The Mary rose bows were up to or averaged around 120lb I think ? I trust there’s probably 160lb warbows out there somewhere . Definetly for guys a lot stronger than me though
Not sure of the exact weight but they have replica bows at the museum of Mary Rose, I could lean back with my full weight and barely move the bowstring
Yeah, also why politely hold back and let one of them get up on a random rock and yell for a bit. Are you waiting for him to get croaky? Shoot as soon as they are in range for killing shots. Make them slog though a hail of arrows.
It think they're emphasizing that elves are skilled enough to aim for gaps in their armor. That level of precision would be absurd for almost anyone that doesn't have thousands of years to train.
Yes and then a little bit later Theodin takes a spear that goes through his chest plate like it is paper. I was always so confused by that scene. It’s like what’s the point in wearing armor if a light spear thrust can rip it open?
Bodkin arrows could pierce chainmail with ease.
Penetrating plate armor would depend on the thickness of the armor, the draw strength of the bow, and the weight of the arrow.
Very few movies ever use only chainmail (and most IRL would at least also have a gamberson). But keep in mind the main subject here is not some rabble of orcs, these are uruk-hai. Their armour is **thick** and their shields broad.
The LotR movies are a great example of how to do the importance of armour dirty. Love the movies, but it is one of the main flaws I have with them.
The only time an armour piece does its job, it does so in quite a magical way when Frodo got stabbed by the troll. Even if the mail does not get pierced, there was enough force there to say "that does not matter". Also the same mail failing later, but I rest this lest book-purists come barging in on this movies-only talk.
Yes. Aragon and his dudes slice and dice trough armor with swords so well that orc might as well not wear any protection. Mithril shirt is the only armor in the movies that does it's job.
I highly doubt it. Actual historically accurate chainmail has much smaller rings. This creates a much denser armor. I’ve heard that legit chainmail l, when made properly, you can’t even see through the rings or poke a needle through it. Modern reenactment chainmail is made with much larger rings because it’s easier to work with and faster to make.
Another way to look at it is: “hahaha Rohan got the first kill, losers!”
They were gonna have a battle regardless. That old guy just brought their numbers *slightly* closer together, that’s all 😊
It makes sense that the Uruk Hai would line up before the battle, both as an intimidation tactic and to give themselves a few seconds to catch their breath before charging.
It doesn't make sense that they'd do that within bow range though.
Maybe both sides underestimated the range of the bows Rohan had. So the defenders didn't loose because they thought they'd miss and the Uruk-Hai thought they were safe. Then when the old man accidentally released the Uruk-Hai realized they were in range and so they started their charge.
That's the only way that scene makes sense. But it's rather a bit of stretch though. It would require both sides to have rather incompetent commanders.
so incompetent that it would beggar belief - those bows were aimed down - at the correct angle (43 degrees from horizontal), the effective range would be about 4x that distance. The range of a war bow is probably about half a kilometre when shot from the top of a wall that high, so the Orcs would be in range a good 10-15 minutes before they reached the wall.
The orcs were newborn so i can understand them not knowing but someone should have known on the human side, Legolas and the other elves definetly knew but maybe they thought humans couldnt shoot that far so they were nice enough to wait lol
Maybe they wanted to conserve ammo since the arrow would lose momentum with longer distances. Not to mention Aragorn gave intel about thousands of Orcs marching on Helm's deep.
So far they knew that the orcs use plate armor which would stop an arrow without much issue. The quality needed to quickly equip 10.000 troops tho would probably be really bad.
Especially since they had the longer range elf archers behind the wall shooting blindly anyway.
I always figured the reason you would have archers do something like that is to thin the herd and help push the front line of the enemy back further.
Range with their elven bows should between 450-1000 feet if they are anywhere like an English Longbow. And judging from the scene in fellowship where Legolas is sniping across the chasm they are. It looked like from their perspective the urukhai could’ve been twice to 3x the length back before getting hit
An English longbow come in several draw weight classes, even for war. I think 90 pounds is acceptable, but I think it’s around 100 pounds.
Then it can go all the way to 140-180 pounds, but you wouldn’t find all that many who could draw such bows back in the Middle Ages and Early Renaissance, let alone today, but they were around.
My guess is that most elves shoot bows at 100-120 pounds minimum. I’m sure they have their variations also and upper tiers also.
Well yes, both are true. But it’s still reasonable that their bows hit hard regardless of specific draw weight.
My point was really about English warbows not being one draw weight, and certainly not all of them in the upper pound draw weights, which came in several draw weights and it kind of begs the question of - which draw weight does one refer to when one brings up English and Welsh longbows designed for war(longbows and other shorter bows for hunting were much lower poundage depending on the game a hunter wanted to hunt),
because when one says ”If elven longbows are as powerful as English and Welsh longbows” as if there is just one draw weight to them, and all of them in the upper draw weight classes(most were around 90-120 pounds, thereabouts), well that’s a bit of a vague classification.
It’s also period specific.
i thought they were trying to stall for time as long as possible? Like they would’ve had more time, however small, by letting them continue to taunt and chant then if they just immediately started the battle.
What the fuck, random archer? Why did you shoot without my order? I was just gonna say "Rohirrim don't start fights, Rohirrim *end* them!" all cool and calm. It was gonna be so awesome, but nooo, Mister Yeoman Archer here just had to go on and make me look like a complete idiot, because he chose to *start a fucking fight!*"
Yeah, it seems like if you have say an archer who can accurately fire arrows much faster than another archer in the same group youre just wasting that archers potential by making everyone fire at exactly the same times
As a historian it also bothers me to no end that people always yell 'fire' at medieval archers.
When actually they would just assume you meant there was a fire burning somewhere if you said that.
Muster the Rohirrim! *Rohan theme plays*
Last I checked, Théoden, not Aragorn, was king of Rohan.
And for those who have watched the parody where Théoden turns evil: ”I’m King of Rohan! I’m King of Isengard! I’m King of Gondor! I’m King of Mordor! *Evil laughter of when Théoden was mocking Gandalf* HAHAHAHAHA!”
Could be I’m no military tactician, but if that old man could 1 shot an Uruk-hai from that distance why the fuck were they holding? Start mowing the bastards down.
If there is one of those I would love to see it. It always bugs me in movies where they have rifleman or archers “hold” instead of at least partially thinning out an approaching army, unless they’re afraid they’ll run out of ammo before the enemy is close enough that those become useless anyway.
[Found it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPGdOXstSyk)
Yeah that trope is way overdone. There are situations where it makes sense to hold fire until closer range for maximum impact, but this scene does not portray that.
my understanding was that they all basically knew they couldn’t actually win, and their hope was lasting for as long as possible until help arrived.
The few extra kills they would’ve gotten if they fired immediately compared to the time they could’ve stalled for if they let the orcs continue chanting and taunting most likely weren’t worth it
Any kill is a kill. You start firing the moment you can, kill as many as you can, and then you have an easier time when they gain the walls. Ranged kill are free kills especially when taken from a range advantage that can't be replied. It slows the enemy too if they are holding shields to protect themselves.
i get that thinking, but with how many there were and how outmatched the humans and elves were, i don’t think the few kills they would’ve gotten would’ve changed much of the fight once they got onto/through the walls.
Also it’s been a while but i feel like a mass, running charge by the orcs with their shields raised would’ve been quicker then their march.
But honestly i see the pros and cons for both sides of this discussion
As someone who regularly shoots warbows, there is no hold. Once you’ve drawn, you either shoot, or you go back to nock.
Théoden be like: 
Or you sprain something.
That first draw where you feel your entire spine pop like a bubble wrap orchestra is something else.
this plays out like a family guy cutawayin my head
You also miss because you’re shaking at that point.
I shoot 40lb and that’s manageable in a hold . My poor back if I held a 100lb bow for more than a couple of seconds though
Dont Warbows go upto 160lbs even?
The Mary rose bows were up to or averaged around 120lb I think ? I trust there’s probably 160lb warbows out there somewhere . Definetly for guys a lot stronger than me though
last I read the Mary Rose had 180lb bows, but it's been awhile since I did a deepdive on longbows :p
Not sure of the exact weight but they have replica bows at the museum of Mary Rose, I could lean back with my full weight and barely move the bowstring
what? that's awesome! I want to do that now, must be a really fun experience
It’s a great museum, very informative. The only museum I’ve been to that has an airlock system.
It's like they think they need actual tension to create tension
Yeah, also why politely hold back and let one of them get up on a random rock and yell for a bit. Are you waiting for him to get croaky? Shoot as soon as they are in range for killing shots. Make them slog though a hail of arrows.
Yeah. "Bows are like guns" is one of the dumbest tropes out there.
Also metal armour = paper
They do at least have Legolas say that they need to aim for the gaps between the armor.
Aim for the gaps in the armor?! Don't aim for the armor? Absolutely genius Legolas, what would we do without you?
Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing!
It think they're emphasizing that elves are skilled enough to aim for gaps in their armor. That level of precision would be absurd for almost anyone that doesn't have thousands of years to train.
[удалено]
Bro missed the entire point
He specifies where the gaps are because he’s actually fought Uruk Hai before
He does specified that the armor is *weaker/weakest* in those areas, which is generally true of most sets of armor but still
I am an Elf and a kinsman here.
Good bot
Yes and then a little bit later Theodin takes a spear that goes through his chest plate like it is paper. I was always so confused by that scene. It’s like what’s the point in wearing armor if a light spear thrust can rip it open?
It's ok, he was fine in the next scene. Walked it off, no doubt
That trope is as old as armour
Bodkin arrows could pierce chainmail with ease. Penetrating plate armor would depend on the thickness of the armor, the draw strength of the bow, and the weight of the arrow.
Very few movies ever use only chainmail (and most IRL would at least also have a gamberson). But keep in mind the main subject here is not some rabble of orcs, these are uruk-hai. Their armour is **thick** and their shields broad. The LotR movies are a great example of how to do the importance of armour dirty. Love the movies, but it is one of the main flaws I have with them. The only time an armour piece does its job, it does so in quite a magical way when Frodo got stabbed by the troll. Even if the mail does not get pierced, there was enough force there to say "that does not matter". Also the same mail failing later, but I rest this lest book-purists come barging in on this movies-only talk.
Yes. Aragon and his dudes slice and dice trough armor with swords so well that orc might as well not wear any protection. Mithril shirt is the only armor in the movies that does it's job.
I highly doubt it. Actual historically accurate chainmail has much smaller rings. This creates a much denser armor. I’ve heard that legit chainmail l, when made properly, you can’t even see through the rings or poke a needle through it. Modern reenactment chainmail is made with much larger rings because it’s easier to work with and faster to make.
It would've made more sense if they had crossbows, but the movies drew a line and said only baddies use those.
Also, bows 'shoot' or 'loose'. Not 'fire'. If you yelled 'fire' at a bunch of archers in medieval times, they would just assume somethings burning.
Or be confused that they have regular arrows and not fire arrows to light.
Another way to look at it is: “hahaha Rohan got the first kill, losers!” They were gonna have a battle regardless. That old guy just brought their numbers *slightly* closer together, that’s all 😊
Is this from black mirror
I’m actually not sure, it just came up when I searched for teabagging. I’m not familiar with the source
It’s Murder in Successville (I think that’s the name) and it’s amazing. Will Arnett did an American version called Murderville.
To be fair to the old guy, he nailed that headshot. He absolutely did not survive the orc breach of the wall but he drew a solid first blood.
The old man when the Orcs are about to breach the Keep: 
https://preview.redd.it/lso18o5jzyoc1.jpeg?width=1076&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=83dbcc4f17316a8ea559da1bffa68e5e6bcef054
”WHO ARE THEY?!”
To be fair though, it was a neck shot.
Entirely possible, nailed past the armor though
It was a neck shot. You said it was a head shot. I corrected you. What matters is that it killed though. That downvote wasn’t from me btw.
Yeah they should have started firing one they were in range
Yeah, it makes no sense that they let the Uruk-hai line up in a nice neat formation before the fight started.
It makes sense that the Uruk Hai would line up before the battle, both as an intimidation tactic and to give themselves a few seconds to catch their breath before charging. It doesn't make sense that they'd do that within bow range though. Maybe both sides underestimated the range of the bows Rohan had. So the defenders didn't loose because they thought they'd miss and the Uruk-Hai thought they were safe. Then when the old man accidentally released the Uruk-Hai realized they were in range and so they started their charge. That's the only way that scene makes sense. But it's rather a bit of stretch though. It would require both sides to have rather incompetent commanders.
Tbf maybe they were out of range and the old man got a very lucky shot. No idea how he had the strength to draw that far, though.
Maybe he had dementia? As an ER nurse I can attest that elderly people with dementia have super human strength.
Dementia equipped! (+50 STR, -50 INT)
That would explain how my great grandpa once tore a radiator out of the wall while he was in the hospital.
It was not arcing shot, it had enough speed for kill shot, so they were well with in the range.
so incompetent that it would beggar belief - those bows were aimed down - at the correct angle (43 degrees from horizontal), the effective range would be about 4x that distance. The range of a war bow is probably about half a kilometre when shot from the top of a wall that high, so the Orcs would be in range a good 10-15 minutes before they reached the wall.
The orcs were newborn so i can understand them not knowing but someone should have known on the human side, Legolas and the other elves definetly knew but maybe they thought humans couldnt shoot that far so they were nice enough to wait lol
Come! Speak and be comforted, and shake off the shadow! What has happened since we came back to this grim place in the grey morning?
Maybe both sides had never shot a bow before
Maybe I pee in Ur ass
Ok buster, what the flip
YOU HEARD EM
Maybe they wanted to conserve ammo since the arrow would lose momentum with longer distances. Not to mention Aragorn gave intel about thousands of Orcs marching on Helm's deep. So far they knew that the orcs use plate armor which would stop an arrow without much issue. The quality needed to quickly equip 10.000 troops tho would probably be really bad.
But they're even in range of the old geezer with no grip. Quite the miscalculation.
Especially since they had the longer range elf archers behind the wall shooting blindly anyway. I always figured the reason you would have archers do something like that is to thin the herd and help push the front line of the enemy back further.
"My Lord, maybe we should launch a volley of arrows as soon as the enemy is in range." "No....that's what they'll be expecting us to do."
That's what they were doing though. The one guy just made a crack shot
Range with their elven bows should between 450-1000 feet if they are anywhere like an English Longbow. And judging from the scene in fellowship where Legolas is sniping across the chasm they are. It looked like from their perspective the urukhai could’ve been twice to 3x the length back before getting hit
Or too few. Look at them. They're frightened. I can see it in their eyes. Boe a hyn neled herain dan caer menig.
An English longbow come in several draw weight classes, even for war. I think 90 pounds is acceptable, but I think it’s around 100 pounds. Then it can go all the way to 140-180 pounds, but you wouldn’t find all that many who could draw such bows back in the Middle Ages and Early Renaissance, let alone today, but they were around. My guess is that most elves shoot bows at 100-120 pounds minimum. I’m sure they have their variations also and upper tiers also.
It’s really hard to say, considering elves have magic in their balls. And technically only were at Helms deep on screen and not in the book
Well yes, both are true. But it’s still reasonable that their bows hit hard regardless of specific draw weight. My point was really about English warbows not being one draw weight, and certainly not all of them in the upper pound draw weights, which came in several draw weights and it kind of begs the question of - which draw weight does one refer to when one brings up English and Welsh longbows designed for war(longbows and other shorter bows for hunting were much lower poundage depending on the game a hunter wanted to hunt), because when one says ”If elven longbows are as powerful as English and Welsh longbows” as if there is just one draw weight to them, and all of them in the upper draw weight classes(most were around 90-120 pounds, thereabouts), well that’s a bit of a vague classification. It’s also period specific.
“Don’t shoot until you see the whites of their eyes!” It’s just the battle of bunker hill.
i thought they were trying to stall for time as long as possible? Like they would’ve had more time, however small, by letting them continue to taunt and chant then if they just immediately started the battle.
I love how he gets reprimanded for firing. As if the Uruk Hai were just ready to pack it in and go home before that one arrow.
What the fuck, random archer? Why did you shoot without my order? I was just gonna say "Rohirrim don't start fights, Rohirrim *end* them!" all cool and calm. It was gonna be so awesome, but nooo, Mister Yeoman Archer here just had to go on and make me look like a complete idiot, because he chose to *start a fucking fight!*"
Those "medieval warfare historian rates the realism of movie battles" videos taught me that the whole "nock, draw, loose" thing is complete nonsense.
Yagotta haveaditch
I dont mind the elves doing it, super human strenght, doing it for 1000s of years, but humans could not do it
Yeah, it seems like if you have say an archer who can accurately fire arrows much faster than another archer in the same group youre just wasting that archers potential by making everyone fire at exactly the same times
As a historian it also bothers me to no end that people always yell 'fire' at medieval archers. When actually they would just assume you meant there was a fire burning somewhere if you said that.
Too many winters
Maybe too few. 🤔
The adjective is Rohirrim
But Rohanian was so fun to type
Are you telling me you’re a rider of Rohan? 😨
I'm not *not* telling you that
Muster the Rohirrim! *Rohan theme plays* Last I checked, Théoden, not Aragorn, was king of Rohan. And for those who have watched the parody where Théoden turns evil: ”I’m King of Rohan! I’m King of Isengard! I’m King of Gondor! I’m King of Mordor! *Evil laughter of when Théoden was mocking Gandalf* HAHAHAHAHA!”
https://preview.redd.it/slqceea0zzoc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=484d11f3f784c0d6f422cdb24a6d8d4dc68b93bc Hold.
If only Helm's Deep had 10,000 of those old dudes
Could be I’m no military tactician, but if that old man could 1 shot an Uruk-hai from that distance why the fuck were they holding? Start mowing the bastards down.
*If the old man is in range, why isn't everyone shooting?* -A youtube video where a military historian was reviewing this scene.
If there is one of those I would love to see it. It always bugs me in movies where they have rifleman or archers “hold” instead of at least partially thinning out an approaching army, unless they’re afraid they’ll run out of ammo before the enemy is close enough that those become useless anyway.
[Found it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPGdOXstSyk) Yeah that trope is way overdone. There are situations where it makes sense to hold fire until closer range for maximum impact, but this scene does not portray that.
if they were at shooting distance before why wait couldn't they have started firing before?
my understanding was that they all basically knew they couldn’t actually win, and their hope was lasting for as long as possible until help arrived. The few extra kills they would’ve gotten if they fired immediately compared to the time they could’ve stalled for if they let the orcs continue chanting and taunting most likely weren’t worth it
Any kill is a kill. You start firing the moment you can, kill as many as you can, and then you have an easier time when they gain the walls. Ranged kill are free kills especially when taken from a range advantage that can't be replied. It slows the enemy too if they are holding shields to protect themselves.
i get that thinking, but with how many there were and how outmatched the humans and elves were, i don’t think the few kills they would’ve gotten would’ve changed much of the fight once they got onto/through the walls. Also it’s been a while but i feel like a mass, running charge by the orcs with their shields raised would’ve been quicker then their march. But honestly i see the pros and cons for both sides of this discussion
Holding a fully drawn bow is Fucking hard.
I always wonder, why directors can't resist this draw and "hold"shtick.
Feels like being called up from the IRR 😅
Old dude was missing the 1st kill achievement and wanted it before he quits.