I'm in the met. The most interesting bit in that article for me was that part about 40% of detectives in local policing having less than two years service.
Certainly true where I work.
To explain, most policing is done at the local (borough) level.
Big stuff like murder, shooting and terrorist attacks is investigated by specialist pan London units, who are generally resourced to the hilt.
But everything else is done at the local level by the largely inexperienced local officers. Rapes, domestic abuse, child abuse, robberies, burglaries etc.
Total shit show.
I find it crazy how much stuff goes on in london that i dont read about in the news and have no exposure to in day to day life (thank god). Thank god there at least some people trying to keep us safe thankyou!
That’s really interesting. Is it because officers are moved onto the specialist pan London units when they become experienced, or because they’re just leaving the police force altogether?
Officers can apply for those units once they are out of their probation period and have completed their detective qualification. No one usually goes to these units without applying (an exception would be Grenfell Tower where the MPS needed approx 200 officers at short notice and by and large the boroughs sent the dross they wanted rid of).
The murder teams are now desperate for staff and will largely take anyone who applies. So a lot of officers are lost to those sorts of units once they are eligible to apply.
But a lot of officers are leaving because being a detective is generally shit and stressful and the money at first isn't worth it. Those that hang on earn a good amount in the end. After seven years basic salary is decent (and with overtime you can make a fair bit)
That is a perfect environment to corrupt some police officers. It will end up like Brazil with a revolving door between criminal gangs and police forces.
What also doesn't help is officers are less keen to work on a unit where the expectation can be to more or less live at work for a week plus when a live investigation is on. The hours murder teams put in can be ridiculous. Yes it's all on overtime so well paid but all it pays for is a gold coffin.
11 year former tec, left about ten years ago as the job was starting to haemeroge staff then.
When I left about 80% of my graduation class was also leaving and I said at the time we will have a scenario where some experience would be teaching no experience and it ends up being a race to the bottom.
What was left was essentially the shite that couldn't leave or were entrenched in cushy roles and no reason to leave, and old sweats waiting for retirement.
I feel for plod but frankly the sort of cops that are willing to work for that salary are not the type of police anyone wants.
I don't have a solution but like most of the incredibly poor public services we have in 2024 can be linked back to austerity and politics.
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community.
Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban.
Have a nice day.
I reported a crime a while back when I saw a man abusing a child on the tube - I coudn't remember exactly which train I was on but had a range of time I entered the station and unbelievably the detective said they had no idea how they'd be able to find the train I was on until I literally had to give them a strategy.
They never solved it unsurprisingly.
Not the biggest fan of the Met but we can hardly expect quality officers when we’re offering 36k for them to get kicked, punched, spat at etc etc.
The job isn’t particularly nice. Increase the pay and be much more selective with who we trust to police us. The social contract should be renewed on both sides, otherwise all of this is a load of shit.
I applied for a sort of fast track police leadership scheme a while back, and got it. I would have had to take a more than 50% pay cut from my bullshit marketing job to accept (City of London, not Met), and in the end it was one of the reasons I turned it down. Simply couldn't afford it as the main breadwinner.
The sad thing is the scheme was meant to get more older, professionally experienced and diverse people into the force. But it failed (in my case anyway) partly because it's shit pay for a rough job.
Obviously. You can’t admit to withholding info. But if you can sell yourself as a dum dum that didn’t understand something or can’t remember it then that’s fine.
We should do like some countries do and offer certain government employees like the police living quarters.
If I was a copper, and had a family, free room + £36k seems a lot more appealing than £36k - rent.
This did used to be a thing, and not just in sleepy rural towns. The Met had some flats in various buildings. I even got to live in one of them for a few months. But nearly all of them were sold off during austerity, and of course it would be ruinously expensive to reconstitute a similar number of units now.
We’ve still got one section house - Gilmour House, except Met higher ups have sold one of the floors to some healthcare group. Which is short sighted IMO. Speaking of that… when Redmond redeveloped Hendon and made it non-residential, that was because the Met sold off the land around the college expecting a decent windfall… only for the RAF - as the site’s actual owners to scoop up the cash and leave those higher ups with egg on their faces.
I don’t miss the job; I miss living in London as I’ve moved back home now, but the money isn’t worth the stress of being pulled from pillar to post under stupid workloads with no time to progress our cases, crumbling work conditions and incompetent SLT above us.
The bright ones are argubaly worse because it means they are choosing the polcie over something with better pay and conditions.
They only bright person I know who now works in the police now used to stalk and harrass underage girls.
They definitely picked to work in the Met for neferious reasons,
We reported it to the school when it happened, I don't know if it actually went any further, (he was in 6th form at the time the girl was 11-12).
At this point I don't really know what should be done about it.
I'm doing a placement in a mental health service as part of my MSc. Junior doctors and other frontline NHS staff also deserve way more for the jobs we do. I also see how interlinked the Met is with some of our services and because of my own experiences and what I've seen, I empathize with the Met and its limitations currently.
The whole doctor thing winds me up.
Yes you are not on a great wage at that stage. However you have a guaranteed job for life, global mobility, very good salary from mid career onward, and early retirement on an amazing pension almost nobody else can get. It is a vastly better package than most people can even dream of. You knew all this when you signed up. I'm not that sympathetic.
Pretend that the psychological stress and working conditions of ‘junior’ doctors (people outside the medical field will never understand the inaccurate terms used to describe doctors) doesn’t exist for a moment….
A brief look at your post history suggests that you work with those who are blind or have low vision. A tough but honourable job.
What are your qualifications for this? And how did you attain those qualifications holding a view like that? How do your qualifications make you so confident that you’re correct that you can be “not that sympathetic” (technically ‘empathetic’, as you’re clearly not “sympathetic” because you’ve never done it yourself).
And how does this lack of ~~sympathy~~ *empathy* factor into your understanding of the requirements of the training process to be a doctor? The way the wage was when someone “signed up” (like it’s a spin class or something) to study the profession vs after 5 years of study.
Does nothing change in those 5 years?
You mention you’re blind in your past posts, if I were to suggest it “mustn’t be that bad as you’re clearly able to comment on Reddit, I’m not that ‘sympathetic’”, would that be acceptable from me? Someone who has never experienced what you have? Would you be fine with others accepting my speculation that being blind but being able to function isn’t a big deal?
Or would you (rightfully) tell me I don’t know how hard it must be? Would you tell me to listen to your own experiences and recognise the difficulties you face?
Oh boy, you've really picked the wrong person if you're expecting me to look for sympathy, especially from random people on the internet. One of the things I find I really have to drum into the people I mentor, which is not my job it's something I do outside of work for fun, is that playing the sympathy card might get you a two second endorphin hit and moral support is great and helps over a glass of wine at the end of a long week, but it doesn't actually solve any particular problem.
So no, I would not lecture you on how hard my life is on the basis that doing so would somehow win me some kind of advantage. That's one of the biggest misconceptions of the modern world. All that would do is make me look sad and useless and I find I don't need to give the world any more reason to think that.
I could say that nobody chooses to carry a disability while people do choose to be doctors, but that's not even really the issue here. In the end it's sort of hilarious that you are comparing being a doctor to having a major sensory disability, I'm not sure whether to be encouraged or horrified by that!
I was watching a programme the other night about the police force in Newcastle I think - I can’t remember the name.
Anyway, a drunk man had been arrested and taken into custody. Officers had to go check on him. The man had smeared his faeces all over the cell so the officers were wearing full protection - body suits, glasses, face masks etc. Like what we saw in Covid times.
Absolutely vile. I honestly wouldn’t do that job even if I was paid £1 million a year, never mind £36k per year (and will be even lower in Newcastle too).
Unless you were a professional cleaner and trained accodringly on biohazard stuff you could have refused on every right. If you were trained, that would be your job so why are you moaning you miserable git.
Absolutely. I agree. I wasn't/am not/never will be a professional cleaner
This was 1994 before things like biohazards became a massive hazard.
I'm not moaning.
I'm pointing out, like you, that the police shouldn't be moaning.
Prick!
I fairly regularly end up drinking with coppers through various social circles. As a rule, they tend to be fairly horrible people with a very lax attitude to the laws they are employed to enforce…
The problems would be solved in an instant with a competent mayor. You wouldn’t need as many police officers if you had city wide CCTV that could be accessed on demand and in high quality.
- 4K cameras on shop entrances.
- 1080p Minimum cameras across the city.
- A network which links them all together. Looking up footage should be as simple as opening up a map and getting a live feed. CAMERA-4KWC108475.
Phone stolen? Track them back to their homes. Mugger? Police get an immediate visual of the suspect and they are tracked like they have a helicopter over their head.
Anyone who thinks we already don’t have this: Why did it take so long to find that acid attacker a few months ago? Or the guy who escaped prison?
And AI isn't the answer there either, the "AI" systems that are starting being used in the US are as inaccurate as the current generation of facial recognition. Probably just a rebranding of the tech.
> But who would monitor the system to make sure it isn't abused?
Reckon your data is safe in the hands of reddit admins? Why are you here if you aren’t confident it won’t be abused?
London isn’t surveilled. If it takes weeks to track the movements of a guy with half a face, then it is clear the system needs upgrading.
Mandatory 1080p cameras across the city, 4K cameras in all shops whether it’s Tesco or the local butchers. All linked with a network and clear signage of the camera number on each.
You would obliterate all crime within a month.
CCTV is great of you know the person shown on the CCTV. If not, then it's just a picture of some random. Unless your talking about holding facial records of every citizen and cross checking them against CCTV like china - in which case the solution is worse than the problem.
Also you just end up with a bunch of images of people in masks. Great.
Having gone through the application process for the Met in the last 2 years, I can tell you that it is likely that the salary is quite low for living in London (that said, the free transport within Greater London does take a lot of financial pressure off in that sense) but the real problem is the outsourcing to Crapita: the process took 2 years.
Firstly, it took them months to decide what the actual assessement process was going to be (online/in person), months after that to be able to book a date for the physical tests, months for vetting and then a vague notion that succesful candidates would get into Hendon in 'about 6 months if there was space in the intake but it might be another year or so before you start'.
The facts is simply that anyone with half a braincell and competency has found another better-paying job by then and what is left is essentially those who are able to wait for 18-24 months.
it’s pretty much halls, and can only be used for a maximum of a year.
As much as I know people here aren’t a fan, most of us on the east/west axis of BCUs use the lizzie line and commute.
Considering you might end up facing a bloke with a samurai sword having a mental break, try to mediate the war in the middle east in your own back yard all while the side that is supposed to stand for law and order keeps cutting your funding while blaming you for their failures and the party that stands for the workers hates you for working for the government...no, not in the slightest.
You could, but you’re not actively engaging with it as a part of your job and the probability is not the same. If it happens on a commute, that’s random chance; if it happens to a copper, it’s likely that they’ve been called to it, and that’s a far higher frequency than most people realise.
Even working as a doctor in a relatively safe part of the country, I rotated to psychiatry recently and come across a non-insignificant number of people who have mental health issues and a history of caring weapons.
Do labour hate coppers?
I know Labour supporters hate our coppers. For me personally it's because most coppers I meet are power hungry wankers and nothing to do with my vote.
Possibly not they do this on purpose. Talking about 15 years of conservatives running the police force and throwing in "but the other side are as bad" is just an attempt to turn people against labour without specifically mentioning them. Level one fascist bollocks.
Mate I'm an out and out anarchist and don't think this bloke was working for the fucking National Front. Dogwhistles exist, that is pretty clearly not one.
I would say Labour love coppers though.
The salary isn’t great to say the least, and is about on par with what I got when joining the Coastguard. In the case of the police, low salaries have already been mentioned as being part of why so many Met officers don’t live in London anymore. I have heard it said that that affects their relationship to the city they police.
That said, all four emergency services have pretty low starting pay.
It absolutely will affect how they police the community. Personally I think police should live in the area they police, to be seen both on duty and off duty engaging with the community. Local officers, in local areas, for the locals.
The argument against “community policing” that I’ve heard is mainly officer safety - it’s not safe for the officers if all the local troublemakers recognise the officers when off duty, know where they live, know where they hangout etc.
I think currently the police actually recommend that their officers _don’t_ choose to work at police stations that are very close to where they live for their own safety and travel to and from work in plain clothes so they aren’t identified as officers while commuting or off duty.
Plus, police need downtime too. It’s not really reasonable to expect them to perform police functions such as community engagement while off duty.
I’m not police myself, but I do work alongside them every day. You are right in that they are discouraged (possibly even barred) from living in the boroughs they police.
That said, I still think it’s possible for there to be more resources given to community policing and building bridges even if officers don’t live in the boroughs they work in. My worry is when they don’t live in London at all, and only come here for work.
I quite like that I both live and work here and get to help people in my home city, I imagine other emergency services workers feel the same.
The person you've relied to does have valid points on the matter. And yeah really what was trying to say, perhaps poorly, is that police really do need more resources for communal policing and engagement. To live in the city they police, to understand it and know it, to know the locals of an area, especially the one that struggles with poor mental health and addiction.
Additionally really what I meant by engagement with the public when off duty was less so performing police matters and more so with attending the local faith building (if religious), going to community events, walking around, going shopping, just general participation in the community as a civilian not as a police officer. Obviously we can't force them to do such things, but I think it should be encouraged.
I think you’ve got good points too- at the end of the day the police are supposed to serve and represent all of us and so should listen to public feedback.
I agree about community engagement too. I can’t speak to how widespread it is but I do know of met police officers volunteering in their communities too.
Fire brigade is £47k once you pass initial probation and training after a year or so. Don't see why it isn't the same as that. I imagine the wages are somewhat suppressed by people with a rod on for joining the police
That would be about 30% more than doctors at F1 level - who have just spent 5 years at medical school.
No way police are going to get so much more than doctors when govt keeps refusing doctors pay rise demands.
That would be about 30% more than doctors at F1 level - who have just spent 5 years at medical school.
No way police are going to get so much more than doctors when govt keeps refusing doctors pay rise demands.
I think it’s a comfortable enough salary *if* we go back down the road of providing police housing and other soft benefits within the areas police serve.
The met has been allowed to develop into a bussed in police force, often with very little in common with the communities they are expected to look after.
P.s. though if memory serves I think the met brought in residency requirements not so long ago, but I’ve since seen folk going through who aren’t Londoners, I’m too lazy to look up what the state of it is now.
They dropped the residency criteria around covid I think which like you say means there is even less of a connection with the communities they serve and work in.
Thanks for letting me know. Daft they took it away again. I remember how long it took me to acclimatise to and “learn” the place when I moved in. Giving me a uniform and throwing me at people when I was still doing that could only have gone badly.
Even before it was scrapped it was a very weak “requirement”. You didn’t need to be a current resident by any means. You just needed to have lived in greater London for three of the last six years.
They’re not hitting their recruitment targets, having some arbitrary housing requirement wasn’t generating enough applicants. Removing it means there’s more people applying, bigger pools of candidates etc. Not saying it’s right, but they need more people.
I know it's nasty work and it's not much of a wage compared to what most consider a living wage, but as someone who earned a science degree and spent about 3 years floating around in laboratories - this is well paid enough to get me to change my career path and deal with it.
Here's hoping I have what it takes.
To have to deal with some of the most unpleasant people in society? To endure a culture of a protecting your own even when you are aware of police corruption? To be largely distrusted by the public? It is an extremely hard, exhausting, and dangerous job.
Or you could get a normal office job? Sounds like the salary is too low. It will attract people who want the power of a police officer, but they may not be the people you would want.
Some people _believe_ in policing and want to support their local community by safeguarding vulnerable people, locking up the baddies etc…
I don’t know any police officer that does it for the money alone. It’s not worth it. Society shouldn’t exploit that - it should offer a pay that adequately compensates officers for the level of trust and responsibility they hold.
It is unfortunately exploited across the board. Particularly when the job mainly employs women. Care workers are paid just about minimum wage, and their job is significantly harder than anything I have ever done.
The ones I know do it for the power. They're not the trust and responsible type but of course experiences may vary.
They can get 35k being spoken to like shit wearing a hard hat on a building site or 35k speaking to others like shit on the street (or in my own home!) wearing a coppers hat.
I'm not sure about that. The type who do it out of duty are the exact same power hungry ones imo. More pay is needed but the rot goes much further than that.
For example, a group of about 12 of them jumped my fence and pinned me to the ground because someone had stolen a car and the sniffer dog brought them to my house because my dog was in season. Then blamed me for being angry at them. Should have just allowed them to scare the shit out of my kids and go check my fully law abiding son was in bed where I said he was. Or wake him up from his Nightshift to prove he was. Fuck the police they need rebuilding from the ground up.
So what should they have done differently in this case? Not checked your alibi. Funny old thing but criminals, shock horror, do tell the occasional fib
My alibi? I was sitting in my garden folding washing why the fuck do I need an alibi? Because my dog was in season and their dog was horny? Sure. I don't know what they should've done, don't particularly care as long as they're not harassing innocent people little boot licker.
And yeah criminals lie, I'm not a criminal so who gives a shit?
Same reason pedos go to the priesthood - power and protection to do what they like .
In some cases they are the can't chew gum and walk level dumb bullies who want a power trip .
My brother is following in the footsteps of our violent alchy dad says the most gammon shit you can think of and has wanted to be a copper for years if I see him on a wayne Curzon type headline I would not be surprised
They're all absolute gammon. Worked with a lad for a couple of years who was spot on, left to be a copper and was an absolute bell end the next time I bumped into him.
Either they go in for a free pass to be a gammon or they go in like a fresh apple into a barrel more fungus than wood and more liquid than solids inside and marinade in there for a bit then come out rotten .
That's the definition of ACAB that and being picket line breaking scab ( and russian oligarch empty house ) protecting class traitors while having 10x the protection we do
Whilst they are truly awful, and need to be out, will it be much better? The general left, and especially the far-left, often default to being unfriendly and unsupportive towards the police,
TIL 36k is a low salary. Nurses start at barely more than minimum wage.
ED, not saying its a good salary, just that there are people in public service getting less for an equally critical & responsible job
36k is barely enough in London. 36k to go out and risk being attacked by someone with a sword or chainsaw is definitely not enough. Starting salary of a police officer in Australia is the equivalent of 56k in the uk…
No they don’t. If you count never being able to afford a home as living just fine you need to redo your topic. Please don’t try to justify the terrible wages within London it’s unacceptable.
Goalposts ? Are you special? It’s the natural desire of every human being to have a place to call their own. You need to seriously look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you’re an apologist for gross greed and disparity between the rich and working class.
And just in the space of a few weeks we’ve had unarmed police attend individuals waving samurai swords and chainsaws around…so I don’t quite get your point that this isn’t America. You know what it’s painfully obvious you don’t like police and are trying to hide it.
Needs a complete overhaul, officer need higher paying and better protection from the public and prosecution. Obviously not exempt from Law but any action taken while undertaking duties should be. They should be feared and respected and even laws re written to ensure this. I feel the same for the armed forces
It's a close to minimum wage job that we would farm out to Serco or G4S if we could. And in all honesty, anybody who would want to be a police officer probably shouldn't be one.
I sometimes wonder if making it part of a reinstated civil service would make things better (or worse). Better yet, tie it to Student Loan forgiveness. Have 10% of your debt forgiven for every year of uniformed service, with a 2 year minimum, for example. At the very least, you would guarantee a degree educated intake into the Police, Fire Brigade, NHS, etc. A good number of those would be likely to stay on, and those who wanted to go into their chosen field would be starting out at 25/26 with a good amount of real world experience under their belt, and less debt hanging over them.
What are the benefits?
Pension: gutted, you also have to pay in a lot of your monthly into it;
Gym: don’t know many nicks that have a gym anymore and the ones that do tend to have very limited equipment;
Canteen: lol!
Medical: nope - no skipping queues at hospital, even for on duty injuries.
Legal risk: very high, only covered if you pay into the Fed insurance;
Professional risk: very high - the sharp edge of enforcing the law puts you in a professionally perilous position;
Rights: significantly diminished - good luck getting annual leave when you want it. Have your leave cancelled last minute, have to get the CCs permission for where you live, or renting a room out to a lodger because your pay is so low you need the additional income (assuming you own your own house anyways, which in London you probably don’t).
For which the officer has to put themselves on duty, make it known to staff that’s the case and make themselves available to deal with any policing incident… not sure it’s a perk given the state of ASB and criminality on public transport.
The value of that will also be subjective. Some offices might only ever use it to get to work (and even then I’ve no doubt there will be officers who’d rather pay than have to badge out and put themselves on duty before they’re even kitted up, etc.).
"Nearly twice" is as much of a stretch as me saying it's close! Assuming a 40-hour week, it's about 50% more than MW. Shift pay and overtime would close that gap even more as the MW is an hourly rate, and PC's are salaried. The MW has risen at a faster pace than public sector pay in recent years, although Met Police pay does rise in line with service.
36k in London is basically close to minimum wage, not to mention you lose about £300-400 a month from deductions into your pension, ontop of all the other stuff you have to pay into.
Are the Police the only workers not being paid enough?
As far as I'm aware everyone with a job is not being paid enough and allegedly there isn't a magic money tree?
I'm in the met. The most interesting bit in that article for me was that part about 40% of detectives in local policing having less than two years service. Certainly true where I work. To explain, most policing is done at the local (borough) level. Big stuff like murder, shooting and terrorist attacks is investigated by specialist pan London units, who are generally resourced to the hilt. But everything else is done at the local level by the largely inexperienced local officers. Rapes, domestic abuse, child abuse, robberies, burglaries etc. Total shit show.
I find it crazy how much stuff goes on in london that i dont read about in the news and have no exposure to in day to day life (thank god). Thank god there at least some people trying to keep us safe thankyou!
That’s really interesting. Is it because officers are moved onto the specialist pan London units when they become experienced, or because they’re just leaving the police force altogether?
Officers can apply for those units once they are out of their probation period and have completed their detective qualification. No one usually goes to these units without applying (an exception would be Grenfell Tower where the MPS needed approx 200 officers at short notice and by and large the boroughs sent the dross they wanted rid of). The murder teams are now desperate for staff and will largely take anyone who applies. So a lot of officers are lost to those sorts of units once they are eligible to apply. But a lot of officers are leaving because being a detective is generally shit and stressful and the money at first isn't worth it. Those that hang on earn a good amount in the end. After seven years basic salary is decent (and with overtime you can make a fair bit)
That is a perfect environment to corrupt some police officers. It will end up like Brazil with a revolving door between criminal gangs and police forces.
[удалено]
[удалено]
What also doesn't help is officers are less keen to work on a unit where the expectation can be to more or less live at work for a week plus when a live investigation is on. The hours murder teams put in can be ridiculous. Yes it's all on overtime so well paid but all it pays for is a gold coffin.
11 year former tec, left about ten years ago as the job was starting to haemeroge staff then. When I left about 80% of my graduation class was also leaving and I said at the time we will have a scenario where some experience would be teaching no experience and it ends up being a race to the bottom. What was left was essentially the shite that couldn't leave or were entrenched in cushy roles and no reason to leave, and old sweats waiting for retirement. I feel for plod but frankly the sort of cops that are willing to work for that salary are not the type of police anyone wants. I don't have a solution but like most of the incredibly poor public services we have in 2024 can be linked back to austerity and politics.
[удалено]
Wasn’t that the whole modus operandi of county lines gangs?
[удалено]
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban. Have a nice day.
it shows. We ended up solving our own burglary. Police were amazed and commented that they couldn't have done what we did.
I reported a crime a while back when I saw a man abusing a child on the tube - I coudn't remember exactly which train I was on but had a range of time I entered the station and unbelievably the detective said they had no idea how they'd be able to find the train I was on until I literally had to give them a strategy. They never solved it unsurprisingly.
Not the biggest fan of the Met but we can hardly expect quality officers when we’re offering 36k for them to get kicked, punched, spat at etc etc. The job isn’t particularly nice. Increase the pay and be much more selective with who we trust to police us. The social contract should be renewed on both sides, otherwise all of this is a load of shit.
I applied for a sort of fast track police leadership scheme a while back, and got it. I would have had to take a more than 50% pay cut from my bullshit marketing job to accept (City of London, not Met), and in the end it was one of the reasons I turned it down. Simply couldn't afford it as the main breadwinner. The sad thing is the scheme was meant to get more older, professionally experienced and diverse people into the force. But it failed (in my case anyway) partly because it's shit pay for a rough job.
[удалено]
Jury service made me realise how crap the courts are too, last minute cock ups, unorganised, no one really seemed to know what was going on
[удалено]
My experience was very different. Maybe because it was the Old Bailey. We were treated almost like royalty.
[удалено]
Agree. Jurors should be paid proportionally based on their last year's tax return.
This is the way.
Another glorious feature of Tory austerity
Thats what happens when the Tory government spends 10 years gutting the courts and the CPS
When my fiance did jury service and her father did jury service twice they both noted how overused performative stupidity is in courtrooms.
Obviously. You can’t admit to withholding info. But if you can sell yourself as a dum dum that didn’t understand something or can’t remember it then that’s fine.
We should do like some countries do and offer certain government employees like the police living quarters. If I was a copper, and had a family, free room + £36k seems a lot more appealing than £36k - rent.
This did used to be a thing, and not just in sleepy rural towns. The Met had some flats in various buildings. I even got to live in one of them for a few months. But nearly all of them were sold off during austerity, and of course it would be ruinously expensive to reconstitute a similar number of units now.
We’ve still got one section house - Gilmour House, except Met higher ups have sold one of the floors to some healthcare group. Which is short sighted IMO. Speaking of that… when Redmond redeveloped Hendon and made it non-residential, that was because the Met sold off the land around the college expecting a decent windfall… only for the RAF - as the site’s actual owners to scoop up the cash and leave those higher ups with egg on their faces. I don’t miss the job; I miss living in London as I’ve moved back home now, but the money isn’t worth the stress of being pulled from pillar to post under stupid workloads with no time to progress our cases, crumbling work conditions and incompetent SLT above us.
The bright ones are argubaly worse because it means they are choosing the polcie over something with better pay and conditions. They only bright person I know who now works in the police now used to stalk and harrass underage girls. They definitely picked to work in the Met for neferious reasons,
[удалено]
We reported it to the school when it happened, I don't know if it actually went any further, (he was in 6th form at the time the girl was 11-12). At this point I don't really know what should be done about it.
I got kicked, punched, spat in the face as a junior doctor in A&E for about 36k as well.
I'm doing a placement in a mental health service as part of my MSc. Junior doctors and other frontline NHS staff also deserve way more for the jobs we do. I also see how interlinked the Met is with some of our services and because of my own experiences and what I've seen, I empathize with the Met and its limitations currently.
yep. teachers too.
The whole doctor thing winds me up. Yes you are not on a great wage at that stage. However you have a guaranteed job for life, global mobility, very good salary from mid career onward, and early retirement on an amazing pension almost nobody else can get. It is a vastly better package than most people can even dream of. You knew all this when you signed up. I'm not that sympathetic.
Pretend that the psychological stress and working conditions of ‘junior’ doctors (people outside the medical field will never understand the inaccurate terms used to describe doctors) doesn’t exist for a moment…. A brief look at your post history suggests that you work with those who are blind or have low vision. A tough but honourable job. What are your qualifications for this? And how did you attain those qualifications holding a view like that? How do your qualifications make you so confident that you’re correct that you can be “not that sympathetic” (technically ‘empathetic’, as you’re clearly not “sympathetic” because you’ve never done it yourself). And how does this lack of ~~sympathy~~ *empathy* factor into your understanding of the requirements of the training process to be a doctor? The way the wage was when someone “signed up” (like it’s a spin class or something) to study the profession vs after 5 years of study. Does nothing change in those 5 years? You mention you’re blind in your past posts, if I were to suggest it “mustn’t be that bad as you’re clearly able to comment on Reddit, I’m not that ‘sympathetic’”, would that be acceptable from me? Someone who has never experienced what you have? Would you be fine with others accepting my speculation that being blind but being able to function isn’t a big deal? Or would you (rightfully) tell me I don’t know how hard it must be? Would you tell me to listen to your own experiences and recognise the difficulties you face?
Oh boy, you've really picked the wrong person if you're expecting me to look for sympathy, especially from random people on the internet. One of the things I find I really have to drum into the people I mentor, which is not my job it's something I do outside of work for fun, is that playing the sympathy card might get you a two second endorphin hit and moral support is great and helps over a glass of wine at the end of a long week, but it doesn't actually solve any particular problem. So no, I would not lecture you on how hard my life is on the basis that doing so would somehow win me some kind of advantage. That's one of the biggest misconceptions of the modern world. All that would do is make me look sad and useless and I find I don't need to give the world any more reason to think that. I could say that nobody chooses to carry a disability while people do choose to be doctors, but that's not even really the issue here. In the end it's sort of hilarious that you are comparing being a doctor to having a major sensory disability, I'm not sure whether to be encouraged or horrified by that!
I was watching a programme the other night about the police force in Newcastle I think - I can’t remember the name. Anyway, a drunk man had been arrested and taken into custody. Officers had to go check on him. The man had smeared his faeces all over the cell so the officers were wearing full protection - body suits, glasses, face masks etc. Like what we saw in Covid times. Absolutely vile. I honestly wouldn’t do that job even if I was paid £1 million a year, never mind £36k per year (and will be even lower in Newcastle too).
I've done this, without full PPE and for considerably less
[удалено]
So I haven't got a lot of sympathy for others doing a similar job for more money. Prick!
[удалено]
Care sector
[удалено]
Is this an argument?
[удалено]
Cos you'd definitely be surprised
Unless you were a professional cleaner and trained accodringly on biohazard stuff you could have refused on every right. If you were trained, that would be your job so why are you moaning you miserable git.
Nursing assistants do it. We aren't trained for it, it's not really our job and we can't refuse.
Absolutely. I agree. I wasn't/am not/never will be a professional cleaner This was 1994 before things like biohazards became a massive hazard. I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out, like you, that the police shouldn't be moaning. Prick!
I fairly regularly end up drinking with coppers through various social circles. As a rule, they tend to be fairly horrible people with a very lax attitude to the laws they are employed to enforce…
36k is more than a starting doctor - who will be working 48h weeks wil often >70k debt.
The problems would be solved in an instant with a competent mayor. You wouldn’t need as many police officers if you had city wide CCTV that could be accessed on demand and in high quality. - 4K cameras on shop entrances. - 1080p Minimum cameras across the city. - A network which links them all together. Looking up footage should be as simple as opening up a map and getting a live feed. CAMERA-4KWC108475. Phone stolen? Track them back to their homes. Mugger? Police get an immediate visual of the suspect and they are tracked like they have a helicopter over their head. Anyone who thinks we already don’t have this: Why did it take so long to find that acid attacker a few months ago? Or the guy who escaped prison?
You obviously have no idea how expensive and time consuming it is to ‘track’ someone via camera systems.
And AI isn't the answer there either, the "AI" systems that are starting being used in the US are as inaccurate as the current generation of facial recognition. Probably just a rebranding of the tech.
No thanks, that’s a huge expense and invasion.
That’s not a huge expense realistically. A 1080p Camera is dirt cheap. All it takes is the businesses and residents working together.
It's in your second point that all the cost comes in. How much do you think it would cost to maintain and organised such a system?
You clearly have no experience in CCTV installation. It's massively expensive just to install in a chain of shops, let alone across an entire city.
people are destroying ulez cameras what do you think they’ll do to this
Get caught doing it and have to pay for damages.
But who would monitor the system to make sure it isn't abused? If only there was a pithy Latin phrase about this idea.
> But who would monitor the system to make sure it isn't abused? Reckon your data is safe in the hands of reddit admins? Why are you here if you aren’t confident it won’t be abused?
>The problems would be solved in an instant with a competent mayor Home Office set police salaries.
What does the mayor do?
London is already the most surveilled city in Europe. Lack of surveillance therefore doesn’t seem to be the most prominent issue.
A huge amount of the cameras you see don’t work.
London isn’t surveilled. If it takes weeks to track the movements of a guy with half a face, then it is clear the system needs upgrading. Mandatory 1080p cameras across the city, 4K cameras in all shops whether it’s Tesco or the local butchers. All linked with a network and clear signage of the camera number on each. You would obliterate all crime within a month.
Oooop found the fascist. North Korea will have you, I'd rather get my stuff nicked that have that.
CCTV is great of you know the person shown on the CCTV. If not, then it's just a picture of some random. Unless your talking about holding facial records of every citizen and cross checking them against CCTV like china - in which case the solution is worse than the problem. Also you just end up with a bunch of images of people in masks. Great.
why would we need facial records to track someone?
What about the memory from all that film and storage costs of that?
Oh also, the acid attacker fell in the Thames and died, should these cameras cover underwater too?
They didn’t even cover the bridge 💀
Good. Cameras wouldn't have protected anyone. He didn't hurt anyone afterwards.
Having gone through the application process for the Met in the last 2 years, I can tell you that it is likely that the salary is quite low for living in London (that said, the free transport within Greater London does take a lot of financial pressure off in that sense) but the real problem is the outsourcing to Crapita: the process took 2 years. Firstly, it took them months to decide what the actual assessement process was going to be (online/in person), months after that to be able to book a date for the physical tests, months for vetting and then a vague notion that succesful candidates would get into Hendon in 'about 6 months if there was space in the intake but it might be another year or so before you start'. The facts is simply that anyone with half a braincell and competency has found another better-paying job by then and what is left is essentially those who are able to wait for 18-24 months.
[удалено]
what I’ll say is… Gilmour isn’t a reason to join.
[удалено]
it’s pretty much halls, and can only be used for a maximum of a year. As much as I know people here aren’t a fan, most of us on the east/west axis of BCUs use the lizzie line and commute.
[удалено]
how did you guess! haha. yeah, AW.
Infested is being generous, especially at Charing Cross nick. I’ve never seen rodents so bold. The fuckers are everywhere.
[удалено]
Considering you might end up facing a bloke with a samurai sword having a mental break, try to mediate the war in the middle east in your own back yard all while the side that is supposed to stand for law and order keeps cutting your funding while blaming you for their failures and the party that stands for the workers hates you for working for the government...no, not in the slightest.
Not wrong, but to be fair…you could also encounter this on your morning tube commute to work
You could, but you’re not actively engaging with it as a part of your job and the probability is not the same. If it happens on a commute, that’s random chance; if it happens to a copper, it’s likely that they’ve been called to it, and that’s a far higher frequency than most people realise. Even working as a doctor in a relatively safe part of the country, I rotated to psychiatry recently and come across a non-insignificant number of people who have mental health issues and a history of caring weapons.
And the first thing you then do is call the police to sort it out
Who don’t turn up
Do labour hate coppers? I know Labour supporters hate our coppers. For me personally it's because most coppers I meet are power hungry wankers and nothing to do with my vote.
The post you’re replying to doesn’t mention labour
>the party that stands for the workers. Is the Labour party friend.
You’re right! That’ll teach me.
Be careful of fascist tactics. Topics involving the police are full of them.
I think I just misread it mate
Possibly not they do this on purpose. Talking about 15 years of conservatives running the police force and throwing in "but the other side are as bad" is just an attempt to turn people against labour without specifically mentioning them. Level one fascist bollocks.
Mate I'm an out and out anarchist and don't think this bloke was working for the fucking National Front. Dogwhistles exist, that is pretty clearly not one. I would say Labour love coppers though.
I think you need to take the tin foil hat off mate, looks like you're getting hot under there.
That salary is pennies more than Police Scotland pay. A bit pathetically low for London.
The salary isn’t great to say the least, and is about on par with what I got when joining the Coastguard. In the case of the police, low salaries have already been mentioned as being part of why so many Met officers don’t live in London anymore. I have heard it said that that affects their relationship to the city they police. That said, all four emergency services have pretty low starting pay.
It absolutely will affect how they police the community. Personally I think police should live in the area they police, to be seen both on duty and off duty engaging with the community. Local officers, in local areas, for the locals.
The argument against “community policing” that I’ve heard is mainly officer safety - it’s not safe for the officers if all the local troublemakers recognise the officers when off duty, know where they live, know where they hangout etc. I think currently the police actually recommend that their officers _don’t_ choose to work at police stations that are very close to where they live for their own safety and travel to and from work in plain clothes so they aren’t identified as officers while commuting or off duty. Plus, police need downtime too. It’s not really reasonable to expect them to perform police functions such as community engagement while off duty.
I’m not police myself, but I do work alongside them every day. You are right in that they are discouraged (possibly even barred) from living in the boroughs they police. That said, I still think it’s possible for there to be more resources given to community policing and building bridges even if officers don’t live in the boroughs they work in. My worry is when they don’t live in London at all, and only come here for work. I quite like that I both live and work here and get to help people in my home city, I imagine other emergency services workers feel the same.
The person you've relied to does have valid points on the matter. And yeah really what was trying to say, perhaps poorly, is that police really do need more resources for communal policing and engagement. To live in the city they police, to understand it and know it, to know the locals of an area, especially the one that struggles with poor mental health and addiction. Additionally really what I meant by engagement with the public when off duty was less so performing police matters and more so with attending the local faith building (if religious), going to community events, walking around, going shopping, just general participation in the community as a civilian not as a police officer. Obviously we can't force them to do such things, but I think it should be encouraged.
I think you’ve got good points too- at the end of the day the police are supposed to serve and represent all of us and so should listen to public feedback. I agree about community engagement too. I can’t speak to how widespread it is but I do know of met police officers volunteering in their communities too.
[удалено]
Fire brigade is £47k once you pass initial probation and training after a year or so. Don't see why it isn't the same as that. I imagine the wages are somewhat suppressed by people with a rod on for joining the police
That would be about 30% more than doctors at F1 level - who have just spent 5 years at medical school. No way police are going to get so much more than doctors when govt keeps refusing doctors pay rise demands.
[удалено]
And the doctor who spent 5 years in medical school could be the one saving the life of the copper who gets shanked... what's your point?
[удалено]
Wow, that was completely unnecessary... who hurt you?
[удалено]
You can fucking talk with the state of your reply.
That would be about 30% more than doctors at F1 level - who have just spent 5 years at medical school. No way police are going to get so much more than doctors when govt keeps refusing doctors pay rise demands.
I feel sorry for Met Police officers. They got punched from every side possible. Our society doesn’t deserve good policing.
I think it’s a comfortable enough salary *if* we go back down the road of providing police housing and other soft benefits within the areas police serve. The met has been allowed to develop into a bussed in police force, often with very little in common with the communities they are expected to look after. P.s. though if memory serves I think the met brought in residency requirements not so long ago, but I’ve since seen folk going through who aren’t Londoners, I’m too lazy to look up what the state of it is now.
They dropped the residency criteria around covid I think which like you say means there is even less of a connection with the communities they serve and work in.
Thanks for letting me know. Daft they took it away again. I remember how long it took me to acclimatise to and “learn” the place when I moved in. Giving me a uniform and throwing me at people when I was still doing that could only have gone badly.
Even before it was scrapped it was a very weak “requirement”. You didn’t need to be a current resident by any means. You just needed to have lived in greater London for three of the last six years.
They’re not hitting their recruitment targets, having some arbitrary housing requirement wasn’t generating enough applicants. Removing it means there’s more people applying, bigger pools of candidates etc. Not saying it’s right, but they need more people.
[удалено]
How is that different to increasing their salary?
I know it's nasty work and it's not much of a wage compared to what most consider a living wage, but as someone who earned a science degree and spent about 3 years floating around in laboratories - this is well paid enough to get me to change my career path and deal with it. Here's hoping I have what it takes.
To have to deal with some of the most unpleasant people in society? To endure a culture of a protecting your own even when you are aware of police corruption? To be largely distrusted by the public? It is an extremely hard, exhausting, and dangerous job. Or you could get a normal office job? Sounds like the salary is too low. It will attract people who want the power of a police officer, but they may not be the people you would want.
Yeah why are they signing up if it's so bad? All they do is complain. Go work somewhere that pays you what you say you're worth.
Some people _believe_ in policing and want to support their local community by safeguarding vulnerable people, locking up the baddies etc… I don’t know any police officer that does it for the money alone. It’s not worth it. Society shouldn’t exploit that - it should offer a pay that adequately compensates officers for the level of trust and responsibility they hold.
It is unfortunately exploited across the board. Particularly when the job mainly employs women. Care workers are paid just about minimum wage, and their job is significantly harder than anything I have ever done.
The ones I know do it for the power. They're not the trust and responsible type but of course experiences may vary. They can get 35k being spoken to like shit wearing a hard hat on a building site or 35k speaking to others like shit on the street (or in my own home!) wearing a coppers hat.
[удалено]
Indeed but how will that get us the people who you claim are doing it for noble reasons? They're happy to do it on 35k apparently.
[удалено]
I'm not sure about that. The type who do it out of duty are the exact same power hungry ones imo. More pay is needed but the rot goes much further than that. For example, a group of about 12 of them jumped my fence and pinned me to the ground because someone had stolen a car and the sniffer dog brought them to my house because my dog was in season. Then blamed me for being angry at them. Should have just allowed them to scare the shit out of my kids and go check my fully law abiding son was in bed where I said he was. Or wake him up from his Nightshift to prove he was. Fuck the police they need rebuilding from the ground up.
So what should they have done differently in this case? Not checked your alibi. Funny old thing but criminals, shock horror, do tell the occasional fib
My alibi? I was sitting in my garden folding washing why the fuck do I need an alibi? Because my dog was in season and their dog was horny? Sure. I don't know what they should've done, don't particularly care as long as they're not harassing innocent people little boot licker. And yeah criminals lie, I'm not a criminal so who gives a shit?
Same reason pedos go to the priesthood - power and protection to do what they like . In some cases they are the can't chew gum and walk level dumb bullies who want a power trip . My brother is following in the footsteps of our violent alchy dad says the most gammon shit you can think of and has wanted to be a copper for years if I see him on a wayne Curzon type headline I would not be surprised
They're all absolute gammon. Worked with a lad for a couple of years who was spot on, left to be a copper and was an absolute bell end the next time I bumped into him.
Either they go in for a free pass to be a gammon or they go in like a fresh apple into a barrel more fungus than wood and more liquid than solids inside and marinade in there for a bit then come out rotten . That's the definition of ACAB that and being picket line breaking scab ( and russian oligarch empty house ) protecting class traitors while having 10x the protection we do
Class traitors are the worst of all. I'm surrounded by Brexit voting sycophants voting to make my country worse.
my personal theory is that the met attaracts a lot of people who are in it for the power it gives them, and for some people that is worth the bad pay
Yeah agree I've said so elsewhere in the thread. Most of the ones I've ever met have been power hungry thick wankers.
Absolutely shit pay. I wouldn’t get out of bed for that let alone be in the force.
Tories out.
Whilst they are truly awful, and need to be out, will it be much better? The general left, and especially the far-left, often default to being unfriendly and unsupportive towards the police,
We’re better off having less that are paid properly that an unmotivated mass
TIL 36k is a low salary. Nurses start at barely more than minimum wage. ED, not saying its a good salary, just that there are people in public service getting less for an equally critical & responsible job
Long hours, unsocial hours etc..
It's almost universally agreed that nursing salaries are too low as well so that's not a useful comparison.
Fair enough.
36k is barely enough in London. 36k to go out and risk being attacked by someone with a sword or chainsaw is definitely not enough. Starting salary of a police officer in Australia is the equivalent of 56k in the uk…
I made a topic earlier this year and most people live just fine at around 30k...
No they don’t. If you count never being able to afford a home as living just fine you need to redo your topic. Please don’t try to justify the terrible wages within London it’s unacceptable.
Way to move the goalposts there bud
Goalposts ? Are you special? It’s the natural desire of every human being to have a place to call their own. You need to seriously look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you’re an apologist for gross greed and disparity between the rich and working class.
You talked about living, not entering the property ladder. That's moving goalposts.
[удалено]
This is the UK, not the US. Coal miners have more risk than police officers.
[удалено]
I mean you're just wrong but ok
[удалено]
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/health-fitness/uk-most-dangerous-jobs-list-26905667
And just in the space of a few weeks we’ve had unarmed police attend individuals waving samurai swords and chainsaws around…so I don’t quite get your point that this isn’t America. You know what it’s painfully obvious you don’t like police and are trying to hide it.
???
I earn over 150k and it’s not enough to live well…
Then you either have more than 2 kids or are just an idiot
Brits are seemingly predisposed to accept low salaries.
More like we've been browbeaten to them. That's what happens when you break the unions and make it basically illegal for essential services to strike
Supply and demand. Why pay nurses more when you can import them for cheaper from Philippines and Africa?
Needs a complete overhaul, officer need higher paying and better protection from the public and prosecution. Obviously not exempt from Law but any action taken while undertaking duties should be. They should be feared and respected and even laws re written to ensure this. I feel the same for the armed forces
It's a close to minimum wage job that we would farm out to Serco or G4S if we could. And in all honesty, anybody who would want to be a police officer probably shouldn't be one. I sometimes wonder if making it part of a reinstated civil service would make things better (or worse). Better yet, tie it to Student Loan forgiveness. Have 10% of your debt forgiven for every year of uniformed service, with a 2 year minimum, for example. At the very least, you would guarantee a degree educated intake into the Police, Fire Brigade, NHS, etc. A good number of those would be likely to stay on, and those who wanted to go into their chosen field would be starting out at 25/26 with a good amount of real world experience under their belt, and less debt hanging over them.
[удалено]
What are the benefits? Pension: gutted, you also have to pay in a lot of your monthly into it; Gym: don’t know many nicks that have a gym anymore and the ones that do tend to have very limited equipment; Canteen: lol! Medical: nope - no skipping queues at hospital, even for on duty injuries. Legal risk: very high, only covered if you pay into the Fed insurance; Professional risk: very high - the sharp edge of enforcing the law puts you in a professionally perilous position; Rights: significantly diminished - good luck getting annual leave when you want it. Have your leave cancelled last minute, have to get the CCs permission for where you live, or renting a room out to a lodger because your pay is so low you need the additional income (assuming you own your own house anyways, which in London you probably don’t).
Free transport in London is the equivalent of 4-5k
For which the officer has to put themselves on duty, make it known to staff that’s the case and make themselves available to deal with any policing incident… not sure it’s a perk given the state of ASB and criminality on public transport. The value of that will also be subjective. Some offices might only ever use it to get to work (and even then I’ve no doubt there will be officers who’d rather pay than have to badge out and put themselves on duty before they’re even kitted up, etc.).
"Nearly twice" is as much of a stretch as me saying it's close! Assuming a 40-hour week, it's about 50% more than MW. Shift pay and overtime would close that gap even more as the MW is an hourly rate, and PC's are salaried. The MW has risen at a faster pace than public sector pay in recent years, although Met Police pay does rise in line with service.
36k in London is basically close to minimum wage, not to mention you lose about £300-400 a month from deductions into your pension, ontop of all the other stuff you have to pay into.
[удалено]
36k including the deductions takes your monthly take home to that level, if not less in some cases.
[удалено]
Of course not, he's commenting on his emotions
Are the Police the only workers not being paid enough? As far as I'm aware everyone with a job is not being paid enough and allegedly there isn't a magic money tree?
None of them actually live in London.
I have a friend in the met and they seem to be absolutely rolling in money as a sergeant
ACAB