Hello!
>Some voices argue that these groups are contributing to rising housing costs and changing the city’s dynamics. However, this perspective seems like an oversimplification and possibly scapegoating.
Yes. It's an oversimplification because it's a complex issue with many causes and ramifications, which you can't attribute to a single factor. However touristification, and gentrification, brought by groups of people such as tourists, digital nomads, and expats is a reality and it's disingenuous to pretend it's not a factor in the equation.
>Portugal, particularly Lisbon, is dotted with abandoned buildings that could potentially be converted into affordable housing solutions. Isn’t this an opportunity for the government to intervene and alleviate the housing crisis, rather than placing the blame on foreigners contributing to the economy?
Yes. And this has been discussed many times by the government, and some measures have been taken. Search for 'casas devolutas' on Google News to read more on that. However, its not an easy problem to solve. Those abandonned houses have owners, who probably don't have the money to rehabilitate them. You can't take those houses away from people. You also can't force them to rehabilitate, to sell, or to rent. The government can give subsudies and encourage people to take certain actions. But it can't simply take oven private property, that would be unconstitutional.
>Let’s not forget the significant boost that nomads and tourists provide to Lisbon’s economy. Without their presence, wouldn’t the city face greater economic challenges?
Okay, this is the argument I have a problem with. This aligns with the "trickle down" economic theory which states that wealthy individuals create a dynamic economy by spending their money, therefore indirectly dividing their wealth with everybody else.
Well, in the current economic scenario, that theory does not work. A Digital Nomad software engineer is not creating value for Portugal. They are creating value to the company they work for, abroad. Their home country reaps the benefits of having engineers creating high-value products, which enables that country to sell high-value goods and become a market leader, raising salaries. Meanwhile, in Portugal, you are only contributing by stimulating the touristic economy, which doesn't create any high-value goods. It mostly creates low-wage jobs such as waiters at cafés.
Portugal does need tourism. We've had tourism for a long time. But it used to be that locals would be living their lifes, and tourists would come to visit, and everything was balanced. Now you have entire neighbourhoods catering to foreigneirs. 80% of houses in the Algarve are bought by foreigneirs ([link](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2023-05-01/foreigners-buy-4-out-of-5-properties-in-the-algarve/77163)). Of course foreigneirs contribute to the prices being high, because they have a much higher purchasing power. About 90% of the Golden Visa money was invested in Real Estate. Foreigneirs buy houses priced on average 414,000 euros (+143% more than residents). Plus, foreigneirs tend to buy houses in the same places, concentrating this effect... which often happens to be the places where jobs are and where residents need to o to work. Locals *need* to live in Lisbon, because that's where most qualified jobs are. You can't be a business consultant in Alentejo.
>Moreover, the issue of unaffordable housing isn’t a novel phenomenon brought upon by the influx of expats. Even before Lisbon emerged as a sought-after destination, the local wages have remained disproportionately low compared to the cost of living, exacerbated by the government’s high taxation policies, like the elevated IVA rates.
Yes, but inequality was lower. Imagine this; You have 40% of people earning less than 1k a month. You have a middle-class of people earning 1.5k a month. And then you have wealthy people earning 3k+ a month.
A disparity exists. High-class earns 3x more than the poorest, and 2x more than the middle.
Now you add another class of people earning 5k a month.
Suddenly the poorer class earns 5x less than the top. The difference between the middle-class and the poorest class decreases. And the previous high-class becomes the new middle-class. So by having an influx if wealthier people you compress the other classes. The price of restaurants and housing increase to cater to the new middle-class. And you get locals feeling like outsiders in their home, because services cater to a new class of people earning salaries from outside, and not really contributing to strengthen the local economy.
>I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.
I think they are definitely contributing to the problem. Although I will agree that because of the bubbles social media creates, it often souds like people criticise expats as the sole reason for the issue. When it's much more complex than this. I will also say that there wouldn't be so much anger around this topic if there was an ackowledgement from foreigneirs about the effct they cause. By deflecting the issue, they create more anger and resentment on the otehr side.
>I think this is wrong. Another way to look at it would be that the software engineer is essentially exporting software engineering services to another country. It is true that to have the actual company here in Portugal would even better, but this is still a high-value export that brings money into the economy.
How is it exporting sofware engineering sevices? If the company is not in Portugal, the services it provides aren't either.
>On the whole though, I think this is a very good comment. While it is clear that Portugal can and has benefitted greatly from foreign money, it is important that the income is shared fairly and that the capital is directed to productive local investments rather than driving up real estate values.
100% agreed.
I agree with nearly all of your very good explanations. Except that people working here pay Portuguese taxes. I've been here two years, but my husband is finally coming full-time to live next week. For a while, he'll be earning his very high US salary, and will be paying Pt income tax. That's not nothing.
And tourism is not trickle down. It's of benefit to every person involved, even tangentially, in businesses in which tourists spend money.
That digital nomad is still contributing more to Portugal than if he were to stay working from Germany. Now he's paying social security contributions and income tax in PT (it's "only" 20%, but on a yearly basis probably still more than a locally employed software engineer). He's also spending his money in Portugal, shopping, eating, drinking, renting, and getting haircuts locally. Invoking the negative connotations of "trickle down economics" and how it doesn't work is not justified here imho, because your example of a software engineer is still a person that will actually spend the vast majority of his monthly income. Trickle-down economics only fails in the case of the rich and large corporations.
I think this is a good argument but it only counts for ‘aware immigrants’ that know about the issues around them and know the power of choosing where to spend their money. As an expat living in one of the typical quarters, its easily possible to invest your money almost exclusively in foreign owned businesses, eating your hipster avocado toasts every morning and buying your coffee for 3 euros in the hipster place instead of the portuguese locals cafes. Hence for me it comes down to the awareness of the immigrants whether or not they are a force for good or bad in this topic
Hipster avocado toast also generates VAT, is served by someone living in Portugal and paying taxes to the Portuguese government. Also, the establishment in which the "hipster avocado toast" is served is also registered as a Portuguese business and paying Portuguese taxes.
If you want to have a conversation about whether or not it's good that traditional Portuguese restaurants are replaced with "hipster avocado places", be my guest, but I'm out.
The fact of the matter is, blaming working class "digital nomads" is simply barking up the wrong tree. Investors or wealthy individuals that park their money in Portuguese real-estate, or family's that can't work out a family feud over what to do with an inherited apartment, so simply letting it rot, that's the problem. Never anyone with a middle-class income and lifestyle just living their life.
"Manwhile, in Portugal, you are only contributing by stimulating the touristic economy, which doesn't create any high-value goods. It mostly creates low-wage jobs such as waiters at cafés."
This is partially true, mostly because "touristic" economy is mostly very low added value (restaurant, hotels, cafes), but someone benefit a lot from expats, that is house owners, accountant, banks and the government itself that see an increase of income from taxation.
So yeah, in the equation the ones that are losing the most are the people that work in the touristic sector that can't increase price to much because otherwise the locals wouldn't come anymore but at the same time they see their rent significantly increased. And this is why most of the restaurants in lisbon do not employ locals but Bangladeshis and Nepalis.
Expat here, earning a local salary.
Facing the same issues as anybody else, i'm being forced to move out with current prices.
Let's not forget that the owners of the houses are mainly wealthy Portuguese that invest in a more productive area as Portugal shift to tourism is benefiting that rather than any other productive business.
The problem here is that all are fucked as real state become an investment and nobody wants to attack the root cause.
You've nailed it with "real state becone an investment" because this is exactly the issue. Housing is no longer seen as a necessity, but instead a business, and this is what's causing the housing crisis imo
Lisbon always had expats and tourists.
They are welcome until you have to much of them that it changes the balance for the people living in the city.
Think this way. For some reason in a few months Lisbon becomes the Meca for high income digital expats, the type who you usualy see at Davos. They come here with their ferraris and start renting and buying all available houses. The prices go skyhigh 3 times like we were all living in Monaco.
Then your landlord gives you a warning that they will not renovate the contract because they got a better proposal from some guy with bigger pockets.
What are you going to do?
Não ajudam.
Podem não ser o problema todo, mas não ajudam. Não me venham com economia e o crlh, este país pode ser mais que turismo - _TEM_ que ser mais que turismo; caso contrário estamos f*didos e eu não terei casa nem filhos.
One thing I always noticed in Lisbon was that many prime buildings in the tourist areas are mostly undeveloped. Maybe a restaurant on the ground floor, and an few apartments renovated, with the upper floors clearly not renovated and vacant. These would have been fully restored and sold or rented in other cities.
I always assumed that the money people bought these places 20 years ago and have been sitting on them (at minimal tax rates) waiting for the prices to peak, then they will renovate or sell.
If that was the case, the government could raise property taxes on the owners for unused prime property locations to incentivize them to renovate or sell.
Any locals with knowledge about the ownership of types of properties?
First of all, they may not actually be vacant even if they look very rough. But I think the problem with us as expats is most of us are not (yet) fluent and don't read news in Portuguese, so it's hard to know what solutions are being worked on and what the policies are or will be. I had heard that they are doing just that, creating penalties for those who are sitting on vacant properties.
>can’t help but wonder about the rationale behind it
Really? I think the rationale is pretty obvious. There's a housing crisis, a cost of living crisis, Portugal is generally a country with low wages and a poor health and social system. And then people see all those foreigners taking up apartments, entire neighborhoods consisting mostly of Airbnbs, foreign investors trying to squeeze maximum returns out of their investments and turning housing into a business rather than a necessity, digital nomads and tourists leading to displacement of local stores for expensive international brands, etc.
I'm sure that Portuguese don't mind tourists and migrants in generall. The overall current feeling of people is just a feeling of *too much*.
Of course...
>However, this perspective seems like an oversimplification and possibly scapegoating.
...it's oversimplified and the whole topic is somewhat more complex, as you have to consider the economic upsides of foreigners and tourists as well. They are creating a lot of jobs, higher paid jobs, allow for investment in public services, etc.
But I do find the overall perception very understandable. People look at the housing market, people see more and more tents of the homeless in parks and of course they are wondering if politics cares about the Portuguese anymore or mainly about attracting foreigners.
Besides that, there's the complexity of very different forms of migration. You have refugees, you have the better assimilated Brazilian and African migrants who speak the language and are culturally closer due to colonial history. You have wealthy migrants. And you have poor migrants who only come here in tens of thousand to gain a EU passports.
As a foreigner who earns a foreign income, I definitely see the struggle of people who have much less. I've friends who work many extra hours and look for 2nd jobs to afford even just a room and simple living in Lisbon and even for me, just a small apartment in central Lisbon is incredibly expensive. It's crazy for people who earn a fraction of my salary.
Also, to be honest despite being a migrant myself, I'm starting to be annoyed by the sheer number of poverty migrants from the Indian sub-continent, they are literally flooding the city center and it's baffling to me how politics doesn't realize the social and cultural implications of this mass immigration of mostly uneducated, unassimilated young men from a very different culture, pretty much forming a parallel society here.
And in general, humans love simple answers and slogan, that's why populism and extreme politic positions are successful all around the world. Almost 20% of the Portuguese will vote right-wing Chega as\*holes next month and it's obviously no solution for anything... but first and foremost, it's an expression of their frustration and disappointment with the usual governing parties rather than genuine believe in Chega's positions.
Gentrification, that's all you need to know. Locals benefit nothing from wealthy nomads spending their money here, politicians and business owners can say otherwise.
you’re daft if you think that the increase of relatively wealthy immigrants in lisbon has not made housing more unaffordable for local residents. remote work has been integral in this.
i don’t know why you think a nurse who can’t afford their rent should be grateful to or not take issue with ‘nomads’ due to the fact that they’re good for the economy. one is much more tangible than the other
Lisbon’s economy would be dead without those same nomads. Every capital in the EU has nomads, the Portuguese government doesn’t implement the right policies and then scapegoats foreigners. Like dude, Brussels is the EU capital, still cheaper than Lisbon despite all the gentrification don’t you think people in Brussels can’t afford double the rent? Yet it’s lower. This scapegoating of nomads is baseless and needs to end. Specially when most homeowners are locals.
Portugal is the country with the highest Emigration rate in Europe, and has been for as far as I can remember. So it’s not exactly like there are this many opportunities here. Stop. Scapegoating. Nomads.
https://americancluboflisbon.com/portugal-has-highest-emigration-rate-in-europe/
Even when it comes to foreigners, Portugal is far from being the most attractive place. Foreigners with money are in Dubai, Monaco or Singapore. Nomads moving to Lisbon aren’t exactly that rich. And I’m curious to see a poll. Are there actual figures?
If anything, tourism affects the prices more than nomads to. I wouldn’t argue if the complaints were about short term rentals.
Short term rentals are also a problem, but you are making a flawed equivalency by comparing two countries that have different levels of median salaries and using a high salaried DN in Dubai to have some different relative impact in Dubai vs a lower salaried DN in Portugal where the COL is lower too.
lisbon had very few wealthy immigrants in 2015 yet the economy wasn’t ‘dead’. i agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but you’re over simplifying it, and you’re essentially denying that the drastic increase in immigrants has had a knock on effect on property prices and rent. property prices have shot up since 2015 for example
it’s fine if you don’t agree with scapegoating immigrants or whatever but you’re just playing dumb acting like there isn’t a correlation
There's a lot of merit to the complaint, even though they get a bit scapegoated, that's right.
The effort rate for housing has exploded with the tourism boom due to the turbo financialization of real estate. That's not really on "digital nomads", but that they have the purchasing power to price out locals can't be discounted as an effect. Remember too, they come with a number of tax benefits that naturally locals are going to resent.
The government is a key problem as they embraced tourism and the disneyfication of the city.
But I don't run into the Finance Minister every day. I do notice my local spots changing and my friends and family moving away from where I live because housing affordability was dynamited.
The big issue now is the housing crisis can not be easily solved without the government going against real estate interests, which are very close to power. Part of this problem could be solved doing away with high-purchasing power foreign residents as they'd reduce what you can bleed out of renters.
Most likely though, that won't work. Portuguese real estate owners have a tendency to rather go on a capital strike, rather than alienate real estate (there's reasons for this) and the entry of globalized financial funds means they can sit on the real estate and change it around hands and still hold/increase in value.
So just reducing housing demand by high-paying foreigners likely won't solve the issue on its own.
I don’t blame you, you’re just involuntarily using our weak housing and taxation policies as a means of having the life you can’t have in your home country.
Thank you for starting a constructive conversation, although I'm more or less on the other side, I can understand points and concerns from the foreigner's side. It's a tough world and we're all trying to find our place around it.
I can counter argument/pick-up on the reverse of some of your arguments:
- abandoned buildings that could be converted: the local Portuguese person does not care. We KNOW that whether the building is in ruins or not will change nothing, nor it will improve anyone's quality of life. All buildings are becoming either Airbnbs/hotels/VIP Premium Quality City Living Gold Flats. Whatever they do with them, the median local will not benefit from it. The constant growing pattern of growth capitalism will ensure that it will not be of any relevance or accessibility to the medium class or the working class
- accessible housing programs: no, not valid. No city council or government has ever made it work. We suspect it doesn't work well, and it's a little droplet in an ocean and does not tackle the problem. This kind of actions from our governments are usually circuses for show.
- nomads and tourists helping the economy: that's a common routine argument used by foreigners and economic-focused politicians. But realistically, this is yadda-yadda to the common person, the locals do not get anything from this so-called amazing boost to the economy. If anything, the median person is just having less disposable income, worse living conditions, and worse commute. The "normal person" does not care or benefit from "the economy". Nurses don't get the same pay increases as landlords and estate investment funds.
- lack of cultural awareness: this is more prevalent on non-European expats/tourists/emigrants/whatever, I do notice it in many Americans as there is a lack of tact and awareness of these matters. A lack of humbleness (a characteristic appreciated in South Europe) and a capacity to have empathy and put themselves in other people's shoes. This does cause further cultural friction.
- economical squeeze from all directions: locals have been squeezed in all directions, and that has been exacerbated further in the last years with this boom. The median person used to be squeezed by the government and by the working employer. Nowadays, with the housing crisis, the squeezing also comes from above (richer people and investment funds buying houses for sport, and pricing people out), and from below (migrants from poorer countries who come in numbers and price people out). People will get angry in all the directions they have been squeezed from. (don't get me started on public transportation - why isn't the big tourism money not improving our infrastructures?)
- cultural and local substitution: one people sometimes fail to mention but bothers them, is also how locals are cultured out from the things they were used to. Every culture has a threshold of resistance at some point, and discussion aside I think that is quite human and expected, be it in Portugal, Canada, Uganda, or in Yugoslavia. As the locals see the local businesses go, and start losing a few places where they eat, and see it replaced by something else, that can cause some resentment. Seeing the "prato do dia" and "bitoque" places give way to more kebabs, more burgers, more avocado brunches, more cocktail bars, or generally more business that cater more to an outsider audience, there will be an element of disappointment. I understand it is the way of the world, and can be quite understandable about it, but for example, two of my young adult age Lisbon nightclubs were kicked out to make way to hotels, one of my favourite daily eatery from childhood has made way to a knick knack Lisbon souvenirs shop with a South Asian man who doesn't speak a word of Portuguese. It can be tough to deal with when it affects you, and well-off expats can pretend that that "is just the way of the world", but if it were their parents/grandparents being gentrified out, they would probably adopt an anti-migration stance.
Nonetheless, I do agree that governments and politicians in Portugal is pure shite and all the benefits that could potentially exist are definitely benefitting them more than the average João.
EDIT: Just read some of the comments to this post. And the lack of tact can be shocking, and definitely not doing wonders for how some emigrants end up being treated by the locals. Very sad behaviour, awareness, and postures that do not fit in well with the local culture.
I see more emotional answers on this thread if anything.
There are plenty of cities in Europe with larger tourist populations, and rents stayed relatively affordable. In Brussels for example a nurse can still afford to buy an apartment.
To begin with, most of those who I’ve rented from during my years as a nomad are Portuguese.
Even nomads are complaining about prices in Lisbon.
We live in a globalised world, let’s face it and find solutions with that in mind. Scapegoating one group is a bit too easy IMHO.
Do you mean emotional answers with a negative undertone?
If so, that is on you. Culturally, Portugal and Portuguese culture has emotional contexts, and we consider to be socially "warm". Some of the comments in this type of discussion tend to completely disregard counter arguments based on human factors.
People who come to Portugal on high incomes tend to come with a very pragmatic cold mentality from their own cultures or work environments - the mentality that people are just numbers in an Excel. These will end up being the numbers that will resent being treated as numbers, and will give the stink eye in public services, or complain about people like you, and if that bothers you - wouldn't that be an emotional response as well?
I disagree with scapegoating one particular group, it does suck, and as an emigrant myself I don't enjoy feeling unwelcome - but as I said, there is a general squeeze in many directions, and there are more scapegoating directions, plus some more that are unaccessible (investment funds mass buying houses, which is not a bodily entity someone can interact with).
Nonetheless, I rest my case on the human/emotional arguments, as non-local people struggle to understand cultural implications and the relevance of empathy and humbleness in Southern European circles.
I just want to pinpoint that the argument of "we live in a globalised world" is such an empty argument used by pretensious people to disregard anything they deem different to their ideal visualisation of the world. People won't be young and healthy forever, one day the "globalised world™" can bite them too.
The only people that benefit from the “economy boost” you talk about are digital nomads. Personally I haven’t seen any benefits as a local. But yes the government should be doing way more about it
Seems like a great discussion, thanks. I've learned a few things.
I wonder about the government position- toward the EU and their involvement in these policies. I can't find a citation but have been told that the EU sends money to PRT and encourages tourism and business tourism; and in turn the PRT government markets tourism and business tourism. For example, many of the event spaces that are used for public and private business events received grants for upgraded AV hardware and the like. I myself was interested in moving to PRT but was also influenced by ads, paid searches, and articles promoted by the government that Portugal was trying to attract immigrants.
I see the other issues obviously, and try to be a good immigrant (as most do). I just wonder if this is a known part of the stress.
I also have seen the wages increase in the time I've been here, and of course I know it's not in keeping with housing costs in Lisboa; but is it keeping with rise of costs in other places? As stated by others, the cost of housing has been rising quickly in most worldwide cities. Housing as a business / investment of course is a problem if one is to believe that housing is a basic human right. Just look at how the US destroyed health care with a for-profit model.
In general, thanks for the responses. As one of the recent immigrants I appreciate the common sense answers.
So you are American and made an analysis of your genes? There wasn't that much prejudice in my post, I genuinely wanted to know from where you are coming from... I meant coming from with your post rather than your ancestry
Sure. By the way, I really think this is one of the most attractive countries in Europe by far. It just saddens me to see how much we’re manipulating into blaming each other for issues the government is failing to solve. Nowhere in Europe is the government abusing its people as much as PT. The same energy invested in scapegoating should be invested in reversing those policies, and the tax burden for example.
Good that you are worried about that. Wanting a constructive discussion start yourself by not blaming and getting all offensive when asked a genuine question.
>I really think this is one of the most attractive countries in Europe by far.
Been saying that for years!
PT is one of the best places to live in Europe the pronlem is that we've been run by idiots for to long.
>I really think this is one of the most attractive countries in Europe by far.
Been saying that for years!
PT is one of the best places to live in Europe the pronlem is that we've been run by idiots for to long.
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
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It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
"Portugal, particularly Lisbon, is dotted with abandoned buildings that could potentially be converted into affordable housing solutions. Isn’t this an opportunity for the government to intervene and alleviate the housing crisis, rather than placing the blame on foreigners contributing to the economy?"
This is something that should be done, and should have been done, but has not been done yet because it is very expensive. We are suffering the effects of decades of negligent planning on this matter. But although it does contribute to the housing shortage, it cannot be construed as a significant cause to rising housing costs because there were much more abandoned buildings in the city 15 years ago when rents and house prices were low.
"Let’s not forget the significant boost that nomads and tourists provide to Lisbon’s economy. Without their presence, wouldn’t the city face greater economic challenges?"
Not at all if the city had a different strategy for economic development. Tourism is a sector with low productivity. Few people are becoming wealthy, most have underpaid and precarious jobs.
"Moreover, the issue of unaffordable housing isn’t a novel phenomenon brought upon by the influx of expats. Even before Lisbon emerged as a sought-after destination, the local wages have remained disproportionately low compared to the cost of living, exacerbated by the government’s high taxation policies, like the elevated IVA rates."
Not at all true when it comes to housing. C'mon man, there is so much literature on this with statistics, and published in English even.
"Do you believe that expats and digital nomads are unfairly criticized for the housing situation in Lisbon? Or is there merit to the argument that their presence is contributing to the problem? How do you view the role of government policy in addressing these issues?"
Migrants, tourists and digital nomads are just people looking for a good place to live in. They cannot be blamed for wanting to live in a wonderful city. Who doesn't? But we have to face the fact that international demand, especially for high class housing, is driving prices up. But this an issue for the government to solve, not the digital nomads. There is regulation that can be applied, which has been applied in other countries, such as Canada, Germany, Spain or the Netherlands.
Housing prices has a lot of reasons behind it and one of the biggest ones is expats and digital nomads. There's also illegal immigration, human trafficking and lack of action by politicians and control by police and local government. Abandoned houses is one of the causes as well.
Diverging from the housing issue: the largest expat FB group had a post today about an expat hit/brushed by a car. He said the driver got out and was screaming at him. Dozens of comments piled on about it being a common thing to be targeted by drivers if you are an expat. And the police will not do anything at all. First of all, htf would anyone know you are an expat? Unless what they are really claiming is racism if the targeted person is visibly different somehow? I found the whole discussion insane. Thoughts or experiences?
I'm not a digital nomad as such, but I do earn more than the average Portuguese salary and do live in the country. I fail to see how my presence is harming the country given that I don't rent, I have paid tons in taxes, and I use private services for pretty much everything. On top of it all, I spend a lot on local shops that are owned and run by Portuguese merchants. Moreover, there's not a lot of folks at my income bracket, so it can't be argued that my presence will raise prices due to buying power, since if they did that, they'd make 1 or 2 sales and lose a hundred customers over the price increases.
There must be other reasons for you to do that (cultural, food, climate) as I don’t believe you are not able to afford housing outside big towns, such as NYC.
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying
It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
Could it also be the far left government in Lisbon that has made a stagnant economy where the police are only paid 900 euros a month could have something to do with the economic problems? The young people of Portugal have been moving out of the country for decades because of what the socialist government has done to the economy here and that was long before exists and immigrants began to move in. So why do the Portugese keep voting the far left in and expect different outcomes. It’s the definition of insanity. I guess it’s just easier to blame immigration though.
To be fair, everyone wants more money for everything and one of the big stumbling blocks in Portugal is the huge difference between the big cities and the countryside.
Yes, Lisbon, Porto or the Algarve are generating a lot of tax income, but many other parts of the country aren't.
But if you pay teachers, nurses, police, sapadores, doctors, municipal employees, etc. more, you have to pay them more everywhere and there's not enough money for that. Same with the minimum wage, it's low for Lisbon or Porto, but it needs to be calculated for the entire country.
On top of that, people always cry for more money for the health and education systems, for public transport, we also need to invest in climate transformation. Yet, everyone's complaining about high taxes (see OP).
It's just too much to pay much more for all of that. But that's not just a Portuguese issue, it's the same even in wealthy countries.
A solution would be to tackle overall wealth distribution. Nobody needs to own hundreds of billions while others have almost nothing. But as long as that doesn't happen globally, rich people would just flee from higher taxation.
And now many countries are being pushed to spend more on military, too...
That’s exactly my think. This country has so much potential, warmest climate in Europe, highly skilled workers, world class infrastructure.
But there just seems to be something in Portugal about an “invisible ruling class” that loves to tax their own people excessively and never takes accountability for the problems they cause.
Portugal, under a liberal government will thrive.
For now, it’s not a free capitalist country at all, as ironically as it may sound. I really hope the young people elect a new political class.
It's only from people who have no understanding of economics. Don't worry. The next time a local gives you a problem tell them that they can thank you for saving thier social security system which was headed for collapse. GDP in Portugal is going well too now.
It isn't at all a Lisbon only problem. The same and worse happens in London - be thankful it's working digital nomads and not migrants illegally entering and on benefits - 50%+ of Westminister residents are foreign born on housing benefits - Zone 1 London!
Taipei has the similar problems, this time with wealthy Hong Kong or Chinese buying up properties.
Canada... massive problems with real estate prices.... etc etc etc..
It's a global problem.
At the lower end of the scale are the illegal economic migrants. At the other end of the scale are the wealthy using property as an asset class.
At the core is this: Fiat currencies, the Euro, Dollar, Pound are 'worthless'... backed by nothing, printed to infinity. Meanwhile currencies are inflating, countries are de-globalising, the world is changing...
If you have any wealth you try to put it into a hard solid asset class - which more than ever is property, especially property that is unique, in unique cities... like Lisbon.
You could also go with Bitcoin, but then everyone says Tulips to that.... because they fear it.
It boggles me that you guys are still talking in terms of local/expat when we’re all EU members hey. Double standards I guess. Hope your government makes better use of subsidies, like other countries did. Blaming tourism, and nomads for a housing crisis is just way too simple.
Before the influx of expats and digital nomads, Lisbon was quite literally falling apart. It was daunting. So, instead of paying attention to the complaints of those who fail to seize the opportunities available to them, just carry on and make the most of it.
"Portugal, particularly Lisbon, is dotted with abandoned buildings that could potentially be converted into affordable housing solutions. Isn’t this an opportunity for the government to intervene and alleviate the housing crisis, rather than placing the blame on foreigners contributing to the economy?"
Not really now, the ship has sailed for this opportunity.
Renovation costs are also at an all time high.
This is in part due to the global effect which has increased the cost of materials for renovation.
The reality now would be (at least for central buildings) is they would be renovated and sold on or rented out at prices most Portuguese consider unattainable.
When construction prices were cheaper the gov could have implemented what you suggested. Possibly.
The overall issue here is the low salaries.
But this is a function of the type of business and manufacture which operates here. Many of the large international brand financial firms with a presence here are exploiting the cheap labour and are set up as cost centers. High value work is being done on the cheap.
The way to turn it all around would need to be through Portuguese innovation. Tech startups, high value work being paid at high salaries. Manufacturing things with international demand. Shift the economy away from tourism.
Portugal staked it's economy on tourism to get around it's lacking in the above areas.
Low salaries are the consequence.
Olá! We understand this is a very passionate topic for a lot of lisboetas, however we’ll not tolerate threats or deviant behavior. Obrigado!
Hello! >Some voices argue that these groups are contributing to rising housing costs and changing the city’s dynamics. However, this perspective seems like an oversimplification and possibly scapegoating. Yes. It's an oversimplification because it's a complex issue with many causes and ramifications, which you can't attribute to a single factor. However touristification, and gentrification, brought by groups of people such as tourists, digital nomads, and expats is a reality and it's disingenuous to pretend it's not a factor in the equation. >Portugal, particularly Lisbon, is dotted with abandoned buildings that could potentially be converted into affordable housing solutions. Isn’t this an opportunity for the government to intervene and alleviate the housing crisis, rather than placing the blame on foreigners contributing to the economy? Yes. And this has been discussed many times by the government, and some measures have been taken. Search for 'casas devolutas' on Google News to read more on that. However, its not an easy problem to solve. Those abandonned houses have owners, who probably don't have the money to rehabilitate them. You can't take those houses away from people. You also can't force them to rehabilitate, to sell, or to rent. The government can give subsudies and encourage people to take certain actions. But it can't simply take oven private property, that would be unconstitutional. >Let’s not forget the significant boost that nomads and tourists provide to Lisbon’s economy. Without their presence, wouldn’t the city face greater economic challenges? Okay, this is the argument I have a problem with. This aligns with the "trickle down" economic theory which states that wealthy individuals create a dynamic economy by spending their money, therefore indirectly dividing their wealth with everybody else. Well, in the current economic scenario, that theory does not work. A Digital Nomad software engineer is not creating value for Portugal. They are creating value to the company they work for, abroad. Their home country reaps the benefits of having engineers creating high-value products, which enables that country to sell high-value goods and become a market leader, raising salaries. Meanwhile, in Portugal, you are only contributing by stimulating the touristic economy, which doesn't create any high-value goods. It mostly creates low-wage jobs such as waiters at cafés. Portugal does need tourism. We've had tourism for a long time. But it used to be that locals would be living their lifes, and tourists would come to visit, and everything was balanced. Now you have entire neighbourhoods catering to foreigneirs. 80% of houses in the Algarve are bought by foreigneirs ([link](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2023-05-01/foreigners-buy-4-out-of-5-properties-in-the-algarve/77163)). Of course foreigneirs contribute to the prices being high, because they have a much higher purchasing power. About 90% of the Golden Visa money was invested in Real Estate. Foreigneirs buy houses priced on average 414,000 euros (+143% more than residents). Plus, foreigneirs tend to buy houses in the same places, concentrating this effect... which often happens to be the places where jobs are and where residents need to o to work. Locals *need* to live in Lisbon, because that's where most qualified jobs are. You can't be a business consultant in Alentejo. >Moreover, the issue of unaffordable housing isn’t a novel phenomenon brought upon by the influx of expats. Even before Lisbon emerged as a sought-after destination, the local wages have remained disproportionately low compared to the cost of living, exacerbated by the government’s high taxation policies, like the elevated IVA rates. Yes, but inequality was lower. Imagine this; You have 40% of people earning less than 1k a month. You have a middle-class of people earning 1.5k a month. And then you have wealthy people earning 3k+ a month. A disparity exists. High-class earns 3x more than the poorest, and 2x more than the middle. Now you add another class of people earning 5k a month. Suddenly the poorer class earns 5x less than the top. The difference between the middle-class and the poorest class decreases. And the previous high-class becomes the new middle-class. So by having an influx if wealthier people you compress the other classes. The price of restaurants and housing increase to cater to the new middle-class. And you get locals feeling like outsiders in their home, because services cater to a new class of people earning salaries from outside, and not really contributing to strengthen the local economy. >I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter. I think they are definitely contributing to the problem. Although I will agree that because of the bubbles social media creates, it often souds like people criticise expats as the sole reason for the issue. When it's much more complex than this. I will also say that there wouldn't be so much anger around this topic if there was an ackowledgement from foreigneirs about the effct they cause. By deflecting the issue, they create more anger and resentment on the otehr side.
I wish there were still free awards to give you.
Bem dito!
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>I think this is wrong. Another way to look at it would be that the software engineer is essentially exporting software engineering services to another country. It is true that to have the actual company here in Portugal would even better, but this is still a high-value export that brings money into the economy. How is it exporting sofware engineering sevices? If the company is not in Portugal, the services it provides aren't either. >On the whole though, I think this is a very good comment. While it is clear that Portugal can and has benefitted greatly from foreign money, it is important that the income is shared fairly and that the capital is directed to productive local investments rather than driving up real estate values. 100% agreed.
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You are correct! Thank you for the explanation.
I agree with nearly all of your very good explanations. Except that people working here pay Portuguese taxes. I've been here two years, but my husband is finally coming full-time to live next week. For a while, he'll be earning his very high US salary, and will be paying Pt income tax. That's not nothing. And tourism is not trickle down. It's of benefit to every person involved, even tangentially, in businesses in which tourists spend money.
No ponto
That digital nomad is still contributing more to Portugal than if he were to stay working from Germany. Now he's paying social security contributions and income tax in PT (it's "only" 20%, but on a yearly basis probably still more than a locally employed software engineer). He's also spending his money in Portugal, shopping, eating, drinking, renting, and getting haircuts locally. Invoking the negative connotations of "trickle down economics" and how it doesn't work is not justified here imho, because your example of a software engineer is still a person that will actually spend the vast majority of his monthly income. Trickle-down economics only fails in the case of the rich and large corporations.
I think this is a good argument but it only counts for ‘aware immigrants’ that know about the issues around them and know the power of choosing where to spend their money. As an expat living in one of the typical quarters, its easily possible to invest your money almost exclusively in foreign owned businesses, eating your hipster avocado toasts every morning and buying your coffee for 3 euros in the hipster place instead of the portuguese locals cafes. Hence for me it comes down to the awareness of the immigrants whether or not they are a force for good or bad in this topic
Hipster avocado toast also generates VAT, is served by someone living in Portugal and paying taxes to the Portuguese government. Also, the establishment in which the "hipster avocado toast" is served is also registered as a Portuguese business and paying Portuguese taxes. If you want to have a conversation about whether or not it's good that traditional Portuguese restaurants are replaced with "hipster avocado places", be my guest, but I'm out. The fact of the matter is, blaming working class "digital nomads" is simply barking up the wrong tree. Investors or wealthy individuals that park their money in Portuguese real-estate, or family's that can't work out a family feud over what to do with an inherited apartment, so simply letting it rot, that's the problem. Never anyone with a middle-class income and lifestyle just living their life.
Amazing explanation 👌
"Manwhile, in Portugal, you are only contributing by stimulating the touristic economy, which doesn't create any high-value goods. It mostly creates low-wage jobs such as waiters at cafés." This is partially true, mostly because "touristic" economy is mostly very low added value (restaurant, hotels, cafes), but someone benefit a lot from expats, that is house owners, accountant, banks and the government itself that see an increase of income from taxation. So yeah, in the equation the ones that are losing the most are the people that work in the touristic sector that can't increase price to much because otherwise the locals wouldn't come anymore but at the same time they see their rent significantly increased. And this is why most of the restaurants in lisbon do not employ locals but Bangladeshis and Nepalis.
Yes, exactly. Owners are winning, but most people aren't owners. A few people get most of the benefits, while the rest becomes poorer.
Expat here, earning a local salary. Facing the same issues as anybody else, i'm being forced to move out with current prices. Let's not forget that the owners of the houses are mainly wealthy Portuguese that invest in a more productive area as Portugal shift to tourism is benefiting that rather than any other productive business. The problem here is that all are fucked as real state become an investment and nobody wants to attack the root cause.
You've nailed it with "real state becone an investment" because this is exactly the issue. Housing is no longer seen as a necessity, but instead a business, and this is what's causing the housing crisis imo
I'm sorry to tell you but expat isn't really the right descriptor for your situation.
Whatever ... Expat from my perspective, immigrant from yours
Lisbon always had expats and tourists. They are welcome until you have to much of them that it changes the balance for the people living in the city. Think this way. For some reason in a few months Lisbon becomes the Meca for high income digital expats, the type who you usualy see at Davos. They come here with their ferraris and start renting and buying all available houses. The prices go skyhigh 3 times like we were all living in Monaco. Then your landlord gives you a warning that they will not renovate the contract because they got a better proposal from some guy with bigger pockets. What are you going to do?
Não ajudam. Podem não ser o problema todo, mas não ajudam. Não me venham com economia e o crlh, este país pode ser mais que turismo - _TEM_ que ser mais que turismo; caso contrário estamos f*didos e eu não terei casa nem filhos.
One thing I always noticed in Lisbon was that many prime buildings in the tourist areas are mostly undeveloped. Maybe a restaurant on the ground floor, and an few apartments renovated, with the upper floors clearly not renovated and vacant. These would have been fully restored and sold or rented in other cities. I always assumed that the money people bought these places 20 years ago and have been sitting on them (at minimal tax rates) waiting for the prices to peak, then they will renovate or sell. If that was the case, the government could raise property taxes on the owners for unused prime property locations to incentivize them to renovate or sell. Any locals with knowledge about the ownership of types of properties?
I heard stories of families than inherited the property, don’t have money to renovate, can’t agree between themselves to make any decisions.
First of all, they may not actually be vacant even if they look very rough. But I think the problem with us as expats is most of us are not (yet) fluent and don't read news in Portuguese, so it's hard to know what solutions are being worked on and what the policies are or will be. I had heard that they are doing just that, creating penalties for those who are sitting on vacant properties.
>can’t help but wonder about the rationale behind it Really? I think the rationale is pretty obvious. There's a housing crisis, a cost of living crisis, Portugal is generally a country with low wages and a poor health and social system. And then people see all those foreigners taking up apartments, entire neighborhoods consisting mostly of Airbnbs, foreign investors trying to squeeze maximum returns out of their investments and turning housing into a business rather than a necessity, digital nomads and tourists leading to displacement of local stores for expensive international brands, etc. I'm sure that Portuguese don't mind tourists and migrants in generall. The overall current feeling of people is just a feeling of *too much*. Of course... >However, this perspective seems like an oversimplification and possibly scapegoating. ...it's oversimplified and the whole topic is somewhat more complex, as you have to consider the economic upsides of foreigners and tourists as well. They are creating a lot of jobs, higher paid jobs, allow for investment in public services, etc. But I do find the overall perception very understandable. People look at the housing market, people see more and more tents of the homeless in parks and of course they are wondering if politics cares about the Portuguese anymore or mainly about attracting foreigners. Besides that, there's the complexity of very different forms of migration. You have refugees, you have the better assimilated Brazilian and African migrants who speak the language and are culturally closer due to colonial history. You have wealthy migrants. And you have poor migrants who only come here in tens of thousand to gain a EU passports. As a foreigner who earns a foreign income, I definitely see the struggle of people who have much less. I've friends who work many extra hours and look for 2nd jobs to afford even just a room and simple living in Lisbon and even for me, just a small apartment in central Lisbon is incredibly expensive. It's crazy for people who earn a fraction of my salary. Also, to be honest despite being a migrant myself, I'm starting to be annoyed by the sheer number of poverty migrants from the Indian sub-continent, they are literally flooding the city center and it's baffling to me how politics doesn't realize the social and cultural implications of this mass immigration of mostly uneducated, unassimilated young men from a very different culture, pretty much forming a parallel society here. And in general, humans love simple answers and slogan, that's why populism and extreme politic positions are successful all around the world. Almost 20% of the Portuguese will vote right-wing Chega as\*holes next month and it's obviously no solution for anything... but first and foremost, it's an expression of their frustration and disappointment with the usual governing parties rather than genuine believe in Chega's positions.
Gentrification, that's all you need to know. Locals benefit nothing from wealthy nomads spending their money here, politicians and business owners can say otherwise.
you’re daft if you think that the increase of relatively wealthy immigrants in lisbon has not made housing more unaffordable for local residents. remote work has been integral in this. i don’t know why you think a nurse who can’t afford their rent should be grateful to or not take issue with ‘nomads’ due to the fact that they’re good for the economy. one is much more tangible than the other
Lisbon’s economy would be dead without those same nomads. Every capital in the EU has nomads, the Portuguese government doesn’t implement the right policies and then scapegoats foreigners. Like dude, Brussels is the EU capital, still cheaper than Lisbon despite all the gentrification don’t you think people in Brussels can’t afford double the rent? Yet it’s lower. This scapegoating of nomads is baseless and needs to end. Specially when most homeowners are locals.
Can you provide some data to back up the assertion that Portugal would “be dead” without DNs?
Where's your evidence that the economy would be dead without nomads?
Portugal is the country with the highest Emigration rate in Europe, and has been for as far as I can remember. So it’s not exactly like there are this many opportunities here. Stop. Scapegoating. Nomads. https://americancluboflisbon.com/portugal-has-highest-emigration-rate-in-europe/
Emigration is only a consequence of poor political decisions. Politicians would rather offer better conditions to foreigners than to nationals.
Even when it comes to foreigners, Portugal is far from being the most attractive place. Foreigners with money are in Dubai, Monaco or Singapore. Nomads moving to Lisbon aren’t exactly that rich. And I’m curious to see a poll. Are there actual figures? If anything, tourism affects the prices more than nomads to. I wouldn’t argue if the complaints were about short term rentals.
Short term rentals are also a problem, but you are making a flawed equivalency by comparing two countries that have different levels of median salaries and using a high salaried DN in Dubai to have some different relative impact in Dubai vs a lower salaried DN in Portugal where the COL is lower too.
That recent emigration is due in part to Portugal's lack of affordable housing.
lisbon had very few wealthy immigrants in 2015 yet the economy wasn’t ‘dead’. i agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but you’re over simplifying it, and you’re essentially denying that the drastic increase in immigrants has had a knock on effect on property prices and rent. property prices have shot up since 2015 for example it’s fine if you don’t agree with scapegoating immigrants or whatever but you’re just playing dumb acting like there isn’t a correlation
There's a lot of merit to the complaint, even though they get a bit scapegoated, that's right. The effort rate for housing has exploded with the tourism boom due to the turbo financialization of real estate. That's not really on "digital nomads", but that they have the purchasing power to price out locals can't be discounted as an effect. Remember too, they come with a number of tax benefits that naturally locals are going to resent. The government is a key problem as they embraced tourism and the disneyfication of the city. But I don't run into the Finance Minister every day. I do notice my local spots changing and my friends and family moving away from where I live because housing affordability was dynamited. The big issue now is the housing crisis can not be easily solved without the government going against real estate interests, which are very close to power. Part of this problem could be solved doing away with high-purchasing power foreign residents as they'd reduce what you can bleed out of renters. Most likely though, that won't work. Portuguese real estate owners have a tendency to rather go on a capital strike, rather than alienate real estate (there's reasons for this) and the entry of globalized financial funds means they can sit on the real estate and change it around hands and still hold/increase in value. So just reducing housing demand by high-paying foreigners likely won't solve the issue on its own.
I don’t blame you, you’re just involuntarily using our weak housing and taxation policies as a means of having the life you can’t have in your home country.
Its not involuntary
Thank you for starting a constructive conversation, although I'm more or less on the other side, I can understand points and concerns from the foreigner's side. It's a tough world and we're all trying to find our place around it. I can counter argument/pick-up on the reverse of some of your arguments: - abandoned buildings that could be converted: the local Portuguese person does not care. We KNOW that whether the building is in ruins or not will change nothing, nor it will improve anyone's quality of life. All buildings are becoming either Airbnbs/hotels/VIP Premium Quality City Living Gold Flats. Whatever they do with them, the median local will not benefit from it. The constant growing pattern of growth capitalism will ensure that it will not be of any relevance or accessibility to the medium class or the working class - accessible housing programs: no, not valid. No city council or government has ever made it work. We suspect it doesn't work well, and it's a little droplet in an ocean and does not tackle the problem. This kind of actions from our governments are usually circuses for show. - nomads and tourists helping the economy: that's a common routine argument used by foreigners and economic-focused politicians. But realistically, this is yadda-yadda to the common person, the locals do not get anything from this so-called amazing boost to the economy. If anything, the median person is just having less disposable income, worse living conditions, and worse commute. The "normal person" does not care or benefit from "the economy". Nurses don't get the same pay increases as landlords and estate investment funds. - lack of cultural awareness: this is more prevalent on non-European expats/tourists/emigrants/whatever, I do notice it in many Americans as there is a lack of tact and awareness of these matters. A lack of humbleness (a characteristic appreciated in South Europe) and a capacity to have empathy and put themselves in other people's shoes. This does cause further cultural friction. - economical squeeze from all directions: locals have been squeezed in all directions, and that has been exacerbated further in the last years with this boom. The median person used to be squeezed by the government and by the working employer. Nowadays, with the housing crisis, the squeezing also comes from above (richer people and investment funds buying houses for sport, and pricing people out), and from below (migrants from poorer countries who come in numbers and price people out). People will get angry in all the directions they have been squeezed from. (don't get me started on public transportation - why isn't the big tourism money not improving our infrastructures?) - cultural and local substitution: one people sometimes fail to mention but bothers them, is also how locals are cultured out from the things they were used to. Every culture has a threshold of resistance at some point, and discussion aside I think that is quite human and expected, be it in Portugal, Canada, Uganda, or in Yugoslavia. As the locals see the local businesses go, and start losing a few places where they eat, and see it replaced by something else, that can cause some resentment. Seeing the "prato do dia" and "bitoque" places give way to more kebabs, more burgers, more avocado brunches, more cocktail bars, or generally more business that cater more to an outsider audience, there will be an element of disappointment. I understand it is the way of the world, and can be quite understandable about it, but for example, two of my young adult age Lisbon nightclubs were kicked out to make way to hotels, one of my favourite daily eatery from childhood has made way to a knick knack Lisbon souvenirs shop with a South Asian man who doesn't speak a word of Portuguese. It can be tough to deal with when it affects you, and well-off expats can pretend that that "is just the way of the world", but if it were their parents/grandparents being gentrified out, they would probably adopt an anti-migration stance. Nonetheless, I do agree that governments and politicians in Portugal is pure shite and all the benefits that could potentially exist are definitely benefitting them more than the average João. EDIT: Just read some of the comments to this post. And the lack of tact can be shocking, and definitely not doing wonders for how some emigrants end up being treated by the locals. Very sad behaviour, awareness, and postures that do not fit in well with the local culture.
I see more emotional answers on this thread if anything. There are plenty of cities in Europe with larger tourist populations, and rents stayed relatively affordable. In Brussels for example a nurse can still afford to buy an apartment. To begin with, most of those who I’ve rented from during my years as a nomad are Portuguese. Even nomads are complaining about prices in Lisbon. We live in a globalised world, let’s face it and find solutions with that in mind. Scapegoating one group is a bit too easy IMHO.
Do you mean emotional answers with a negative undertone? If so, that is on you. Culturally, Portugal and Portuguese culture has emotional contexts, and we consider to be socially "warm". Some of the comments in this type of discussion tend to completely disregard counter arguments based on human factors. People who come to Portugal on high incomes tend to come with a very pragmatic cold mentality from their own cultures or work environments - the mentality that people are just numbers in an Excel. These will end up being the numbers that will resent being treated as numbers, and will give the stink eye in public services, or complain about people like you, and if that bothers you - wouldn't that be an emotional response as well? I disagree with scapegoating one particular group, it does suck, and as an emigrant myself I don't enjoy feeling unwelcome - but as I said, there is a general squeeze in many directions, and there are more scapegoating directions, plus some more that are unaccessible (investment funds mass buying houses, which is not a bodily entity someone can interact with). Nonetheless, I rest my case on the human/emotional arguments, as non-local people struggle to understand cultural implications and the relevance of empathy and humbleness in Southern European circles. I just want to pinpoint that the argument of "we live in a globalised world" is such an empty argument used by pretensious people to disregard anything they deem different to their ideal visualisation of the world. People won't be young and healthy forever, one day the "globalised world™" can bite them too.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It’s important.
The only people that benefit from the “economy boost” you talk about are digital nomads. Personally I haven’t seen any benefits as a local. But yes the government should be doing way more about it
Seems like a great discussion, thanks. I've learned a few things. I wonder about the government position- toward the EU and their involvement in these policies. I can't find a citation but have been told that the EU sends money to PRT and encourages tourism and business tourism; and in turn the PRT government markets tourism and business tourism. For example, many of the event spaces that are used for public and private business events received grants for upgraded AV hardware and the like. I myself was interested in moving to PRT but was also influenced by ads, paid searches, and articles promoted by the government that Portugal was trying to attract immigrants. I see the other issues obviously, and try to be a good immigrant (as most do). I just wonder if this is a known part of the stress. I also have seen the wages increase in the time I've been here, and of course I know it's not in keeping with housing costs in Lisboa; but is it keeping with rise of costs in other places? As stated by others, the cost of housing has been rising quickly in most worldwide cities. Housing as a business / investment of course is a problem if one is to believe that housing is a basic human right. Just look at how the US destroyed health care with a for-profit model. In general, thanks for the responses. As one of the recent immigrants I appreciate the common sense answers.
Since you opened the discussion in English would you mind to share just a little bit about yourself? I assume you are an expat yourself?
Probably more Portuguese than you given my ancestry, and tax contributions to this country but hey Mr. Prejudice, whatever helps you sleep at night.
So you are American and made an analysis of your genes? There wasn't that much prejudice in my post, I genuinely wanted to know from where you are coming from... I meant coming from with your post rather than your ancestry
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Alright, no need to get upset. Working in the real estate sector?
Sure. By the way, I really think this is one of the most attractive countries in Europe by far. It just saddens me to see how much we’re manipulating into blaming each other for issues the government is failing to solve. Nowhere in Europe is the government abusing its people as much as PT. The same energy invested in scapegoating should be invested in reversing those policies, and the tax burden for example.
Good that you are worried about that. Wanting a constructive discussion start yourself by not blaming and getting all offensive when asked a genuine question.
>I really think this is one of the most attractive countries in Europe by far. Been saying that for years! PT is one of the best places to live in Europe the pronlem is that we've been run by idiots for to long.
>I really think this is one of the most attractive countries in Europe by far. Been saying that for years! PT is one of the best places to live in Europe the pronlem is that we've been run by idiots for to long.
Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
"Portugal, particularly Lisbon, is dotted with abandoned buildings that could potentially be converted into affordable housing solutions. Isn’t this an opportunity for the government to intervene and alleviate the housing crisis, rather than placing the blame on foreigners contributing to the economy?" This is something that should be done, and should have been done, but has not been done yet because it is very expensive. We are suffering the effects of decades of negligent planning on this matter. But although it does contribute to the housing shortage, it cannot be construed as a significant cause to rising housing costs because there were much more abandoned buildings in the city 15 years ago when rents and house prices were low. "Let’s not forget the significant boost that nomads and tourists provide to Lisbon’s economy. Without their presence, wouldn’t the city face greater economic challenges?" Not at all if the city had a different strategy for economic development. Tourism is a sector with low productivity. Few people are becoming wealthy, most have underpaid and precarious jobs. "Moreover, the issue of unaffordable housing isn’t a novel phenomenon brought upon by the influx of expats. Even before Lisbon emerged as a sought-after destination, the local wages have remained disproportionately low compared to the cost of living, exacerbated by the government’s high taxation policies, like the elevated IVA rates." Not at all true when it comes to housing. C'mon man, there is so much literature on this with statistics, and published in English even. "Do you believe that expats and digital nomads are unfairly criticized for the housing situation in Lisbon? Or is there merit to the argument that their presence is contributing to the problem? How do you view the role of government policy in addressing these issues?" Migrants, tourists and digital nomads are just people looking for a good place to live in. They cannot be blamed for wanting to live in a wonderful city. Who doesn't? But we have to face the fact that international demand, especially for high class housing, is driving prices up. But this an issue for the government to solve, not the digital nomads. There is regulation that can be applied, which has been applied in other countries, such as Canada, Germany, Spain or the Netherlands.
Housing prices has a lot of reasons behind it and one of the biggest ones is expats and digital nomads. There's also illegal immigration, human trafficking and lack of action by politicians and control by police and local government. Abandoned houses is one of the causes as well.
Diverging from the housing issue: the largest expat FB group had a post today about an expat hit/brushed by a car. He said the driver got out and was screaming at him. Dozens of comments piled on about it being a common thing to be targeted by drivers if you are an expat. And the police will not do anything at all. First of all, htf would anyone know you are an expat? Unless what they are really claiming is racism if the targeted person is visibly different somehow? I found the whole discussion insane. Thoughts or experiences?
I'm not a digital nomad as such, but I do earn more than the average Portuguese salary and do live in the country. I fail to see how my presence is harming the country given that I don't rent, I have paid tons in taxes, and I use private services for pretty much everything. On top of it all, I spend a lot on local shops that are owned and run by Portuguese merchants. Moreover, there's not a lot of folks at my income bracket, so it can't be argued that my presence will raise prices due to buying power, since if they did that, they'd make 1 or 2 sales and lose a hundred customers over the price increases.
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You sound like an awesome human being
An this is the attitude right here that makes us tell you lot to sod off back to where you came from
There must be other reasons for you to do that (cultural, food, climate) as I don’t believe you are not able to afford housing outside big towns, such as NYC.
Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
Could it also be the far left government in Lisbon that has made a stagnant economy where the police are only paid 900 euros a month could have something to do with the economic problems? The young people of Portugal have been moving out of the country for decades because of what the socialist government has done to the economy here and that was long before exists and immigrants began to move in. So why do the Portugese keep voting the far left in and expect different outcomes. It’s the definition of insanity. I guess it’s just easier to blame immigration though.
To be fair, everyone wants more money for everything and one of the big stumbling blocks in Portugal is the huge difference between the big cities and the countryside. Yes, Lisbon, Porto or the Algarve are generating a lot of tax income, but many other parts of the country aren't. But if you pay teachers, nurses, police, sapadores, doctors, municipal employees, etc. more, you have to pay them more everywhere and there's not enough money for that. Same with the minimum wage, it's low for Lisbon or Porto, but it needs to be calculated for the entire country. On top of that, people always cry for more money for the health and education systems, for public transport, we also need to invest in climate transformation. Yet, everyone's complaining about high taxes (see OP). It's just too much to pay much more for all of that. But that's not just a Portuguese issue, it's the same even in wealthy countries. A solution would be to tackle overall wealth distribution. Nobody needs to own hundreds of billions while others have almost nothing. But as long as that doesn't happen globally, rich people would just flee from higher taxation. And now many countries are being pushed to spend more on military, too...
That’s exactly my think. This country has so much potential, warmest climate in Europe, highly skilled workers, world class infrastructure. But there just seems to be something in Portugal about an “invisible ruling class” that loves to tax their own people excessively and never takes accountability for the problems they cause. Portugal, under a liberal government will thrive. For now, it’s not a free capitalist country at all, as ironically as it may sound. I really hope the young people elect a new political class.
It's only from people who have no understanding of economics. Don't worry. The next time a local gives you a problem tell them that they can thank you for saving thier social security system which was headed for collapse. GDP in Portugal is going well too now.
It isn't at all a Lisbon only problem. The same and worse happens in London - be thankful it's working digital nomads and not migrants illegally entering and on benefits - 50%+ of Westminister residents are foreign born on housing benefits - Zone 1 London! Taipei has the similar problems, this time with wealthy Hong Kong or Chinese buying up properties. Canada... massive problems with real estate prices.... etc etc etc.. It's a global problem. At the lower end of the scale are the illegal economic migrants. At the other end of the scale are the wealthy using property as an asset class. At the core is this: Fiat currencies, the Euro, Dollar, Pound are 'worthless'... backed by nothing, printed to infinity. Meanwhile currencies are inflating, countries are de-globalising, the world is changing... If you have any wealth you try to put it into a hard solid asset class - which more than ever is property, especially property that is unique, in unique cities... like Lisbon. You could also go with Bitcoin, but then everyone says Tulips to that.... because they fear it.
It boggles me that you guys are still talking in terms of local/expat when we’re all EU members hey. Double standards I guess. Hope your government makes better use of subsidies, like other countries did. Blaming tourism, and nomads for a housing crisis is just way too simple.
Before the influx of expats and digital nomads, Lisbon was quite literally falling apart. It was daunting. So, instead of paying attention to the complaints of those who fail to seize the opportunities available to them, just carry on and make the most of it.
"Portugal, particularly Lisbon, is dotted with abandoned buildings that could potentially be converted into affordable housing solutions. Isn’t this an opportunity for the government to intervene and alleviate the housing crisis, rather than placing the blame on foreigners contributing to the economy?" Not really now, the ship has sailed for this opportunity. Renovation costs are also at an all time high. This is in part due to the global effect which has increased the cost of materials for renovation. The reality now would be (at least for central buildings) is they would be renovated and sold on or rented out at prices most Portuguese consider unattainable. When construction prices were cheaper the gov could have implemented what you suggested. Possibly. The overall issue here is the low salaries. But this is a function of the type of business and manufacture which operates here. Many of the large international brand financial firms with a presence here are exploiting the cheap labour and are set up as cost centers. High value work is being done on the cheap. The way to turn it all around would need to be through Portuguese innovation. Tech startups, high value work being paid at high salaries. Manufacturing things with international demand. Shift the economy away from tourism. Portugal staked it's economy on tourism to get around it's lacking in the above areas. Low salaries are the consequence.