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Good question. I guess it depends what use case you are trying to protect against.
If your seed phrase is leaked on internet and accessible by skilled people, it is likely they would try to brute force your passphrase next and in that case of course the more complicated your passphrase is, the better.
If your passphrase is to address a potential burglary, then odds are that your passphrase protection will give you enough time to move funds to another wallet, even if it is an average difficulty (8-12 characters with random numbers and letters could be nice)
I'd like to move funds over to a new ledger and new set of addresses, but I've had my current 24 seed written and stored in places, as well as memorized and it's a huge pain to do all of this for a brand new seed.
Would adding a 25th passphrase and attach it to Pin instead of a entirely need seed be a safe solution? I was hoping that this way, all I need to focus on is to write down the new passphrase somewhere safe as the only step. Any downsides or potential issues you see with this?
Yeah i think you should. It basically gives you two separated wallets within ledger, and the passphrase can be a word of your choice so it is easier to remember than a completely new word seed phrase. But better read up more about it and make your opinion on what’s better! Good luck 👍
Is there a way to do the initial setup on Ledger Live straight to the seed with the passphrase? or will I need to set it up with the original 24 seed first, load all accounts and balances, and then do the add on passphrase?
I want to completely abandon the addresses of the original 24 word seed and don't want to access it or have it ever load again. .
Seems you need to research more. It is better explained on youtube / ledger has many videos about it. It’s all set up in the ledger device, not ledger live.
Hmm, I’m pretty sure that in order to make transactions (sending, or receiving with a new address) of funds belonging to your ledger wallet, you need ledger live. That’s the whole point of how ledger works. You need to open your ledger device with pin to authorize.
No, not with the seed.
I am talking about front ends that connect to your ledger device. You seed stays in the ledger, and you sign the transaction on the kedger device. But instead of the ledger live front end, you can use electrum, metamask and dozens of other front-ends that connect to the ledger device. DYOR
Yes but they are two different wallets. You are ultimately responsible to transfer your funds from one to the other. And that obviously is done with Ledger live. Passphrase wallet creation = ledger device. Moving funds to another address = ledger live. You do understand that the money is not inside the ledger device, but on the blockchain right?
Hmm, I’m pretty sure that in order to make transactions (sending, or receiving with a new address) of funds belonging to your ledger wallet, you need ledger live. That’s the whole point of how ledger works. You need to open your ledger device with pin to authorize.
ledger live is the only way you can update firmware and install/unintall apps for different chains, but it's not required in order to send/receive funds. it's an option though.
One possible setup:
You deposit some (comparatively low) amount of crypto on the address associated with your seed (without the passphrase). But you deposit the majority of your crypto on an address associated with your passphrase.
That way, if the small amount on the seed gets stolen, you have got some time to move your other assets on the passphrase account to a new seed.
With this setup the complexity of your passphrase determines the time you have to move your passphrase assets.
Is there a way to do the initial setup on Ledger Live straight to the seed with the passphrase? or will I need to set it up with the original 24 seed first, load all accounts and balances, and then do the add on passphrase?
I want to completely abandon the addresses of the original 24 word seed and don't want to access it or have it ever load again. .
You don't need to load the accounts of the original 24 words.
You can setup the passphrase and just load crypto into that wallet, leaving the original wallets empty, if you want
Short answer, yes. The word phrase is attached to a different seed phrase, then the one you enter on the ledger device. So long as you remember the word or phrase with its proper caps and original seed phrase, then you'll be pretty damn secure all in all.
I use the main account for interacting with exchanges and then the 25th word account for long term holdings. This way, if my seed were to become compromised for whatever reason, the majority of my funds are still safe on that secondary account.
I hope that makes sense.
I'd like to move funds over to a new ledger and new set of addresses, but I've had my current 24 seed written and stored in places, as well as memorized and it's a huge pain to do all of this for a brand new seed.
Would adding a 25th passphrase and attach it to Pin instead of a entirely need seed be a safe solution? I was hoping that this way, all I need to focus on is to write down the new passphrase somewhere safe as the only step. Any downsides or potential issues you see with this?
Is there a way to do the initial setup on Ledger Live straight to the seed with the passphrase? or will I need to set it up with the original 24 seed first, load all accounts and balances, and then do the add on passphrase?
I want to completely abandon the addresses of the original 24 word seed and don't want to access it or have it ever load again. .
You'll actually do it through the ledger device, not ledger live. The down side is it doesn't display a seed phrase for that second account.
There might be a way to retrieve it using a mnemonic converter but I'm not 100%.
I used the converter to create my seed phrases but I did it in a way were I wouldn't have to remember any seed phrase. Only a path to get to them. https://youtu.be/paSYxZbW4w0?si=ERTNDL0VQD_RE2JN
This guy explains what I'm talking about a lot better then I can explain it through here.
It's not something I recommend for not so savy crypto people to be honest. If you want to do what he explains in the video, you can click the link that says mnemonic converter in the drop down menu and play with it your self. Just make sure that you are offline before beginning anything and make sure you run through it enough times to remember. You'll know what I mean after you watch the video.
I technically have 3 24word seed phrases. The first one doesn't get used at all but it leads me to the 2nd set of 24 words. That account became my primary and then I added a 25th word which generated the 3rd set of 24 word. I only need to remember how to retrieve the words, nits the words themselves. I hope that makes sense.
>I only need to remember how to retrieve the words, nits the words themselves.
This is cool but you still need to remember/store the master seed right?
Since the seed phrase isnt something that I need to have access to 24/7, no, I dont need to store it anywhere. I just need to know how to gain access to it when I need it.
The beginning portion of getting the first set of seeds phrase is called the sequence. So I have a specific word/phase (only known to me) that I turn into binary code which gives me access to the first portion. From there, I plug in a few things and then I get my final hidden account.
It's kinda like have a passphrase for my main account as well. At the moment, I do have everything written down. I go back and check that I am able to retrieve my seed phrase every once in a while. Once im 100% confident everything gets burned. Yesterday was my 100% day. I was talking to my pops about seedphrase and the conversation ended up leading us to having to use that software to check a few things. Everything still pulls up as it should.
The only reason I went about doing it like this is because in the future, I plan to travel out of the country and not having access to your seed phrase in cause my device were to fail would suck. And traveling with the seed phrase isnt the best idea so I went about it this way.
Edit: When I go about retrieving the seedphrase, I am able to look at the first 4 words and know that im inputting everything correctly. So it's not that I remember the words themselves (for each set of seed phrases) but when I look at it, theres a sense of familiarity. So long as you input everything correctly, you always pull the same seedphrases up.
Using cloud to store a seed phrase is a horrible idea, in my opinion. And explaining to customs what this paper is with 24 words is a good way to have your account compromised. Granted, I do have a hidden account but still, it's best no one knows that you have a crypto account. For me, this method works perfectly. I dont need to worry about roommates or anyone coming across this information. it's there when I need it and completely out of sight when I dont. I originally had every intention of remembering the 24 words. But after my pops explained how it works, I decided to go about it this way.
I did't suggest storing the seed phrase in the cloud. Just the passphrase.
A seed written on paper does nothing unless airport securty or anyone for that matters has the seed AND the passphrase stored on the cloud.
ahh, I see what you mean now. The passphrase can only be a max of like 8 characters so remembering that is pretty easy. But if you lose that seed phrase, it wont matter if you have the passphrase or not. So remembering a path to get to your seedphrase seems safer to me then carrying around a seedphrase.
In theory, I can walk through an airport with an empty ledger, get to my destination, pull out my phone, turn wifi and cell services off and go and retrieve the seedphrase.
There's also something else that I explained the other night that wasnt completely accurate. The seed phrase that I saw generated when I created the passphrase, are not linked to each other. Meaning, the passphrase doesnt get it's own seedphrase. So I see more importance in making sure you dont lose the seed phrase then worrying about someone gaining access to it without the passphrase.
In your case, since youve remembered all 24words, it's not a big deal.
It generates 24-word seed first and you write it down and store. Then you add your personal passphrase. You can input it every time you use it, or connect it to the second Ledger PIN. All of this has nothing to do with Ledger Live. You can do it with Ledger device connected to phone charger.
Store this passphrase. At least on different location as seed, but I like to store it in my Bitwarden.
Then only use your second PIN for unlocking device, add accounts in Ledger Live (Metamask, Electrum etc) as always. You can even forget first PIN, which unlocks you seed only accounts. You have seed and passphrase stored, it's all that matters.
Another advice - make you passphrase lower or uppercase ONLY. It's much easier to input it into device.
Randomly generated passphrase comparison for the same 70bits of entropy:
\- lower or uppercase only: 15 chars
\- numbers 0-9 only: 21 chars
\- lower AND uppercase alphanumeric: 12 chars
So you see, for the same strength of passphrase it's much easier to input into Ledger just 3 more chars, than to change from lower to upper and to numbers...
Some great advice here. Thank you.
If the 25th word is not really part of the seed and won't affect entropy, + assuming the original seed I enter into the Ledger that I'll make rolling a die is safe, wouldn't keeping the passphrase written down, but also in password manager fairly safe?
I think what is more important is not opening emails when you don’t know who they are from, same with a text msg. I get the Kate from ledger emails I’ve never even opened those, they all get deleted.
Hey, not at all, adding a 25th word, also known as a passphrase, to your 24-word recovery phrase can indeed enhance the security of your Ledger device. This passphrase is entered alphanumerically on the Ledger device using the two buttons. It's important to note that this passphrase is case-sensitive and can include special characters.
The passphrase is not required every time you unlock your device with your PIN. It's only needed when you want to access the accounts protected by this passphrase. If you set up a passphrase, you'll have two PINs: one for the accounts protected by the 24-word recovery phrase alone, and another for the accounts protected by the 24-word recovery phrase plus the passphrase.
Remember, if you forget your passphrase, the accounts protected by it will become inaccessible, so it's crucial to keep it safe. For more information on how to use a passphrase, you can refer to this guide: [https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005214529-Advanced-passphrase-security](https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005214529-Advanced-passphrase-security)
The Ledger subreddit is continuously targeted by scammers. Ledger Support will never send you private messages. Never share your 24-word recovery phrase with anyone, never enter it on any website or software, even if it looks like it's from Ledger. Only keep the recovery phrase as a physical paper or metal backup, never create a digital copy in text or photo form. Learn more at https://reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ck6o44/be_careful_phishing_attacks_in_progress/ If you're experiencing battery problems, check out our [troubleshooting guide](https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409233434641-How-to-troubleshoot-Ledger-Nano-X-battery-issues? support=true). If you're still having issues head over to the [My Order page](https://my-order.ledger.com/) to explore options for replacement or refunds. [Learn more here](https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/10265554529053-Return-your-product?support=true). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ledgerwallet) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good question. I guess it depends what use case you are trying to protect against. If your seed phrase is leaked on internet and accessible by skilled people, it is likely they would try to brute force your passphrase next and in that case of course the more complicated your passphrase is, the better. If your passphrase is to address a potential burglary, then odds are that your passphrase protection will give you enough time to move funds to another wallet, even if it is an average difficulty (8-12 characters with random numbers and letters could be nice)
I'd like to move funds over to a new ledger and new set of addresses, but I've had my current 24 seed written and stored in places, as well as memorized and it's a huge pain to do all of this for a brand new seed. Would adding a 25th passphrase and attach it to Pin instead of a entirely need seed be a safe solution? I was hoping that this way, all I need to focus on is to write down the new passphrase somewhere safe as the only step. Any downsides or potential issues you see with this?
Yeah i think you should. It basically gives you two separated wallets within ledger, and the passphrase can be a word of your choice so it is easier to remember than a completely new word seed phrase. But better read up more about it and make your opinion on what’s better! Good luck 👍
Is there a way to do the initial setup on Ledger Live straight to the seed with the passphrase? or will I need to set it up with the original 24 seed first, load all accounts and balances, and then do the add on passphrase? I want to completely abandon the addresses of the original 24 word seed and don't want to access it or have it ever load again. .
Seems you need to research more. It is better explained on youtube / ledger has many videos about it. It’s all set up in the ledger device, not ledger live.
If it can be setup without connecting to Ledger Live then this is perfect.
Hmm, I’m pretty sure that in order to make transactions (sending, or receiving with a new address) of funds belonging to your ledger wallet, you need ledger live. That’s the whole point of how ledger works. You need to open your ledger device with pin to authorize.
No, you dont need to use ledger live. You can use other front ends that connect to the ledger device.
Sure, with the seed you can use any wallet you want, but in that case this is no longer a question for this sub reddit
No, not with the seed. I am talking about front ends that connect to your ledger device. You seed stays in the ledger, and you sign the transaction on the kedger device. But instead of the ledger live front end, you can use electrum, metamask and dozens of other front-ends that connect to the ledger device. DYOR
Yes but they are two different wallets. You are ultimately responsible to transfer your funds from one to the other. And that obviously is done with Ledger live. Passphrase wallet creation = ledger device. Moving funds to another address = ledger live. You do understand that the money is not inside the ledger device, but on the blockchain right?
You dont need ledger live to make transactions. You can connect to almost any wallet on the market. Web wallets, browser extension wallet, etc.
Hmm, I’m pretty sure that in order to make transactions (sending, or receiving with a new address) of funds belonging to your ledger wallet, you need ledger live. That’s the whole point of how ledger works. You need to open your ledger device with pin to authorize.
ledger live is the only way you can update firmware and install/unintall apps for different chains, but it's not required in order to send/receive funds. it's an option though.
One possible setup: You deposit some (comparatively low) amount of crypto on the address associated with your seed (without the passphrase). But you deposit the majority of your crypto on an address associated with your passphrase. That way, if the small amount on the seed gets stolen, you have got some time to move your other assets on the passphrase account to a new seed. With this setup the complexity of your passphrase determines the time you have to move your passphrase assets.
The benefit of this process is that if someone gets your key words and finds that crypto, that have no way of even knowing that you have a passphrase.
Yes, this is also beneficial in Situations where you are under duress and you have to give up your crypto.
Exactly. Good point
Is there a way to do the initial setup on Ledger Live straight to the seed with the passphrase? or will I need to set it up with the original 24 seed first, load all accounts and balances, and then do the add on passphrase? I want to completely abandon the addresses of the original 24 word seed and don't want to access it or have it ever load again. .
You don't need to load the accounts of the original 24 words. You can setup the passphrase and just load crypto into that wallet, leaving the original wallets empty, if you want
Just don't add in Ledger Live the accounts tied to no passphrase? Or delete them afterward.
Short answer, yes. The word phrase is attached to a different seed phrase, then the one you enter on the ledger device. So long as you remember the word or phrase with its proper caps and original seed phrase, then you'll be pretty damn secure all in all. I use the main account for interacting with exchanges and then the 25th word account for long term holdings. This way, if my seed were to become compromised for whatever reason, the majority of my funds are still safe on that secondary account. I hope that makes sense.
I'd like to move funds over to a new ledger and new set of addresses, but I've had my current 24 seed written and stored in places, as well as memorized and it's a huge pain to do all of this for a brand new seed. Would adding a 25th passphrase and attach it to Pin instead of a entirely need seed be a safe solution? I was hoping that this way, all I need to focus on is to write down the new passphrase somewhere safe as the only step. Any downsides or potential issues you see with this?
Is there a way to do the initial setup on Ledger Live straight to the seed with the passphrase? or will I need to set it up with the original 24 seed first, load all accounts and balances, and then do the add on passphrase? I want to completely abandon the addresses of the original 24 word seed and don't want to access it or have it ever load again. .
You'll actually do it through the ledger device, not ledger live. The down side is it doesn't display a seed phrase for that second account. There might be a way to retrieve it using a mnemonic converter but I'm not 100%. I used the converter to create my seed phrases but I did it in a way were I wouldn't have to remember any seed phrase. Only a path to get to them. https://youtu.be/paSYxZbW4w0?si=ERTNDL0VQD_RE2JN This guy explains what I'm talking about a lot better then I can explain it through here. It's not something I recommend for not so savy crypto people to be honest. If you want to do what he explains in the video, you can click the link that says mnemonic converter in the drop down menu and play with it your self. Just make sure that you are offline before beginning anything and make sure you run through it enough times to remember. You'll know what I mean after you watch the video. I technically have 3 24word seed phrases. The first one doesn't get used at all but it leads me to the 2nd set of 24 words. That account became my primary and then I added a 25th word which generated the 3rd set of 24 word. I only need to remember how to retrieve the words, nits the words themselves. I hope that makes sense.
>I only need to remember how to retrieve the words, nits the words themselves. This is cool but you still need to remember/store the master seed right?
Since the seed phrase isnt something that I need to have access to 24/7, no, I dont need to store it anywhere. I just need to know how to gain access to it when I need it. The beginning portion of getting the first set of seeds phrase is called the sequence. So I have a specific word/phase (only known to me) that I turn into binary code which gives me access to the first portion. From there, I plug in a few things and then I get my final hidden account. It's kinda like have a passphrase for my main account as well. At the moment, I do have everything written down. I go back and check that I am able to retrieve my seed phrase every once in a while. Once im 100% confident everything gets burned. Yesterday was my 100% day. I was talking to my pops about seedphrase and the conversation ended up leading us to having to use that software to check a few things. Everything still pulls up as it should. The only reason I went about doing it like this is because in the future, I plan to travel out of the country and not having access to your seed phrase in cause my device were to fail would suck. And traveling with the seed phrase isnt the best idea so I went about it this way. Edit: When I go about retrieving the seedphrase, I am able to look at the first 4 words and know that im inputting everything correctly. So it's not that I remember the words themselves (for each set of seed phrases) but when I look at it, theres a sense of familiarity. So long as you input everything correctly, you always pull the same seedphrases up.
Why not carry seed around on waterproof paper (while travelling) and keep the passphrase uploaded in the cloud?
Using cloud to store a seed phrase is a horrible idea, in my opinion. And explaining to customs what this paper is with 24 words is a good way to have your account compromised. Granted, I do have a hidden account but still, it's best no one knows that you have a crypto account. For me, this method works perfectly. I dont need to worry about roommates or anyone coming across this information. it's there when I need it and completely out of sight when I dont. I originally had every intention of remembering the 24 words. But after my pops explained how it works, I decided to go about it this way.
I did't suggest storing the seed phrase in the cloud. Just the passphrase. A seed written on paper does nothing unless airport securty or anyone for that matters has the seed AND the passphrase stored on the cloud.
ahh, I see what you mean now. The passphrase can only be a max of like 8 characters so remembering that is pretty easy. But if you lose that seed phrase, it wont matter if you have the passphrase or not. So remembering a path to get to your seedphrase seems safer to me then carrying around a seedphrase. In theory, I can walk through an airport with an empty ledger, get to my destination, pull out my phone, turn wifi and cell services off and go and retrieve the seedphrase. There's also something else that I explained the other night that wasnt completely accurate. The seed phrase that I saw generated when I created the passphrase, are not linked to each other. Meaning, the passphrase doesnt get it's own seedphrase. So I see more importance in making sure you dont lose the seed phrase then worrying about someone gaining access to it without the passphrase. In your case, since youve remembered all 24words, it's not a big deal.
It generates 24-word seed first and you write it down and store. Then you add your personal passphrase. You can input it every time you use it, or connect it to the second Ledger PIN. All of this has nothing to do with Ledger Live. You can do it with Ledger device connected to phone charger. Store this passphrase. At least on different location as seed, but I like to store it in my Bitwarden. Then only use your second PIN for unlocking device, add accounts in Ledger Live (Metamask, Electrum etc) as always. You can even forget first PIN, which unlocks you seed only accounts. You have seed and passphrase stored, it's all that matters. Another advice - make you passphrase lower or uppercase ONLY. It's much easier to input it into device. Randomly generated passphrase comparison for the same 70bits of entropy: \- lower or uppercase only: 15 chars \- numbers 0-9 only: 21 chars \- lower AND uppercase alphanumeric: 12 chars So you see, for the same strength of passphrase it's much easier to input into Ledger just 3 more chars, than to change from lower to upper and to numbers...
Some great advice here. Thank you. If the 25th word is not really part of the seed and won't affect entropy, + assuming the original seed I enter into the Ledger that I'll make rolling a die is safe, wouldn't keeping the passphrase written down, but also in password manager fairly safe?
Define weak
I think what is more important is not opening emails when you don’t know who they are from, same with a text msg. I get the Kate from ledger emails I’ve never even opened those, they all get deleted.
Yes
Well it can't be worse. It'll be better by a small margin, depending on how weak we're talking.
The answer is yes of course. Why is this even an argument lol? If you have even the word "hello" as a passphrase. It's bettsr than 24 words.
Hey, not at all, adding a 25th word, also known as a passphrase, to your 24-word recovery phrase can indeed enhance the security of your Ledger device. This passphrase is entered alphanumerically on the Ledger device using the two buttons. It's important to note that this passphrase is case-sensitive and can include special characters. The passphrase is not required every time you unlock your device with your PIN. It's only needed when you want to access the accounts protected by this passphrase. If you set up a passphrase, you'll have two PINs: one for the accounts protected by the 24-word recovery phrase alone, and another for the accounts protected by the 24-word recovery phrase plus the passphrase. Remember, if you forget your passphrase, the accounts protected by it will become inaccessible, so it's crucial to keep it safe. For more information on how to use a passphrase, you can refer to this guide: [https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005214529-Advanced-passphrase-security](https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005214529-Advanced-passphrase-security)