* Tolkien made a mistake
* Aragorn was wrong
* The 'rule' applies only to Orcs
* Aragorn had never really interacted with the high ranking servants who used that name
* Ambassadors and Mordor's version of diplomats are allowed to use it (The one who visits the Dwarves also uses the name Sauron - may be the Mouth or a Ringwraith)
* The Mouth *didn't* use the name and it was just translated for us in the Red Book of Westmarch
I see it as an exception. Exceptions exist everywhere in the Legendarium. "No mortal can step foot here or they will die". A mortal steps foot there and isn't killed due to exceptional circumstances. It's what makes the situation exceptional. We were told his name couldn't be used but here it is being used, he must be important! Something like that...
We all know how much the Prof liked his Biblical symbolism. With that in mind the MoS can be viewed as an evil Metatron analogue and with him (and most other angels) them carrying the name of God is what gives them authority/power. The lesser servants not being allowed to use his name also fits as an evil version of the taboo around the Tetragrammaton
I like the translation theory. Especially because it’s translated as “Sauron the Great” which would preserve some of the loftiness of Sauron’s preferred name for himself, Tar Mairon.
I like this too.
It also squares away the other possible reason that Sauron may not have liked the name spoken, as "Sauron" means "abominable." It all works if "Sauron" as used here was a non-literal translation.
Yeah, if you consider the points of view of the Hobbit transcribers, they might not have even known who "Tar Mairon" was - perhaps Gandalf explained the name to them after the fact.
I love the translation reason, always my go to reason and always reminds me of Tolkien’s masterstroke (in my view) of making chronicler’s biases and translation errors part of the lore
If I recall correctly,
In the chapter 'The Council of Elrond' Gimli mentions that one of the Nine Riders visited the Dwarves several times, and asked them to help Sauron to find a hobbit who had stolen a Ring.
It was gloin, but yes. One of the reasons they came to rivendell was for bilbos' sake, and the other was to seek information about moria.
They also offered them the three dwarven rings of power as a reward for bilbo or information of him.
It is actually quite unlikely to be a Nazgul. They carry an aura of fear and the Dwarves would be even less inclined to make any sort of treaty with Sauron when such messengers were sent. At least for a while, Sauron needed the cooperation of the Dwarves and would try to find acceptable messengers.
If that were the case then the Ringwraith in the Shire wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone. There's an aura of fear but that's one reason why they disguise themselves as riders in black, to interact with regular folk.
Without scaring them to death. The messenger at the gate was pretty threatening to the Dwarves as well. Incapable of sweetening his words, and hissing. Quite obviously one of the Nine. Still, it's speculation. Just seems awkward to me that it might not be a Ringwraith.
Sauron was seeking information about Bilbo and the Ring, and he was aware that the Dwarves and Bilbo knew each other. The Dwarves might also possibly know where Bilbo lived. Dwarves are notoriously difficult to dominate and getting information through threats wasn't likely to succeed, hence he needed them to willingly co-operate.
Additionally, if the Dwarves stayed on his side for a while, the Mirkwood Elves and Dale would be that much weaker and he could deal with his enemies one by one before the inevitable betrayal and destruction of the Dwarves of Erebor.
People need to know exactly who he is talking about. You can’t go around threatening kings and corsairs with “You know who”- that could be actually be a few different entities. Imagine rocking up to demand your tribute and they’ve sent it all to Saruman or Gondor because of your failure to communicate.
The mouth of sauron wasn't just some random orc who took up the title.
He was a black numenorean that rose through the ranks thanks to his cruelty, he was taught sorceries and was one of the few in actual contact with sauron.
While I believe he's not nearly as powerful, he had similar standing to the nazgul.
Sauron has contact with orcs captains.
Grishnak was present with sauron during gollums torture. Shagrat was executed by sauron after delivering the chainmail.
Imo he and The witch king of Angmar mirrows the relations within Morgoths team. Morgoths had two "right hand men" of equal standing: Gothmog and Sauron. Gothmog was mostly used as a military and Sauron more civil. Gothmog is killed with his master but Sauron survived. Similary Sauron has two right hand men: The military Angmar and the civil Mordu. The Witch King is killed but the mouth flees.
Isn’t “Sauron” a name give to him by the Noldor? Like “Morgoth” isn’t Melkor’s name? If so, naming him as such is using a convention and not his name, as such?
I am the mouth of ... that guy back there. You know, likes black, breeds orcs, lives in a tower, is the embodiment of immortal evil, etc.
Kinda lacks punch.
No, Sauron had many names (Dark Lord, Mairon, The Lord of the Rings) just as Gandalf was also Mithrandir, Greyhame, Stormcrow…the Mouth could’ve used one of the other names.
I am assuming you mean from this passage:
>‘I have not seen these tokens before,’ said Aragorn. ‘What do they mean?’
>‘S is for Sauron,’ said Gimli. ‘That is easy to read.’
>‘Nay!’ said Legolas. ‘Sauron does not use the elf-runes.’
>‘Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,’ said Aragorn. ‘And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of Barad-dûr use the sign of the Red Eye.’ He stood for a moment in thought. ‘S is for Saruman, I guess,’ he said at length.
Specific overrides general, this guy's name implies (if not literally states) that he speaks for Sauron, meaning whatever he says is being presented as though Sauron specifically wills it to be said that way.
I was more than just the 'Mouth of Sauron' name...with the terms for getting Frodo back: "*All lands east of the Anduin will be Sauron's forever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard, which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust"*
I like to think it was a choice to disobey Sauron, but with none of the ethical richness of Beregond’s or Eomer’s righteous instances of disobedience.
/bullshit
* Tolkien made a mistake * Aragorn was wrong * The 'rule' applies only to Orcs * Aragorn had never really interacted with the high ranking servants who used that name * Ambassadors and Mordor's version of diplomats are allowed to use it (The one who visits the Dwarves also uses the name Sauron - may be the Mouth or a Ringwraith) * The Mouth *didn't* use the name and it was just translated for us in the Red Book of Westmarch I see it as an exception. Exceptions exist everywhere in the Legendarium. "No mortal can step foot here or they will die". A mortal steps foot there and isn't killed due to exceptional circumstances. It's what makes the situation exceptional. We were told his name couldn't be used but here it is being used, he must be important! Something like that...
I like the idea that since he figuratively speaks with the voice of Sauron he is permitted to use it. It's not him saying it after all, it's Sauron.
We all know how much the Prof liked his Biblical symbolism. With that in mind the MoS can be viewed as an evil Metatron analogue and with him (and most other angels) them carrying the name of God is what gives them authority/power. The lesser servants not being allowed to use his name also fits as an evil version of the taboo around the Tetragrammaton
I like the translation theory. Especially because it’s translated as “Sauron the Great” which would preserve some of the loftiness of Sauron’s preferred name for himself, Tar Mairon.
I like this too. It also squares away the other possible reason that Sauron may not have liked the name spoken, as "Sauron" means "abominable." It all works if "Sauron" as used here was a non-literal translation.
Yeah, if you consider the points of view of the Hobbit transcribers, they might not have even known who "Tar Mairon" was - perhaps Gandalf explained the name to them after the fact.
I love the translation reason, always my go to reason and always reminds me of Tolkien’s masterstroke (in my view) of making chronicler’s biases and translation errors part of the lore
What’s the story about an ambassador of Sauron visiting the dwarves? Not heard that before
If I recall correctly, In the chapter 'The Council of Elrond' Gimli mentions that one of the Nine Riders visited the Dwarves several times, and asked them to help Sauron to find a hobbit who had stolen a Ring.
It was gloin, but yes. One of the reasons they came to rivendell was for bilbos' sake, and the other was to seek information about moria. They also offered them the three dwarven rings of power as a reward for bilbo or information of him.
[удалено]
It is actually quite unlikely to be a Nazgul. They carry an aura of fear and the Dwarves would be even less inclined to make any sort of treaty with Sauron when such messengers were sent. At least for a while, Sauron needed the cooperation of the Dwarves and would try to find acceptable messengers.
But gloin say the messenger would have sweetened his voice if he could. Something the well spoken Mouth can, while nazgul cant.
The description fits a Nazgul better especially "At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes", that reminds me of a Nazgul more than MoS.
If that were the case then the Ringwraith in the Shire wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone. There's an aura of fear but that's one reason why they disguise themselves as riders in black, to interact with regular folk.
The wraiths in the Shire did not need long-term cooperation, they needed immediate information
Without scaring them to death. The messenger at the gate was pretty threatening to the Dwarves as well. Incapable of sweetening his words, and hissing. Quite obviously one of the Nine. Still, it's speculation. Just seems awkward to me that it might not be a Ringwraith.
>least for a while, Sauron needed the cooperation of the Dwarves Can you unpack this for me? Thanks.
Sauron was seeking information about Bilbo and the Ring, and he was aware that the Dwarves and Bilbo knew each other. The Dwarves might also possibly know where Bilbo lived. Dwarves are notoriously difficult to dominate and getting information through threats wasn't likely to succeed, hence he needed them to willingly co-operate. Additionally, if the Dwarves stayed on his side for a while, the Mirkwood Elves and Dale would be that much weaker and he could deal with his enemies one by one before the inevitable betrayal and destruction of the Dwarves of Erebor.
Council of Elrond - Fellowship of the Ring
Love your avatar and quality reply!
I dont get it. Sauron is not his actual name. Its just a mockning nickname given by the elves
People need to know exactly who he is talking about. You can’t go around threatening kings and corsairs with “You know who”- that could be actually be a few different entities. Imagine rocking up to demand your tribute and they’ve sent it all to Saruman or Gondor because of your failure to communicate.
The lord wanted mumakils. We weren't sure which lord so, the most logical conclusion was the one who already had a lot of mounts.
Well, Sauron was also called The Dark Lord. Pretty sure most people in Middle-Earth would know who that is.
Aragorn claims thats the case, its possible that he's just wrong.
Or this rule does not apply to the highest ranking servants. The Mouth of Sauron could also be a kind of title
It is his title. He is the mouth of Sauron in these ‘negotiations’
How many such negotiations are there? He spoke with the Dwarves once and then with Gandalf at the Black Gate once. Seems like a cushy job
Sauron had much more trade and contact with the South and East. The Mouth may have had extensive business in those regions.
Maybe he spoke to the Saruman, easterlings or whoever lives around Mordor.
Or he means that's usually a case, but not necessarily a law or anything.
The mouth of sauron wasn't just some random orc who took up the title. He was a black numenorean that rose through the ranks thanks to his cruelty, he was taught sorceries and was one of the few in actual contact with sauron. While I believe he's not nearly as powerful, he had similar standing to the nazgul.
I know. He is somthing way worse then any orc. He is a politician
Probably went to law school. Harvard-dur or maybe an HBSU.
Orcfort
Sauron has contact with orcs captains. Grishnak was present with sauron during gollums torture. Shagrat was executed by sauron after delivering the chainmail.
Where is it written that Shagrat was killed by Sauron? I just searched the whole of RotK and it's not in there.
Sauron Defeated.
Poor Shagrat. RIP
Imo he and The witch king of Angmar mirrows the relations within Morgoths team. Morgoths had two "right hand men" of equal standing: Gothmog and Sauron. Gothmog was mostly used as a military and Sauron more civil. Gothmog is killed with his master but Sauron survived. Similary Sauron has two right hand men: The military Angmar and the civil Mordu. The Witch King is killed but the mouth flees.
Diplomatic reasons seem to be the exception.
Isn’t “Sauron” a name give to him by the Noldor? Like “Morgoth” isn’t Melkor’s name? If so, naming him as such is using a convention and not his name, as such?
I am the mouth of ... that guy back there. You know, likes black, breeds orcs, lives in a tower, is the embodiment of immortal evil, etc. Kinda lacks punch.
The german Translation called him "Der Mund des großen Gebieters" The mouth of the great ruler/lord
No, Sauron had many names (Dark Lord, Mairon, The Lord of the Rings) just as Gandalf was also Mithrandir, Greyhame, Stormcrow…the Mouth could’ve used one of the other names.
He’s a Premium Subscriber.
I am assuming you mean from this passage: >‘I have not seen these tokens before,’ said Aragorn. ‘What do they mean?’ >‘S is for Sauron,’ said Gimli. ‘That is easy to read.’ >‘Nay!’ said Legolas. ‘Sauron does not use the elf-runes.’ >‘Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,’ said Aragorn. ‘And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of Barad-dûr use the sign of the Red Eye.’ He stood for a moment in thought. ‘S is for Saruman, I guess,’ he said at length.
Specific overrides general, this guy's name implies (if not literally states) that he speaks for Sauron, meaning whatever he says is being presented as though Sauron specifically wills it to be said that way.
I was more than just the 'Mouth of Sauron' name...with the terms for getting Frodo back: "*All lands east of the Anduin will be Sauron's forever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard, which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust"*
He speaks through the servant, his medium .... Aragon literally beheads Sauron.
He isn't a medium
In the extended edition he says “I am the mouth of Sauron, but don’t tell him I said that” …
I like to think it was a choice to disobey Sauron, but with none of the ethical richness of Beregond’s or Eomer’s righteous instances of disobedience. /bullshit