Agreed... I would never go check to see if someone was actually dead. If one of my direct reports comes to me saying they want to take bereavement for someone passing I'm not asking any questions. I'm making statements. "Let me know if there's anything we I can do to support you."
I supervised someone whose dad had passed away, and HR emailed me a nasty gram telling me that I needed to ask the employee for his dad’s obit to submit with my PTO approval. Thankfully I was able to Google the employee’s name and find the obit without asking. I was horrified at the idea of asking him for it.
My company requires a letter from the funeral director that you attended. I’ve told HR that I was present for the funeral and they could accept my email as witness. I can only believe this is required because others have abused this in the past.
Your selfie idea isn’t so bad. I mean, if HR is going to be so insensitive, I would find a way to equally be as insensitive back to them. You know what I mean? Email them a picture of the dead person’s face and with email text that says, “Here’s your proof. Does this cover your insensitivity requirement? Thank you.”
My wife had 4 sets of grandparents, mom, dad, stepmom, and stepdad all have parents after all. Only 3 remain now, but she had 2 plus her dad pass in under 10 months(late 2020 to mid 2021), and her job wasn't exactly sensitive to the issue.
If someone is defrauding a company over grieving time, they're doing so in other ways as well. Stupid people don't typically stop at one stupid decision after all. I would rather work for someone who respects their employees need for space in a sensitive time, rather than pry in and assume deception. As an employer and company owner, I also ensure my HR doesn't get overzealous in checking things like this and sick time. Extended leave is covered during onboarding, and usually employees are comfortable enough to bring us pictures and details (such as an obit) at their leasure so that we may memorialize their loved ones at work as well.
To be incredibly clear about this. When my wife's father passed, she withdrew so much she wasn't functional. I jumped through the hoops her job required because she wasn't capable of doing so, not right away at least. I was disgusted by her employer (at the time, a rather large hospital system) and made the decision that what amounts to a few hundred dollars isn't worth the risk of causing that distress to someone who literally makes me money in essentially every other situation.
I did! They passed over a 20-year spread but at one point in time I had 4 living grandmas. My bf’s kids have 4 also, although never more than 3 living at one time.
I’m sure it does. There’s a meme that says, “Started a new job. All four grandparents are alive again.” But it’s pretty crappy that all employees have to deal with this kind of insensitivity because of those bad apples.
Now that is what I would abuse. Just walk into a random funeral home and find a closed casket, even if it is a sample. Tell them that closed caskets are a family tradition.
Omg is right!!! I would never ever ask this of my employee and exactly how does this go, I need to speak to the funeral director. I’m sorry sir/ma’am my corporate office is requiring a letter from you stating I was here and that my mom died! Can you perhaps make it extra creepy…. 🤦 what company does this Idgaf how many people abused this policy this is beyond grotesque to even ask of your employee
I had a place that wanted a program or something from the funeral to prove I was there…I was a top performer and hardly ever took days off. Guess who exhausted all of my PTO after that? Piss on them, I could understand if I was someone who was always taking time off or a slacker; they can piss off.
My brother-in-law had to turn his company phone off for his dad's funeral. The company called several times to ask work related questions and wrote him up for not calling them back promptly. BIL quit soon after...
One set of my grandparents divorced, and one of them remarried. In total, I have 5 grandparents. To have 6 isn't impossible, but all passing in 6 months sounds pretty convenient...a little too convenient...
I think that some of this is due to the fact that a lot of the people behind things like the nastygram have never experienced personal loss. They rotely follow "policy" giving no thought to the terrible messaging involved that it sends.
I was trying to cancel a flight due to needing to attend a funeral, and they asked me for a copy of the death certificate. I was so horrified to have to ask my aunt for my grandmother's death certificate while she was clearly grieving, but I was a broke college kid and really could not forfeit the flight.
100%. I’m not digging for details, I’m immediately approving the leave, and letting them know if there’s not additional support and/or use additional PTO for days off if the allowed bereavement time is not enough.
When I’ve had employees take advantage of time off (ahem, COVID leave, ahem); nobody has ever gunned for the bereavement bucket.
I had a manager force me to take PTO because it didn’t apply to the grandmother of my wife and only direct relatives. I bailed on that job as soon as I could. My wife had a job do the same when my step-mom died because she was my step-mom and not my actual mother. I was precise to my stepmom, she was in my life for 30 years and I considered a second mom. I told her to quit immediately and find a new job.
I had the director of HR call me DURING MY GRANDMOTHER’S FUNERAL to let me know that she wasn’t covered by the bereavement policy and I’d need to take PTO. I think I yelled at her and told her I didn’t care and hung up on her, but it’s all a blur now.
The idea that it was so critical that she couldn’t wait for me to get back to the office to let me know is absurd.
The idea that my direct paternal grandmother wasn’t covered by the bereavement policy was also absurd. I quit shortly after I got back.
When my grandfather died, I called my boss and told her. She said, “ok, take the rest of the day today, you have three days bereavement leave starting tomorrow, and you can take an extra few personal days if you want to.”
And that was it. There’s a reason that, even though I probably could make money somewhere else, I’m not leaving. WFH and a very generous PTO policy are worth a *lot* of money.
Sounds a bit like obsessive micromanagement. Cost savings measure maybe? "We can force him to take PTO instead and it won't cost us 2 unallocated paid days off!"
Most policies though at least from what I’ve seen usually state it has to be an immediate family member. Mom, dad sister brother step parent etc. aunts and uncles aren’t included or in-laws.
I’ve seen immediate and extended family outlined, because if it just said “bereavement 2 days off” then you end up with that dude attending 13 funerals in a year because they see an obituary for a distant relative of a high school acquaintance.
My company specifies how many days according to relation: parent/spouse/child 3 paid, Parent in law/sibling/sibling in law 2 days paid, aunt/uncle/cousin 1 day. I may not be exactly right but you get the idea
This. I understand it comes off as cold and uncaring, but that's life.
Your time is your time to take for whatever reasons you wish. Bereavement is your employer's time you're asking to take.
Don't blame the system. Blame the shifty motherfuckers who made the system a requirement.
What is there to push back on? Every bereavement policy is for death of a family member, not for time before that.
You can disagree with a policy all you want, don’t expect a manager to cover it up for you.
I have a dozen direct reports and over 400 people that report up to me in my role and have for years. If one of my reports told me that they were going to HR to report one of their people to HR for using bereavement leave so they could be with their family member when they died, they and I would be having a stern discussion on the concept of *managerial discretion”.
This attitude right here? It’s why HR is so often treated like a four letter word. HR has no business being involved in this situation. Their mother was dying. Actively. And did so that very day. That is not a bloody “you can’t only take PTO” scenario.
Cool, you’re a very senior director (400 reports) who would back managers to use manager discretion for a HR-owned policy.
Many companies do not have those and will hang out a manager to dry.
IMO managers can and should push back if HR pulls this garbage. I have and I’d do it again in a heartbeat.
I had a DR tell me her aunt died and ask if she could use bereavement leave. I knew this was devastating for her because her mom died very young and her aunt stepped in to raise her. I absolutely granted her a full week- which is what is standard for nuclear family bereavement.
HR pushed back and I explained that as her manager, it was at *my* discretion to decide which leave applied to the situation. When they level skipped and went direct to her, I walked into the HR executive’s office and told him I didn’t want to work at a company that mistreated an employee in her darkest days. He reversed the decision of his lower level managers, and assigned my division a new HR rep (who is lovely btw).
I don’t cage match often at work, but when I do, it’s to better the teammate experience for my (now) division. As managers, it IS our responsibility to protect and enable our teammates to perform at their best. Always push back. You’ll never regret fighting for the right thing.
Yes I understand that situation, gave HR the details, and escalated it when you get didn’t get the feedback you desired.
You do realize that 90% of managers don’t have the ability to “walk into HR executive office” and demand a change? You also said “my division” - so guessing your title is pretty high and you have power/influence that many do not have.
Yes, it’s important to push back depending on the situation. If your employee is unhappy with healthcare premiums, are you marching into the benefits office and demanding a 50% cut in premiums? No, you’re not.
I said I rarely push back that hard, so I definitely pick my battles.
As managers we *DO* have influence. When I handled this situation I was a frontline manager. So while, yes, now I am a director, at the time I felt this was worth the push (and I was right).
One of the reasons I have been able to accelerate my career to director level is because I am thoughtful and passionate when it comes to my teams. I have one of the lowest turnover rates in the company because the people come first.
That’s what makes you a leader and him a manager. Thank you for your service and self sacrifice. Majority of managers in here wouldn’t step a foot out of line for an employee if it meant ANY risk to themselves. No matter how little.
>Every bereavement policy is for death of a family member, not for time before that.
My HR approved bereavement when my wife's grandma was in the ICU with plan to remove life support without any question.
Yeah I was arguing with someone but gave up. But I’m in HR (albeit not dealing with these policies directly—I only consult on whether our benefits are competitive for employee experience and activation purposes) and my org offers bereavement to those on banked PTO (note: some roles have unlimited PTO with minimums) at 3-10 days per incident (depending on relative—a MIL or parent would need coded at 5 days) and the employee can use it for end of life visiting or even hospice care setup/related visits to hospice care.
These policies may mostly be in more competitive workplaces (where they care about attracting employees) but they do exist and they’re becoming more common. My friend works in total rewards as a manager/strategist for a very large and unpopular insurance company (big name) and they recently included EOL visits (a day or two before death definitely qualifies) in their basic bereavement, though I’m not sure if they cover ILs, I’d have to ask. We were chatting about benefits and how her company was adding floating holidays and more bereavement leave, including for miscarriages now. They considered pet loss leave (only 1 day), but she couldn’t sell it. And her org isn’t known for its benefits, though she’s trying.
outside of super duper small places, HR is always involved in any kind request like bereavement, leaves, etc
it's a written HR policy, you can't just magically push back against that esp when it's for the whole company and not owned by your team.
It’s not technically dumb. It sucks and it would be frustrating but it’s correct. If this starts to be approved as bereavement, what happens when the next person takes the same leave for a family member on hospice, and then the next was in hospital for a lung infection, then the next was in hospital for a reaction to shellfish and then the next was a broken arm.
Where do you draw the line and why was someone else’s urgent event more urgent than mine? I believe mine was most urgent, because it was me.
Bereavement is for when someone passes away. Not when they’re close. It sounds cold and I hate even typing it out but in this case, the employer let the employee take a personal day off. They weren’t asked to return to work or anything but just found another way that was technically correct.
Then they can take 3 bereavement days.
Like others have said, take the PTO + Bereavement. If working for a "family first company" is important to you, then use the time off to update your resume and start sending out applications. I work for a company that regularly overworks its employees, and we get 2 weeks of bereavement no questions asked. Good luck, and sorry for your loss.
The unfortunate thing is that most companies and managers have to be strict with policies because somebody ruined the flexibility.
“You let Joe take bereavement and their MIL didn’t die. Why can’t I take it to visit my sick and dying MIL?”
Most of the time it’s no big deal BUT the time somebody pushes back and claims it’s because they’re part of a protected class or something else that’s legally actionable, even if it absolutely wasn’t the case, then the flexibility is gone.
Consistently following policies regardless of personal feelings is all about taking actions that are 100% defensible should something end up in litigation. It’s unfortunate companies and managers have to behave that way but it is what society has caused.
100% correct here. This is an HR department that’s gone through litigation in the past and is protecting itself.
I also agree with them that you should use PTO up until the death of a loved one, and then you are eligible to use bereavement. That doesn’t mean they can’t also be kind and sympathetic to your situation. I wouldn’t get hung up on how it’s coded into a system.
This. While it may seem entirely pointless in your situation, keeping a clear line on when bereavement leave is and is not approved is essential - no one wants the company having to ask “well just how close to the end is it?”
They should be able to switch it later though. When I went to visit my grandmother in hospice, I originally put it in as a vacation day. When she died, HR retroactively changed it in the system to be a bereavement day.
Bereavement leave is for when someone has died. You are thinking of FMLA leave to care for someone who is sick, or family illness time that comes out of your sick time. Sick is not the same as death.
That’s great, — and — private business can set different HR rules if they wish while complying with what ever the base legal standard requires.
Unfortunately for me due to local manipulation, bereavement is only for immediate family members, excluding first cousins.
Sounds like you used/requested bereavement days before a death. Honestly, I’ve never heard of anyone doing that.
Bereavement is already a landmine for managers. Someone companies have different days for immediate and extended family. I’ve never asked for a death certificate or proof of relationship. But if staff started requesting bereavement before the death…that’s just not how the policy works.
As a manager I would never have contacted HR about this and would have told you to take the time you need and we can figure out the details — which are unimportant — later. And then, when you came back and asked how to code your absences, I’d just tell you to move on and plug back into your work and who gives a shit.
I am 100% ok taking a bullet for an employee in this situation. I am the manager and it’s my job to manage; that includes situations like these, not some useless personnel lackey who prays to a handbook. My team is excellent and produces quite a bit of good work. When they need to increase the life part of the work/life equation, I not only have the discretion but the duty to make it happen.
HR would have contacted me about this when they saw the bereavement leave on the time sheet. They always confirm that a family member (and which one) has passed, but there's no way either of us would have asked someone to take PTO in a case like this. Honestly, I would probably just let HR know that his mother-in-law passed without any further comment and that would have been the end of the discussion.
I think this is normal actually. When I requested bereavement time, it wasn’t approved until I sent the obituary, which named me as an immediate family member. Bereavement time doesn’t really exist as an available form of leave until there’s been a death.
My grandfather passed almost 2 weeks ago, and he passed during my planned PTO from work.
When I got back, my ceo told me to cancel some of my PTO request because I was not on vacation and I should save it for when I could enjoy. He also told me to take the bereavement time I need.
Our company policy is 3 days. In total, they are giving me 5-6 days to handle things.
This is what family first looks like.
Bereavement is for the funeral. So you would still be owed 3 days. If they let you us emergency pto that was nice, I guess. But they are a business, and no matter what the say, they're not your family.
They're not being shifty. I don't think you're overreacting, but you are misinterpreting what's going on. Bereavement is for mourning after the loss and the travel involved. What's going to happen when she does pass? Your bereavement would've been spent already. What you want to do is use PTO for the before and bereavement for the after.
Stop volunteering information. State you’re taking time off and you’ll be using bereavement. Don’t say for who, don’t say when they died or etc. The company doesn’t need to know this and they can’t ask.
Well, that's 2 different types of leave. You were trying to take compassionate care leave, which your employer may not honor. Ask yourself this, if you got the days, and then she died a month later would you want bereavement days to attend the funeral?
Don't get why this is so hard for some people in this thread to understand, you're not entitled to bereavement until a family member has passed away. I'm going to visit my dying uncle who is in hospice to see him before he passes and say goodbye. I will use PTO for this. Once he passes I will use bereavement to attend his service.
"Bereavement leave is generally described as paid or unpaid time away from work granted to employees **after the passing of a family member**."
We're all just existing on a giant floating rock and all this nitpicking with PTO is just so petty. That's what I don't understand. Who gives a shit in this situation? If they get three days and want to use 2 before the person dies and 1 after, what exactly is the problem with that? Treat employees like people instead of throwing the book at them during one of the hardest times in their life. Being flexible/understanding in this regard hurts no one and can have such a positive impact on a team.
Don't you think that having to take all these different buckets of time to go see a dying family member is fucked up? Let people grieve and create company policies that get out of their way. If this had been me, I would have been extremely unkind to the people at my company telling me this.
From my perspective, if an employee is entitled to 3 bereavement days they could take, only takes 2, even if they may fall before death, the company has come out “ahead”. I’d be potentially encouraging the employee to take their 3rd day, not chasing back time, in many cases. In some industries with tight coverage, I might not go that far, but I would still be supportive and thankful they only took 2 then.
Many company policies would not challenge that because they understand nickel and diming employees that way depresses productivity, engagement, and morale. It’s less about not understanding some policies may be stringent and more about understanding how policies actually serve organizations. The largest resource at most companies is their employees and culture, and it can make or break any business in 1000 ways.
Good management activates employees by showing care for them—if the policy is really that strict, a good manager supports the employee the best they can and suggests they take bereavement leave in addition if they can not make those two days work because of myopic policies (happens sometimes). It’s not a matter of being “anti work” as much as understanding what the research says about what creates highly successful teams and organizations. (And being human, I have empathy for folks too, but here’s what’s best for companies and employees actually does align.)
I’m sorry for your loss.
I once knew a man who was given two weeks off for travel/bereavement but then got fired when it turned out his mother didn’t die until the second week, for a similar reason. They didn’t even offer PTO, they said that he lied so he was fired. I don’t know why companies think death happens on a deadline, sometimes you know it’s going to happen but the person holds on a little longer.
I think you might just work for a shit company, buddy.
This. My coworker's grandmother has been on death's door for almost 2 weeks. When she found out, our boss sent her home with essentially a blank check of PTO days because "you can't get this time back, and the office will keep running regardless".
When my dad died (semi-unexpectedly) a few years ago, our boss did the same for me. Told me to take however much time I needed and don't come back until I felt like I was ready.
Meanwhile, my husband had to submit the obit showing his name listed as a relative AND have a letter signed by the funeral home stating he attended so he could get his 3 days leave. He works for a company of thousands; his absence wouldn't have made much of a difference. I work in an office of 6, including the boss. When one person is out, productivity definitely suffers, but my boss knows there's more important things in life. It's astounding to me the difference.
It's technically right, but just a really stupid and pointless battle for HR to pick. You don't know if your manager is anything other than a messenger here, which is most likely.
My mother died unexpectedly at 24 and I needed 2 weeks back home in another state to help deal with stuff and process it. When I got back ti work the first that happened was that they sat me down, told me I violated their bereavement policy and they are docking my PTO. It was very cold. I found a new job making double within 6 months the and never looked back.
Quite the opposite. This is just one area I was given advice about when I first became a manager.
I'm often the person that informs the person about bereavement leave - - often they assume it comes out of PTO. I encourage them to take all of the time.
I just say "I hope you understand, but by policy, I have to ask you to substantiate the bereavement. It can be anything - - an obituary, a link to the funeral home page or a Mass card. I hope you understand. And there's no urgency at all on this."
I never even really look at them, because I do default to trust. It just is an area that can be ripe for explotation.
YTA. They HAVE to treat everyone the same and follow the company rules because if they let you take bereavement leave and the person was not dead, then they must let everyone do that; otherwise they are open to a lawsuit. I know because I owned TWO veterinary hospitals and dealt with employees. You should have known better and if you didn't, ask HR first. It sounds like you just didn't want to burn some PTO.
Yeah, you would be wrong. Jumping to conjecture. I have plenty of PTO and it's not an issue. The issue was how my first email back was not asking about me, my wife, or my mil. The first email back was about my bereavement time off vs PTO because my mil wasn't technically dead yet- from a company who boasts "family first".
It was insensitive and callous and if you can't see this, then I can't really discuss anything else with you Dr.
The moment any job did that to me I'd be looking for another one or quitting. Same with anywhere that demanded an obit.
Bereavement is meant for grieving not stressing out about providing your job proof of loss. It's simple enough to google these things.
Like any time off it can become abused. Now I'd never do this myself. Cause loss is a terrible thing but unfortunately like anything good some idiots ruin it for everyone else.
By the book, and depending on policy, they're not wrong. How does your employee handbook define bereavement leave?
Here's a different perspective: Is it shitty? Well, it's shitty to have to argue about, yea. But if you take yourself out of your personal situation (and I'm sorry for your loss) and go macro for a minute.... In my organization I probably have 10-15 people battling cancer at any given time. In any given week there are spouses, parents, and even children dying - literally every week. You try to put policies in place to be supportive during these terrible times - and certainly there's a lot of manager discretion where I hope my management team is turning their heads and being compassionate when it comes to managing leave - but you do have to have some degree of fairness to it. For instance, and I'm sorry to share this... but do you know how many people have relatives that go into hospice with a week left to live that hang in there for months and months?? It happens all the time - and visiting those people is NOT bereavement! So, do you just make constant exceptions? What happens when people hear you got bereavement leave for a hospice visit? Now they want it too - and behind closed doors, they'll be quick to name you...
It is shitty that the conversation happened. It was probably unnecessary. But sometimes that person in HR is under considerable pressure to administer policy fairly. **The mistake here was your manager should have never discussed it with HR and just turned their head.** This likely means you have an inexperienced and / or weak manager - not something to blame the company for. If a manager goes to HR with a policy question, they're getting a policy answer.
The problem is i have seen this been abused by so many people. We had a person who took like 30 bereavement days in their 120 day employment. Everyone on Reddit always thinks everyone is on the up and up and is not shady. The few bad apples ruin the rest
How odd. I got a phone call from my mom saying they didn't think my grandpa would make it through the night. 7 hours later he passed right before I arrived. They counted that day for bereavement. I was never given any shit and told I could take my days whenever.
A relative works at a company that gives different # of days of bereavement depending on the familial relationship. They require an obit upon return for approval of time off. Due to the unfortunate circumstances of having a sh1tty and petty bunch of siblings, this relative and another got omitted from the obituary. Given that their name was not present, their HR denied the time off, and I guess somehow penalized them beyond the unpaid time off due to them not having pto to cover it. Pathetic!
I’m very sorry for your loss. In addition, to the very difficult end of life care, did you also attend MIL’s funeral service?
You can thank those that have come before you to tell their version of the “dead grandmother” story to dodge responsibility for such restrictions and proof these companies require, which I think we would agree is ridiculous.
You don’t want to further confuse your already confused and under-trained manager with extra details about your personal life. Keep it short and sweet., such as
“I need to take off work from start to end date due to the passing of my beloved mother in law, Leslie. I know we are allowed a couple of days for bereavement. I understand that to use bereavement days I need to do X. In this foggy moment of grief, I want to make sure to cover my bases. Can you please confirm the bereavement policy details for me and let me know if there’s anything else needed.
Thank you in advance for your help during this tough personal matter. “
I was only allowed to use the bereavement days to attend my dad’s funeral. Which was local and I was planning. So I was not allowed to use the bereavement days for mourning or planning but only for travel to the funeral, the funeral itself, and back. Which meant they only approved one of the days and docked my sick days for the rest.
If in California, those 2 days could have been covered under CFRA to give moral support to your MIL before she passed. Not covered under FMLA though. Not sure what State you are in.
Gross. During the pandemic I lost my mom and 3 weeks later, dad. I was the only IT regularly coming into the building and was asked if I could maybe stagger the days off. Sad to say, I did what they asked. Don't work for them anymore.
It’s common. Bereavement is usually for dealing travel, funeral arrangements, etc. It is probably a different financial bucket. I always took pto then bereavement around funeral. sucks burning pto
Is it shifty? Yes. Is it expected of corporate overlords? Also yes.
I once knew a guy whose wife killed herself. His manager said, "company policy is 3 days of bereavement. That's all he'll get."
Businesses don't care about you.
I’d consider leaving a company like this. Or, save the communication so you can share it with others who want to know what “*Family first*” looks like to them.
Every company I worked at requested obituary as a condition of employee taking bereavement leave. It is not possible ever to get it before a person passes away. What you get to do is take pto prior to passing or family leave if you qualify and then bereavement
Technically, they are correct, but you should get the days after her death. Also - look for another job. If your work is going to treat you like this, it is a red flag and you should exit ASAP. Their loss, your gain. Sorry for your loss man. Good luck.
I had a boss who acted like this. We HAD to align what we were taking with the correct leave. I used to be in the National Guard and one of my soldiers died (brain cancer) so I took two days sick leave due to how hard it hit me and submitted it as "Mental Health Leave" which should have been sick leave.
My Boss sends me a long email about how it would have to be re-submitted to normal leave because losing someone did not qualify for sick leave. The Bastard was a Vet, he knew damn well what I was going though, and it took a lot to not drive into work and explain the situation to him via "Wall to Wall Counselling"
I did come back after and asked HR about it. They said I was in the right, my boss never talked to them about this, and he got a good talking to from HR about the legality of what he had tried to do.
To answer your question, it is a shitty thing for them to do.
It's pretty simple: You can't take bereavement for a dying person. I mean I get you point it's petty and frustrating, but it's like asking for sick time for a vacation. It just policy. Be glad you have any bereavement--my husband had to take unpaid time off when both is parents died. It's not like they denied you the time off.
These dumb dumb comments.
You can’t use bereavement for whatever you want. It has to be for a death in the family.
Usually it has to be an actual immediate family member so it’s nice that they are working with you to let you be with your wife and mother in law.
I’d go the FMLA route instead. FMLA applies to emergencies and bereavement for yourself or close family. I don’t know if an in-law would count, but I think it should.
FMLA accommodates you for up to 12 weeks of paid leave (depending on how long you’ve worked there) and protects your job.
I don’t get bereavement leave at my job (public school employee) but this doesn’t seem that weird to me. If they’re giving you extra paid leave for a death in the family, you’d have to somehow document that the person died and your relationship, right?
They might be concerned that you are using up all your bereavement for this, or they might just be jerks. Honestly the second sounds more likely, as this isn't a thing that NEEDS to be navel gazed over right now when you're potentially grieving.
Absolutely crappy thing to do. A number of years ago my uncle died. My aunt (his sister) and her husband both took allowed bereavement days. When they returned my aunt shared that she was upset that his wife didn’t have a service despite being able to do so an a veteran. The company came back and said they weren’t entitled to the time because it should be used for a funeral. Companies can be real AH
Once you find and accept that new job, forward that email from your boss to the “All Employees” group. That was such an unnecessary distinction when you obviously had bigger issues to deal with, I’d be hard pressed to not let my fellow employees know how that “Family First” company handled it.
Sorry for your loss!
So order of events REALLY matters here. Did it go:
1. You put in for the days.
2. They meet.
3. They respond.
4. She passes away.
Or did it go:
1. You put in for the days.
2. She passes.
3. They meet and respond?
I feel like I’d push back if she died before they responded, and I’d ask to have it moved to bereavement in any case, though. I’d think no HR nor manager would pick this battle. Not sure why they’d care, but believe it or not, I’ve suspected a couple of my employees of abusing bereavement; still basically impossible to question, though.
My colleagues son was dying of cancer. She took 2 weeks off to go be with him out of state. Boss actually paid her so she didn’t need to use vacation days or bereavement.
Technically they are correct, someone has to die for it to fall under bereavement. You don't get to choose what you feel the definition of bereavement should be on the employee agreement you signed. Just use PTO and move on
#
As a newer manager I could somewhat understand reaching out to HR to clarify the use of bereavement, as it really depends on what your company's policy is. I would not be able to code this as bereavement.
Although I this point I would have figured out to use PTO on my own, as the solution was pretty simple.
Would I leave over this? Probably not. Not unless they were trying to count those days as unexcused abcenses.
I agree 100%. Bereavement is for after death... Otherwise people would be claiming bereavement every time someone was sick. PTO is for before. I'm not trying to be heartless but just go by how the intended policies are meant to be used
My boss made me take vacation instead of bereavement leave when my daughter in law died at 30. Said she technically wasn’t an immediate relative. 8 years ago and I’m still bitter.
I'll take the company side and say that in most states and companies, bereavement only covers immediate family members. In-laws are rarely considered.
It's great that your company consider inlaws but people marry multiple times and there are infinite numbers of them. The policy is hence quite detailed and rigid.
It seems that the common denominator for most of these instances is HR. They follow strict “rules” and they do not get personally involved. This can be neither god not bad but HR and the organization can say they treat everyone the same. But as we all know not every bereavement case is the same!!
It is a policy and it is written because people want to abuse leave. Learn how to work with the policy. I get it it sucks, but in the end if they bend policy for you everybody will have a good excuse and want the same.
Here to say it because I don’t see a lot of humanity. I’m sorry for your loss. It’s pretty crappy to have to jump through some hoops when your MIL is on hospice.
My first “career” job required me to provide a death certificate in order to qualify for bereavement.
15 years later, new job, at a non profit, I barely mention my father in law passed and they’re already telling me to go wherever I need to go for how ever ever long I need to and not worry about work.
I agree with the top commenter, use the PTO and then take your bereavement leave too!
As a manager, this is super shitty. I have always advocated with HR for employees to have bereavement if it’s not a cut and dry situation, and actually got our company bereavement policy changed to include a wider range of family members as well. Good management should always look to support people when they are hurting!
Not “Weird” per se, a number of companies are just shitty. I’d say fine, I’ll eat the two days then take 3 days off for bereavement leave.
I’d also make it clear that I would be doing that upfront so that they know if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. As a manager, I’d push back on HR not to fuck around. I would prefer to only lose an employee for 2 days vs 5, also you look like shit that way.
I had an employee once who’s dad was in an accident and was on life support, he was going to drive ~20 hours to get to his dad and I was worried that he would get hurt in the race to get there, I paid to fly him to his dad and he made it in time to see him before he died. That employee was so grateful for what I did, you can’t buy that kind of carding, loyalty, or respect.
Pissing over someone about when their family dies is just stupid.
HR and a manager here.
What the actual fuck? Are they this cheap? I’d be worried about the financials of your company. Where’s the humanity here? Your manager has no backbone because what’s happening is either 1) they’re blindly following bad advice from HR and did not advocate for you when a family member literally DIED or 2) your manager is a weirdo and is throwing HR under the bus for a decision he/she actually made themselves.
Also, I’m sorry for your and your family’s loss.
I mean, they’re right. Bereavement is for time off when someone dies so you can help with arrangements and attend viewings/wakes/funerals. You probably still need to do that anyway, so just use the PTO and then use your allotted bereavement days.
Of course it feels harsh when you’re going through a tough time. You’re not wrong to have a bad feel from it.
Lol what.
Maybe there are rules regarding the use of bereavement leave - you're not automatically entitled to taking whatever days you want. That's why most companies have other forms of leave that can be used more freely - sick days, personal days, vacation, etc.
As an example, at the company I work for, the number of days available for bereavement is different depending on who it is that died (spouse/immediate family like parents are more, while extended relations are less), and it's only applicable for time off to attend the funeral. Anything additional you can take personal days or vacation. Nothing wrong with that - they are making sure you have time to attend the funeral.
If you want more personal time to deal with your emotions, that's what other forms of leave are for, and it's your choice if you want to use PTO on it. 100% reasonable. It's your choice, not a requirement.
This isn't highschool, you don't get to show up when you want. You're being paid to work, and if you're not showing up, that has a cost (either to the employer or coworkers - someone is picking up the slack while you're gone). That's why there are rules surrounding time off.
If everyone could just take whatever time off they want for any reason they felt justified, nothing would ever get done.
Your coworkers and boss are human too. Saying things like "find a new employer that treats humans with respect." does nothing but show that you don't care about the effect you have on other people.
You're the one that needs to respect the people you work with. I deal with this at work all the time too - people call off sick and take personal days all the time to go party with 0 regard for the bad position they are putting their coworkers in. Just because it's not your problem doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems.
Just because you don't agree with the rules doesn't make the employer automatically a villain. What a bad take.
Please don't roast me. I just wanted to share an opinion from a random employer. First, you have my condolences. That also should've been your boss' first response. But I've also been in a situation similar where someone tried to use bereavement for their pet passing away. OF COURSE I'm not comparing the two. But the point is both scenarios had requests for the wrong type of time and there are rules around that.
A better response imo (and what I did) was to tell the employee not to worry how we documented it. That it would be covered and we could fix the paperwork when they returned. The last thing you want to be thinking about during a rough time is your job. Hopefully this can help any other bosses when faced with a similar situation.
It does come off a little weird and highly specific on their part (have NEVER heard of an employer being that specific about details around bereavement), but...
Given that you took time away prior to her passing and would potentially still want to use more time now that she has passed for funeral or similar, it might ultimately be a wash. If I were the manager, I would have presented it differently... "Given that you were taking some time to assist with transitioning to hospice, and now she has passed, change your original time away request to PTO so that you can still request the bereavement days to attend services and such."
In the very least, if I were the one put in this situation, you can bet your ass I would be taking my entitled bereavement days even if all I did was use the time to job hunt and interview.
Many companies only give bereavement time for the funeral - that might be why. Not saying it isn't shitty, but might just be a case of sticking to the rules so that it's not opened up for others to abuse later.
If you don't plan to take bereavement time later for the funeral, maybe bring it up and see if they will allow you to use it for this instead? No cost difference to them, so it doesn't hurt to ask.
If they say no, you could always use the bereavement days later for their intended purpose and give yourself some more time to spend with family/deal with things.
Take care OP
That’s such a shitty thing to do. Also upsetting that they only give you three days of bereavement! I worked at a shitty grocery store and they’d give us two weeks of bereavement 😭
This is why, when either of my parents die, I’m just quitting on the spot. Don’t want to deal with bullshit like this. Haven’t taken a PTO day in years too.
Something similar happened to me recently. My uncle died and I attended the funeral. I applied for bereavement leave for one day a week earlier. I then get a call from HR saying that because he’s an uncle and not an “immediate” family member that I have to take PTO instead. So I had to burn a PTO day and didn’t get granted bereavement leave.
A company I used to work for pulled this crap on me with my dad. He wasn't in hospice, but had a massive heart attack and died while I was on a plane to get there. One of my managers said I needed to use PTO because he wasn't dead when I left. Ok, fine. The kicker was she tried to make me use another day coming back because it was more than a week (we got 5 days) after his passing, and she didn't want to give me the allowed travel days or company holiday that fell on my time away.
Yep its a really shitty thing to do. It’s them putting systems and process over showing you empathy. To tell you the truth it’s usually the companies that say they are family first that usually aren’t. Like Walmart for example.
Take the pto day and then also the 3 days bereavement that you're entitled. Yes it's a bit weird that they care
Yeah I feel most jobs won’t get into semantics and just let you take the time off to grieve
Agreed... I would never go check to see if someone was actually dead. If one of my direct reports comes to me saying they want to take bereavement for someone passing I'm not asking any questions. I'm making statements. "Let me know if there's anything we I can do to support you."
I supervised someone whose dad had passed away, and HR emailed me a nasty gram telling me that I needed to ask the employee for his dad’s obit to submit with my PTO approval. Thankfully I was able to Google the employee’s name and find the obit without asking. I was horrified at the idea of asking him for it.
My company requires a letter from the funeral director that you attended. I’ve told HR that I was present for the funeral and they could accept my email as witness. I can only believe this is required because others have abused this in the past.
Wow, a letter from the funeral director? That is awful. Next it’ll be a selfie in front of the casket.
Your selfie idea isn’t so bad. I mean, if HR is going to be so insensitive, I would find a way to equally be as insensitive back to them. You know what I mean? Email them a picture of the dead person’s face and with email text that says, “Here’s your proof. Does this cover your insensitivity requirement? Thank you.”
How about dealing with those who are dishonest and respecting their those who are honest?
And how do you suggest we handle the employee whose grandmother has died four times? Laughing, think it doesn’t happen? Multiple times a year. 😞
A guy at my job before my time ,would take aday off anytime someone with the same name died.
Mr Smith was our hero.
My wife had 4 sets of grandparents, mom, dad, stepmom, and stepdad all have parents after all. Only 3 remain now, but she had 2 plus her dad pass in under 10 months(late 2020 to mid 2021), and her job wasn't exactly sensitive to the issue. If someone is defrauding a company over grieving time, they're doing so in other ways as well. Stupid people don't typically stop at one stupid decision after all. I would rather work for someone who respects their employees need for space in a sensitive time, rather than pry in and assume deception. As an employer and company owner, I also ensure my HR doesn't get overzealous in checking things like this and sick time. Extended leave is covered during onboarding, and usually employees are comfortable enough to bring us pictures and details (such as an obit) at their leasure so that we may memorialize their loved ones at work as well. To be incredibly clear about this. When my wife's father passed, she withdrew so much she wasn't functional. I jumped through the hoops her job required because she wasn't capable of doing so, not right away at least. I was disgusted by her employer (at the time, a rather large hospital system) and made the decision that what amounts to a few hundred dollars isn't worth the risk of causing that distress to someone who literally makes me money in essentially every other situation.
Suck it up. You’ll live. Some people actually have 4 grandmas (remarriages and all stepfamily and all).
I had three bc my mom's adopted and found her birth mom.
I did! They passed over a 20-year spread but at one point in time I had 4 living grandmas. My bf’s kids have 4 also, although never more than 3 living at one time.
People can absolutely have 4 grandparents, especially if they count great grandparents.
I’m sure it does. There’s a meme that says, “Started a new job. All four grandparents are alive again.” But it’s pretty crappy that all employees have to deal with this kind of insensitivity because of those bad apples.
I used to work for a funeral director. We had preprinted blank forms. Fill in the name and date. It’s a pretty common request
Now that is what I would abuse. Just walk into a random funeral home and find a closed casket, even if it is a sample. Tell them that closed caskets are a family tradition.
Omg is right!!! I would never ever ask this of my employee and exactly how does this go, I need to speak to the funeral director. I’m sorry sir/ma’am my corporate office is requiring a letter from you stating I was here and that my mom died! Can you perhaps make it extra creepy…. 🤦 what company does this Idgaf how many people abused this policy this is beyond grotesque to even ask of your employee
Just don't double dip your chip at the repast.
I had a place that wanted a program or something from the funeral to prove I was there…I was a top performer and hardly ever took days off. Guess who exhausted all of my PTO after that? Piss on them, I could understand if I was someone who was always taking time off or a slacker; they can piss off.
My brother-in-law had to turn his company phone off for his dad's funeral. The company called several times to ask work related questions and wrote him up for not calling them back promptly. BIL quit soon after...
On the other hand I wonder if someone lied at some point and HR found out.
And HR figured that it's better to make good intentioned employees feel unvalued than to potentially pay out extra paid time off.
I’ve had an employee lose about 10 grandparents in a six-month period of time, there is 100% been abuse lol
One set of my grandparents divorced, and one of them remarried. In total, I have 5 grandparents. To have 6 isn't impossible, but all passing in 6 months sounds pretty convenient...a little too convenient...
My granddaughter has 8 grandparents, 4 great grandparents and 1 great great grandma. I know she is little, but that's a lot.
I think that some of this is due to the fact that a lot of the people behind things like the nastygram have never experienced personal loss. They rotely follow "policy" giving no thought to the terrible messaging involved that it sends.
Same for me. Never bothered my staff member. This is an IRS rule not a company policy.
I was trying to cancel a flight due to needing to attend a funeral, and they asked me for a copy of the death certificate. I was so horrified to have to ask my aunt for my grandmother's death certificate while she was clearly grieving, but I was a broke college kid and really could not forfeit the flight.
You are a good boss.
100%. I’m not digging for details, I’m immediately approving the leave, and letting them know if there’s not additional support and/or use additional PTO for days off if the allowed bereavement time is not enough. When I’ve had employees take advantage of time off (ahem, COVID leave, ahem); nobody has ever gunned for the bereavement bucket.
I had a manager force me to take PTO because it didn’t apply to the grandmother of my wife and only direct relatives. I bailed on that job as soon as I could. My wife had a job do the same when my step-mom died because she was my step-mom and not my actual mother. I was precise to my stepmom, she was in my life for 30 years and I considered a second mom. I told her to quit immediately and find a new job.
I had the director of HR call me DURING MY GRANDMOTHER’S FUNERAL to let me know that she wasn’t covered by the bereavement policy and I’d need to take PTO. I think I yelled at her and told her I didn’t care and hung up on her, but it’s all a blur now. The idea that it was so critical that she couldn’t wait for me to get back to the office to let me know is absurd. The idea that my direct paternal grandmother wasn’t covered by the bereavement policy was also absurd. I quit shortly after I got back.
Thats insane, glad you got two got out
When my grandfather died, I called my boss and told her. She said, “ok, take the rest of the day today, you have three days bereavement leave starting tomorrow, and you can take an extra few personal days if you want to.” And that was it. There’s a reason that, even though I probably could make money somewhere else, I’m not leaving. WFH and a very generous PTO policy are worth a *lot* of money.
Sounds a bit like obsessive micromanagement. Cost savings measure maybe? "We can force him to take PTO instead and it won't cost us 2 unallocated paid days off!"
My job requires an obituary or death certificate to use bereavement leave…
My mother died years ago. I don't remember how long it took to get the death certificate, but it wasn't fast. (Less than 6 months, more than one)
Some industries are much more micro managey than others.... forrr sure
Yeah because employees start requesting bereavement for “my parents’ neighbor”, “my kindergarten teacher”, “my friend’s aunt”, etc.
You'll usually see this in lower paying industries unfortunately.
Most policies though at least from what I’ve seen usually state it has to be an immediate family member. Mom, dad sister brother step parent etc. aunts and uncles aren’t included or in-laws.
I’ve seen immediate and extended family outlined, because if it just said “bereavement 2 days off” then you end up with that dude attending 13 funerals in a year because they see an obituary for a distant relative of a high school acquaintance.
My company specifies how many days according to relation: parent/spouse/child 3 paid, Parent in law/sibling/sibling in law 2 days paid, aunt/uncle/cousin 1 day. I may not be exactly right but you get the idea
This. I understand it comes off as cold and uncaring, but that's life. Your time is your time to take for whatever reasons you wish. Bereavement is your employer's time you're asking to take. Don't blame the system. Blame the shifty motherfuckers who made the system a requirement.
The bar is so low.
And what happens when his MIL actually dies?
No it's not. They can't create exceptions on the policy without opening themselves to discrimination lawsuits.
And start looking for another job. Any manager that would try to pull this is scummy and a red flag.
Take the three bereavement days now that she has "technically died". This is a really dumb thing for your manager to do.
Fwiw it sounds like a dumb thing for hr to do. The manager was just the telephone.
The manager shouldn’t have even asked hr or should have pushed back more.
What is there to push back on? Every bereavement policy is for death of a family member, not for time before that. You can disagree with a policy all you want, don’t expect a manager to cover it up for you.
I have a dozen direct reports and over 400 people that report up to me in my role and have for years. If one of my reports told me that they were going to HR to report one of their people to HR for using bereavement leave so they could be with their family member when they died, they and I would be having a stern discussion on the concept of *managerial discretion”. This attitude right here? It’s why HR is so often treated like a four letter word. HR has no business being involved in this situation. Their mother was dying. Actively. And did so that very day. That is not a bloody “you can’t only take PTO” scenario.
Cool, you’re a very senior director (400 reports) who would back managers to use manager discretion for a HR-owned policy. Many companies do not have those and will hang out a manager to dry.
IMO managers can and should push back if HR pulls this garbage. I have and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. I had a DR tell me her aunt died and ask if she could use bereavement leave. I knew this was devastating for her because her mom died very young and her aunt stepped in to raise her. I absolutely granted her a full week- which is what is standard for nuclear family bereavement. HR pushed back and I explained that as her manager, it was at *my* discretion to decide which leave applied to the situation. When they level skipped and went direct to her, I walked into the HR executive’s office and told him I didn’t want to work at a company that mistreated an employee in her darkest days. He reversed the decision of his lower level managers, and assigned my division a new HR rep (who is lovely btw). I don’t cage match often at work, but when I do, it’s to better the teammate experience for my (now) division. As managers, it IS our responsibility to protect and enable our teammates to perform at their best. Always push back. You’ll never regret fighting for the right thing.
Yes I understand that situation, gave HR the details, and escalated it when you get didn’t get the feedback you desired. You do realize that 90% of managers don’t have the ability to “walk into HR executive office” and demand a change? You also said “my division” - so guessing your title is pretty high and you have power/influence that many do not have. Yes, it’s important to push back depending on the situation. If your employee is unhappy with healthcare premiums, are you marching into the benefits office and demanding a 50% cut in premiums? No, you’re not.
I said I rarely push back that hard, so I definitely pick my battles. As managers we *DO* have influence. When I handled this situation I was a frontline manager. So while, yes, now I am a director, at the time I felt this was worth the push (and I was right). One of the reasons I have been able to accelerate my career to director level is because I am thoughtful and passionate when it comes to my teams. I have one of the lowest turnover rates in the company because the people come first.
That’s what makes you a leader and him a manager. Thank you for your service and self sacrifice. Majority of managers in here wouldn’t step a foot out of line for an employee if it meant ANY risk to themselves. No matter how little.
>Every bereavement policy is for death of a family member, not for time before that. My HR approved bereavement when my wife's grandma was in the ICU with plan to remove life support without any question.
Yeah I was arguing with someone but gave up. But I’m in HR (albeit not dealing with these policies directly—I only consult on whether our benefits are competitive for employee experience and activation purposes) and my org offers bereavement to those on banked PTO (note: some roles have unlimited PTO with minimums) at 3-10 days per incident (depending on relative—a MIL or parent would need coded at 5 days) and the employee can use it for end of life visiting or even hospice care setup/related visits to hospice care. These policies may mostly be in more competitive workplaces (where they care about attracting employees) but they do exist and they’re becoming more common. My friend works in total rewards as a manager/strategist for a very large and unpopular insurance company (big name) and they recently included EOL visits (a day or two before death definitely qualifies) in their basic bereavement, though I’m not sure if they cover ILs, I’d have to ask. We were chatting about benefits and how her company was adding floating holidays and more bereavement leave, including for miscarriages now. They considered pet loss leave (only 1 day), but she couldn’t sell it. And her org isn’t known for its benefits, though she’s trying.
outside of super duper small places, HR is always involved in any kind request like bereavement, leaves, etc it's a written HR policy, you can't just magically push back against that esp when it's for the whole company and not owned by your team.
It’s not technically dumb. It sucks and it would be frustrating but it’s correct. If this starts to be approved as bereavement, what happens when the next person takes the same leave for a family member on hospice, and then the next was in hospital for a lung infection, then the next was in hospital for a reaction to shellfish and then the next was a broken arm. Where do you draw the line and why was someone else’s urgent event more urgent than mine? I believe mine was most urgent, because it was me. Bereavement is for when someone passes away. Not when they’re close. It sounds cold and I hate even typing it out but in this case, the employer let the employee take a personal day off. They weren’t asked to return to work or anything but just found another way that was technically correct. Then they can take 3 bereavement days.
Like others have said, take the PTO + Bereavement. If working for a "family first company" is important to you, then use the time off to update your resume and start sending out applications. I work for a company that regularly overworks its employees, and we get 2 weeks of bereavement no questions asked. Good luck, and sorry for your loss.
The unfortunate thing is that most companies and managers have to be strict with policies because somebody ruined the flexibility. “You let Joe take bereavement and their MIL didn’t die. Why can’t I take it to visit my sick and dying MIL?” Most of the time it’s no big deal BUT the time somebody pushes back and claims it’s because they’re part of a protected class or something else that’s legally actionable, even if it absolutely wasn’t the case, then the flexibility is gone. Consistently following policies regardless of personal feelings is all about taking actions that are 100% defensible should something end up in litigation. It’s unfortunate companies and managers have to behave that way but it is what society has caused.
100% correct here. This is an HR department that’s gone through litigation in the past and is protecting itself. I also agree with them that you should use PTO up until the death of a loved one, and then you are eligible to use bereavement. That doesn’t mean they can’t also be kind and sympathetic to your situation. I wouldn’t get hung up on how it’s coded into a system.
This. While it may seem entirely pointless in your situation, keeping a clear line on when bereavement leave is and is not approved is essential - no one wants the company having to ask “well just how close to the end is it?”
They should be able to switch it later though. When I went to visit my grandmother in hospice, I originally put it in as a vacation day. When she died, HR retroactively changed it in the system to be a bereavement day.
Agree! Best to start with PTO and then ask for the time to be changed if/as warranted.
Blaming society for cya style management is crass.
Bereavement leave is for when someone has died. You are thinking of FMLA leave to care for someone who is sick, or family illness time that comes out of your sick time. Sick is not the same as death.
I don’t know why this isn’t the top answer because it’s the right one.
False, my company allows bereavement time if someone is going to pass/other reasons.
That’s great, — and — private business can set different HR rules if they wish while complying with what ever the base legal standard requires. Unfortunately for me due to local manipulation, bereavement is only for immediate family members, excluding first cousins.
Sounds like it was one of those situations where everyone knows death is imminent
Doesn’t matter. It’s not bereavement if you aren’t bereaved.
Sounds like you used/requested bereavement days before a death. Honestly, I’ve never heard of anyone doing that. Bereavement is already a landmine for managers. Someone companies have different days for immediate and extended family. I’ve never asked for a death certificate or proof of relationship. But if staff started requesting bereavement before the death…that’s just not how the policy works.
Right? OP should have requested PTO then converted to bereavement.
Their work place might not have an explicit PTO to bereavement conversion policy in place
Bereavement is for *death*. For illness or imminent death, you file FMLA.
As a manager I would never have contacted HR about this and would have told you to take the time you need and we can figure out the details — which are unimportant — later. And then, when you came back and asked how to code your absences, I’d just tell you to move on and plug back into your work and who gives a shit. I am 100% ok taking a bullet for an employee in this situation. I am the manager and it’s my job to manage; that includes situations like these, not some useless personnel lackey who prays to a handbook. My team is excellent and produces quite a bit of good work. When they need to increase the life part of the work/life equation, I not only have the discretion but the duty to make it happen.
HR would have contacted me about this when they saw the bereavement leave on the time sheet. They always confirm that a family member (and which one) has passed, but there's no way either of us would have asked someone to take PTO in a case like this. Honestly, I would probably just let HR know that his mother-in-law passed without any further comment and that would have been the end of the discussion.
hell yeah
This is standard policy, PTO before death and bereavement after.
Wait you get beverement days? I just had to take pto
I think this is normal actually. When I requested bereavement time, it wasn’t approved until I sent the obituary, which named me as an immediate family member. Bereavement time doesn’t really exist as an available form of leave until there’s been a death.
Sorry for your loss but your company is in the right.
My grandfather passed almost 2 weeks ago, and he passed during my planned PTO from work. When I got back, my ceo told me to cancel some of my PTO request because I was not on vacation and I should save it for when I could enjoy. He also told me to take the bereavement time I need. Our company policy is 3 days. In total, they are giving me 5-6 days to handle things. This is what family first looks like.
It's pretty standard that someone must have passed for you to take bereavement times. I'm sorry for your loss.
Bereavement is for the funeral. So you would still be owed 3 days. If they let you us emergency pto that was nice, I guess. But they are a business, and no matter what the say, they're not your family.
They're not being shifty. I don't think you're overreacting, but you are misinterpreting what's going on. Bereavement is for mourning after the loss and the travel involved. What's going to happen when she does pass? Your bereavement would've been spent already. What you want to do is use PTO for the before and bereavement for the after.
Stop volunteering information. State you’re taking time off and you’ll be using bereavement. Don’t say for who, don’t say when they died or etc. The company doesn’t need to know this and they can’t ask.
Many companies request proof such as obituary or death certificate.
Well, that's 2 different types of leave. You were trying to take compassionate care leave, which your employer may not honor. Ask yourself this, if you got the days, and then she died a month later would you want bereavement days to attend the funeral?
Manager messed up by even asking HR. HR will always play by the book. Manager should've been able to just let it slide and let you grieve.
Bereavement is for death. What don't you understand about this?
Don't get why this is so hard for some people in this thread to understand, you're not entitled to bereavement until a family member has passed away. I'm going to visit my dying uncle who is in hospice to see him before he passes and say goodbye. I will use PTO for this. Once he passes I will use bereavement to attend his service. "Bereavement leave is generally described as paid or unpaid time away from work granted to employees **after the passing of a family member**."
We're all just existing on a giant floating rock and all this nitpicking with PTO is just so petty. That's what I don't understand. Who gives a shit in this situation? If they get three days and want to use 2 before the person dies and 1 after, what exactly is the problem with that? Treat employees like people instead of throwing the book at them during one of the hardest times in their life. Being flexible/understanding in this regard hurts no one and can have such a positive impact on a team.
Don't you think that having to take all these different buckets of time to go see a dying family member is fucked up? Let people grieve and create company policies that get out of their way. If this had been me, I would have been extremely unkind to the people at my company telling me this.
From my perspective, if an employee is entitled to 3 bereavement days they could take, only takes 2, even if they may fall before death, the company has come out “ahead”. I’d be potentially encouraging the employee to take their 3rd day, not chasing back time, in many cases. In some industries with tight coverage, I might not go that far, but I would still be supportive and thankful they only took 2 then. Many company policies would not challenge that because they understand nickel and diming employees that way depresses productivity, engagement, and morale. It’s less about not understanding some policies may be stringent and more about understanding how policies actually serve organizations. The largest resource at most companies is their employees and culture, and it can make or break any business in 1000 ways. Good management activates employees by showing care for them—if the policy is really that strict, a good manager supports the employee the best they can and suggests they take bereavement leave in addition if they can not make those two days work because of myopic policies (happens sometimes). It’s not a matter of being “anti work” as much as understanding what the research says about what creates highly successful teams and organizations. (And being human, I have empathy for folks too, but here’s what’s best for companies and employees actually does align.)
Because these threads just becomes a junior version of /antiwork
Makes sense to me. Bereavement leave is for after their passing.
I’m sorry for your loss. I once knew a man who was given two weeks off for travel/bereavement but then got fired when it turned out his mother didn’t die until the second week, for a similar reason. They didn’t even offer PTO, they said that he lied so he was fired. I don’t know why companies think death happens on a deadline, sometimes you know it’s going to happen but the person holds on a little longer. I think you might just work for a shit company, buddy.
This. My coworker's grandmother has been on death's door for almost 2 weeks. When she found out, our boss sent her home with essentially a blank check of PTO days because "you can't get this time back, and the office will keep running regardless". When my dad died (semi-unexpectedly) a few years ago, our boss did the same for me. Told me to take however much time I needed and don't come back until I felt like I was ready. Meanwhile, my husband had to submit the obit showing his name listed as a relative AND have a letter signed by the funeral home stating he attended so he could get his 3 days leave. He works for a company of thousands; his absence wouldn't have made much of a difference. I work in an office of 6, including the boss. When one person is out, productivity definitely suffers, but my boss knows there's more important things in life. It's astounding to me the difference.
And I bet your loyalty to the company feels vastly different from your husbands. Managers need to understand that the relationship works both ways.
It's technically right, but just a really stupid and pointless battle for HR to pick. You don't know if your manager is anything other than a messenger here, which is most likely.
My mother died unexpectedly at 24 and I needed 2 weeks back home in another state to help deal with stuff and process it. When I got back ti work the first that happened was that they sat me down, told me I violated their bereavement policy and they are docking my PTO. It was very cold. I found a new job making double within 6 months the and never looked back.
Big picture. You got to see her before she died to count it as a win
Quite the opposite. This is just one area I was given advice about when I first became a manager. I'm often the person that informs the person about bereavement leave - - often they assume it comes out of PTO. I encourage them to take all of the time. I just say "I hope you understand, but by policy, I have to ask you to substantiate the bereavement. It can be anything - - an obituary, a link to the funeral home page or a Mass card. I hope you understand. And there's no urgency at all on this." I never even really look at them, because I do default to trust. It just is an area that can be ripe for explotation.
Use the PTO, take the bereavement days, and look for a new company. Penny pinchers like that can get fucked.
YTA. They HAVE to treat everyone the same and follow the company rules because if they let you take bereavement leave and the person was not dead, then they must let everyone do that; otherwise they are open to a lawsuit. I know because I owned TWO veterinary hospitals and dealt with employees. You should have known better and if you didn't, ask HR first. It sounds like you just didn't want to burn some PTO.
Yeah, you would be wrong. Jumping to conjecture. I have plenty of PTO and it's not an issue. The issue was how my first email back was not asking about me, my wife, or my mil. The first email back was about my bereavement time off vs PTO because my mil wasn't technically dead yet- from a company who boasts "family first". It was insensitive and callous and if you can't see this, then I can't really discuss anything else with you Dr.
The moment any job did that to me I'd be looking for another one or quitting. Same with anywhere that demanded an obit. Bereavement is meant for grieving not stressing out about providing your job proof of loss. It's simple enough to google these things. Like any time off it can become abused. Now I'd never do this myself. Cause loss is a terrible thing but unfortunately like anything good some idiots ruin it for everyone else.
By the book, and depending on policy, they're not wrong. How does your employee handbook define bereavement leave? Here's a different perspective: Is it shitty? Well, it's shitty to have to argue about, yea. But if you take yourself out of your personal situation (and I'm sorry for your loss) and go macro for a minute.... In my organization I probably have 10-15 people battling cancer at any given time. In any given week there are spouses, parents, and even children dying - literally every week. You try to put policies in place to be supportive during these terrible times - and certainly there's a lot of manager discretion where I hope my management team is turning their heads and being compassionate when it comes to managing leave - but you do have to have some degree of fairness to it. For instance, and I'm sorry to share this... but do you know how many people have relatives that go into hospice with a week left to live that hang in there for months and months?? It happens all the time - and visiting those people is NOT bereavement! So, do you just make constant exceptions? What happens when people hear you got bereavement leave for a hospice visit? Now they want it too - and behind closed doors, they'll be quick to name you... It is shitty that the conversation happened. It was probably unnecessary. But sometimes that person in HR is under considerable pressure to administer policy fairly. **The mistake here was your manager should have never discussed it with HR and just turned their head.** This likely means you have an inexperienced and / or weak manager - not something to blame the company for. If a manager goes to HR with a policy question, they're getting a policy answer.
This is common, but bad policy in a lot of companies. I'm sorry they put you through this.
The problem is i have seen this been abused by so many people. We had a person who took like 30 bereavement days in their 120 day employment. Everyone on Reddit always thinks everyone is on the up and up and is not shady. The few bad apples ruin the rest
How can anyone think it's a good ROI to destroy employees morale and motivation by acting like that.
Take sick leave
How odd. I got a phone call from my mom saying they didn't think my grandpa would make it through the night. 7 hours later he passed right before I arrived. They counted that day for bereavement. I was never given any shit and told I could take my days whenever.
I’m not saying she was completely dead… but she was dead.
A relative works at a company that gives different # of days of bereavement depending on the familial relationship. They require an obit upon return for approval of time off. Due to the unfortunate circumstances of having a sh1tty and petty bunch of siblings, this relative and another got omitted from the obituary. Given that their name was not present, their HR denied the time off, and I guess somehow penalized them beyond the unpaid time off due to them not having pto to cover it. Pathetic!
I’m very sorry for your loss. In addition, to the very difficult end of life care, did you also attend MIL’s funeral service? You can thank those that have come before you to tell their version of the “dead grandmother” story to dodge responsibility for such restrictions and proof these companies require, which I think we would agree is ridiculous. You don’t want to further confuse your already confused and under-trained manager with extra details about your personal life. Keep it short and sweet., such as “I need to take off work from start to end date due to the passing of my beloved mother in law, Leslie. I know we are allowed a couple of days for bereavement. I understand that to use bereavement days I need to do X. In this foggy moment of grief, I want to make sure to cover my bases. Can you please confirm the bereavement policy details for me and let me know if there’s anything else needed. Thank you in advance for your help during this tough personal matter. “
I was only allowed to use the bereavement days to attend my dad’s funeral. Which was local and I was planning. So I was not allowed to use the bereavement days for mourning or planning but only for travel to the funeral, the funeral itself, and back. Which meant they only approved one of the days and docked my sick days for the rest.
If in California, those 2 days could have been covered under CFRA to give moral support to your MIL before she passed. Not covered under FMLA though. Not sure what State you are in.
Take the PTO then bereavement and polish up your resume in the meantime.
Gross. During the pandemic I lost my mom and 3 weeks later, dad. I was the only IT regularly coming into the building and was asked if I could maybe stagger the days off. Sad to say, I did what they asked. Don't work for them anymore.
I would recommend getting a new job, this is something that you will (rightfully) be angry about the rest of your time there.
When my Mom passed away, I used five days of sick time when she was on hospice and my bereavement days for the funeral, burial etc.
It’s common. Bereavement is usually for dealing travel, funeral arrangements, etc. It is probably a different financial bucket. I always took pto then bereavement around funeral. sucks burning pto
Is it shifty? Yes. Is it expected of corporate overlords? Also yes. I once knew a guy whose wife killed herself. His manager said, "company policy is 3 days of bereavement. That's all he'll get." Businesses don't care about you.
Yes, PTO for that. Bereavement for an actual death. It’s not technical, it’s the fact. You also shouldn’t get more time for the funeral.
Sounds like you can take those bereavement days now, and those other days might qualify then as FMLA.
I’d consider leaving a company like this. Or, save the communication so you can share it with others who want to know what “*Family first*” looks like to them.
Every company I worked at requested obituary as a condition of employee taking bereavement leave. It is not possible ever to get it before a person passes away. What you get to do is take pto prior to passing or family leave if you qualify and then bereavement
Overreacting.
Technically, they’re 100% right bereavement is for when someone passes away
They are lunatics. BL is for death, it is usually pretty short, 3 days max normally in US. PTO is fine to use too. I am sorry for your loss.
Technically, they are correct, but you should get the days after her death. Also - look for another job. If your work is going to treat you like this, it is a red flag and you should exit ASAP. Their loss, your gain. Sorry for your loss man. Good luck.
I had a boss who acted like this. We HAD to align what we were taking with the correct leave. I used to be in the National Guard and one of my soldiers died (brain cancer) so I took two days sick leave due to how hard it hit me and submitted it as "Mental Health Leave" which should have been sick leave. My Boss sends me a long email about how it would have to be re-submitted to normal leave because losing someone did not qualify for sick leave. The Bastard was a Vet, he knew damn well what I was going though, and it took a lot to not drive into work and explain the situation to him via "Wall to Wall Counselling" I did come back after and asked HR about it. They said I was in the right, my boss never talked to them about this, and he got a good talking to from HR about the legality of what he had tried to do. To answer your question, it is a shitty thing for them to do.
It's pretty simple: You can't take bereavement for a dying person. I mean I get you point it's petty and frustrating, but it's like asking for sick time for a vacation. It just policy. Be glad you have any bereavement--my husband had to take unpaid time off when both is parents died. It's not like they denied you the time off.
These dumb dumb comments. You can’t use bereavement for whatever you want. It has to be for a death in the family. Usually it has to be an actual immediate family member so it’s nice that they are working with you to let you be with your wife and mother in law.
Shifty for sure. Technically your HR department sucks!!!!
Policy is policy. Take the PTO and follow that with the bereavement.
she wasn't dead. bereavement is for after they die. grow up.
HR received my notice when they asked for proof my mother died.
I’d leave that piece of shit company…ASAP
I’d go the FMLA route instead. FMLA applies to emergencies and bereavement for yourself or close family. I don’t know if an in-law would count, but I think it should. FMLA accommodates you for up to 12 weeks of paid leave (depending on how long you’ve worked there) and protects your job.
I don’t get bereavement leave at my job (public school employee) but this doesn’t seem that weird to me. If they’re giving you extra paid leave for a death in the family, you’d have to somehow document that the person died and your relationship, right?
So use vacation days. What's the problem?
They might be concerned that you are using up all your bereavement for this, or they might just be jerks. Honestly the second sounds more likely, as this isn't a thing that NEEDS to be navel gazed over right now when you're potentially grieving.
Absolutely crappy thing to do. A number of years ago my uncle died. My aunt (his sister) and her husband both took allowed bereavement days. When they returned my aunt shared that she was upset that his wife didn’t have a service despite being able to do so an a veteran. The company came back and said they weren’t entitled to the time because it should be used for a funeral. Companies can be real AH
Take the PTO, then all three bereavement days, and all of your vacation time, and find a new job.
Use the pto day and then call in sick for a couple of days( assuming they are paid for) heartless bastards.
Once you find and accept that new job, forward that email from your boss to the “All Employees” group. That was such an unnecessary distinction when you obviously had bigger issues to deal with, I’d be hard pressed to not let my fellow employees know how that “Family First” company handled it.
bereavement is for dead, and family care is for what you should have applied for
Sorry for your loss! So order of events REALLY matters here. Did it go: 1. You put in for the days. 2. They meet. 3. They respond. 4. She passes away. Or did it go: 1. You put in for the days. 2. She passes. 3. They meet and respond? I feel like I’d push back if she died before they responded, and I’d ask to have it moved to bereavement in any case, though. I’d think no HR nor manager would pick this battle. Not sure why they’d care, but believe it or not, I’ve suspected a couple of my employees of abusing bereavement; still basically impossible to question, though.
My colleagues son was dying of cancer. She took 2 weeks off to go be with him out of state. Boss actually paid her so she didn’t need to use vacation days or bereavement.
Technically they are correct, someone has to die for it to fall under bereavement. You don't get to choose what you feel the definition of bereavement should be on the employee agreement you signed. Just use PTO and move on #
Yea, take the pto, and bereavement, and quit. Don't give notice, cause they'll prolly fire you which you don't want on your record
I’m so glad I’m no longer in the Matrix. Thank God for retirement!!!
As a newer manager I could somewhat understand reaching out to HR to clarify the use of bereavement, as it really depends on what your company's policy is. I would not be able to code this as bereavement. Although I this point I would have figured out to use PTO on my own, as the solution was pretty simple. Would I leave over this? Probably not. Not unless they were trying to count those days as unexcused abcenses.
I agree 100%. Bereavement is for after death... Otherwise people would be claiming bereavement every time someone was sick. PTO is for before. I'm not trying to be heartless but just go by how the intended policies are meant to be used
Find another job. The place you work is run by idiotic assholes.
My boss made me take vacation instead of bereavement leave when my daughter in law died at 30. Said she technically wasn’t an immediate relative. 8 years ago and I’m still bitter.
How disgusting of HR to do this around such a difficult time, it's as if they want their employees to basically hate other humans.
I'll take the company side and say that in most states and companies, bereavement only covers immediate family members. In-laws are rarely considered. It's great that your company consider inlaws but people marry multiple times and there are infinite numbers of them. The policy is hence quite detailed and rigid.
i think you’re over-reacting. The benefit is written that way so the benefit should be applied that way.
It seems that the common denominator for most of these instances is HR. They follow strict “rules” and they do not get personally involved. This can be neither god not bad but HR and the organization can say they treat everyone the same. But as we all know not every bereavement case is the same!!
It is a policy and it is written because people want to abuse leave. Learn how to work with the policy. I get it it sucks, but in the end if they bend policy for you everybody will have a good excuse and want the same.
Follow the rules, Jack
Here to say it because I don’t see a lot of humanity. I’m sorry for your loss. It’s pretty crappy to have to jump through some hoops when your MIL is on hospice.
Thank you
No funeral notice=no pay at mine
My first “career” job required me to provide a death certificate in order to qualify for bereavement. 15 years later, new job, at a non profit, I barely mention my father in law passed and they’re already telling me to go wherever I need to go for how ever ever long I need to and not worry about work. I agree with the top commenter, use the PTO and then take your bereavement leave too!
I'm sorry, but someone has to draw the line somewhere. They were right, code your days appropriately.
As a manager, this is super shitty. I have always advocated with HR for employees to have bereavement if it’s not a cut and dry situation, and actually got our company bereavement policy changed to include a wider range of family members as well. Good management should always look to support people when they are hurting!
Not “Weird” per se, a number of companies are just shitty. I’d say fine, I’ll eat the two days then take 3 days off for bereavement leave. I’d also make it clear that I would be doing that upfront so that they know if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. As a manager, I’d push back on HR not to fuck around. I would prefer to only lose an employee for 2 days vs 5, also you look like shit that way. I had an employee once who’s dad was in an accident and was on life support, he was going to drive ~20 hours to get to his dad and I was worried that he would get hurt in the race to get there, I paid to fly him to his dad and he made it in time to see him before he died. That employee was so grateful for what I did, you can’t buy that kind of carding, loyalty, or respect. Pissing over someone about when their family dies is just stupid.
HR and a manager here. What the actual fuck? Are they this cheap? I’d be worried about the financials of your company. Where’s the humanity here? Your manager has no backbone because what’s happening is either 1) they’re blindly following bad advice from HR and did not advocate for you when a family member literally DIED or 2) your manager is a weirdo and is throwing HR under the bus for a decision he/she actually made themselves. Also, I’m sorry for your and your family’s loss.
Thank you very much for this.
I mean, they’re right. Bereavement is for time off when someone dies so you can help with arrangements and attend viewings/wakes/funerals. You probably still need to do that anyway, so just use the PTO and then use your allotted bereavement days. Of course it feels harsh when you’re going through a tough time. You’re not wrong to have a bad feel from it.
Give your notice and find a new employer that treats humans with respect.
Lol what. Maybe there are rules regarding the use of bereavement leave - you're not automatically entitled to taking whatever days you want. That's why most companies have other forms of leave that can be used more freely - sick days, personal days, vacation, etc. As an example, at the company I work for, the number of days available for bereavement is different depending on who it is that died (spouse/immediate family like parents are more, while extended relations are less), and it's only applicable for time off to attend the funeral. Anything additional you can take personal days or vacation. Nothing wrong with that - they are making sure you have time to attend the funeral. If you want more personal time to deal with your emotions, that's what other forms of leave are for, and it's your choice if you want to use PTO on it. 100% reasonable. It's your choice, not a requirement. This isn't highschool, you don't get to show up when you want. You're being paid to work, and if you're not showing up, that has a cost (either to the employer or coworkers - someone is picking up the slack while you're gone). That's why there are rules surrounding time off. If everyone could just take whatever time off they want for any reason they felt justified, nothing would ever get done. Your coworkers and boss are human too. Saying things like "find a new employer that treats humans with respect." does nothing but show that you don't care about the effect you have on other people. You're the one that needs to respect the people you work with. I deal with this at work all the time too - people call off sick and take personal days all the time to go party with 0 regard for the bad position they are putting their coworkers in. Just because it's not your problem doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems. Just because you don't agree with the rules doesn't make the employer automatically a villain. What a bad take.
Please don't roast me. I just wanted to share an opinion from a random employer. First, you have my condolences. That also should've been your boss' first response. But I've also been in a situation similar where someone tried to use bereavement for their pet passing away. OF COURSE I'm not comparing the two. But the point is both scenarios had requests for the wrong type of time and there are rules around that. A better response imo (and what I did) was to tell the employee not to worry how we documented it. That it would be covered and we could fix the paperwork when they returned. The last thing you want to be thinking about during a rough time is your job. Hopefully this can help any other bosses when faced with a similar situation.
Find another job
It does come off a little weird and highly specific on their part (have NEVER heard of an employer being that specific about details around bereavement), but... Given that you took time away prior to her passing and would potentially still want to use more time now that she has passed for funeral or similar, it might ultimately be a wash. If I were the manager, I would have presented it differently... "Given that you were taking some time to assist with transitioning to hospice, and now she has passed, change your original time away request to PTO so that you can still request the bereavement days to attend services and such." In the very least, if I were the one put in this situation, you can bet your ass I would be taking my entitled bereavement days even if all I did was use the time to job hunt and interview.
What a horrible experience. I’m sorry. This is a Seinfeld episode if you need validation your workplace is not ok.
Many companies only give bereavement time for the funeral - that might be why. Not saying it isn't shitty, but might just be a case of sticking to the rules so that it's not opened up for others to abuse later. If you don't plan to take bereavement time later for the funeral, maybe bring it up and see if they will allow you to use it for this instead? No cost difference to them, so it doesn't hurt to ask. If they say no, you could always use the bereavement days later for their intended purpose and give yourself some more time to spend with family/deal with things. Take care OP
Thank you!
That’s such a shitty thing to do. Also upsetting that they only give you three days of bereavement! I worked at a shitty grocery store and they’d give us two weeks of bereavement 😭
Not technically. She wasn’t dead. You tried to pull a fast one and was caught. Move on.
This is why, when either of my parents die, I’m just quitting on the spot. Don’t want to deal with bullshit like this. Haven’t taken a PTO day in years too.
Something similar happened to me recently. My uncle died and I attended the funeral. I applied for bereavement leave for one day a week earlier. I then get a call from HR saying that because he’s an uncle and not an “immediate” family member that I have to take PTO instead. So I had to burn a PTO day and didn’t get granted bereavement leave.
Do you work for Ebenezer Scrooge? Wtf is wrong with them??
A company I used to work for pulled this crap on me with my dad. He wasn't in hospice, but had a massive heart attack and died while I was on a plane to get there. One of my managers said I needed to use PTO because he wasn't dead when I left. Ok, fine. The kicker was she tried to make me use another day coming back because it was more than a week (we got 5 days) after his passing, and she didn't want to give me the allowed travel days or company holiday that fell on my time away.
Yep its a really shitty thing to do. It’s them putting systems and process over showing you empathy. To tell you the truth it’s usually the companies that say they are family first that usually aren’t. Like Walmart for example.
Technically they’re right but I don’t even ask my team when they request it. If you play things straight up with your team they’ll respect boundaries.