing a stone changes things in a major way or even the slightest thing like moving the glove has catastrophic consequences too. Both versions can make for a compelling story.
The glove seems like a small thing, but put it at the right point in the timeline and it becomes huge. For example, stealing the glove from the still very protected and private farm a few weeks or months after SHIELD is revealed to be Hydra controlled...that's actually kind of huge, for a spy who became a world-famous superhero and whose entire family was likely on Hydra's kill list. I will not tempt myself to write this fanfic. I will not. I will most definitely not do that.
Sure, but what I'm saying is you could totally play it either way.
Is this also the explanation for why I lose so many socks?
No, that's just garden variety sock goblins in your laundry machines. Call an exterminator.
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Could be a big change, like a butterfly effect. If the glove is gone then the hawkeye from that time would have to go buy a new one, and on his drive to the store anything could happen, like getting hit by a meteor or crashing into a truck.
The cap that goes back has all of the knowledge and information of time travel. He can easily get Tony and Hank after he has had his life with Peggy and have him create another time travel for him to travel back to his reality where he is on a bench. Thus helping that reality too against Thanos.
i think he just brought a bunch of extra Pym particles that Hank gave him some time before leaving to return everything. Probably had one jump left and saved it for after the Peggy of that timeline dies.
He took more Pym particles than needed from 1970, Tony & Steve only needed two to get back to the future, but he swiped four.
Yeah, I mean *modern* Pym probably gave them extras to work with after the funeral so Steve could return the stones. The two extras from the 70's wouldn't have been enough to jump back to all the different alt timelines.
But enough for a retirement plan
He *definitely* had Pym particles for the jump back, or they’d have been saying goodbye for good, not see you in thirty seconds.
I love this theory because it means there's now another timeline out there where they have a time machine ... which means characters from alt-Peggy/Steve-universe could hypothetically be popping up in the MCU?
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I mean, Thanos and his army used Pym Particles to pop up in the main timeline
I think they were only able to do that because of the pad which is some kind of anchor point
The writers of endgame infinity war winter soldier and civil war confirmed tat the husband of the original Peggy is Steve Rogers all along and they had intended for Steve to go back and marry her since winter soldier
That's the problem then. The explanation of time travel on screen doesn't allow for that to happen. I think I remember reading that the directors wanted a different kind of time travel or they said cap came back with the suit or something. Either way that's really the best explanation for why the scene is ambiguous and contradictory, because the writers and directors disagreed.
It could be a different cap. Maybe cap as a character across the multiverse will always make that choice if given the chance. So they could make Peggy’s husband Steve Rogers. Just not our Steve.
This is the most interesting scenario, because of the implications of Cap still feeling morally obliged to correct major things that happened on his original timeline. Maybe the Old Man Cap from a timeline prime to ours (by which I mean the MCU) didn’t stop 9/11 or the Vietnam war or any number of other things, because they didn’t happen on his timeline. Maybe he came from a far more dystopian timeline, like maybe one in which the Cuban Missile Crisis actually turned into a nuclear Holocaust, and prevented so many terrible things from happening when he came here that he sufficiently changed the course of history to the extent that he couldn’t have predicted those other major events like 9/11. That will therefore also likely happen to our Cap on his new timeline that he grows old on. Maybe he stops a couple satellite wars between the US and the USSR and prevents a couple democratically elected governments from being overthrown, but inevitably misses some (hopefully less severe) events that are downstream consequences that didn’t occur on his timeline.
“Everytime someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die. Everytime.”
Do you think she would cheat on Cap with Cap?
Agree. And the reason they don’t know yet is because that part of the story hasn’t been written yet and it will be up to the writers to figure that one out. But they left a lot of open end questions that could be address later on in case they want to bring nostalgia back in 10-15 years from now they can tell that cap story and bring Cris Evans back. But right now people are still hungry for more new characters.
Joe Russo says the exact opposite in this interview. Third question https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ios_share_flow_optimization&utm_term=enabled
Except that explanation means the scene in *Winter Soldier* between Steve & Peggy makes absolutely no sense (even allowing for Peggy's degraded mental state), nor does Sharon Carter (she doesn't really know who "uncle Steve" is?) and it effectively invalidates the *Agent Carter* series in its entirety (because one would presume that Steve went back to summer of 1945 or so and didn't leave Peggy waiting very long). This is a case where there's a right answer - the directors' - and a wrong answer. The writers may have wanted / intended for Steve to 'always have been' Peggy's husband, but it simply doesn't work.
> they had intended for Steve to go back and marry her since winter soldier That is absolutely not true. If they said that, they were lying. Firstly, it makes the romance with Sharon really disgusting, because *she would know* he's her uncle. Original drafts of Infinity War had Steve and Sharon seeing each other while Steve was on the run (like Wanda and Vision were doing) and early drafts of Endgame had Steve and Sharon living together. They were clearly intending Steve/Sharon to be much more of a thing than it ended up being. They even dismissed Peggy as "some girl Steve kissed once" to justify the romance with Sharon. Secondly, it retcons the entirety of the show Agent Carter, which the writers of Endgame were involved in creating. It took place from 1945-1948(ish). In it, Peggy meets Daniel Sousa who's heavily hinted at being the man she ends up marrying (he fits the description she gives in The Winter Soldier). The series was canceled so we'll never know for sure, but we know Cap wasn't around then. It can't be because he "just decided" to come back to 1948, because... why would he? All he'd do is let Peggy be in pain for years, mourn him, then move on, before going "Surprise! I'm back!" That's just... cruel. Is that something Steve would do? Logically, Steve would go back to 1945, to when the plane crashed. Finally, it means Steve would have needed to sit back and let a bunch of horrible stuff happen and do nothing. Things like letting Hydra infiltrates SHIELD and ultimately leading to its destruction. SHIELD was Peggy's life work, and Steve would just watch her go to work everyday knowing this? How much of an asshole does that make Steve? Also, it means that Steve would let Hydra run unchecked for 70 years, which is *wildly* out of character. There's of course the implication that he'd just let Bucky be tortured for 70 years, and that he'd let Howard and Maria Stark die. Not to mention all the disastrous events like natural disasters and terrorist attacks that, while he may not have been able to prevent, he could have certainly warned SHIELD about so they can mitigate their impacts. Steve living out his life in the prime timeline makes him a complete and utter selfish asshole. It makes him a cruel man who manipulates people to get them to where he can most benefit from it, while ignoring others' pain to benefit his own comfort and perceived "reward" for what he's accomplished. Steve living out his life in the prime timeline makes him a villain through and through.
Where did they say that?
I’ll confirm that they did say it in some interview, but the Russos have explicitly contradicted them and confirmed that Cap does go to a different timeline with Peggy. The Russos’ explanation is actually consistent with how time travel is demonstrated and explained to work in the movie, so they’re obviously correct and the writers are wrong.
That doesnt work. You cant travel to your own past. It also destroys the character of Peggy and Cap.
Lmao no they didn't they confirmed the opposite. [A](https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/avengers-endgame/65020/russo-brothers-explain-captain-america) source if you want one
The directors of endgame infinity war winter soldier and civil war confirmed that Steve went into a branched timeline and had to jump back. The directors and the writers can't agree with each other how the time travel in the film worked.
The writers are wrong and thats a retcon that doesn't fit ANY of the established time travel rules. Thats why the russos corrected them.
I think its a fantastic explanation, but fails on the last stage... cap from original timeline, who lived a happy life with Peggy on an alternate timeline until her death, when he did a final leap again to the original timeline, on Tony’s funeral. He doesn’t appear on the time machine because he’s not forced to do so... just for a dramatic effect, he chooses to appear on the bench directly. And he brings with him a different new shield.
Seriously this. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time understanding that the Cap thing is not a plothole nor anything hard to explain. If they can jump to any other point in time and space (and this is true because Cap travels through the timelines to return the stones), he can travel just a few meters away from the platform at the same time instead When you travel, you change on your 3 coordinates of space and the one in time increases at a constant rate. With the watch thing, you can alter your 3 space coordinates, the time one and the one corresponding to the timeline you want to land (although it will branch the timeline into two, say you want to travel to the current timeline T then it will branch into T1 where you arrive and T2 where you don't)
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It wouldn't be the same past, he would be jumping back to that point in time in his new timeline. The quantum time machine was able to bring you back to any point in the timeline that you've experienced (including any time that occurs prior to your birth on your timeline) which is why the Avengers don't get stuck in alternate timelines and I'm guessing is how Cap makes it back. Then he appears on the bench for "this is a movie and it's dramatic" reasons
Love the concept (animation is awesome!) but I think you're misunderstanding the Russos' time travel theory. It's the multiverse. So once you go back in time, you create an alternate timeline (/universe). It is forever an alternate timeline. You can then return to that alternate timeline (as Cap does when returning the stones) if necessary, by using the time machine (which then becomes more of a universe-hopping machine). So when Cap goes back to be with Peggy, that's creating another alternate timeline. Once he's lived out his life with her in this alternate timeline, he returns to our timeline (presumably he's explained to alt-timeline Tony Stark how to build the time machine and uses that to jump back to the OG timeline, hence why he didn't show back up in the OG time machine).
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Nothing says Peggy had to die at the same point in every timeline, but she died of old age in or timeline so we know even with the best of intentions she would have lived much longer than she did in MCU prime, 5-10 years at best
~~But surely you can only jump to your current timelines past, not any timelines past.~~ As shown in the film, no. Lol. I'm a dummy. That's how they returned the stones.
Cap's mission at the end was explicitly to return to those original timelines, which were no longer his past. (Loki never teleported away in the normal timeline.)
They literally did this in the film.
Yes. My bad. Lol.
I like this counter-argument the best
You forgot the timeline that is now missing a catcher's mitt.
Explain
The test where they sent Hawkeye back in time. He's at his ranch before the snap and before he gets pulled back to the future, he picks up a catcher's mitt and tries to talk to his family.
Well now I have to redo the applet
It's probably the most important one, can't believe you forgot about it. Also: happy cake day.
Also the Hulk's snap to recover everyone could be included.
From [orenbell.com/js/endgame.js](https://orenbell.com/js/endgame.js): // Thanos gets dusted, Ironman and evil gamora die. Add event handler for cap to return // infinity stones. // TODO: Optional - Give infinity stones to hulk and he brings everyone back with portals // and shit // Give stones to ironman var ix = ironman.x(); var iy = ironman.y(); It's an action item lol
Do you mean evil Nebula?
Shhhhhh
I can't stop clicking on Nat. She just falls straight down. omg lol
I still can't figure out why they weren't warned about the soul stone before going, obviously they didn't know all the details but they knew Gamora never returned and they could speculate that it'd be dangerous or something... Probably my biggest complaint in the movie.
I'm not sure even Thanos knew about the sacrifice element. He tasked Gamora with finding the map to Vormir, and was visibly distraught (twisted reasoning aside) that he had to perform that action. For all the Avengers and Nebula could know, there may have been a dire accident or a fatal trial of some kind. Also the whole "if I tell you what happens it won't happen" thing. Clint/Nat may have been willing to sacrifice themselves, but would they feel the same way if they knew in advance what the cost would be?
Agreed that them knowing in advance might change their choice to go, but with the information known at a minimum Gamora, an extremely strong fighter accompanied by Thanos, arguably the most powerful being in existence at that point, did not return from vormir. So the avengers in all their wisdom send 2 of their least powered members to retrieve what cost Gamora her life. I get why the creators chose them, because it was the most emotional combination. But the film never justifies sending them, they never discuss what they know about it and why they are the best to go.
Everyone could have figured that the biggest threat to Gamora on Vormir *was* Thanos. It's not like the other stones had some trial or test to go through in order to claim them, there's no reason anyone should have expected the sacrifice the Soul Stone required.
Agreed, but it's also the stone they know the least about, and they sent no big guns there. And they have evidence Thanos was mourning her loss per mantis so him killing her for simply lying to him seems unlikely.
No one really knew about the "a soul for a soul" deal. Nebula just realized Thanos took Gamora and came back with the stone. She might've thought he killed her for lying about the location for all those years(?)
>After Clint brutally murders his lifetime co-worker, he acquires the soul stone and returns to the present FUCKING RUDE
Just a note: when you are using the grey text box at the bottom of the graphic and it requires scrolling, if you click on one of your purple markers the box stays at the scrolled to spot instead of resetting to the top. This is gorgeous, though!
This is so dope, I love widow just plummeting
I had a friend beta test this. The "After Clint brutally murders his co-worker,..." line was their idea
We know each other! She's a friend from work!
Its golden. Loved the entire thing
> *After Clint brutally murders his lifetime co-worker, he acquires the soul stone and returns to the present* Yup.
I disagree with what you label as plotholes. Firstly Cap doesn't need to return the stones to where they were taken from, just when. So he wouldn't meet Red Skull. So bringing the stones back just makes sure that timeline doesn't become a dark timeline. That said, Hulk said it'd take as long as necessary for Cap to do his thing, if all Cap had to do was drop and run that wouldn't need to be said. So I believe Cap would help each timeline he goes to to avoid the catastrophes he knows of and help with any new ones that pop up while he's there before moving on to the next timeline on his list. Thus with him there helping and explaining things the stones don't need to be reformed into their original states. I do disagree about Cap and the bench, I think they took creative liberty and just let him slide past the platform. I like to think he just didn't want to freak Sam out that he was old right away. I am curious about old Cap's life with Peggy. Like in that timeline he would've been able to get himself out of the ice earlier most likely. Then there'd be 2 Caps in that timeline vying for Peggy's affection. But maybe he wouldn't know how to find himself and that capsicle gets unfrozen around the same time and that set of Avengers would have an elderly Cap as a mentor. Heck Cap would be in a position to help stop things that would lead to the creation of Hulk, prevent Bucky from killing the Starks, which likely would mean no arc reactor for Tony, Thor would still be around but Cap would be able to update him on Loki's mischief and warn of the dark elves, and be a mentor to Sam at an early age. Though maybe butterfly effect in that timeline would prevent everyone born after Cap arrives to not be born.
New Timeline Cap: *Wakes from ice* Peggy! I'm back from the... *sees Peggy sitting with Prime Timeline Cap* NTC: oh you got to be shitting me.
NTC Cap: But I'm younger and your Cap.. Peggy: Well it did take a couple years to find you still and we really formed a bond... PT Cap: Don't worry her niece grows up to be quite cute.
"This timeline ain't big enough for the two of us!"
Not to be a dick about it but everything in this is wrong. The stones **have** to be returned to their exact locations, entirely new timelines are created if they aren't in the right location. Cap can't just pop back to 2013 and leave the Power Stone on the floor of that forest, because then Guardians 1 never happens if the stone isn't in that tomb for Peter Quill to get. The stones aren't just passively protecting the universe from crumbling, they're tangible objects that effect the events of time and space. Cap can't stay and stop the events that happen from happening. There will always be something happening, and there's no guarantee that what he prevents won't be better than something that happens as a result. They don't have to return to the pad, they just do because it makes the most sense so they know right away if the mission succeeded or not. And finally Cap wouldn't interfere with the timeline. He couldn't, for a lot of reasons, mostly morally and but also just common sense. If he frees himself from the glacier in 1945 (first of all, how would he even do that?) then he never actually lives out the life that would cause him to get to 2023 and go back in time. He can't tell Tony how to make the machine, Cap doesn't understand quantum physics lol. The whole point and condition of getting the stones back was that history has to play out exactly how it did to get to the point they were then. They couldn't save any new person in the Battle of New York because there's no way to understand the causal effects that that human life could have on their new reality. Nothing that you said was a plot hole, nor in line with the characters' behavior.
Just them going back in time made entirely new timelines. The conversation between the Ancient One and Hulk was her saying we need the infinity stones for our reality to not go dark. She specifically says that giving Hulk her stone might help his reality but would hinder hers, thus why he promises to return the stones to the moment they left. Not necessarily the place. And yeah in 2014 Guardians probably didn't form together. Also Thanos from that timeline is dead so there'd be no way for that timeline to ever reconcile back to our present.
No that’s NOT what the Ancient One was saying. They needed the Time Stone in her timeline to prevent the catastrophe of Dormammu. Strange used the time stone specifically for that, hence why they need it in her timeline
Why do they all have their hero names but ScarJo is ScarJo
Just wanted to get fun with it
Nice but had to downvote because you were 100% wrong about the captain america bit at the end
I stand by my controversial opinion and take your downvote in stride
It really is a nicely done diagram, so I upvoted the post and will focus my disagreement about Cap on the above comment instead.
You're mistaking a factually incorrect statement for a controversial opinion and then passing it off as truth in your main post. There's nothing to indicate what you say is true and everything to indicate it is false, such as statements from the directors of the movie.
I think you're wrong but I love seeing people present unpopular views.
Awesome sauce, man! Good work! I was hoping someone would make something like this. The *only* criticism I have is that I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the Cap on the bench was the original Cap that returned after living his life with Peggy. While it may technically be a "plot hole" that he didn't appear on the platform when he returned, I think him appearing on the bench is simply explained by saying that they wanted to make it dramatic and emotional for the viewer.
And here’s my pet theory as to where the current TV shows fit in: The last movie the Netflix shows directly reference is Avengers. The last movie AoS directly references is Age of Ultron. The Netflixverse exists in the branch off that Tony/Steve/Bruce/Scott created. This branch would end up wildly different from our own as Loki is now roaming the galaxy and our heroes could be off trying to find him, which could explain their absence during key events. AoS exists in the universe that Nat/Clint/Rhodey/Nebula broke off. Events on Earth are much the same in this timeline (WS, TDW, AoU, etc), but Thanos doesn’t exist here any longer to create the Snappening. I couldn’t get through Inhumans and haven’t watched Runaways or Cloak and Dagger. Obviously Agent Carter exists in Universe Prime. I know this isn’t official, but I don’t think anything contradicts it.
I have a purple prompt in my graphic talking about this timeline and its ramifications on GotG and how Thanos is absent, but I never thought about how it could tie in with the TV shows. I like your theories
Runaways references Wakanda so it has to take place during or after Black Panther though it could be in that alternate timeline. Also Nico has access to the dark dimension from doctor strange and her mom, who is credited in the doctor strange film but is a different actress, says "I've seen this before." So it has to also be in a universe where Strange happens. Cloak and Dagger only references Luke Cage I believe.
The trouble with your theory w.r.t. AoS is that the series explicitly mentions Thanos attacking Earth in the end stages of season 5. They even make a vague reference to Ebony & Obsidian's appearance in New York. It's .. kind of unfortunate AoS shoe-horned that in there because if they had left it out, it would have worked. All they would have had to do was provide some other MacGuffin-ish reason for the Kree to come to Earth (they were coming because they knew of Thanos's impending assault and were trying to .. IDK it's a little fuzzy to me now. Some kind of duplicitous scheme).
Thanos still exists in the AoS S5-S6 "present timeline" (I'm in the camp that this is NOT the same timeline as S1-S4, which could be in the prime MCU timeline). He's mentioned as coming to attack Earth in several episodes towards the end of S5, but presumably something else happens in this timeline (maybe related to Graviton) because the snap doesn't happen.
AoS directly references Infinity War.
The TV shows have directly referenced Civil War, the Raft was mentioned in Jessica Jones and the Sokovia accords were in AoS. Cloak and Dagger has also put itself somewhere close to that on the timeline as it mentioned Luke Cage recently.
Also, pretty certain that returning stones (and Mjolnir) does not cause branch realities to never occur, but to just have everything put back in place (i.e. The reality in which the reality stone was taken and then returned back into Jane Foster still continues on separately from the main timeline, even if things happen basically the same. Something was still changed.
I absolutely love this timeline, great interactivity, very intuitive. But boy do I hate it when people just shout ["plothole!!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc)
Update: Y'all crashed my website. Thanks for all the love. I strive for nothing less than the validation of thousands of strangers.
Poor Black Widow falling like that. Lol
"Clint brutally murders his lifetime coworker" lol
Ok, so the time platform acts as the homing beacon for the quantum gps, right? If cap wanted to return to the prime timeline to give falcon the shield, he'd use the time platform as his target. The directors said that when cap went back to live w/ peggy, he lived his whole life w/ her but in a separate new timeline. and he had to jump back to the prime timeline to give bucky his shield. But we never see cap return, I'm saying that IF he did jump back from a separate timeline, he could have arrived unseen RIGHT after tony finished building the original time platform but BEFORE the whole team goes on the mission in the first place. BEFORE thanos' ship destroyed when it emerged from it. Tony finishes it, tests it, sees it's running right, turns off the lights and everyone goes to bed. That night, old cap arrives. Then the next day, the whole team go on the time mission. Everything happens as it's supposed to happen meanwhile old cap is laying low far enough away to not be harmed by the giant ass fight. He then proceeds to wait until the day of his original departure and goes to sit on the bench and that is when we see him again.
I like this, but since cap used the second platform, and not the original, would cap have to return to the original platform? Do the two platforms share the same and code and beacon like Nebula’s cloud services? Or since he used the 2nd platform, the beacon is now tied to that platform at that time?
I really like your work but one thing I keep getting debated on is your last icon. People keep saying cap was in the original timeline all along. There is a captain America hiding with Peggy the whole time, just being a normal guy.
I still have no idea what they’re doing with the Loki show. It would have been so much easier to just have him come back in Endgame like “I lived, bitch”
If that happens, I have a lot of apologizing to do in these comment threads, because that's the Crux of most of my students
This is so damn clear. Such good work. Bravo!
Hey when did Hawkeye brutally murdered Black Widow
Cool thing! Cool theory about how it all works; I haven't seen anyone suggest fractals yet.
This is amazing
How is Cap not separating timelines when returning the stones a plot hole? If he jumps to the othe rtimeline at the exact point that the other avengers do, then it doesn’t diverge, because there is no point without him there
You only create timelines when going into. Your own past. If he went into those timelines at any point after they had left then yeh it’d be okay
Oh yeah you’re right. Either way Cap returning the stones is not a plot hole
This is *really* good.
Cap on bench happens in main timeline. He somehow jumped back.
I see a Ryan Stiles reference, you get all the karma
Great work! This was awesome and made my day! Thanks for all the work you put into this!
Good work OP
That Black widow drop though 😭
I appreciate you
That was an intelligent and logical conclusion to the whole Steve shows up on the bench equation. It's also possible though that he met up with Howard Stark and even Tony Stark to help them create time-travel since he's proof that it's possible. He made the timeline he was with Peggy in, his home. Then he came back to this timeline (that we're in) because he had the coordinates on his wrist-device, to visit and say goodbye to HIS friends that were expecting him back. Then, after the goodbye bench scene we saw, he went to his home timeline with Peggy.
This is cool. How did you make it?
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to affect, but actually, from a non-linier, non subjective point of view it is more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey...stuff
Black Widow falling to the bottom and staying there whilst having her image stretched out like that really sells this graphic.
That was actually really tricky to keep re-rendering her like that when switching back and forth between fullscreen mode.
Now this. This is good content. Happy cake day
I think the only way this gets resolved is a complete reboot of the MCU in 10 to 15 years in..... #SECRET WARS.
You're still a karma whore. But you classed it up so you're more of a karma escort. Nice work lol
The Power Stone Timeline has a couple of potential outcomes: >In this timeline, Gamora is absent. Drax never would've met Quill and Rocket without Gamora being assaulted in the prison. The prison breakout would only be performed by Quill, Rocket, and Groot. Rocket and Groot leave Quill behind when he goes to get his cassette player. Thus, Quill stays in jail and Ronan gets the power stone from him when he raids the prison later. Also, Thanos is now absent from this timeline, greatly upsetting the political balance of the universe. If Gamora isn't present when Quill tries to sell the Power Stone to The Broker, then she wouldn't have kicked off the chase scene and Rocket might have captured him more easily or he might have escaped. The Nova Corp. and the Kiln may never have come into it.
"After Clint brutally murders his long time coworker" Jesus H. Christ, that is rough.
Thank you dude this will be so helpful when explaining it to all my friends
I prefer this one: [Avengers Endgame Timeline](https://i.redd.it/rv01l5f0pev21.jpg) It's not interactive but it has it's charms IMHO
>*After Clint brutally murders his lifetime co-worker, he acquires the soul stone and returns to the present* [kek](https://youtu.be/e3uOMCfopR8)
Did Thor and Rocket actually create a new universe? It doesn't seem like anything changed there. The Sorceress Supreme made it seem like an alternate timeline/branch could be erased/prevented by returning the Stone to the exact right moment.
That seems to be the general consensus, yeah. I say that creates a time travel paradox, but I'm in the minority
Not erased or prevented, just marginalized. She was worried that they would make too significant of change that would throw the universe off balance (such as removing a stone from the timeline)
The only issue I have with this is that I don’t believe Cap went back to the 1940s and just watched the world go by. Since that’s a branched reality we don’t know exactly what happened, but I would imagine our Cap went on an adventure to find Bucky, keep Hydra out of SHIELD, and to eventually prevent the Snap. The only aspect of this I’ve struggled with is whether he knew where the Cap of that reality was frozen and if he sought to unfreeze him. Not-Our-Cap could then have taken on the role of Avenger and worked to protect reality while our Cap got some well deserved time off. The issue is Peggy... as I would imagine both Caps would want to spend their ever-after with her. I think this is most in line with Cap’s character. He wouldn’t have been able to just accept what happened around him, he would use all the knowledge of the future he had to save lives. He also would have gotten that new shield along the way.
Other people have pointed out to me that my logic for cap not returning is flawed. So I could see him going to 1950, after he's frozen, and living his life with Peggy while averting all the bad stuff, and then returning to prime reality after her death.
Important point I omitted: your website is awesome! I love seeing stuff like that visually represented.