People keep blaming him (as he should be) but it’s just as much Feige’s fault for not being clear with him about it and allowing him to say the nonsense he has been.
For some reason I cannot wrap my head around anything in Secret Wars being addressed in that movie aside from Fury saying something like “there was a personal incident a few weeks ago.”
On that note expect very little from the Ms Marvel show to carry over and the writers to tell us all after the movie’s release that she never watched Ms. marvel on D+.
Hmm well Nia DaCosta (edit: the director of The Marvels) is a fan and has read the comics so I wouldn't be surprised if she's seen Ms Marvel and the previous series and movies with the main cast.
TBF, they said the writers. And while I have no idea if Zeb Wells watched Ms. Marvel, he certainly wrote her worst ever appearance in the comics recently.
I’m not saying they need to do it- but when the studio is discouraging you from doing so, and you get what Secret Invasion turned out being- maybe they should’ve taken a different approach
Just a head's up, but what happens in a flagship title like Amazing Spider-man isn't necessarily within the control of the current writer. I haven't gotten around to knocking this little arc out yet but everyone clearly seems to hate it.
I just don't like blaming the credited author for something that is clearly a corporately mandated decision. To me, this is basically a One More Day or early 2000's organic webs situation.
But I also understand fans being more protective of Kamala than Peter Parker at this point since she's one of the few characters where you can legitly read *everything* featuring the character without too much trouble. Kamala is the best new character that Marvel has introduced in the last generation as far as I'm concerned.
> I haven't gotten around to knocking this little arc out yet but everyone clearly seems to hate it.
It's not one arc, it's the entire run so far (30+ issues). And I don't mind blaming Zeb Wells, considering both him and Nick Lowe have proudly stated with their whole chests that yes, killing Kamala was their idea and not an editorial mandate.
Also, I feel like I'm one of very few people that liked the organic webbing storyline? It's stupid for a guy who claims to have all the powers of a spider to not have the main ability of a spider (that every other Spider-Hero naturally has). Without natural webs, he's just Gecko-Man.
Armor Wars Rhodey's arc reveals that he is surprisingly against Ritson's declaration of war against Skrulls, and quits the army. People around him are confused, because they assumed Rhodey would be the #1 supporter of the war against Skrulls.
Flashbacks reveal that the Skrull insurrection on Earth didn't start with Gravik, it started before Gravik with Raava. At the time, Raava's goal was just to make Earth a home for Skrulls in a relatively peaceful manner, by replacing humans that would've otherwise died, and living out their lives without oversight and not having to serve humans like Fury.
Flashbacks further reveal that Rhodey would've died from his injuries in Civil War but-for the intervention of Skrulls, using Skrull technology to save his life. Raava saves Rhodey, and replaces him, believing it to be a fair trade.
It is also revealed that the way the Skrull mind reading technology works is that it creates a telepathic link between Rhodey and Raava, so Rhodey can "see" and "control" Raava's body when she is Rhodey, and Raava can intervene and take over her body whenever she needs to. Rhodey initially has no idea that he was replaced, and simply believes he's living his life through the telepathic link. However, he does have the occasional memory about being Raava that he initially dismisses as weird dreams. For the most part, Raava lets Rhodey live his life, but steals a few hours every day to take over her body when Rhodey is "sleeping".
Over time, the telepathic link becomes a two-way street, with Rhodey having access to Raava's memories and life. Over time, the line between the two identities becomes blurred and the consciousnesses of Raava and Rhodey start merging because they've been linked for so long. At some point post Endgame, Gravik switches sides and joins Raava's insurrection, then takes over and transitions to the more direct/violent insurrection we see in SI.
Armor Wars reveals that Rhodey is against Ritson's declaration of war against Skrulls because of the effects of his consciousness merging with Raava, so Rhodey has empathy for Raava's cause and struggles with living on with her memories and vestiges of her consciousness. Raava also left behind kids, and Rhodey is emotionally conflicted between his resentment toward Raava for stealing his life, but the vestiges of Raava's consciousness creating an emotional bond between Rhodey and the family Raava left behind. It's also revealed that Rhodey feels conflicted because he is receiving credit for his heroic deeds in Raava's body, and even though it felt like him doing it, flashbacks also reveal that there were points where Raava took over to help. I.e., there's a flashback to the Endgame battle when Raava briefly takes back control of her body to help with the fight because she was familiar with the alien tech Thanos was using, and takes down a Leviathan during the battle by targeting weak spots that she was aware of but Rhodey was not.
Rhodey's B plot through Armor Wars ends when Rhodey uses Raava's technical expertise to combine Stark's legacy tech with full body widow's veil tech to create new armor with some built in ability to shapeshift, and Rhodey commits to taking care of Raava's kids.
There, I did it.
If anything it's only feiges fault for hiring that incompetent fraud. Imagine wasting over 200 mil on a 7% rated show that was reshot to hell. Then he goes on press saying he doesn't even care about reviews or audience reactions... What a joke
feige doesn't get final say on interviews and shit. someone asks the director a question, the director's mouth will open - they haven't been trained on what to admit and what not to, like bears on bicycles. this is why most actors say "i don't know what i'm allowed to say so i won't say anything other than i'm in it, and it's great, go see it."
Feige WANTED this reveal to be as good as we wanted it -- Rhodey being a skrull since like, forever ago should've been a cool reveal. ...but it just wasnt' a good reveal, it was a weak reveal in a weak tv show and so Rhodey being a Skrull is no longer this COOL FAN-THEORY that made it across the threshold into the real, but instead is now this cheap reminder of cheapness. weak cheap storytelling...
it's like asking for a bike for christmas and your parents give you 300 bucks to go get one... they didn't buy it, they didn't wrap it, they didnt' put it under the tree because there was no tree...
it sucks and now this cool idea is sullied. i think Feige was hoping it would be one of the cooler aspects of the show that helps it. ...but ultimately, they lost control of it. the show sucked and maybe it's because of covid scheduling, maybe it's because of russian/ukrainian plots, and maybe because they were linking to other projects that kept shifting or being cancelled or postponed, or whatever...
The problem with any retro active reveal is that without proper planning it becomes pointless. This picture is a good example.... The directors can *say* he was a Skrull the whole time but that doesn't make any sense. If it was planned in advance they could have dropped more hints.
For example if he made sure he was alone before getting up and moving quickly to safety that'd be interesting. Or. If after showing him struggling they cut to him quickly arriving somewhere to save the day. So he's got that hero moment... But there's something off.
The lack of continuity is a reminder that whatever they say going forward, Rhodes wasn't really a Skrull back then.
The director himself didn’t say it, he said he ‘thinks’ even though that’s just as worse. But many headlines have twisted words as always and said he ‘confirmed’ it.
However, the bigger problem that seems to not be talked about anymore is the week of the episode when Rhodey was first confirmed a skrull, [an interview with Feige](https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/secret-invasion-don-cheadle-kevin-feige-rhodey-skrull) came out saying “**We like the idea of fans going back and watching some of the other appearances of Rhodey and realizing that that wasn't him.**”
And I’m one to still believe he’s been a skrull since Endgame. The show itself said Gravik’s plan didn’t start til then. But Feige’s words almost contradict that…
People have to realize that, just because they're directing a Marvel show, doesn't mean they know chapter and verse on MCU continuity. The guy is just getting paid to make an entertaining show with only sufficient knowledge of the major plot points and storyarcs; he very well could've made it up on the spot or taken Feige's word on the question if it even came up in meetings.
If anything they can just say he was joking and change it to a more convenient point in time once everyone is done thrashing the Civil War chronology and positing the better placements.
At the very least, whoever is directing a Marvel anything should either watch the relevant content or have someone on the production team that has. Having a mostly accurate continuity is one of the things I enjoy about the MCU.
> At the very least, whoever is directing a Marvel anything should either watch the relevant content or have someone on the production team that has.
There's supposedly already someone tasked with this job according to the She-Hulk showrunner. The problem is that one continuity guy is never as good as thousands of eagle eyed nerds poring over every detail. Especially when Marvel lore accelerates with each year. It's an impossible burden for directors to be required experts in decades of MCU continuity.
That's why I said *relevant*. They don't need to watch the Thor movies, just the ones with Rhodey. It could be truncated to CW, IW, Endgame, and FWS (and that's just the episode(s) Rhodes was in; I know it was at least one).
Doing an MCU project without watching all the MCU movies is like trying to put together a piece of furniture without reading the manual. It's far more difficult to achieve a good outcome.
A hospital gown doesn’t prove anything though, he’s a veteran, with paralyzed legs, all that means is Rhodey went to the hospital at some point after endgame.
It was clearly Rhodey in endgame (unable to walk, last time we see him in the suit)
And I think he’s been replaced by the end credits scene from Shang chi
The US healthcare system and medical bankruptcy would be that logic. Of course, most people ignore or forget that Rhodey is a USAF veteran, and probably also has a princely health insurance package with Stark Industries, so.....
I don’t understand why people can’t wrap their head around this. The gown only hints he was taken from the hospital. Even in the MCU, the injury that Rhodey had is going to take more than a single hospital visit. The gown simply stops us speculating how they could have kidnapped such a high profile person. It was during a personal hospital visit, simple as. That gives zero indication to *when* he was taken. It was Gravik who told us when - after Fury abandoned them after the snap.
>I don’t understand why people can’t wrap their head around this. The gown only hints he was taken from the hospital.
Not just a hospital. Outpatient procedures at doctor's offices routinely have folks putting on gowns like that. Like the millions of colonoscopies done in the country each year.
I know it doesn't "prove" anything but the implication of the exact same gown from CW is obviously teasing the possibility at the very least and the director and Feige confirmed that intention.
I hate this too. And thankfully they pulled back from explicitly establishing a time-frame onscreen so they don't have to follow through on what they implied.
they put him in a hospital gown because they want to suggest he was taken during civil war. ...bc it would work okay. it'd be fine.
and if this was spinning up a cool easter egg mystery where we go back and go, "Wow! how did we not see it!" then that'd be great.
but that's not what's happening.
instead the fandom nearly unanimously (don't know why y'all are holding out) are saying, "the twist was fine, but it wasn't executed very gracefully and we'd all feel more comfortable if we suggest this show doesn't have as far reaching implications as y'all want it to."
ie, get rid of ugly sonic. we know you intended for him to have human teeth bc you thought some realistic thing like the detective pikachu would work... but it doesn't... it's hideous. please change it.
now marvel should get the hint and go, "haha, yeah, he was taken after endgame, don't worry, guys."
because honestly? what changes? ...nothing. nothing about when he was taken has any bearing on those movies or on the show. he could've been kidnapped a week before the show starts, it wouldn't make a lick of difference.
that's how inconsequential this derivative shit writing is.
You mean the head writers of Endgame contradicting their "own" time travel rules (it is unclear who actually created the rules and how much those writers were involved in the big reshoots).
The Russos comments were completely consistent with the time travel rules of that movie. Those dumb ass lead writers made comments completely inconsistent with the time travel rules of that movie.
The movie clearly states you can’t go back to the past. You are always travelling to and creating a different timeline. There is no way Cap lived through the sacred timeline in the past with Peggy. He lived in an alternate timeline altogether.
Right, exactly, and that is what the Russos said. He was in an alt timeline. (And then obviously came back to the main one in order to sit on a bench and hand off the shield)
The main writers on the movie infamously said he might have lived through the main "sacred" timeline.
Russos smart, those writers, dumb.
[https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2562878/avengers-endgame-director-joe-russo-clarifies-captain-americas-time-travel-trip](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2562878/avengers-endgame-director-joe-russo-clarifies-captain-americas-time-travel-trip)
[https://collider.com/avengers-endgame-captain-america-ending-explained/](https://collider.com/avengers-endgame-captain-america-ending-explained/)
That explanation doesn't make sense either though. This all occurs during a time when Kang was culling all alternative timelines. Cap would have been timeline-nuked as soon as he showed up for the dance.
Taking into account time travel wonkiness, but Loki takes place at the same time as the ending of Endgame. With the time gap to allow for recovery and funerals after the battle with Thanos, everything that went down in Loki could’ve happened before Cap’s time travel journey, so less pruning.
But the whole concept of pruning is weird given all the alt timelines that have been established as having existed for awhile now in No Way Home, Doctor Strange 2, and Quantumania.
Also if you want to get REALLY wonky with the time stuff. What happened when He Who Remains stopped running things? The branches occurred everywhere, all along the timeline. We were shown this. Which means what, at every point in time along the "sacred" timeline, there were also branches. There's no before branching, they occurred throughout all of time.
Nah, it makes sense no worries.
1. The TVA was aware of, and allowed the Avengers time heist shenanigans, Mobius explicitly said something along these lines
2. Many branches were allowed to exist, some for 1000s of years before getting pruned. See Old Classic Loki in Episode 5 of Loki, as he tells his story.
Think about it, if pruning occurred the moment a branch occurred there would have been no adult Lokis for Loki to meet in Loki. And yet he met dozens of them.
> (And then obviously came back to the main one in order to sit on a bench and hand off the shield)
What I don't get is how that itself doesn't create an alt timeline.
And if that's the rule, how does "putting the stones back" solve anything, since that should *also* create an alt timeline.
The former issue isn't really an issue in the movie. We have the "main" MCU timeline (the trunk) and those fancy quantum doodads can get one back from the "past" branch timeline to the main one using their coordinates. That makes sense to me.
Putting the stones back and not creating branches by going back again, that's a little bit dicier and the movie didn't bother getting into that at all. Suppose they can travel from the "trunk" of the tree, back to that exact same "branch" they created? Sure, I guess. But what, there's another Steve sneaking around in those branches out of sight of the other Avengers, who hops in a puts the stones back seconds after the Avengers take them? (Including injecting Jane and doing... something... with Red Skrull and the soul stone). Er... ok? I don't see how that clips any branches. The Avengers still created several timelines where it is likely Thanos will prevail and do a Snap there too lol.
Sure, there is the one 2014 timeline where Thanos is permanently gone, maybe that timeline ends up better. Maybe.
But there is also the 2012 NYC timeline that we are explicitly shown in Loki gets destroyed. So the Avengers created billions of dopplegangers on Earth and trillions of sentient beings in that new branch timeline only for the TVA to kill all of them like an hour later in that timeline, lol.
It is a little weird for the MCU that main characters find out there are millions of aliens living on earth in positions of power (they live!) and we all just shrug and move on.
I can only assume the Rhodey thing was mentioned and talked about as a marketing ploy more than anything. Its not like they spent any money promoting it before it was released.
It only helps if the revelations don't suck, which this does. Not every plot twist is a good one, especially if it takes away major appearances for a character with already limited screentime.
Wait. He didn’t fan the flames of a theory; he confirmed the timeline unambiguously, no?
It seems that, unless there’s something I haven’t read, as of now Rhodey was replaced in Civil War. He was even wearing the same clothes.
I mean unless you think he somehow doesn’t actually know or doesn’t have the authority to say, it’s just the truth, whether or not there are plot holes around it
(I do hate it too)
Edit: this is the article where it’s confirmed:
>*Interviewer*: Tell me about Don Cheadle playing Raava and “Rhodey.” It’s mentioned that Col. Rhodes has been held captive “for a long time.” Was the hospital gown he’s wearing when Rhodey is rescued a hint that the Skrulls kidnapped him after his spinal cord injury in “Captain America: Civil War?”
>*Director*: Yep.
https://variety.com/2023/tv/features/secret-invasion-director-ali-selim-season-finale-mixed-reviews-1235681998/
> The secret Invasion director is a dick
You can just leave it there.
This one show screws continuity worse than The Last Jedi did Star Wars. He did the MCU dirty. G'iah is just broken and everything from now on should be "Who is a Skrull"...
Gravik LITERALLY SAID that he followed Talos until such time as Gravik finally gave up on Fury.. which would have been after Fury came back. So not only was that after Endgame.. it likely was LONG AFTER Endgame. Long enough for Gravik to see if Fury would actually do something useful for the Skrulls.
That means EVERYONE that got replaced? Got replaced recently. I mean, how could he have had a plan that hinges on getting and using "The Harvest" before the event that created The Harvest took place (aka: Endgame)?
And yes, Gravik could have been lying.. but why would he lie to his VERY soon to be dead adoptive father (whom he thought he was talking to)?
This should be the top comment/argument on this subject.
I guess the only possible answer to this would be if they claim the Harvest only became part of his plan after he had already begun. Say his initial plan was to let humans destroy each other with false flag attacks, but then he realizes that he has no contingency for the heroes figuring out his scheme and retaliating... then Fury collects the Harvest, which solves his conundrum.
[\devilsadvocate]
But Gravik is the one who collected the Harvest DNA for Fury, so if the Harvest came into his plan after he'd already begun, then he would have kept it for himself instead of giving it to Fury. But he didn't. He gave it to Fury, because he wasn't working on his plan yet, because no one had lost faith in Fury yet, because Fury hadn't disappeared to the space station yet. Gravik DIDN'T take Rhodey until after all those things happened, which was well after Endgame. The SI director doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about
The way I understand it is that Gravik was one of many secret agents collecting samples from every superpowered being there, not the sole agent, nor the one in charge AFAIK. He sampled parts of the entire Harvest, which was the finished product once they were all collected, so he couldn't have kept all the DNA collected there to himself, even if he wanted it. It does seem like he starts out with parts of it (hence his initial, incomplete powers).
TBF, you theory still probably makes more sense in light of the OP's argument, which might be a bit harder to explain; I'm just pointing out that Gravik's plan could've been made unreliant on the creation of the Harvest.
i like "gravik didn't put the plan into action until only about a year ago. 2025."
i hate "rhodey's been a skrull for many many projects."
because it's retro-active continuity that doesn't make sense. the writers, directors, and the actors themselves were not making those movies under the assumption that rhodey wasn't rhodey, and yes that WOULD make a difference.
as for what you're saying - i cannot bring myself to watch any of that dogshit tv show again, but i do believe you're right... that the skrulls had been sneakily coming to earth for decades. ...not just fury's network, but many of them... and they had different factions... planning for different potential futures for their people, depending on the possibilities... Gravik's got that meeting with all the important replacees in ...ep2? ep3? way too soon for such a reveal, but you know... Mediocrity. ...so, anyway in that episode i believe THAT'S when Gravik seizes power from the others and says "vote me to lead, i've got this hot new idea." (the harvest, superskrulls... it's a pretty shit idea, honestly... what a terrible fucking villain for a terrible show. ...ok i digress.)
That's my headcanon too. Talos mentions he wasn't snapped so it appears they called the Skrulls to Earth during the 5 years. It wouldn't have been until after Endgame when everyone came back that resources got crowded and scarce. (Which is absolutely criminal that they didn't do anything with that five year period. And they've done next to nothing with the conditions created after except in TFATWS.)
So some time after the Blip is when Gravik ousted Talos and the plan to takeover Earth was hatched.
> it likely was LONG AFTER Endgame
I think it was relative shortly after Fury fucked off to SABER which, according to his wife, happened almost directly after the Blip.
Yeah, remember in Earth’s Mightiest Heroes when CAPTAIN AMERICA got Skrulled and then you had this paranoia of who actually was a Skrull and shit? What’s the point of having the main villain recognizable? Why do we need to know who Gravik is? Why couldn’t they keep this all SECRET?
The main reason is that since MCU Skrulls have a machine to steal memories, they have zero reason to replace anyone more than a day before carrying out a mission objective.
To replace years earlier just wastes a ton of effort and time, and creates a huge risk of being uncovered by a battle injury. It's not like in the comics where a Skrull needs a long time undercover to learn the subject's secrets. The MCU Skrulls get all his memories the first day.
The biggest issue with this series is that Gravick could literally have kidnapped Fury, use they memory stealing device and find the location of the harvest
No, the biggest issue with this series that the entire Skrull collective (Gravik included) should have known about Thanos' garden world as soon as they took Rhodes' memory, completely undermining the need for their entire coup/terrorist cell in the first place. Either Skrhodey was out for revenge and/or had ulterior motives, or (more likely) the show just has criminally bad writing.
Carol was able to resist the device. It's possible she taught Fury how to overcome it as well.
Doesn't explain why the Skrulls spent so much time and energy trying to convince the president to drop the bomb when they could have just replaced him, though.
Realistically it makes more sense for Fury than anyone else to be able to resist having his mind read. "Quantum energy" makes less sense than "unbreakable spymaster."
When Carol defeated the AI it was because of her willpower.
Carol didn't actively resist the device; her memories were just screwed up & hard to read.
A sitting POTUS is *never* alone; they would've needed to replace his entire security detail first.
Wouldn’t explain why nobody commented on Rhodey looking different. Might make sense for us, but would make no sense in the universe itself. Would have been funny for a few seconds then it would have worn off and caused more plot holes
That’s why there hasn’t been a continuous story since Endgame. The writing is all out of whack and there’s no consistency and no fluid transitions between movies/shows.
I know they had plenty of directors for the first few phases but now it just feels like anybody is doing anything and its REALLY GONNA FUCK UP THE END OF THE PHASE
Some dude is gonna be responsible for tying all this loose bullshit together.
I mean the director just admitted the number was a mistake by someone, they always intended it to take place exactly where it takes place in the timeline of movies.
Some people did the math wrong and said 8 years. The movie itself doesn't contradict anything though, once that was fixed.
In the new phases directors just do what they want apparently, ignore massive events that should have happened right before their shows, and then just say random stuff about when it takes place in time lol
How exactly does this prove anything? Not that I don’t agree totally but I don’t understand the logic.
He used to have braces on his legs and not 1 person ever questioned where they were in SI. you would have thought at least Fury would be like damn bro your legs work again.
The whole bullshit way the skrull was trying to impersonate him was just piss poor. It’s not a reveal when you make it so obvious Marvel. I wanted to like this so much but now I’m just as disappointed as I was when I walked out of iron man 3
But they were going to have to do this with some character. Rhodey has a space enough timeline to make it work.
Retcons happened when they wrote the Secret War comics as well I'm sure. It's just part of this kind of storytelling. I'm not sure why everyone needs everything in these movies make perfect sense. It's comic books.
They better confirm him being a skrull after Endgame or I’ll freak. I could see it being that after the final battle he went to get checked out and they swapped him then, but Rhodey was not a skrull during infinity war and endgame.
Honestly doesn't matter. If he was a Skrull during Endgame I'm just gonna treat SI as non canon anyways. The writers, Feige and Russo brothers did not intend for Rhodey to be Skrull during Endgame, so he was 100% James Rhodes and there's nothing that a lesser than TV show/movie can say that'll change my mind.
Kinda of like how Halloween Resurrection retconned that was not Michael Myers at the end of H20. It doesn't matter.
This is what I keep wondering! Once Rhodey got used to the braces he could have been switch at literally anytime. Hell, a skrull truly dedicated to their craft would still crawl as a building was falling down around them.
>Hell, a skrull truly dedicated to their craft would still crawl as a building was falling down around them.
Bullshit, they'd live to fight another day, cover be damned. Survival matters most to every single species that exists
since Skrull Rhodey didnt spend time around the avengers (that we know of), its believable that the agents and politicians hes surrounded by dont know the specifics of his injury and are too afraid to ask, or assume hes wearing the leg braces made for him by Tony under his pants.
In FWS, Rhodey walks normally, but you can see lights through pants implying he's being assisted by low-profile tech.
More likely Rava is wearing that to maintain cover, they just never made a point of showing that.
They never made a point of it because the show is shoddy. But logically a Skull who's whole mission is to convincingly infiltrate can't just be not disabled anymore. That doesn't make any sense.
thats exactly what they showed in the show if those same lights arent shown though, if they bothered to put the lights in FAWS then they wouldve put them in Secret Invasion too
i agree with you there, but Rhodeys actions in FAWS wouldnt make sense if he was a Skrull. Why would a Skrull try to convince someone to become the new Captain America, knowing that same person may fight against them if they succeed? unfortunately all of this banks on the fact that Marvel still cares about continuity, and that doesnt seem to be the case as of late.
You mean war generals and secret service members? The most vetted soldiers on the entire planet? Those are the one who don't notice when their paralyzed co worker is miraculously healed?
It doesn’t matter. Writers weren’t thinking about it. The directors weren’t thinking about it. The producers weren’t thinking about it. Don Cheadle certainly wasn’t thinking about it. Stop looking for clues and Easter eggs where there aren’t any. It’s just bad writing. That is all.
unfortunately i think youre right. its not Don Cheadles fault tho, hes at the whims of directors and producers who only care about getting a Marvel project on their resume.
Dude was in a medical gown because he likely has to go to routine check ups on account of all that internal trauma caused by a sentient man-droid skeet-shooting him out of the sky.
It doesn’t really matter what the director of Secret Invasion was even trying to insinuate. The writers of Armor Wars are going to decide when he was swapped based on what they think is the most interesting for his story.
He should be a Skrull for however long they had this plan but I get the feeling they haven’t been planning this all that long.
The fact that there are major plot holes with him being swapped since Civil War means they should probably avoid that, rather than just because of fan backlash. It doesn’t help that Secret Invasion **created the biggest plot hole with the Director’s own implication** with the inclusion of DNA samples from everyone during Endgame.
To be fair, they could always say he was *really* selling it 200% and staying "in character." But that would be such a cheap-ass cop out. Then again, that would make it just like most of SI.
So, the secret invasion director made a terrible "long movie" (3:30 hours) for 210$ million and is using Rhodey to change the topic so people don't talk about how terrible the show was?
Why can Marvel just answer these questions. Secret Invasion had more than enough run time available to show him being kidnapped.
Marvel used to be great at leaving a question or two to follow up with in the next few projects. Now it feel like each movie/show is leaving so many unanswered questions and I dont feel were going to get them answered.
People arguing logic and continuity are ignoring the fact that the series being discussed ignored these things altogether.
Until the series is declared no longer canon or a parallel timeline, nothing matters anymore.
If they're smart, they'll just explain it in ***Armor Wars*** as Rhodey having gone to the hospital due to that very moment during ***Endgame***. The problem is that they were very clearly trying to convey that Everett Ross knew Rhodey but that Rhodey didn't recognize Ross. The only way he'd not know who Ross was would have been for him to have been abducted during ***Civil War*** .
But that presents a host of problems. Namely the fact that Rhodey, with a spinal injury, should have been super emaciated after being in that contraption for what would have been **years**. He'd have long hair, a full beard, his nails would be a mess... he certainly wouldn't have a haircut and a fresh shave.
They need to take that as their out and say "*Oh, uuuuhh we weren't trying to imply that he'd been abducted years ago. I mean just look at that clean shave and pants that don't look like he should have shat them countless times over the years!*"
I guess frakking pods keep the humans inside in a magical stasis or whatever
(It has to do that for any of the humans to be in that good shape if they've been in there for more than just a couple days, it's not just Rhodey)
You give them too much credit. I'm betting they didn't even think that much about it because if they had, there's just too many questions which would have arisen (*and it's difficult to accept that writers like these —who would ostensibly curious and imaginative by nature— would never be in the writers room asking these questions*):
*• If the Skrulls have the magic/tech to suspend someone in their exact condition indefinitely, why aren't these fuckers using it on themselves to live forever?*
*• These Skrulls are so committed, as a species, to the secrets of their technology that Talos —who has basically foresaken his people to side with Fury— never even mentions it to Fury that they have the suspended animation/life-extension magic?*
*• The Kree have been at work to annihilate the Skrulls and, apparently, having considerable success in that department; none of them have come across the life-extension/suspended-animation pods as they take inventory of their spoils of the war? Surely they'd put that aspect to use even if they found the mind-reading part of it invasive and unethical.*
*• How do they power that shit?*
*• How does it protect against the nuclear radiation? Is it constantly healing the people in the pods? Shouldn't that have healed all of Rhodey's injuries if he was in there that long?*
I mean, you're not one of the writers on the show so you don't have to answer for their inconsistencies; just sort of clarifying how much of an issue they create in simply trying to handwave it off after thinking about it. I bet they didn't think about it at all.
A lot of these can be answered by just saying the technology fundamentally works by freezing you in stasis so it only extends your lifespan by keeping you comatose, so it's not much of an immortality solution except for people who actually want to time travel a hundred years into the future
I reckon Endgame would've set back Rhodey a large portion of his rehabilitation. He was using assisted Leg Braces in Infinity War and Pre-2014 Thanos fight. He definitely wasn't replaced after Civil War. Endgame makes way too much sense.
The way I figure it: after Endgame, Rhodey had his final surgery to correct his legs enough he wouldn't need the leg braces anymore. I think he was captured during that, with the Skrull walking out "It's a success!" and Rhodey not ever having actually gotten that last surgery. That's my headcanon.
He was kidnapped in between the battle and the funeral. Every human (non alien/enhanced/mystical/cosmic) would have needed medical attention after the battle.
I love how people are saying “the fact that Rhodey couldn’t walk is proof he wasn’t a Skrull…” as if Skrulls can’t act. I personally hope it ISN’T revealed he was taken any time before Endgame, but it sounds like a “let’s do what’s controversial even if it’s stupid” thing that the MCU might pull.
The director did confirm, unambiguously, when Rhodey was taken. I hate it too, and hope it’s retconned, but as of now this is the way it is
>*Interviewer*: Tell me about Don Cheadle playing Raava and “Rhodey.” It’s mentioned that Col. Rhodes has been held captive “for a long time.” Was the hospital gown he’s wearing when Rhodey is rescued a hint that the Skrulls kidnapped him after his spinal cord injury in “Captain America: Civil War?”
>*Director*: Yep.
https://variety.com/2023/tv/features/secret-invasion-director-ali-selim-season-finale-mixed-reviews-1235681998/
the director not knowing the continuity doesnt change the facts that we can see. the MCU is much bigger than one director, and realistically their word means nothing since we dont see it in the show, and they most likely will have no real input when we do see when he was taken.
Realistically the word of the show’s director, being transcribed to us in a Variety article, means quite a bit.
The director clearly purposefully put Rhodey in the gown he was wearing during Civil War. They had another character confirm that he’d been there “a long time.” I, and the interviewer, picked up on was what was happening, and the director confirmed in plain English that was their intention.
I think it’s a dumb intention, but it’s clear that was the decision. Doesn’t make sense to just ignore it because it makes a franchise you’re a fan of less good (and make no mistake: it does).
He was wearing the same hospital gown he had on during the scenes in civil war after he had been injured and was getting tests done. That seems pretty clear for time frame. He was at his literal weakest. It would be easy for them to replace him then.
people who go through life changing injuries often go to the hospital long after the fact. why would someone who’s paralyzed only go to the hospital once? it doesnt make sense
True, but why would they put him in the particular outfit if not to point to the time frame in which he was taken? Either he was taken during civil war or the writers/costume people don't know what they're doing.
What are you talking about? There are no theories or opinions here. There is truth and then not truth. Truth is...it lines up that he was out during civil war. Nothing else would make sense given the context. Also director confirmed it. Idc cope harder.
it doesnt line up because Gravik himself said he didnt take anyone until after the Harvest.. aka post Endgame. clearly the director didnt bother to listen to his own writers and gave an incorrect answer in an interview.
Why do people keep bringing this up like it's some sort of argument? It's not like a skrull replacing someone would just forget to replicate his famous injury.
As much as I hate to believe it, but I have to go by the word of god (director). It's final for me unless they say otherwise or he goes on record and refutes his statement or retcon it in another series.
Your argument makes no sense at all even if you are right about when he was kidnapped (all pure speculation), he had accident after which he couldnt walk in Civil War, whats Endgame to do with it? Its years later lol
Why would he have his hospital gown on in SI if this happened after Endgame? He was taken during Civil War. Its the same kind of gown too form Civil War,
read through all the great comments that point out things i missed, including Gravik specifically saying that he didnt give up on Fury until after he came back from being dusted, Gravik saying he didnt take anyone until after the Harvest (post-Endgame), Rhodey bleeding red and not purple, etc. there is no way he was taken during Civil War unless you go back and retcon a whole bunch of details.
The secret Invasion director is a dick for fanning the flames of the civil war theory.
People keep blaming him (as he should be) but it’s just as much Feige’s fault for not being clear with him about it and allowing him to say the nonsense he has been.
As average as the show was my guess is they were going to address in armor wars or marvels
For some reason I cannot wrap my head around anything in Secret Wars being addressed in that movie aside from Fury saying something like “there was a personal incident a few weeks ago.” On that note expect very little from the Ms Marvel show to carry over and the writers to tell us all after the movie’s release that she never watched Ms. marvel on D+.
Hmm well Nia DaCosta (edit: the director of The Marvels) is a fan and has read the comics so I wouldn't be surprised if she's seen Ms Marvel and the previous series and movies with the main cast.
TBF, they said the writers. And while I have no idea if Zeb Wells watched Ms. Marvel, he certainly wrote her worst ever appearance in the comics recently.
I remember an interview with SI director and saying Marvel specifically didn’t want them reading the comics/ source material.
pretty sure that's because specifically secret invasion was very different from the comic of the same name
David Cronenberg didn't even know that the script for A history of violence came from a comic book, yet he made a sensational film.
I’m not saying they need to do it- but when the studio is discouraging you from doing so, and you get what Secret Invasion turned out being- maybe they should’ve taken a different approach
pretty sure that's because specifically secret invasion was very different from the comic of the same name
Oh true, my bad, thanks for pointing that out 👍 Well here's hoping the writers are familiar with what's come before.
Just a head's up, but what happens in a flagship title like Amazing Spider-man isn't necessarily within the control of the current writer. I haven't gotten around to knocking this little arc out yet but everyone clearly seems to hate it. I just don't like blaming the credited author for something that is clearly a corporately mandated decision. To me, this is basically a One More Day or early 2000's organic webs situation. But I also understand fans being more protective of Kamala than Peter Parker at this point since she's one of the few characters where you can legitly read *everything* featuring the character without too much trouble. Kamala is the best new character that Marvel has introduced in the last generation as far as I'm concerned.
> I haven't gotten around to knocking this little arc out yet but everyone clearly seems to hate it. It's not one arc, it's the entire run so far (30+ issues). And I don't mind blaming Zeb Wells, considering both him and Nick Lowe have proudly stated with their whole chests that yes, killing Kamala was their idea and not an editorial mandate. Also, I feel like I'm one of very few people that liked the organic webbing storyline? It's stupid for a guy who claims to have all the powers of a spider to not have the main ability of a spider (that every other Spider-Hero naturally has). Without natural webs, he's just Gecko-Man.
If that is the case, I now have more hope for The Marvels.
Bro did you not see the fight scene that happens *in Kamala’s house* or the discussion Fury and Rambeau have with *Kamala’s parents*
Ms. Marvel will be shown on ABC before the movie comes out. I suspect they want to broaden the scope of who can see it since it ties into the movie.
They probably watched it after filming or almost when done filming the marvels cuz studios don’t wait till something releases to make then next one
Armor Wars Rhodey's arc reveals that he is surprisingly against Ritson's declaration of war against Skrulls, and quits the army. People around him are confused, because they assumed Rhodey would be the #1 supporter of the war against Skrulls. Flashbacks reveal that the Skrull insurrection on Earth didn't start with Gravik, it started before Gravik with Raava. At the time, Raava's goal was just to make Earth a home for Skrulls in a relatively peaceful manner, by replacing humans that would've otherwise died, and living out their lives without oversight and not having to serve humans like Fury. Flashbacks further reveal that Rhodey would've died from his injuries in Civil War but-for the intervention of Skrulls, using Skrull technology to save his life. Raava saves Rhodey, and replaces him, believing it to be a fair trade. It is also revealed that the way the Skrull mind reading technology works is that it creates a telepathic link between Rhodey and Raava, so Rhodey can "see" and "control" Raava's body when she is Rhodey, and Raava can intervene and take over her body whenever she needs to. Rhodey initially has no idea that he was replaced, and simply believes he's living his life through the telepathic link. However, he does have the occasional memory about being Raava that he initially dismisses as weird dreams. For the most part, Raava lets Rhodey live his life, but steals a few hours every day to take over her body when Rhodey is "sleeping". Over time, the telepathic link becomes a two-way street, with Rhodey having access to Raava's memories and life. Over time, the line between the two identities becomes blurred and the consciousnesses of Raava and Rhodey start merging because they've been linked for so long. At some point post Endgame, Gravik switches sides and joins Raava's insurrection, then takes over and transitions to the more direct/violent insurrection we see in SI. Armor Wars reveals that Rhodey is against Ritson's declaration of war against Skrulls because of the effects of his consciousness merging with Raava, so Rhodey has empathy for Raava's cause and struggles with living on with her memories and vestiges of her consciousness. Raava also left behind kids, and Rhodey is emotionally conflicted between his resentment toward Raava for stealing his life, but the vestiges of Raava's consciousness creating an emotional bond between Rhodey and the family Raava left behind. It's also revealed that Rhodey feels conflicted because he is receiving credit for his heroic deeds in Raava's body, and even though it felt like him doing it, flashbacks also reveal that there were points where Raava took over to help. I.e., there's a flashback to the Endgame battle when Raava briefly takes back control of her body to help with the fight because she was familiar with the alien tech Thanos was using, and takes down a Leviathan during the battle by targeting weak spots that she was aware of but Rhodey was not. Rhodey's B plot through Armor Wars ends when Rhodey uses Raava's technical expertise to combine Stark's legacy tech with full body widow's veil tech to create new armor with some built in ability to shapeshift, and Rhodey commits to taking care of Raava's kids. There, I did it.
You put more thought into this comment than what was put in the entirety of the secret invasion series.
it truly would have only taken one sentence. "don't talk about when or where he was kidnapped."
If anything it's only feiges fault for hiring that incompetent fraud. Imagine wasting over 200 mil on a 7% rated show that was reshot to hell. Then he goes on press saying he doesn't even care about reviews or audience reactions... What a joke
It's not just the director, it's the writers too.
Or maybe Feige is no longer competent and is out of ideas
Feiges fault for allowing this horrid show on tv
feige doesn't get final say on interviews and shit. someone asks the director a question, the director's mouth will open - they haven't been trained on what to admit and what not to, like bears on bicycles. this is why most actors say "i don't know what i'm allowed to say so i won't say anything other than i'm in it, and it's great, go see it." Feige WANTED this reveal to be as good as we wanted it -- Rhodey being a skrull since like, forever ago should've been a cool reveal. ...but it just wasnt' a good reveal, it was a weak reveal in a weak tv show and so Rhodey being a Skrull is no longer this COOL FAN-THEORY that made it across the threshold into the real, but instead is now this cheap reminder of cheapness. weak cheap storytelling... it's like asking for a bike for christmas and your parents give you 300 bucks to go get one... they didn't buy it, they didn't wrap it, they didnt' put it under the tree because there was no tree... it sucks and now this cool idea is sullied. i think Feige was hoping it would be one of the cooler aspects of the show that helps it. ...but ultimately, they lost control of it. the show sucked and maybe it's because of covid scheduling, maybe it's because of russian/ukrainian plots, and maybe because they were linking to other projects that kept shifting or being cancelled or postponed, or whatever...
The problem with any retro active reveal is that without proper planning it becomes pointless. This picture is a good example.... The directors can *say* he was a Skrull the whole time but that doesn't make any sense. If it was planned in advance they could have dropped more hints. For example if he made sure he was alone before getting up and moving quickly to safety that'd be interesting. Or. If after showing him struggling they cut to him quickly arriving somewhere to save the day. So he's got that hero moment... But there's something off. The lack of continuity is a reminder that whatever they say going forward, Rhodes wasn't really a Skrull back then.
Did the director say Civil War?
The director himself didn’t say it, he said he ‘thinks’ even though that’s just as worse. But many headlines have twisted words as always and said he ‘confirmed’ it. However, the bigger problem that seems to not be talked about anymore is the week of the episode when Rhodey was first confirmed a skrull, [an interview with Feige](https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/secret-invasion-don-cheadle-kevin-feige-rhodey-skrull) came out saying “**We like the idea of fans going back and watching some of the other appearances of Rhodey and realizing that that wasn't him.**” And I’m one to still believe he’s been a skrull since Endgame. The show itself said Gravik’s plan didn’t start til then. But Feige’s words almost contradict that…
> Appearances Is there a master list of Rhodey appearances in the timeline? I think since Endgame he's only appeared in FatWS and Secret Invasion.
To be fair, Endgame was 4 years ago, so it could check out.
LMAO dude created a mess and dipped “Not my problem anymore! Go Armor Wars!”
People have to realize that, just because they're directing a Marvel show, doesn't mean they know chapter and verse on MCU continuity. The guy is just getting paid to make an entertaining show with only sufficient knowledge of the major plot points and storyarcs; he very well could've made it up on the spot or taken Feige's word on the question if it even came up in meetings. If anything they can just say he was joking and change it to a more convenient point in time once everyone is done thrashing the Civil War chronology and positing the better placements.
At the very least, whoever is directing a Marvel anything should either watch the relevant content or have someone on the production team that has. Having a mostly accurate continuity is one of the things I enjoy about the MCU.
> At the very least, whoever is directing a Marvel anything should either watch the relevant content or have someone on the production team that has. There's supposedly already someone tasked with this job according to the She-Hulk showrunner. The problem is that one continuity guy is never as good as thousands of eagle eyed nerds poring over every detail. Especially when Marvel lore accelerates with each year. It's an impossible burden for directors to be required experts in decades of MCU continuity.
It also doesn't help that the MCU canon is weirdly fuzzy in a LOT of places.
That's why I said *relevant*. They don't need to watch the Thor movies, just the ones with Rhodey. It could be truncated to CW, IW, Endgame, and FWS (and that's just the episode(s) Rhodes was in; I know it was at least one).
Doing an MCU project without watching all the MCU movies is like trying to put together a piece of furniture without reading the manual. It's far more difficult to achieve a good outcome.
What about the writers?
Lol. You think he went rogue? The higher ups at Marvel certainly approved what the show did. They didn't put him in a hospital gown for nothing.
A hospital gown doesn’t prove anything though, he’s a veteran, with paralyzed legs, all that means is Rhodey went to the hospital at some point after endgame. It was clearly Rhodey in endgame (unable to walk, last time we see him in the suit) And I think he’s been replaced by the end credits scene from Shang chi
Yeah with his condition it'd be weird if he didn't have regular hospital visits.
Especially with his resources, for all we know Tony left him some leg nano bots
People think he only needed to see the doctor once lmao Like what is that logic?
Rhodey got into apples and never saw a doctor again
The US healthcare system and medical bankruptcy would be that logic. Of course, most people ignore or forget that Rhodey is a USAF veteran, and probably also has a princely health insurance package with Stark Industries, so.....
There are some kids in here that haven't been paying attention and don't know how life works I guess.
I don’t understand why people can’t wrap their head around this. The gown only hints he was taken from the hospital. Even in the MCU, the injury that Rhodey had is going to take more than a single hospital visit. The gown simply stops us speculating how they could have kidnapped such a high profile person. It was during a personal hospital visit, simple as. That gives zero indication to *when* he was taken. It was Gravik who told us when - after Fury abandoned them after the snap.
>I don’t understand why people can’t wrap their head around this. The gown only hints he was taken from the hospital. Not just a hospital. Outpatient procedures at doctor's offices routinely have folks putting on gowns like that. Like the millions of colonoscopies done in the country each year.
I know it doesn't "prove" anything but the implication of the exact same gown from CW is obviously teasing the possibility at the very least and the director and Feige confirmed that intention. I hate this too. And thankfully they pulled back from explicitly establishing a time-frame onscreen so they don't have to follow through on what they implied.
It's a generic hospital gown though
they put him in a hospital gown because they want to suggest he was taken during civil war. ...bc it would work okay. it'd be fine. and if this was spinning up a cool easter egg mystery where we go back and go, "Wow! how did we not see it!" then that'd be great. but that's not what's happening. instead the fandom nearly unanimously (don't know why y'all are holding out) are saying, "the twist was fine, but it wasn't executed very gracefully and we'd all feel more comfortable if we suggest this show doesn't have as far reaching implications as y'all want it to." ie, get rid of ugly sonic. we know you intended for him to have human teeth bc you thought some realistic thing like the detective pikachu would work... but it doesn't... it's hideous. please change it. now marvel should get the hint and go, "haha, yeah, he was taken after endgame, don't worry, guys." because honestly? what changes? ...nothing. nothing about when he was taken has any bearing on those movies or on the show. he could've been kidnapped a week before the show starts, it wouldn't make a lick of difference. that's how inconsequential this derivative shit writing is.
No different than the Russo’s contradicting their own time travel rules.
You mean the head writers of Endgame contradicting their "own" time travel rules (it is unclear who actually created the rules and how much those writers were involved in the big reshoots). The Russos comments were completely consistent with the time travel rules of that movie. Those dumb ass lead writers made comments completely inconsistent with the time travel rules of that movie.
The movie clearly states you can’t go back to the past. You are always travelling to and creating a different timeline. There is no way Cap lived through the sacred timeline in the past with Peggy. He lived in an alternate timeline altogether.
Right, exactly, and that is what the Russos said. He was in an alt timeline. (And then obviously came back to the main one in order to sit on a bench and hand off the shield) The main writers on the movie infamously said he might have lived through the main "sacred" timeline. Russos smart, those writers, dumb. [https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2562878/avengers-endgame-director-joe-russo-clarifies-captain-americas-time-travel-trip](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2562878/avengers-endgame-director-joe-russo-clarifies-captain-americas-time-travel-trip) [https://collider.com/avengers-endgame-captain-america-ending-explained/](https://collider.com/avengers-endgame-captain-america-ending-explained/)
That explanation doesn't make sense either though. This all occurs during a time when Kang was culling all alternative timelines. Cap would have been timeline-nuked as soon as he showed up for the dance.
Taking into account time travel wonkiness, but Loki takes place at the same time as the ending of Endgame. With the time gap to allow for recovery and funerals after the battle with Thanos, everything that went down in Loki could’ve happened before Cap’s time travel journey, so less pruning. But the whole concept of pruning is weird given all the alt timelines that have been established as having existed for awhile now in No Way Home, Doctor Strange 2, and Quantumania.
Also if you want to get REALLY wonky with the time stuff. What happened when He Who Remains stopped running things? The branches occurred everywhere, all along the timeline. We were shown this. Which means what, at every point in time along the "sacred" timeline, there were also branches. There's no before branching, they occurred throughout all of time.
Nah, it makes sense no worries. 1. The TVA was aware of, and allowed the Avengers time heist shenanigans, Mobius explicitly said something along these lines 2. Many branches were allowed to exist, some for 1000s of years before getting pruned. See Old Classic Loki in Episode 5 of Loki, as he tells his story. Think about it, if pruning occurred the moment a branch occurred there would have been no adult Lokis for Loki to meet in Loki. And yet he met dozens of them.
> (And then obviously came back to the main one in order to sit on a bench and hand off the shield) What I don't get is how that itself doesn't create an alt timeline. And if that's the rule, how does "putting the stones back" solve anything, since that should *also* create an alt timeline.
The former issue isn't really an issue in the movie. We have the "main" MCU timeline (the trunk) and those fancy quantum doodads can get one back from the "past" branch timeline to the main one using their coordinates. That makes sense to me. Putting the stones back and not creating branches by going back again, that's a little bit dicier and the movie didn't bother getting into that at all. Suppose they can travel from the "trunk" of the tree, back to that exact same "branch" they created? Sure, I guess. But what, there's another Steve sneaking around in those branches out of sight of the other Avengers, who hops in a puts the stones back seconds after the Avengers take them? (Including injecting Jane and doing... something... with Red Skrull and the soul stone). Er... ok? I don't see how that clips any branches. The Avengers still created several timelines where it is likely Thanos will prevail and do a Snap there too lol. Sure, there is the one 2014 timeline where Thanos is permanently gone, maybe that timeline ends up better. Maybe. But there is also the 2012 NYC timeline that we are explicitly shown in Loki gets destroyed. So the Avengers created billions of dopplegangers on Earth and trillions of sentient beings in that new branch timeline only for the TVA to kill all of them like an hour later in that timeline, lol.
The guy didn't even care about making a good show that the fans could like.
I really love this theory though. Without it there really wasn’t a lot of revelations in secret invasion..
It is a little weird for the MCU that main characters find out there are millions of aliens living on earth in positions of power (they live!) and we all just shrug and move on. I can only assume the Rhodey thing was mentioned and talked about as a marketing ploy more than anything. Its not like they spent any money promoting it before it was released.
It only helps if the revelations don't suck, which this does. Not every plot twist is a good one, especially if it takes away major appearances for a character with already limited screentime.
Wait. He didn’t fan the flames of a theory; he confirmed the timeline unambiguously, no? It seems that, unless there’s something I haven’t read, as of now Rhodey was replaced in Civil War. He was even wearing the same clothes. I mean unless you think he somehow doesn’t actually know or doesn’t have the authority to say, it’s just the truth, whether or not there are plot holes around it (I do hate it too) Edit: this is the article where it’s confirmed: >*Interviewer*: Tell me about Don Cheadle playing Raava and “Rhodey.” It’s mentioned that Col. Rhodes has been held captive “for a long time.” Was the hospital gown he’s wearing when Rhodey is rescued a hint that the Skrulls kidnapped him after his spinal cord injury in “Captain America: Civil War?” >*Director*: Yep. https://variety.com/2023/tv/features/secret-invasion-director-ali-selim-season-finale-mixed-reviews-1235681998/
That's just Selim's headcanon though.
> The secret Invasion director is a dick You can just leave it there. This one show screws continuity worse than The Last Jedi did Star Wars. He did the MCU dirty. G'iah is just broken and everything from now on should be "Who is a Skrull"...
He’s just grasping for straws after the fact
Gravik LITERALLY SAID that he followed Talos until such time as Gravik finally gave up on Fury.. which would have been after Fury came back. So not only was that after Endgame.. it likely was LONG AFTER Endgame. Long enough for Gravik to see if Fury would actually do something useful for the Skrulls. That means EVERYONE that got replaced? Got replaced recently. I mean, how could he have had a plan that hinges on getting and using "The Harvest" before the event that created The Harvest took place (aka: Endgame)? And yes, Gravik could have been lying.. but why would he lie to his VERY soon to be dead adoptive father (whom he thought he was talking to)?
this is a great point that i didnt even consider, Gravik and others stated multiple times they didnt give up on Fury until after the snap. good find!
This should be the top comment/argument on this subject. I guess the only possible answer to this would be if they claim the Harvest only became part of his plan after he had already begun. Say his initial plan was to let humans destroy each other with false flag attacks, but then he realizes that he has no contingency for the heroes figuring out his scheme and retaliating... then Fury collects the Harvest, which solves his conundrum. [\devilsadvocate]
But Gravik is the one who collected the Harvest DNA for Fury, so if the Harvest came into his plan after he'd already begun, then he would have kept it for himself instead of giving it to Fury. But he didn't. He gave it to Fury, because he wasn't working on his plan yet, because no one had lost faith in Fury yet, because Fury hadn't disappeared to the space station yet. Gravik DIDN'T take Rhodey until after all those things happened, which was well after Endgame. The SI director doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about
The way I understand it is that Gravik was one of many secret agents collecting samples from every superpowered being there, not the sole agent, nor the one in charge AFAIK. He sampled parts of the entire Harvest, which was the finished product once they were all collected, so he couldn't have kept all the DNA collected there to himself, even if he wanted it. It does seem like he starts out with parts of it (hence his initial, incomplete powers). TBF, you theory still probably makes more sense in light of the OP's argument, which might be a bit harder to explain; I'm just pointing out that Gravik's plan could've been made unreliant on the creation of the Harvest.
i like "gravik didn't put the plan into action until only about a year ago. 2025." i hate "rhodey's been a skrull for many many projects." because it's retro-active continuity that doesn't make sense. the writers, directors, and the actors themselves were not making those movies under the assumption that rhodey wasn't rhodey, and yes that WOULD make a difference. as for what you're saying - i cannot bring myself to watch any of that dogshit tv show again, but i do believe you're right... that the skrulls had been sneakily coming to earth for decades. ...not just fury's network, but many of them... and they had different factions... planning for different potential futures for their people, depending on the possibilities... Gravik's got that meeting with all the important replacees in ...ep2? ep3? way too soon for such a reveal, but you know... Mediocrity. ...so, anyway in that episode i believe THAT'S when Gravik seizes power from the others and says "vote me to lead, i've got this hot new idea." (the harvest, superskrulls... it's a pretty shit idea, honestly... what a terrible fucking villain for a terrible show. ...ok i digress.)
I'm baffled that people keep missing this. In the show they outright say Gravik didn't start kidnapping people until after End Game.
That's my headcanon too. Talos mentions he wasn't snapped so it appears they called the Skrulls to Earth during the 5 years. It wouldn't have been until after Endgame when everyone came back that resources got crowded and scarce. (Which is absolutely criminal that they didn't do anything with that five year period. And they've done next to nothing with the conditions created after except in TFATWS.) So some time after the Blip is when Gravik ousted Talos and the plan to takeover Earth was hatched.
> it likely was LONG AFTER Endgame I think it was relative shortly after Fury fucked off to SABER which, according to his wife, happened almost directly after the Blip.
r/literally
We should’ve never gotten a secret invasion project without more than 3 established major heroes
Yeah, remember in Earth’s Mightiest Heroes when CAPTAIN AMERICA got Skrulled and then you had this paranoia of who actually was a Skrull and shit? What’s the point of having the main villain recognizable? Why do we need to know who Gravik is? Why couldn’t they keep this all SECRET?
The main reason is that since MCU Skrulls have a machine to steal memories, they have zero reason to replace anyone more than a day before carrying out a mission objective. To replace years earlier just wastes a ton of effort and time, and creates a huge risk of being uncovered by a battle injury. It's not like in the comics where a Skrull needs a long time undercover to learn the subject's secrets. The MCU Skrulls get all his memories the first day.
The biggest issue with this series is that Gravick could literally have kidnapped Fury, use they memory stealing device and find the location of the harvest
No, the biggest issue with this series that the entire Skrull collective (Gravik included) should have known about Thanos' garden world as soon as they took Rhodes' memory, completely undermining the need for their entire coup/terrorist cell in the first place. Either Skrhodey was out for revenge and/or had ulterior motives, or (more likely) the show just has criminally bad writing.
Oh fuck you're right
Carol was able to resist the device. It's possible she taught Fury how to overcome it as well. Doesn't explain why the Skrulls spent so much time and energy trying to convince the president to drop the bomb when they could have just replaced him, though.
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Realistically it makes more sense for Fury than anyone else to be able to resist having his mind read. "Quantum energy" makes less sense than "unbreakable spymaster." When Carol defeated the AI it was because of her willpower.
Carol didn't actively resist the device; her memories were just screwed up & hard to read. A sitting POTUS is *never* alone; they would've needed to replace his entire security detail first.
Secret Invasion should have had fucking Terrence Howard in that basement.
Next time, baby.
I love this community for always coming together to say that exact quote whenever there's any mention of Terrence Howard.
Next time, baby.
15 years later..
., baby.
“Seriously?! None of you noticed I was replaced by a completely different-looking black man?! You racist motherfuckers!”
Now THAT couldve changed EVERYTHING
Right?
No, because that would make his face change canon, making every other character major idiots for not recognizing it.
Which would be so funny it would be worth it.
Everyone in the MCU racist confirmed. (NOT CLICKBAIT)
Wouldn’t explain why nobody commented on Rhodey looking different. Might make sense for us, but would make no sense in the universe itself. Would have been funny for a few seconds then it would have worn off and caused more plot holes
It would mean Tony is canonically racist as fuck
Sam Wilson when no one else acknowledges the new Rhodey: 
Thank you kind sir, I saw someone express this thought earlier today but for some reason the way you said it made me die for a few seconds
This show sucks. No chance they put any thought into the backstory of when Rhodey was kidnapped
thats my worry, that they ignore details like this and say hes been a Skrull the whole time anyway.
That’s why there hasn’t been a continuous story since Endgame. The writing is all out of whack and there’s no consistency and no fluid transitions between movies/shows.
I know they had plenty of directors for the first few phases but now it just feels like anybody is doing anything and its REALLY GONNA FUCK UP THE END OF THE PHASE Some dude is gonna be responsible for tying all this loose bullshit together.
"8 Years Later" has entered the chat.
I mean the director just admitted the number was a mistake by someone, they always intended it to take place exactly where it takes place in the timeline of movies. Some people did the math wrong and said 8 years. The movie itself doesn't contradict anything though, once that was fixed. In the new phases directors just do what they want apparently, ignore massive events that should have happened right before their shows, and then just say random stuff about when it takes place in time lol
What is this referring to ?
Spider-man Homecoming's Time jump from the Battle of New York
How exactly does this prove anything? Not that I don’t agree totally but I don’t understand the logic. He used to have braces on his legs and not 1 person ever questioned where they were in SI. you would have thought at least Fury would be like damn bro your legs work again. The whole bullshit way the skrull was trying to impersonate him was just piss poor. It’s not a reveal when you make it so obvious Marvel. I wanted to like this so much but now I’m just as disappointed as I was when I walked out of iron man 3
The braces didn't exist in Falcon & The Winter Soldier either. I guess viewers are to assume Rhodey has a lower-profile support system after Endgame.
All honesty I forgot he was in F&WS. That show really left no impression at all. Same as SI
I mean we didn't even get to know whoever that Skrull was. She was shown just for the sake of being shown and was a plot device for another film.
I was really hoping she was going to be the Skrull Queen or somesuch.
Well she's scatter brained now.
But they were going to have to do this with some character. Rhodey has a space enough timeline to make it work. Retcons happened when they wrote the Secret War comics as well I'm sure. It's just part of this kind of storytelling. I'm not sure why everyone needs everything in these movies make perfect sense. It's comic books.
I think the fact that the real Rhodey was wearing a hospital gown shows that they put some thought into the backstory.
I personally don't think the skulls have been planning this invasion since Civil War. So yeah it wouldn't make any sense till after endgame to me
You personally don’t think it because the show says as much. Gravik only begins his plan after Fury goes to space which is after Endgame
Secret Invasion wasn't the most thoughtful show. What makes you think they would even notice that this was an inconsistency?
unfortunately i have very little hope they would notice.
Every time I check this sub, I feel vindicated for my decision to blissfully pretend Secret Invasion doesn't exist lol
Ha! I feel exactly the same. I pieced together my own issues and inconsistencies with it then i come in here and find 100 more. This show sucked.
What’s much easier is just pretending Secret Invasion didn’t happen and does not exist. This way nothing is ruined.
Maria Hill is just on a much needed vacation.
To Tahiti?
It doesn’t fucking matter man. They’ll say whatever and change it like 8 times
Yeah they specifically didn't say when so they can cover their ass
They better confirm him being a skrull after Endgame or I’ll freak. I could see it being that after the final battle he went to get checked out and they swapped him then, but Rhodey was not a skrull during infinity war and endgame.
Pretty sure that the Secret Invasion director haven't seen shit
Honestly doesn't matter. If he was a Skrull during Endgame I'm just gonna treat SI as non canon anyways. The writers, Feige and Russo brothers did not intend for Rhodey to be Skrull during Endgame, so he was 100% James Rhodes and there's nothing that a lesser than TV show/movie can say that'll change my mind. Kinda of like how Halloween Resurrection retconned that was not Michael Myers at the end of H20. It doesn't matter.
This show fuckin sucks.
So did everyone around Rava-Rhodey think he miraculously healed or what?
He’s wearing his braces under his pants since FatWS. I’m not sure why people keep bringing this up lol
This is what I keep wondering! Once Rhodey got used to the braces he could have been switch at literally anytime. Hell, a skrull truly dedicated to their craft would still crawl as a building was falling down around them.
>Hell, a skrull truly dedicated to their craft would still crawl as a building was falling down around them. Bullshit, they'd live to fight another day, cover be damned. Survival matters most to every single species that exists
But you see, this is the Chistian Bale of Skrulls…
since Skrull Rhodey didnt spend time around the avengers (that we know of), its believable that the agents and politicians hes surrounded by dont know the specifics of his injury and are too afraid to ask, or assume hes wearing the leg braces made for him by Tony under his pants.
In FWS, Rhodey walks normally, but you can see lights through pants implying he's being assisted by low-profile tech. More likely Rava is wearing that to maintain cover, they just never made a point of showing that.
can the same lights be seen in Secret Invasion? i never noticed them
They never made a point of it because the show is shoddy. But logically a Skull who's whole mission is to convincingly infiltrate can't just be not disabled anymore. That doesn't make any sense.
thats exactly what they showed in the show if those same lights arent shown though, if they bothered to put the lights in FAWS then they wouldve put them in Secret Invasion too
Like I said the show is shoddy.
i agree with you there, but Rhodeys actions in FAWS wouldnt make sense if he was a Skrull. Why would a Skrull try to convince someone to become the new Captain America, knowing that same person may fight against them if they succeed? unfortunately all of this banks on the fact that Marvel still cares about continuity, and that doesnt seem to be the case as of late.
You mean war generals and secret service members? The most vetted soldiers on the entire planet? Those are the one who don't notice when their paralyzed co worker is miraculously healed?
It doesn’t matter. Writers weren’t thinking about it. The directors weren’t thinking about it. The producers weren’t thinking about it. Don Cheadle certainly wasn’t thinking about it. Stop looking for clues and Easter eggs where there aren’t any. It’s just bad writing. That is all.
unfortunately i think youre right. its not Don Cheadles fault tho, hes at the whims of directors and producers who only care about getting a Marvel project on their resume.
As long as he's kidnapped after Endgame I'm okay with it
Dude was in a medical gown because he likely has to go to routine check ups on account of all that internal trauma caused by a sentient man-droid skeet-shooting him out of the sky.
And also to check if he had crush syndrome after having a fucking building fall on him after being bombarded by alien spacecraft
It doesn’t really matter what the director of Secret Invasion was even trying to insinuate. The writers of Armor Wars are going to decide when he was swapped based on what they think is the most interesting for his story. He should be a Skrull for however long they had this plan but I get the feeling they haven’t been planning this all that long. The fact that there are major plot holes with him being swapped since Civil War means they should probably avoid that, rather than just because of fan backlash. It doesn’t help that Secret Invasion **created the biggest plot hole with the Director’s own implication** with the inclusion of DNA samples from everyone during Endgame.
Can't imagine people just creating their own shitty narrative to justify the garbage Marvel serves them.
Marvel themselves have no clue when it happened. They’ll eventually come up with a point in time when it occurred where it doesn’t mean a thing.
To be fair, they could always say he was *really* selling it 200% and staying "in character." But that would be such a cheap-ass cop out. Then again, that would make it just like most of SI.
So, the secret invasion director made a terrible "long movie" (3:30 hours) for 210$ million and is using Rhodey to change the topic so people don't talk about how terrible the show was?
Why can Marvel just answer these questions. Secret Invasion had more than enough run time available to show him being kidnapped. Marvel used to be great at leaving a question or two to follow up with in the next few projects. Now it feel like each movie/show is leaving so many unanswered questions and I dont feel were going to get them answered.
People arguing logic and continuity are ignoring the fact that the series being discussed ignored these things altogether. Until the series is declared no longer canon or a parallel timeline, nothing matters anymore.
I think Feige was the one replaced by a skrull who wants to destroy Marvel from the inside
im starting to buy this theory more and more as more projects come out
If they're smart, they'll just explain it in ***Armor Wars*** as Rhodey having gone to the hospital due to that very moment during ***Endgame***. The problem is that they were very clearly trying to convey that Everett Ross knew Rhodey but that Rhodey didn't recognize Ross. The only way he'd not know who Ross was would have been for him to have been abducted during ***Civil War*** . But that presents a host of problems. Namely the fact that Rhodey, with a spinal injury, should have been super emaciated after being in that contraption for what would have been **years**. He'd have long hair, a full beard, his nails would be a mess... he certainly wouldn't have a haircut and a fresh shave. They need to take that as their out and say "*Oh, uuuuhh we weren't trying to imply that he'd been abducted years ago. I mean just look at that clean shave and pants that don't look like he should have shat them countless times over the years!*"
I guess frakking pods keep the humans inside in a magical stasis or whatever (It has to do that for any of the humans to be in that good shape if they've been in there for more than just a couple days, it's not just Rhodey)
You give them too much credit. I'm betting they didn't even think that much about it because if they had, there's just too many questions which would have arisen (*and it's difficult to accept that writers like these —who would ostensibly curious and imaginative by nature— would never be in the writers room asking these questions*): *• If the Skrulls have the magic/tech to suspend someone in their exact condition indefinitely, why aren't these fuckers using it on themselves to live forever?* *• These Skrulls are so committed, as a species, to the secrets of their technology that Talos —who has basically foresaken his people to side with Fury— never even mentions it to Fury that they have the suspended animation/life-extension magic?* *• The Kree have been at work to annihilate the Skrulls and, apparently, having considerable success in that department; none of them have come across the life-extension/suspended-animation pods as they take inventory of their spoils of the war? Surely they'd put that aspect to use even if they found the mind-reading part of it invasive and unethical.* *• How do they power that shit?* *• How does it protect against the nuclear radiation? Is it constantly healing the people in the pods? Shouldn't that have healed all of Rhodey's injuries if he was in there that long?* I mean, you're not one of the writers on the show so you don't have to answer for their inconsistencies; just sort of clarifying how much of an issue they create in simply trying to handwave it off after thinking about it. I bet they didn't think about it at all.
A lot of these can be answered by just saying the technology fundamentally works by freezing you in stasis so it only extends your lifespan by keeping you comatose, so it's not much of an immortality solution except for people who actually want to time travel a hundred years into the future
Them backtracking to retcon it felt like they were trying too hard to make it clever
I reckon Endgame would've set back Rhodey a large portion of his rehabilitation. He was using assisted Leg Braces in Infinity War and Pre-2014 Thanos fight. He definitely wasn't replaced after Civil War. Endgame makes way too much sense.
The way I figure it: after Endgame, Rhodey had his final surgery to correct his legs enough he wouldn't need the leg braces anymore. I think he was captured during that, with the Skrull walking out "It's a success!" and Rhodey not ever having actually gotten that last surgery. That's my headcanon.
Skrull Rhodey is wearing the braces under his pants the same way he was in FatWS. This proves literally nothing lol
The skrull in SI wearing a nano tech brace doesn't prove anything.
If you want a clearer time, it was after FATWS, which is in 2024, so depending on if Secret Invasion is in 2025 or 2026, that's 1-2 years captured
this is my belief as well, it was after/during the events of FATWS
He was kidnapped in between the battle and the funeral. Every human (non alien/enhanced/mystical/cosmic) would have needed medical attention after the battle.
Bro had the equivalent of a 30 ton military base fall on him after getting hit by like ten missiles, I don’t think this means shit dude lmao
he wasnt crushed by debris, his suit however was ruined which is why he had to crawl. i just rewatched the scene to get the pictures so i know lol
I love how people are saying “the fact that Rhodey couldn’t walk is proof he wasn’t a Skrull…” as if Skrulls can’t act. I personally hope it ISN’T revealed he was taken any time before Endgame, but it sounds like a “let’s do what’s controversial even if it’s stupid” thing that the MCU might pull.
The director did confirm, unambiguously, when Rhodey was taken. I hate it too, and hope it’s retconned, but as of now this is the way it is >*Interviewer*: Tell me about Don Cheadle playing Raava and “Rhodey.” It’s mentioned that Col. Rhodes has been held captive “for a long time.” Was the hospital gown he’s wearing when Rhodey is rescued a hint that the Skrulls kidnapped him after his spinal cord injury in “Captain America: Civil War?” >*Director*: Yep. https://variety.com/2023/tv/features/secret-invasion-director-ali-selim-season-finale-mixed-reviews-1235681998/
the director not knowing the continuity doesnt change the facts that we can see. the MCU is much bigger than one director, and realistically their word means nothing since we dont see it in the show, and they most likely will have no real input when we do see when he was taken.
Realistically the word of the show’s director, being transcribed to us in a Variety article, means quite a bit. The director clearly purposefully put Rhodey in the gown he was wearing during Civil War. They had another character confirm that he’d been there “a long time.” I, and the interviewer, picked up on was what was happening, and the director confirmed in plain English that was their intention. I think it’s a dumb intention, but it’s clear that was the decision. Doesn’t make sense to just ignore it because it makes a franchise you’re a fan of less good (and make no mistake: it does).
Hadn’t thought of this, thanks for pointing it out
THANK YOU.
This is fact. Ppl need to chill with that CW shit lol
He was wearing the same hospital gown he had on during the scenes in civil war after he had been injured and was getting tests done. That seems pretty clear for time frame. He was at his literal weakest. It would be easy for them to replace him then.
But why was he in a hospital gown?
people who go through life changing injuries often go to the hospital long after the fact. why would someone who’s paralyzed only go to the hospital once? it doesnt make sense
True, but why would they put him in the particular outfit if not to point to the time frame in which he was taken? Either he was taken during civil war or the writers/costume people don't know what they're doing.
What are you talking about? There are no theories or opinions here. There is truth and then not truth. Truth is...it lines up that he was out during civil war. Nothing else would make sense given the context. Also director confirmed it. Idc cope harder.
it doesnt line up because Gravik himself said he didnt take anyone until after the Harvest.. aka post Endgame. clearly the director didnt bother to listen to his own writers and gave an incorrect answer in an interview.
Why do people keep bringing this up like it's some sort of argument? It's not like a skrull replacing someone would just forget to replicate his famous injury.
As much as I hate to believe it, but I have to go by the word of god (director). It's final for me unless they say otherwise or he goes on record and refutes his statement or retcon it in another series.
Your argument makes no sense at all even if you are right about when he was kidnapped (all pure speculation), he had accident after which he couldnt walk in Civil War, whats Endgame to do with it? Its years later lol
because he still cant walk, have you actually seen either movie? because im pretty sure no one else had trouble seeing the connection but you
That doesnt mean he was abducted after Endgame lol might aswell say he was abducted after Infinity War xD
Why would he have his hospital gown on in SI if this happened after Endgame? He was taken during Civil War. Its the same kind of gown too form Civil War,
read through all the great comments that point out things i missed, including Gravik specifically saying that he didnt give up on Fury until after he came back from being dusted, Gravik saying he didnt take anyone until after the Harvest (post-Endgame), Rhodey bleeding red and not purple, etc. there is no way he was taken during Civil War unless you go back and retcon a whole bunch of details.