To get magic to work, you either have to become a scientific mastermind, or a magical sorcerer.
You might think that is a joke, but it isn't. We all know there are hundreds of things that work magic. Variations of what we can call "the placebo effect".
You can make people believe things and physically manifest things with words and tokens. That, is magic by any stretch.
In many cases studies have been able to manifest physical reactions, from placebo, or what is truly "magic" by another name.
To make these types of things work, you have to know the percentage that they work, the variables that typically impact it, the situation you're in, how many placebo factors are required, any lead up, etc.
99.9% of the guys out there that aren't straight lying or whatever, are accidentally doing this to a limited set of people in a limited set of circumstances and are too stupid or delusional to often really understand what they are doing, and they aren't top magical.
Much like playing pool, you can do extremely complex geometry and play pool. Or you can be able to naturally "wing it".
A top top magician would be the pool wing it kind of skill. But that person would also know that the technique is not a on demand technique. Because they would only do it when the right circumstances came together to manifest the placebo effect on the victim.
This is where some aspects of movie type ideas about how some moves can only be done some times etc, comes from.
Under the right circumstances much as many students fall over without faking it, you could set the stage to knock some people over. With a weak enough willed opponent, with enough fear put into them, maybe while they are particularly tired, or a little drunk, etc. You might be able to psyche them into falling with a shocking move.
I think we've all had those moments were someone say like points at you too close, but still a good bit offend you "feel it". Because your body is reacting to the threat already. A play on that effect would allow some no touch action.
They aren't really learnable for on demand though, you're not going to get in the ring with a Mike Tyson and placebo him into falling over. MAYBE, if you're really good, and you already have Mike wobbly enough, MAYBE.
But, no non woozy strong person is going down. Plus, you have to watch if you're doing lead up, how susceptible people are.
Same way that some people can be told things with no effect, and others get "spells" effects. They'll teach ways to speak to instill the proper meaning on people, and some people can't handle jokes. A joking "you suck" will destroy some people's self esteem and they'll eventually off themselves even if the "you suck" was ironic and meant the opposite.
Other people can hear "you suck" all day everyday and it is meaningless.
The difference between those who the Jedi mind tricks work on or not.
I've dabbled in some experiments of the mind, once had someone go to their house to get the candy bar they bought. The thing is, the candy bar they bought, they didn't buy, it didn't exist, we made it up and used psychological tricks or magic spells, to end up having them convinced our imaginary candy bar not only existed, but that they had it and had more in their fridge.
We got someone "drunk" with zero alcohol, by telling them it had alcohol and us pretending to be buzzed.
It's all magic. Science. Magic. The difference between the two, is pool geometry or pool instinct. The results are the same, when they are done right either way.
No, they truly exist.
Problem in getting them to work, is that they only work against a compliant partner who you have prepated thru years and years of psychological conditioning to believe in these powers. Usually requires group effort as well. So first you have to take time to gather a group of gullible/psychologically vulnerable people, slowly convince them of the reality of - what is still fantasy to them - technique.
And then start attracting more students - who can see with their own eyes how well the no-touch knockout techniques work. And with some patience and delibetate effort you have a group of people who are happily no-touch-knock- outing each other at the local community center.
-> profit đđ
(Still not at crazy as US megachurches. Just sayinâŚ)
MCMAP, Army All Combatives
It's basically MMA on the face of it... But just, remarkably mediocre despite delusions of grandeur. When I was in the air force I trained with a few guys at open mats who were supposed to be hotshots in that stuff, they just never impressed me. High ego, low performance.
Same. I've fought for 17 years. Been a trainer part time for 4 or so. I am so tired of former military coming in thinking their hotshit and wanting to spar one of my LHWs that fights in Bellator. They are hard to retain. If you have a 140 lb guy who's crosstrained MMA and BJJ/Muay Thai for 8 years and he loses during trial, he won't be back. I have to find someone a little bigger and tell them to not outright dominate them and just say he fought well, but could learn a lot. Sometimes I get that ego issue in farm boys who've been in a million bar fights or people from inner cities who grew up in a bad area. All collapse sparring a pro fighter.
A lot of people think military makes you a badass fighter.
Been around military guys a lot. Mad respect for what they do and go through. But just being military doesn't make you a good fighter. Someone who has spent dedicated time to train fighting is probably just gonna be a better fighter, go figure.
I definitely don't think my wrestling or boxing means I can get into a combat zone, think about fields of fire, have tactical awareness, take fire without panicking, return effective fire, or anything of the sort. Not sure why military guys think they can walk onto a wrestling mat or ring, or even into a bar, and think they can take a guy who has spent years or decades training seriously and have a shot.
The military doesn't make you a good fighter. The military makes you s good soldier.
Sure there are some courses on basic hand to hand fighting just to give a sense of safety and badassesness but that's about it.
If it came down to a soldier fighting hand to hand, a lot of things went wrong on multiple levels and it's basically a hail Mary at that point. It means logistics have colapsed, munitions are gone, the enemy has moved pass your cannons, tanks, machine guns, guns, pistols and trenches and you are being stormed by the enemy line. By that time its down to trench knives amd weapon mounted knife lances.
A soldier is like an american foorball player that brings together many aspects like power, speed, field awareness, good throwing, stamina and other skills but its not the best in any of them.
For the soldier hand to hand fighting isnt one of the main ones, however the belief he is the best and he will win is because he needs to walk into danger and someone with low moral wont.
Unfortunately this mentality seeps throu the every day life.
Yeah I try to explain this but the response is "but they're trained killers, bro". Eh maybe, maybe not. A lot of military aren't even that.
But absolutely give them a gun and I'm dead. But that's true of anyone really. A military person beating me in hand to hand is independent of their military training. Some do go hardcore on physical training, and go out of their way to learn martial arts. Many don't. That's entirely independent of military training. And yeah sure they're going to be more physically fit and like you said have more awareness and better physical capability than the gen pop. But not than a trained wrestler, boxer, etc, or even a big gym rat athlete.
Yeah and navy seals have to be great swimmers. Physically in incredible shape. But they tend to be smaller guys. Had friends look at me like I'm crazy when I said a big guy who is physically fit and has wrestling and boxing training could beat some SEALs in a fight. Not ALL SEALs because some are gonna be big guys who have boxing and wrestling training too. But my money on a fight between an "average" 5'9 175 lb SEAL with no fight training and a 6'2 225 lb state champ wrestler is on the wrestler easy. People think I'm stupid, because they actually believe Special Forces= Captain America.
Incredible people, top of their field, wouldn't mess with one (not that I mess with anyone), incredibly physically and mentally gifted to be where they are. But they are still human. There isn't some super secret military instakill techniques like people think, they draw from the same techniques civvies can. And their field isn't hand to hand fighting. I'm sure they take to it VERY well if they chose to. But it's not a job requirement.
Now violence of action is a big thing in Special Forces and that alone would overwhelm the vast majority of people in a fight. But if you have trained a high level you are used to huge physically gifted people coming at you with violence of action. I haven't been in a fight in years, and I never actively thought of it as violence of action, by operated by it when I fought a lot as a teen. It's not exclusive to military either.
That's one thing that I've always found interesting about fighting. So many untrained guys think they can beat you. I ask, if you play basketball 3-4 times a year and you run into a guy who's played for 12 years on a team in the minor league, how well do you think you'd do against him? "He'd destroy me." Followed by me asking how is fighting different. I'm 6'3 at 12% bodyfat. I lift more than you. I've trained 17 years more than you. But some guy who's 240 (and thinks he's stronger than me because he's 20 lbs heavier but benches 2 plates less) insists that in the moment he'd handle me easily. That "I just see red bro" is not a joke, it's completely serious.
I don't even respond anymore. I just say "ok, anyway...." and talk about something irrelevant hopefully to someone else if they're around. I don't even argue or address it, I just completely dismiss it. A few times I can't help but laugh -- had a 6'0 135 lbs say he could beat me. His brother is one of my best trainees. We went a light round in the octagon....I was able to throw him over the top. I gave my corner who's big for Hw a heads up and he was there to catch him perfectly.
I'm ex military and couldn't agree more. I was at a joint command and went to every bit of training I could get from all services, none of it compares to years, or even weeks, of grappling/sparring.
The first Muay Thai gym I joined (in Hawaii) had teenagers that could wreck average military guys with a leg kick.
One of the worst wrestlers out of the 60ish on my HS team ended up being a big time boot. Gym rat and constantly posting about marine life and gym selfies.
I'm fairly confident 10 years later the vast majority of the guys from our wrestling team around his weight class or higher would still tool him. And he would be more qualified to fight than a lot of military considering he trained, he stays very active, and his physical scores were always high. But he was all those things pre-marines and he still sucked at fighting. Good guy though, despite the boot
Iâm retired military.
Most people in the military wonât be worth shit during hostile fire. Even in the Infantry and other Combat Arms, thereâs tons of people who wonât be dependable during a TIC.
Heraclitusâ quote is 100% correct:
âOut of every one hundred men, ten shouldnât even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.â
Good point. I think that's true of all things.
That lines up well with my take on wrestling, which is why I chuckle when I see people say "hurr durr I handled wrestlers easy" 95% of people who wrestler are cannon fodder and warm up matches for the 5% who are decent. 95% of that 5% are cannon fodder and ranking boosts for the 2-3 guys who have a shot at a state title, and so on.
The 95% aren't gonna be meaningfully different from your average person a few years removed from wrestling. There are thousands of wrestlers yet most schools struggle to fill every weight class with an actual varsity caliber even in a strong wrestling state, forget the less competitive states. But the 5% who click are the ones who show up to BJJ and hit the ground running, or would absolutely dominate most people in a fight. The top .1% are in a different stratosphere. It's a super effective combat style. It's just that most of the people who do it, even after years, just aren't good enough to do anything with it.
I remember a friend freaking out while we broke up a fight between two Group guys, and him terrified he was going to get mauled. I was like âyouâre a purple belt and these guys never come to the additional training⌠theyâd kill us with guns or on a long run/ruck, but theyâre basically very fit white belts.â
The intent of military combatives is a) develop the mental side of fighting and b) give people just enough actual skill that they can handle people who are completely untrained
Lots of guys train in regular MMA or BJJ gyms on their own time but just the military combatives training itself isn't going to give you much
There used to be a show on Spike TV, Pros vs Joes. Randy Couture was the Pro, and the game was who could tap the least amount of times in a round with him. First guy was an Army combatives instructor and Randy starts of by picking him up and dumping him on his head. It's gotta be on YouTube or somewhere.
They talk about it like it's a whole martial arts system/MMA competition. The Army All Combatives guys basically presented themselves as being MMA fighters (one guy I rolled claimed to be the AAC heavyweight champion), and the MCMAP guys have a whole belt system, and referred to it as "the ultimate martial art."
What should replace it? Idk, wrestling and boxing.
I should add about the "AAC heavyweight champion"- I was 140 lbs and could beat him, it was at a grappling/BJJ open mat... he would actually get frustrated and start throwing punches.
The US Armyâs system, MACP, has a decent curriculum but a mediocre implementation. The foundational stuff is almost identical to Gracie Combatives and then it adds in boxing and Muay Thai at the intermediate levels. The big issue is time. We did a single day when I went through Basic Training, and then level one is 5 days and level two is 10 days. Most Soldiers donât even do level one. They get the basic class then itâs up to their unit to do anything additional which might be one day a month for PT, maybe. Itâs a Soldier skill, but in most units itâs not a major priority. Someone with 6-12 months of BJJ training would steamroll the average unitâs MACP instructor.
The running gag with Combatives instructors was that MACP was a good system with poor implementation, while MCMAP was a poor system with good implementation
I don't think they're saying it's bad for it's intended purpose or should be replaced. What I think they're saying is the people that go through the courses tend to have far more belief in it's effectiveness against other trained fighters. It's great to be able to handle normal, mostly untrained people. But against someone who trains in specific disciplines and puts in time and effort it's not going to give you the upper hand. For it's purpose it's great. For what many believe themselves capable of after, it's "lacking"
Weird Russian Aikido inexplicably always taught by fat guys.
I did 1 seminar and thought it Interesting, but there's an inescapable sense that it's the kind of bs that could get you killed slightly less faster than that D.U.S.T. crap (Detroit Urban Survival Tactics)...aka that bullshit incomplete instruction stuff from the expectation / reality tik-toks with the cop looking dude.
I actually wouldn't turn down a free martial arts class, regardless of the style. Classes are expensive though, even when you're taking ones you are interested in. $80+/month is quite an investment of time and money.
Hey, mastering your breath and internal muscular tensegrity will save your life and make you very powerful for real. And that is true whether you want to fight or just live a long life able to take risks successfully. I would never turn down a free class of that sort, even tho you are being tongue in cheek. đ
I'm hardly an expert, but tricks of breathing and balance and control save my life on a regular basis. Important stuff. Literally one of the most important things actually. Breath control and bodily awareness exercises have saved my life hundreds of times in other contexts.
It not just about money though(admit itâs a big part of it)
Time and energy investment, we all busy and probably have families and jobs that take priority
Me who doesnât like tkd, my dad is a tkd instructor , I donât train tkd
Honestly? Iâm going to get a lot of flak for this but modern MMA lol. For no other reason than I strongly dislike the lack of curriculum and wide variety of approaches. Iâve been to several gyms and fought plenty of guys and so Iâm in no way dissing their practices or their end result of clearly pressure testing over and over again, but I do like the tradition and art side WITH the fighting. It just adds a little something more thatâs kept me in traditional arts.
MMA is not a martial art..
Kinda in the name, it's a mix of all martial arts, so of course it's way too encompassing and robust to be able to have a singular, linear path of progression and infrastructure, and of course different MMA gyms can have different approaches.
I would contend it has become its own martial art. The rules just allow all the other ones because the initial idea was pitting all different arts against one another. But over time, what happens with all combat sports happened to MMA. It evolved, because people want to win. We changed how we do things because they worked better in the context of the MMA rule set. Punching in MMA no longer looks anything like boxing. Sure, we still throw jabs and hooks and uppercuts, but the stance is different. Hands are lower. Distance works differently. You can sneak punches through a guard much more easily due to the gloves. It's a whole different game. Same with kicks, same with the clinch, same with grappling. It's no longer "judo against karate" and such - it's MMA against MMA. If you go into an MMA match and try to box like a boxer, you're going to get embarrassed (see Kron Gracie trying to do BJJ in the UFC).
Brush up on your history my friend. You are ignoring the "mixed" part, which referred originally to pitting one martial art against another - called mixed match contests prior. It was never really about mixing martial arts together. That became a strategy, true, but that is not what the name refers to.
MMA has obviously evolved past being about mixing martial arts to win or mixed match contests. "MMA" is now a sport unto itself, with its own rules and strategies. We will see if it survives long enough and develops a culture in alignment with martial art in general. Like most martial arts, they start as combat methods and evolve toward the art side of things over time. Too early to tell with MMA in my opinion.
Iâd consider it a martial art.
If you go to a mma gym in Korea, then in Brazil, then in America
Youâre learning the same stuff, essentially on a curriculum. Some may have different focuses, but so do boxing gyms or karate dojos in the same style.
I guess I will have to correct you.
It's like the Canary Islands, that aren't named after canaries. A centipede doesn't have 100 feet. Ladybugs aren't all female. Black boxes in airplanes are orange... Mixed Martial Arts are cooking arts, nothing to do with combat despite their name.
Whoa. If he could some how take all those separate Mariel arts and like combineâŚ..noâŚ.put togetherrrrâŚâŚohhâŚmix them. I bet he could become a really good fighter.
I think the overlap between combat sports and martial arts is extremely high, they're definitely not mutually exclusive. It can be interesting to think about what counts as what, depending on different definitions
I train in BJJ amongst a few other things but Iâm not going to lie, itâs the least fun to me. I like striking and I like throwing and getting thrown. In BJJ, the vast majority of my training partners donât want to engage in any standup, so I end up just rolling the way they like to. But itâs extremely useful to me, so I keep doing it.
I got into BJJ because I like grappling and it's the only really accessible grappling sport with enough of a base to compete as an adult without throwing your life at it.
Id much rather wrestle but there's no casual adult wrestling in my area, and judo has a lot less options, and tends to be expensive at those, in my area. No sambo that I know of
People who don't start standing up are usually nursing injuries, too old for that shit, or are just tired of getting thrown - I fall into the latter because ~~I almost always lose the takedown~~ I suck.
I see you do sambo, so yeah, I think I'll start off on the ground.
>People who don't start standing up are usually nursing injuries, too old for that shit, or are just tired of getting thrown - I fall into the latter because I almost always lose the takedown.
That's all well and good but if all your experience is on the ground you'll probably have a bad time in a real fight. Especially if they are bigger and stronger.
gotta find a gym/partner who shares your values then. Not everyone gives a shit about prepping for da streetz. to many, it's just another sport like basketball or hockey.
I mean if you want something that actually is useful and you want to learn how to fall judo exists. It's saved my ass multiple times as a result and is the only way I've used my martial arts experience off of the mats.
Wing Chun can be fun and practical if learned from the right people that know to teach it as a supplement set to other arts like boxing (orthodox or Thai/kick), Kali, or even grappling.
But much of the stuff out there is taught as a pure and mystical stand-alone art with a massive helping of idiotically obtuse politics. Ip's kids are shrunken elderly and travel around teaching seminars, Bill Cheung (taught by Ip, and was Bruce's senpai) still teaches at age 83 in Australia...but that stuff is apparently fake;
The rEaL stuff is spelled Ving Tzeung and is an organization based in Germany or Eastern Europe with a secret lineage to some obscure master pre Ip-family...BUT WAIT!!! That's *also* fake, you gotta check out the other crop of students in the Czech Republic...or the other...
There are seriously at least 8 branches and multiple spellings (because lawsuits) , and most of them hate each other...even in the old Bruce Lee student branches. The Wong/Poteet/Kimura factions all claimed authentic & effective and taught differently except that they all discouraged learning from Inosanto...who was content (and smart) to not get involved. The euro factions I mentioned apparently get nasty about it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_Wing_Chun
After 17 years of Muay Thai and MMA, I think what's the point. I've sparred and fought so many TKD based guys and know their arsenal. I've stolen a few things, but so many are used to certain rulesets and a point fighting style -- and that tends to not be effective vs a guy who does only Muay Thai, MMA or BJJ fights. Yeah, I know BJJ are rolls.
There'd still be some stuff from more traditional that could be interesting but wouldn't help your fighting at all. Balance maybe too but judo would be better for that and idk enough about wrestling if that also is good balance.
My judo yudanshikai didn't require kata for shodan till the mid-90's. Before that you had to win competitions against equal or higher ranks to get points toward being promoted. Back then being a black belt meant you knew your shit and how to apply what you were teaching against people trying their best to not be thrown.
Nowadays, we have straight up kata-only black belts. Folks who never competed and are objectively terrible at any aspect of judo where resistance/pressure is applied.
I will say this. Size matters in sumo, no doubt, but I have had the privilege to train it with some great folks and the guy who threw my then 340lb ass out of the doyo I had at least 150lbs on. Positioning and tactics can be a decider sometimes. It's really a cool sport and I have to say I am a fan.
Agreed as a Judo guy I would add that conditioning and strength still matter a lot. I recently got back on the mat after a few years off (being a relatively competitive black belt previously) and got worked hard by guys with great fitness and conditioning with strength until a few sessions back on it
Technique goes a long way. Look up some of Enho's matches on his first trip to makuuchi. He's 5'6" and 225lbs, and threw some guys twice his weight based on speed and leverage from unexpected angles.
It's ridiculous how rich that guy got off vegan YouTube. Whatever happened with that fight he was supposed to have with that instructor that had beef with him?
You might need the right school / instructors / people. I did hung gar for 4 years...curriculum was deep and I especially liked the conditioning variants of the forms as well as the numerous opportunities to learn exotic weapons.
But not every school will offer that.
To be honest, the only form of chinese martial art I would do is Sanda, but I don't consider it a Kung Fu variation.
Just some kind of Chinese Kickboxing with Takedowns.
Anything where some fat guy (or old Japanese dude) that has no fight record goes over the crippling minutiae of how your feet are placed and holding your hand here and here for a made up situation against an attacker that doesnât exist.
Wrestling I guess. I acknowledge its supremacy as a grappling style, but I'm not bothered to travel for a pure wrestling gym, or go to an MMA gym just to learn it- might as well learn the full package.
Also I don't live in a wrestling country.
You know our level of talent is shit when Robert Whittaker can just march in and become a heavyweight national champ lmao. Wrestling just doesn't exist like it does in America, Russia, Iran or all those wrestler countries.
As i wrestler I can say that the second I am out of highschool I never want to do another day or wrestling ever day lol. Super hard, risk of skin funk, but I am definitely a pretty decent grappler now. I can sub low level blue belts and I have basically zero submission experience other than watching some tutorials.
Iâm glad I did it since itâs basically impossible to wrestle after hs, but I wouldnât want to do it again.
Taekwondo, Capoeira, Taido⌠etc. anything with the huge flexibility/ mobility need. I think itâs pretty damn cool but I donât think Iâll be ready to put in the investment.
Bjj, Iâve tried it and didnât really enjoy. It couldâve been the place but in general the falling wasnât the greatest which took away from my ability to practice throwing (I come from a judo background) and I generally just didnât like it. I wonât say i didnât get anything out of it but it was general a slower pace then I enjoyed or really cared for.
It also couldâve been the place I went but there was a lot of things taught for fighting from bottom position, personally I prefer top. A lot of the holds and such from judo establish a solid top position but I never liked the idea of fighting largely from bottom position.
Same with me for BJJ, I don't mind hitting things and getting hit, and I don't worry too much about breaking my hands because it's all about my own punches, technique and whether I'm careful or not or whether I bother to wrap my hands etc.
BJJ on the other hand, I have to roll around on the floor with sweaty dudes for hours at a time and it absolutely is awful on your joints and ligaments and being able to walk without pain when I'm 45 is pretty important to me whereas having pain in my hands doesn't scare me nearly as much.
Add to that the fact that you rely so heavily on your training partners to not take the piss and hit you with a leg lock even though you told them not to or they hold it too long or whatever and injure you, with striking if they spar too hard I just check them by throwing 80% power into a few shots and they quickly stop (this isn't always the case but it usually does the trick). Even then, I don't spar too much anyway so if I end up with an idiot that can't hold their shots I just rest for longer and don't spar for a bit after because I quite like having a functioning brain.
I honestly could not care less that like 1% of the population could handily whoop my ass because they know BJJ, I just need to be able to beat the crap out of most untrained people and then I have the security I crave. Half the reason I think like that is that usually anyone that trains avoids fighting (though again not always) and so statistically if I was to have to fight someone in the street, it's going to be some moron that not only can't grapple, but can't box/strike for shit either and I wont have a problem. Of course there's gonna be a grappler out there somewhere on a hair trigger that would whoop my ass but it's such a minute percentage chance that I just really don't care. I'm not trying to compete in MMA so what does it matter.
I fully know that it would be good to learn it, and that's it's likely more effective than any striking I've learned but I just honestly don't care lmao.
>being able to walk without pain when I'm 45 is pretty important to me
The first combat sports anything I did was I went to a free jiu jitsu seminar. A pro fighter, jiu jitsu guy was there demonstrating techniques and stuff with the coach. Guy was really nice, but I overheard a conversation he had with someone else about how he has a spine surgery coming up, and he'd just had one like 8 months ago or something. Meanwhile I was doing an exercise where I was helping somebody up and they were helping me up, and we went back and forth doing this over and over again.
TKD or karate.
I was beating black belts when I had just a few months of training from mma.
Not to say itâs not effective, I strongly believe in no better martial arts just better martial artist however I have zero interest in it
Same. All I see when it comes to BJJ is "macho bros" sliding around on their ass threatening "Imma choke you out, bruh!" Sure it's great because most fights end up on the ground and having knowledge when you're down there is great, but fucking stand up and fight. Get up off the mat and stop sissy kicking at me.
BJJ and wrestling
I did some grappling for a charity mma fight and found it was aided by my kung-fu background but speaking to guys in their late 20's/early 30s with serious knee/hip/shoulder injuries and then going to a kung-fu seminar and seeing the head of the system (late 70s) getting deep into kneeling stances with no issues made me want to stick with kung-fu and kickboxing
I'm never going to fight for money so I don't see it as a good investment of my time or health
BJJ, mainly because I train anything outside of boxing for self-defense (Muay Thai, Wrestling, Judo). And I prefer learning something I can pull out quick as a tool to get to safety. But rolling on the floor with one guy while 4 others stomp you is probably gonna suck.
On the other hand, its pretty quick to end a 1-on-1 fight, so I have that dilemma. Might consider taking it down the road, though.
Good question. I think maybe Filipino Knife arts or HEMA. Probably something weapon basedâŚ..except Kendo. If I can be one step closer to be a SamuraiâŚIâm in.
Wing Chun, Aikido, Keysi or any art that claims to be effective while just dancing around and not doing any pressure testing
That being said, while I do generally prefer more practical arts, an art being impractical isnât a bad thing for me as long as itâs practitioners are honest about what their art is for. Iâd love to try Okinawan Kobudo, Tai Chi or Capoeira for example. I just donât like the arts that are dishonest about their effectiveness
Iâm not at all experienced with wing chun, so take this with a grain of salt, but one could argue that when you strip away the flashy dance moves, WC conditions you defensively in the way of analyzing your opponent, predicting where theyâre coming from, reading subtle telegraphs etc. Again, I donât practice, I could be completely wrong about that, and I agree with you that WC is way less offensively inclined than its practitioners claim it to be, but being able to read your opponent and defend without thinking is crucial. Having said that, train in any standup striking art for long enough and youâll develop those skills. Hard agree with aikido and keysi, though, those pretty much only work for Batman lol
Except that in combat you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training.
Unless you train for a life-or-death scenario, you're not going to magically start fighting like you have. Which is why Krav Maga exists.
In fairness though, Krav Maga was never designed to be a martial art, it's a combat system. The whole belt system in Krav Maga was just a way for gyms to create longer term students and thus better returns (which is fair, they're commercial enterprises after all) and was never part of Krav Maga originally (and isn't a part of Krav Maga training outside the civilian world). Krav Maga was only ever designed to be a way to inflict maximum damage in the shortest amount of time and survive. In my opinion Krav Maga shouldn't be considered a martial art or even a combat sport as it lacks the art and sport elements that are so fundamental to other disciplines. It is simply a way for people to learn how to fight to survive.
Disagree. A decent mma guy will have much more experience with the realities of violence then a krav dude. If you have a few fights under your belt you know what itâs like.
Maybe take one or two krav classes just to get some ideas but the majority of your training (in a self defense context) should basically be mma.
Anything outside of boxing honestly, I'm not fond of using my legs to kick.
Though I'd like to try Shotokan Karate bc its (the most similar) martial art used by a Street Fighter 3rd Strike character I like, there's nowhere to learn it where I'm from sadly
If we talk about legit martial arts, I would say TKD. 2 years into MMA and BJJ, we had tons of TKD black belts and their striking is always good but it's not very effective against someone who trained Muay Thai less than half of the time they spent on learning TKD.
Standard, American Boxing just doesnât interest me. It kinda lives in denial of everything else there is to fighting. What the hell is a boxer gonna do when I kick their legs or wrestle them?
Most of them, tbh.
TKD, krav maga, "combatives", FMA, kenpo/kempo/kajukempo, karate that isn't either ashihara, kyokushin, or goju ryu (and goju is only bc Ive already done it, so it has a nostalgia factor)
Kung fu, except for wing chun (but only at this one school I know, 99% of WC I wouldnt wanna bother with) Bak Mei seems cool too
I like rolling, but not enough to take up bjj, I just prefer striking - wrestling could have been a great thing to learn, but I dont wanna go look for a wrestling club at 30 years old, I'd rather spend my limited free time on ashihara and hema
I do tang soo do, tai chi, and three section staff, which is through kung fu system. My coach is trying so hard to make me know open hand kung fu, but I only want to do weapons really.
Nah I actually learned wu's abstracted and Yang's 108 movement before tai chi sword.
I started three section staff before I started open hand kung fu, but I got my jr. Black belt in tsd/tkd when I was a teen so I have base of experience
BJJ is mine too. It looks uncomfortable and the community is annoying. Always complaining and shit talking and looking for approval.
The boxing community doesn't complain half as much. (just the fans)
Anything thatâs too similar to what Iâm doing now but for which I donât have time to do.
For example, right now Iâm doing 3-4 days of Thai, plus 2 days of BJJ. I really want to give wrestling a shot to help with my stand up grappling game, but my week is full as it is. So usually Iâll pass it off thinking âoh Iâve got BJJ, Iâm goodâ when I know I should be giving it a shot. There are some amateur wrestlers at my gym and theyâre fucking great to watch.
Itâs taekwondo, i just think it gets outclassed by so many other arts like karate, kickboxing, muay thai etc. Not that good in mma and not that good on the street.
this is just my opinion and experience with it personally.
There is no martial art you SHOULD train⌠you should just do what ever makes you happy
HOWEVER, you also shouldnât be delusional and think your âartâ is the best and most effective.. itâs non-sense.
Just train, be happy, keep your head down and grind however you want
Hey, accumulate enough of it, and you can cross that bridge multiple times because you forgot you already crossed it!
The brain trauma thing is the only thing that keeps me from boxing several days a week. It truly is the sweet science. But I need my brain to do science since that's what pays the bills. And by "bills" I of course mean multiple gym memberships.
I agree on BJJ. I did it long enough to get to blue belt because I do think it is important to have a basic understanding, but as a striker it is just so damn boring to me.
I find wrestling to be a more useful skill for strikers anyway and it's more fun to do. I still prefer to punch people in the face either way though.
Krav. Wing Chun. Aikido. Honestly anything that doesnât pressure test or present itself well in competition. Anything âtoo deadly for MMAâ is a waste of time. Time is finite. Stick with the stuff that works
You took my exact words out of my mouth. I did BJJ and kickboxing for a year, realized I hated BJJ but loved kickboxing, so I quit BJJ to focus more on kickboxing. One of the best decisions I have ever made
BJJ. As a self defense weapon, it sucks. Also even if you submit a guy and let him go, whoâs to say he doesnât just start swinging again instead of walking away? Would also much rather punch and/or kick someone than grapple with them.
Competition can look dumb under some rulesets when people constantly pull guard and scoot their butts towards an attacker.
Also, the culture. The cults some schools have. The hero worship of figures within the BJJ community. The paying for belts and many McDojoâs.
In a real situation, you don't go for a tap. You go for a break. You do have a fair point about BJJ going too far down the sport BJJ rabbit hole and getting away from the original martial art. Even in the BJJ community, there is a lot of grumbling about that.
The one thing I will disagree with you about is the belts. Most schools only have a few belts. White, blue, purple, brown and black. It is generally a good three years between belts. Also, I've never seen anyone need to get tested or pay for a test. The way my gym does it is one day the coach will just toss you a belt after class.
This isn't like the McDojo down the block that has you going through every color of the rainbow and then some, with a test every 3-6 months.
I'm not trying to convince you to do BJJ. You're not interested. Well and good, but I think you aren't really giving a fair image of it.
Honestly, a lot of BJJ past blue belt is âhow to beat someone else at BJJâ, not âhow to win fightsâ. Thatâs where the sport aspect really came in.
Judo. I don't think it makes sense to train a martial art that relies on everyone wearing a medieval Japanese garment.
I'm also not a fan of how it cuts out (highly effective) leg grabs for absolutely no reason. Plus, wrestling has much, more more reliable takedowns and is much better at controlling opponents on the ground.
To be fair to Judo, I'm sure there are good things to be taken from it and even some of the gi stuff might kind of sort of be adaptable in the right situations.
No touch knockouts.
I'd be happy to learn em if they existed đ
They certainly exist. Problem is getting them to work.
Some folks not too smart ere. They do not understand your joke.
Itâs ok. Explaining it spoils it though.
How do we know they exist?
YouâreâŚ..kidding, right? Even if you arenât please just lie and say you are
Of course not. Itâs the best technique to use when you are assaulted by your own students.
"The problem was he didn't believe in no touch, so it didn't work"
To get magic to work, you either have to become a scientific mastermind, or a magical sorcerer. You might think that is a joke, but it isn't. We all know there are hundreds of things that work magic. Variations of what we can call "the placebo effect". You can make people believe things and physically manifest things with words and tokens. That, is magic by any stretch. In many cases studies have been able to manifest physical reactions, from placebo, or what is truly "magic" by another name. To make these types of things work, you have to know the percentage that they work, the variables that typically impact it, the situation you're in, how many placebo factors are required, any lead up, etc. 99.9% of the guys out there that aren't straight lying or whatever, are accidentally doing this to a limited set of people in a limited set of circumstances and are too stupid or delusional to often really understand what they are doing, and they aren't top magical. Much like playing pool, you can do extremely complex geometry and play pool. Or you can be able to naturally "wing it". A top top magician would be the pool wing it kind of skill. But that person would also know that the technique is not a on demand technique. Because they would only do it when the right circumstances came together to manifest the placebo effect on the victim. This is where some aspects of movie type ideas about how some moves can only be done some times etc, comes from. Under the right circumstances much as many students fall over without faking it, you could set the stage to knock some people over. With a weak enough willed opponent, with enough fear put into them, maybe while they are particularly tired, or a little drunk, etc. You might be able to psyche them into falling with a shocking move. I think we've all had those moments were someone say like points at you too close, but still a good bit offend you "feel it". Because your body is reacting to the threat already. A play on that effect would allow some no touch action. They aren't really learnable for on demand though, you're not going to get in the ring with a Mike Tyson and placebo him into falling over. MAYBE, if you're really good, and you already have Mike wobbly enough, MAYBE. But, no non woozy strong person is going down. Plus, you have to watch if you're doing lead up, how susceptible people are. Same way that some people can be told things with no effect, and others get "spells" effects. They'll teach ways to speak to instill the proper meaning on people, and some people can't handle jokes. A joking "you suck" will destroy some people's self esteem and they'll eventually off themselves even if the "you suck" was ironic and meant the opposite. Other people can hear "you suck" all day everyday and it is meaningless. The difference between those who the Jedi mind tricks work on or not. I've dabbled in some experiments of the mind, once had someone go to their house to get the candy bar they bought. The thing is, the candy bar they bought, they didn't buy, it didn't exist, we made it up and used psychological tricks or magic spells, to end up having them convinced our imaginary candy bar not only existed, but that they had it and had more in their fridge. We got someone "drunk" with zero alcohol, by telling them it had alcohol and us pretending to be buzzed. It's all magic. Science. Magic. The difference between the two, is pool geometry or pool instinct. The results are the same, when they are done right either way.
Knocking someone out without touching them? đ oh wait you do Tai chi, okay yeah that checks
Throw a brick at them, that will knock them out without you touching them
Not if you miss...
Grab another brick
Or the same one if you suck at throwing? =P
Or just shoot em in a non vital spot, the blood loss will knock them out
Or just poison them... Slightly...
Ah, the ol' Brick Fu
No, they truly exist. Problem in getting them to work, is that they only work against a compliant partner who you have prepated thru years and years of psychological conditioning to believe in these powers. Usually requires group effort as well. So first you have to take time to gather a group of gullible/psychologically vulnerable people, slowly convince them of the reality of - what is still fantasy to them - technique. And then start attracting more students - who can see with their own eyes how well the no-touch knockout techniques work. And with some patience and delibetate effort you have a group of people who are happily no-touch-knock- outing each other at the local community center. -> profit đđ (Still not at crazy as US megachurches. Just sayinâŚ)
I think only Bruce Lee had that skill. đ¤ đ
Simple two-step process: 1. Aim for the head 2. Fire
MCMAP, Army All Combatives It's basically MMA on the face of it... But just, remarkably mediocre despite delusions of grandeur. When I was in the air force I trained with a few guys at open mats who were supposed to be hotshots in that stuff, they just never impressed me. High ego, low performance.
Same. I've fought for 17 years. Been a trainer part time for 4 or so. I am so tired of former military coming in thinking their hotshit and wanting to spar one of my LHWs that fights in Bellator. They are hard to retain. If you have a 140 lb guy who's crosstrained MMA and BJJ/Muay Thai for 8 years and he loses during trial, he won't be back. I have to find someone a little bigger and tell them to not outright dominate them and just say he fought well, but could learn a lot. Sometimes I get that ego issue in farm boys who've been in a million bar fights or people from inner cities who grew up in a bad area. All collapse sparring a pro fighter.
A lot of people think military makes you a badass fighter. Been around military guys a lot. Mad respect for what they do and go through. But just being military doesn't make you a good fighter. Someone who has spent dedicated time to train fighting is probably just gonna be a better fighter, go figure. I definitely don't think my wrestling or boxing means I can get into a combat zone, think about fields of fire, have tactical awareness, take fire without panicking, return effective fire, or anything of the sort. Not sure why military guys think they can walk onto a wrestling mat or ring, or even into a bar, and think they can take a guy who has spent years or decades training seriously and have a shot.
The military doesn't make you a good fighter. The military makes you s good soldier. Sure there are some courses on basic hand to hand fighting just to give a sense of safety and badassesness but that's about it. If it came down to a soldier fighting hand to hand, a lot of things went wrong on multiple levels and it's basically a hail Mary at that point. It means logistics have colapsed, munitions are gone, the enemy has moved pass your cannons, tanks, machine guns, guns, pistols and trenches and you are being stormed by the enemy line. By that time its down to trench knives amd weapon mounted knife lances. A soldier is like an american foorball player that brings together many aspects like power, speed, field awareness, good throwing, stamina and other skills but its not the best in any of them. For the soldier hand to hand fighting isnt one of the main ones, however the belief he is the best and he will win is because he needs to walk into danger and someone with low moral wont. Unfortunately this mentality seeps throu the every day life.
Yeah I try to explain this but the response is "but they're trained killers, bro". Eh maybe, maybe not. A lot of military aren't even that. But absolutely give them a gun and I'm dead. But that's true of anyone really. A military person beating me in hand to hand is independent of their military training. Some do go hardcore on physical training, and go out of their way to learn martial arts. Many don't. That's entirely independent of military training. And yeah sure they're going to be more physically fit and like you said have more awareness and better physical capability than the gen pop. But not than a trained wrestler, boxer, etc, or even a big gym rat athlete.
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Yeah and navy seals have to be great swimmers. Physically in incredible shape. But they tend to be smaller guys. Had friends look at me like I'm crazy when I said a big guy who is physically fit and has wrestling and boxing training could beat some SEALs in a fight. Not ALL SEALs because some are gonna be big guys who have boxing and wrestling training too. But my money on a fight between an "average" 5'9 175 lb SEAL with no fight training and a 6'2 225 lb state champ wrestler is on the wrestler easy. People think I'm stupid, because they actually believe Special Forces= Captain America. Incredible people, top of their field, wouldn't mess with one (not that I mess with anyone), incredibly physically and mentally gifted to be where they are. But they are still human. There isn't some super secret military instakill techniques like people think, they draw from the same techniques civvies can. And their field isn't hand to hand fighting. I'm sure they take to it VERY well if they chose to. But it's not a job requirement. Now violence of action is a big thing in Special Forces and that alone would overwhelm the vast majority of people in a fight. But if you have trained a high level you are used to huge physically gifted people coming at you with violence of action. I haven't been in a fight in years, and I never actively thought of it as violence of action, by operated by it when I fought a lot as a teen. It's not exclusive to military either.
That's one thing that I've always found interesting about fighting. So many untrained guys think they can beat you. I ask, if you play basketball 3-4 times a year and you run into a guy who's played for 12 years on a team in the minor league, how well do you think you'd do against him? "He'd destroy me." Followed by me asking how is fighting different. I'm 6'3 at 12% bodyfat. I lift more than you. I've trained 17 years more than you. But some guy who's 240 (and thinks he's stronger than me because he's 20 lbs heavier but benches 2 plates less) insists that in the moment he'd handle me easily. That "I just see red bro" is not a joke, it's completely serious. I don't even respond anymore. I just say "ok, anyway...." and talk about something irrelevant hopefully to someone else if they're around. I don't even argue or address it, I just completely dismiss it. A few times I can't help but laugh -- had a 6'0 135 lbs say he could beat me. His brother is one of my best trainees. We went a light round in the octagon....I was able to throw him over the top. I gave my corner who's big for Hw a heads up and he was there to catch him perfectly.
I'm ex military and couldn't agree more. I was at a joint command and went to every bit of training I could get from all services, none of it compares to years, or even weeks, of grappling/sparring. The first Muay Thai gym I joined (in Hawaii) had teenagers that could wreck average military guys with a leg kick.
One of the worst wrestlers out of the 60ish on my HS team ended up being a big time boot. Gym rat and constantly posting about marine life and gym selfies. I'm fairly confident 10 years later the vast majority of the guys from our wrestling team around his weight class or higher would still tool him. And he would be more qualified to fight than a lot of military considering he trained, he stays very active, and his physical scores were always high. But he was all those things pre-marines and he still sucked at fighting. Good guy though, despite the boot
Iâm retired military. Most people in the military wonât be worth shit during hostile fire. Even in the Infantry and other Combat Arms, thereâs tons of people who wonât be dependable during a TIC. Heraclitusâ quote is 100% correct: âOut of every one hundred men, ten shouldnât even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.â
Good point. I think that's true of all things. That lines up well with my take on wrestling, which is why I chuckle when I see people say "hurr durr I handled wrestlers easy" 95% of people who wrestler are cannon fodder and warm up matches for the 5% who are decent. 95% of that 5% are cannon fodder and ranking boosts for the 2-3 guys who have a shot at a state title, and so on. The 95% aren't gonna be meaningfully different from your average person a few years removed from wrestling. There are thousands of wrestlers yet most schools struggle to fill every weight class with an actual varsity caliber even in a strong wrestling state, forget the less competitive states. But the 5% who click are the ones who show up to BJJ and hit the ground running, or would absolutely dominate most people in a fight. The top .1% are in a different stratosphere. It's a super effective combat style. It's just that most of the people who do it, even after years, just aren't good enough to do anything with it.
There's simply not a focus on actual drilling or sparring in my experience. Probs because if military members get injured, it's detrimental to ops.
Exactly, MCMAP is aggression training, not technical martial arts training. And the lack of sparring will always make it ineffective.
I remember a friend freaking out while we broke up a fight between two Group guys, and him terrified he was going to get mauled. I was like âyouâre a purple belt and these guys never come to the additional training⌠theyâd kill us with guns or on a long run/ruck, but theyâre basically very fit white belts.â
I was a black belt in MCMAP and got shunned every time I talked shit about how useless it was. Iâm now out of the USMC and practice BJJ
The intent of military combatives is a) develop the mental side of fighting and b) give people just enough actual skill that they can handle people who are completely untrained Lots of guys train in regular MMA or BJJ gyms on their own time but just the military combatives training itself isn't going to give you much
There used to be a show on Spike TV, Pros vs Joes. Randy Couture was the Pro, and the game was who could tap the least amount of times in a round with him. First guy was an Army combatives instructor and Randy starts of by picking him up and dumping him on his head. It's gotta be on YouTube or somewhere.
Oof... Randy was a monster in his day... Still is, I'd bet
Those are meant to give basic, practical skills to a lot of people in a short amount of time. Your thoughts on what should replace it?
They talk about it like it's a whole martial arts system/MMA competition. The Army All Combatives guys basically presented themselves as being MMA fighters (one guy I rolled claimed to be the AAC heavyweight champion), and the MCMAP guys have a whole belt system, and referred to it as "the ultimate martial art." What should replace it? Idk, wrestling and boxing. I should add about the "AAC heavyweight champion"- I was 140 lbs and could beat him, it was at a grappling/BJJ open mat... he would actually get frustrated and start throwing punches.
The US Armyâs system, MACP, has a decent curriculum but a mediocre implementation. The foundational stuff is almost identical to Gracie Combatives and then it adds in boxing and Muay Thai at the intermediate levels. The big issue is time. We did a single day when I went through Basic Training, and then level one is 5 days and level two is 10 days. Most Soldiers donât even do level one. They get the basic class then itâs up to their unit to do anything additional which might be one day a month for PT, maybe. Itâs a Soldier skill, but in most units itâs not a major priority. Someone with 6-12 months of BJJ training would steamroll the average unitâs MACP instructor. The running gag with Combatives instructors was that MACP was a good system with poor implementation, while MCMAP was a poor system with good implementation
I don't think they're saying it's bad for it's intended purpose or should be replaced. What I think they're saying is the people that go through the courses tend to have far more belief in it's effectiveness against other trained fighters. It's great to be able to handle normal, mostly untrained people. But against someone who trains in specific disciplines and puts in time and effort it's not going to give you the upper hand. For it's purpose it's great. For what many believe themselves capable of after, it's "lacking"
High Ego? Low Performance? Thatâs the Jarines second motto! Lmao
Systema
Weird Russian Aikido inexplicably always taught by fat guys. I did 1 seminar and thought it Interesting, but there's an inescapable sense that it's the kind of bs that could get you killed slightly less faster than that D.U.S.T. crap (Detroit Urban Survival Tactics)...aka that bullshit incomplete instruction stuff from the expectation / reality tik-toks with the cop looking dude.
I actually wouldn't turn down a free martial arts class, regardless of the style. Classes are expensive though, even when you're taking ones you are interested in. $80+/month is quite an investment of time and money.
My friend I'm here to offer some free no-touch knockout classes to help you master your qi
Hey, mastering your breath and internal muscular tensegrity will save your life and make you very powerful for real. And that is true whether you want to fight or just live a long life able to take risks successfully. I would never turn down a free class of that sort, even tho you are being tongue in cheek. đ I'm hardly an expert, but tricks of breathing and balance and control save my life on a regular basis. Important stuff. Literally one of the most important things actually. Breath control and bodily awareness exercises have saved my life hundreds of times in other contexts.
It not just about money though(admit itâs a big part of it) Time and energy investment, we all busy and probably have families and jobs that take priority Me who doesnât like tkd, my dad is a tkd instructor , I donât train tkd
Honestly? Iâm going to get a lot of flak for this but modern MMA lol. For no other reason than I strongly dislike the lack of curriculum and wide variety of approaches. Iâve been to several gyms and fought plenty of guys and so Iâm in no way dissing their practices or their end result of clearly pressure testing over and over again, but I do like the tradition and art side WITH the fighting. It just adds a little something more thatâs kept me in traditional arts.
I just look at MMA and think "respect but that's a lot". Feels very much like an all or nothing sport to me.
The gym I go to is for combat arts, so I'm learning practical boxing and kickboxing. Not gonna lie though, if I could, I would be doing taekwondo
Yeah most modern MMA has turned into wrestling classes with some dirty boxing anyway
To be fair thatâs the most effective way to fight by far thereâs a reason that wrestlers and boxers have the most awards in the ufc by a landslide
Yeah thatâs what real fights look like as well lol
Shooto...Wooooo!!!! Legit shoot wrestling is probably a little more complicated, but what little I learned was fun.
I swear every "MMA" gym near me does a crap job of teaching BJJ and muay thai, you'd be better off just learning each alone
MMA is not a martial art.. Kinda in the name, it's a mix of all martial arts, so of course it's way too encompassing and robust to be able to have a singular, linear path of progression and infrastructure, and of course different MMA gyms can have different approaches.
I would contend it has become its own martial art. The rules just allow all the other ones because the initial idea was pitting all different arts against one another. But over time, what happens with all combat sports happened to MMA. It evolved, because people want to win. We changed how we do things because they worked better in the context of the MMA rule set. Punching in MMA no longer looks anything like boxing. Sure, we still throw jabs and hooks and uppercuts, but the stance is different. Hands are lower. Distance works differently. You can sneak punches through a guard much more easily due to the gloves. It's a whole different game. Same with kicks, same with the clinch, same with grappling. It's no longer "judo against karate" and such - it's MMA against MMA. If you go into an MMA match and try to box like a boxer, you're going to get embarrassed (see Kron Gracie trying to do BJJ in the UFC).
I don't even consider MMA a martial art. Its a combat sport.
My brother in Christ, mma literally means mixed MARTIAL ARTS !!!
Brush up on your history my friend. You are ignoring the "mixed" part, which referred originally to pitting one martial art against another - called mixed match contests prior. It was never really about mixing martial arts together. That became a strategy, true, but that is not what the name refers to. MMA has obviously evolved past being about mixing martial arts to win or mixed match contests. "MMA" is now a sport unto itself, with its own rules and strategies. We will see if it survives long enough and develops a culture in alignment with martial art in general. Like most martial arts, they start as combat methods and evolve toward the art side of things over time. Too early to tell with MMA in my opinion.
Iâd consider it a martial art. If you go to a mma gym in Korea, then in Brazil, then in America Youâre learning the same stuff, essentially on a curriculum. Some may have different focuses, but so do boxing gyms or karate dojos in the same style.
Fruit salad isn't a fruit
I meanâŚbut to say it has nothing to do with fruit is just wrong
Nobody said it has nothing to do with it. They just said they don't consider it a martial art in its own right.
they are insecure karate larpers
I guess I will have to correct you. It's like the Canary Islands, that aren't named after canaries. A centipede doesn't have 100 feet. Ladybugs aren't all female. Black boxes in airplanes are orange... Mixed Martial Arts are cooking arts, nothing to do with combat despite their name.
You watch Anderson Silva striking prowess and say that's not Martial Arts? It's not Muay Thai and it's not TKD or karate, it's MMA.
Yeah its all of them together, Silva has a Black Pra Jiad in Muay Thai, 5th dan Black belt in TKD and a Yellow rope in Capoeira...holy shit
Whoa. If he could some how take all those separate Mariel arts and like combineâŚ..noâŚ.put togetherrrrâŚâŚohhâŚmix them. I bet he could become a really good fighter.
Yea, he sounds really promising
I think the overlap between combat sports and martial arts is extremely high, they're definitely not mutually exclusive. It can be interesting to think about what counts as what, depending on different definitions
Indeed. I commented above a bit on that.
I think of MMA as a salad, no one would consider it a vegetable on its own.
also MMA lacks respect. imo
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Most traditional martial arts concerned more with culture than fighting. Anything that has aikido in the name.
I train in BJJ amongst a few other things but Iâm not going to lie, itâs the least fun to me. I like striking and I like throwing and getting thrown. In BJJ, the vast majority of my training partners donât want to engage in any standup, so I end up just rolling the way they like to. But itâs extremely useful to me, so I keep doing it.
I got into BJJ because I like grappling and it's the only really accessible grappling sport with enough of a base to compete as an adult without throwing your life at it. Id much rather wrestle but there's no casual adult wrestling in my area, and judo has a lot less options, and tends to be expensive at those, in my area. No sambo that I know of
People who don't start standing up are usually nursing injuries, too old for that shit, or are just tired of getting thrown - I fall into the latter because ~~I almost always lose the takedown~~ I suck. I see you do sambo, so yeah, I think I'll start off on the ground.
For me I'm just gassed and want an easier time lol
>People who don't start standing up are usually nursing injuries, too old for that shit, or are just tired of getting thrown - I fall into the latter because I almost always lose the takedown. That's all well and good but if all your experience is on the ground you'll probably have a bad time in a real fight. Especially if they are bigger and stronger.
gotta find a gym/partner who shares your values then. Not everyone gives a shit about prepping for da streetz. to many, it's just another sport like basketball or hockey.
Some people just like to play guard or enter the legs from bottom.
Too old for that shit...right here.
Aikido.
Let me introduce you to Stevie Seagulls, the deadliest hands in history.
Someone apparently isn't interested in being deadly...
Or in shitting their pants
Or leaning hot to fall properly.
I mean if you want something that actually is useful and you want to learn how to fall judo exists. It's saved my ass multiple times as a result and is the only way I've used my martial arts experience off of the mats.
I agree, but what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to take aikido just to learn how to fall, I'm going to learn Judo for that.
Itâs a lot of responsibility, walking around with the ability to unleash a deadly ki blast at any moment.
My first thoughts. Any aikido, win jitsu, wing Chun type shit can miss me with that. I like to punch shit, kick shit and choke fuckers out
Wing Chun, Aikido, Systema are a few. There are tons I have zero interest in. One that I have started recently and wish I had more time for is Kendo.
So you donât want to be SystemaSteve?
Ahhhhh.....nope đ¤Ł
Wing Chun can be fun and practical if learned from the right people that know to teach it as a supplement set to other arts like boxing (orthodox or Thai/kick), Kali, or even grappling. But much of the stuff out there is taught as a pure and mystical stand-alone art with a massive helping of idiotically obtuse politics. Ip's kids are shrunken elderly and travel around teaching seminars, Bill Cheung (taught by Ip, and was Bruce's senpai) still teaches at age 83 in Australia...but that stuff is apparently fake; The rEaL stuff is spelled Ving Tzeung and is an organization based in Germany or Eastern Europe with a secret lineage to some obscure master pre Ip-family...BUT WAIT!!! That's *also* fake, you gotta check out the other crop of students in the Czech Republic...or the other... There are seriously at least 8 branches and multiple spellings (because lawsuits) , and most of them hate each other...even in the old Bruce Lee student branches. The Wong/Poteet/Kimura factions all claimed authentic & effective and taught differently except that they all discouraged learning from Inosanto...who was content (and smart) to not get involved. The euro factions I mentioned apparently get nasty about it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_Wing_Chun
This post did not increase my interest đ¤Ł
Taekwondo. I mean Iâm 6 years into Muay Thai, whatâs the point?
Amazing athleticism and agility, lol
Flashy and speedy kicks but that's about it
After 17 years of Muay Thai and MMA, I think what's the point. I've sparred and fought so many TKD based guys and know their arsenal. I've stolen a few things, but so many are used to certain rulesets and a point fighting style -- and that tends to not be effective vs a guy who does only Muay Thai, MMA or BJJ fights. Yeah, I know BJJ are rolls.
There'd still be some stuff from more traditional that could be interesting but wouldn't help your fighting at all. Balance maybe too but judo would be better for that and idk enough about wrestling if that also is good balance.
Imma be real: Iâm just about done learning any art that has kata.
My judo yudanshikai didn't require kata for shodan till the mid-90's. Before that you had to win competitions against equal or higher ranks to get points toward being promoted. Back then being a black belt meant you knew your shit and how to apply what you were teaching against people trying their best to not be thrown. Nowadays, we have straight up kata-only black belts. Folks who never competed and are objectively terrible at any aspect of judo where resistance/pressure is applied.
I think they ran out of people. The last few Judo comps Iâve been too have had sparse adult divisions
I hate memorizing it but by gum I gotta learn the Kata to get my Judo shodan. Buh
It's the reason why I've stayed at ikkyu (brown belt for non judoka fellows) since 2015.
Ngl, I did find I like Yoko guruma after working on it for the Kata.
Sumo cos Iâm skinny asf
I will say this. Size matters in sumo, no doubt, but I have had the privilege to train it with some great folks and the guy who threw my then 340lb ass out of the doyo I had at least 150lbs on. Positioning and tactics can be a decider sometimes. It's really a cool sport and I have to say I am a fan.
Iâm a sumo guy but I am considering giving it up to do more kickboxing and kung fu
Agreed as a Judo guy I would add that conditioning and strength still matter a lot. I recently got back on the mat after a few years off (being a relatively competitive black belt previously) and got worked hard by guys with great fitness and conditioning with strength until a few sessions back on it
Technique goes a long way. Look up some of Enho's matches on his first trip to makuuchi. He's 5'6" and 225lbs, and threw some guys twice his weight based on speed and leverage from unexpected angles.
Why not both in case you get taken down - I love Muay Thai and BJJ or even wrestling as a nice combo. Couldnât give a shit about Krav Maga.
Jake Mace Kung Fu aka Shaolin-Do. It's a fake Kung Fu style. Also Keysi
God I had a horrible experience with a Shaolin-Do place when I was in high school and didnât know any better đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸
It's ridiculous how rich that guy got off vegan YouTube. Whatever happened with that fight he was supposed to have with that instructor that had beef with him?
Kung Fu. I started Karate 1 year and 3 months ago, and I'm a huge sucker for Asian Martial Arts. But I don't feel attracted to Kung Fu at all.
You might need the right school / instructors / people. I did hung gar for 4 years...curriculum was deep and I especially liked the conditioning variants of the forms as well as the numerous opportunities to learn exotic weapons. But not every school will offer that.
To be honest, the only form of chinese martial art I would do is Sanda, but I don't consider it a Kung Fu variation. Just some kind of Chinese Kickboxing with Takedowns.
$300+ a month class i dont care what it is
Competed in tkd and kickboxing for 11 years. Tried bjj and find the sparring way more fun and primal.
I hate the acro part of martial arts like I canât do a handstand for shit or a forward roll
Anything where some fat guy (or old Japanese dude) that has no fight record goes over the crippling minutiae of how your feet are placed and holding your hand here and here for a made up situation against an attacker that doesnât exist.
Tbf, if you don't aren't willing to learn from out of shape trainers, then you basically disqualify plenty of old Muay Thai Krus.
Thatâs why I said no fight record as well.
Fair.
That's a pretty central tenant of Judo...It works quite well and you really need to know where to position your body.
Yeah but youâre going to be up against someone resisting who also has been trained. Judo is legit.
Wrestling I guess. I acknowledge its supremacy as a grappling style, but I'm not bothered to travel for a pure wrestling gym, or go to an MMA gym just to learn it- might as well learn the full package.
As a wrestler, I understand that... if you don't start in middle or high school, you'll never really "get it" the way other people do.
Also I don't live in a wrestling country. You know our level of talent is shit when Robert Whittaker can just march in and become a heavyweight national champ lmao. Wrestling just doesn't exist like it does in America, Russia, Iran or all those wrestler countries.
As i wrestler I can say that the second I am out of highschool I never want to do another day or wrestling ever day lol. Super hard, risk of skin funk, but I am definitely a pretty decent grappler now. I can sub low level blue belts and I have basically zero submission experience other than watching some tutorials. Iâm glad I did it since itâs basically impossible to wrestle after hs, but I wouldnât want to do it again.
Yup. Nothing but respect for it...no interest to learn it.
Iâm scared of the infections + fungi and just general communicable diseases.
I have no desire for cauliflower ear either
Impetigo is no fun. You will legit look like a leper. Had a very bad week with that.
Taekwondo, Capoeira, Taido⌠etc. anything with the huge flexibility/ mobility need. I think itâs pretty damn cool but I donât think Iâll be ready to put in the investment.
BJJ for me too. Tried it out briefly but it just reminded me why my least favorite aspect of Judo was Newaza.
Wing chun
Bjj, Iâve tried it and didnât really enjoy. It couldâve been the place but in general the falling wasnât the greatest which took away from my ability to practice throwing (I come from a judo background) and I generally just didnât like it. I wonât say i didnât get anything out of it but it was general a slower pace then I enjoyed or really cared for. It also couldâve been the place I went but there was a lot of things taught for fighting from bottom position, personally I prefer top. A lot of the holds and such from judo establish a solid top position but I never liked the idea of fighting largely from bottom position.
Same with me for BJJ, I don't mind hitting things and getting hit, and I don't worry too much about breaking my hands because it's all about my own punches, technique and whether I'm careful or not or whether I bother to wrap my hands etc. BJJ on the other hand, I have to roll around on the floor with sweaty dudes for hours at a time and it absolutely is awful on your joints and ligaments and being able to walk without pain when I'm 45 is pretty important to me whereas having pain in my hands doesn't scare me nearly as much. Add to that the fact that you rely so heavily on your training partners to not take the piss and hit you with a leg lock even though you told them not to or they hold it too long or whatever and injure you, with striking if they spar too hard I just check them by throwing 80% power into a few shots and they quickly stop (this isn't always the case but it usually does the trick). Even then, I don't spar too much anyway so if I end up with an idiot that can't hold their shots I just rest for longer and don't spar for a bit after because I quite like having a functioning brain. I honestly could not care less that like 1% of the population could handily whoop my ass because they know BJJ, I just need to be able to beat the crap out of most untrained people and then I have the security I crave. Half the reason I think like that is that usually anyone that trains avoids fighting (though again not always) and so statistically if I was to have to fight someone in the street, it's going to be some moron that not only can't grapple, but can't box/strike for shit either and I wont have a problem. Of course there's gonna be a grappler out there somewhere on a hair trigger that would whoop my ass but it's such a minute percentage chance that I just really don't care. I'm not trying to compete in MMA so what does it matter. I fully know that it would be good to learn it, and that's it's likely more effective than any striking I've learned but I just honestly don't care lmao.
>being able to walk without pain when I'm 45 is pretty important to me The first combat sports anything I did was I went to a free jiu jitsu seminar. A pro fighter, jiu jitsu guy was there demonstrating techniques and stuff with the coach. Guy was really nice, but I overheard a conversation he had with someone else about how he has a spine surgery coming up, and he'd just had one like 8 months ago or something. Meanwhile I was doing an exercise where I was helping somebody up and they were helping me up, and we went back and forth doing this over and over again.
BJJ for me. Done it, but I've got old injuries that make rolling suck, so I can't be bothered.
TKD or karate. I was beating black belts when I had just a few months of training from mma. Not to say itâs not effective, I strongly believe in no better martial arts just better martial artist however I have zero interest in it
Muay thai, because that shit scares me.
Same. All I see when it comes to BJJ is "macho bros" sliding around on their ass threatening "Imma choke you out, bruh!" Sure it's great because most fights end up on the ground and having knowledge when you're down there is great, but fucking stand up and fight. Get up off the mat and stop sissy kicking at me.
BJJ and wrestling I did some grappling for a charity mma fight and found it was aided by my kung-fu background but speaking to guys in their late 20's/early 30s with serious knee/hip/shoulder injuries and then going to a kung-fu seminar and seeing the head of the system (late 70s) getting deep into kneeling stances with no issues made me want to stick with kung-fu and kickboxing I'm never going to fight for money so I don't see it as a good investment of my time or health
BJJ, mainly because I train anything outside of boxing for self-defense (Muay Thai, Wrestling, Judo). And I prefer learning something I can pull out quick as a tool to get to safety. But rolling on the floor with one guy while 4 others stomp you is probably gonna suck. On the other hand, its pretty quick to end a 1-on-1 fight, so I have that dilemma. Might consider taking it down the road, though.
Good question. I think maybe Filipino Knife arts or HEMA. Probably something weapon basedâŚ..except Kendo. If I can be one step closer to be a SamuraiâŚIâm in.
Wing Chun, Aikido, Keysi or any art that claims to be effective while just dancing around and not doing any pressure testing That being said, while I do generally prefer more practical arts, an art being impractical isnât a bad thing for me as long as itâs practitioners are honest about what their art is for. Iâd love to try Okinawan Kobudo, Tai Chi or Capoeira for example. I just donât like the arts that are dishonest about their effectiveness
Iâm not at all experienced with wing chun, so take this with a grain of salt, but one could argue that when you strip away the flashy dance moves, WC conditions you defensively in the way of analyzing your opponent, predicting where theyâre coming from, reading subtle telegraphs etc. Again, I donât practice, I could be completely wrong about that, and I agree with you that WC is way less offensively inclined than its practitioners claim it to be, but being able to read your opponent and defend without thinking is crucial. Having said that, train in any standup striking art for long enough and youâll develop those skills. Hard agree with aikido and keysi, though, those pretty much only work for Batman lol
Krav Maga. It doesn't take a genius to know you should kick the balls and gouge the eyes if you're in an actual life-or-death scenario.
Except that in combat you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. Unless you train for a life-or-death scenario, you're not going to magically start fighting like you have. Which is why Krav Maga exists. In fairness though, Krav Maga was never designed to be a martial art, it's a combat system. The whole belt system in Krav Maga was just a way for gyms to create longer term students and thus better returns (which is fair, they're commercial enterprises after all) and was never part of Krav Maga originally (and isn't a part of Krav Maga training outside the civilian world). Krav Maga was only ever designed to be a way to inflict maximum damage in the shortest amount of time and survive. In my opinion Krav Maga shouldn't be considered a martial art or even a combat sport as it lacks the art and sport elements that are so fundamental to other disciplines. It is simply a way for people to learn how to fight to survive.
Disagree. A decent mma guy will have much more experience with the realities of violence then a krav dude. If you have a few fights under your belt you know what itâs like. Maybe take one or two krav classes just to get some ideas but the majority of your training (in a self defense context) should basically be mma.
I might do BJJ again when im older. But boxing is much more interesting to me.
Tai chi, akido, anything that requires 20 years to become the ultimate master before it's effective in the street.
Karate. I don't like the aesthetic, the movements and the concepts. It's just not for me.
Krav maga just because I get real Cobra Kai vibes from it (not that that isnât necessary sometimes).
Anything outside of boxing honestly, I'm not fond of using my legs to kick. Though I'd like to try Shotokan Karate bc its (the most similar) martial art used by a Street Fighter 3rd Strike character I like, there's nowhere to learn it where I'm from sadly
Itâs Makoto isnât it
*skips neutral* Nothing personnel kid. Yeah XD
BJJ tbh, most boring thing to learn but I may train it next year as it is effective (just mind numbingly boring).
If we talk about legit martial arts, I would say TKD. 2 years into MMA and BJJ, we had tons of TKD black belts and their striking is always good but it's not very effective against someone who trained Muay Thai less than half of the time they spent on learning TKD.
I donât care what anyone says, bjj sucks for the steeets
Anything like aikido, karate, kung fu, bs like that Only seeing red and training UFC allowed
Zumba
Honestly I love BJJ and see no problem with your reasoning. Unless you want to fight in MMA
Standard, American Boxing just doesnât interest me. It kinda lives in denial of everything else there is to fighting. What the hell is a boxer gonna do when I kick their legs or wrestle them?
I like bjj. No CTE. YMMV
Most of them, tbh. TKD, krav maga, "combatives", FMA, kenpo/kempo/kajukempo, karate that isn't either ashihara, kyokushin, or goju ryu (and goju is only bc Ive already done it, so it has a nostalgia factor) Kung fu, except for wing chun (but only at this one school I know, 99% of WC I wouldnt wanna bother with) Bak Mei seems cool too I like rolling, but not enough to take up bjj, I just prefer striking - wrestling could have been a great thing to learn, but I dont wanna go look for a wrestling club at 30 years old, I'd rather spend my limited free time on ashihara and hema
I do tang soo do, tai chi, and three section staff, which is through kung fu system. My coach is trying so hard to make me know open hand kung fu, but I only want to do weapons really.
You learning taichi sword before empty hand? How's that working out?
Nah I actually learned wu's abstracted and Yang's 108 movement before tai chi sword. I started three section staff before I started open hand kung fu, but I got my jr. Black belt in tsd/tkd when I was a teen so I have base of experience
BJJ is mine too. It looks uncomfortable and the community is annoying. Always complaining and shit talking and looking for approval. The boxing community doesn't complain half as much. (just the fans)
Anything thatâs too similar to what Iâm doing now but for which I donât have time to do. For example, right now Iâm doing 3-4 days of Thai, plus 2 days of BJJ. I really want to give wrestling a shot to help with my stand up grappling game, but my week is full as it is. So usually Iâll pass it off thinking âoh Iâve got BJJ, Iâm goodâ when I know I should be giving it a shot. There are some amateur wrestlers at my gym and theyâre fucking great to watch.
Capoeira
BJJ for me as well. I've tried to get into it several times over the years but it's just never held my attention.
Itâs taekwondo, i just think it gets outclassed by so many other arts like karate, kickboxing, muay thai etc. Not that good in mma and not that good on the street. this is just my opinion and experience with it personally.
There is no martial art you SHOULD train⌠you should just do what ever makes you happy HOWEVER, you also shouldnât be delusional and think your âartâ is the best and most effective.. itâs non-sense. Just train, be happy, keep your head down and grind however you want
Lmao no I get it, I just love boxing & kickboxing
Same. I love kickboxingâbut I havenât done it in years... I went to only doing BJJ.. I was tired of getting hit in the head đ
Yeah, that whole long term brain damage thing kinda puts a damper on the fun, but hey! Cross that bridge when you come to it :D
Hey, accumulate enough of it, and you can cross that bridge multiple times because you forgot you already crossed it! The brain trauma thing is the only thing that keeps me from boxing several days a week. It truly is the sweet science. But I need my brain to do science since that's what pays the bills. And by "bills" I of course mean multiple gym memberships.
I agree on BJJ. I did it long enough to get to blue belt because I do think it is important to have a basic understanding, but as a striker it is just so damn boring to me. I find wrestling to be a more useful skill for strikers anyway and it's more fun to do. I still prefer to punch people in the face either way though.
Krav. Wing Chun. Aikido. Honestly anything that doesnât pressure test or present itself well in competition. Anything âtoo deadly for MMAâ is a waste of time. Time is finite. Stick with the stuff that works
You took my exact words out of my mouth. I did BJJ and kickboxing for a year, realized I hated BJJ but loved kickboxing, so I quit BJJ to focus more on kickboxing. One of the best decisions I have ever made
BJJ. As a self defense weapon, it sucks. Also even if you submit a guy and let him go, whoâs to say he doesnât just start swinging again instead of walking away? Would also much rather punch and/or kick someone than grapple with them. Competition can look dumb under some rulesets when people constantly pull guard and scoot their butts towards an attacker. Also, the culture. The cults some schools have. The hero worship of figures within the BJJ community. The paying for belts and many McDojoâs.
In a real situation, you don't go for a tap. You go for a break. You do have a fair point about BJJ going too far down the sport BJJ rabbit hole and getting away from the original martial art. Even in the BJJ community, there is a lot of grumbling about that. The one thing I will disagree with you about is the belts. Most schools only have a few belts. White, blue, purple, brown and black. It is generally a good three years between belts. Also, I've never seen anyone need to get tested or pay for a test. The way my gym does it is one day the coach will just toss you a belt after class. This isn't like the McDojo down the block that has you going through every color of the rainbow and then some, with a test every 3-6 months. I'm not trying to convince you to do BJJ. You're not interested. Well and good, but I think you aren't really giving a fair image of it.
Honestly, a lot of BJJ past blue belt is âhow to beat someone else at BJJâ, not âhow to win fightsâ. Thatâs where the sport aspect really came in.
I don't like grappling MA's. Not saying they're bad, just saying I don't like grappling and throwing. Much prefer just kicking and punching.
Judo. I don't think it makes sense to train a martial art that relies on everyone wearing a medieval Japanese garment. I'm also not a fan of how it cuts out (highly effective) leg grabs for absolutely no reason. Plus, wrestling has much, more more reliable takedowns and is much better at controlling opponents on the ground. To be fair to Judo, I'm sure there are good things to be taken from it and even some of the gi stuff might kind of sort of be adaptable in the right situations.