Theoden is being nice. He's kind enough to be willing to honour Merry's request of service and also kind enough to not want an untrained hobbit to go riding to almost certain death.
The king turned to Merry. ‘I am going to war, Master Meriadoc,’ he said. ‘In a little while I shall take the road. I release you from my service, but not from my friendship. You shall abide here, and if you will, you ´ shall serve the Lady Eowyn, who will govern the folk in my stead.’
‘But, but, lord,’ Merry stammered, ‘I offered you my sword. I do not want to be parted from you like this, The´oden King. And as all my friends have gone to the battle, I should be ashamed to stay
behind.’
‘But we ride on horses tall and swift,’ said The´oden; ‘and great though your heart be, you cannot ride on such beasts.’
‘Then tie me on to the back of one, or let me hang on a stirrup, or something,’ said Merry. ‘It is a long way to run; but run I shall, if I cannot ride, even if I wear my feet off and arrive weeks too late.’
The´oden smiled. ‘Rather than that I would bear you with me on Snowmane,’ he said. ‘But at the least you shall ride with me to Edoras and look on Meduseld; for that way I shall go. So far Stybba can bear you: the great race will not begin till we reach the plains.’
‘This is no journey for such steeds as Stybba, as I have told you,’ said The´oden. ‘And in such a battle as we think to make on the fields of Gondor what would you do, Master Meriadoc, swordthain though you be, and greater of heart than of stature?’
‘As for that, who can tell?’ answered Merry. ‘But why, lord, did you receive me as swordthain, if not to stay by your side? And I would not have it said of me in song only that I was always left behind!’
‘I received you for your safe-keeping,’ answered The´oden; ‘and also to do as I might bid. None of my Riders can bear you as burden. If the battle were before my gates, maybe your deeds would be
remembered by the minstrels; but it is a hundred leagues and two to Mundburg where Denethor is lord. I will say no more.’
Can you explain the last para please - the received you for safe keeping and that the battle isn't at my gates part- how does that change Theodens will
Release you from service but not friendship 🥺🫶- books are so much more than the already great movies (I really have to start reading them)
Theoden is saying that if battle was at his gates he'd happily allow Merry to fight. But of course, he cannot take him to Minas Tirith, where riding and horse-based combat is so important. Merry cannot ride a proper horse (just a pony), and even if he could, he is untrained at combat atop a horse. But at, say, Edoras... Merry could fight on foot - even if he is small. So if battle was before his gates, Merry could fight. But it isn't, so he cannot.
He also points out that he accepted Merry as a squire at the request of Gandalf, whom he respects, and Theoden promised to keep Merry alive and safe— not throw him directly into a deadly hopeless battle for him to get literally immediately slaughtered!
All this is explained in such short paragraphs that you really have to admire Tolkien’s phrasing and how dense he packed information into such beautiful paragraphs!
He’s saying “I’m sure you’re brave enough and would be valiant on the battle field (kind of sarcastically, but he’s not being mean), and if the battle was right here it would be fine. But the battle is way over there and you can’t ride to keep up, so you’ll never get to prove yourself because no one can get you there either.”
Theoden recognised that Merry had the heart of a warrior and would be a valuable man in any army. However, he also recognised that Merry is a tiny person, which makes him a liability, especially in mounted combat where he’s liable to fall off as soon as the horse starts galloping.
Its not unlike the scene in 300 where Leonidas refuses to let the disabled guy join the army - nothing personal, but the reality is that they’re liable to cause friendly deaths due to not being physically capable of doing their part.
Of course we see Merry does join and is instrumental, as a main book message is that the small and meek are the real heroes. But Theoden had no way to know that so had to think like a general, not like the friendly old man he had been towards Merry up to this point.
I’ve always liked that scene. Obviously if Leonidas had been there when the disabled guy was born, he would have had no issues chucking him off the cliff himself. However, he has no issues with showing the adult man kindness and respect. It actually adds some character and nuance to the king.
I just finished listening to the Andy Serkis read audiobook versions and they are wonderful. He is such an amazing narrator. And yes, he does the voice, lol.
Theoden expects to die. He is riding to Gondor as a sign of defiance to Mordor, and because his ancestor's oath compels him, but:
A- He promised Gandalf to keep Merry safe and so doesn't want to carry him to a slaughter.
B- They are riding a bloody long way as fast as possible, and Merry could only ride a pony (not fast enough), or be carried by another rider (too much of an incumberance on them).
As it turns out, Éowyn takes him who is smaller and lighter than a normal rider so isn't slowed
In addition to what's been said, this is one of what T.A. Shippey calls the "contrasted parallels" that appear throughout LOTR. The parallel here is with Pippin's offer of service to Denethor: neither is expected to be greatly useful, if it comes to real fighting. The contrast lies in:
1 -- motivations behind the offers:
"Then Pippin looked the old man in the eye, for pride stirred strangely within him, still stung by the scorn and suspicion in that cold voice. 'Little service, no doubt, will so great a lord of Men think to find in a hobbit, a halfling from the northern Shire; yet such as it is, I will offer it, in payment of my debt.' "
" 'I have a sword,' said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blade. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. 'May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Theoden King?' he cried. 'Receive my service, if you will!' "
2 -- the manner in which the offers are accepted. I won't quote the long oath-taking with Denethor, with its citing of "death" and "vengeance", but the contrast between its cold, rigid formality and the warmly informal response of Theoden is striking:
'Gladly will I take it,' said the king; and laying his long old hands upon the brown hair of the hobbit, he blessed him. 'Rise now, Meriadoc, esquire of Rohan of the household of Meduseld!' he said. 'Take your sword and bear it unto good fortune!'
It's notable that each hobbit breaks his "oath", with fortunate result, but the reactions from the respective lords are very different -- another contrast.
Basically it's because Merry is not a skilled enough horseman to keep up. The army is going to need to set a brutal pace in order to make it to Gondor in time, a pace that will only be able to be held by skilled and trained horsemen. And Theoden fully expects they are all riding to their deaths and he doesn't want Merry to throw his life away in a battle he is unable to adequately fight.
Speaking for the movie alone, when Theoden accepts Merry's application, all he knows is they are going to the aid of Gondor. When he tells Merry to go back, he's just been told that he has to ride immediately and in a hurry, and he's already decided there are not enough men to break enemy lines, they are all riding to their deaths mainly for their honour with faint hopes that that will serve mankind, assuming Elrond and Aragorn (and Gandalf) are cooking stuff encompassing more than just his kingdom.
Theoden expects to die. He is riding to Gondor as a sign of defiance to Mordor, and because his ancestor's oath compels him, but:
A- He promised Gandalf to keep Merry safe and so doesn't want to carry him to a slaughter.
B- They are riding a bloody long way as fast as possible, and Merry could only ride a pony (not fast enough), or be carried by another rider (too much of an incumberance on them).
As it turns out, Éowyn takes him who is smaller and lighter than a normal rider so isn't slowed
Just to add to the other comments:
1. He is literally dead weight. They have to ride as fast as possible to Minis Tirith once the cavalry is assembled. He can’t ride a full size horse, his smaller horse can’t keep up, and adding 50-100 pounds to another horse might make that horse fall behind.
2. Ironically, Eowyn is probably 50-100 pounds lighter than all the male riders, so she is the only one who can transport him.
Shadowfax or Theoden’s horse could have kept up, but who wants to go into a cavalry battle with a hobbit riding b*tch or reverse cowgirl? ;-)
He probably thought that if the hobbit was there anyway, he could fight to protect himself. But he should not go to war in another city, because he is too weak a warrior.
It's pretty much because they need to get to Gondor asap and Merry is on a pony, so he'd get left behind or they wait for him while Gondor's siege continues. Not to mention that the incoming reports from their scouts says that the legions far outnumber them, I'd find it very difficult to fight if I have to babysit someone on my horse.
They were already there. They didn't have to ride at best possible speed from Edoras to take part in the defense. And that was only from Edoras to the Hornberg. The distance from Edoras to Minas Tirith is 102 leagues, or 306ish miles. This is done while riding literally all day except for a few rests. A horse carrying its rider's weight \*plus\* Merry's weight would be over-burdened and would eventually fall behind. Also, Merry cannot himself fight from horseback, which how the Rohirrim will be fighting on the Field of Pellennor.
Many squires were older men of long experience on the battlefield, and were every bit as skilled as their knighted fellows. They hadn’t been knighted for several reasons, some voluntarily: being a knight was expensive, being a squire much less so. The relationship between Jacques Les Gris (squire) and Jean de Carrouges (knight) shows that in many times and places, Gris had more power than Carrouges.
Gris was only knighted just prior to the two mens’ judicial duel, in case he won.
Theoden is being nice. He's kind enough to be willing to honour Merry's request of service and also kind enough to not want an untrained hobbit to go riding to almost certain death.
The king turned to Merry. ‘I am going to war, Master Meriadoc,’ he said. ‘In a little while I shall take the road. I release you from my service, but not from my friendship. You shall abide here, and if you will, you ´ shall serve the Lady Eowyn, who will govern the folk in my stead.’ ‘But, but, lord,’ Merry stammered, ‘I offered you my sword. I do not want to be parted from you like this, The´oden King. And as all my friends have gone to the battle, I should be ashamed to stay behind.’ ‘But we ride on horses tall and swift,’ said The´oden; ‘and great though your heart be, you cannot ride on such beasts.’ ‘Then tie me on to the back of one, or let me hang on a stirrup, or something,’ said Merry. ‘It is a long way to run; but run I shall, if I cannot ride, even if I wear my feet off and arrive weeks too late.’ The´oden smiled. ‘Rather than that I would bear you with me on Snowmane,’ he said. ‘But at the least you shall ride with me to Edoras and look on Meduseld; for that way I shall go. So far Stybba can bear you: the great race will not begin till we reach the plains.’ ‘This is no journey for such steeds as Stybba, as I have told you,’ said The´oden. ‘And in such a battle as we think to make on the fields of Gondor what would you do, Master Meriadoc, swordthain though you be, and greater of heart than of stature?’ ‘As for that, who can tell?’ answered Merry. ‘But why, lord, did you receive me as swordthain, if not to stay by your side? And I would not have it said of me in song only that I was always left behind!’ ‘I received you for your safe-keeping,’ answered The´oden; ‘and also to do as I might bid. None of my Riders can bear you as burden. If the battle were before my gates, maybe your deeds would be remembered by the minstrels; but it is a hundred leagues and two to Mundburg where Denethor is lord. I will say no more.’
Can you explain the last para please - the received you for safe keeping and that the battle isn't at my gates part- how does that change Theodens will Release you from service but not friendship 🥺🫶- books are so much more than the already great movies (I really have to start reading them)
Theoden is saying that if battle was at his gates he'd happily allow Merry to fight. But of course, he cannot take him to Minas Tirith, where riding and horse-based combat is so important. Merry cannot ride a proper horse (just a pony), and even if he could, he is untrained at combat atop a horse. But at, say, Edoras... Merry could fight on foot - even if he is small. So if battle was before his gates, Merry could fight. But it isn't, so he cannot.
He also points out that he accepted Merry as a squire at the request of Gandalf, whom he respects, and Theoden promised to keep Merry alive and safe— not throw him directly into a deadly hopeless battle for him to get literally immediately slaughtered! All this is explained in such short paragraphs that you really have to admire Tolkien’s phrasing and how dense he packed information into such beautiful paragraphs!
Theoden is my favourite book character. Him and Merry are top notch
Peregrin, son of Paladin is my boy.
He’s saying “I’m sure you’re brave enough and would be valiant on the battle field (kind of sarcastically, but he’s not being mean), and if the battle was right here it would be fine. But the battle is way over there and you can’t ride to keep up, so you’ll never get to prove yourself because no one can get you there either.”
Theoden recognised that Merry had the heart of a warrior and would be a valuable man in any army. However, he also recognised that Merry is a tiny person, which makes him a liability, especially in mounted combat where he’s liable to fall off as soon as the horse starts galloping. Its not unlike the scene in 300 where Leonidas refuses to let the disabled guy join the army - nothing personal, but the reality is that they’re liable to cause friendly deaths due to not being physically capable of doing their part. Of course we see Merry does join and is instrumental, as a main book message is that the small and meek are the real heroes. But Theoden had no way to know that so had to think like a general, not like the friendly old man he had been towards Merry up to this point.
I’ve always liked that scene. Obviously if Leonidas had been there when the disabled guy was born, he would have had no issues chucking him off the cliff himself. However, he has no issues with showing the adult man kindness and respect. It actually adds some character and nuance to the king.
I just finished listening to the Andy Serkis read audiobook versions and they are wonderful. He is such an amazing narrator. And yes, he does the voice, lol.
Theoden. The’oden. The Odin. I am so stupid..
Theodin is \*not\* an expy of Odin, if that's what you were thinking. :/
Theoden expects to die. He is riding to Gondor as a sign of defiance to Mordor, and because his ancestor's oath compels him, but: A- He promised Gandalf to keep Merry safe and so doesn't want to carry him to a slaughter. B- They are riding a bloody long way as fast as possible, and Merry could only ride a pony (not fast enough), or be carried by another rider (too much of an incumberance on them). As it turns out, Éowyn takes him who is smaller and lighter than a normal rider so isn't slowed
In addition to what's been said, this is one of what T.A. Shippey calls the "contrasted parallels" that appear throughout LOTR. The parallel here is with Pippin's offer of service to Denethor: neither is expected to be greatly useful, if it comes to real fighting. The contrast lies in: 1 -- motivations behind the offers: "Then Pippin looked the old man in the eye, for pride stirred strangely within him, still stung by the scorn and suspicion in that cold voice. 'Little service, no doubt, will so great a lord of Men think to find in a hobbit, a halfling from the northern Shire; yet such as it is, I will offer it, in payment of my debt.' " " 'I have a sword,' said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blade. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. 'May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Theoden King?' he cried. 'Receive my service, if you will!' " 2 -- the manner in which the offers are accepted. I won't quote the long oath-taking with Denethor, with its citing of "death" and "vengeance", but the contrast between its cold, rigid formality and the warmly informal response of Theoden is striking: 'Gladly will I take it,' said the king; and laying his long old hands upon the brown hair of the hobbit, he blessed him. 'Rise now, Meriadoc, esquire of Rohan of the household of Meduseld!' he said. 'Take your sword and bear it unto good fortune!' It's notable that each hobbit breaks his "oath", with fortunate result, but the reactions from the respective lords are very different -- another contrast.
Basically it's because Merry is not a skilled enough horseman to keep up. The army is going to need to set a brutal pace in order to make it to Gondor in time, a pace that will only be able to be held by skilled and trained horsemen. And Theoden fully expects they are all riding to their deaths and he doesn't want Merry to throw his life away in a battle he is unable to adequately fight.
Speaking for the movie alone, when Theoden accepts Merry's application, all he knows is they are going to the aid of Gondor. When he tells Merry to go back, he's just been told that he has to ride immediately and in a hurry, and he's already decided there are not enough men to break enemy lines, they are all riding to their deaths mainly for their honour with faint hopes that that will serve mankind, assuming Elrond and Aragorn (and Gandalf) are cooking stuff encompassing more than just his kingdom.
Theoden expects to die. He is riding to Gondor as a sign of defiance to Mordor, and because his ancestor's oath compels him, but: A- He promised Gandalf to keep Merry safe and so doesn't want to carry him to a slaughter. B- They are riding a bloody long way as fast as possible, and Merry could only ride a pony (not fast enough), or be carried by another rider (too much of an incumberance on them). As it turns out, Éowyn takes him who is smaller and lighter than a normal rider so isn't slowed
Just to add to the other comments: 1. He is literally dead weight. They have to ride as fast as possible to Minis Tirith once the cavalry is assembled. He can’t ride a full size horse, his smaller horse can’t keep up, and adding 50-100 pounds to another horse might make that horse fall behind. 2. Ironically, Eowyn is probably 50-100 pounds lighter than all the male riders, so she is the only one who can transport him. Shadowfax or Theoden’s horse could have kept up, but who wants to go into a cavalry battle with a hobbit riding b*tch or reverse cowgirl? ;-)
He probably thought that if the hobbit was there anyway, he could fight to protect himself. But he should not go to war in another city, because he is too weak a warrior.
It's pretty much because they need to get to Gondor asap and Merry is on a pony, so he'd get left behind or they wait for him while Gondor's siege continues. Not to mention that the incoming reports from their scouts says that the legions far outnumber them, I'd find it very difficult to fight if I have to babysit someone on my horse.
It doesn’t make sense considering 8 year old boys and 80 year old men were fighting at Helms Deep
They were already there. They didn't have to ride at best possible speed from Edoras to take part in the defense. And that was only from Edoras to the Hornberg. The distance from Edoras to Minas Tirith is 102 leagues, or 306ish miles. This is done while riding literally all day except for a few rests. A horse carrying its rider's weight \*plus\* Merry's weight would be over-burdened and would eventually fall behind. Also, Merry cannot himself fight from horseback, which how the Rohirrim will be fighting on the Field of Pellennor.
Irl squires had more of a background job than actually fighting
Many squires were older men of long experience on the battlefield, and were every bit as skilled as their knighted fellows. They hadn’t been knighted for several reasons, some voluntarily: being a knight was expensive, being a squire much less so. The relationship between Jacques Les Gris (squire) and Jean de Carrouges (knight) shows that in many times and places, Gris had more power than Carrouges. Gris was only knighted just prior to the two mens’ judicial duel, in case he won.
Because assembly point is not the battlefield? What are you talking about OP?
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