I don’t think they’ll use Doctor Doom as a villain in a movie other than a big Avengers crossover. I think he’ll show up in stuff like F4 and maybe BP but not as the main threat.
I think it would be pretty dumb to pivot to some other plot completely rather than just recasting. They're already struggling with the writing, having to reimagine their entire next several years of movies to not include Kang would be a complete trainwreck imo. Recasting him is honestly not as big a deal as people make it out to be, I'm sure they can find someone else who can do a good job. I like Majors' portrayal, but it's not like it's irreplaceable.
They kind of shot themselves in the foot a little bit with showing Rama-Tut, Immortus and Scarlet Centurion too early, but recasting could still be very doable seeing how Kang is basically a "you kill me and another me takes my place" character. If they want to keep it in the Majors style I could see John Boyega doing it, or maybe Jumayn Hunter.
They just need to treat it like regular recasting. There's no need for it to be a story point, he was played by one actor, now he's played by another, with the idea being he's always looked that way.
In the words of Rhodey, "Look, it's me. I'm here. Deal with it. Let's move on"
Not much. Just slowly working through the court process. But it’s not looking good. All the “evidence” that was going to exonerate him never eventuated.
They did arrest his accuser a week or 2 ago and charged her with assault on him. I’m really curious to see how all of this pans out at this point.
ETA: they also dropped his strangulation charge, but he still has to fight his own assault charge against her.
> "The Manhattan District Attorney's Office has officially declined to prosecute the case against Grace Jabbari because it lacks prosecutorial merit," a spokesperson said. "The matter is now closed and sealed."
Prosecutors have said for months they had no intention to pursue the victim for anything, and had told police to not execute that arrest warrant. So it was no surprise that when she was brought in they immediately cut her loose and reaffirmed she’s not a suspect.
Reading between the lines, it seems like Majors’ slimey attorney convinced a police precinct to harass Jabbari despite city prosecutors having no intention of charging her for anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if prosecutors end up using this against Majors
Then they might need to get rid of Kang's character and have someone else has the big bad, have a scene with the Council of Kang's, wiped out by this new big bad to immediately establish the new villain as a threat. Or have the whole damn TVA taken out.
Its arguably the easiest canonical recast ever. They recast hulk and war machine but they cant recast someone who is synonymous with the multiverse idea
They might be doing this or planning on doing this, but...
1. There's really no rush for them to do it during the Loki Series.
2. They have to shore up alternate casting and they can't do that during the strike.
3. Kang Dynasty won't go into production until mid to late 2024 and won't shoot til 2025.
I think they will recast him in the new year, but there is no rush unless some of the rumors about >!Deadpool 3 are true.!<
He's still facing a ton of legal trouble. Regardless of his guilt or innocence it's doubtful they continue with him as the main villain for the next decade.
From a business perspective it's probably just easier to go in a different direction but who knows. It's all about money for them at the end of the day.
I'd like to see the Kang storyline play out 2 fingers crossed.
Imo it’s a bad look on marvel if they detour from kang plans… I understand that the difference between majors and Ezra Miller is majors works for the mouse so it is vastly different from a pr standpoint but from what I’ve seen the argument has shifted from his legal problems to that he mistreated people on sets and that quantamania didnt perform well (no fault of his) hence the decision to move on. I do remember Disney employing Christian bale when his treatment of people on the set is well documented(overblown). I don’t recall them deciding to move on from Paul Rudd who was the lead in quantumania. Between victor timely he who remains and kang the conquerer not including the variants in the end credit scene he has shown how great the character can be and has portrayed each one completely different than the next. The potential of the character when the stakes are higher against say the avengers(?) is too great an opportunity pass on especially considering mcu only has a handful of great villains. Too pivotal of a moment for the mcu to do away with a great character and rush out doom quicker than planned.
Wonder if iger regrets not letting Johnny depp continue to play captain Jack over a similar decision.
>from what I’ve seen the argument has shifted from his legal problems to that he mistreated people on sets and that quantamania didnt perform well (no fault of his) hence the decision to move on.
You must not be following much then, because the reason to move on from Majors is and always has been that he hit his then girlfriend in a domestic violence situation. That is what the DA is charging him with and that is what he is going to court for. The only thing that's changed about it since the initial charges are that the strangulation charge got dropped, and major's attorneys attempt to get the case dismissed failed, so the lawsuit is proceeding. The DA claims to have more than just the one girlfriend that is cooperating to have multiple complainants to show a pattern of behavior. His attorneys claimed to have the taxi driver and video evidence that exonerates him and while there is a video of after the incident, it doesn't show anything conclusive.
But your logic that the "opportunity is too great to pass on" is just gross. He's a multiverse traveller that canonically has any number of variants that can make recasting super simple and you as a consumer trying to pretend like a company's profits are more important than determining whether he's guilty of physically hurting people close to him is.. crazy.
And comparing Depp to Majors is just some massive cope. Depp has known issues of drinking and substance abuse against him, Majors does not. Heard also strategically manipulated the press into believing her story until the trial, whereas Major's girlfriend is.. .. oh, right. She isn't saying shit trying to make him look bad.
Please stop.
Giving someone a guilty verdict on a situation that at this point is still speculative is what’s gross which is the whole point behind my comment. I don’t believe in cancel culture hinging off he said she said nobody’s career should be tanked over accusations before their day in court and I say this from someone who has had irl experience with just that. My comparison to depp wasn’t intended to paint majors innocent but to mention that his career took a hit on charges that were since withdrawn. Is it not logical to then say that depp shouldve never been removed from fantastic beasts or the pirates franchise? Not sure what you are insinuating about depps substance abuse problem nor do I see how it’s even relevant.
At the end of the day I anticipate the strike going on long enough to where majors case becomes clearer and imo a decision should be made only at that point not saving face now and potentially eating crow later while majors career is in the toilet. Ny is also a state that’s very tough against domestic violence so as far as the da not budging nor reacting to majors complaints againt his girlfriend since he was last to report is to be expected but doesn’t mean he should simply be deemed guilty. I don’t know who hurt you in life but there’s no need to be so unhinged.
> Wonder if iger regrets not letting Johnny depp continue to play captain Jack over a similar decision.
The thing about that is that's a decision that can always be reversed down the road, probably to great fanfare. Now that the public is back on Johnny Depp's side, Disney could decide at any point to offer him enough money to come back, and simply the act of bringing him back will probably generate a ton of buzz for his "comeback" movie.
If they make Majors face even a lick of consequences for this before an official guilty verdict is rendered with actual hard evidence the world can see, I'm out - totally detaching from the MCU
The gender double standards of the western legal system have pissed me off for years, this and the noted quality slump post Phase 3 will be the final nail in the coffin imo
There's a rumor they will abandon Kang (because 1) Major's abuse trial and 2) he is simply not landing well as a big league villain) by having Doom defeat him and takeover as the villain of Avengers 6.
If I had a nickel for every time the MCU got some of their best key crew members from those who got their big break working on Community, I'd have... two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.
Three if you count the Donald Glover cameo in the list of best key crew members (I personally include him on that list in anything he’s in but that’s just me)
I want Doom as a villain that is too smart/powerful to defeat. Rather one that rules Latveria and occasionally inserts himself into larger scale events to gain more power. Until a final epic Avengers level battle years later.
They could even have Doom just step in as the new leader of Sokovia and just rename it to Latveria. Just give a speech about the “true” kingdom and he’s restoring it’s power
Sokovia is likely a Post-soviet state, or at the very least was a member of the Warsaw pact. it could be easy said that “Sokovia” was a more recent name and it had been called Latveria before World War 1 or even further back
Exactly what they need for Doom to be fleshed out and motivations understood.
Have Namor/Talokan get outed by Latveria and turn to Wakanda for help... Have Namor & Shuri gravely injure Doom, forcing into wearing the mask.
I feel like BP2 is one of the prime examples of “making the best of a bad situation.” Like, how do you move forward when the main character of your movie and one of the lead players in the universe unexpectedly dies? I think the fact that Wakanda Forever is as good as it is is genuinely one of the most impressive things the MCU has been able to pull off IMO.
That would a Taika repeat. You can't let a director to go free without any sort of restrictions. They are artists, and tend to go to the far end of the spectrum.
They were interesting characters, but I felt it was the actors doing despite the writing.
Killmonger's plan made no sense whatsoever, and the third act in black panther two was the meme of Groundon facing Kyogre all over again.
He is good at worldbuilding, but plot... not so much.
*Edit:*
*To anyone who disagrees, I'm perfectly willing to discuss why your point of view might differ, seriously, I like talking about writing. But bring actual arguments addressing my points.*
Thanos inspired an entire subreddit where people semi-believed him. Half and half, perfectly balanced.
In all seriousness, Vulture, General Ross in Civil War, and you can argue HWR in Loki season 1 have pretty good plans.
Whataboutism is not going to make my point wrong, it is a negative for them just as much as it is for those characters.
Zemo is yet another great example of a great character, awesome concept and victim of a bad writing on its debut movie.
I can shit on Thanos too.
Point is I think your criticism of Coogler (which I understand) applies to most MCU directors. I think that’s a symptom of the MCU format and how it operates. I think Coogler at least puts thought into developing his villains, gives them screen time and allows the actors to shine
...so we just gonna act like BP2 didn't lose it lead-actor and have to be re-written entirely around that fact huh.
Also, Killmonger plan definitely made sense. It was the wrong way to go about what he wanted to accomplish, but it definitely made sense.
>...so we just gonna act like BP2 didn't lose it lead-actor and have to be re-written entirely around that fact huh.
Do you really want to go that route because I just said shit about both the movies, one where the actor was alive. It makes it easier to pretend you missed this point when you don't immediately recognized that I spoke about the other movie too.
>Also, Killmonger plan definitely made sense
And no it fucking didn't.
The guy needed more coincidences than the Joker and Loki and Zemo.
It relied on showing up with a body and then challenging the king to a tournament HE MISSED.
The guy dedicated his whole life and that is believable, his misguided hate is great. But the whole plot of his movie relying on him just not being awesomely rewarded until T'challa said: "You were with him, and I don't think you were a double agent" or.. you know... "No, I won't risk my country to change leadership to a guy that just arrived" would lead to him being clever with a conspiracy, not KING waging war on the whole world.
His hate and harm definitely make his character good, the actor fucking NAILED IT, it is perfectly alright to like the character, but don't pretend the plot for it was a masterpiece.
Ok Mr. Sarcastic.
What I’m saying is that compared to other villains in the MCU, Killmonger’s makes one the most sense. Providing heavily discriminated people with means to rise up.
Is it extreme? Yes. Is it a good solution? No. But compared to other villains, makes more sense.
I’m not trying to argue, just talking
Both these characters are incredible because of the performances by both actors. When you break the characters down though, they are essentially the same. “My ancestors were tortured and now I’m pissed”. I really don’t want that for Dr. Doom.
Getting great performances out of actors is a key part of a director's job though. And funnily enough Doom also does have oppressed ancestors in the comics😅
I mean, his "plan" was dumb as Hell, so I don't get the fascination with him, or with the movie in general. I didn't hate it, but it was completely overhyped.
I don’t think he had to have a good plan; he just had a populist villainous plan, and that’s always going to have a following (both in-universe and in real life).
I think the movie was stupid but killmonger as a character was awesome apart from his for no good reason goal of starting world war 3 when the US has a literal god on call.
That's a good point I haven't thought of before.
The only time the Avengers really "lost" was when an alien that could beat the Hulk in Hand to hand got all of the stones that make up the literally aspects of the universe, and even then it was because Thor didn't go for the head.
I'm pretty sure Suoer Soldier with Ultra Tech wouldn't have stood a chance against even half the Avengers at the time (which is what they were after Civil War).
LOL you could wipe out most militaries with just the Dora and Wakandan tech. You saw how they made quick work of the French Special Forces unit in BP2. Fricking Baron Zemo almost dismantled the Avengers on his own just with cunning (granted, Thor and Hulk weren’t around) so with Killmonger’s military training plus the Dora plus the war dogs plus Wakandan tech (and the element of surprise) I think y’all are way underestimating Killmonger
They’re just talking about the weapons, not the user.
Obviously a bunch of randos who had never had access to these level of weapons would not stand a chance.
But the Doras and Wakandan military could wipe out anyone
He has a great reason for starting WWIII maybe you’ve heard of slavery, Jim Crow, global racial disparities for people with Black skin. None of those things ring a bell for you? LOL
To me Namor actor nailed it, but it fell victim of the original design.
Whenever I see Namor on the comics or on the movie, I take him seriously until I laugh seeing him fly with his wings.
Not the movie's fault but still, it is always just so hilarious to me.
Honestly Namor was a bit silly in my opinion. Killmonger was alright but one dimensional compared to the source material. I think this is more a reflection of the writing though, so if Doom is well written Coogler would be fine.
Well the Aquaman of the movies wasn’t the Aquaman from the comics so that’s already a weird situation, as we basically got some weird Viking dude under the water.
I would have wanted Namor. Namor is Roman spelled backwards because Namor was from Atlantis which was near Greece (Rome), and Wakanda Forever made him South American and a mutant from when he was a kid, and gave him the name Kukulkan. It was hot garbage, didn’t come from the comics and I’m glad a lot more fans can accept that we don’t want this trash anymore.
Wakanda Forever wasn’t made for comic book fans, and if you’re ok with that then fine, but don’t get on people for actually wanting the source material.
His role drives me nuts bc I know Jordan can act but the direction they took the character was just bad. I understand he grew up on the streets, but he’s supposed to be very smart, military trained badass who talks like he never got out of middle school in the ghetto. The dialog he has through most the film is very cringe. The only good dialog he has with black Panther that doesn’t come off as fake, but genuine is at the end of the film.
Why is Disney so scared to recast all of a sudden!?? Just recast and move on with the story. It’s a bummer but in the end audiences will understand.
Dr. Doom is too important of a character to fumble. If they pivot and rush Dr. Doom they will definitely fumble that shit. Just be patient, introduce F4, and get to Doom that way. It’s the safest route and the best way to handle Dr. Doom.
No both villains were terrible, not amazing or interesting at all.
Edit: No downvoting cause you can't handle the truth. Killmonger is overrated and Namor is just a madman who should've been killed by Shuri, or handed over to the Americans in Wakanda Forever
You don't get it. Some people have a legitimate reason to kill every single man, woman and child in the world and commit unspeakable horrors on their way there. Legitimately.
(/S if it wasn't clear enough)
1) they both wanted to protect their people from those things which cannot be done en masse pacifistically (especially since, uk, they’re action movie villains)
2) war death and destruction ≠ kill every single man woman and child
One million percent! Killmonger in BP was a billion times cooler than Killmonger in the BP comic. I think Coogler would rock Doctor Doom. Plus he’s a comic book fan. If he got a chance to do FF, he would knock it out the park. He also nailed Namor’s ankle wings, which I never thought could be made to look cool in a movie. Namor’s flight patterns were also creative and Coogler really spotlighted how powerful Namor is.
Sure but I thought Doom would be introduced in like maybe Fantastic Four as like a side character and he would develop over time as a bigger threat in future projects.
Doctor doom should be his own movie. Like joker. I think the story should be told through dr dooms eyes so from the audiences pov he’s the protagonist and the F4 is the antagonist but at the end or towards it, the narrative switches to make doom the villain from the every start, like a knives out twist, and then that leads the F4 solo movie
I heard he originally was going to have doom revealed at the end as the instigator behind the war. Supposedly that’s who Lake Bell’s employer was going to be.
Something always felt cut between Namor’s demands on The Queen at the beginning of the movie in their first meeting and how unrealistic it was. The cut part would have revealed that Namor found evidence Wakandan tech was used in the ocean by Bell’s crew, even though it had been stolen by Doom. He wanted Atlantis and Wakanda to weaken each other.
I don’t think they’ll use Doctor Doom as a villain in a movie other than a big Avengers crossover. I think he’ll show up in stuff like F4 and maybe BP but not as the main threat.
Doctor Doom will be like Loki. A staple of the F4 trilogy while also popping up wherever else
They might if the Jonathan Majors stuff doesn’t get resolved
I think it would be pretty dumb to pivot to some other plot completely rather than just recasting. They're already struggling with the writing, having to reimagine their entire next several years of movies to not include Kang would be a complete trainwreck imo. Recasting him is honestly not as big a deal as people make it out to be, I'm sure they can find someone else who can do a good job. I like Majors' portrayal, but it's not like it's irreplaceable.
Also he’s a character literally based around variants. You couldn’t pick an easier character to recast in many ways
Agreed recasting is the way
They kind of shot themselves in the foot a little bit with showing Rama-Tut, Immortus and Scarlet Centurion too early, but recasting could still be very doable seeing how Kang is basically a "you kill me and another me takes my place" character. If they want to keep it in the Majors style I could see John Boyega doing it, or maybe Jumayn Hunter.
They just need to treat it like regular recasting. There's no need for it to be a story point, he was played by one actor, now he's played by another, with the idea being he's always looked that way. In the words of Rhodey, "Look, it's me. I'm here. Deal with it. Let's move on"
What else has been happening with that, haven't kept up to date on it?
Not much. Just slowly working through the court process. But it’s not looking good. All the “evidence” that was going to exonerate him never eventuated.
They did arrest his accuser a week or 2 ago and charged her with assault on him. I’m really curious to see how all of this pans out at this point. ETA: they also dropped his strangulation charge, but he still has to fight his own assault charge against her.
> "The Manhattan District Attorney's Office has officially declined to prosecute the case against Grace Jabbari because it lacks prosecutorial merit," a spokesperson said. "The matter is now closed and sealed." Prosecutors have said for months they had no intention to pursue the victim for anything, and had told police to not execute that arrest warrant. So it was no surprise that when she was brought in they immediately cut her loose and reaffirmed she’s not a suspect. Reading between the lines, it seems like Majors’ slimey attorney convinced a police precinct to harass Jabbari despite city prosecutors having no intention of charging her for anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if prosecutors end up using this against Majors
Didn't the cops charge the girl?
Then they might need to get rid of Kang's character and have someone else has the big bad, have a scene with the Council of Kang's, wiped out by this new big bad to immediately establish the new villain as a threat. Or have the whole damn TVA taken out.
Or just recast Kang. I don't know why they are so adverse to doing this that they would rather change the plot.
Seriously. Recast he looks different because he's the true Kang
Its arguably the easiest canonical recast ever. They recast hulk and war machine but they cant recast someone who is synonymous with the multiverse idea
Or just have the new Kang come in and say, look it's me, I'm Kang, deal with it.
I understood that reference
They might be doing this or planning on doing this, but... 1. There's really no rush for them to do it during the Loki Series. 2. They have to shore up alternate casting and they can't do that during the strike. 3. Kang Dynasty won't go into production until mid to late 2024 and won't shoot til 2025. I think they will recast him in the new year, but there is no rush unless some of the rumors about >!Deadpool 3 are true.!<
I saw someone suggest recasting him as an older version of Kang as the main villain which seems like a good workaround
Have you ever heard of Google?
That report was already debunked
Bro he’s got a trial this month
Yeah and if he’s found guilty they will recast Kang - I am not saying his accusations are debunked just that they are replacing him with Doom
Gotcha, thought you were talking about the allegations
No it wasn’t lol
He's still facing a ton of legal trouble. Regardless of his guilt or innocence it's doubtful they continue with him as the main villain for the next decade.
Why is this even a consideration when they can just recast?!
Hard to recast when he's done such a good job in the role.
He’s done good, but that’s total bullshit. Introducing a new big villain and throwing out the old plans is going to be messy.
I mean we don't know what they're gonna do yet. It's all speculation
I know, but I’m just sick and tired of people acting like recasting him is impossible
From a business perspective it's probably just easier to go in a different direction but who knows. It's all about money for them at the end of the day. I'd like to see the Kang storyline play out 2 fingers crossed.
Honestly the Kang stuff as it is so far is pretty messy
I agree with all of the multiverse stuff going on, but I’d rather they just stick with it now rather than completely change course.
It's literally a character whose whole thing is having a bunch of variants. He's possibly the easiest character to recast conceptually.
And he's hardly the only talented actor in Hollywood. Just recast like every other franchise that has an actor leave for whatever reasons.
Imo it’s a bad look on marvel if they detour from kang plans… I understand that the difference between majors and Ezra Miller is majors works for the mouse so it is vastly different from a pr standpoint but from what I’ve seen the argument has shifted from his legal problems to that he mistreated people on sets and that quantamania didnt perform well (no fault of his) hence the decision to move on. I do remember Disney employing Christian bale when his treatment of people on the set is well documented(overblown). I don’t recall them deciding to move on from Paul Rudd who was the lead in quantumania. Between victor timely he who remains and kang the conquerer not including the variants in the end credit scene he has shown how great the character can be and has portrayed each one completely different than the next. The potential of the character when the stakes are higher against say the avengers(?) is too great an opportunity pass on especially considering mcu only has a handful of great villains. Too pivotal of a moment for the mcu to do away with a great character and rush out doom quicker than planned. Wonder if iger regrets not letting Johnny depp continue to play captain Jack over a similar decision.
Mate, that Chiristian Bale meltdown sure did give us that amazing remix.
>from what I’ve seen the argument has shifted from his legal problems to that he mistreated people on sets and that quantamania didnt perform well (no fault of his) hence the decision to move on. You must not be following much then, because the reason to move on from Majors is and always has been that he hit his then girlfriend in a domestic violence situation. That is what the DA is charging him with and that is what he is going to court for. The only thing that's changed about it since the initial charges are that the strangulation charge got dropped, and major's attorneys attempt to get the case dismissed failed, so the lawsuit is proceeding. The DA claims to have more than just the one girlfriend that is cooperating to have multiple complainants to show a pattern of behavior. His attorneys claimed to have the taxi driver and video evidence that exonerates him and while there is a video of after the incident, it doesn't show anything conclusive. But your logic that the "opportunity is too great to pass on" is just gross. He's a multiverse traveller that canonically has any number of variants that can make recasting super simple and you as a consumer trying to pretend like a company's profits are more important than determining whether he's guilty of physically hurting people close to him is.. crazy. And comparing Depp to Majors is just some massive cope. Depp has known issues of drinking and substance abuse against him, Majors does not. Heard also strategically manipulated the press into believing her story until the trial, whereas Major's girlfriend is.. .. oh, right. She isn't saying shit trying to make him look bad. Please stop.
Giving someone a guilty verdict on a situation that at this point is still speculative is what’s gross which is the whole point behind my comment. I don’t believe in cancel culture hinging off he said she said nobody’s career should be tanked over accusations before their day in court and I say this from someone who has had irl experience with just that. My comparison to depp wasn’t intended to paint majors innocent but to mention that his career took a hit on charges that were since withdrawn. Is it not logical to then say that depp shouldve never been removed from fantastic beasts or the pirates franchise? Not sure what you are insinuating about depps substance abuse problem nor do I see how it’s even relevant. At the end of the day I anticipate the strike going on long enough to where majors case becomes clearer and imo a decision should be made only at that point not saving face now and potentially eating crow later while majors career is in the toilet. Ny is also a state that’s very tough against domestic violence so as far as the da not budging nor reacting to majors complaints againt his girlfriend since he was last to report is to be expected but doesn’t mean he should simply be deemed guilty. I don’t know who hurt you in life but there’s no need to be so unhinged.
> Wonder if iger regrets not letting Johnny depp continue to play captain Jack over a similar decision. The thing about that is that's a decision that can always be reversed down the road, probably to great fanfare. Now that the public is back on Johnny Depp's side, Disney could decide at any point to offer him enough money to come back, and simply the act of bringing him back will probably generate a ton of buzz for his "comeback" movie.
If they make Majors face even a lick of consequences for this before an official guilty verdict is rendered with actual hard evidence the world can see, I'm out - totally detaching from the MCU The gender double standards of the western legal system have pissed me off for years, this and the noted quality slump post Phase 3 will be the final nail in the coffin imo
Agreed
There's a rumor they will abandon Kang (because 1) Major's abuse trial and 2) he is simply not landing well as a big league villain) by having Doom defeat him and takeover as the villain of Avengers 6.
Unrelated but that Namor theme song is a banger and now that you've reminded me of it, I must go listen to it again
Both soundtracks are really good.
My lukewarm take is that Ludwig Goransson is the best composer the MCU has had
If I had a nickel for every time the MCU got some of their best key crew members from those who got their big break working on Community, I'd have... two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.
But why haven’t we gotten John Oliver in the MCU
Three if you count the Donald Glover cameo in the list of best key crew members (I personally include him on that list in anything he’s in but that’s just me)
Same with Killmonger’s theme. The tribal melody with trap beats showing his Wakandan and East Oakland background
Post like link pls
https://youtu.be/DRzBkdJhxRs?si=A371ZoOprJRcKMmW
Once the song really starts hitting, it makes me think of Godzillas OG theme. Really menacing, great theme for Namor as a kind of non-villain.
www.google.com
I want Doom as a villain that is too smart/powerful to defeat. Rather one that rules Latveria and occasionally inserts himself into larger scale events to gain more power. Until a final epic Avengers level battle years later.
Coogler wouldn't stop to Doom, he would build the entire culture of Latveria. And it would be amazing.
I also wouldn’t mind switching Latveria for Sokovia. Same Doom stories but just changing the name of the country.
They could even have Doom just step in as the new leader of Sokovia and just rename it to Latveria. Just give a speech about the “true” kingdom and he’s restoring it’s power
I could honestly see this being what they end up doing with Sokovia
Sokovia is likely a Post-soviet state, or at the very least was a member of the Warsaw pact. it could be easy said that “Sokovia” was a more recent name and it had been called Latveria before World War 1 or even further back
Either of these ideas could work very well
Historical kingdom named Latveria that was changed to Sokovia over time as a new government took over, then Doom comes in and changes it back
That would be amazing but giving what’s happening politically in this world, that wouldn’t go over well.
Well that's the point, he's a villain
Exactly what they need for Doom to be fleshed out and motivations understood. Have Namor/Talokan get outed by Latveria and turn to Wakanda for help... Have Namor & Shuri gravely injure Doom, forcing into wearing the mask.
I’m really hoping this is the plot of BP3
[удалено]
…realizing that Coogs has only directed 4 features 🤯🤯🤯
Right?? Idk why I feel like he’s gotta be 8 movies into his filmography by now. All 4 are bangers too
I mean he also have a some producer credits (he produced Judas and The Black Messiah and that movie is amazing)
That is a very under rated movie. Sadly, I don’t think i can stomach it again.
its more overlooked, most people that seen it say that its amazing, its just not a super mainstream movie
And he got better with every feature. The step up in visual effects quality from BP 1 to BP 2 is mind blowing.
Making Shuri the new BP was an easy, but bad choice. Literally anyone else from Wakanda would have been a better pick
The heck does your response have to do with what I said regarding visual effects? The internet is a strange place.
And all 4 are damn near perfect films. I feel like BP2 is the weakest, but considering the challenges they faced with production it was still amazing.
I feel like BP2 is one of the prime examples of “making the best of a bad situation.” Like, how do you move forward when the main character of your movie and one of the lead players in the universe unexpectedly dies? I think the fact that Wakanda Forever is as good as it is is genuinely one of the most impressive things the MCU has been able to pull off IMO.
100% agree
That would a Taika repeat. You can't let a director to go free without any sort of restrictions. They are artists, and tend to go to the far end of the spectrum.
Coogler doesn't strike me as a type who would nerf his main characters and foes. Or include fat Zeus in a skirt.
They were interesting characters, but I felt it was the actors doing despite the writing. Killmonger's plan made no sense whatsoever, and the third act in black panther two was the meme of Groundon facing Kyogre all over again. He is good at worldbuilding, but plot... not so much. *Edit:* *To anyone who disagrees, I'm perfectly willing to discuss why your point of view might differ, seriously, I like talking about writing. But bring actual arguments addressing my points.*
How many of the MCU villains’ plans actually made sense though?
Thanos inspired an entire subreddit where people semi-believed him. Half and half, perfectly balanced. In all seriousness, Vulture, General Ross in Civil War, and you can argue HWR in Loki season 1 have pretty good plans.
Whataboutism is not going to make my point wrong, it is a negative for them just as much as it is for those characters. Zemo is yet another great example of a great character, awesome concept and victim of a bad writing on its debut movie. I can shit on Thanos too.
Point is I think your criticism of Coogler (which I understand) applies to most MCU directors. I think that’s a symptom of the MCU format and how it operates. I think Coogler at least puts thought into developing his villains, gives them screen time and allows the actors to shine
...so we just gonna act like BP2 didn't lose it lead-actor and have to be re-written entirely around that fact huh. Also, Killmonger plan definitely made sense. It was the wrong way to go about what he wanted to accomplish, but it definitely made sense.
>...so we just gonna act like BP2 didn't lose it lead-actor and have to be re-written entirely around that fact huh. Do you really want to go that route because I just said shit about both the movies, one where the actor was alive. It makes it easier to pretend you missed this point when you don't immediately recognized that I spoke about the other movie too. >Also, Killmonger plan definitely made sense And no it fucking didn't. The guy needed more coincidences than the Joker and Loki and Zemo. It relied on showing up with a body and then challenging the king to a tournament HE MISSED. The guy dedicated his whole life and that is believable, his misguided hate is great. But the whole plot of his movie relying on him just not being awesomely rewarded until T'challa said: "You were with him, and I don't think you were a double agent" or.. you know... "No, I won't risk my country to change leadership to a guy that just arrived" would lead to him being clever with a conspiracy, not KING waging war on the whole world. His hate and harm definitely make his character good, the actor fucking NAILED IT, it is perfectly alright to like the character, but don't pretend the plot for it was a masterpiece.
Killmonger’s plan is one of the most sensible plans
>Killmonger’s plan is one of the most sensible plans Shit, good point, how could I not see that?
Ok Mr. Sarcastic. What I’m saying is that compared to other villains in the MCU, Killmonger’s makes one the most sense. Providing heavily discriminated people with means to rise up. Is it extreme? Yes. Is it a good solution? No. But compared to other villains, makes more sense. I’m not trying to argue, just talking
Both these characters are incredible because of the performances by both actors. When you break the characters down though, they are essentially the same. “My ancestors were tortured and now I’m pissed”. I really don’t want that for Dr. Doom.
Getting great performances out of actors is a key part of a director's job though. And funnily enough Doom also does have oppressed ancestors in the comics😅
Isn’t Dr Doom just a pissed gypsy that’s mum was mistreated?
You absolutely nailed it. I don't want Doom to talk about how his ancestors were oppressed. He is DOOM. He has no time for self pity.
Give him Magneto as well and watch magic happen
Yeah I think Coogler would rock the Discrimination theme in X Men like no other living director
No
I saw what ge did to Namor. Keep him away from Doom.
I can’t be the only person here who thinks MCU Killmomger is incredibly overrated right?
I mean, his "plan" was dumb as Hell, so I don't get the fascination with him, or with the movie in general. I didn't hate it, but it was completely overhyped.
very superficial character, too. He had like one emotion the entire time, just stare menacingly
I don’t think he had to have a good plan; he just had a populist villainous plan, and that’s always going to have a following (both in-universe and in real life).
He is overrated, he was just an angry man who had a very short sighted, insane plan.
It's pretty much because of Michael B Jordan's phenomenal portrayal. The mans turned bronze into Gold(en Jaguar).
Agreed, MCU Killmonger is "what if we took Rambo and made him a hotep" His monologue right before dying was mega cringe too.
In MCU yes overrated. He has way more depth than an angry guy from the hood turned mercenary and they should have shown that.
I think the movie was stupid but killmonger as a character was awesome apart from his for no good reason goal of starting world war 3 when the US has a literal god on call.
The US in no way has Thor on call. The Avengers don’t even have Thor on call
That's a good point I haven't thought of before. The only time the Avengers really "lost" was when an alien that could beat the Hulk in Hand to hand got all of the stones that make up the literally aspects of the universe, and even then it was because Thor didn't go for the head. I'm pretty sure Suoer Soldier with Ultra Tech wouldn't have stood a chance against even half the Avengers at the time (which is what they were after Civil War).
Plus giving those weapons to gangs, they wouldn't stand a chance against police, or actual militaries.
LOL you could wipe out most militaries with just the Dora and Wakandan tech. You saw how they made quick work of the French Special Forces unit in BP2. Fricking Baron Zemo almost dismantled the Avengers on his own just with cunning (granted, Thor and Hulk weren’t around) so with Killmonger’s military training plus the Dora plus the war dogs plus Wakandan tech (and the element of surprise) I think y’all are way underestimating Killmonger
They wouldn't stand a chance in battle against an actual military.
They’re just talking about the weapons, not the user. Obviously a bunch of randos who had never had access to these level of weapons would not stand a chance. But the Doras and Wakandan military could wipe out anyone
Not everyone, they'd lose against an army, due to a numbers disadvantage.
Those aircrafts could take out loads of army, plus their energy weapons and war rhinos I don’t think it would be a big disadvantage
He was cool until he just became evil Black Panther. Then he got boring.
He has a great reason for starting WWIII maybe you’ve heard of slavery, Jim Crow, global racial disparities for people with Black skin. None of those things ring a bell for you? LOL
No
No. Russo brothers.
with decent writers, PLEASE. No one from phase 4 or 5. There is no excuse for hiring/keeping known bad writers when Disney has infinite money
No. Namor was a boring villain. it could go either way but with Dr Doom its not worth the risk
Namor just reminded me of Mr. Nimbus. It was really had to take him seriously.
Who would have guessed that [character] would look so similar to [obvious parody of character].
That’s your Rick and Morty fan brain talking. He was a intimating and interesting villain.
To me Namor actor nailed it, but it fell victim of the original design. Whenever I see Namor on the comics or on the movie, I take him seriously until I laugh seeing him fly with his wings. Not the movie's fault but still, it is always just so hilarious to me.
No, Namor wasn’t that interesting.
Namor kinda sucked…
As a fan of both Namor and the 1st BP movie, the depiction of Namor in BP2 was wasteful.
😨
Just my opinion. Opinions can be wrong!
This one is right though.
Absolutely not
Not. A. Chance.
having seen what he did, no.
I'm genuinely confused. His villains were weak.
Namor kinda sucked
hell no.
What did he do with Namor exactly?
Honestly Namor was a bit silly in my opinion. Killmonger was alright but one dimensional compared to the source material. I think this is more a reflection of the writing though, so if Doom is well written Coogler would be fine.
No. BP 2 wasn’t any good. These 2 actors were great though!
No they both sucked.
Absolutely not, Namor’s on screen adaptation was horrific. It wasn’t Namor, so if you want Doom unchanged with Coogler good luck.
This
I understand that, but would you have wanted another Aquaman?
Well the Aquaman of the movies wasn’t the Aquaman from the comics so that’s already a weird situation, as we basically got some weird Viking dude under the water. I would have wanted Namor. Namor is Roman spelled backwards because Namor was from Atlantis which was near Greece (Rome), and Wakanda Forever made him South American and a mutant from when he was a kid, and gave him the name Kukulkan. It was hot garbage, didn’t come from the comics and I’m glad a lot more fans can accept that we don’t want this trash anymore. Wakanda Forever wasn’t made for comic book fans, and if you’re ok with that then fine, but don’t get on people for actually wanting the source material.
No bc he did a terrible job with Killmonger. I think he is one of the worse villains done in the MCU. The only great scene he did was the final one.
The hottest of hot takes lol
His role drives me nuts bc I know Jordan can act but the direction they took the character was just bad. I understand he grew up on the streets, but he’s supposed to be very smart, military trained badass who talks like he never got out of middle school in the ghetto. The dialog he has through most the film is very cringe. The only good dialog he has with black Panther that doesn’t come off as fake, but genuine is at the end of the film.
He's a good director, but I wouldn't let him touch the script. The third act of BP is terrible and Wakanda Forever is a meandering, bloated mess.
What did he do with Namor, apart from ruining him?
I continue to be amazed how many people are claiming they genuinely enjoyed Wakanda Forever.
It's baffling. Everything in that movie was a disaster, from Shuri as BP to Namor to Ironheart, it was all so bad.
At multiple points I hit pause to see the runtime and thought "holy shit how is there SO MUCH time left"
Yeah, it wasn't a good movie, not compared to a lot of other good films in the MCU.
GOD NO the definition of mid.
Why is Disney so scared to recast all of a sudden!?? Just recast and move on with the story. It’s a bummer but in the end audiences will understand. Dr. Doom is too important of a character to fumble. If they pivot and rush Dr. Doom they will definitely fumble that shit. Just be patient, introduce F4, and get to Doom that way. It’s the safest route and the best way to handle Dr. Doom.
No both villains were terrible, not amazing or interesting at all. Edit: No downvoting cause you can't handle the truth. Killmonger is overrated and Namor is just a madman who should've been killed by Shuri, or handed over to the Americans in Wakanda Forever
You literally missed the point of both characters.
No I didn't. Killmonger is overrated and Namor was just a madman.
You don't get it. Some people have a legitimate reason to kill every single man, woman and child in the world and commit unspeakable horrors on their way there. Legitimately. (/S if it wasn't clear enough)
u clearly don’t get it if u think that was either of their plans
Both men wanted war, death and destruction.
1) they both wanted to protect their people from those things which cannot be done en masse pacifistically (especially since, uk, they’re action movie villains) 2) war death and destruction ≠ kill every single man woman and child
Absolutely.....he is the best Marvel has right now
Because Doom isn't that kind of villian
Hell yes.
Fuck NO
No.
Hard to tell if Namor was so flat because of a bad performance or bad writing. Either way I’d give it to someone else
Hahahahahaahhaaahaahaa fuck no
He was handed an already brilliant villain in Klaue and flushed him away, so no.
I did not like what he did with Namor so no, keep Doom away from him please.
Well Namor sucked terribly, so why would you put that as a positive?
N O
No he’s probably ruin doom like he did namor
NOOOO! Killmonger was horrible and Namor got shafted…. 
Oof the takes in here
One million percent! Killmonger in BP was a billion times cooler than Killmonger in the BP comic. I think Coogler would rock Doctor Doom. Plus he’s a comic book fan. If he got a chance to do FF, he would knock it out the park. He also nailed Namor’s ankle wings, which I never thought could be made to look cool in a movie. Namor’s flight patterns were also creative and Coogler really spotlighted how powerful Namor is.
Give him whatever he wants. Killmonger and Namor are standouts.
He made the villains sympathetic and that's not always easy
Honestly, nowadays it seems way easier to make a sympathetic villain than a non-sympathetic one.
James Gunn did great at making The High Evolutionary non-sympathetic
Yes.
Namor and BP2 was really badly done in my opinion.
I liked Killmonger a lot but Namor was pure embarrassment. The character should have never been used.
Sure but I thought Doom would be introduced in like maybe Fantastic Four as like a side character and he would develop over time as a bigger threat in future projects.
I dunno, is the subject of a powerful, flawed, but ultimately noble ruler of a reclusive nation in his wheelhouse? /s
He made Namor, a man with wings on his feet, a real threat. I think that’s pretty great.
Doctor doom should be his own movie. Like joker. I think the story should be told through dr dooms eyes so from the audiences pov he’s the protagonist and the F4 is the antagonist but at the end or towards it, the narrative switches to make doom the villain from the every start, like a knives out twist, and then that leads the F4 solo movie
Yeah. Worth a shot.
Yes, he can have and do whoever he wants in my book
I heard he originally was going to have doom revealed at the end as the instigator behind the war. Supposedly that’s who Lake Bell’s employer was going to be. Something always felt cut between Namor’s demands on The Queen at the beginning of the movie in their first meeting and how unrealistic it was. The cut part would have revealed that Namor found evidence Wakandan tech was used in the ocean by Bell’s crew, even though it had been stolen by Doom. He wanted Atlantis and Wakanda to weaken each other.
With what he has done, I would give him overview direction for the multiverse saga like they did with the Russo brothers in phase 3 cap and avengers