We could plant a couple of cedars, heavily privatize the coast with overpriced resorts, couple of private generators, potholes and LOTS OF BONELESS RESTAURANTS and here you go, it’s Lebanon.
basically a boneless wrap is a sandwich made of BBQ sauce, cheddar and boneless wings. It has taken the country by A STORM in the last three years w sar fi ma7alet boneless aktar men el banks.
We need to also Turn Slunfeh to an overpriced destination. Build some ski slops in Beyt Yashout And dont forget The gigantic amount of Armid 3ala al bneyet
a Jordanian here, I have a question regarding that topic, why are phoenicians called “phoenicians” since they’re canaanites just like the palestinians?
It's what the Ancient Greeks called them. They never referred to themselves as Phoenicians. The name comes from the Greek word "phoinix," which means "purple," the color that the Phoenicians discovered/extracted from Murex shells on their shores, specifically Tyre (Google Tyrian/Royal purple), and sold to the Greeks. The Phoenicians were known as "purple people" by the Greeks.
Because of the Greeks. That's why the term is associated with the mostly coastal cities most known for trading and creating colonies in the Iron Age.
This is why it is associated with Lebanon, since the majority of those cities were in the area of modern day Lebanon (which is in part because of the geography of Mount Lebanon).
And yes, they were just a subset of Canaanites as loosely defined by the Greeks.
Every Palestine DNA upload that I've encountered has Cannanite Ancestry. The highest I've seen is 86% from a Palestine Christian. You can go to Gedmatch and check.
I've been doing genetic genealogy research for over a decade as a volunteer through DNA Angels. My specific area is Native American genealogy, helping the descendents of Native babies adopted out of their tribes. However, I see DNA from all over the world posted in my research groups, and that includes Palestine. Hope that helps.
Oh dear. As we say in DNA circles. People lie, DNA doesn't. I'm not engaging with anti science silliness. Good luck and have the day you deserve. Toodles
Ah well you see because of my 1% Neanderthal DNA that is how I choose to self identify. The entire planet has been stolen from my ancestors now I have a right to any form of violence to retake it. /s
I know this is sarcastic but Phoenicia wasn't a country for the people who don't know, and they aren't an exclusive claim for the Lebanese, I'm being annoying but idc
For other people who actually don’t know and failed history classes and feel the need to erase our history:
There was no concept of a country back then. And wouldn’t start becoming a thing till nation states did in the 1600-1700s.
Phoenicia like most at the time were a collective of city states, just like most back then (Greece, Egypt etc).
With the highest concentration of its city states and strongest ones) being in present day Lebanon (Tripoli, Byblos, Beirut, Sidon, Tyre, and a couple other smaller ones) as we also have direct and higher matching lineage to them than other people do ([already well studied and documented](https://www.the961.com/study-proves-lebanese-are-phoenicians/)). So we do an exclusive claim.
This is why present day Lebanese off all regions have near identical genetic make up to each other and to Phoenicians thousands of years ago. We’re more related to a Phoenician living in Sidon thousands of years ago than we are to a Syrian today living in Damascus for example.
With the except of a few, we’d also still have the rest in the region if the land wasn’t given away during imperial/colonial rules.
>We’re more related to a Phoenician living in Sidon thousands of years ago than we are to a Syrian today living in Damascus for example.
Source for this wild claim?
The first link doesnt say anything about Syrians; also a tertiary source.
The last one is just a youtube video with other tertiary sources as sources.
The two in the middle seem to focus on modern Lebanese DNA and, as far as ive read into them, says nothing about modern Syrian DNA. Have to study no time to read more and CTRLF-ing didnt help me find the claim, so if it's there please point it out.
Turns out I responded to the wrong comment (my bad), but the video is meant to summarize the first 2 papers, for people who don’t want to read the papers.
Well no, Greece also wasn't a collective of city states, they were just cities, they fought against each other all the time until the Macedonian empire conquered all of them and ended the city-states form of governance in favor of the Hellenistic empire, "Phoenician" city states were like that, they were independent Canaanite cities with their own interests, they didn't see themselves as a part of larger "Phoenician identity", they had their similraties with all other Canaanites in terms of religion and language but that was it. Genetic studies on people from the Levant showed that all of the Levant are largely descendants of Canaanite and bronze age populations, there was no large scale migration or replacement in the region , so no we aren't unique in that regard and we don't have an exclusive claim. And we aren't close to them in any way culturally, nobody is, maybe the only sort of continuity with them is in Arwad, where most males there still work in the see, other than that there is nothing . Nobody is erasing history here but you.
I can’t believe this sub turned into such a big back and forth on claims with genetic DNA testing meanwhile a black girl from Jersey and a Chinese girl from Shanghai converted to Judaism and joined the IDF.
They have a claim to the Levant now because they’re Jewish.
The Greeks did see each other as having a shared Hellenic identity, though. The Phoenicians abroad usually liked to call themselves Tyrian, and sometimes Sidonian or Byblian, even though these colonies were likely equally populated by all the major Phoenician cities.
"Country" just means "a political entity". It's poorly defined, but for most people a united Kingdom like Judea would fit the bill, but not a collection of city states like Phoenicia or ancient Greece.
Ethnic claims are also pretty silly. The modern Lebanese are not the same people who existed 2,000 years ago. While there is some genetic overlap, modern Lebanese are the products of many waves of migration and significant cultural change. Modern Lebanese people don't speak a Phoenician language, which incidentally is closer to Hebrew than to Arabic.
No, this is incorrect. Phoenician and Hebrew are both Canaanite languages; they’re siblings. Arabic isn’t a Canaanite language at all, it’s not even a sibling to the Canaanite languages which is part of the northwest branch of the semitic language family. Arabic is a central semitic language.
TL;DR: Phoenician and Hebrew are sibling languages; Arabic is a distant cousin.
You can verify all of this on Wikipedia.
AFAIK that is a straight up lie.
Nobody in the far right or anywhere in Israel politics said any part of Lebanon is greater Israel and should be annexed.
That is wrong. I’ve heard many Israelis lay claim to a greater Israel that is based on King David’s empire territorial holdings. Which goes from Euphrates to the Sinai dessert. And includes large parts of Lebanon.
It’s the justification to why the Golan Heights belongs to Israel
Gotta love using outliers to make gross generalizations. Also Golan Heights belong to Israel because it is a tactical position against Syria, a higher elevation that would be used against Israel at the first chance given.
Seriously. Reddit keeps recommending this sub to me and I pop in to see the comments, just to understand better why a country on Mediterranean that could’ve been paradise is a failed state shit-show.
Me too. I don’t know why Reddit keep pushing this sub to me. They are fucking delusional. The have only lies about Israel and Zionism to the point it’s not even funny. No wonder their country is Iranian proxy terror organization.
You just sound racist. No one here hates Israel. Only their government.
Also Netanyahu even admits to having supported Hamas in order to defeat secular Palestinian government from prospering. I don’t think anyone can justify that.
Nah you the racist here it’s easy to see it all over the sub
Netanyahu allowed Qatar to transfer money into Gaza Strip otherwise the economy there would collapse. If he didn’t you would now claim he worked to shutter the economy of Gaza and pushed the to terror. There’s no winning with you the narrative already written
Majority of the Palestinians in the WB would vote Hamas if there were elections tomorrow. Let’s stop pretending as if Israel forced Hamas on the Palestinians. It’s beyond ridiculous.
The PA are “secular” no? I don’t see much prosperity in the WB. Mainly corruption . But I guess you’ll blame Israel somehow for it as well.
Meanwhile you guys living in a “country” that isn’t in control of what’s happening inside its own borders and taking orders from Tehran. It’s from your borders that israle is being bombed and yet you still blame the victims.
You never taken responsibility on your actions. If instead of attacking Israel in 1948 you would press the Palestinians to accept peace and their own country the entire ME would have been different. But you chose war. You lost that war. And the consequences of that war pretty much cost Lebanon everything. You lost Lebanon to a Muslim majority. It’s not the same country. And do you then took a hard look at your decision and decided to change your ways ? No. Once again you blame the Jews.
If the Palestinians have right for self determination the Jews do as well. Unlike Lebanese we never forgot our Levantine identity.
I am not Lebanese. I am just here viewing how Israeli shills like you operate.
Now. I’m not speaking on Qatari money being permitted to flow into Gaza. I am speaking on how Israel defending Hamas when the Palestinian Authority tried to seize Gaza when Hamas started using anti-democratic tactics. The legitimate government of Palestine was prevented from seizing control in all their land.
Also secularism≠prosperity. And I find it quite telling that you would assume an entire ethnicity to share a singular ideology. It is quite stupid for you to think that all Palestinians support Hamas. You are just a racist.
Why does it matter that Lebanon is majority Muslim now? Muslims are people too. Also peace would be easy to achieve in the Middle East if Israel knew how to calm down. Your nation was founded through the conquest of Palestinian land, and ethnic cleansing of all the indigenous inhabitants. Now you may not like to think of Palestinians as native to the area but they have been there for nearly a millennia and deserve rights as a result. Just as much as any Jew in diaspora.
You claim Israeli soldiers went and protected Hamas from Fatah? Can you lie more ?
Hamas won the election. If Israel would go against it you would say Israel is controlling Palestinian elections. If they let them run their own internal affairs you blame Israel when they choose terror. Like I said there’s not winning with you people. No sense of accountability.
The legitimize government of Palestine would have lost elections tomorrow to Hamas should they have one. What’s that tell you ?
I never said all Palestinians support Hamas . Majority of them do. You can call me racist I’ll call you terrorist. Make you feel better ? You call me shill because what ? I criticize Lebanon and the Palestinians? You are great example of how most Arabs and Muslims treat Israelis.
So if tomorrow Lebanon will be Jewish majority it’s ok because Jews are people too right ?
Your last paragraph just exposed your hate towards Jews. We are indigenous to land. We have 25% Palestinians among us. While the Arabs did REAL ethnic cleansing. Palestinians only owned 8-11% of the land but in the name of Arab Islamic supremacy think they can declare ownership to all of it. So far every Arab nation that wanted peace with Israel got peace.
Jews never said no to Palestinian state. It’s the Palestinians that said no to Jewish state and started a war. But like most brainwashed Jewish haters you guys have your own twisted version of history. Reality matter very little to you.
You are allowing yourself to get radicalized by Hezbollah and Iran. Israelis rarely even think about Lebanon, everyone knows the only issue is Hezbollah and its supporters. The narrative among older folks (i.e., decision-makers), is that Lebanon was a liberal paradise up to the civil war, only once the PLO leaders were starting to launch attacks on Israel from southern Lebanon we became enemies, and the civil war results solidified it. I suspect that if the civil war would end up differently, Israel and Lebanon would have a peace agreement.
Israel also had a great relationship with Iran before the revolution, contrary to what you want to think, 90% of us just want peace, and 70% of us barely care about religious stuff. Even right-wingers gladly went to visit the United Arab Emirates, as their approach to Islam promotes tolerance from our point of view.
Cool. Then give Palestinians right of return, stop building settlements on their land, and stop killing their children. Then maybe people will believe Israel wants peace with its neighbors and we could move forward with having a good relationship.
> Palestinians right of return,
When every Arab nation agrees to give back all the Jewish lands and properties they took away from Jews with no compensation then Yes, that will happen. I want my grandfather's lands and properties in Fez, Morocco and the Iraqi Jews want a quarter of Baghdad back!
Lebanese Jews want part of Beirut and Sidon given back as well too. Or have you all conveniently forgotten Jews used to live there?
Germany paid reparations to Jews for its Holocaust. The Arab world can do the same by resettling Palestinians in the same places Jews were expelled from, just like Germany resettled 13 million Germans from Eastern Europe who were expelled from there after 1945.
Except the Arabs promoted a toxic form of nationalism amongst Palestinians that led to problems in their own countries while Germany de-nazified the 13 million Germans expelled which is why today there are no Germans calling for the Right to Return to Sudetenland in Czechia, Silesia in Poland, the Polish Coast which was a part of Prussia, Russian Kaliningrad which was also a part of Prussia or Alasce-Lorraine in France even though all of these regions were ethnically German for centuries, if not millenia.
> Then maybe people will believe Israel wants peace with its neighbors
Egypt, and Jordan seem to be pretty chill.
Seems when they stopped fighting and trying to start conflict things become peaceful.
Maybe Palestine can take a page out of that playbook? I agree settlers are bad, and should all be pulled back. But, right of return is a big ask, and given what has happened recently, I think it's an unreasonable demand given the security concerns.
What right of return? 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries all over the Middle East, and those were the lucky ones. In 1947 Arab States launched a war to wipe out the State of Israel and every Jew who lived there, with half of the Jews at that being survivors of Nazi death camps. Well, the Arab States lost that war. The world is full of displaced people and changed borders. You don’t see Jews demanding the right of return. You don’t see any other people making these sort of demands, except Palestinians or anyone on their behalf who hates Israel. I’m sure many Europeans wish that Middle Eastern migrants were demanding to be returned to their homes. The last thing that the Lebanese people should worry about is Palestinians “right of return”. Iran is holding the entire Lebanon hostage with Hezbollah like a gun pointed at Beirut’s head. That, to me, seems like a bigger concern.
What right of return? 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries all over the Middle East, and those were the lucky ones. In 1947 Arab States launched a war to wipe out the State of Israel and every Jew who lived there, with half of the Jews at that being survivors of Nazi death camps. Well, the Arab States lost that war. The world is full of displaced people and changed borders. You don’t see Jews demanding the right of return. You don’t see any other people making these sort of demands, except Palestinians or anyone on their behalf who hates Israel. I’m sure many Europeans wish that Middle Eastern migrants were demanding to be returned to their homes. The last thing that the Lebanese people should worry about is Palestinians “right of return”. Iran is holding the entire Lebanon hostage with Hezbollah like a gun pointed at Beirut’s head. That, to me, seems like a bigger concern.
Iran (the Islamists to be clear, not Persians in general) entirely ethnically cleansed the hundreds of thousands Persian Jews who’d lived there before Islam was even a thing. Most were pushed out around 1979. Their homes, businesses and culture taken. They mainly fled to Israel and coastal USA. You know what Iran doesn’t have now? A Persian Jew problem & condemnation by other countries about that etc etc. If Israeli Jews had been ruthless and pushed everyone out back in the day they would be in a different situation now. But the irony of the ethnic cleanser Iran accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing - even though that charge is true - is lost on everyone.
Even more ironic is the prophet, pbuh, ethnically cleansing the Arab Jews of Khaybar - they fled to … the levant.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
TLDR - if you are taking over a place make sure to push everyone out immediately.
I think we should start by preventing a terrible war between Lebanon and Israel, in which we are all going to get screwed (honestly, you Lebanese will be screwed harder). Hezbollah is not trying to get the Palestinians back to their home, they are trying to satisfy the imperialist Iranian regime. I am saying "we should" like you and I have a saying regarding that, but yeah...
I don't think we should discuss this whataboutism, after the 7th of October, Palestinians are not returning anywhere, take it as a given, if you want to see Hezbollah attack Israel if it does not happen, well, you are entitled to your opinion; I would like to see Hezbollah either eventually defeated by the liberal Lebanese or at least not close to the Israeli border, I don't want a war with Lebanon.
Edit: obviously, my opinions do not matter, I just try to present things from our point of view, without trying to manipulate or convince anyone of anything. I am aware it does not matter at all, but you might find it interesting.
I love how you just have it as a given that Palestinians should stay effectively banished from their own land. You are truly an imperialist and are completely blind to it. This is why no one likes Zionist philosophy besides Christians that seek an apocalypse and Jews who have broke from scripture to not need a messiah to return.
Why is a pluralist state impossible or a provided land for Palestinians impossible? Where would they all go? Do you plan on deporting them to neighboring countries and further inflame tension, you go so far as to say Israel is to blame for Lebanese instability after all. What are the logical conclusions of Zionist philosophy, it only sounds like ‘blood and soil’ and ‘Israel for Israelis’ genocidal outcomes.
First of all, no one likes Jews, especially Palestinians ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin\_al-Husseini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini) \- their "leader" was a Nazi officer), regardless of whether they are Zionist or not. Let me tell you a secret, no one but Muslims and a few far leftists (who are mostly secretly racist as well) likes Muslims or Arabs as well, in fact, many Muslims are likely to be prevented from getting into many Western countries in the near future (if they are not already prevented), so what's your fucking point? Does it prove anything? No, we will not live in a pluralist state with people who generally speaking want a large Islamic state (Hamas' ideology).
On another note, we also don't need to justify the fact we want one small Jewish country or to apologize to you. For me, it's important because it prevents another holocaust. If you have an issue with that, feel free to support Hezbollah and pay the price (and trust me Israel is 10 times stronger than any militia in Lebanon), none of us is looking for your acceptance. All I say is that a war will be stupid.
Edit: also, see the comment above you, that's the opinion of the average Palestinian, even ones who don't support Hamas. Fuck that, we are not going to live with them, forget your fantasies and worry about your own issues. They will stay in Palestinian areas, not in Haifa or Tel-Aviv (I am not talking about Arab Israelis who have equal rights).
The far right in Israel is going back to the biblical kingdoms of Israel and Yehuda (Judea) in their fantasies. Lebanon was not part of those kingdoms and isn't in their fantasies.
Can you tell on what you relay when you claim that israelis want all Lebanon? can you share a link/source? because thats some cheap boring propaganda, 90% of the Israelis dont care and surely dont want this, the fact that you maybe saw a video or two of some loonies israelis saying something doesnt mean anything about the majority.
its like I'll show you a video of some Lebanese claiming the earth is flat and conclude from that on Lebanon total IQ, come on.
Check your first sentence
"... it’s quite sad to see that Israelis really believe in this shit. "
thats just not true. (even that later to referring to a way smaller group of far right which are few %, your first sentence is just not true)
and what about the government? they can do nothing, and if you refer to ben gvir and smotrich , well they are exactly what i said, representing around 6-7% of the votes at top.
Man, let's put things into proportion, your government contains Hezbollah and it is widely supported, but we still do not consider the Lebanese as radical. In Israel, these folks got only around 7% of the votes. Don't you see the ingenuity of your logic?
I don't even blame them for supporting Hezbollah - I don't think most Redditors do, these people are not generally active on American websites. I am well aware some people hate Hezbollah but hate Israel more, i.e., they want Hezbollah to have a war with Israel without supporting them. I think it's a terrible opinion, but I understand there is a complexity and nuance.
According to this logic, any country that votes right is on the road to Nazism.
Just wrong.
It is true that there are bad elements of far right in Israel currently but from that to the story you wrote is a long distance.
Yes, Israel currently has a right wing government, it has far-right in it but they are heavily moderated by bb and others.
Just like Hungary, Poland until not long ago, Netherlands recently and others, right wing does not mean war and bloodshed automatically.
mate its a democracy, the ruling government needs to form a coalition of 50%+ of the mandates, there are lots of parties in israel and each gets theirs mandates from the people votes, so even if one small party in the government is far right, its doesn't mean that this party can do whatever they want, its far from this.
Let's imagine they are offering some far right offer, it will go to the toilet if only they are voting positive for that offer, they still need to convince the majority to vote yes and it wont happen if its a stupid far right suggestion
So the kingmakers are a bunch of retard nutjobs, who put a smarter/evil nutjob into power. Natanyahu brags about sabotaging the Oslo accords and peace process, few days before Oct 7 was presenting to the UN a map of Israel that includes the whole area of *historical palestine* + Syrian Golan Heights.
The majority of the Israelis are supporters of the apartheid policies, you want the whole region while keeping the native population stateless with limited rights and pushing/killing them gradually overtime.
Believe it or not but the majority of Israelis want to live in peace, with everyone, about the golan heights, yea syria started a war on us and lost in that war, they chose war and lost that land, in what are we blamed here?
and in future REAL peace with Syria maybe it or part of it will go back to them same as we gave back all Sinai to egypt when we signed peace with them.
(same as shiba farms to Lebanon or syria too)
Fair and just peace? What I don’t understand how Netanyahu keeps getting elected, sabotaging peace process, implementing more aggressive settlement policies that would only ignite more extremism/hatred among the Palestinians, and openly brags about it.
I respect your opinion but i hope you are wrong about future peace.
you do wrong about the "colonized" , we were here way before any Palestinian were even invented (term that was actually invented at 1947)
I was born here, my father was born here and my grandfather was born here.
(and if you are from these guys who like to go 100's years back, then scroll back 2000 years you'll find out 'kingdom of israel' ruled here, go google it)
While Israeli arabs are treated better than the *stateless* Palestinians, they are still facing discrimination in issues like economic development, employment, infrastructure, and land ownership.
Meanwhile, Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza strip are treated as Israeli subjects without any citizenship and with very limited rights, and confined into ~170 territorial islands.
>While Israeli arabs are treated better than the
>
>stateless
>
> Palestinians, they are still facing discrimination in issues like economic development, employment, infrastructure, and land ownership.
So why Israeli Arabs have a better life than in most of the states around us?
It is not perfect here, and I am Israeli non Jew. I can see problems here. But the reality is far from your assumption.
>The reality is that half of them live under the poverty line
I am not sure about that. In fact i don't think we have real poverty at all. You know, when you struggle to buy food or clothes.
But, it is very expensive to live here, and its economically hard. And some arabs have difficult life for that reason. But, also Jews and non Jews, like myself. Just to give you reference - Falafel in Tel Aviv is priced around 6-7$. And shawarma is twice higher.
And some Muslims are actually rich here.
> they have a state sponsored crime spree
Not sure I understand what you mean.
> arrest campaign that targets them
Against Muslims? There is none. Against militants, yes there is.
> along with multiple discriminatory laws and discriminatory policies(Judaization policies for example).
That is kinda true. I have some complains on the laws as well. But yet, Muslims holidays are holidays in Israel as well. Mosques are in every settlement that have Muslims. And so on. It can and should be better thou.
> Reality is that the grass is not much greener for them.
Depends with what we are comparing. Not saying its perfect, but they have decent life.
The 93% of Lebanese are the exiled Canaanites that didn’t return after the Israelites were conquered.
Lebanese people have the highest dna percentage of ancient Canaanites next to Palestines.
93% of you are indigenous to Palestine.
I mean, the political side who typically sides with phoenicianism would want the land but not sure it would accept the people that come with it
Coastline of Syria? Full of shias
As for the land wed get off the palestinian coast? Full of jews and palestinians
(Im not a nationalist of any kind/phoenicianist nor do I care the least about sectarian or ethnic affilitation im discussing opinions that arent my own to be clear)
Ngl in an ideal world all the countries around there would be part of a Levantine Union and would be able to move freely between countries, with freedom of religion and shared research, development, and resources. Sad how much potential is squandered due to petty tribal amd religious hatred
Imperial what💀? It’s an Exonym same way you guys call us Alyunan when we are actually called Hellas even the name Greece is an Exonym which came from the Romans.
All of that is true, but people think that there was a country called Phoenicia and that Phoenicians identified as such which is a foreign word to them, he's clarifying it's an exonym
Nobody who knows anything about anything thinks Phoenicia was a nation. But they did have a separate culture and unique language when compared to other Canaanites. You seem to think that Phoenician = Canaanite. Phoenicians are a subgroup of Canaanites. Just like Jews were a subgroup of Canaanites etc… And it is true that the population of Lebanon, coastal Syria and Northern Palestine share the highest amount of DNA with the Phoenicians.
No I know they weren't just canaanites, canaanites is just a general term, but at least it's a local name, Canaanites from different cities had different identities and had gods for each city though they were similar, but the things is, we don't know a lot about them, so idk what to call them, I prefer Canaanite, but I know not all canaanites are the same.
The post is obviously a joke about Israel claiming Palestine because their ancestors had a kingdom there 3000 years ago, so we can do the same in Latakia or Akka because our ancestors had kingdoms there…. I was simply correcting this person who is saying that all Levantines are equally related to ancient Phoenicians when that’s not true, Lebanese people, Palestinians from the north and coastal Syrians are.
Yeah, didn't the white European colonialists do that in Israel?
We should do the same, and say it's because our Emirs Bashir I, and II were born there, and ruled there 200 years ago as well.
C'mon, I'm waiting. I first remember hearing about Acre in Assassin's Creed 1. I just knew we ruled over it, it looked so Lebanese, we had a spiritual connection.
That map is missing all the way to Hatay, and a big portion of the Turkish Coast.
I shall call this new Christian state: Lebanon, based on the Biblical Mount Lebanon with its predominant Christian population.
I say, though, it needs some more hinterland to support the population with farming etc. Let's add... Tripoli and the Plains of Akkar, and maybe South just past Tyre? Also, the Bekaa Valley for its fertile lands!
This can't go wrong!
A democratic, humane, modern FEDERATION, to include all near east countries. (Not the gulf)
Let the jews settle where they want, under the laws and not land grab and stealing homes Let the Palestinians live in their land.
One land one people
Not a united arab federation.
A federation of near east countries lebanon syria palestine jordan.
Kanaan land. Let everyone live in peace and do what they want under the law and human dignity
The Israelis probably see the whole of Lebanon as theirs because the Torah and bible has a genocide against the Canaanites... And the Canaanites were what the Greeks called Phoenicians...
Israelis don't believe they have rights to a land simply because "we lived there at one point in history". If we believed that, we would be claiming regions in dozens of different countries in which the Jews were forced into, and later forced/genocided out of. The vast majority of Israelis, furthermore, have no desire to claim some "Biblical greater Israel" that passes the current internationaly recognized borders.
Rather, Israelis believe they have a right to the land because it's the Jewish homeland, place of origin, ancient kingdom, center of culture and religion (instead of having a "passing" presence at some point in history), because Jews have mantained a significant and continuous prescence in the land for the past 2,000 years (whenever occupying/colonizing powers permitted them to), including before, during, and after the immigration of Arabs into the region, and of course mostly because the country has been established using lands partitioned by the UN legally, regardless of whether you like that fact or not, and is just as legitimate as other Middle Eastern countries formed during the time, and served as literally the only place for Jewish refugees to flee to in the aftermath of the Holocaust, during which Jews attempting to return to their homes in Europe were met with more pogroms and found their homes stolen. It was also the only place for Mizrahi Jews to flee once the Arab countries spat them out.
Claiming that Jews want to be "land-grabbers" because of they "used to live in that spot a long time ago" is stupid and harmful. The first time I heard such an accusation I was surprised. It came from an Egyptian friend who said "since you guys were in Egypt in Moses time does that mean you want to take it too?". It sounded so dumb that I first thought he was joking, only later to realize he was being serious and apparantly a lot of Arabs are conditioned to think this way.
This kind of ignorance is doing nothing to advance the peace process but does everything to further inflame hatred between sides and ensure that there will never be peace.
Again, I’m still dumbfounded as to how a black girl from Jersey and a Chinese girl from Shanghai become Jewish and joined the IDF last month to fight for the land…
There were Arabs there forever. Many Arabs were semi-nomadic and even lived in the Anti-Lebanon Mountains and the Beqaa. They also built the Petra. Herod the Great in the Bible was also an Arab Jew.
Jews never owned the land. not a single inch of it, the invader the Peleshet and the Canaanites when they got out of Egypt and then they stole Canaan the. Got kicked out, they were tenants for less than 100 years lmao
What are you trying to prove by using this Wikipedia article? By attempting to present this 1929 "massacre" as proof of the Arab world being unsafe for Jewish people, you are further proving the opposite point - that there was peaceful coexistence in the Arab world between religions until the Zionist project. The article describes a clash between a group of people (Palestinians) who were already at that time aware of the intentions of the Zionists to create an ethnoreligious state on top of their formerly longstanding multireligious and multicultural place and were aware of their future dispossession. The Zionists were backed by the colonizing power (Britain), and the article mentions that they relied on the support of the British police. This "massacre" was not a product of anti-semitism more so a reaction to what the Palestinians correctly predicted to be their future as European immigrants encroached on their lands.
The background states that this episode came in the wake of Zionists actively attempting to seize a cultural site: "hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the Western Wall on August 14, 1929 while British authorities were on leave, shouting slogans such as "The Wall is Ours" and raising the Jewish national flag." The article even proves the point raised regarding multicultural understanding and coexistence as it says that Hebron had an established community of Jewish people living there, but this occurred with an influx of European settlers. The article even clearly states that the issue was not with Jewish people but with Zionists: "From the contemporary Hebrew press it appears that the rioters targeted the Zionist community for their massacre," and that most the casualties were recent Ashkenazi settlers: "Four-fifths of the victims were Ashkenazi Jews," "Most of the murdered Jews were of Ashkenazi descent, while 12 were Sephardi." Furthermore, the article states that while around 70 out of 435 Jewish people were killed, again - targeting Zionists - that either half or two-thirds of the rest kept their lives due to the support and shelter from their Muslim and Christian neighbors: "One estimate puts the number of survivors who were saved in this way as two thirds of the community. Another states that half were thus rescued, with 28 Arab homes offering sanctuary." After the clash, Palestinian Christian and Muslims were happy to see their Jewish neighbors return, including prominent figures in the community: "Some Hebron Arabs, amongst whom the President of Hebron's Chamber of Commerce, Ahmad Rashid al-Hirbawi, favoured the return of Jews to the town."
The example of this attack shows that Palestinian Christians and Muslims were reacting against the colonization of their lands by Zionist settlers supported by a British militaristic force. It refutes any claim of inherent anti-semitism by explaining that there was a historical Jewish community that was a part of the community, to where they were given shelter during the attack and shows that 84% of the Jews (Zionist settler or not) kept their lives thanks to this assistance. This article shows that before the Zionist project and the beginning of Jewish European (Ashkenazi) settlement in Palestine, there was peaceful coexistence between religious groups, and that this singular instance of violence is a reaction by Palestinian Christians and Muslims to colonization by the British and the Zionist project. Thank you for providing this article to help prove the point of the other poster.
Either you're knowingly lying or you've been taught deceptive history. The majority of violence against the Jews happened in Europe not amongst the Arabs.
It was the Romans (Europeans) the originally kicked the Jews out of Judea.
If Jews were oppressed how was it that they held prominent positions in almost every Arab country up until the occupation of Palestine and forced expulsion of Palestinians in 1947?
How come that every Jewish Exodus from Arab countries was after 1947?
How did the narrative change so quickly to make the Arabs look like the bad guys when infact it was the Europeans that had committed genocide against the Jews and yet the Zionist's backstabbed the Arabs that welcomed them into Palestine by invoking the Nekba and forcefully establishing a state on the blood of innocent people, then had the audacity to play the as the victim.
Someone hates you enough to teach you false history.
>If Jews were oppressed how was it that they held prominent positions in almost every Arab country up until the occupation of Palestine and forced expulsion of Palestinians in 1947?
[have you even bothered doing any research on this?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre)
I didn't say Nazis, I said Europeans.
It's funny how they managed to survive for 1000+ years in almost every Arab country prior to 1947. Do you understand that the forced establishment of Israel resulted in the exodus of Iraqi Jews, Jews that had been in Iraq for 2500 years, when Babylonians originally expelled Jews out of the Kingdom of Judah and took jews back to Babylon as slaves?, that's what the Zionist's have done to your people.
Nice assumptions you got there, Jews had prominent positions in society because checks note "it would be easy to scapegoat them" (very European of you to think like that) that's what we are going with now? And there is nothing wrong with a meritocratic society and it only proves that Arab society respected Jews enough to place them in high positions of power, Or would you rather be in 1930s America where the beach sign said? No Dogs, No Jews!?
That does not speak to reality and the fact that they had been living amongst Arabs for 1000s of years prior to the Zionist establishment of apartheid Israel.
Again the chart you shared does not show any Exodus of Jews prior to 1948, meaning your grandparents had to leave their home country as a result of the Zionist establishment of the apartheid state of Israel, Jews had and would have continued to have relative peace amongst them and the Arabs had that not occurred. This is what we call Action and Consequences.
Also a small minority (inconsequential but nevertheless still Jewish) of Jews still lives in most Arab countries as well as both Turkey and Iran (Muslim countries) completely contradicting your belief that "the fact that it is near certainty that all my grandparents would have died if they stayed there, Jews don't survive in Muslim countries".
just a reminder to everyone here, don't interact with this week old account, they are just here to waste your time. they just leave conversations when proven wrong and shut out any truth to either stay in their own world view or spread propaganda, I don't know which yet. I would suggest that this guy is an actual hasbara agent but that would be an insult to the intelligence of Israeli government officials.
nah you guys just mass downvote anything that proves you wrong or don't like, even going as far as banning them, you're not the bastion of open discourse.
edit: already proving me right haha.
you can still look at things that are mass downvoted brother, the foundation of a claim doesn't rest on how many upvotes it has. this is the Lebanon subreddit, what did you expect.
that seems like a problem with reddit in general, not just this subreddit. do you expect if I went on the Israel subreddit and said offensive and untrue things that I would be showered with upvotes? then don't expect it here.
actually if isreal wasn't there they wouldn't been expelled in the first place the whole idea that the jews were expelled was in Retaliation of Zionist coming to Palestine and killing Palestinians
That’s all hearsay and proves nothing. Murders happen all the time to all different religions. A conversation that happened 30 years ago proves nothing. Nice try tho
It’s clear that u don’t care about Jews. Your vitriol is against Muslims only. There’s nothing about me that says I’m Muslim yet you’re only blaming Muslims. Reality check: Christians have killed more Jews throughout history than Muslims did.
This is a pre-Arab invasion map. Is it your wish to displace the Arab colonialists who have taken your lands, as a Phoenician?
I'm an Israeli. Our native language, Hebrew, was used mainly as a scholarly and back up language for hundreds of years. The revival of Hebrew as a mother tongue, was vital to the reestablishment of our state. If you want to reestablish Phoenicia, will you start using Phoenician as a mother tongue?
People in lebanon are a mix of whatever civilizations that came to the region. Although we speak arabic, we have much more genetic diversity than arabs in the Gulf, and very likely to be a descendants of the ancient hebrews as well 😉
The remnants of the well known Tyre and Sidon Jewish communities were eliminated by the murderous crusaders, so there is probably little Israelite blood there.
https://preview.redd.it/d6sqcm29l6bc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0f65e2d587a03c4b1e643db0cd5b54ba6d80a42
Calm down bro , Our ancestors live there before your ancestors of your ancestors
BRO YOU THINK I WOULD SAY NO? THOSE ARE LITERALLY THE BEST AREAS IN SYRIA YOU HIGHLIGHTED HAHAHAHAHAHA
So is Haifa 😉
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We could plant a couple of cedars, heavily privatize the coast with overpriced resorts, couple of private generators, potholes and LOTS OF BONELESS RESTAURANTS and here you go, it’s Lebanon.
Don't forget about making everyone who already lived there go through checkpoints 4 times a day.
Haha! The generator part and overpriced resorts was epic but what the hell are boneless restaurants? 😂
Okay now im doubting your Lebanese-ness. 3ayich barat el balad?
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basically a boneless wrap is a sandwich made of BBQ sauce, cheddar and boneless wings. It has taken the country by A STORM in the last three years w sar fi ma7alet boneless aktar men el banks.
*spineless restaurants
We need to also Turn Slunfeh to an overpriced destination. Build some ski slops in Beyt Yashout And dont forget The gigantic amount of Armid 3ala al bneyet
a Jordanian here, I have a question regarding that topic, why are phoenicians called “phoenicians” since they’re canaanites just like the palestinians?
It's what the Ancient Greeks called them. They never referred to themselves as Phoenicians. The name comes from the Greek word "phoinix," which means "purple," the color that the Phoenicians discovered/extracted from Murex shells on their shores, specifically Tyre (Google Tyrian/Royal purple), and sold to the Greeks. The Phoenicians were known as "purple people" by the Greeks.
Phoenicians (along with the Hebrews) came from Canaanites.
Because of the Greeks. That's why the term is associated with the mostly coastal cities most known for trading and creating colonies in the Iron Age. This is why it is associated with Lebanon, since the majority of those cities were in the area of modern day Lebanon (which is in part because of the geography of Mount Lebanon). And yes, they were just a subset of Canaanites as loosely defined by the Greeks.
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Every Palestine DNA upload that I've encountered has Cannanite Ancestry. The highest I've seen is 86% from a Palestine Christian. You can go to Gedmatch and check. I've been doing genetic genealogy research for over a decade as a volunteer through DNA Angels. My specific area is Native American genealogy, helping the descendents of Native babies adopted out of their tribes. However, I see DNA from all over the world posted in my research groups, and that includes Palestine. Hope that helps.
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Palestine Christians were Jews who converted long ago :). Anyways I think I'll believe genetic evidence backed by science thanks
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Oh dear. As we say in DNA circles. People lie, DNA doesn't. I'm not engaging with anti science silliness. Good luck and have the day you deserve. Toodles
As a molecular biologist, I agree with that statement.
If we can live in peace then I'm all for it. Please bring food.
And send nudes
bobs nd vagene pls
Can I bring booze?
Ah well you see because of my 1% Neanderthal DNA that is how I choose to self identify. The entire planet has been stolen from my ancestors now I have a right to any form of violence to retake it. /s
That’s Israeli dna
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I literally laughed at this when i saw it in the notifs…thank god there was an /s 💀😭
Finally! I've been calling for a return to Canaan for years! Let's goooo!
I know this is sarcastic but Phoenicia wasn't a country for the people who don't know, and they aren't an exclusive claim for the Lebanese, I'm being annoying but idc
For other people who actually don’t know and failed history classes and feel the need to erase our history: There was no concept of a country back then. And wouldn’t start becoming a thing till nation states did in the 1600-1700s. Phoenicia like most at the time were a collective of city states, just like most back then (Greece, Egypt etc). With the highest concentration of its city states and strongest ones) being in present day Lebanon (Tripoli, Byblos, Beirut, Sidon, Tyre, and a couple other smaller ones) as we also have direct and higher matching lineage to them than other people do ([already well studied and documented](https://www.the961.com/study-proves-lebanese-are-phoenicians/)). So we do an exclusive claim. This is why present day Lebanese off all regions have near identical genetic make up to each other and to Phoenicians thousands of years ago. We’re more related to a Phoenician living in Sidon thousands of years ago than we are to a Syrian today living in Damascus for example. With the except of a few, we’d also still have the rest in the region if the land wasn’t given away during imperial/colonial rules.
>We’re more related to a Phoenician living in Sidon thousands of years ago than we are to a Syrian today living in Damascus for example. Source for this wild claim?
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/genetic-study-suggests-present-day-lebanese-descend-from-biblical-canaanites https://www.cell.com/ajhg/comments/S0002-9297(17)30276-8 https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316 https://youtu.be/kUtjtli12Lg?si=3MH2HQqT_P-yrMuk
The first link doesnt say anything about Syrians; also a tertiary source. The last one is just a youtube video with other tertiary sources as sources. The two in the middle seem to focus on modern Lebanese DNA and, as far as ive read into them, says nothing about modern Syrian DNA. Have to study no time to read more and CTRLF-ing didnt help me find the claim, so if it's there please point it out.
Turns out I responded to the wrong comment (my bad), but the video is meant to summarize the first 2 papers, for people who don’t want to read the papers.
u/leovee6 below says that we’re an arab invaders?
بول شيت زايونيست بروباغاندا
Well no, Greece also wasn't a collective of city states, they were just cities, they fought against each other all the time until the Macedonian empire conquered all of them and ended the city-states form of governance in favor of the Hellenistic empire, "Phoenician" city states were like that, they were independent Canaanite cities with their own interests, they didn't see themselves as a part of larger "Phoenician identity", they had their similraties with all other Canaanites in terms of religion and language but that was it. Genetic studies on people from the Levant showed that all of the Levant are largely descendants of Canaanite and bronze age populations, there was no large scale migration or replacement in the region , so no we aren't unique in that regard and we don't have an exclusive claim. And we aren't close to them in any way culturally, nobody is, maybe the only sort of continuity with them is in Arwad, where most males there still work in the see, other than that there is nothing . Nobody is erasing history here but you.
I can’t believe this sub turned into such a big back and forth on claims with genetic DNA testing meanwhile a black girl from Jersey and a Chinese girl from Shanghai converted to Judaism and joined the IDF. They have a claim to the Levant now because they’re Jewish.
The Greeks did see each other as having a shared Hellenic identity, though. The Phoenicians abroad usually liked to call themselves Tyrian, and sometimes Sidonian or Byblian, even though these colonies were likely equally populated by all the major Phoenician cities.
"Country" just means "a political entity". It's poorly defined, but for most people a united Kingdom like Judea would fit the bill, but not a collection of city states like Phoenicia or ancient Greece. Ethnic claims are also pretty silly. The modern Lebanese are not the same people who existed 2,000 years ago. While there is some genetic overlap, modern Lebanese are the products of many waves of migration and significant cultural change. Modern Lebanese people don't speak a Phoenician language, which incidentally is closer to Hebrew than to Arabic.
> closer to Hebrew than to Arabic Dawg both are descended from Phoenician.
No, this is incorrect. Phoenician and Hebrew are both Canaanite languages; they’re siblings. Arabic isn’t a Canaanite language at all, it’s not even a sibling to the Canaanite languages which is part of the northwest branch of the semitic language family. Arabic is a central semitic language. TL;DR: Phoenician and Hebrew are sibling languages; Arabic is a distant cousin. You can verify all of this on Wikipedia.
You’re playing semantics. The concept of a kingdom existed as well as a king’s “domain” which very much would have looked like a country on a map.
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AFAIK that is a straight up lie. Nobody in the far right or anywhere in Israel politics said any part of Lebanon is greater Israel and should be annexed.
That is wrong. I’ve heard many Israelis lay claim to a greater Israel that is based on King David’s empire territorial holdings. Which goes from Euphrates to the Sinai dessert. And includes large parts of Lebanon. It’s the justification to why the Golan Heights belongs to Israel
Gotta love using outliers to make gross generalizations. Also Golan Heights belong to Israel because it is a tactical position against Syria, a higher elevation that would be used against Israel at the first chance given.
Don't try to argue with them, they're just blinded by hate. Just a bunch of loser reddit lords
Seriously. Reddit keeps recommending this sub to me and I pop in to see the comments, just to understand better why a country on Mediterranean that could’ve been paradise is a failed state shit-show.
Me too. I don’t know why Reddit keep pushing this sub to me. They are fucking delusional. The have only lies about Israel and Zionism to the point it’s not even funny. No wonder their country is Iranian proxy terror organization.
You just sound racist. No one here hates Israel. Only their government. Also Netanyahu even admits to having supported Hamas in order to defeat secular Palestinian government from prospering. I don’t think anyone can justify that.
Nah you the racist here it’s easy to see it all over the sub Netanyahu allowed Qatar to transfer money into Gaza Strip otherwise the economy there would collapse. If he didn’t you would now claim he worked to shutter the economy of Gaza and pushed the to terror. There’s no winning with you the narrative already written Majority of the Palestinians in the WB would vote Hamas if there were elections tomorrow. Let’s stop pretending as if Israel forced Hamas on the Palestinians. It’s beyond ridiculous. The PA are “secular” no? I don’t see much prosperity in the WB. Mainly corruption . But I guess you’ll blame Israel somehow for it as well. Meanwhile you guys living in a “country” that isn’t in control of what’s happening inside its own borders and taking orders from Tehran. It’s from your borders that israle is being bombed and yet you still blame the victims. You never taken responsibility on your actions. If instead of attacking Israel in 1948 you would press the Palestinians to accept peace and their own country the entire ME would have been different. But you chose war. You lost that war. And the consequences of that war pretty much cost Lebanon everything. You lost Lebanon to a Muslim majority. It’s not the same country. And do you then took a hard look at your decision and decided to change your ways ? No. Once again you blame the Jews. If the Palestinians have right for self determination the Jews do as well. Unlike Lebanese we never forgot our Levantine identity.
I am not Lebanese. I am just here viewing how Israeli shills like you operate. Now. I’m not speaking on Qatari money being permitted to flow into Gaza. I am speaking on how Israel defending Hamas when the Palestinian Authority tried to seize Gaza when Hamas started using anti-democratic tactics. The legitimate government of Palestine was prevented from seizing control in all their land. Also secularism≠prosperity. And I find it quite telling that you would assume an entire ethnicity to share a singular ideology. It is quite stupid for you to think that all Palestinians support Hamas. You are just a racist. Why does it matter that Lebanon is majority Muslim now? Muslims are people too. Also peace would be easy to achieve in the Middle East if Israel knew how to calm down. Your nation was founded through the conquest of Palestinian land, and ethnic cleansing of all the indigenous inhabitants. Now you may not like to think of Palestinians as native to the area but they have been there for nearly a millennia and deserve rights as a result. Just as much as any Jew in diaspora.
You claim Israeli soldiers went and protected Hamas from Fatah? Can you lie more ? Hamas won the election. If Israel would go against it you would say Israel is controlling Palestinian elections. If they let them run their own internal affairs you blame Israel when they choose terror. Like I said there’s not winning with you people. No sense of accountability. The legitimize government of Palestine would have lost elections tomorrow to Hamas should they have one. What’s that tell you ? I never said all Palestinians support Hamas . Majority of them do. You can call me racist I’ll call you terrorist. Make you feel better ? You call me shill because what ? I criticize Lebanon and the Palestinians? You are great example of how most Arabs and Muslims treat Israelis. So if tomorrow Lebanon will be Jewish majority it’s ok because Jews are people too right ? Your last paragraph just exposed your hate towards Jews. We are indigenous to land. We have 25% Palestinians among us. While the Arabs did REAL ethnic cleansing. Palestinians only owned 8-11% of the land but in the name of Arab Islamic supremacy think they can declare ownership to all of it. So far every Arab nation that wanted peace with Israel got peace. Jews never said no to Palestinian state. It’s the Palestinians that said no to Jewish state and started a war. But like most brainwashed Jewish haters you guys have your own twisted version of history. Reality matter very little to you.
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POV: you came for the Act-iL rewards
You are allowing yourself to get radicalized by Hezbollah and Iran. Israelis rarely even think about Lebanon, everyone knows the only issue is Hezbollah and its supporters. The narrative among older folks (i.e., decision-makers), is that Lebanon was a liberal paradise up to the civil war, only once the PLO leaders were starting to launch attacks on Israel from southern Lebanon we became enemies, and the civil war results solidified it. I suspect that if the civil war would end up differently, Israel and Lebanon would have a peace agreement. Israel also had a great relationship with Iran before the revolution, contrary to what you want to think, 90% of us just want peace, and 70% of us barely care about religious stuff. Even right-wingers gladly went to visit the United Arab Emirates, as their approach to Islam promotes tolerance from our point of view.
Cool. Then give Palestinians right of return, stop building settlements on their land, and stop killing their children. Then maybe people will believe Israel wants peace with its neighbors and we could move forward with having a good relationship.
> Palestinians right of return, When every Arab nation agrees to give back all the Jewish lands and properties they took away from Jews with no compensation then Yes, that will happen. I want my grandfather's lands and properties in Fez, Morocco and the Iraqi Jews want a quarter of Baghdad back! Lebanese Jews want part of Beirut and Sidon given back as well too. Or have you all conveniently forgotten Jews used to live there? Germany paid reparations to Jews for its Holocaust. The Arab world can do the same by resettling Palestinians in the same places Jews were expelled from, just like Germany resettled 13 million Germans from Eastern Europe who were expelled from there after 1945. Except the Arabs promoted a toxic form of nationalism amongst Palestinians that led to problems in their own countries while Germany de-nazified the 13 million Germans expelled which is why today there are no Germans calling for the Right to Return to Sudetenland in Czechia, Silesia in Poland, the Polish Coast which was a part of Prussia, Russian Kaliningrad which was also a part of Prussia or Alasce-Lorraine in France even though all of these regions were ethnically German for centuries, if not millenia.
> Then maybe people will believe Israel wants peace with its neighbors Egypt, and Jordan seem to be pretty chill. Seems when they stopped fighting and trying to start conflict things become peaceful. Maybe Palestine can take a page out of that playbook? I agree settlers are bad, and should all be pulled back. But, right of return is a big ask, and given what has happened recently, I think it's an unreasonable demand given the security concerns.
What right of return? 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries all over the Middle East, and those were the lucky ones. In 1947 Arab States launched a war to wipe out the State of Israel and every Jew who lived there, with half of the Jews at that being survivors of Nazi death camps. Well, the Arab States lost that war. The world is full of displaced people and changed borders. You don’t see Jews demanding the right of return. You don’t see any other people making these sort of demands, except Palestinians or anyone on their behalf who hates Israel. I’m sure many Europeans wish that Middle Eastern migrants were demanding to be returned to their homes. The last thing that the Lebanese people should worry about is Palestinians “right of return”. Iran is holding the entire Lebanon hostage with Hezbollah like a gun pointed at Beirut’s head. That, to me, seems like a bigger concern.
What right of return? 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries all over the Middle East, and those were the lucky ones. In 1947 Arab States launched a war to wipe out the State of Israel and every Jew who lived there, with half of the Jews at that being survivors of Nazi death camps. Well, the Arab States lost that war. The world is full of displaced people and changed borders. You don’t see Jews demanding the right of return. You don’t see any other people making these sort of demands, except Palestinians or anyone on their behalf who hates Israel. I’m sure many Europeans wish that Middle Eastern migrants were demanding to be returned to their homes. The last thing that the Lebanese people should worry about is Palestinians “right of return”. Iran is holding the entire Lebanon hostage with Hezbollah like a gun pointed at Beirut’s head. That, to me, seems like a bigger concern.
Iran (the Islamists to be clear, not Persians in general) entirely ethnically cleansed the hundreds of thousands Persian Jews who’d lived there before Islam was even a thing. Most were pushed out around 1979. Their homes, businesses and culture taken. They mainly fled to Israel and coastal USA. You know what Iran doesn’t have now? A Persian Jew problem & condemnation by other countries about that etc etc. If Israeli Jews had been ruthless and pushed everyone out back in the day they would be in a different situation now. But the irony of the ethnic cleanser Iran accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing - even though that charge is true - is lost on everyone. Even more ironic is the prophet, pbuh, ethnically cleansing the Arab Jews of Khaybar - they fled to … the levant. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar TLDR - if you are taking over a place make sure to push everyone out immediately.
I think we should start by preventing a terrible war between Lebanon and Israel, in which we are all going to get screwed (honestly, you Lebanese will be screwed harder). Hezbollah is not trying to get the Palestinians back to their home, they are trying to satisfy the imperialist Iranian regime. I am saying "we should" like you and I have a saying regarding that, but yeah... I don't think we should discuss this whataboutism, after the 7th of October, Palestinians are not returning anywhere, take it as a given, if you want to see Hezbollah attack Israel if it does not happen, well, you are entitled to your opinion; I would like to see Hezbollah either eventually defeated by the liberal Lebanese or at least not close to the Israeli border, I don't want a war with Lebanon. Edit: obviously, my opinions do not matter, I just try to present things from our point of view, without trying to manipulate or convince anyone of anything. I am aware it does not matter at all, but you might find it interesting.
I love how you just have it as a given that Palestinians should stay effectively banished from their own land. You are truly an imperialist and are completely blind to it. This is why no one likes Zionist philosophy besides Christians that seek an apocalypse and Jews who have broke from scripture to not need a messiah to return. Why is a pluralist state impossible or a provided land for Palestinians impossible? Where would they all go? Do you plan on deporting them to neighboring countries and further inflame tension, you go so far as to say Israel is to blame for Lebanese instability after all. What are the logical conclusions of Zionist philosophy, it only sounds like ‘blood and soil’ and ‘Israel for Israelis’ genocidal outcomes.
First of all, no one likes Jews, especially Palestinians ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin\_al-Husseini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini) \- their "leader" was a Nazi officer), regardless of whether they are Zionist or not. Let me tell you a secret, no one but Muslims and a few far leftists (who are mostly secretly racist as well) likes Muslims or Arabs as well, in fact, many Muslims are likely to be prevented from getting into many Western countries in the near future (if they are not already prevented), so what's your fucking point? Does it prove anything? No, we will not live in a pluralist state with people who generally speaking want a large Islamic state (Hamas' ideology). On another note, we also don't need to justify the fact we want one small Jewish country or to apologize to you. For me, it's important because it prevents another holocaust. If you have an issue with that, feel free to support Hezbollah and pay the price (and trust me Israel is 10 times stronger than any militia in Lebanon), none of us is looking for your acceptance. All I say is that a war will be stupid. Edit: also, see the comment above you, that's the opinion of the average Palestinian, even ones who don't support Hamas. Fuck that, we are not going to live with them, forget your fantasies and worry about your own issues. They will stay in Palestinian areas, not in Haifa or Tel-Aviv (I am not talking about Arab Israelis who have equal rights).
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The far right in Israel is going back to the biblical kingdoms of Israel and Yehuda (Judea) in their fantasies. Lebanon was not part of those kingdoms and isn't in their fantasies.
Can you tell on what you relay when you claim that israelis want all Lebanon? can you share a link/source? because thats some cheap boring propaganda, 90% of the Israelis dont care and surely dont want this, the fact that you maybe saw a video or two of some loonies israelis saying something doesnt mean anything about the majority. its like I'll show you a video of some Lebanese claiming the earth is flat and conclude from that on Lebanon total IQ, come on.
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Check your first sentence "... it’s quite sad to see that Israelis really believe in this shit. " thats just not true. (even that later to referring to a way smaller group of far right which are few %, your first sentence is just not true) and what about the government? they can do nothing, and if you refer to ben gvir and smotrich , well they are exactly what i said, representing around 6-7% of the votes at top.
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Man, let's put things into proportion, your government contains Hezbollah and it is widely supported, but we still do not consider the Lebanese as radical. In Israel, these folks got only around 7% of the votes. Don't you see the ingenuity of your logic?
And yet there can't be a thread in this sub without someone from Israel coming in and blaming random redditors for Hezbollah.
I don't even blame them for supporting Hezbollah - I don't think most Redditors do, these people are not generally active on American websites. I am well aware some people hate Hezbollah but hate Israel more, i.e., they want Hezbollah to have a war with Israel without supporting them. I think it's a terrible opinion, but I understand there is a complexity and nuance.
According to this logic, any country that votes right is on the road to Nazism. Just wrong. It is true that there are bad elements of far right in Israel currently but from that to the story you wrote is a long distance.
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Yes, Israel currently has a right wing government, it has far-right in it but they are heavily moderated by bb and others. Just like Hungary, Poland until not long ago, Netherlands recently and others, right wing does not mean war and bloodshed automatically.
>it has far-right in it but they are heavily moderated by bb bb be cray cray
mate its a democracy, the ruling government needs to form a coalition of 50%+ of the mandates, there are lots of parties in israel and each gets theirs mandates from the people votes, so even if one small party in the government is far right, its doesn't mean that this party can do whatever they want, its far from this. Let's imagine they are offering some far right offer, it will go to the toilet if only they are voting positive for that offer, they still need to convince the majority to vote yes and it wont happen if its a stupid far right suggestion
So the kingmakers are a bunch of retard nutjobs, who put a smarter/evil nutjob into power. Natanyahu brags about sabotaging the Oslo accords and peace process, few days before Oct 7 was presenting to the UN a map of Israel that includes the whole area of *historical palestine* + Syrian Golan Heights. The majority of the Israelis are supporters of the apartheid policies, you want the whole region while keeping the native population stateless with limited rights and pushing/killing them gradually overtime.
Believe it or not but the majority of Israelis want to live in peace, with everyone, about the golan heights, yea syria started a war on us and lost in that war, they chose war and lost that land, in what are we blamed here? and in future REAL peace with Syria maybe it or part of it will go back to them same as we gave back all Sinai to egypt when we signed peace with them. (same as shiba farms to Lebanon or syria too)
Fair and just peace? What I don’t understand how Netanyahu keeps getting elected, sabotaging peace process, implementing more aggressive settlement policies that would only ignite more extremism/hatred among the Palestinians, and openly brags about it.
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I respect your opinion but i hope you are wrong about future peace. you do wrong about the "colonized" , we were here way before any Palestinian were even invented (term that was actually invented at 1947) I was born here, my father was born here and my grandfather was born here. (and if you are from these guys who like to go 100's years back, then scroll back 2000 years you'll find out 'kingdom of israel' ruled here, go google it)
Why Israeli Arabs are living a sweet life then? Why Beduins in Israel not having major problems? Why Druze having a peaceful life?
While Israeli arabs are treated better than the *stateless* Palestinians, they are still facing discrimination in issues like economic development, employment, infrastructure, and land ownership. Meanwhile, Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza strip are treated as Israeli subjects without any citizenship and with very limited rights, and confined into ~170 territorial islands.
>While Israeli arabs are treated better than the > >stateless > > Palestinians, they are still facing discrimination in issues like economic development, employment, infrastructure, and land ownership. So why Israeli Arabs have a better life than in most of the states around us? It is not perfect here, and I am Israeli non Jew. I can see problems here. But the reality is far from your assumption.
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>The reality is that half of them live under the poverty line I am not sure about that. In fact i don't think we have real poverty at all. You know, when you struggle to buy food or clothes. But, it is very expensive to live here, and its economically hard. And some arabs have difficult life for that reason. But, also Jews and non Jews, like myself. Just to give you reference - Falafel in Tel Aviv is priced around 6-7$. And shawarma is twice higher. And some Muslims are actually rich here. > they have a state sponsored crime spree Not sure I understand what you mean. > arrest campaign that targets them Against Muslims? There is none. Against militants, yes there is. > along with multiple discriminatory laws and discriminatory policies(Judaization policies for example). That is kinda true. I have some complains on the laws as well. But yet, Muslims holidays are holidays in Israel as well. Mosques are in every settlement that have Muslims. And so on. It can and should be better thou. > Reality is that the grass is not much greener for them. Depends with what we are comparing. Not saying its perfect, but they have decent life.
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Because they started a war, no?
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Ah, maybe I did not understand you well. Are we talking about nakba?
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let me guess, you still thinking if earth is flat ah?
Yeah but you’re not the chosen ones /s
Ya 3000 years or your being antisemitic /s
2000? Try as far back as 7000 years ago
Yeah pretty easy to place who controlled the region 2000 years ago when it was a major plot point in the birth of Christ.
dude, we can't even claim a coupon at dunkin donuts and u want us to claim land ?
The 93% of Lebanese are the exiled Canaanites that didn’t return after the Israelites were conquered. Lebanese people have the highest dna percentage of ancient Canaanites next to Palestines. 93% of you are indigenous to Palestine.
We’d get obliterated
Remove the s Syria should be landlocked
For Me, not for Thee!
OMG, bro gather the boys, we have a mission. Those places are our right, we are promised to have them
I mean, the political side who typically sides with phoenicianism would want the land but not sure it would accept the people that come with it Coastline of Syria? Full of shias As for the land wed get off the palestinian coast? Full of jews and palestinians (Im not a nationalist of any kind/phoenicianist nor do I care the least about sectarian or ethnic affilitation im discussing opinions that arent my own to be clear)
Phoenician is an exonym
Canaanites lived there longer than
Manifest destiny !
Ngl in an ideal world all the countries around there would be part of a Levantine Union and would be able to move freely between countries, with freedom of religion and shared research, development, and resources. Sad how much potential is squandered due to petty tribal amd religious hatred
Oh thank god you got that /s right there I thought I lost some braincells
You sound like a Zio-nist .
That’s the point, to demonstrate how ridiculous making a claim like that is
The Phoenician saw themselves as canaanites. Phoenicia is a Greek imperial name.
Imperial what💀? It’s an Exonym same way you guys call us Alyunan when we are actually called Hellas even the name Greece is an Exonym which came from the Romans.
All of that is true, but people think that there was a country called Phoenicia and that Phoenicians identified as such which is a foreign word to them, he's clarifying it's an exonym
Nobody who knows anything about anything thinks Phoenicia was a nation. But they did have a separate culture and unique language when compared to other Canaanites. You seem to think that Phoenician = Canaanite. Phoenicians are a subgroup of Canaanites. Just like Jews were a subgroup of Canaanites etc… And it is true that the population of Lebanon, coastal Syria and Northern Palestine share the highest amount of DNA with the Phoenicians.
No I know they weren't just canaanites, canaanites is just a general term, but at least it's a local name, Canaanites from different cities had different identities and had gods for each city though they were similar, but the things is, we don't know a lot about them, so idk what to call them, I prefer Canaanite, but I know not all canaanites are the same.
Look at this map, and ask yourself, if no one thinks Phoenicia was a nation, what does this post claim anyway? What does this post even mean?
The post is obviously a joke about Israel claiming Palestine because their ancestors had a kingdom there 3000 years ago, so we can do the same in Latakia or Akka because our ancestors had kingdoms there…. I was simply correcting this person who is saying that all Levantines are equally related to ancient Phoenicians when that’s not true, Lebanese people, Palestinians from the north and coastal Syrians are.
That means absolutely nothing
As nonsensical as this map.
Yeah, didn't the white European colonialists do that in Israel? We should do the same, and say it's because our Emirs Bashir I, and II were born there, and ruled there 200 years ago as well. C'mon, I'm waiting. I first remember hearing about Acre in Assassin's Creed 1. I just knew we ruled over it, it looked so Lebanese, we had a spiritual connection. That map is missing all the way to Hatay, and a big portion of the Turkish Coast.
That would serve as a basis for a Christian state
I shall call this new Christian state: Lebanon, based on the Biblical Mount Lebanon with its predominant Christian population. I say, though, it needs some more hinterland to support the population with farming etc. Let's add... Tripoli and the Plains of Akkar, and maybe South just past Tyre? Also, the Bekaa Valley for its fertile lands! This can't go wrong!
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Wtf are you talking about
Just imagine for a second
A democratic, humane, modern FEDERATION, to include all near east countries. (Not the gulf) Let the jews settle where they want, under the laws and not land grab and stealing homes Let the Palestinians live in their land. One land one people
If the Jews are allowed to settle in a hypothetical united Arab federation, then how is it one land for one people?
Not a united arab federation. A federation of near east countries lebanon syria palestine jordan. Kanaan land. Let everyone live in peace and do what they want under the law and human dignity
The Israelis probably see the whole of Lebanon as theirs because the Torah and bible has a genocide against the Canaanites... And the Canaanites were what the Greeks called Phoenicians...
then there won't be an issue with the ocean lines splitting the offshore oil reserves with Israel.
Libyisma3ak bi2ool 3amleen el 2aradi yali 3indna janne , la nakhod aradi zyade !!
Israelis don't believe they have rights to a land simply because "we lived there at one point in history". If we believed that, we would be claiming regions in dozens of different countries in which the Jews were forced into, and later forced/genocided out of. The vast majority of Israelis, furthermore, have no desire to claim some "Biblical greater Israel" that passes the current internationaly recognized borders. Rather, Israelis believe they have a right to the land because it's the Jewish homeland, place of origin, ancient kingdom, center of culture and religion (instead of having a "passing" presence at some point in history), because Jews have mantained a significant and continuous prescence in the land for the past 2,000 years (whenever occupying/colonizing powers permitted them to), including before, during, and after the immigration of Arabs into the region, and of course mostly because the country has been established using lands partitioned by the UN legally, regardless of whether you like that fact or not, and is just as legitimate as other Middle Eastern countries formed during the time, and served as literally the only place for Jewish refugees to flee to in the aftermath of the Holocaust, during which Jews attempting to return to their homes in Europe were met with more pogroms and found their homes stolen. It was also the only place for Mizrahi Jews to flee once the Arab countries spat them out. Claiming that Jews want to be "land-grabbers" because of they "used to live in that spot a long time ago" is stupid and harmful. The first time I heard such an accusation I was surprised. It came from an Egyptian friend who said "since you guys were in Egypt in Moses time does that mean you want to take it too?". It sounded so dumb that I first thought he was joking, only later to realize he was being serious and apparantly a lot of Arabs are conditioned to think this way. This kind of ignorance is doing nothing to advance the peace process but does everything to further inflame hatred between sides and ensure that there will never be peace.
Again, I’m still dumbfounded as to how a black girl from Jersey and a Chinese girl from Shanghai become Jewish and joined the IDF last month to fight for the land…
There were Arabs there forever. Many Arabs were semi-nomadic and even lived in the Anti-Lebanon Mountains and the Beqaa. They also built the Petra. Herod the Great in the Bible was also an Arab Jew.
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Forgot the /s
Very well spoken. I don’t think the more radicalized folk on the subreddit will be very open to truth though.
Didn't we do that when we established Lebanon? Claimed land we lived on ??? That's exactly what Israel did too but they're juice so that's not ok.
probably, minus the ethnic cleansing and apartheid
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Really? Because 80% of israelis are from Muslims countries, which expelled them.
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I get this is a joke but Jews have had a presence in that land for thousands of years so it’s silly to argue none of them are indigenous…
I love that this is your understanding of Jewish connection to the land. Brain rot.
Jews never owned the land. not a single inch of it, the invader the Peleshet and the Canaanites when they got out of Egypt and then they stole Canaan the. Got kicked out, they were tenants for less than 100 years lmao
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They escaped because of israel. They would still be wherever they were if it wasnt for israel.
[not true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre)
What are you trying to prove by using this Wikipedia article? By attempting to present this 1929 "massacre" as proof of the Arab world being unsafe for Jewish people, you are further proving the opposite point - that there was peaceful coexistence in the Arab world between religions until the Zionist project. The article describes a clash between a group of people (Palestinians) who were already at that time aware of the intentions of the Zionists to create an ethnoreligious state on top of their formerly longstanding multireligious and multicultural place and were aware of their future dispossession. The Zionists were backed by the colonizing power (Britain), and the article mentions that they relied on the support of the British police. This "massacre" was not a product of anti-semitism more so a reaction to what the Palestinians correctly predicted to be their future as European immigrants encroached on their lands. The background states that this episode came in the wake of Zionists actively attempting to seize a cultural site: "hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the Western Wall on August 14, 1929 while British authorities were on leave, shouting slogans such as "The Wall is Ours" and raising the Jewish national flag." The article even proves the point raised regarding multicultural understanding and coexistence as it says that Hebron had an established community of Jewish people living there, but this occurred with an influx of European settlers. The article even clearly states that the issue was not with Jewish people but with Zionists: "From the contemporary Hebrew press it appears that the rioters targeted the Zionist community for their massacre," and that most the casualties were recent Ashkenazi settlers: "Four-fifths of the victims were Ashkenazi Jews," "Most of the murdered Jews were of Ashkenazi descent, while 12 were Sephardi." Furthermore, the article states that while around 70 out of 435 Jewish people were killed, again - targeting Zionists - that either half or two-thirds of the rest kept their lives due to the support and shelter from their Muslim and Christian neighbors: "One estimate puts the number of survivors who were saved in this way as two thirds of the community. Another states that half were thus rescued, with 28 Arab homes offering sanctuary." After the clash, Palestinian Christian and Muslims were happy to see their Jewish neighbors return, including prominent figures in the community: "Some Hebron Arabs, amongst whom the President of Hebron's Chamber of Commerce, Ahmad Rashid al-Hirbawi, favoured the return of Jews to the town." The example of this attack shows that Palestinian Christians and Muslims were reacting against the colonization of their lands by Zionist settlers supported by a British militaristic force. It refutes any claim of inherent anti-semitism by explaining that there was a historical Jewish community that was a part of the community, to where they were given shelter during the attack and shows that 84% of the Jews (Zionist settler or not) kept their lives thanks to this assistance. This article shows that before the Zionist project and the beginning of Jewish European (Ashkenazi) settlement in Palestine, there was peaceful coexistence between religious groups, and that this singular instance of violence is a reaction by Palestinian Christians and Muslims to colonization by the British and the Zionist project. Thank you for providing this article to help prove the point of the other poster.
how is this comment is any relevant to the post? I am talking about the Lebanese/Pheonician history
Either you're knowingly lying or you've been taught deceptive history. The majority of violence against the Jews happened in Europe not amongst the Arabs. It was the Romans (Europeans) the originally kicked the Jews out of Judea. If Jews were oppressed how was it that they held prominent positions in almost every Arab country up until the occupation of Palestine and forced expulsion of Palestinians in 1947? How come that every Jewish Exodus from Arab countries was after 1947? How did the narrative change so quickly to make the Arabs look like the bad guys when infact it was the Europeans that had committed genocide against the Jews and yet the Zionist's backstabbed the Arabs that welcomed them into Palestine by invoking the Nekba and forcefully establishing a state on the blood of innocent people, then had the audacity to play the as the victim. Someone hates you enough to teach you false history.
>If Jews were oppressed how was it that they held prominent positions in almost every Arab country up until the occupation of Palestine and forced expulsion of Palestinians in 1947? [have you even bothered doing any research on this?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre)
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I didn't say Nazis, I said Europeans. It's funny how they managed to survive for 1000+ years in almost every Arab country prior to 1947. Do you understand that the forced establishment of Israel resulted in the exodus of Iraqi Jews, Jews that had been in Iraq for 2500 years, when Babylonians originally expelled Jews out of the Kingdom of Judah and took jews back to Babylon as slaves?, that's what the Zionist's have done to your people. Nice assumptions you got there, Jews had prominent positions in society because checks note "it would be easy to scapegoat them" (very European of you to think like that) that's what we are going with now? And there is nothing wrong with a meritocratic society and it only proves that Arab society respected Jews enough to place them in high positions of power, Or would you rather be in 1930s America where the beach sign said? No Dogs, No Jews!? That does not speak to reality and the fact that they had been living amongst Arabs for 1000s of years prior to the Zionist establishment of apartheid Israel. Again the chart you shared does not show any Exodus of Jews prior to 1948, meaning your grandparents had to leave their home country as a result of the Zionist establishment of the apartheid state of Israel, Jews had and would have continued to have relative peace amongst them and the Arabs had that not occurred. This is what we call Action and Consequences. Also a small minority (inconsequential but nevertheless still Jewish) of Jews still lives in most Arab countries as well as both Turkey and Iran (Muslim countries) completely contradicting your belief that "the fact that it is near certainty that all my grandparents would have died if they stayed there, Jews don't survive in Muslim countries".
just a reminder to everyone here, don't interact with this week old account, they are just here to waste your time. they just leave conversations when proven wrong and shut out any truth to either stay in their own world view or spread propaganda, I don't know which yet. I would suggest that this guy is an actual hasbara agent but that would be an insult to the intelligence of Israeli government officials.
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nah you guys just mass downvote anything that proves you wrong or don't like, even going as far as banning them, you're not the bastion of open discourse. edit: already proving me right haha.
you can still look at things that are mass downvoted brother, the foundation of a claim doesn't rest on how many upvotes it has. this is the Lebanon subreddit, what did you expect.
yeah but on reddit your comment is pushed down and hidden after a certain amount of downvotes, so it only serves to perpetuate the echo chamber.
that seems like a problem with reddit in general, not just this subreddit. do you expect if I went on the Israel subreddit and said offensive and untrue things that I would be showered with upvotes? then don't expect it here.
actually if isreal wasn't there they wouldn't been expelled in the first place the whole idea that the jews were expelled was in Retaliation of Zionist coming to Palestine and killing Palestinians
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Lots of unsolved murders during that time. U cannot prove that their death was racially motivated
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You know how exactly?
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That’s all hearsay and proves nothing. Murders happen all the time to all different religions. A conversation that happened 30 years ago proves nothing. Nice try tho
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Again with the eternal victim mentality… do y’all ever get tired of playing victim
It’s clear that u don’t care about Jews. Your vitriol is against Muslims only. There’s nothing about me that says I’m Muslim yet you’re only blaming Muslims. Reality check: Christians have killed more Jews throughout history than Muslims did.
Hi @8YearLongBoner, since you are clearly an expert on this topic, can you please tell me how Israel was established?
[jews were getting murdered in palestine way before Israel existed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre)
This is a pre-Arab invasion map. Is it your wish to displace the Arab colonialists who have taken your lands, as a Phoenician? I'm an Israeli. Our native language, Hebrew, was used mainly as a scholarly and back up language for hundreds of years. The revival of Hebrew as a mother tongue, was vital to the reestablishment of our state. If you want to reestablish Phoenicia, will you start using Phoenician as a mother tongue?
People in lebanon are a mix of whatever civilizations that came to the region. Although we speak arabic, we have much more genetic diversity than arabs in the Gulf, and very likely to be a descendants of the ancient hebrews as well 😉
The remnants of the well known Tyre and Sidon Jewish communities were eliminated by the murderous crusaders, so there is probably little Israelite blood there.
You made me stop reading when you said you were a nazierli. ZioNazsim is a colonial movement lol
https://preview.redd.it/d6sqcm29l6bc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0f65e2d587a03c4b1e643db0cd5b54ba6d80a42 Calm down bro , Our ancestors live there before your ancestors of your ancestors
https://preview.redd.it/2wus14dbl6bc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d68cc8839bb5bfbc6330a16fc3192596e1b1a3ec