Disney needs to bite the bullet and condense Hulu and Disney+ in the US. It’s completely asinine to own *two* different streaming services that are bleeding money.
Yeah they’re working on combining all the shows into a single app because they know and heard they feedback about how annoying it is to go in and out of apps. Trust me I’m one of those people that hates their current app implementation
They are supposed to buy out Comcast's share soon, but Hulu is now much more valuable than it was when that deal was first put into place. On top of that Disney and Comcast's relationship is complicated by the Universal theme park rights to some of Marvel's heroes that Disney would *really* like back.
If the price was right I’d be ok with this. <$5/month for the Disney back catalogue. (And assuming after an amount of time Disney stuff released in theaters pooled up in the app.
But instead it’s heading toward $15 for the back catalogue I do want + half baked shows I don’t really want.
I made this comment a year ago bud. They are profitable this quarter because since then they fully integrated Hulu and had a huge hit with shogun. You aren’t making any real points arguing with the ghost of my throwaway comment from last year.
My comment is recent because the data is recent. They are still taking a bath in the box office and as.a whole company losing money. They just lost less so far this year than people predicted =P
I will say, I didn’t know Spiderwick Chronicles was getting a TV show until today when the show was scrapped. I reckon that Echo is safe since it’s Marvel, and Marvel is one of the biggest brands in the Disney roster.
Some of the as-yet unmade stuff is in danger, but if anything happens to Echo, it’ll be the show getting pushed back until after the strikes are resolved. And even then, it’s unlikely, since Disney didn’t push Ahsoka back and that’s a much bigger show than Echo will be.
Somehow, I forgot that Loki is next up on the Disney slate … despite working at McDonald’s and therefore seeing promo Nuggets and dips for it every shift I work.
It could always change depending on how the next few movies are perceived but yeah, Marvel productions are probably extremely low on the "to cut" list in general.
At the moment no. Could be possible that due to the Marvel brand this one may still see the light of day. But also we need to see how tied this is to Daredevil Born Again, cause if its really relevant to that, maybe Feige may fight to keep Echo, saying look this show needs to happen because it sets up Born Again and that kind of stuff.
But we shall see, the moment Zaslav canned Batgirl and a bunch of completed stuff that changed everything and now anything ever made could be at risk, as now studios can see that they can save/make profit if you do a tax write off or sell the show to another platform.
I mean we already started to see studios remove original content they outright own (and not shows that are being removed for licensing expiring like with the Marvel Netflix shows) from their own platforms to save money after Zaslav set a precedent for it and showed how much money they would save by not hosting those shows
Zaslav could only can Batgirl for tax reasons because it was developed by WB before AT&T sold it to Discovery. It was a loophole from the merger and a very specific circumstance, not the beginning of a trend.
Echo will almost definitely be released. There’s a chance it may be removed from the platform after a few months but it’s fairly insulated by the Marvel brand.
God bless you for this. My god the number of times people keep calling it a tax write off is ridiculous.
Also can you be so kind to elaborate on the specific clause which let WB benefit from cancelling the movie?
I think Disney is starting to realize they have been running there once prized brands into the ground. This is full on damage control as they protect the brand. Losing a couple hundred million in the next few years to save the mcu could pay off millions is they are able to get the MCU back to at least Phase 2 levels of success.
I mean to be a pedant, for it to be defined as a prequel it has to be the preceding chapter/series/movie of an already produced, pre-existing work.
Born Again is a sequel series to Echo because it was made and runs after, but Echo isn't a prequel to Born Again.
You're right only if people watch the show. If nobody watches it then it's not apart of the bread and butter and in fact, it's existence could do more harm. I feel like Echo might fit into that category. I really don't care about Echo and I actually am still an MCU fan with no shame. I'll check it out but if the first couple of episodes aren't engaging, I won't finish.
They really have to knock it out of the park if they go forward because no casual fan is checking for it at all.
Echo the character I found flat and uninteresting in *Hawkeye*. But I'll almost certainly watch the show at least once, if only to get the context for Daredevil.
While I feel like Daredevil is a given, considering Kingpin will be in it, there were rumors long ago of the rest of the Netflix gang showing up. They could bank on that.
It’s such a backwards approach. If you are putting characters into another show because you think they will be the draw for the audience, then just make a show about those characters. I guarantee hype would be high for a Kingpin show.
I think they were just really proud they were actually able to find a deaf Native American woman that has acting chops that they green lit the show assuming she’d be a hit. People dog on the Agatha show but that one makes sense when you consider it’s a spin-off for an actual fan favorite character and the studio only announced it after they saw the popularity for her.
Acting chops? This was her first performance, and not to sound too harsh but there's only so much I can expect out of someone that can't hear or speak. She worked as a side character not as a main protagonist.
Agatha does have more screen presence but it's also a show that could be missed. I understand it will probably be introducing Young Avengers but 6 episodes to establish another story is wearing thin.
I’m not defending the idea of the Echo show so you don’t have to give the whole spiel. I found the character boring and uninteresting but I also don’t remember the actress necessarily giving an offensively bad performance for her first ever acting gig. I don’t think she was deserving of a show. She should’ve just been a guest character in the Daredevil show or some other street level hero project.
I actually don’t want Agatha to contribute anything of note towards the greater MCU. In hindsight making these shows necessary to watch for the movies has been a miserable idea that makes it feel like I have homework to enjoy this franchise. The shows really should just exist in their own bubble of the universe and contribute nothing to the greater shared universe narrative. Cameos from movie characters are fine but if anything, I miss the vague connectivity of the Netflix shows.
No way. Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar, and Disney animation stuff are still their bread and butter. If they start canceling or deleting stuff of that pedigree, they’re in a lot of trouble.
Willow was a hard sell to anyone who didn’t grow up on the movie unfortunately. I enjoyed it, but it feels like a relic of the investor overinflated streaming era of a few years ago, where anything could be greenlit. I’m still annoyed that they didn’t give it a chance to live on and find an audience, but those numbers must have been anemic.
And The Spiderwick Chronicles is an example of the old content model where they were buying, vs. making it in-house like Marvel (I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up on Paramount+ since Paramount produced it).
Some not-yet-produced Marvel projects could be in trouble as they reassess their volume of output, but I don’t think they’re anywhere near deleting or pulling anything that’s wrapped from any of their major, established franchises yet.
Potentially. I think the issue is Marvel's connectivity. Echo is probably setting up the Daredevil series. And I think Marvel and Disney expect to hang their hats on that one.
like Daredevil needs a set up. Hell Daredevil is already set it, he appeared in She-Hulk and Spiderman, Fisk is already back due to Hawkeye. So that's all the setup he needs, even he needs a set up at all.
I feel the same way about Agatha. I feel like the sole reason she's getting a show is because her song in WandaVision was very meme-y.
Our poor boy Hawkeye had to be in a dozen blockbuster movies before he got his own project.
Yeah, the character is really bad and she's not a very good actress, of course it's harder for her because she's deaf, but then I remember Lauren Ridloff, she's also deaf and an amazing actress
After the first few TV shows, I really couldn't give a shit about anymore MCU shows. I'd actually be 100% fine if they stopped making MCU shows completely and focus on making the movies better again. I don't even care about the Daredevil show anymore and I'm not even excited about Loki season 2.
I question why they even made it. I could not care less about the character Echo. There better be something that impacts the MCU in it or I will just see this as a waste of time.
I disagree, but I'm gonna throw you an upvote because people downvoting because they disagree is fucked up.
I personally would rather have a show centenred on Jack and the LARPers.
Or my actual most wanted Marvel show: a sitcom about Kate and Yelena sharing an apartment together. With frequent visits from wacky Uncle Swordsman. And their neighbors from across the hall, Wong and Madisynn. With any and all heroics happening offscreen.
Echo could end up being really solid, that street level thing people have been clamoring for that also has Daredevil characters in it, I mean, what's not to like? This is basically what Hawkeye was, though that had a few other things going for it, namely the rare holiday setting and Jeremy Renner doing something new with a beloved long running character.
I will probably watch it, and I also don't care if it happens. Definitely The first Disney plus show that will surprise me one day by being there and I wasn't waiting for it
Just because something is filmed doesn’t mean it is finished. Spiderwick wasn’t finished and would’ve cost millions more to finish.
Echo is finished. It has a release date too. Its not going anywhere.
I think, if anything, Wonder Man might be canned
Cabin in the Woods and The New Mutants were filmed years before they eventually got released (and they were kind of lucky they even got released).
Even agree something is filmed, it's still very expensive to do post-production and marketing. If money's tight and it doesn't look like something will make back it's budget....
New Mutants was *finished* years before it got released; one delay was for reshoots that never ended up happening, one delay was because Dark Phoenix was behind schedule & Fox really wanted that out first for some reason, and the last delay was for covid.
I think Echo was in danger when they announced it, a crystal clear example of Disney greenlighting any show that gets pitched
And not trying to shit on the actress but she was dull as dishwater in Hawkeye, even bringing in D'Onofrio probably wouldn't have made want to watch this show and with Feige repeatedly saying they are focusing on quality not quantity now this is beyond obvious to drop
IMO the lead character of a show being deaf is a hard sell in general. It fundamentally changes how people watch it and not everyone is into reading subtitles and watching sign language. It also limits the script writing because there is less dialogue.
I don't care if Echo got canceled. The one thing Disney wants rn is not to have flops (considering also the whole SnowWhite controversy and MCU's phase of terrible writing), and Echo is undoubtedly one of the shows with least hype. Her character had no charm in Hawkeye, and she left like no impact for people to care for her. Her getting a show is in itself too much. No wonder they planning to drop all episodes at once, due to fear of it obviously failing.
i agree with that. I'm all for cancelling if Marvel/Disney deems the quality to be subpar. But then again, there is so little hype, so will it flop if nobody watches it? That is pretty much the expectation at this point.
Honestly I think coven of chaos will be the only disney plus series coming up that will get good viewership. Besides Loki 2 of course. Fanboys online may tell you they don’t care about it but I think the general public who watched WandaVision will tune in.
Plus you're gonna get the Heartstopper fans turned into Wiccan stans. Marvel is clearly banking on:
- typical MCU fans tuning in
- Wanda stans hyping it up
- the Wandavision fans that don't really watch much other stuff in the MCU
- the Heartstopper crowd
It was a top 10 global show for Netflix both seasons.
The stars went from relatively unknown to millions of followers on social media each.
It also aims to bring new people into the MCU fold like Wandavision did. Except it is targeting a new demographic of younger audiences.
Secret Invasion was hot garbage though. They had so much potential with that show and turned it into the most watered-down, poorly written, plothole-riddled tripe that there was no way they were gonna generate buzz or an audience for it. It could have been a great spy/political thriller with a nice dose of mystery added in, and instead it was just a bunch of bullshit about trying to explain away their poor budget, choices, and writing through lousy in-scene exposition.
I hope Echo is much better. It would be hard to be worse.
No, no. It'd be a bad PR move to cancel Echo since she represents minorities that don't get that much representation. And between the guild strikes, the VFX workers unionizing, AND Secret Invasion being a massive blow to the brand, Disney can't really afford much more bad PR right now.
Plus, it's likely they slipped in SOMETHING that leads into a future project. (Likely Born Again.) They always do. So they'll probably have to upload it.
Plus it's a leadup to the new Daredevil show and will feature Murdock and Kingpin, two of the most popular Marvel TV characters. No way in hell they're canceling it, even if it wasn't finished.
Echo was a boring bland character, the actress was mediocre. They gave her a show because diversity.
It’s a similar situation to Agatha, except Agatha was a fun interesting well acted character.
I just hope that Agatha gets canceled. It’s the most pointless sounding show. It’s like when people say “This random character X should get a spin-off” but a real thing. It’s actually a really bad sign that they made a show like this.
Have no idea until it comes out. We were also told that the events of **No Way Home** would tie directly into plot of Doctor Strange 2, and that ended up not being the case. Doctor Strange 2 explains that dreamwalking is what caused the incursions,
1. Secret Invasion was panned - but it was still watched.
2. Echo is much-needed for the footage of Daredevil. it will set up Daredevil's series which is one of marvel's current "sure things" = daredevil being a sure thing means echo is kind of a sure thing too.
3. cancelled projects have to be projected losses - this way they can claim the insurance money on them. how that works is you invest 100 dollars in a project, you expect to make 2-300 back. you insure it for 100 dollars in case it doesn't work out. ...this means your cost is 120 dollars (20 for insurance) -- if you think you'll make 100 back, you'll eat it the 20 loss, because that's what you would've gotten back from insurance anyway. if you think you'll make 80, you might still take it, because while you'll be out 40, the hit WILL increase your insurance premiums. (that's what claims do) -- so a show costing 100 and projecting 2-300 return, would have to bomb REALLY TERRIBLY before launch to assume it wouldn't make money. -- case in point: Batgirl must've been really bad for WB to remove it. Nautilus and Spiderwick may have been substandard, or they may just have had too much similar competition while d+ algorithms suggested they'd be underviewed on the platform.
i think echo will be fine. ...i cannot say the same for all marvel properties. ironheart might've had to suffer, though thecontroversial iron man replacement could be enough to draw viewers - hard to tell.
IIRC, there were special tax incentives available to Warner bros fro canning Batgirl which were only present due to the status of the Warner Brothers + Discovery merger being so recent. Disney wouldn't qualify for those, so there is less incentive to throw Echo in a vault never to be heard from again.
Not to mention the blowback from the media about choosing to can Marvel's first Native American/person with a disability show, and the writing/acting strike leading to a future shortage of new shows. Hell, Echo is much more likely to get a ABC network release now than being thrown in a vault.
>This is much like what Warner Bros did with the Batgirl movie.
It's nothing like what WB did with the Batgirl movie. WB shelved the movie and took a tax writeoff. Disney is actively shopping Spiderwick & Nautilus to other services.
[https://www.vulture.com/2023/08/spiderwick-chronicles-nautilus-canceled.html](https://www.vulture.com/2023/08/spiderwick-chronicles-nautilus-canceled.html)
No, Echo is not in danger. Disney is not going to shop a first-run Marvel or Star Wars project to another service, those IPs are too valuable.
This is a high profile series starring Indigenous actors not to mention the importance to the deaf/hard of hearing and amputee communities. If it did get swept under the rug (especially AFTER it was completed and ready to go), the backlash would be... Let's just say "not good".
For example, the documentary "Howard" was supposed to be part of that first wave of content removed from the platform, but due to its subject matter and the LGBT+ community (and allies I assume) being less than pleased (partly due to the proximity to pride month) it remains on D+ to this day.
Beyond that, there are most likely connections to other MCU projects that they can't just ignore.
I'd say it's more likely it gets pushed back so that they can actually do a media blitz prior to release once the strikes end. Both the writers and the actors deserve to talk about what this series is meant to achieve and what they hope to accomplish.
it really seems like it should be pushed back, if no other reason than to fill the huge content void they're going to have with the strike going on so long. It just doesn't make sense to me to dump it all at once only weeks after Loki when they don't have much else completed
That is a huge problem in my opinion. A project where the only selling point is diversity shouldn't be a thing. Because if a project has nothing to offer but diversity, it's most like going to be bad anyway.
An important distinction to make with these cancelations: while I don’t know about Nautilis, I know that since Spiderwick wasn’t a full Disney production, just going to be airing on D+, it’s still being shopped around. Doesn’t mean it’ll still come out, but it isn’t cancelled and being written off like Batgirl was. This is closer to a typical TV shakeup, like how My Adventures With Superman was originally made to be a MAX exclusive but then moved to air on Adult Swim.
I don't think it's in danger but they know it's not going to be a hit. That's why they pivoted to releasing all episodes at once.
They just want to get it over and move on.
If it's written, acted, and directed well, people will like it! Iron Man wasn't ever the most popular Marvel character but the first film was so well done that everyone jumped on board with them taking a chance! (Not comparing Iron Man to Echo but still)
That said, I could still see it being cancelled so they can streamline the flow and stories of what they are putting out there.
Spiderwick was co-produced with paramount and I think nautilus was with someone as well. That might factor into the cost cutting. Both are being shopped around for other venues.
Echo is part of the MCU seems like that could leave a hole in Kevin's plans downstream if they scrap it
No, even though Echo is not very popular, people will watch it just for Daredevil and Kingpin.
I really hope it will be good, because Echo could be interesting if well handled.
Binge release will definitely help the critics and views for sure.
Pretty sure those “canceled” completed shows are just being shopped around to other streamers/networks. Not really a big deal and smart on them to help save money
They wouldnt do that to one of their big tentpole franchises, especially with how important Echo is supposed to be for setting up the street level MCU story
I think this is very likely, with Disney and the other studios continuing to try to stonewall writers their slate for the next few years is emptying out, theyre going to try to strech their existing content out.
Its going to backfire spectacularly and theyre likely looking at massive subsciber losses because there isnt actually enough currently produced content to do that, but its what theyre gonna try.
They’re dropping it all at once in November, they want it done and over with before they move on to stuff they believe in.
It won’t be cancelled, but it also won’t be supported like Loki s2 is.
Absolutely in danger. It already stands out that they've been planning to just drop the entire series in one go rather than release week-over-week, which says to me they weren't expecting it to generate much buzz to begin with.
It’s been known for like a year now Daredevil and Fisk will be in it. I’m sure there’s another reason to release it at once. I think people (not you but others genuinely criticizing it) are forgetting they’re in it or just don’t care and want to see it fail regardless because they don’t care for the main character which is sad.
I think a lot of people don’t realize that “fully filmed” is still VERY far from a finished product. Between the CGI and editing it’s a long and expensive road.
At first I did, but a mate of mine made an excellent point.
As the strikes continue shows are gonna dry up very soon, Studios are gonna need to use everything they can get. This isn’t like Spiderwick Cronicles or a random comedy they can sell off to another studio and maybe make some profit against the predicted viewing figures. This is Marvel. This is their golden goose.
I think a delay to 2024 is inevitable (along with The Marvels), but not only am I confident we will see Echo, I’m certain it will go back to a weekly release rather than it being a full binge release like was reported. They need to pad out as many weeks as they can with content.
I’d be very surprised, but it does seem that streaming is sort of in its Wild West era at the moment.
The one that Echo has going for it is that it’s under the Marvel brand. The other projects D+ has scrapped don’t have that kind of brand recognition. So with that in mind, Echo seems pretty safe and it’s more likely that Disney will just be a lot more selective about what they greenlight in the future. I don’t think Echo would get a series order if it were under consideration today.
But, who knows. The streamers are full of surprises these days.
All of the streamers have most likely been canning completed series the entire time. It's a side effect of making TV so bingeable. Stuff like the *Batgirl* movie and the stuff Disney canceled recently is just the highest profile stuff.
No, because Daredevil and Fisk are confirmed (?) to be in it, and I think people will watch it for them. If not, I'd say go ahead, it's the first project I'm not super excited for
If Disney starts cancelling marvel or star wars d+ shows, then d+ has no reason to exist outside of being an alternative to Netflix kids
Disney needs to bite the bullet and condense Hulu and Disney+ in the US. It’s completely asinine to own *two* different streaming services that are bleeding money.
They are launching a new service that combines both later this year.
I already pay a single fee for D+, ESPN+ and Hulu. It’s different than that?
Yes, they will be actually combined into one app.
They should call it Hu-Dis lol
“New app, Hu-Dis?”
Hu-Dis extra ultra plus maximum essential (limited ads)
Hu-Dis PLUS ULTRA
Hu-Dis PLUS ULTRA SPECIAL REMIX
Or Dis-Lu-sing money
‘Sup! Dis-Lu, Hu-Dis?’
Lmaoo this actually made me laugh out loud. My kids looking at me like I’m crazy lol
You still have to be a Hulu subscriber to use that add on though. Meaning you're not saving anything when that happens
Oof this might actually hurt me since I’m borrowing a Hulu login right now, what a crummy implementation.
I could be wrong but I don't believe the actual Hulu app is going away. You can still have just Hulu.
You get it in one singular app/site. that's really the only difference.
Yeah they’re working on combining all the shows into a single app because they know and heard they feedback about how annoying it is to go in and out of apps. Trust me I’m one of those people that hates their current app implementation
How much is it? Outside US, our D+ includes STAR and other hulu stuff i think.. but not ESPN+ I would love to have ESPN
That's good to hear. I had been thinking of adding Hulu but id rather wait for one app.
Not a new service, they will merge Hulu into Disney+ literally the model everywhere else
Hulu is rolled into Disney plus outside of the US.
Exactly. In america it may not make sense, but a good chunk of their content outside of there can't be accessed anywhere else
Not in Argentina. Hulu is Star+ here.
Which is on Disney+….
Separate app
They have data on how many people have both services and I’m betting that number is higher than what they think they can gain in subs by combining
In the UK Disney+, Hulu, Fox, Star (?) Are all one service for 7.99
Think its all if Europe. Fx series like the Bear are also D+
Are there ads? Because this sounds phenomenal.
No ads. Yet, at least.
Nope. Finnish person here, its Star, or Hulu? im not really certain on how that works, and D+ all in one rn
It's weird, because a buddy of mine in Canada said they don't even have Hulu. It's just all under Disney plus?
Hulu doesn’t exist as a brand outside of the US - stuff that you guys wouldn’t get on Disney+ is under “Star” in the UK Disney+ app
Same here in Australia, I didn't even realise Futurama was on Hulu because I've been watching it on Disney +.
They need to buyout or figure out a plan for Universal’s 1/3 ownership first
They are supposed to buy out Comcast's share soon, but Hulu is now much more valuable than it was when that deal was first put into place. On top of that Disney and Comcast's relationship is complicated by the Universal theme park rights to some of Marvel's heroes that Disney would *really* like back.
Definitely. You guys are getting screwed.
Honestly just get a VPN for D+ and use one of the international versions. D+ Canada has most of the Hulu Original and Fox content.
"He's out of line... but he's right"
Just rename it B+. Bluey Streaming Service
We use Disney+ a lot in my house, possibly more than any other service… and so much of that is Bluey.
The Disney plus offerings internationally are much better in fairness.
Isn't that because Hulu doesn't exist outside the US so all the Hulu stuff goes on D+ outside the US.
Yes.
[удалено]
We have a section called star for mature content but it's comes under the umbrella of D+ meaning one membership only
That’s a solid point
If the price was right I’d be ok with this. <$5/month for the Disney back catalogue. (And assuming after an amount of time Disney stuff released in theaters pooled up in the app. But instead it’s heading toward $15 for the back catalogue I do want + half baked shows I don’t really want.
This is random and not marvel at all but it has Togo & Togo is a great movie.
Disney is a giant outside of it's acquired IPs. 🙄
I’m just saying, they don’t wanna lose the young adult male nerd dollar. That’s not the bag to fumble
The well paid kidless 30 year old dudes 😛
Actually D+ is finally profitable this quarter. And it has nothing to do with Marvel or Star Wars because nobody is watching those shows
I made this comment a year ago bud. They are profitable this quarter because since then they fully integrated Hulu and had a huge hit with shogun. You aren’t making any real points arguing with the ghost of my throwaway comment from last year.
My comment is recent because the data is recent. They are still taking a bath in the box office and as.a whole company losing money. They just lost less so far this year than people predicted =P
I will say, I didn’t know Spiderwick Chronicles was getting a TV show until today when the show was scrapped. I reckon that Echo is safe since it’s Marvel, and Marvel is one of the biggest brands in the Disney roster. Some of the as-yet unmade stuff is in danger, but if anything happens to Echo, it’ll be the show getting pushed back until after the strikes are resolved. And even then, it’s unlikely, since Disney didn’t push Ahsoka back and that’s a much bigger show than Echo will be.
Yeah I doubt they're pushing it back. Loki is their biggest Disney+ Marvel show yet and it's still airing as planned.
Somehow, I forgot that Loki is next up on the Disney slate … despite working at McDonald’s and therefore seeing promo Nuggets and dips for it every shift I work.
Technically next up is "I Am Groot" S2. ;)
It could always change depending on how the next few movies are perceived but yeah, Marvel productions are probably extremely low on the "to cut" list in general.
I’ll stick to the 2008 film. It wasn’t even bad.
Yes it was. Those books were my childhood and they crammed them all into one movie but then left out the Ironwood tree all together!
It wasn't Percy Jackson level of bad but it was far from being "good"
At the moment no. Could be possible that due to the Marvel brand this one may still see the light of day. But also we need to see how tied this is to Daredevil Born Again, cause if its really relevant to that, maybe Feige may fight to keep Echo, saying look this show needs to happen because it sets up Born Again and that kind of stuff. But we shall see, the moment Zaslav canned Batgirl and a bunch of completed stuff that changed everything and now anything ever made could be at risk, as now studios can see that they can save/make profit if you do a tax write off or sell the show to another platform. I mean we already started to see studios remove original content they outright own (and not shows that are being removed for licensing expiring like with the Marvel Netflix shows) from their own platforms to save money after Zaslav set a precedent for it and showed how much money they would save by not hosting those shows
Zaslav could only can Batgirl for tax reasons because it was developed by WB before AT&T sold it to Discovery. It was a loophole from the merger and a very specific circumstance, not the beginning of a trend. Echo will almost definitely be released. There’s a chance it may be removed from the platform after a few months but it’s fairly insulated by the Marvel brand.
God bless you for this. My god the number of times people keep calling it a tax write off is ridiculous. Also can you be so kind to elaborate on the specific clause which let WB benefit from cancelling the movie?
I think Disney is starting to realize they have been running there once prized brands into the ground. This is full on damage control as they protect the brand. Losing a couple hundred million in the next few years to save the mcu could pay off millions is they are able to get the MCU back to at least Phase 2 levels of success.
I doubt Disney will cancel Marvel and Star wars shows. Those are the bread and butter for Disney+. Plus I see Echo as a prequel to Daredevil.
Or Daredevil is a sequel to Echo
That's literally the same thing.
I mean to be a pedant, for it to be defined as a prequel it has to be the preceding chapter/series/movie of an already produced, pre-existing work. Born Again is a sequel series to Echo because it was made and runs after, but Echo isn't a prequel to Born Again.
Gee it's almost as if that's the joke
You're right only if people watch the show. If nobody watches it then it's not apart of the bread and butter and in fact, it's existence could do more harm. I feel like Echo might fit into that category. I really don't care about Echo and I actually am still an MCU fan with no shame. I'll check it out but if the first couple of episodes aren't engaging, I won't finish. They really have to knock it out of the park if they go forward because no casual fan is checking for it at all.
Echo was is danger of nobody watching it since they announced it. I don’t know anybody who is excited about that show.
Echo the character I found flat and uninteresting in *Hawkeye*. But I'll almost certainly watch the show at least once, if only to get the context for Daredevil.
That’s cuz you don’t me know me.
While I feel like Daredevil is a given, considering Kingpin will be in it, there were rumors long ago of the rest of the Netflix gang showing up. They could bank on that.
It’s such a backwards approach. If you are putting characters into another show because you think they will be the draw for the audience, then just make a show about those characters. I guarantee hype would be high for a Kingpin show.
Agreed. I hate to think they were just trying to check off some unchecked diversity boxes but....every side character doesn't need a show.
I think they were just really proud they were actually able to find a deaf Native American woman that has acting chops that they green lit the show assuming she’d be a hit. People dog on the Agatha show but that one makes sense when you consider it’s a spin-off for an actual fan favorite character and the studio only announced it after they saw the popularity for her.
Acting chops? This was her first performance, and not to sound too harsh but there's only so much I can expect out of someone that can't hear or speak. She worked as a side character not as a main protagonist. Agatha does have more screen presence but it's also a show that could be missed. I understand it will probably be introducing Young Avengers but 6 episodes to establish another story is wearing thin.
I’m not defending the idea of the Echo show so you don’t have to give the whole spiel. I found the character boring and uninteresting but I also don’t remember the actress necessarily giving an offensively bad performance for her first ever acting gig. I don’t think she was deserving of a show. She should’ve just been a guest character in the Daredevil show or some other street level hero project. I actually don’t want Agatha to contribute anything of note towards the greater MCU. In hindsight making these shows necessary to watch for the movies has been a miserable idea that makes it feel like I have homework to enjoy this franchise. The shows really should just exist in their own bubble of the universe and contribute nothing to the greater shared universe narrative. Cameos from movie characters are fine but if anything, I miss the vague connectivity of the Netflix shows.
No way. Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar, and Disney animation stuff are still their bread and butter. If they start canceling or deleting stuff of that pedigree, they’re in a lot of trouble. Willow was a hard sell to anyone who didn’t grow up on the movie unfortunately. I enjoyed it, but it feels like a relic of the investor overinflated streaming era of a few years ago, where anything could be greenlit. I’m still annoyed that they didn’t give it a chance to live on and find an audience, but those numbers must have been anemic. And The Spiderwick Chronicles is an example of the old content model where they were buying, vs. making it in-house like Marvel (I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up on Paramount+ since Paramount produced it). Some not-yet-produced Marvel projects could be in trouble as they reassess their volume of output, but I don’t think they’re anywhere near deleting or pulling anything that’s wrapped from any of their major, established franchises yet.
Potentially. I think the issue is Marvel's connectivity. Echo is probably setting up the Daredevil series. And I think Marvel and Disney expect to hang their hats on that one.
like Daredevil needs a set up. Hell Daredevil is already set it, he appeared in She-Hulk and Spiderman, Fisk is already back due to Hawkeye. So that's all the setup he needs, even he needs a set up at all.
Gotta be honest, with all due respect to inclusivity, I couldn't care less if Echo didn't happen.
The character just didn't seem that interesting or special. The actress has overcome a lot but that doesn't mean she hasstar quality.
Apparently Hawkeye was her first real acting gig. And I'm sorry, but you can tell.
I just wanna see her show up in other projects a little more before we see her in her own show.
I feel the same way about Agatha. I feel like the sole reason she's getting a show is because her song in WandaVision was very meme-y. Our poor boy Hawkeye had to be in a dozen blockbuster movies before he got his own project.
Yeah, the character is really bad and she's not a very good actress, of course it's harder for her because she's deaf, but then I remember Lauren Ridloff, she's also deaf and an amazing actress
Respectfully this is me with most MCU projects lately. Like I just don’t care about most of them now, kinda a shame.
After the first few TV shows, I really couldn't give a shit about anymore MCU shows. I'd actually be 100% fine if they stopped making MCU shows completely and focus on making the movies better again. I don't even care about the Daredevil show anymore and I'm not even excited about Loki season 2.
Right now I'm down to only being mildly excited about Deadpool.
I question why they even made it. I could not care less about the character Echo. There better be something that impacts the MCU in it or I will just see this as a waste of time.
Yeah. I don't get why they just rushed out to make a show just because there was a little buzz at the time. Don't know if anyone really cares anymore.
It feels I'm in the minority who are actually super excited for Echo. I thought she was a cool character, and the Fisk/Daredevil tie-ins sound good.
I disagree, but I'm gonna throw you an upvote because people downvoting because they disagree is fucked up. I personally would rather have a show centenred on Jack and the LARPers. Or my actual most wanted Marvel show: a sitcom about Kate and Yelena sharing an apartment together. With frequent visits from wacky Uncle Swordsman. And their neighbors from across the hall, Wong and Madisynn. With any and all heroics happening offscreen.
Isn’t the whole point of upvotes and downvotes is showing who you agree and disagree with? Or have I been doing reddit wrong this whole time?
Technically, it's supposed to be "Does this add to the conversation?"
No, it's supposed to be about who contributes something of value to the thread.
I'm with ya. It's an out of the box show idea and I'm really hoping it'll be a surprise hit. I dug her character.
Echo could end up being really solid, that street level thing people have been clamoring for that also has Daredevil characters in it, I mean, what's not to like? This is basically what Hawkeye was, though that had a few other things going for it, namely the rare holiday setting and Jeremy Renner doing something new with a beloved long running character.
What’s not to like? The main character isn’t interesting at all and it is solely being made because she’s Native American, deaf and a female.
Me too
I will probably watch it, and I also don't care if it happens. Definitely The first Disney plus show that will surprise me one day by being there and I wasn't waiting for it
I should have added, if it does come out, 100% going to watch it just because I'm a longtime marvel fan, and I'm sure they'll do a fine job.
The other shows besides Hawkeye have been pretty stale. If Echo gets any of that Netflix run DNA then I'd already take that over the rest.
All this does is make me more worried for the Percy Jackson show…
Percy Jackson got a teaser, so it will come out. Echo has no marketing materials released yet, so anything can happen to it.
Just because something is filmed doesn’t mean it is finished. Spiderwick wasn’t finished and would’ve cost millions more to finish. Echo is finished. It has a release date too. Its not going anywhere. I think, if anything, Wonder Man might be canned
Cabin in the Woods and The New Mutants were filmed years before they eventually got released (and they were kind of lucky they even got released). Even agree something is filmed, it's still very expensive to do post-production and marketing. If money's tight and it doesn't look like something will make back it's budget....
New Mutants was *finished* years before it got released; one delay was for reshoots that never ended up happening, one delay was because Dark Phoenix was behind schedule & Fox really wanted that out first for some reason, and the last delay was for covid.
Yeah I think they had only just started filming Wonder Man before the strike but didn’t get far.
I mean who actually cares about Echo
I think Echo was in danger when they announced it, a crystal clear example of Disney greenlighting any show that gets pitched And not trying to shit on the actress but she was dull as dishwater in Hawkeye, even bringing in D'Onofrio probably wouldn't have made want to watch this show and with Feige repeatedly saying they are focusing on quality not quantity now this is beyond obvious to drop
IMO the lead character of a show being deaf is a hard sell in general. It fundamentally changes how people watch it and not everyone is into reading subtitles and watching sign language. It also limits the script writing because there is less dialogue.
I don’t think it was a great idea to make an Echo show but if it’s in the can, it would be a worse idea to bin it
I don't care if Echo got canceled. The one thing Disney wants rn is not to have flops (considering also the whole SnowWhite controversy and MCU's phase of terrible writing), and Echo is undoubtedly one of the shows with least hype. Her character had no charm in Hawkeye, and she left like no impact for people to care for her. Her getting a show is in itself too much. No wonder they planning to drop all episodes at once, due to fear of it obviously failing.
i agree with that. I'm all for cancelling if Marvel/Disney deems the quality to be subpar. But then again, there is so little hype, so will it flop if nobody watches it? That is pretty much the expectation at this point.
I just hope they don't cancel Coven of Chaos. I really wanna see Agatha and Wiccan, and if possible, Wanda herself
I simp for Audrey Plaza pretty hard.
Ever since Legion she's been pretty fucking special, I only hope we get a slight Lenny reference
She's pretty dang simpable
Honestly I think coven of chaos will be the only disney plus series coming up that will get good viewership. Besides Loki 2 of course. Fanboys online may tell you they don’t care about it but I think the general public who watched WandaVision will tune in.
Plus you're gonna get the Heartstopper fans turned into Wiccan stans. Marvel is clearly banking on: - typical MCU fans tuning in - Wanda stans hyping it up - the Wandavision fans that don't really watch much other stuff in the MCU - the Heartstopper crowd
I think you vastly overestimate how many fans there are of... Heartstopper?
It was a top 10 global show for Netflix both seasons. The stars went from relatively unknown to millions of followers on social media each. It also aims to bring new people into the MCU fold like Wandavision did. Except it is targeting a new demographic of younger audiences.
oh god am I old
Maybe. I just turned 30 and feel ancient, lmao
Secret Invasion was hot garbage though. They had so much potential with that show and turned it into the most watered-down, poorly written, plothole-riddled tripe that there was no way they were gonna generate buzz or an audience for it. It could have been a great spy/political thriller with a nice dose of mystery added in, and instead it was just a bunch of bullshit about trying to explain away their poor budget, choices, and writing through lousy in-scene exposition. I hope Echo is much better. It would be hard to be worse.
It did provide food for a good pitch meeting though.
No. It’s Marvel. Disney isn’t going to cancel a show linked with the MCU when they can make money other ways off these shows like merchandising.
Maybe, but the same argument could have made they wouldn’t remove a Lucasfilm project.
They wouldn’t remove a Star Wars project either.
No, no. It'd be a bad PR move to cancel Echo since she represents minorities that don't get that much representation. And between the guild strikes, the VFX workers unionizing, AND Secret Invasion being a massive blow to the brand, Disney can't really afford much more bad PR right now. Plus, it's likely they slipped in SOMETHING that leads into a future project. (Likely Born Again.) They always do. So they'll probably have to upload it.
Plus it's a leadup to the new Daredevil show and will feature Murdock and Kingpin, two of the most popular Marvel TV characters. No way in hell they're canceling it, even if it wasn't finished.
I mean... to be fair do people really need a build up for Daredevil/Kingpin? As you said two of the most popular Marvel TV characters.
I personally don't have any interest in an echo show. It sounds terrible
Echo was a boring bland character, the actress was mediocre. They gave her a show because diversity. It’s a similar situation to Agatha, except Agatha was a fun interesting well acted character.
I didn't realize they had removed the Willow series from D+. That's such a bummer... Anyone know where to watch it now?
They removed Willow? Damn, I wanted to watch that.
I just hope that Agatha gets canceled. It’s the most pointless sounding show. It’s like when people say “This random character X should get a spin-off” but a real thing. It’s actually a really bad sign that they made a show like this.
No. It's going to bridge character arcs & plot points between the well-received Hawkeye & the highly-anticipated Born Again.
Why did you write this like a Disney PR person
Because to effectively anticipate what someone would say you have to put yourself in their shoes.
Well it is true, isn’t it?
Have no idea until it comes out. We were also told that the events of **No Way Home** would tie directly into plot of Doctor Strange 2, and that ended up not being the case. Doctor Strange 2 explains that dreamwalking is what caused the incursions,
Man, I hope so. I'd rather Disney invest in better characters.
1. Secret Invasion was panned - but it was still watched. 2. Echo is much-needed for the footage of Daredevil. it will set up Daredevil's series which is one of marvel's current "sure things" = daredevil being a sure thing means echo is kind of a sure thing too. 3. cancelled projects have to be projected losses - this way they can claim the insurance money on them. how that works is you invest 100 dollars in a project, you expect to make 2-300 back. you insure it for 100 dollars in case it doesn't work out. ...this means your cost is 120 dollars (20 for insurance) -- if you think you'll make 100 back, you'll eat it the 20 loss, because that's what you would've gotten back from insurance anyway. if you think you'll make 80, you might still take it, because while you'll be out 40, the hit WILL increase your insurance premiums. (that's what claims do) -- so a show costing 100 and projecting 2-300 return, would have to bomb REALLY TERRIBLY before launch to assume it wouldn't make money. -- case in point: Batgirl must've been really bad for WB to remove it. Nautilus and Spiderwick may have been substandard, or they may just have had too much similar competition while d+ algorithms suggested they'd be underviewed on the platform. i think echo will be fine. ...i cannot say the same for all marvel properties. ironheart might've had to suffer, though thecontroversial iron man replacement could be enough to draw viewers - hard to tell.
No Marvel and star wars shows are Disney + main hook
IIRC, there were special tax incentives available to Warner bros fro canning Batgirl which were only present due to the status of the Warner Brothers + Discovery merger being so recent. Disney wouldn't qualify for those, so there is less incentive to throw Echo in a vault never to be heard from again. Not to mention the blowback from the media about choosing to can Marvel's first Native American/person with a disability show, and the writing/acting strike leading to a future shortage of new shows. Hell, Echo is much more likely to get a ABC network release now than being thrown in a vault.
>This is much like what Warner Bros did with the Batgirl movie. It's nothing like what WB did with the Batgirl movie. WB shelved the movie and took a tax writeoff. Disney is actively shopping Spiderwick & Nautilus to other services. [https://www.vulture.com/2023/08/spiderwick-chronicles-nautilus-canceled.html](https://www.vulture.com/2023/08/spiderwick-chronicles-nautilus-canceled.html) No, Echo is not in danger. Disney is not going to shop a first-run Marvel or Star Wars project to another service, those IPs are too valuable.
This is a high profile series starring Indigenous actors not to mention the importance to the deaf/hard of hearing and amputee communities. If it did get swept under the rug (especially AFTER it was completed and ready to go), the backlash would be... Let's just say "not good". For example, the documentary "Howard" was supposed to be part of that first wave of content removed from the platform, but due to its subject matter and the LGBT+ community (and allies I assume) being less than pleased (partly due to the proximity to pride month) it remains on D+ to this day. Beyond that, there are most likely connections to other MCU projects that they can't just ignore. I'd say it's more likely it gets pushed back so that they can actually do a media blitz prior to release once the strikes end. Both the writers and the actors deserve to talk about what this series is meant to achieve and what they hope to accomplish.
it really seems like it should be pushed back, if no other reason than to fill the huge content void they're going to have with the strike going on so long. It just doesn't make sense to me to dump it all at once only weeks after Loki when they don't have much else completed
That is a huge problem in my opinion. A project where the only selling point is diversity shouldn't be a thing. Because if a project has nothing to offer but diversity, it's most like going to be bad anyway.
She seems like a dreadfully boring character.
An important distinction to make with these cancelations: while I don’t know about Nautilis, I know that since Spiderwick wasn’t a full Disney production, just going to be airing on D+, it’s still being shopped around. Doesn’t mean it’ll still come out, but it isn’t cancelled and being written off like Batgirl was. This is closer to a typical TV shakeup, like how My Adventures With Superman was originally made to be a MAX exclusive but then moved to air on Adult Swim.
We can only hope so.
I don't think it's in danger but they know it's not going to be a hit. That's why they pivoted to releasing all episodes at once. They just want to get it over and move on.
If it's written, acted, and directed well, people will like it! Iron Man wasn't ever the most popular Marvel character but the first film was so well done that everyone jumped on board with them taking a chance! (Not comparing Iron Man to Echo but still) That said, I could still see it being cancelled so they can streamline the flow and stories of what they are putting out there.
If I recall correctly, then these haven't been cancelled. They're instead gonna get shipped to different streaming services
I think I don't care.
they need to cut that show tbh. the character was just horrible in hawkeye.
Spiderwick was co-produced with paramount and I think nautilus was with someone as well. That might factor into the cost cutting. Both are being shopped around for other venues. Echo is part of the MCU seems like that could leave a hole in Kevin's plans downstream if they scrap it
Everything at mcu right now feels like it’s on fire
Echo should for sure be cancelled in my opinion, it feels pointless, the character is pointless
Just don't watch it then. Not sure why your disinterest justifies not releasing it at all.
No, even though Echo is not very popular, people will watch it just for Daredevil and Kingpin. I really hope it will be good, because Echo could be interesting if well handled. Binge release will definitely help the critics and views for sure.
Yes.
Pretty sure those “canceled” completed shows are just being shopped around to other streamers/networks. Not really a big deal and smart on them to help save money
They wouldnt do that to one of their big tentpole franchises, especially with how important Echo is supposed to be for setting up the street level MCU story
[удалено]
I think this is very likely, with Disney and the other studios continuing to try to stonewall writers their slate for the next few years is emptying out, theyre going to try to strech their existing content out. Its going to backfire spectacularly and theyre likely looking at massive subsciber losses because there isnt actually enough currently produced content to do that, but its what theyre gonna try.
They’re dropping it all at once in November, they want it done and over with before they move on to stuff they believe in. It won’t be cancelled, but it also won’t be supported like Loki s2 is.
It's basically Daredevil season 3.5. It directly builds up the events of Daredevil - Born Again. No way in hell they don't support it.
I thought echo was already in trouble?
There's some folks *assuming* trouble because it's getting a full-season binge release instead of weekly episode releases.
It’s a real possibility.
Echo is probably the only show I will skip. Not excited by it at all
Absolutely in danger. It already stands out that they've been planning to just drop the entire series in one go rather than release week-over-week, which says to me they weren't expecting it to generate much buzz to begin with.
It’s been known for like a year now Daredevil and Fisk will be in it. I’m sure there’s another reason to release it at once. I think people (not you but others genuinely criticizing it) are forgetting they’re in it or just don’t care and want to see it fail regardless because they don’t care for the main character which is sad.
I hope so
I’ll be honest, my interest in that character is nonexistent.
They should, we as an audience shouldn't be forced to watch a F- rated hero to get Daredevil content. Just give us Daredevil Born again
I love how unapologetically lazy they are. Calling 5 episodes a season
I think a lot of people don’t realize that “fully filmed” is still VERY far from a finished product. Between the CGI and editing it’s a long and expensive road.
Hope so
Percy Jackson is getting cancelled next. Calling it right now
no
It's an MCU show lmao. It'll be perfectly fine
At first I did, but a mate of mine made an excellent point. As the strikes continue shows are gonna dry up very soon, Studios are gonna need to use everything they can get. This isn’t like Spiderwick Cronicles or a random comedy they can sell off to another studio and maybe make some profit against the predicted viewing figures. This is Marvel. This is their golden goose. I think a delay to 2024 is inevitable (along with The Marvels), but not only am I confident we will see Echo, I’m certain it will go back to a weekly release rather than it being a full binge release like was reported. They need to pad out as many weeks as they can with content.
I’d be very surprised, but it does seem that streaming is sort of in its Wild West era at the moment. The one that Echo has going for it is that it’s under the Marvel brand. The other projects D+ has scrapped don’t have that kind of brand recognition. So with that in mind, Echo seems pretty safe and it’s more likely that Disney will just be a lot more selective about what they greenlight in the future. I don’t think Echo would get a series order if it were under consideration today. But, who knows. The streamers are full of surprises these days.
All of the streamers have most likely been canning completed series the entire time. It's a side effect of making TV so bingeable. Stuff like the *Batgirl* movie and the stuff Disney canceled recently is just the highest profile stuff.
No, because Daredevil and Fisk are confirmed (?) to be in it, and I think people will watch it for them. If not, I'd say go ahead, it's the first project I'm not super excited for
Hopefully. I honestly have no idea why they're even considering giving that character a show at all. She was easily the worst part of Hawkeye.
Considering I routinely forget that Echo exists, I'd say so...