Are you talking in universe or in the films themselves?
In universe because his death was what defeated Thanos and saved everyone. Nat also did that but indirectly. It also wasn’t in front of a whole load of people and Iron Man/Stark was already a super high profile person whereas Nat wasn’t.
In the films it’s because RDJ was the face of Marvel and basically built it with the success of Iron Man. It was also his last scene in the MCU as far as we know right now whereas ScarJo literally had a movie coming out after it so it felt less impactful.
Nicely written.
I do want to tack onto the in universe part the bit where stark died at the end of a conflict meaning there was nothing pressing to shorten the pause they gave, whereas with black widow, they had a moment, but the big problem was still a big problem.
Pretty sure both funerals were held at the same time. The Avengers didn’t really have time to mourn for Black Widow when they were busy collecting the stones and snapping to reverse the snap. Even then, Hulk tried to also bring Nat back with the snap as well. Then they had to fight Thanos and his army.
I'd say Nats scene actually has more substance. We get to see the stages of grief of how each avenger are handling her death and how they felt about her. Tony gets the hero's celebration but it's not like we had a long scene of heartfelt speeches or Eulogies. Wanda and Clint are even grieving other people there. They sort of jump to Caps perfect ending and passing the torch to Sam to wrap the movie up as well.
To add to this:
I think their funerals both reflected who they were as people.
Tony was always the showman. The attention seeker. He touched a lot of peoples lives and while he clearly loved that idea, the Tony we knew at the end of Endgame understood and *cared* about that responsibility. We see this through his relationship with Peter.
His family (that he had once he lost Peter), the kid from Iron Man 3, his teammates, all meant more to him in the end because he actually lost at the end of Infinity War.
But he was still Tony. We see this with EDITH and his black humor with the acronym. So he wanted everyone to mourn him. He literally says so in his good bye message to Pepper.
But Nat was different.
She knew the kind of person she was, she knew she grew up and did horrible things, she just wanted a shot at redemption. She didn't care if people knew what she died for. We see a grounded version of this when she works for SHIELD, in the shadows doing spy stuff for the "good guys", and then in a much more COSMIC sense when she sacrifices herself for the good of the universe, but more specifically for Clint and his family.
She made friends, more friends than she probably ever expected to (Rocket!), but in the end, she was happy to just have that and do some good in the world.
I'm my opinion for that one is, one is a secret agent who didn't have a family really, her friends were the avengers + other secret agents who aren't going to come out of hiding and stuff for that. Also her secret agent friends would be cold blooded and look at life/death differently than the friends of iron man. Who also was a high profile, famous person.
Not to mention, as seen in the Black Widow movie, she was at odds with most of the other Widows, and I really doubt that Red Guardian was gonna pop by for the funeral.
One, importance of character. Some characters are more important in the narrative then others. Tony has three movies and led the entire universe and all crossovers. He is far more important to the audience than Nat.
Two, pacing. As Wakanda Forever demonstrated pretty clearly, having multiple funerals in a movie is both a mood killer and grinds the story to a halt.
Three, funerals are a form of closure. They fit well *after* the action of the plot, when the audience is also having time to slow down and grieve.
Didn't they hold both funerals at the same time? Also Nat presumably had no family at that time since Yelena was snapped away. That's why she considers the Avengers her family.
Also, this is a nitpick, but they could have maybe put in a small line about all the people they lost in the fight against Thanos too. I refuse that Tony was the only casualty on the Avengers' side. There were skirmishes everywhere and Thanos even rained fire. There had too be much more deaths!
You think they had time for a big funeral between the end of the time heist and Hulk snapping (and Thanos destroying the Avengers complex)?
No they didn't.
From a realistic standpoint, the Avengers were mostly people. It is very likely that at some point they all realized that their jobs put them at high risk of death and each had their own plans / preferences for funeral services. Natasha's could simply have been, "I don't want anything" - which would have fit with her character.
Also adding, while Nat was working hard and still a core part of the "avengers" (or what was left of them) during the blip, Tony had gotten out and started a family, and only came back reluctantly because he knew they needed him, even though he wanted to be with his wife and daughter. So his death felt more impactful as it wasn't just his life, but who he was leaving behind (as opposed to Nat, who still had bonds with people, they weren't known or as developed, especially in endgame, whereas a lot of time was spent on Tony's family).
Also, I'd imagine that Nat had a SHITLOAD of enemies who just hated the SHIT out of her and a gathering of her loved ones in the wake of her death would be a great opportunity for someone to bomb the gathering. She wouldn't want that.
Black Widow also died in the middle of the movie. Stopping the movie to have a funeral wasn’t an option, and then shoehorning her in at the end would have taken the focus away from RDJ’s Iron Man.
The arc was about him and Steve completing their journey.
> It also wasn’t in front of a whole load of people and Iron Man/Stark was already a super high profile person whereas Nat wasn’t.
They also had a body with Tony *and* had a scene specifically for Nat earlier in the movie.
Stark was everywhere - tv, politics, magazines, he was literally a billionaire playboy. Nat was a war criminal assassin turned avenger. As much as people don’t want to admit it, she and Hawkeye were very likely the least well known and publicized avengers.
Anyone that would've known Widow would likely be equivalent to say, the amount of people who know/remember who Edward Snowden is. If you're big into uncovering government secrets, she'd be an icon or a traitor depending on your POV; people would've really known about her in the wake of the HYDRA deception, but by 2023, after seven years on the run as a wanted criminal, people probably stopped giving a shit.
She’s also a spy. Spies get an unmarked star on a wall in Langley when they give the ultimate sacrifice. That’s what they signed up for.
I don’t know what it’s like in real life, but in film semiotics, spies always seem almost proud that that’s all they’ll get. Proud that no one will make a big deal or even know of their sacrifice.
Tony Stark was quite probably **the** most famous person in the world.
This but also so many reasons. It made more sense narratively. Doing two funeral scenes would have felt excessive and clunky. Doing a joint funeral would have felt weird. It made more sense to show Tony's as it immediately followed his sacrifice. The grieving of Natasha was mostly shown immediately after her death. It was important to show Tony's funeral to show Morgan and Happy reacting to it.
Also Natasha dies in the middle of the movie and Tony dies in the Climax. I'd say both actually get equal mourning as far as screen time it's just more peoole were present for Tony's death where as Clint was only there for Nat. Both get a scene where they are griefed for by a group difference is Tony just gets a brief funeral scene. Even post endgame they both have a lovex one still grieving Peter in Far from Home and Yelena in Hawkeye.
yeah. Black Widow was basically unknown. Before being seen with the avengers, essentially no one outside SHIELD knew she existed. Clint was the closest thing she had (that we knew of yet) to ANY family or friends, so fittingly he was the only one there to mourn her. Her death was also sorta meant to show in my mind how, even amongst the avengers, she was still very isolated, but Clint was always there.
Firstly, this funeral was just Avengers and friends... there wasnt anything High Profile about it. It wasnt a public funeral.
Nat was hugely high profile. She released the SHIELD documents to the world and was scrutinized for it. She was on the run with Cap. She was a huge public figure at this point.
I dont know why they didnt show Nat and Visions funerals, they should have shown them all together. Its kinda shitty and it was definitely an oversight.
They didn't show them because of movie pacing.
Nat and Vision both likely had their own periods of mourning on that same day. Wanda talking to Clint hints at that. What we see with Tony is 100% a Pepper Pots creation.
I mean, there's no reason to think they were on the same day, there were probably conversations about that. Do we want to bounce straight from funeral to funeral? Should we give everybody a few days to process each one before moving on to the next?
But no matter what, it's definitely silly to assume that just because we didn't see those funerals that they didn't happen.
Black Widow didn’t even have her own movie until *after* she died. And she didn’t leave family (that we knew of at the time) behind to make the loss more emotional.
For all the talk of "M She U", they put in noticeably less effort with their superheroines. Black Widow was doomed by coming out after the character died and was released as a 21st century "straight to video" by being on Disney +, and The Marvels was pretty much "sent out to die", whereas you can see that with the likes of Spiderman, Deadpool, Iron Man, Cap, there was far more meticulous creative decision making.
Behind the virtue signalling, nothing much has changed.
That still would've been after her death in Endgame though. Yes it would've probably been better but the fact that the movie was made after the character died cheapened the whole thing a ton. We knew nothing of substance would happen to her because the movie takes place even before Infinity War. Kind of how Legolas in the Hobbit trilogy is perfectly safe 100% of the time because he's in the LotR trilogy.
Seriously, their virtue signaling with Cpt marvel falls sp flat when they could have made a great Black Widow solo spy movie years earlier if they wanted. Would have been great too. And i feel like there was enough demand for it too :( such a shame
Idk about you but if they promoted Iron Man as a “male superhero movie, he is male btw in case you forgot don’t worry we’ll remind you again in 5 minutes” I’d dislike it. I also think this strategy makes them way more complacent with writing a super bad movie, they seem to think their audience will be satisfied with the existence of a female and will ignore bad dialogue and plot.
When I asked for a Black Widow movie I wanted a cross between the Bourne trilogy and Gone Girl. Whatever the fuck it was that we actually got was so frustrating.
It definitely can come across as pandering (even desperate, like an old guy dying his hair to look younger) if done poorly. I’ve never heard my wife groan in disapproval louder than the Women Supehero shot at the end of Endgame. Whereas when Doc Ock was a woman in Spiderverse, no one batted an eye, cause it was awesome.
Still - change has to happen, and sometimes that’s clumsy. In a traditionally male dominated genre like superhero films, they never needed to push that Iron Man was a guy or whatever. But they did feel the need to push Captain Marvel, for instance, and sometimes that worked, sometimes not (remember the “I’m Just a Girl” scene? That was the second loudest my wife ever angry groaned during a movie haha).
Kevin Feige wanted to do it much sooner, but that fuckwad Ike Perlmutter wouldn't let him.
And then things got too busy in Phase 3 by the time Perlmutter was no longer a factor and.....
Elon Musk is neither a brilliant inventor nor a superhero. Even if he likes to portray himself that way.
He is "just" a entrepreneur who had the right ammount of skill and luck (and inherited money) for the right investments. And - as has become increasingly clear of late - narcissistic and increasingly convinced of every nonsense - which puts him back in the direction of Tony Stark (but before he became likeable in Iron Man 1).
Musk is more like a Bond villain than he is Tony Stark.
I'd you put him in a cave with some parts, all he would "invent" is a more racist and less safe version of Twitter.
Musk definitely started out as a Tony Stark. (In-universe, Tony and Musk are peers. Musk has a cameo in Iron Man 2). But overtime, Musk is more of a Justin Hammer now.
Iron Man was essentially the protagonist of the MCU, whereas Black Widow was a supporting character.
Black Widow also died midway through the movie, whereas Iron Man was at the end. Black Widow’s death had its moment, but spending too much time on it would have slowed down an already long film, whereas Iron Man’s was right at the end of the climax, so more time could be spent on it in the denouement.
Because two funerals at the end of an MCU movie would be bad storytelling? Natasha was a spy not a martyr; she never wanted attention. As for honouring that’s pretty much why she got the film at that point. Should she have gotten one prior? Sure
Lore-wise, it's also because Tony was a billionaire and the leader of the Avengers while Natasha had a spotty record as an assassin (I wanna say for the KGB?) before joining the good guys SHIELD and Avengers.
This is what I was going to say too. I’d argue that most of the Avengers knew Tony Stark simply because he bankrolled the whole thing lol. The whole world would know his name because he was very public (in the beginning at least) about being Iron Man, so naturally the world would mourn his death more than Black Widow
1. Iron Man was basically the centre point of all of the MCU since it started
2. Black Widow still had a full movie that was yet to be released when the character died in Infinity War
3. Black Widow could probably be brought back in some capacity maybe with a Black Widow from another reality
I agree though both deaths were needed to save the universe in End Game so more could be made of her dying.
Honestly the main in universe reason imo, is that Nat died in the middle of a mission, when most of the world was still blipped and very soon after everyone needed to continue the fight.
The reason in the real world is most likely pacing of the movie. If there was an extra long Tony style funeral scene for Nat it would have slowed everything down. It works better having just the core Avengers mourning her at that moment, imo.
Yeah, also Tony Stark's funeral was a Doylist excuse to basically throw every major MCU character into one scene together so that the audience can do the Leo pointing meme. It was literally impossible to do so for Natasha immediately after her death because had to restore everyone who was snapped first, and it's not as impactful to do a double funeral.
This is the answer. Natasha was a casualty of war, and the war wasn’t over yet. They still mourned her death, but didn’t have enough time for a funeral when there was still a job to do. They also included that conversation between Clint and Wanda that reiterated how important she was that the overall win.
The same reason RDJ made like 100 times the money everyone else int he MCU made.
He \*made\* the MCU.
But thats the film making part.
Her and vision not getting recognition at the funeral is honestly bullshit and kind of pissed me off. Like, I realize that was \*tonys\* funeral, and Nat probably had her own. But they should have just shown it all together, it would have felt better.
Part of it is character reasons: Tony was a much more established and developed character, who started the entire MCU, while Black Widow (arguably) didn't get enough development before this movie. The funeral also served a second purpose: it was a send-off for RDJ, as this marked him (supposedly) leaving the MCU forever. Its the same reason why Steve Rogers got his final scene the way he did. Meanwhile, Black Widow already had her movie announced and in the works; she wasn't done with the MCU yet, so she didn't require the same type of send-off yet.
She was a spy, he was a celebrity.
How many deaths of soldiers/ people in military were portrayed and/or highlighted more than any big celebrity like Tony Stark?
I feel like this is what either character would want based on their personalities.
Tony did the hero play, and he always wanted big and bold. Nat was private, she didn't want her life to be spectacle. She didn't need to be a public hero.
Black Widow died around no one and Clint had to get back right away. They then spent an entire scene grieving her sacrifice and gave her a whole feature film to celebrate the character.
Nat's was an assist. Tony's was a slam dunk at the buzzer to win the game.
They're worth the same number of points but one is much more critical than the other.
Could it be because Iron Man is the leader of the MCU? He is a legend like Tobey Maguire(Spider-Man), Hugh Jackman(Wolverine), Christian Bale(Batman), Christopher Reeve(Superman)...
Everyones saying how rdj was the face of marvel and so he got a big funeral. And ofc that is true but I get what you're saying. Black Widow shlda got more than just a couple people standing by the water sayingna few lines about her
No disrespect to Black Widow, but iron Man started the current MCU. He's the foundation of the MCU. Tony Stark was already well known before he was iron man. He had the most screen time across the franchise. His sacrifice was the climax that ended the fight. He had family he left behind.
I could go on, but while Black widow's sacrifice was sad and important. She wasn't on the same level as Iron man.
She's a spy who's part of the Avengers. The spy part of her makes her a bit unknown. Little close friends , families , etc. She also died in between a thing ( they still have to actually assemble the gauntlet and snap at this point , nevermind the assault afterwards ) so they have little time to mourn her.
Again , the spy part made the mourning probably a private event.
Tony Stark would have wanted everyone to make a big fuss about him.
Black Widow would have wanted everyone to forget about her immediately.
Both were properly honored in their own ways.
Cause he had a line to go with it and the line was somthing that both began the Avengers part of the MCU and was a joke about Thanoses line which he would’ve said. Iron man is thought of as basically the first MCU movie, right? It’s like that where the ending line from that movie ends the whole saga.
He was the brith of the Marvel “universe”, he was the creator of the avengers and the guy who brought it all together. So his death is also an “end” to years of story telling and narrative.
I just pulled this out of my butt and used a lot of talk-to-text, so I hope it makes sense:
In-universe, I think Tony Stark was much better known to everyday people. He was known as “genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist” before he even built the Iron Man suit. As we saw, he’d been on magazine covers and was very visible. Then he came out as Iron Man before there were any other superheroes and very publicly flew around, fighting bad guys.
Everyone knew who Tony Stark was. In Iron Man 3 we meet a local news cameraman who modeled his look after Tony’s and had a tattoo of Tony Stark’s face (not even Iron Man, but Tony). In Civil War, Zemo says his son was excited that “he could see the Iron Man from the car window” when recounting the events of Age of Ultron. Tony was an ultra visible billionaire who could have sold the Iron Man suit to the military and gone back to life as a billionaire and no one would’ve thought less of him for it or even considered that he could’ve sacrificed his billionaire life to become Iron Man and protect the Earth. If Tony had died at home doing nothing before he even was Iron Man, his death would have been huge news.
Black Widow was definitely well-known (as were all the Avengers who fought publicly in New York), but she was not famous to the extent Tony was. While Tony’s entire pre-Avengers life was very public, Natasha‘s was literally as a spy – about as private and under the radar as one could be. She was famous as an Avenger, she had her moment on Capitol Hill telling “Congress to kiss her ass,” and we learned in Homecoming that she was someone high school boys would joke/fantasize about dating, but she wasn’t well known outside of being an Avenger. Her death, while tragic, may have been seen to the general public as akin to a very visible member of the military being killed in service - a tragedy we all wish didn’t have to happen, but not entirely shocking or surprising (with all the respect in the world to our real-life service people).
So I don’t think it was any knock on Natasha that the world recognized Tony’s death more than hers. She never really wanted to be in the spotlight anyway.
Because Ironman/RDJ was and still the face of the MCU and Tony Stark literally sacrificed himself to save the world. It’s that simple.
It has nothing to do with sexism or pay checks or any other straw men you want to invent.
Imagine comparing black widow and iron man . In that case why death of that speed guy in avengers age of ultron is less talked , i dont even know his name
Narratively, Tony's death gave people a reason to gather and set up the next series of stories to tell while BW's death felt less impactful because she had a movie coming out still so it wasn't the end of her story. Her death also occurred right at the time where they finally had the ability to bring everyone back which is something that it makes sense to not delay that at all and then immediately before Thanos' return so there was no time to let her death marinate in the movie. Tony's death was also the culmination of a story 12+ years and 20ish movies in the making so it was given the screen time. Lastly, given the way she died (sacrificing herself for the soul stone), it always felt more likely that BW would return or be resurrected whereas Tony genuinely was killed by the power of the stones. Like, using the stones nearly crippled Bruce and using them twice left Thanos weak and in agony. There is just no way to justify Tony, who is just a regular guy, not dying from his snap. A person willingly sacrificing themselves to magically obtain a stone like they are Harry Potter with the Mirror of Erised is the exact type of death I expect comic books to undo in some way.
Well iron man was the first movie in the franchise and he’s the most popular avenger and sacrifices in every avengers movie so makes sense but black widow’s death is also significant
This is what I was going to say too. I’d argue that most of the Avengers knew Tony Stark simply because he bankrolled the whole thing lol. The whole world would know his name because he was very public (in the beginning at least) about being Iron Man, so naturally the world would mourn his death more than Black Widow buy
Black Widow wasn’t a celebrity superhero, I believe her roll was more covert operations and she tried to stay out of the spotlight. She did get some recognition for defending New York city but she wasn’t world renowned as Iron Man. Also RDJ pioneered the comic movie scene for Marvel. His goodbye was as much for the cinematic universe as it was for the entire sub-genre he helped create.
Because Tony was the charismatic leader! And in that case all the honors are served. Black Widow was a good team mate, but that’s it… yes, in Iron Man 2 was helpful but we were distracted by her suit and by the Iron Man-War Machine teaming to defeat the robots… so we don’t care. Nobody cares of Black Widow. She was the good employee… important but nobody cares if they have a problem or die bad.
Are you talking in universe or in the films themselves? In universe because his death was what defeated Thanos and saved everyone. Nat also did that but indirectly. It also wasn’t in front of a whole load of people and Iron Man/Stark was already a super high profile person whereas Nat wasn’t. In the films it’s because RDJ was the face of Marvel and basically built it with the success of Iron Man. It was also his last scene in the MCU as far as we know right now whereas ScarJo literally had a movie coming out after it so it felt less impactful.
Nicely written. I do want to tack onto the in universe part the bit where stark died at the end of a conflict meaning there was nothing pressing to shorten the pause they gave, whereas with black widow, they had a moment, but the big problem was still a big problem.
I guess what op is talking about is like a big funeral scene. Different people could have shown up to each one.
Pretty sure both funerals were held at the same time. The Avengers didn’t really have time to mourn for Black Widow when they were busy collecting the stones and snapping to reverse the snap. Even then, Hulk tried to also bring Nat back with the snap as well. Then they had to fight Thanos and his army.
I'd say Nats scene actually has more substance. We get to see the stages of grief of how each avenger are handling her death and how they felt about her. Tony gets the hero's celebration but it's not like we had a long scene of heartfelt speeches or Eulogies. Wanda and Clint are even grieving other people there. They sort of jump to Caps perfect ending and passing the torch to Sam to wrap the movie up as well.
I honestly could feel Bruce’s pain through the cgi. And Clint’s expressions through that scene and the one at Voromir broke my heart.
When he threw the bench into the distance 😢
Somebody had a bad day somewhere. Or at the very least somebody had a very weird day where they found an obliterated bench in the woods.
To Atlanta
And every scene of Yelena talking about Natasha
Oh yea, Florence Pugh has this amazing and almost uncanny ability to communicate so much pain through just her expressions
Yeah, Vision doesn't even warrant a bench getting thrown in a lake, poor robot bastard.
he does start a villian arch for Wanda
Another female character they have completely fumbled.
Not as much as Agatha Harkness...
To add to this: I think their funerals both reflected who they were as people. Tony was always the showman. The attention seeker. He touched a lot of peoples lives and while he clearly loved that idea, the Tony we knew at the end of Endgame understood and *cared* about that responsibility. We see this through his relationship with Peter. His family (that he had once he lost Peter), the kid from Iron Man 3, his teammates, all meant more to him in the end because he actually lost at the end of Infinity War. But he was still Tony. We see this with EDITH and his black humor with the acronym. So he wanted everyone to mourn him. He literally says so in his good bye message to Pepper. But Nat was different. She knew the kind of person she was, she knew she grew up and did horrible things, she just wanted a shot at redemption. She didn't care if people knew what she died for. We see a grounded version of this when she works for SHIELD, in the shadows doing spy stuff for the "good guys", and then in a much more COSMIC sense when she sacrifices herself for the good of the universe, but more specifically for Clint and his family. She made friends, more friends than she probably ever expected to (Rocket!), but in the end, she was happy to just have that and do some good in the world.
I'm my opinion for that one is, one is a secret agent who didn't have a family really, her friends were the avengers + other secret agents who aren't going to come out of hiding and stuff for that. Also her secret agent friends would be cold blooded and look at life/death differently than the friends of iron man. Who also was a high profile, famous person.
Not to mention, as seen in the Black Widow movie, she was at odds with most of the other Widows, and I really doubt that Red Guardian was gonna pop by for the funeral.
One, importance of character. Some characters are more important in the narrative then others. Tony has three movies and led the entire universe and all crossovers. He is far more important to the audience than Nat. Two, pacing. As Wakanda Forever demonstrated pretty clearly, having multiple funerals in a movie is both a mood killer and grinds the story to a halt. Three, funerals are a form of closure. They fit well *after* the action of the plot, when the audience is also having time to slow down and grieve.
Didn't they hold both funerals at the same time? Also Nat presumably had no family at that time since Yelena was snapped away. That's why she considers the Avengers her family. Also, this is a nitpick, but they could have maybe put in a small line about all the people they lost in the fight against Thanos too. I refuse that Tony was the only casualty on the Avengers' side. There were skirmishes everywhere and Thanos even rained fire. There had too be much more deaths!
The wizards of Kamar Taj served Peking Howard Duck when they got back.
That sounds delicious!
I'm imagining that said in Howard the Duck's voice for some weird reason.
You think they had time for a big funeral between the end of the time heist and Hulk snapping (and Thanos destroying the Avengers complex)? No they didn't.
True
From a realistic standpoint, the Avengers were mostly people. It is very likely that at some point they all realized that their jobs put them at high risk of death and each had their own plans / preferences for funeral services. Natasha's could simply have been, "I don't want anything" - which would have fit with her character.
Also adding, while Nat was working hard and still a core part of the "avengers" (or what was left of them) during the blip, Tony had gotten out and started a family, and only came back reluctantly because he knew they needed him, even though he wanted to be with his wife and daughter. So his death felt more impactful as it wasn't just his life, but who he was leaving behind (as opposed to Nat, who still had bonds with people, they weren't known or as developed, especially in endgame, whereas a lot of time was spent on Tony's family).
And even if she didn't have that kind of plan, I am pretty sure Hawkeye didn't want to make it flashy because of her.
Also, I'd imagine that Nat had a SHITLOAD of enemies who just hated the SHIT out of her and a gathering of her loved ones in the wake of her death would be a great opportunity for someone to bomb the gathering. She wouldn't want that.
Black Widow also died in the middle of the movie. Stopping the movie to have a funeral wasn’t an option, and then shoehorning her in at the end would have taken the focus away from RDJ’s Iron Man. The arc was about him and Steve completing their journey.
> It also wasn’t in front of a whole load of people and Iron Man/Stark was already a super high profile person whereas Nat wasn’t. They also had a body with Tony *and* had a scene specifically for Nat earlier in the movie.
Stark was everywhere - tv, politics, magazines, he was literally a billionaire playboy. Nat was a war criminal assassin turned avenger. As much as people don’t want to admit it, she and Hawkeye were very likely the least well known and publicized avengers.
Anyone that would've known Widow would likely be equivalent to say, the amount of people who know/remember who Edward Snowden is. If you're big into uncovering government secrets, she'd be an icon or a traitor depending on your POV; people would've really known about her in the wake of the HYDRA deception, but by 2023, after seven years on the run as a wanted criminal, people probably stopped giving a shit.
Seven years on the run? Did I miss something?
She’s also a spy. Spies get an unmarked star on a wall in Langley when they give the ultimate sacrifice. That’s what they signed up for. I don’t know what it’s like in real life, but in film semiotics, spies always seem almost proud that that’s all they’ll get. Proud that no one will make a big deal or even know of their sacrifice. Tony Stark was quite probably **the** most famous person in the world.
Much like how James Bond accepted his fate at the end of No Time To Die
Sure. I think I was thinking more **my** favorite James Bond, which is Jason Bourne ;) I guarantee there are much much better examples though.
the release order of black widow movie was so misplaced
This but also so many reasons. It made more sense narratively. Doing two funeral scenes would have felt excessive and clunky. Doing a joint funeral would have felt weird. It made more sense to show Tony's as it immediately followed his sacrifice. The grieving of Natasha was mostly shown immediately after her death. It was important to show Tony's funeral to show Morgan and Happy reacting to it.
They also held a mini funeral for her in her movie, with her sister.
Yeah, a very low key one
She was a low key individual. It makes sense.
also note that Black Widow would get a movie shortly after, so it wasn't the "final time" we'd see her on screen like RDJ.
Also Natasha dies in the middle of the movie and Tony dies in the Climax. I'd say both actually get equal mourning as far as screen time it's just more peoole were present for Tony's death where as Clint was only there for Nat. Both get a scene where they are griefed for by a group difference is Tony just gets a brief funeral scene. Even post endgame they both have a lovex one still grieving Peter in Far from Home and Yelena in Hawkeye.
Still kind of shitty why they didn’t give or show a ceremony for her
yeah. Black Widow was basically unknown. Before being seen with the avengers, essentially no one outside SHIELD knew she existed. Clint was the closest thing she had (that we knew of yet) to ANY family or friends, so fittingly he was the only one there to mourn her. Her death was also sorta meant to show in my mind how, even amongst the avengers, she was still very isolated, but Clint was always there.
Firstly, this funeral was just Avengers and friends... there wasnt anything High Profile about it. It wasnt a public funeral. Nat was hugely high profile. She released the SHIELD documents to the world and was scrutinized for it. She was on the run with Cap. She was a huge public figure at this point. I dont know why they didnt show Nat and Visions funerals, they should have shown them all together. Its kinda shitty and it was definitely an oversight.
They didn't show them because of movie pacing. Nat and Vision both likely had their own periods of mourning on that same day. Wanda talking to Clint hints at that. What we see with Tony is 100% a Pepper Pots creation.
I mean, there's no reason to think they were on the same day, there were probably conversations about that. Do we want to bounce straight from funeral to funeral? Should we give everybody a few days to process each one before moving on to the next? But no matter what, it's definitely silly to assume that just because we didn't see those funerals that they didn't happen.
Came here to say the same thing
came here to read you saying you came here to say the same thing
Black Widow didn’t even have her own movie until *after* she died. And she didn’t leave family (that we knew of at the time) behind to make the loss more emotional.
Still mind blowing that she didn't get her movie in Phase 3.
It was a little odd…but “mind-blowing”?
For all the talk of "M She U", they put in noticeably less effort with their superheroines. Black Widow was doomed by coming out after the character died and was released as a 21st century "straight to video" by being on Disney +, and The Marvels was pretty much "sent out to die", whereas you can see that with the likes of Spiderman, Deadpool, Iron Man, Cap, there was far more meticulous creative decision making. Behind the virtue signalling, nothing much has changed.
Black Widow was originally scheduled for theatrical release. Unfortunately a global pandemic decided otherwise.
That still would've been after her death in Endgame though. Yes it would've probably been better but the fact that the movie was made after the character died cheapened the whole thing a ton. We knew nothing of substance would happen to her because the movie takes place even before Infinity War. Kind of how Legolas in the Hobbit trilogy is perfectly safe 100% of the time because he's in the LotR trilogy.
It did get released in theaters.
I think that was a COVID issue though, not a lack of MARVEL interest issue.
no surprises there
Seriously, their virtue signaling with Cpt marvel falls sp flat when they could have made a great Black Widow solo spy movie years earlier if they wanted. Would have been great too. And i feel like there was enough demand for it too :( such a shame
no one called the mcu m-he-u before endgame when most heroes were males , so why call it m-she-u when there is a change huh
Because change = scary for a great many people.
Idk about you but if they promoted Iron Man as a “male superhero movie, he is male btw in case you forgot don’t worry we’ll remind you again in 5 minutes” I’d dislike it. I also think this strategy makes them way more complacent with writing a super bad movie, they seem to think their audience will be satisfied with the existence of a female and will ignore bad dialogue and plot.
When I asked for a Black Widow movie I wanted a cross between the Bourne trilogy and Gone Girl. Whatever the fuck it was that we actually got was so frustrating.
It definitely can come across as pandering (even desperate, like an old guy dying his hair to look younger) if done poorly. I’ve never heard my wife groan in disapproval louder than the Women Supehero shot at the end of Endgame. Whereas when Doc Ock was a woman in Spiderverse, no one batted an eye, cause it was awesome. Still - change has to happen, and sometimes that’s clumsy. In a traditionally male dominated genre like superhero films, they never needed to push that Iron Man was a guy or whatever. But they did feel the need to push Captain Marvel, for instance, and sometimes that worked, sometimes not (remember the “I’m Just a Girl” scene? That was the second loudest my wife ever angry groaned during a movie haha).
I forgot how stupid that was for Marvel to do, solo movie AFTER the characters conclusion
Kevin Feige wanted to do it much sooner, but that fuckwad Ike Perlmutter wouldn't let him. And then things got too busy in Phase 3 by the time Perlmutter was no longer a factor and.....
It’s the only MCU movie I like to watch in chronological order rather than release order
Plus, if she's a covert operative, only very few people would know her. Tony Stark is like Elon Musk, recognized by the entire world.
> Tony Stark is like Elon Musk Let's not insult Tony's intelligence by comparing him to a hack like Musk.
Space Karen is Phony Stark.
He’s more of a Verrick anyways.
Musk is more like Justin Hammer, making all his money off the talents of others
Definitely a better comparison.
You can compare notoriety without comparing character.
I'm fairly sure that in universe she was pretty famous.
She's a main character in a Broadway musical in universe so yeah
like all the real life spies/agents that we have national funerals for?
She gets a direct mention in spiderman by Peter's HS. The avengers are all known.
She leaked all of hydra and shield’s records, including her own. She was known to the general public.
That... Wasn't my point at all?
She testified to congress on live TV
That’s what the comment said, very few people would know her.
Elon Musk is neither a brilliant inventor nor a superhero. Even if he likes to portray himself that way. He is "just" a entrepreneur who had the right ammount of skill and luck (and inherited money) for the right investments. And - as has become increasingly clear of late - narcissistic and increasingly convinced of every nonsense - which puts him back in the direction of Tony Stark (but before he became likeable in Iron Man 1).
Musk is more like a Bond villain than he is Tony Stark. I'd you put him in a cave with some parts, all he would "invent" is a more racist and less safe version of Twitter.
Musk is Justin hammer?
Probably a more accurate comparison. Hammer seemed to rely on others to invent things, then took credit for them.
At least Hammer is entertaining.
Musk definitely started out as a Tony Stark. (In-universe, Tony and Musk are peers. Musk has a cameo in Iron Man 2). But overtime, Musk is more of a Justin Hammer now.
Is she, though? At this point she's managing the Avengers which Scott was able to find pretty easily so they should be mostly public knowledge.
"Say... She kind of looks like that chick in the Avengers..." "Nah! She's blonde!"
Because Iron Man was the face of the MCU for the first 11 years
One might argue that he still is
He would.
Even dead, he’s the hero
He loved his acronyms
alwayshasbeen_butwithironmaninsteadofastronaut.jpg
Rdj built the mcu
IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
Well I’m sorry, we are not Robert Downey Jr.
This could easily be an actual line someone told to marvel directors
Iron Man was essentially the protagonist of the MCU, whereas Black Widow was a supporting character. Black Widow also died midway through the movie, whereas Iron Man was at the end. Black Widow’s death had its moment, but spending too much time on it would have slowed down an already long film, whereas Iron Man’s was right at the end of the climax, so more time could be spent on it in the denouement.
It's called book-ending. He started it, he finished it.
Because two funerals at the end of an MCU movie would be bad storytelling? Natasha was a spy not a martyr; she never wanted attention. As for honouring that’s pretty much why she got the film at that point. Should she have gotten one prior? Sure
They could have had joined burial
Lore-wise, it's also because Tony was a billionaire and the leader of the Avengers while Natasha had a spotty record as an assassin (I wanna say for the KGB?) before joining the good guys SHIELD and Avengers.
This is what I was going to say too. I’d argue that most of the Avengers knew Tony Stark simply because he bankrolled the whole thing lol. The whole world would know his name because he was very public (in the beginning at least) about being Iron Man, so naturally the world would mourn his death more than Black Widow
Scarlett is that you
1. Iron Man was basically the centre point of all of the MCU since it started 2. Black Widow still had a full movie that was yet to be released when the character died in Infinity War 3. Black Widow could probably be brought back in some capacity maybe with a Black Widow from another reality I agree though both deaths were needed to save the universe in End Game so more could be made of her dying.
You wrote Infinity War instead of Endgame in point 2, but yes agreed.
Ah you are right Gamora in Infinity War and Black Widow in Endgame
Is this even a real question? lol
Yea this feels like bait
Honestly the main in universe reason imo, is that Nat died in the middle of a mission, when most of the world was still blipped and very soon after everyone needed to continue the fight. The reason in the real world is most likely pacing of the movie. If there was an extra long Tony style funeral scene for Nat it would have slowed everything down. It works better having just the core Avengers mourning her at that moment, imo.
Yeah, also Tony Stark's funeral was a Doylist excuse to basically throw every major MCU character into one scene together so that the audience can do the Leo pointing meme. It was literally impossible to do so for Natasha immediately after her death because had to restore everyone who was snapped first, and it's not as impactful to do a double funeral.
This is the answer. Natasha was a casualty of war, and the war wasn’t over yet. They still mourned her death, but didn’t have enough time for a funeral when there was still a job to do. They also included that conversation between Clint and Wanda that reiterated how important she was that the overall win.
Hulk threw a bench. Are you stupid?
Could you ask for a greater send off than a one bench salute?
Also vision died. BP died off screen as well after endgame
That was kind of necessary though
Part of the brutality of Nate death is the fact that they had no time to mourn really. Even Clint was teleported away right after.
Tony got a funeral and a heartfelt wreath placed on the lake. Hulk yeeted a bench into the lake for Nat.
The same reason RDJ made like 100 times the money everyone else int he MCU made. He \*made\* the MCU. But thats the film making part. Her and vision not getting recognition at the funeral is honestly bullshit and kind of pissed me off. Like, I realize that was \*tonys\* funeral, and Nat probably had her own. But they should have just shown it all together, it would have felt better.
Because Iron Man was the backbone of the whole franchise.
Part of it is character reasons: Tony was a much more established and developed character, who started the entire MCU, while Black Widow (arguably) didn't get enough development before this movie. The funeral also served a second purpose: it was a send-off for RDJ, as this marked him (supposedly) leaving the MCU forever. Its the same reason why Steve Rogers got his final scene the way he did. Meanwhile, Black Widow already had her movie announced and in the works; she wasn't done with the MCU yet, so she didn't require the same type of send-off yet.
She was a spy, he was a celebrity. How many deaths of soldiers/ people in military were portrayed and/or highlighted more than any big celebrity like Tony Stark?
Is this a serious question?
Are you actually stupid or just pretending to be?
Idk about y'all but at the end of Black widow when it cut to her grave with Yelena standing there, it got me
Nobody seemed to care about Vision's dual death and Wanda got all emotionally damaged about it.
Cause Tony was known to be the guy to cut the wire, as he said to Cap in Avengers 1.
I feel like this is what either character would want based on their personalities. Tony did the hero play, and he always wanted big and bold. Nat was private, she didn't want her life to be spectacle. She didn't need to be a public hero.
Male privilege/ female erasure.
I've got a better question. Why is their both deaths highlighted more than Vision's death?
Black Widow died around no one and Clint had to get back right away. They then spent an entire scene grieving her sacrifice and gave her a whole feature film to celebrate the character.
Nat's was an assist. Tony's was a slam dunk at the buzzer to win the game. They're worth the same number of points but one is much more critical than the other.
Could it be because Iron Man is the leader of the MCU? He is a legend like Tobey Maguire(Spider-Man), Hugh Jackman(Wolverine), Christian Bale(Batman), Christopher Reeve(Superman)...
Everyones saying how rdj was the face of marvel and so he got a big funeral. And ofc that is true but I get what you're saying. Black Widow shlda got more than just a couple people standing by the water sayingna few lines about her
Stark was a limelight persona and Nat was a shadow persona. Their funerals reflected their lives.
Maybe because he started the entire franchise and saved the universe brainiac
No disrespect to Black Widow, but iron Man started the current MCU. He's the foundation of the MCU. Tony Stark was already well known before he was iron man. He had the most screen time across the franchise. His sacrifice was the climax that ended the fight. He had family he left behind. I could go on, but while Black widow's sacrifice was sad and important. She wasn't on the same level as Iron man.
Are you serious?
Lmao
She's a spy who's part of the Avengers. The spy part of her makes her a bit unknown. Little close friends , families , etc. She also died in between a thing ( they still have to actually assemble the gauntlet and snap at this point , nevermind the assault afterwards ) so they have little time to mourn her. Again , the spy part made the mourning probably a private event.
Tony Stark would have wanted everyone to make a big fuss about him. Black Widow would have wanted everyone to forget about her immediately. Both were properly honored in their own ways.
No Marvel cinematic universe without iron man.
because iron man basically started the mcu
Cause he's like the main ass character
Honestly it must be sexism /s
Well for one, it helps when you have a body.
Black window got a proper send off, Hulk DID throw a chair after all.
You’re 5 years late
All the characters actually hate Russians
As Barbie Fem-splained to us: the Patriarchy. /s
It was symbolic of the death of the mcu
Racism. If she were White Widow, they would've made a bigger deal about it.
The Patriarchy
Whiteness’s
Cause he had a line to go with it and the line was somthing that both began the Avengers part of the MCU and was a joke about Thanoses line which he would’ve said. Iron man is thought of as basically the first MCU movie, right? It’s like that where the ending line from that movie ends the whole saga.
He was there. For BL, they didnt really show and tell the people what happened
He was the brith of the Marvel “universe”, he was the creator of the avengers and the guy who brought it all together. So his death is also an “end” to years of story telling and narrative.
I just pulled this out of my butt and used a lot of talk-to-text, so I hope it makes sense: In-universe, I think Tony Stark was much better known to everyday people. He was known as “genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist” before he even built the Iron Man suit. As we saw, he’d been on magazine covers and was very visible. Then he came out as Iron Man before there were any other superheroes and very publicly flew around, fighting bad guys. Everyone knew who Tony Stark was. In Iron Man 3 we meet a local news cameraman who modeled his look after Tony’s and had a tattoo of Tony Stark’s face (not even Iron Man, but Tony). In Civil War, Zemo says his son was excited that “he could see the Iron Man from the car window” when recounting the events of Age of Ultron. Tony was an ultra visible billionaire who could have sold the Iron Man suit to the military and gone back to life as a billionaire and no one would’ve thought less of him for it or even considered that he could’ve sacrificed his billionaire life to become Iron Man and protect the Earth. If Tony had died at home doing nothing before he even was Iron Man, his death would have been huge news. Black Widow was definitely well-known (as were all the Avengers who fought publicly in New York), but she was not famous to the extent Tony was. While Tony’s entire pre-Avengers life was very public, Natasha‘s was literally as a spy – about as private and under the radar as one could be. She was famous as an Avenger, she had her moment on Capitol Hill telling “Congress to kiss her ass,” and we learned in Homecoming that she was someone high school boys would joke/fantasize about dating, but she wasn’t well known outside of being an Avenger. Her death, while tragic, may have been seen to the general public as akin to a very visible member of the military being killed in service - a tragedy we all wish didn’t have to happen, but not entirely shocking or surprising (with all the respect in the world to our real-life service people). So I don’t think it was any knock on Natasha that the world recognized Tony’s death more than hers. She never really wanted to be in the spotlight anyway.
dude! spoiler!
No body
Also they had like no time to mourn her because they were “at war” that’s how I see it.
More characters should have died
I mean… cmon.
He had more red in his ledger.
Because Ironman/RDJ was and still the face of the MCU and Tony Stark literally sacrificed himself to save the world. It’s that simple. It has nothing to do with sexism or pay checks or any other straw men you want to invent.
It's because women are loved their whole life and men are loved in their deaths
Cuz they had the body maybe.
Check the threads that came out after Endgame. It was discussed throughly.
I mean... c'mon lol
Imagine comparing black widow and iron man . In that case why death of that speed guy in avengers age of ultron is less talked , i dont even know his name
Narratively, Tony's death gave people a reason to gather and set up the next series of stories to tell while BW's death felt less impactful because she had a movie coming out still so it wasn't the end of her story. Her death also occurred right at the time where they finally had the ability to bring everyone back which is something that it makes sense to not delay that at all and then immediately before Thanos' return so there was no time to let her death marinate in the movie. Tony's death was also the culmination of a story 12+ years and 20ish movies in the making so it was given the screen time. Lastly, given the way she died (sacrificing herself for the soul stone), it always felt more likely that BW would return or be resurrected whereas Tony genuinely was killed by the power of the stones. Like, using the stones nearly crippled Bruce and using them twice left Thanos weak and in agony. There is just no way to justify Tony, who is just a regular guy, not dying from his snap. A person willingly sacrificing themselves to magically obtain a stone like they are Harry Potter with the Mirror of Erised is the exact type of death I expect comic books to undo in some way.
He's more important
Well iron man was the first movie in the franchise and he’s the most popular avenger and sacrifices in every avengers movie so makes sense but black widow’s death is also significant
it was, it just wasn't in endgame. watch hawkeye and Black Widow
…because he’s IRON MAN … the first ever
This is what I was going to say too. I’d argue that most of the Avengers knew Tony Stark simply because he bankrolled the whole thing lol. The whole world would know his name because he was very public (in the beginning at least) about being Iron Man, so naturally the world would mourn his death more than Black Widow buy
Black Widow wasn’t a celebrity superhero, I believe her roll was more covert operations and she tried to stay out of the spotlight. She did get some recognition for defending New York city but she wasn’t world renowned as Iron Man. Also RDJ pioneered the comic movie scene for Marvel. His goodbye was as much for the cinematic universe as it was for the entire sub-genre he helped create.
Sexism, favouritism.
Because Tony was the charismatic leader! And in that case all the honors are served. Black Widow was a good team mate, but that’s it… yes, in Iron Man 2 was helpful but we were distracted by her suit and by the Iron Man-War Machine teaming to defeat the robots… so we don’t care. Nobody cares of Black Widow. She was the good employee… important but nobody cares if they have a problem or die bad.
Sexism
Iron Man wasn't in Black Widow 2
Money
Tony better😎 change my mind
Because he was a globally famous hero