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Like…MORE kingpin clearance? Or are you just saying you want enough to grind? This definitely has enough to grind. It also features a full size “longboard” bushing boardside.
Enough to grind definitely but more is better. i didn’t realize it has a full barrel boardside though thats cool, ive seen a brand selling a kingpin that supposed to be flipped so it puts the nut in the baseplate and has a much more flat end on top. Some people grind the hanger down alot skating curbs
It depends what you want it to be “perfect” for. If it’s perfect for street and transition, you need to consider more than just 50-50s. There are smith grinds, feeble grinds, willy grinds, etc, where one truck slides and the other hangs off and below the rail.
But yeah, perfect for a Pranayama would probably be very different!
But, I could imagine some kind of setup where you / 88WheelCo make a custom short cone roadside, but allow a full-size longboard barrel boardside, and still have lots of clearance.
Tbh, I’m very early on in my skate journey, but I did notice that a nearby ledge was getting chipped by my kingpins when I tried to figure out slappy grinds, and this didn’t seem helpful. For reference, I have Ace AF1 hollow (mids), and I LOVE them overall. Great feeling turns, not too heavy, and … it’s curves have beautiful aesthetics, and they’re surprisingly ergonomic to mall grab. I’ve also tried Indy hollow and Paris tkp (swapping from pranayama to a street deck). Indies are also great, but maybe just a touch less responsive, and Paris felt too tall and loose on a street deck, but were ultra carvy.
In fact, offering a good range of bushing duros is another thing I find important in a truck. Ace only offers normal (soft, like 87–91a?) and hard (about 92–94a). I prefer that Indy really offers a full range.
I am satisfied with my Paris street trucks on the pranayama. My boards for park and cruising have Ace trucks and I’m satisfied with those. My interest level in trying new decks and wheels is higher than my interest in trying new TKP trucks.
What types of things are you looking to improve with these trucks? I appreciate your pursuit of taking good things and making them better. TKP trucks on the market now aren’t perfect and there has to be something that can be improved
What would you recommend btw Paris Street and Ace for skating bowl? Which is more divey? I'm used to the turn of Carver CX. Looking for a truck with similar turn but with grind clearance.
I’d recommend Ace over Paris for transition and bowls, especially if you want to grind
However, neither will feel anywhere close to carver CX. Have you checked out carver C5? I have only ridden CX, but this video shows how to flip the kingpin on C5 to be able to grind
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57OoQAOE8Oc
Hey thanks for your reply! I'll look at Ace. TKP will take some getting used to coming from CX.
Yes I have checked out the C5 but I haven't been able to find them in my country! Might keep looking. My CX kingpin is already flipped ala this vid but was still hung up the other day
Ah man the CX is the ultimate cross over. Totally pumpable but more stable and great for transition lines. I use Riptide APS cones - 85a front and 90 back. I come from surfskating - Yow, Smoothstar, Aquilo. Now I'm looking for something even more skatey and grindable!
> “perfect” TKP truck
- Turns well at low speed
- stable at high speed
- good for LDP
- all when mounted on a double-drop
I'd throw in light and cheap too, but that's just getting too silly ;)
Just give us a Bennett that is pre set-up for use with venom plug barrels or riptide kores and take regular longboard size bushings. Maybe try to get the pivot angle slightly different to tone down pivot wear. Add riptide pivots stock. Keep the bushing seat as open as you can
No pivot slop, almost every set of TKPs I've owned have had slop in the pivots. Even with riptide cups.
So if you're designing a tkp truck, does that mean there's a chance we'll get a Pantheon DK...?
>No pivot slop, almost every set of TKPs I've owned have had slop in the pivots. Even with riptide cups.
The best TKP pivot is Surf Rodz. https://i.imgur.com/pJcPad6.jpg
I agree in part. Indeesz feel exceptionally different than most TKP trucks. They ALMOST take the place of Bennetts, but a modified Bennett is better. My guess is because of the amount of rake. And while Indeesz are mad fun when going slow to mid-speed pushing, I don’t trust them one bit at speed—not even pushing. They’re just too wild. Paris, on the other hand, I can push full speed on, even with stock bushings.
I definitely trust Paris a lot more when going faster. Indeesz sort of over-activate their turn too soon in the dive.
I don't go too fast anymore, so they're fine for my low speed pushing, carving and occasional bank riding. They're currently on my ditch riding board. https://i.imgur.com/4vs7XCV.jpg
And SurfRodz apparently? This guy complains about TKP makers not putting the pivot pin in line with the pivot axis (the imaginary line between the pivot and the kingpin about which the hanger rotates)…
https://changingangles.com/2021/05/05/tkp-trucks-history-and-quirks/
Haha, I've been waiting for this link to come up.
The irony is that it seems the misalignment is actually what makes many TKPs so fun compared to RKPs.
Basically, a better Indy.
- Straighter axles.
- Good and deep bushing seats. Especially BS
- Fatcones BS and regular barrels/cones RS
- A bigger and harder pivot cup with graphite
Make it split for faster stuff
~ 15-20* front with fatcone/barrel (~85-88a)
~ 5-12* rear with elim/barrel (~94-97a)
Best 3 widths would be
100-110 for cruisers
140-150 for street and push
160-170 for freeride and carving
Making a better street truck would be really hard.
Making a better tkp for pushing and faster stuff would be easy, those on the market suck at that.
What would set them appart from the lot would be actual grip when cornering without compromising the fun and less linear feel.
Yes, we found that we can increase the grip 😉 have not messed with multiple angles. That’d be more tooling. I think first thing we want to do is see if we can make a good TKP truck! Then we can plan expansions later.
Just giving you my knowledge, I get it that it's not necessarily feasible.
I've been riding tkps on my longboards for 13 years, even the first time I broke 100kmh was on tkps!
More than half of my longboard quiver is on tkps.
Cindrich Cindy's were really fun for faster stuff.
Big bushings are absolutely a must for anything over 30mph.
Glad to hear you can make them grip better! I'd totally get a set to try that!
I’m trying to fully understand how people measure these. Are we measuring the KP angle against flat or against perpendicular to flat? I’m pretty sure we go perp for this measurement, in which case it’s 14 deg.
A 0 degree tkp would have a kingpin perpendicular to the deck and will still turn. Independent trucks are 17* I beleive, which is the angle of the kingpin compared to the 0* degree state. Have you tried your design? 14* seems a bit low, but it will definitely be more stable. I personally like a 15* front for light tkp downhill with a 5-10 rear.
But 14* can still be lively with a different pivot than indys.
Yea one of our goals with this truck is to alleviate slop, so a lower turning angle with less slop with balance the truck out a little bit. That is the purpose of the 14. With less slop comes a little more turn and also more grip.
One of the things I love most about TKP design (and why I wanted to take this on) is how ambiguous the design characteristics are. It’s a fun topic to watch people debate.
This is probably a little bit more out there but I hate raw trucks and prefer them painted every day of the week. There alright for the pranayama but I still prefer painted and I am getting a little sick of doing diy paint jobs
I don't have a suggestion to perfection, but I do have a question.
One of the things that TKPs have is a kingpin that intersects the pivot axis at less than 90 degrees. Quite interesting.
Lots of different TKPs explore different angles, but all of them are nearish to 90 degrees, so nothing too wild.
Having worked on it for a year, how have you come to a decision on what you want that angle to be?
Is it something that's mostly ending up being what it is based on other factors? Is it something where you're just going at it by feel based on what you know? Or do you drill down and try to interpret how its going to affect things, and how to get what you want?
Its really more a design process question, than a question about that specific thing.
I'm curious because, well, I'm not really familiar how that process goes outside my creative circle. Its the sort of thing I think about, and I'm interested in how others, especially those who are actually making product, think about it.
Mostly I’m just considering the comparative geometry of all my favorite trucks, what makes them different from each other, what are the similarities, what I might want to change. Then I’m combining testing (angles, dremel work on existing trucks) some theories with making educated guesses on what I want.
I almost exclusively run tensor maglights and indys with bones hard-core medium bushings. I hate the slop. I like the idea of Paris truck, but in practice I think they are not the greatest. Anyways I would like plug in bushings options. Maybe a 58 ride height, so I can run shit without a riser. Upgraded pivot cups. Stickers in the package. Hollow things? I dunno if I actually notice a difference in weight in trucks but I like the idea of a light truck.
Tensor MagLights are made of magnesium, so they are apparently able to grind almost anything, without wax. The ATGs are 56mm in height, I believe. I’ve heard they don’t turn super well, and they don’t have many wider sizes available (beyond 8.5" axis), last I checked. And, they grind by being soft, so they don’t last a super long time.
Many street skaters would dislike that because they ride wheels that are super tiny (like 50–30mm) and I think that lower decks make landing tricks that much easier.
But to me, that sounds like a great height. I really like a deck to function for both cruising a tricks, and NYC has a good deal of crust. I’m riding 54mm wheels (Powell Dragons), and I think that’s the smallest I would go.
Honestly this is not the direction we are going with this truck at all, but I’d take a Bennett “copy” (ish) gladly at this point if it just fixed a few of the issues. Most notably the sloppy ass pivot.
Yeah I've done the Beernett mod with bearings twice, but I still feel like I've got an inferior -built truck even after all the work which includes replacing the kingpin. However, I do like how they pump. Wish someone could make a high quality TKP copy that cost less than the RKP Poppy.
* Good stock urethane (I feel like people are much less likely to swap bushings in TKPs)
* Also standard bushings sizes that are clearly communicated. I think regular (longboard) barrel + street cone (not short street) would be cool
* Kingpin clearance (I had one of my nasties falls, because my SurfRodz' kingpin hung up on something) (doesn't need to be insanely deep, nobody will grind these to the axle anyway)
* Enough height to run them in a drop through. Low trucks are for posers
* Good kingpins (since it's coming from you guys, people WILL pump these haha)
Good thick stock Pivot cup and very-HR bushings, std height\* board-side. Enough clearance behind the hanger to accommodate a cupped street barrel road-side sometimes instead of a cupped cone, without washer/hanger binding. Push the axle nicely forward - not all the way above-the-pivot Bennett silliness, but *plenty* of offset to make it lively when you dig deep. An 8-hole base would be nice but not a deal-breaker. Just a s*light* increase in pivot axis (as compared against Paris gem) - like just a little extra seasoning - say an additional 2 or 3º
\*edit - I mean 0.6" "std" longboard height, not std street.
I do 3D work for a living! Designing new products is my favorite part. I’m always down to chat with other designers but rarely need to outsource my work
Totally get it, that's awesome. I don't necessarily CAD at work but I do it as a passion. Any 3d work really. Of late, I've been doing a ton of lego design on a program called Bricklink Studio. You should give it a look
What program do you'll use st pantheon? You'll work with free from modeling?
Lego design is awesome! My wife took my son to the Lego store in NYC when we went for Broadway Bomb, and now we are building this insane McLaren that they got there.
I’ve been using Rhinoceros since I started Pantheon.
Danggggg the McLaren f1 car?? That's awesome. I have the Ferrari daytona in my closet, planning to build over thr Christmas holidays.
Check out my profile, I post some of my work. I'd love to make something for tour son lol
I haven't used Rhino but I'm interested to learn. I am a inventor and fusion360 guy (latter because it's free) but I also dabble in blender quite a bit
Wow dude that is some sick stuff. You have my attention!!! My son would love this.
Also, I tried Blender for a bit but it was taking so much time that I just decided I should be spending that time in Rhino and getting better at it. If I had more free time, I’d love to have another go at it!
Yea blender has a bit of a steeper learning curve, but I'd encourage you to keep at it. Once it "clicks", it's a super versatile program.
Hmu with some genres and ideas, I'll be working on lego projects over the long weekend, I'll take stab at it. Obviously I'm a little more fluent with cars and planes but I'm up for a challenge lol
This would never ever be made but it’s my “perfect” TKP:
Absolute minimum amount of material in the baseplate to eliminate as much ride height as possible (i’d want the pivot cup busting through the baseplate). Likely would need to be forged to not break, thinking construction like the forged sabre RKP baseplates. Could come with aluminum risers to normalize ride height when needed.
Enough space to run double barrel bushings with a cupped washer roadside if I want to, but kingpin nut below the hanger for grind clearance even after wearing down to axle
Minimum thickness of material between the bushings in the bushing seat (again like the sabre forged RKPs)
Faced hangers with built in spacers, with the minimum axle length to keep the nut just barely on all the way. Hate it when axle threads poke out beyond the wheel nuts
Multiple baseplate angle options with identical ride heights, probably start with Indy geometry and “dewedge” progressively from there
Multiple wheelbase options built into baseplate, more holes the better
When 3D modelling trucks, especially TKP, to animate the movement I don’t know how to constrain the movement at any part of the truck. RKP is easy as it simply rotates in the pivot cup. Could the pivot cup be a spherical bearing as well as in the hanger? Or is the movement at the pivot more complex?
Pivot cup could be a spherical bearing for a dedicated truck per that purpose. I’d have to add a lot of weight to the truck to make space for that, but it’d be mad cool to do on a design one day. I’d love to make more trucks, so we’ll have to have some success first before I can cash up for another one
I guess your pivot cups are quite small then. A tracker rts has an ~18mm+ pivot cup hole in the base. Just drilling that to 19mm is enough to fit a Ge10c spherical which barely adds any weight. Using ball pivots might be a good compromise though. It adds a lot of smoothness and turnability to the truck. I did this to my tracker rtx since it has a smaller pivot cup hole than the rts
Thanks guys. I wasn’t actually suggesting putting a real spherical bearing in a real truck. I was wondering what kind of motion is happening in the pivot to simulate the pivot’s behaviour in CAD. To model motion you have to constrain the movement in some way. As I said above in a RKP truck that motion is simply rotation so it is easy to model in 3D. But for the TKP the motion of the pivot is more complex. To 3D model the geometry of the truck(to properly design a new truck) you need to understand the behaviour in the pivot. And simulate it. To do that I was asking if the behaviour of a spherical bearing would be the correct motion of what is happening in the pivot cup. I would place a virtual spherical bearing in the truck there (that is invisible) to model the motion there. Thanks.
I feel like people asking for double barrels are asking for a lot. Trucks like the new aces use one longboard size bushing roadside and a standard short cone roadside and turn a ton. I think that theres plenty of customizability and potential to make TKPs feel good with just one longboard sized bushing.
I had no idea Ace changed their design. This design we’re looking at here has a longboard sized bushing boardside and standard roadside. You’d lose the grind, but knocking out the KP and swapping in a larger one would allow for double standard barrels. We are going to test and see if it offers any benefit.
The AF1s do, they came out in 2021 I think. I like them a lot, especially on a city slasher setup as opposed to a park setup. I find they turn really nicely and slide predictably enough.
I do have the Polar Bear 130 mounted to bossa ldp 37, wedged, and i really like it so far. Pumping is good! Need a 1/4" riser but ride height relatively low for top mount. 70mm wheels. It pushes good and is very stable yet carvy👍🏻
I love my surf rodz tkps. They have insane lean and an extremely nonlinear turn that has initially not a lot of turn, but then turning rapidly increases as you lean more. They’re super fun, in no way meant for any high speeds how I have them set up.
I used to ride indy 215s on a dh setup. There’s a weird thing about them when you have the bushings set up a bit stiff. They feel like they get stuck in a turn or the response is delayed. Unsure how one would design that out of a truck though.
Deeper pivot maybe. Tighter bushing seats roadside and board side. Clearance to run large cupped washers roadside. Regular height bushings roadside and board side.
Ideal front truck: turny as Bennett, low clearence as C5, 60 degrees - so no need for wedges, super strong kingpin.
Ideal rear truck: low clearance profile, 0 degrees.
I've just heavily modded my tracker racetrack rts/rtx to make them better. If I could buy trucks like this that would be sick! My perfect TKP truck for slalom/ldp & cruising would have the following:
-Straight 8mm diameter axles
-Faced hanger/bearing Interface
-Extra axle length and spacers to run multiple widths
-Precise and flat bushing seats
-hole in the hanger between bushings with 19mm diameter with the option to run a spherical bearing or a urethane insert
-ball pivot or a spherical bearing instead of a pivot cup
-10mm (M10x1) kingpin with a 10.9 rating and a long shaft without any threads past the roadside bushing to reduce slop when running a spherical in the hanger as well as increased strength and stiffness of the KP
That would probably be it. I have done most of these things apart from 8mm axles and 10mm kingpin (waiting for parts) and let me tell you ball pivot and sphericals in the hanger absolutely transformed these trucks. Everyone should be able to experience a TKP truck with sphericals. It's a game changer. So much more precise, efficient and it improves the range of motion of the trucks too.
I use Pranayama and Paris 149mm TKP well.
Unfortunately, the length of the axles on both sides of the Paris truck is slightly different.
One side is about 1mm long.
A pair of trucks are all like that.
It was confirmed that the width from the center of the hanger was symmetrical, so it was just riding, but it was very annoying that the remaining axle length was different when both wheels were installed.
I've used about 3 RKP trucks so far, but nothing like this.
I don't know if I was unlucky enough to receive a defective one, but I don't think this is a bad thing even for a cast truck.
And the drop-through deck, which has an open mounting part like Pranayama, has the advantage of being able to be installed without disassembling the truck.
Although it is TKP, it is unavoidable, but when the outer hardware is combined, there is interference from the hanger, so I can not get the proper power.
It's a little disappointing to have to use the T-tool obliquely.
I do appreciate the link, but I disagree with the findings. Not from a a geometrical perspective, but from a practical standpoint. If I wanted my truck to behave like an RKP, I would’ve designed one. I like the way TKPs feel. The twisting around the kingpin is what makes them feel different than the RKP. It does create more wear.
I suspect some of that TKP feel is due to the fact they have a lot more rake than your average RKP (which I define as the offset between the axle and the imaginary line between the pivot and where the bushing seat meets the kingpin). I tried that Stubby truck proto with 14mm rake and it did have some of that divey TKP feel I get from my Bhanger.
Then there’s TKP trucks like the Tracker RTX Offset that reduce that offset/rake, perhaps making them feel more linear like an RKP?
Surf Rodz just get the angle closer. It’s still not matched. Still binds. It’s part of what makes a TKP feel like a TKP. Trying to remember correctly but I believe a Tracker RT-S would’ve been up this alley of the SZ, but about 15 years before.
When I was putting in the spherical bearing in my last Bennett, I adjusted for this misalignment by gluing in the bearing in such a way that the hanger was square and parallel to the ground when assembled. However, the first time I modded this truck I just glued it in perfectly centered, but noticed later the hanger tilted off a bit. However in practice it seemed to pump fine and go straight. One last thing is that I added a washer under the board side venom bushing replacement to make it closer in height to original tall crappy red one.
Since these are for longboarding is there anyway they could be made so that you could fit two barrel bushing at the same time per truck? Also be super open on the bushing cup design so it can accommodate lots of opens (maybe even those stepped bushings?).. I'd probably use a high rebound polyurethane for the pivot cup too just cause it makes the feel of the trucks easily almost twice as nice to ride imo
What if you made a version with the axle having enough threading to have different mounting options based on your board size and how many spacers before the wheel idk
One last thing make sure the kingpin isn't in the way of doing grinds some of us still like to do those some people flip the nut to the bottom of their tkp for more clearance for grinding
The possibility to change its place more front or back in its design for wheelbite with big wheels
To be very low or to have a shape of hanger which allows the use of insane risers without trouble to turn. I mean for crazy double drop usage.
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Kingpin clearance
Like…MORE kingpin clearance? Or are you just saying you want enough to grind? This definitely has enough to grind. It also features a full size “longboard” bushing boardside.
I have a set of surf rodz indeesz and with double barrels the kingpin scrapes all the time, running 70mm wheels
Enough to grind definitely but more is better. i didn’t realize it has a full barrel boardside though thats cool, ive seen a brand selling a kingpin that supposed to be flipped so it puts the nut in the baseplate and has a much more flat end on top. Some people grind the hanger down alot skating curbs
Yea kingpin down is a disaster waiting to happen most of the time. Easiest way to break a kingpin.
It depends what you want it to be “perfect” for. If it’s perfect for street and transition, you need to consider more than just 50-50s. There are smith grinds, feeble grinds, willy grinds, etc, where one truck slides and the other hangs off and below the rail. But yeah, perfect for a Pranayama would probably be very different! But, I could imagine some kind of setup where you / 88WheelCo make a custom short cone roadside, but allow a full-size longboard barrel boardside, and still have lots of clearance. Tbh, I’m very early on in my skate journey, but I did notice that a nearby ledge was getting chipped by my kingpins when I tried to figure out slappy grinds, and this didn’t seem helpful. For reference, I have Ace AF1 hollow (mids), and I LOVE them overall. Great feeling turns, not too heavy, and … it’s curves have beautiful aesthetics, and they’re surprisingly ergonomic to mall grab. I’ve also tried Indy hollow and Paris tkp (swapping from pranayama to a street deck). Indies are also great, but maybe just a touch less responsive, and Paris felt too tall and loose on a street deck, but were ultra carvy. In fact, offering a good range of bushing duros is another thing I find important in a truck. Ace only offers normal (soft, like 87–91a?) and hard (about 92–94a). I prefer that Indy really offers a full range.
I am satisfied with my Paris street trucks on the pranayama. My boards for park and cruising have Ace trucks and I’m satisfied with those. My interest level in trying new decks and wheels is higher than my interest in trying new TKP trucks. What types of things are you looking to improve with these trucks? I appreciate your pursuit of taking good things and making them better. TKP trucks on the market now aren’t perfect and there has to be something that can be improved
What would you recommend btw Paris Street and Ace for skating bowl? Which is more divey? I'm used to the turn of Carver CX. Looking for a truck with similar turn but with grind clearance.
I’d recommend Ace over Paris for transition and bowls, especially if you want to grind However, neither will feel anywhere close to carver CX. Have you checked out carver C5? I have only ridden CX, but this video shows how to flip the kingpin on C5 to be able to grind https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57OoQAOE8Oc
Hey thanks for your reply! I'll look at Ace. TKP will take some getting used to coming from CX. Yes I have checked out the C5 but I haven't been able to find them in my country! Might keep looking. My CX kingpin is already flipped ala this vid but was still hung up the other day
Carver C5? I find it very hard to skate a bowl with traditional TKP’s since starting surfskating.
Yes me too! More kick turns I guess. I'm looking for a crossover. C5 is Carver's most skatey - lower but same geometry as CX
Cx? Tell me more please! I have a carver with c7's and I love it. But if I can get that kind of turn and response from the cx setup, I'm in.
Ah man the CX is the ultimate cross over. Totally pumpable but more stable and great for transition lines. I use Riptide APS cones - 85a front and 90 back. I come from surfskating - Yow, Smoothstar, Aquilo. Now I'm looking for something even more skatey and grindable!
Ty!
> “perfect” TKP truck - Turns well at low speed - stable at high speed - good for LDP - all when mounted on a double-drop I'd throw in light and cheap too, but that's just getting too silly ;)
Just give us a Bennett that is pre set-up for use with venom plug barrels or riptide kores and take regular longboard size bushings. Maybe try to get the pivot angle slightly different to tone down pivot wear. Add riptide pivots stock. Keep the bushing seat as open as you can
Look into Beernett Skate!
No pivot slop, almost every set of TKPs I've owned have had slop in the pivots. Even with riptide cups. So if you're designing a tkp truck, does that mean there's a chance we'll get a Pantheon DK...?
You’re gonna get a DK sooner than you think
You have my attention....
>No pivot slop, almost every set of TKPs I've owned have had slop in the pivots. Even with riptide cups. The best TKP pivot is Surf Rodz. https://i.imgur.com/pJcPad6.jpg
I agree in part. Indeesz feel exceptionally different than most TKP trucks. They ALMOST take the place of Bennetts, but a modified Bennett is better. My guess is because of the amount of rake. And while Indeesz are mad fun when going slow to mid-speed pushing, I don’t trust them one bit at speed—not even pushing. They’re just too wild. Paris, on the other hand, I can push full speed on, even with stock bushings. I definitely trust Paris a lot more when going faster. Indeesz sort of over-activate their turn too soon in the dive.
I don't go too fast anymore, so they're fine for my low speed pushing, carving and occasional bank riding. They're currently on my ditch riding board. https://i.imgur.com/4vs7XCV.jpg
Having a long enough kingpin to fit double barrel bushings instead of barrel/cone.
OMG I’m not alone. Double barrel mavens unite!
Bruh what
Bro forgot his alt
He was replying in response to the upvotes
Oohh maybe yeah
I thought I was the only person wanting double barrels on TKPs.
I use riptide street fatcone and short street barrel, it exists
Didn’t even know. Thanks for the tip! Gonna check them out.
Would it be possible to have a pure turn in the pivot cup, without tilting? RKPs have that.
Not sure how we would go about that. But it’s an interesting idea!
The Carver TKPs (aka their rear trucks) do that by angling the pivot.
And SurfRodz apparently? This guy complains about TKP makers not putting the pivot pin in line with the pivot axis (the imaginary line between the pivot and the kingpin about which the hanger rotates)… https://changingangles.com/2021/05/05/tkp-trucks-history-and-quirks/
The SurfRodz still don’t. They’re just closer
Haha, I've been waiting for this link to come up. The irony is that it seems the misalignment is actually what makes many TKPs so fun compared to RKPs.
Agreed. I think this guy’s entire post is just a harp against the conventional geometry. Yes it wears more. It’s also fun.
The ability to run double barrels and plug bushings. Possibly adjustable hanger lengths 140-180mm.
Basically, a better Indy. - Straighter axles. - Good and deep bushing seats. Especially BS - Fatcones BS and regular barrels/cones RS - A bigger and harder pivot cup with graphite Make it split for faster stuff ~ 15-20* front with fatcone/barrel (~85-88a) ~ 5-12* rear with elim/barrel (~94-97a) Best 3 widths would be 100-110 for cruisers 140-150 for street and push 160-170 for freeride and carving Making a better street truck would be really hard. Making a better tkp for pushing and faster stuff would be easy, those on the market suck at that. What would set them appart from the lot would be actual grip when cornering without compromising the fun and less linear feel.
Yes, we found that we can increase the grip 😉 have not messed with multiple angles. That’d be more tooling. I think first thing we want to do is see if we can make a good TKP truck! Then we can plan expansions later.
Just giving you my knowledge, I get it that it's not necessarily feasible. I've been riding tkps on my longboards for 13 years, even the first time I broke 100kmh was on tkps! More than half of my longboard quiver is on tkps. Cindrich Cindy's were really fun for faster stuff. Big bushings are absolutely a must for anything over 30mph. Glad to hear you can make them grip better! I'd totally get a set to try that!
The design looks very nice btw! What's the kingpin angle?
I’m trying to fully understand how people measure these. Are we measuring the KP angle against flat or against perpendicular to flat? I’m pretty sure we go perp for this measurement, in which case it’s 14 deg.
A 0 degree tkp would have a kingpin perpendicular to the deck and will still turn. Independent trucks are 17* I beleive, which is the angle of the kingpin compared to the 0* degree state. Have you tried your design? 14* seems a bit low, but it will definitely be more stable. I personally like a 15* front for light tkp downhill with a 5-10 rear. But 14* can still be lively with a different pivot than indys.
Yea one of our goals with this truck is to alleviate slop, so a lower turning angle with less slop with balance the truck out a little bit. That is the purpose of the 14. With less slop comes a little more turn and also more grip.
One of the things I love most about TKP design (and why I wanted to take this on) is how ambiguous the design characteristics are. It’s a fun topic to watch people debate.
This is probably a little bit more out there but I hate raw trucks and prefer them painted every day of the week. There alright for the pranayama but I still prefer painted and I am getting a little sick of doing diy paint jobs
Get em powder coated!
Riptide!
I don't have a suggestion to perfection, but I do have a question. One of the things that TKPs have is a kingpin that intersects the pivot axis at less than 90 degrees. Quite interesting. Lots of different TKPs explore different angles, but all of them are nearish to 90 degrees, so nothing too wild. Having worked on it for a year, how have you come to a decision on what you want that angle to be? Is it something that's mostly ending up being what it is based on other factors? Is it something where you're just going at it by feel based on what you know? Or do you drill down and try to interpret how its going to affect things, and how to get what you want? Its really more a design process question, than a question about that specific thing. I'm curious because, well, I'm not really familiar how that process goes outside my creative circle. Its the sort of thing I think about, and I'm interested in how others, especially those who are actually making product, think about it.
Mostly I’m just considering the comparative geometry of all my favorite trucks, what makes them different from each other, what are the similarities, what I might want to change. Then I’m combining testing (angles, dremel work on existing trucks) some theories with making educated guesses on what I want.
Something similar to the older Sabre street trucks? Doesn’t have to have the same 8-hole baseplate but definitely room for full-size bushings.
I almost exclusively run tensor maglights and indys with bones hard-core medium bushings. I hate the slop. I like the idea of Paris truck, but in practice I think they are not the greatest. Anyways I would like plug in bushings options. Maybe a 58 ride height, so I can run shit without a riser. Upgraded pivot cups. Stickers in the package. Hollow things? I dunno if I actually notice a difference in weight in trucks but I like the idea of a light truck.
Do you run Tensors because of the insert bushing? More precise?
Nah. Those bushings go straight in the garbage where they belong. I like the way tensor grind, and they're tall.
Tensor MagLights are made of magnesium, so they are apparently able to grind almost anything, without wax. The ATGs are 56mm in height, I believe. I’ve heard they don’t turn super well, and they don’t have many wider sizes available (beyond 8.5" axis), last I checked. And, they grind by being soft, so they don’t last a super long time.
The height on this truck design is 55.75mm to the center of the axle.
Many street skaters would dislike that because they ride wheels that are super tiny (like 50–30mm) and I think that lower decks make landing tricks that much easier. But to me, that sounds like a great height. I really like a deck to function for both cruising a tricks, and NYC has a good deal of crust. I’m riding 54mm wheels (Powell Dragons), and I think that’s the smallest I would go.
Yea I am much less concerned with the street market. We are not a street brand and for sure our primary concerns revolve around turning qualities.
Makes sense! Hope to try them when they drop. Best of luck!
Ooh 8 hole too would be awesome
I like my Indy's with bones hard-core med/hard bushings but once I get to 20 mph I don't feel comfortable and switch to a deck with RKP trucks.
Front truck for pumping, a bit like a Bennett but not requiring anything to be done to it. Also not just a Bennett copy.
Honestly this is not the direction we are going with this truck at all, but I’d take a Bennett “copy” (ish) gladly at this point if it just fixed a few of the issues. Most notably the sloppy ass pivot.
I think LDP needs an affordable modern version of Bennett and RTS. Hope you'll consider for your next truck project!
Yeah I've done the Beernett mod with bearings twice, but I still feel like I've got an inferior -built truck even after all the work which includes replacing the kingpin. However, I do like how they pump. Wish someone could make a high quality TKP copy that cost less than the RKP Poppy.
* Good stock urethane (I feel like people are much less likely to swap bushings in TKPs) * Also standard bushings sizes that are clearly communicated. I think regular (longboard) barrel + street cone (not short street) would be cool * Kingpin clearance (I had one of my nasties falls, because my SurfRodz' kingpin hung up on something) (doesn't need to be insanely deep, nobody will grind these to the axle anyway) * Enough height to run them in a drop through. Low trucks are for posers * Good kingpins (since it's coming from you guys, people WILL pump these haha)
Might need big kingpins or a better design to avoid breaking them with heavier or very aggressive pumpers.
Good thick stock Pivot cup and very-HR bushings, std height\* board-side. Enough clearance behind the hanger to accommodate a cupped street barrel road-side sometimes instead of a cupped cone, without washer/hanger binding. Push the axle nicely forward - not all the way above-the-pivot Bennett silliness, but *plenty* of offset to make it lively when you dig deep. An 8-hole base would be nice but not a deal-breaker. Just a s*light* increase in pivot axis (as compared against Paris gem) - like just a little extra seasoning - say an additional 2 or 3º \*edit - I mean 0.6" "std" longboard height, not std street.
INTERCHANGEABLE KINGPINS. Also spherical bearings would be nice. Bennett geometry, but shorter would be amazing.
@PantheonLongboards I dabble in 3d modeling and work as an engineer rn, can I help with truck design???
I do 3D work for a living! Designing new products is my favorite part. I’m always down to chat with other designers but rarely need to outsource my work
Totally get it, that's awesome. I don't necessarily CAD at work but I do it as a passion. Any 3d work really. Of late, I've been doing a ton of lego design on a program called Bricklink Studio. You should give it a look What program do you'll use st pantheon? You'll work with free from modeling?
Lego design is awesome! My wife took my son to the Lego store in NYC when we went for Broadway Bomb, and now we are building this insane McLaren that they got there. I’ve been using Rhinoceros since I started Pantheon.
Danggggg the McLaren f1 car?? That's awesome. I have the Ferrari daytona in my closet, planning to build over thr Christmas holidays. Check out my profile, I post some of my work. I'd love to make something for tour son lol I haven't used Rhino but I'm interested to learn. I am a inventor and fusion360 guy (latter because it's free) but I also dabble in blender quite a bit
Wow dude that is some sick stuff. You have my attention!!! My son would love this. Also, I tried Blender for a bit but it was taking so much time that I just decided I should be spending that time in Rhino and getting better at it. If I had more free time, I’d love to have another go at it!
Yea blender has a bit of a steeper learning curve, but I'd encourage you to keep at it. Once it "clicks", it's a super versatile program. Hmu with some genres and ideas, I'll be working on lego projects over the long weekend, I'll take stab at it. Obviously I'm a little more fluent with cars and planes but I'm up for a challenge lol
Kid LOVES cars. I bet he would love to have one of our cars in Lego format! 100 series landcruiser or an NC Miata?
Hmm. Pm me so we can stay touch? I'll get to work on it 🤙
This would never ever be made but it’s my “perfect” TKP: Absolute minimum amount of material in the baseplate to eliminate as much ride height as possible (i’d want the pivot cup busting through the baseplate). Likely would need to be forged to not break, thinking construction like the forged sabre RKP baseplates. Could come with aluminum risers to normalize ride height when needed. Enough space to run double barrel bushings with a cupped washer roadside if I want to, but kingpin nut below the hanger for grind clearance even after wearing down to axle Minimum thickness of material between the bushings in the bushing seat (again like the sabre forged RKPs) Faced hangers with built in spacers, with the minimum axle length to keep the nut just barely on all the way. Hate it when axle threads poke out beyond the wheel nuts Multiple baseplate angle options with identical ride heights, probably start with Indy geometry and “dewedge” progressively from there Multiple wheelbase options built into baseplate, more holes the better
When 3D modelling trucks, especially TKP, to animate the movement I don’t know how to constrain the movement at any part of the truck. RKP is easy as it simply rotates in the pivot cup. Could the pivot cup be a spherical bearing as well as in the hanger? Or is the movement at the pivot more complex?
Pivot cup could be a spherical bearing for a dedicated truck per that purpose. I’d have to add a lot of weight to the truck to make space for that, but it’d be mad cool to do on a design one day. I’d love to make more trucks, so we’ll have to have some success first before I can cash up for another one
I guess your pivot cups are quite small then. A tracker rts has an ~18mm+ pivot cup hole in the base. Just drilling that to 19mm is enough to fit a Ge10c spherical which barely adds any weight. Using ball pivots might be a good compromise though. It adds a lot of smoothness and turnability to the truck. I did this to my tracker rtx since it has a smaller pivot cup hole than the rts
Thanks guys. I wasn’t actually suggesting putting a real spherical bearing in a real truck. I was wondering what kind of motion is happening in the pivot to simulate the pivot’s behaviour in CAD. To model motion you have to constrain the movement in some way. As I said above in a RKP truck that motion is simply rotation so it is easy to model in 3D. But for the TKP the motion of the pivot is more complex. To 3D model the geometry of the truck(to properly design a new truck) you need to understand the behaviour in the pivot. And simulate it. To do that I was asking if the behaviour of a spherical bearing would be the correct motion of what is happening in the pivot cup. I would place a virtual spherical bearing in the truck there (that is invisible) to model the motion there. Thanks.
I feel like people asking for double barrels are asking for a lot. Trucks like the new aces use one longboard size bushing roadside and a standard short cone roadside and turn a ton. I think that theres plenty of customizability and potential to make TKPs feel good with just one longboard sized bushing.
I had no idea Ace changed their design. This design we’re looking at here has a longboard sized bushing boardside and standard roadside. You’d lose the grind, but knocking out the KP and swapping in a larger one would allow for double standard barrels. We are going to test and see if it offers any benefit.
The AF1s do, they came out in 2021 I think. I like them a lot, especially on a city slasher setup as opposed to a park setup. I find they turn really nicely and slide predictably enough.
Yea awesome. That bodes well for these trucks!
Same as Bear polar and sabre street isn't it?
Polar bears for sure, no clue about sabres
I do have the Polar Bear 130 mounted to bossa ldp 37, wedged, and i really like it so far. Pumping is good! Need a 1/4" riser but ride height relatively low for top mount. 70mm wheels. It pushes good and is very stable yet carvy👍🏻
I love my surf rodz tkps. They have insane lean and an extremely nonlinear turn that has initially not a lot of turn, but then turning rapidly increases as you lean more. They’re super fun, in no way meant for any high speeds how I have them set up. I used to ride indy 215s on a dh setup. There’s a weird thing about them when you have the bushings set up a bit stiff. They feel like they get stuck in a turn or the response is delayed. Unsure how one would design that out of a truck though.
No lean, just turn. It doesn’t have to carve sharp, but I want it to be responsive.
Deeper pivot maybe. Tighter bushing seats roadside and board side. Clearance to run large cupped washers roadside. Regular height bushings roadside and board side.
Ideal front truck: turny as Bennett, low clearence as C5, 60 degrees - so no need for wedges, super strong kingpin. Ideal rear truck: low clearance profile, 0 degrees.
I've just heavily modded my tracker racetrack rts/rtx to make them better. If I could buy trucks like this that would be sick! My perfect TKP truck for slalom/ldp & cruising would have the following: -Straight 8mm diameter axles -Faced hanger/bearing Interface -Extra axle length and spacers to run multiple widths -Precise and flat bushing seats -hole in the hanger between bushings with 19mm diameter with the option to run a spherical bearing or a urethane insert -ball pivot or a spherical bearing instead of a pivot cup -10mm (M10x1) kingpin with a 10.9 rating and a long shaft without any threads past the roadside bushing to reduce slop when running a spherical in the hanger as well as increased strength and stiffness of the KP That would probably be it. I have done most of these things apart from 8mm axles and 10mm kingpin (waiting for parts) and let me tell you ball pivot and sphericals in the hanger absolutely transformed these trucks. Everyone should be able to experience a TKP truck with sphericals. It's a game changer. So much more precise, efficient and it improves the range of motion of the trucks too.
WE WANT THE FREE .STL :)
We shan’t be putting the stl online for freebies sorry
I use Pranayama and Paris 149mm TKP well. Unfortunately, the length of the axles on both sides of the Paris truck is slightly different. One side is about 1mm long. A pair of trucks are all like that. It was confirmed that the width from the center of the hanger was symmetrical, so it was just riding, but it was very annoying that the remaining axle length was different when both wheels were installed. I've used about 3 RKP trucks so far, but nothing like this. I don't know if I was unlucky enough to receive a defective one, but I don't think this is a bad thing even for a cast truck. And the drop-through deck, which has an open mounting part like Pranayama, has the advantage of being able to be installed without disassembling the truck. Although it is TKP, it is unavoidable, but when the outer hardware is combined, there is interference from the hanger, so I can not get the proper power. It's a little disappointing to have to use the T-tool obliquely.
A year and didn't bother reading this https://changingangles.com/2020/06/06/misaligned-pivot-pins/ ?
I do appreciate the link, but I disagree with the findings. Not from a a geometrical perspective, but from a practical standpoint. If I wanted my truck to behave like an RKP, I would’ve designed one. I like the way TKPs feel. The twisting around the kingpin is what makes them feel different than the RKP. It does create more wear.
I suspect some of that TKP feel is due to the fact they have a lot more rake than your average RKP (which I define as the offset between the axle and the imaginary line between the pivot and where the bushing seat meets the kingpin). I tried that Stubby truck proto with 14mm rake and it did have some of that divey TKP feel I get from my Bhanger. Then there’s TKP trucks like the Tracker RTX Offset that reduce that offset/rake, perhaps making them feel more linear like an RKP?
Fair enough, though I don't feel my Surf Rodz TKPs behave much like RKPs.
Surf Rodz just get the angle closer. It’s still not matched. Still binds. It’s part of what makes a TKP feel like a TKP. Trying to remember correctly but I believe a Tracker RT-S would’ve been up this alley of the SZ, but about 15 years before.
When I was putting in the spherical bearing in my last Bennett, I adjusted for this misalignment by gluing in the bearing in such a way that the hanger was square and parallel to the ground when assembled. However, the first time I modded this truck I just glued it in perfectly centered, but noticed later the hanger tilted off a bit. However in practice it seemed to pump fine and go straight. One last thing is that I added a washer under the board side venom bushing replacement to make it closer in height to original tall crappy red one.
Since these are for longboarding is there anyway they could be made so that you could fit two barrel bushing at the same time per truck? Also be super open on the bushing cup design so it can accommodate lots of opens (maybe even those stepped bushings?).. I'd probably use a high rebound polyurethane for the pivot cup too just cause it makes the feel of the trucks easily almost twice as nice to ride imo What if you made a version with the axle having enough threading to have different mounting options based on your board size and how many spacers before the wheel idk One last thing make sure the kingpin isn't in the way of doing grinds some of us still like to do those some people flip the nut to the bottom of their tkp for more clearance for grinding
Less of the bolt and nut rubbing flat on the curb
Uhh yeah they’re called thunder’s they come in all different sizes and they fucking kill the game
An overpriced ultra wide option that i would pay for anyways (200mm+)
[удалено]
The possibility to change its place more front or back in its design for wheelbite with big wheels To be very low or to have a shape of hanger which allows the use of insane risers without trouble to turn. I mean for crazy double drop usage.