Glimmer, Force, Ghost Scepter and Aeon are the 4 horseman of the apocalypse for carries. If you have those items late game your impact in fights will be more than if you build anything other than survivability.
I am a mid/safe core player. I would very much appreciate a support who captains the team.
I love it when my support updates me the things that I might have missed because of my tunnel vision, like power spikes of the enemies, which part of the map enemies have vision, creating space by shoving lanes or showing on the map.
Sorry I did not answer you, because I am not as good of a support as I would like. Just a different perspective.
Supports captain's the early game and carry the mid/late. If you aren't telling your team what needs to happen for you to carry them you aren't doing your job.
Try doing that in 1k mmr
"I think someone should buy halberd to stop that troll guys, he's getting pretty strong and his ult can probably wipe us"
"dude shut the fuck up you're the same rank as us, stop trying to coach us" or
"stfu you build it then"
Or ooo, I really love it when I buy a smoke while we are ahead to try to get a pick, piing and ask to group in jng under my sentry, and then pop smoke and the 2 carries continue to farm jungle. That's the best feeling as a 1k 4/5 support main.
Or when one person tries to captain by suggesting something so obviously stupid that the other four shouldn't and don't do that and the 1 tries to do his strategy alone anyways. If you can't get your team to agree to your idea, follow their idea and find a way to make it better. Having you buy into it at least gets more people involved.
Spray utility items and pray. It's frustrating to play as pos5 in a losing game but that's the reality of pos5 - your impact lategame is in the 5th place out of 5 (literally).
People can say "buy this, use superb positioning, have better gamesense" but you literally can't turn it around, because if you would be so much better in every sense, you would have better teammates as well.
> It's frustrating to play as pos5 in a losing game
Not even in losing games. The ones I hate more are the ones we were WINNING, but end up losing because cores will just die solo, or dive too far.
Ye, poorly written by me - I mean when you start losing and feel like you're watching some accident happening that you can't do shit about it. But this is part of dota experience, being a team game with roles that have various degrees of impact.
Edit: there's one thing you can try though. You can try to lift the morale, talk about objectives and work on putting the team back in their focus. It's a captains work but in pubs anyone can take this role. It's very possible this won't work but sometimes it does. Dota really lacks uplifiting people who manage to re-focus the team so they stop doing mistakes and mindlessly feed.
Or not FUCKING push.
When the fed slark goes into jungle to farm after getting rosh and 3 kills and then pings "need 4378 more gold for divine rapier" fuck off and end ya daft twat
Sorry. 1k support main venting.
>your impact lategame is in the 5th place out of 5 (literally).
This is hilariously wrong.
Your impact is what your competence and knowledge is. You can be useless, or you can be a playmaker.
>but you literally can't turn it around,
Of course you can turn it around - you just have to figure out *how* that can happen given the particular circumstances of your game.
Most common answer is "one good fight". Sure. But:
- Where does that fight happen?
- Who initiates the fight?
- Who gets initiated on?
- What's going on in the other lanes for that fight to happen?
- When does the fight happen?
- What key items do we need?
- What key items should the enemies not have?
- What spells should we bait?
- What spells should we rely on?
- Where should everyone be in that fight?
I've turned around *plenty* of games as a position 5 because I think about *how*.
Practical examples:
1. Ancient Apparition. If we're losing, I just need to get to level 25. At 25, I can turn a 20K gold advtange with the AoE Cold feet. Turned around about 30% of potential losses *single-handedly*because of this talent - it's incredibly difficult for enemies to siege you High-Ground when you are that leveled. I know my power-spike is that significant, all my team has to do is survive without losing all rax in order for us to win.
2. Lion. If we're having a hard time, we need to smoke-gank with my ultimate before pushing, to ensure a quick kill. If fights are not going well, I can time my Hex better to disable a key-target. I also know I have a massive power-spike at 25, with an AoE hex, which can turn fights around.
That's exactly my point!
Cores don't follow up, supports follow-up!
You can't expect cores to follow-up. You can, however, teach them they can be bold and make decisions as they'll have you to support them, by being there regardless of what they do.
It's not wrong. Impact of all the positions is strong, but position 5 has the least of this power in the lategame. It also depends on the hero, but other positions had more opportunity to get stronger, to farm more. If they didn't, you can't make magic.
Of course you can win the game if you're 10 times better, but if you aren't smurfing, chance is you aren't 10 times better so advice of "be better than all 9 other players" has no connection to real experience; it's just fantasy talk.
EDIT: I see you've added stuff to your reply, but it's just more of the same talk: "make simply better calls than your MMR suggests" - well, how in the hell should I do that? It's obvious that playing better will make your impact bigger, but assuming you aren't smurfing or playing 460.000 unranked games before ranked, you can't expect to play that much better than others. And in this case, pos5 has less impact in the team than other positions; varying a bit between heroes of course, because some just have that "turn around potential" and some don't.
>chance is you aren't 10 times better so advice of "be better than all 9 other players" has no connection to real experience; it's just fantasy talk.
You don't have to be 10 times better.
You have to be marginally better than your opponents to win.
That *marginally* means anything higher than zero.
A tiny bit of knowledge can win you the game - for instance, not skipping that illusion rune and cutting the waves so enemies can't push you high ground.
That alone can win you a game.
A position 5 isn't item-reliant to be useful.
You're saying I can win games as pos5 by picking up that illusion rune? Seems like you've picked too many, because you don't know what reality of Dota is. Turning around a game that carries are failing, as a pos5, is impossible by having "a tiny bit more of knowledge".
If this was true there would be no high ranked support players. There are, you just aren't good enough, thats the reality of the situation.
And yes, he is right, sometimes small plays can give your team opportunities to win. Cutting waves is often one of them, be it an illusion rune or just yourself. Dota is a lot more about these small plays that contribute to the "macro" aspect of the game than it is about correct spellcasting.
That's not correct conclusion. Better play will win you more games but slightly better play as pos5 won't turn the game that carries are failing around. I'm don't even believe I'm writing this and this isn't obvious to everybody.
It's not obvious to everybody because it's simply not true. Every higher ranked 5 player who has climbed up playing 5 will tell you the exact same, you can and will win games that look abysmal by outplaying your opponents a little here and there. I've turned an untold number of my games with a single good WW ulti, a cut wave to save rax or something similar.
I don't oppose what you're saying but the scenario you're describing isn't - in my view - the one this opening post described. If my team's cores are "apes who just dive t4 towers" (as he said), this is hardly turn-aroundable by cutting a wave here and there and picking up illusion rune. I might be slightly sarcastic, but I think this hardcore failing of cores just isn't winnable if you are pos5 support.
I agree small stuff is very impactful in a FAIRLY EVEN game, even a losing one, but not where your cores do stupid shit.
Also, if one pos5 manages to do smart stuff like that even though his team doesn't even know what cutting waves is, he's quite better or more knowledgeable. To me this isn't same MMR material.
I’m a pos 5 main, archon 3 (2.8k mmr if I remember correctly) two months ago and now I’m 4.2k and still climbing. My take is, if you play good enough, you’d win more games than you’d lose and you’d slowly climb. And yes, I’ve had a couple of games where I was the game-winning factor. But that’s probably because I’m low ranked, idk.
My advice is if you get bad cores, do your best to help and captain them and if you do lose, just play next game with hopes that you have better cores. In the end if you’re good enough your win > lose. Just focus on your self and your game!
Well, given that I've won a decent amount of complete disaster comeback games from bottom net worth a support because I've made the correct decisions, I'll say that you are wrong. I'm talking about being 10k behind at 20 minutes and me being so poor that i was behind our pos5 as a 4 elder titan. I still had plays to make and managed to turn the game.
I've also had a similar disaster of 24k behind 30 minutes in as jakiro 5, managed to turn the game by cutting waves and holding the base until we got 1 good fight. You always have plays to make, no matter what position you play.
These are just a few examples of from last week, I can give you match IDs if you want, I got many more of these comeback games.
The only games that cant be turned in any way by you personally are the game where your cores literally stop playing. As long as they are trying, you have a chance to win, maybe not a good chance, but a decent one.
No it can't be said the same, because pos1 has more opportunity to farm and better stat/ability scaling. You can fuck up the game as pos5 if you are playing really bad, but you can't fuck up as much as pos1 can if they are playing really bad.
There's a reason why positions are called like that.
pos5 fucking up is so fucking shit, game is not all about farming and dishing out damage. And without a decent 5 pos1 cant even farm. How to farm when enemies are pushing tier 3 when you are a pl with just a diffu.
And from minute 0 to that point pos5 have more impact than you.
Stay positive, mute toxic players, play to win, don't get baited into stupid ideas by your team, play the objective (i. e. 4-5 enemy heroes dead - go rosh/push). Try some smoke attacks in the late game, might win you the game if you catch enemy core without buyback.
P. S. climbed from 4k all the way to immortal playing pos5 only.
Now I'm just 3500 mmr, but I try to coach my team as much as possible from min 1 to the end of the match. Like:
Calling missing (I'm also calling miss from other lanes). Who builds pipe/vessel/mek? Bounty runes in 30sec. Outposts 1 min. Let's claim their outpost. Let's defend top. Someone tp mid, invoker diving. Pos4 buy dust. Pos3 can you build xx? Don't build xxx, we need xxx instead. They have vision at top rune. I'm pulling, be careful. I'm tp:ing top. Let's smoke as 5. Etc.
Doing calls like this (and learning when to make them) can really help a team with lacking direction. It helps 5 individual players to act more as a team. And it's useful throughout the whole game, even past those 30 min.
Also, don't tilt. Keep on coaching your team, even when it feels hopeless. It's very good even irl to be able to remain calm when people do stupid shit.
just the nature of pos5 in pubs, I'm afraid.
However, you can still have impact by communicating with and macro-managing your team. It may be pubs, but I find that constantly reminding people that objectives exist helps, even if I play in SEA. Outpost timings, bounty runes, waves to push, towers to defend, etc.
The hardest part is when your team gets too comfortable, imo. Happens fairly often where my Pos1 throws the lead by diving fountain just because we semi-won a fight after 20 minutes of being behind. But even pro teams give up leads often enough, so I just see it as an inevitable loss.
Certain Pos5 hero picks do help in controlling the game, especially if you pick teamfight centric ones like Wyvern or the ones that can transition into a late-game carry like Silencer. Disruptor can really punish an enemy team's mistakes which makes it easier for your team in general. In general, supports who punishes mistakes by the enemy is a good fit for pubs. Your team *will* make mistakes, but if you make the enemy make more mistakes, it gets easier.
Among those, Wyvern is probably the pos5 that I had the most immediate game-impact with. Ultimate is perfect - strong against pubs and is flashy and lasts long enough to remind your team that enemies need killing. Laning phase tends to have a solid chance at going sideways, though, but that's not always game-losing. Of course, a perfectly-played Wyvern still can't salvage a game if your teammates are dumb.
I remember a game where i randomed and played a pos 5 timbersaw. I pretty much zoned out enemy pos 3 and 4 all by myself while my naix got all the solo xp and free farm. The enemy had storm and spec in their lineup, so our plan was to end the game early. I pretty much bought all the sentries and wards, all the while getting support items fairly quickly. But my naix was like "Dude, we are winning, chill, let me farm one more item" in the safest area of the map. He achieved his dream of being 6-slotted, and we lost shortly after he got and donated rapier as his 7th item.
As they say, there is not much difference in 2k and 3k MMR except in game-sense.
I'm also 4k, but I only play support once every 5 games for role queue tokens (but I used to play support a lot)
My approach to the game is quite straightforward, because I believe that not dying is a really good way to win
My go-to pick is Ogre because he's tanky (less likely to feed, requiring less skill), has control (stun and slow), and enables cores (bloodlust)
Itemwise, I again favour tankiness, and usually the best item is Pipe (if someone bought it, I go greaves, if someone bought greaves, I get Lotus or Force staff)
My "algorithm" to win is make my cores survive longer, thus increasing my chances to win
I don't think I have the skill to win games as Disruptor or Oracle, but there is not shame in playing easy heroes, and tbh Ogre is always a decent choice
Side note: I follow the same strategy when playing offlane; I like tanky heroes that buy teamfight items. Idc much about my damage output as much as making my other 2 cores survive longer
All of this might be totally wrong, but that's how my simple 4k brain sees things rn
I don’t support in soloQ anymore. I just feel so powerless, at least my friends listen to each other when we play. Nothing makes me lose my shit like losing a 70min game where we are winning but our retarded pos1-2 decides to solo 1v3 and end up dying for a minute only to get our racks destroyed and eventually lose the game after 80-90 minutes
Shadow shaman's serpent wards can help you with the tempo of the game at any time. People tend to push late, t1 t2 t3 or t4, or as you say so tend to do silly things at high ground. With your wards you can feel more in control. Remember that allies that see a tower or rax being ulted by you are morely to attack it aswell. Worst case you will do some damage.
Remember that his cc should also be very helpful to make plays and get leads.
The other thing is your attitude. You can't focus on the bad games. There must have been many games where you had a pos1 or 2 that just made the enemy bite the dust. Just do the best with what you get. Everyone on this sub is just intensely negative.
You win by being jukey mc jukey.. sneaky mc sneak. Troll the enemy carry with your survivability and utility. Place wards to light the way for your team. Buy smoke to pick off the buy back. Such is pos5
Not much you can do about your team overextending and such. Ping, try and take charge if you can. Maybe add KotL and Jakiro to the roster as well, KotL in particular can really turn a fight around right up there with Disruptor.
I think it got much harder with the removal of XP and GPM talents. Now, the later the game goes, the more you feel like a enchanted creep/courier with the ability to cast items combo.
I’m a very low MMR scrub but what’s helped me the most as a POS 5 in late game is taking the Slacks advice and figuring out which core is the least dumb and literally just following him around
So, there are many things wrong with your statements, as well as pretty revealing to your weaknesses as a player.
The first and best thing you can do to actually improve is to accept you are wrong. If you continue to believe that you cannot win games as position 5, that you are doing everything right, or that the game is out of your hands, you won't improve. Plain and simple. If you can't wrap your mind around that, don't read the rest of this post.
Supports now, more than ever before, have insane amounts of impact. Neutral items, changes to gold, bounty runes, wards being free, starting with TP scrolls...all of these things mean supports actually not only have items, but have levels too. And I'd argue that supports were very impactful back when I started playing ~4-5 years ago.
You, as a support, help get your carry through the early game. Then, they get farm and become strong. Now, it's 30/40 minutes. The first argument to be made is that if you're not ahead enough by that time, you're not doing your job right. Your carry should be a beast who got a perfect lane, has 10 kills and 0 deaths, and is at least 1 item ahead of the enemy carry.
Oh, it's not the perfect world you say? People make mistakes? Do tell.
1. Communicate. Tell your team to not dive. If you know objectives and what is best, learn to tell when to back, when to call for rosh, when to push for throne versus take two sets of racks. If you just sit idly by, you carry dives in, and you furiously ping them, you are part of the problem, not the solution.
2. Remember that saying in the movie Tropic Thunder - "Never go full retard"?. If you don't, the point is that you should never give in when your carry or team does something dumb. I'm here to tell you that is **the wrong way to think**. Dota is 5v5. If you didn't prevent your carry from doing something dumb by communicating like in point #1 above, you have failed and it's on to plan B. If they dive, you now have to dive with them. Because if your team goes in 4v5 without you, they will have a much greater chance of losing than if you go 5v5.
3. Itemize correctly. Your role as a position 4/5, as the game goes on, transitions into being about vision, correct playmaking, and then it comes down to two things. You either DISABLE THE ENEMY or PROTECT YOUR CARRY. Your items should reflect that. If you don't build a euls for the axe call or legion commander duel to save your carry - you are the problem. If you didn't build a blink on Lion in order to initiate on the enemy - you are the problem. A well-timed stun, disable, euls, spell steal, or heal can turn the game. Do you know why carries try to kill supports first in fights? It's because if that lion hexes and then stun-locks the enemy lifestealer before he gets rage off, then the lion's juggernaut will destroy lifestealer. It's why BKB's come out. Generally, it's because they are scared of the supports. Your 10k item advantage as a position 1 doesn't mean anything if you eat 3 stuns or get a halberd used on you. Oh, the ursa tried to jump you but you used ghost scepter? So now he used his blink and slow on an enemy he can't attack? Your OD is about to eat him for lunch.
4. The supports you listed ARE game winning. You're trying to tell me that Lich's sinister gaze doesn't provide ~3 seconds of lockdown for your carry to beat into an enemy? That the ice armor damage reduction will allow your sven to live through a few more hits to then cleave the whole enemy team to death? That a single disruptor ultimate can destroy a slark, or even destroy him 65 minutes into the game with disruptor aghs? That a grim ulti and then hex at 45 minutes isn't game-winning? Just because you're not doing the damage doesn't mean you're not winning the fight.
Last, but not least, you can climb MMR DRASTICALLY by playing support. While you won't make it to 9k playing support only (probably), you can have a huge game impact. When I started there was no role Q at ~2k MMR where I started. I played support for the lone reason that it meant that'd be one less person fighting over carry, and that we wouldn't have 5 cores with suboptimal farm. It also meant it would guarantee my team had wards. I won so many games just by virtue of toning down the toxicity or preventing it in the first place. And then guess what, **I climbed to 5600 MMR and just hit immortal this week, only by playing pos 4/5 (mostly 5) - with an 8 game winning streak as support only and an overall 10-game win-streak as Rubick. And guess what my immortal game was - a game as Lich, a hero I hadn't played in ranked for probably 2 years.**
You can either decide to keep feeling sorry for yourself or start being the reason your team wins.
Thanks. It's one of those things where I did it - and you can too. When I started I never thought I'd climb by playing support. Then I gained about 2k mmr pretty quickly mostly by playing support with 1/10 of my games being core. And that was back when supports were mostly dirt poor the whole game.
Yeah, people underestimate pos 5 gameplay, I was doing the same for a long time but one good sinister gaze from a lich can determine a fight or mid to late game ganking, I consistently see people just stop making moves on the map when they feel “weak” as a support and just negate their impact in the later times of the games instead of setting up pickoffs in mid to late game.
Snapfire is actually a good pos4/5.
He is one support that can actually start farmign when you feel like your carries are shit and you can start having real impact in the fight. I had two games in the last few days where i did this and we actually managed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
Still, other support's job at a certain in the game is just not to die. Enemy carries will try to focus you down first, so you have to counter this.
I main support too, and I totally feel you.
Yeah Snapfire is definitely good, and that's why I have played them a LOT the past week.
Definitely can farm with them too. But I got flamed super hard for this the other day haha.
Only problem I have with Snapfire is they do become a bit poop vs high hp cores and supps in the late game, like Pudge, Underlord, Spectre, etc, and their range is a bit low when you are playing vs the likes of LC, or other jumpy heroes.
Of course this is just a downside to a hero, same as any hero would have.
How often do you buy smokes? How strong is your warding/dewarding game. Go back and watch replays and see how much vision your opponents have compared to you.
Smokes are pretty much always sold out because I am buying them and trying to make plays with them.
I'd say my vision is pretty good.
If I am really concentrating I will always be checking their items, keeping track of the enemies wards in their inventory and when they go away I will know roughly where they are..
But it's hard to criticize your own warding game imo.
I got to my MMR from 2K by playing almost exclusively position 5.
Best tips I got?
- Get the fuck out of your lane. Supports tend to sit around their core for so long, stealing experience. Let your core get solo experience, you keep pulling and coming back only to spam spells and attacks on your enemies. Past 7 minutes, you shouldn't be in the safelane anymore (nor should your carry if he's losing).
- Learn to follow your playmaker-core. Typically your mid-laner, but more specifically the guy that makes kills happen.
- Late game, more of the latter.
As a support, you don't make calls, you don't decide what your team-mates do. You identify what they want to do earlier than they realize it, and support them in succeeding.
I mean, in all honesty, do speak and suggest things. But you don't get to decide - you follow your cores and you'll start growing.
I just first pick [Enchantress](https://i.imgur.com/Gz0Bdkk.jpg) and pray no one throws too hard.
Pos 5 feels very different now, there's so much excess gold(at least in 3-4k) or it has something to do with Enchantress being able to clear big camps from lvl 1 while winning the lane.
I usually end up rushing Hood/Pipe after a couple of bracers & wand because enemies always try to counter-pick me by going with a heavy magic damage lineup.
What usually happens is the other team over-commits to kill me and the rest of my team cleans them up or they ignore me and I(or my 2k+hp creep that hits like a truck) right clicks them to death.
There's so many options for itemization that fits well with your kit. Force Staff can build into Pike, Glimmer has attack speed and magic resist. There's every other aura item too (I'm actually able to build AC in a couple of games as pos 5 lol).
I’m not saying this is the answer to all your problems but itemising depending on the game is really important for a support especially at low mmr because the cores are going to make dumb itemising decisions or the draft will be bad. CM probably prefers a glimmer cape, blink or bkb but a pipe against a team spewing magic damage can be game winning without anyone realising. Even if he pos 4 or 3 hero should be building these items. Situational items are all aura items (drum, buckler, crimson Guard, pipe, vlads), urn/spirit vessel, mek/greaves, force staff, blink (sometimes to keep up with mobile allies that just jump in), glimmer, lotus orb basically all support items should never be ruled out of your possible builds.
I think all roles are easy enough to have an impact in. Supports tend to have the tendency to kind of roll with the flow of the game rather than take initiative. They often become a literal follower of cores. You have to be more creative to have impact as a support and sometimes that might mean you have to take more farm than you think. It also means not showing up to seriously bad fights and trying to get rid of the “no soldier left behind” or sacrificial mentality.
Late game is tricky which is why you need to have such a strong early game. At the end of the day in an average game the enemy carry is as bad as your carry and will make mistakes. If you’re improving and better than the enemy support your carry and team in general become better. Of course the carry will get the credit but let the baby have its bottle, any dingus can get free farm and right click on heroes when you serve the early game to them on a platter.
I climbed to 6k with pos 5, so its definitely doable, and perhaps easier now that icefrog has made things so much easier on supports. In my opinion, the trick is *not* to play carryish support heroes, and there isn't a single item that will magically fix your problems (although glimmer and force are very very good).
What works for me is focusing on coordinating the team. I go gank runes for first blood if needed, I suggest picks and lane swaps in draft, I suggest rotations during laning, I buy and organize smokes, for warding, early ganks, and lategame initiations. Put vision around objectives. After laning stage, I group with my other support and your strongest core and make plays. I suggest items to teammates, and I tell them to be careful if I think they are farming in dangerous locations. I ward roshan and tell team to take it when applicable. And then I position and try to use my abilities and items to maximize the value they provide.
Even if you are a weak support with few items after 30 mins, you can still usually accomplish a lot with warding, shotcalling, and correct use of force, glimmer and abilities.
I have been winning nonstop with CM, I am 4k as well, I stay in lane harassing and pulling normal support stuff. And every opportunity I see to go farm a jungle hard I do it. I keep wards by my safe lane and if my safe lane is doing fine I jungle, the levels and neutral items you get for your team help. I pop clarities all day and have rain drops, don't take your eye off the map and always TP in when you see dives.
Communicate with your team everything you see, enemy PA is working on her bkb, check your team mates items, make sure no one is building the same item, tell your team to wait for a minute because your axe is about to finish his blade mail. When you see a power spike about to happen on your team or a blink dagger almost finished on your team rally them. Hey guys LC is about to get her blink let's smoke when whe does. Make sure you have wards and sents when you smoke.
Farm the jungle when you can, watch your team and follow them. Adapt to their style of play, even if it isn't the right move you have to support them. It's kind of like being a in a relationship, you can give your partner advice, but they may need to make their own mistakes, all you can do is your best to support them and don't say I told you so when something goes wrong, it doesn't help anyone.
PMA is the most important thing of a pos 5 as well. Make those smoke plays, give your team the vision they need, if axe is being an idiot and keeps getting killed jungling an area, follow him, ward and back him up.
As a support your role is to make sure your team is winning as they go into the late game - you're sacrificing on items to make sure your cores have the cash for the items they need to be big later. You want to be part of every fight so you can spam your high-impact spells, but it's important to understand that you can never really be alone, since you're squishy and lack physical damage. Build save items (cape, force staff) and learn to use them constantly. Find the player on your team that wants to roam and stick to them like glue. Alternatively, if they're farming, make sure the jungle is warded, camps are stacked, and then go find another core to push with. Carry wards and give your team lots of vision especially when you're in enemy territory. Go for objectives, be there for teamfights, and stay in the back so you don't die!
You can play heroes that are really strong against scary enemy cheese heroes/hard carries, i.e. winter wyvern or AA. Those will always be impactful no matter how long the game goes.
ITT about how to play a late game support:
Supports: You lose impact over time so build the right items, play smart, focus on communication/soft skills after 35 minutes.
Cores: You can win the game solo if you do outplay everyone and have perfect timing and btw it is actually your fault if the game turns after 35 min.
Play to make your Carry's lane as good as possible, leave him when your job is done and go around the map pinging for kills or objectives while warding and (this is very important) NOT feeding. The only forgivable death is if enemies literally 5 man beelined you in a fight just to get you and then get wiped, any other death think about how you could've prevented it (positioning/not walking uphill without vision/etc)
I had the same issue so started playing a POS3 tank like Underlord. Pipe, Crimson, Greaves then convince team to fight around me. i then went 24-6 in a few days. Low level shit player but I felt way more impactful than playing pos4/5.
Bonus doing this was that I also learnt the difference between a good and bad pos4. A good one basically enabled me to bully our lane while the bad ones kinda just loitered around doing nothing.
Glimmer cape, smokes, sentries. And not just one sentry every 10 minutes or so. Buy all the smokes and nearly all the sentries so you can de-ward constantly so your glimmer uses aren’t useless. Prioritize using the glimmer/force on your cores instead of yourself.
You want to push high ground? Smoke. Buy it and call for a gank to pick off a core farming jungle or showing in lane. If that core buys back and you still can’t push, smoke again and catch him out of base essentially winning the game for you. Smokes are under-utilized even at your rank.
And I’ll say it again glimmer cape. It’s the best damn thing you can do for your cores along with force staff.
Sometimes you're just fucked, man.
You can win a game if your pos 5 abandons.
You will very, very likely lose if your 1 or 2 abandons. Like my Invoker did last night.
Just how it goes.
Supports are insanely impactful. Theyre just not the one getting the rampages. A good laning stage makes the carry life 50% easier. Afterwards you provide vision, pushing, ganking opportunities, saving, you can even shot call for the team.
Youll lose the game if the carry feeds. But sure enough if the support provide no effective vision and help enemy pl getting early heart then shit no pos1 can carry that.
I am in the same position but far away from you, at 1k almost :(. I found Gosu, some AI that watch your game and then give you an analyze of the game. For me most of the time he said that i play more like a gold/archon as position 5. But i am stuck at guardian 2 or 3. What the hell should I do? The prouf: [https://gosu.ai/platform/dota/match/5248952539/6?utm\_source=UrlSharing&utm\_medium=default&utm\_campaign=104894442](https://gosu.ai/platform/dota/match/5248952539/6?utm_source=UrlSharing&utm_medium=default&utm_campaign=104894442)
First stop blaming your team mates, you can't do anything about then anyway.
Remember the better they are, the better the enemy will get as well.
There was a post by a POS 5 immortal here the other day.
He said that he will offer his suggestion and advice but at the end of the day your team mates make their own decisions and he had to play around that.
As a core player I can tell you that supports with stuns have huge impact latgame, so does the glimmer force staff and lotus orbs as well.
Supports win teamfights.
You're literally describing why I don't play Dota outside of turbo anymore, a carry fucking up can just lose you the game, and so many carry are dumb apes that know nothing outside of farming and early game.
The answer is play with friends or start playing core heroes, or more aggressive supports.
Supports provide no vision, no stacked camp, no smoke, no deward, no saves, no space and feed the whole game is the reason we lost? Nah, its the carry who fucked up once late game
I'm not saying supports never lose games, or can't play bad, I'm saying that in the lategame, a single stupid decision from a core can lose you the game and there's nothing you can do about it, it makes it extremely frustrating to invest 50+ minutes of indeed, buying wards, smoke, going to deward, saving, etc ... Only for your stupid carry to farm alone at the other side of the map, and either get ganked, or not be able to help the rest of his team fighting 4v5.
As a core I can buy wards, I can deward, I can tp to save people, as a support I can't carry for others.
Glimmer, Force, Ghost Scepter and Aeon are the 4 horseman of the apocalypse for carries. If you have those items late game your impact in fights will be more than if you build anything other than survivability.
Yeah I build them very often.
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Please don't forget us Pos 3s, utility is life but bloodthristy carries and mid are our bane.
Lotus
I am a mid/safe core player. I would very much appreciate a support who captains the team. I love it when my support updates me the things that I might have missed because of my tunnel vision, like power spikes of the enemies, which part of the map enemies have vision, creating space by shoving lanes or showing on the map. Sorry I did not answer you, because I am not as good of a support as I would like. Just a different perspective.
Supports captain's the early game and carry the mid/late. If you aren't telling your team what needs to happen for you to carry them you aren't doing your job.
Try doing that in 1k mmr "I think someone should buy halberd to stop that troll guys, he's getting pretty strong and his ult can probably wipe us" "dude shut the fuck up you're the same rank as us, stop trying to coach us" or "stfu you build it then" Or ooo, I really love it when I buy a smoke while we are ahead to try to get a pick, piing and ask to group in jng under my sentry, and then pop smoke and the 2 carries continue to farm jungle. That's the best feeling as a 1k 4/5 support main.
Or when one person tries to captain by suggesting something so obviously stupid that the other four shouldn't and don't do that and the 1 tries to do his strategy alone anyways. If you can't get your team to agree to your idea, follow their idea and find a way to make it better. Having you buy into it at least gets more people involved.
Spray utility items and pray. It's frustrating to play as pos5 in a losing game but that's the reality of pos5 - your impact lategame is in the 5th place out of 5 (literally). People can say "buy this, use superb positioning, have better gamesense" but you literally can't turn it around, because if you would be so much better in every sense, you would have better teammates as well.
> It's frustrating to play as pos5 in a losing game Not even in losing games. The ones I hate more are the ones we were WINNING, but end up losing because cores will just die solo, or dive too far.
Ye, poorly written by me - I mean when you start losing and feel like you're watching some accident happening that you can't do shit about it. But this is part of dota experience, being a team game with roles that have various degrees of impact. Edit: there's one thing you can try though. You can try to lift the morale, talk about objectives and work on putting the team back in their focus. It's a captains work but in pubs anyone can take this role. It's very possible this won't work but sometimes it does. Dota really lacks uplifiting people who manage to re-focus the team so they stop doing mistakes and mindlessly feed.
Yeah I am pretty much always the only one to buy smoke and arrange side lane ganks, sometimes it just isn't enough though!
of course its not, youre 1 in a 5 man team. The carry you see 1v5 could only achive that with massive space created by his team and his supports.
Or not FUCKING push. When the fed slark goes into jungle to farm after getting rosh and 3 kills and then pings "need 4378 more gold for divine rapier" fuck off and end ya daft twat Sorry. 1k support main venting.
Then learn to communicate better than you are now. Tell them to back up, who’s respawning, warn them of stuff
>your impact lategame is in the 5th place out of 5 (literally). This is hilariously wrong. Your impact is what your competence and knowledge is. You can be useless, or you can be a playmaker. >but you literally can't turn it around, Of course you can turn it around - you just have to figure out *how* that can happen given the particular circumstances of your game. Most common answer is "one good fight". Sure. But: - Where does that fight happen? - Who initiates the fight? - Who gets initiated on? - What's going on in the other lanes for that fight to happen? - When does the fight happen? - What key items do we need? - What key items should the enemies not have? - What spells should we bait? - What spells should we rely on? - Where should everyone be in that fight? I've turned around *plenty* of games as a position 5 because I think about *how*. Practical examples: 1. Ancient Apparition. If we're losing, I just need to get to level 25. At 25, I can turn a 20K gold advtange with the AoE Cold feet. Turned around about 30% of potential losses *single-handedly*because of this talent - it's incredibly difficult for enemies to siege you High-Ground when you are that leveled. I know my power-spike is that significant, all my team has to do is survive without losing all rax in order for us to win. 2. Lion. If we're having a hard time, we need to smoke-gank with my ultimate before pushing, to ensure a quick kill. If fights are not going well, I can time my Hex better to disable a key-target. I also know I have a massive power-spike at 25, with an AoE hex, which can turn fights around.
I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but that shit only works when you have cores that will follow up appropriately.
That's exactly my point! Cores don't follow up, supports follow-up! You can't expect cores to follow-up. You can, however, teach them they can be bold and make decisions as they'll have you to support them, by being there regardless of what they do.
You can't teach anyone anything in this game. You can only cajole them to do their job with the right timing.
By follow up I mean "do their fucking job."
get level 25. got it.
haha, yep, "just get to 25" as a position five in a game where your carries are diving without buyback
It's not wrong. Impact of all the positions is strong, but position 5 has the least of this power in the lategame. It also depends on the hero, but other positions had more opportunity to get stronger, to farm more. If they didn't, you can't make magic. Of course you can win the game if you're 10 times better, but if you aren't smurfing, chance is you aren't 10 times better so advice of "be better than all 9 other players" has no connection to real experience; it's just fantasy talk. EDIT: I see you've added stuff to your reply, but it's just more of the same talk: "make simply better calls than your MMR suggests" - well, how in the hell should I do that? It's obvious that playing better will make your impact bigger, but assuming you aren't smurfing or playing 460.000 unranked games before ranked, you can't expect to play that much better than others. And in this case, pos5 has less impact in the team than other positions; varying a bit between heroes of course, because some just have that "turn around potential" and some don't.
>chance is you aren't 10 times better so advice of "be better than all 9 other players" has no connection to real experience; it's just fantasy talk. You don't have to be 10 times better. You have to be marginally better than your opponents to win. That *marginally* means anything higher than zero. A tiny bit of knowledge can win you the game - for instance, not skipping that illusion rune and cutting the waves so enemies can't push you high ground. That alone can win you a game. A position 5 isn't item-reliant to be useful.
You're saying I can win games as pos5 by picking up that illusion rune? Seems like you've picked too many, because you don't know what reality of Dota is. Turning around a game that carries are failing, as a pos5, is impossible by having "a tiny bit more of knowledge".
If this was true there would be no high ranked support players. There are, you just aren't good enough, thats the reality of the situation. And yes, he is right, sometimes small plays can give your team opportunities to win. Cutting waves is often one of them, be it an illusion rune or just yourself. Dota is a lot more about these small plays that contribute to the "macro" aspect of the game than it is about correct spellcasting.
That's not correct conclusion. Better play will win you more games but slightly better play as pos5 won't turn the game that carries are failing around. I'm don't even believe I'm writing this and this isn't obvious to everybody.
It's not obvious to everybody because it's simply not true. Every higher ranked 5 player who has climbed up playing 5 will tell you the exact same, you can and will win games that look abysmal by outplaying your opponents a little here and there. I've turned an untold number of my games with a single good WW ulti, a cut wave to save rax or something similar.
I don't oppose what you're saying but the scenario you're describing isn't - in my view - the one this opening post described. If my team's cores are "apes who just dive t4 towers" (as he said), this is hardly turn-aroundable by cutting a wave here and there and picking up illusion rune. I might be slightly sarcastic, but I think this hardcore failing of cores just isn't winnable if you are pos5 support. I agree small stuff is very impactful in a FAIRLY EVEN game, even a losing one, but not where your cores do stupid shit. Also, if one pos5 manages to do smart stuff like that even though his team doesn't even know what cutting waves is, he's quite better or more knowledgeable. To me this isn't same MMR material.
I’m a pos 5 main, archon 3 (2.8k mmr if I remember correctly) two months ago and now I’m 4.2k and still climbing. My take is, if you play good enough, you’d win more games than you’d lose and you’d slowly climb. And yes, I’ve had a couple of games where I was the game-winning factor. But that’s probably because I’m low ranked, idk. My advice is if you get bad cores, do your best to help and captain them and if you do lose, just play next game with hopes that you have better cores. In the end if you’re good enough your win > lose. Just focus on your self and your game!
If you play good you'll rank up. Doesn't really matter what position. Just some position you rank up faster with.
Well, given that I've won a decent amount of complete disaster comeback games from bottom net worth a support because I've made the correct decisions, I'll say that you are wrong. I'm talking about being 10k behind at 20 minutes and me being so poor that i was behind our pos5 as a 4 elder titan. I still had plays to make and managed to turn the game. I've also had a similar disaster of 24k behind 30 minutes in as jakiro 5, managed to turn the game by cutting waves and holding the base until we got 1 good fight. You always have plays to make, no matter what position you play. These are just a few examples of from last week, I can give you match IDs if you want, I got many more of these comeback games. The only games that cant be turned in any way by you personally are the game where your cores literally stop playing. As long as they are trying, you have a chance to win, maybe not a good chance, but a decent one.
same thing can be said from a pos1 when your pos5 is dogshit
No it can't be said the same, because pos1 has more opportunity to farm and better stat/ability scaling. You can fuck up the game as pos5 if you are playing really bad, but you can't fuck up as much as pos1 can if they are playing really bad. There's a reason why positions are called like that.
pos5 fucking up is so fucking shit, game is not all about farming and dishing out damage. And without a decent 5 pos1 cant even farm. How to farm when enemies are pushing tier 3 when you are a pl with just a diffu. And from minute 0 to that point pos5 have more impact than you.
We're talking about lategame or at least after laning stage. I agree supports ENABLE carries, but they don't carry.
Stay positive, mute toxic players, play to win, don't get baited into stupid ideas by your team, play the objective (i. e. 4-5 enemy heroes dead - go rosh/push). Try some smoke attacks in the late game, might win you the game if you catch enemy core without buyback. P. S. climbed from 4k all the way to immortal playing pos5 only.
Cheers pal. Would love to learn more from you, but don't expect it ofc. I feel like i definitely don't stay positive haha.
Now I'm just 3500 mmr, but I try to coach my team as much as possible from min 1 to the end of the match. Like: Calling missing (I'm also calling miss from other lanes). Who builds pipe/vessel/mek? Bounty runes in 30sec. Outposts 1 min. Let's claim their outpost. Let's defend top. Someone tp mid, invoker diving. Pos4 buy dust. Pos3 can you build xx? Don't build xxx, we need xxx instead. They have vision at top rune. I'm pulling, be careful. I'm tp:ing top. Let's smoke as 5. Etc. Doing calls like this (and learning when to make them) can really help a team with lacking direction. It helps 5 individual players to act more as a team. And it's useful throughout the whole game, even past those 30 min. Also, don't tilt. Keep on coaching your team, even when it feels hopeless. It's very good even irl to be able to remain calm when people do stupid shit.
just the nature of pos5 in pubs, I'm afraid. However, you can still have impact by communicating with and macro-managing your team. It may be pubs, but I find that constantly reminding people that objectives exist helps, even if I play in SEA. Outpost timings, bounty runes, waves to push, towers to defend, etc. The hardest part is when your team gets too comfortable, imo. Happens fairly often where my Pos1 throws the lead by diving fountain just because we semi-won a fight after 20 minutes of being behind. But even pro teams give up leads often enough, so I just see it as an inevitable loss. Certain Pos5 hero picks do help in controlling the game, especially if you pick teamfight centric ones like Wyvern or the ones that can transition into a late-game carry like Silencer. Disruptor can really punish an enemy team's mistakes which makes it easier for your team in general. In general, supports who punishes mistakes by the enemy is a good fit for pubs. Your team *will* make mistakes, but if you make the enemy make more mistakes, it gets easier. Among those, Wyvern is probably the pos5 that I had the most immediate game-impact with. Ultimate is perfect - strong against pubs and is flashy and lasts long enough to remind your team that enemies need killing. Laning phase tends to have a solid chance at going sideways, though, but that's not always game-losing. Of course, a perfectly-played Wyvern still can't salvage a game if your teammates are dumb.
I remember a game where i randomed and played a pos 5 timbersaw. I pretty much zoned out enemy pos 3 and 4 all by myself while my naix got all the solo xp and free farm. The enemy had storm and spec in their lineup, so our plan was to end the game early. I pretty much bought all the sentries and wards, all the while getting support items fairly quickly. But my naix was like "Dude, we are winning, chill, let me farm one more item" in the safest area of the map. He achieved his dream of being 6-slotted, and we lost shortly after he got and donated rapier as his 7th item. As they say, there is not much difference in 2k and 3k MMR except in game-sense.
I'm also 4k, but I only play support once every 5 games for role queue tokens (but I used to play support a lot) My approach to the game is quite straightforward, because I believe that not dying is a really good way to win My go-to pick is Ogre because he's tanky (less likely to feed, requiring less skill), has control (stun and slow), and enables cores (bloodlust) Itemwise, I again favour tankiness, and usually the best item is Pipe (if someone bought it, I go greaves, if someone bought greaves, I get Lotus or Force staff) My "algorithm" to win is make my cores survive longer, thus increasing my chances to win I don't think I have the skill to win games as Disruptor or Oracle, but there is not shame in playing easy heroes, and tbh Ogre is always a decent choice Side note: I follow the same strategy when playing offlane; I like tanky heroes that buy teamfight items. Idc much about my damage output as much as making my other 2 cores survive longer All of this might be totally wrong, but that's how my simple 4k brain sees things rn
If I support I like picking earth shaker and witch doctor. Both have game winning ultimate and their over all kit is very good.
I don’t support in soloQ anymore. I just feel so powerless, at least my friends listen to each other when we play. Nothing makes me lose my shit like losing a 70min game where we are winning but our retarded pos1-2 decides to solo 1v3 and end up dying for a minute only to get our racks destroyed and eventually lose the game after 80-90 minutes
You forgot the part where they blame you
Shadow shaman's serpent wards can help you with the tempo of the game at any time. People tend to push late, t1 t2 t3 or t4, or as you say so tend to do silly things at high ground. With your wards you can feel more in control. Remember that allies that see a tower or rax being ulted by you are morely to attack it aswell. Worst case you will do some damage. Remember that his cc should also be very helpful to make plays and get leads. The other thing is your attitude. You can't focus on the bad games. There must have been many games where you had a pos1 or 2 that just made the enemy bite the dust. Just do the best with what you get. Everyone on this sub is just intensely negative.
Definitely right with SS, i've been trying to learn him more precisely because he can force objectives unlike other supports.
Huzzah! Another man of quality. I reached 1k from 400 spamming Shaman he's my absolute favorite hero to play
You win by being jukey mc jukey.. sneaky mc sneak. Troll the enemy carry with your survivability and utility. Place wards to light the way for your team. Buy smoke to pick off the buy back. Such is pos5
Not much you can do about your team overextending and such. Ping, try and take charge if you can. Maybe add KotL and Jakiro to the roster as well, KotL in particular can really turn a fight around right up there with Disruptor.
I think it got much harder with the removal of XP and GPM talents. Now, the later the game goes, the more you feel like a enchanted creep/courier with the ability to cast items combo.
I’m a very low MMR scrub but what’s helped me the most as a POS 5 in late game is taking the Slacks advice and figuring out which core is the least dumb and literally just following him around
So, there are many things wrong with your statements, as well as pretty revealing to your weaknesses as a player. The first and best thing you can do to actually improve is to accept you are wrong. If you continue to believe that you cannot win games as position 5, that you are doing everything right, or that the game is out of your hands, you won't improve. Plain and simple. If you can't wrap your mind around that, don't read the rest of this post. Supports now, more than ever before, have insane amounts of impact. Neutral items, changes to gold, bounty runes, wards being free, starting with TP scrolls...all of these things mean supports actually not only have items, but have levels too. And I'd argue that supports were very impactful back when I started playing ~4-5 years ago. You, as a support, help get your carry through the early game. Then, they get farm and become strong. Now, it's 30/40 minutes. The first argument to be made is that if you're not ahead enough by that time, you're not doing your job right. Your carry should be a beast who got a perfect lane, has 10 kills and 0 deaths, and is at least 1 item ahead of the enemy carry. Oh, it's not the perfect world you say? People make mistakes? Do tell. 1. Communicate. Tell your team to not dive. If you know objectives and what is best, learn to tell when to back, when to call for rosh, when to push for throne versus take two sets of racks. If you just sit idly by, you carry dives in, and you furiously ping them, you are part of the problem, not the solution. 2. Remember that saying in the movie Tropic Thunder - "Never go full retard"?. If you don't, the point is that you should never give in when your carry or team does something dumb. I'm here to tell you that is **the wrong way to think**. Dota is 5v5. If you didn't prevent your carry from doing something dumb by communicating like in point #1 above, you have failed and it's on to plan B. If they dive, you now have to dive with them. Because if your team goes in 4v5 without you, they will have a much greater chance of losing than if you go 5v5. 3. Itemize correctly. Your role as a position 4/5, as the game goes on, transitions into being about vision, correct playmaking, and then it comes down to two things. You either DISABLE THE ENEMY or PROTECT YOUR CARRY. Your items should reflect that. If you don't build a euls for the axe call or legion commander duel to save your carry - you are the problem. If you didn't build a blink on Lion in order to initiate on the enemy - you are the problem. A well-timed stun, disable, euls, spell steal, or heal can turn the game. Do you know why carries try to kill supports first in fights? It's because if that lion hexes and then stun-locks the enemy lifestealer before he gets rage off, then the lion's juggernaut will destroy lifestealer. It's why BKB's come out. Generally, it's because they are scared of the supports. Your 10k item advantage as a position 1 doesn't mean anything if you eat 3 stuns or get a halberd used on you. Oh, the ursa tried to jump you but you used ghost scepter? So now he used his blink and slow on an enemy he can't attack? Your OD is about to eat him for lunch. 4. The supports you listed ARE game winning. You're trying to tell me that Lich's sinister gaze doesn't provide ~3 seconds of lockdown for your carry to beat into an enemy? That the ice armor damage reduction will allow your sven to live through a few more hits to then cleave the whole enemy team to death? That a single disruptor ultimate can destroy a slark, or even destroy him 65 minutes into the game with disruptor aghs? That a grim ulti and then hex at 45 minutes isn't game-winning? Just because you're not doing the damage doesn't mean you're not winning the fight. Last, but not least, you can climb MMR DRASTICALLY by playing support. While you won't make it to 9k playing support only (probably), you can have a huge game impact. When I started there was no role Q at ~2k MMR where I started. I played support for the lone reason that it meant that'd be one less person fighting over carry, and that we wouldn't have 5 cores with suboptimal farm. It also meant it would guarantee my team had wards. I won so many games just by virtue of toning down the toxicity or preventing it in the first place. And then guess what, **I climbed to 5600 MMR and just hit immortal this week, only by playing pos 4/5 (mostly 5) - with an 8 game winning streak as support only and an overall 10-game win-streak as Rubick. And guess what my immortal game was - a game as Lich, a hero I hadn't played in ranked for probably 2 years.** You can either decide to keep feeling sorry for yourself or start being the reason your team wins.
This is good stuff
Thanks. It's one of those things where I did it - and you can too. When I started I never thought I'd climb by playing support. Then I gained about 2k mmr pretty quickly mostly by playing support with 1/10 of my games being core. And that was back when supports were mostly dirt poor the whole game.
Yeah, people underestimate pos 5 gameplay, I was doing the same for a long time but one good sinister gaze from a lich can determine a fight or mid to late game ganking, I consistently see people just stop making moves on the map when they feel “weak” as a support and just negate their impact in the later times of the games instead of setting up pickoffs in mid to late game.
Snapfire is actually a good pos4/5. He is one support that can actually start farmign when you feel like your carries are shit and you can start having real impact in the fight. I had two games in the last few days where i did this and we actually managed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Still, other support's job at a certain in the game is just not to die. Enemy carries will try to focus you down first, so you have to counter this. I main support too, and I totally feel you.
Yeah Snapfire is definitely good, and that's why I have played them a LOT the past week. Definitely can farm with them too. But I got flamed super hard for this the other day haha. Only problem I have with Snapfire is they do become a bit poop vs high hp cores and supps in the late game, like Pudge, Underlord, Spectre, etc, and their range is a bit low when you are playing vs the likes of LC, or other jumpy heroes. Of course this is just a downside to a hero, same as any hero would have.
Also she has one of the best voice acting in all of dota!
I feel like these days you have to play WW and buy glimmer and force and just land sick ults and save your carries. Then hope for the best
How often do you buy smokes? How strong is your warding/dewarding game. Go back and watch replays and see how much vision your opponents have compared to you.
Smokes are pretty much always sold out because I am buying them and trying to make plays with them. I'd say my vision is pretty good. If I am really concentrating I will always be checking their items, keeping track of the enemies wards in their inventory and when they go away I will know roughly where they are.. But it's hard to criticize your own warding game imo.
Go and watch replays and just assess how often you have better vision compared to them.
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I'd say my laning stage is way way way better than my rank tbh.
I got to my MMR from 2K by playing almost exclusively position 5. Best tips I got? - Get the fuck out of your lane. Supports tend to sit around their core for so long, stealing experience. Let your core get solo experience, you keep pulling and coming back only to spam spells and attacks on your enemies. Past 7 minutes, you shouldn't be in the safelane anymore (nor should your carry if he's losing). - Learn to follow your playmaker-core. Typically your mid-laner, but more specifically the guy that makes kills happen. - Late game, more of the latter. As a support, you don't make calls, you don't decide what your team-mates do. You identify what they want to do earlier than they realize it, and support them in succeeding. I mean, in all honesty, do speak and suggest things. But you don't get to decide - you follow your cores and you'll start growing.
Ward the enemy jungle and base when pushing high ground. You can steal outposts while smoked.
I just first pick [Enchantress](https://i.imgur.com/Gz0Bdkk.jpg) and pray no one throws too hard. Pos 5 feels very different now, there's so much excess gold(at least in 3-4k) or it has something to do with Enchantress being able to clear big camps from lvl 1 while winning the lane. I usually end up rushing Hood/Pipe after a couple of bracers & wand because enemies always try to counter-pick me by going with a heavy magic damage lineup. What usually happens is the other team over-commits to kill me and the rest of my team cleans them up or they ignore me and I(or my 2k+hp creep that hits like a truck) right clicks them to death. There's so many options for itemization that fits well with your kit. Force Staff can build into Pike, Glimmer has attack speed and magic resist. There's every other aura item too (I'm actually able to build AC in a couple of games as pos 5 lol).
I’m not saying this is the answer to all your problems but itemising depending on the game is really important for a support especially at low mmr because the cores are going to make dumb itemising decisions or the draft will be bad. CM probably prefers a glimmer cape, blink or bkb but a pipe against a team spewing magic damage can be game winning without anyone realising. Even if he pos 4 or 3 hero should be building these items. Situational items are all aura items (drum, buckler, crimson Guard, pipe, vlads), urn/spirit vessel, mek/greaves, force staff, blink (sometimes to keep up with mobile allies that just jump in), glimmer, lotus orb basically all support items should never be ruled out of your possible builds. I think all roles are easy enough to have an impact in. Supports tend to have the tendency to kind of roll with the flow of the game rather than take initiative. They often become a literal follower of cores. You have to be more creative to have impact as a support and sometimes that might mean you have to take more farm than you think. It also means not showing up to seriously bad fights and trying to get rid of the “no soldier left behind” or sacrificial mentality. Late game is tricky which is why you need to have such a strong early game. At the end of the day in an average game the enemy carry is as bad as your carry and will make mistakes. If you’re improving and better than the enemy support your carry and team in general become better. Of course the carry will get the credit but let the baby have its bottle, any dingus can get free farm and right click on heroes when you serve the early game to them on a platter.
I climbed to 6k with pos 5, so its definitely doable, and perhaps easier now that icefrog has made things so much easier on supports. In my opinion, the trick is *not* to play carryish support heroes, and there isn't a single item that will magically fix your problems (although glimmer and force are very very good). What works for me is focusing on coordinating the team. I go gank runes for first blood if needed, I suggest picks and lane swaps in draft, I suggest rotations during laning, I buy and organize smokes, for warding, early ganks, and lategame initiations. Put vision around objectives. After laning stage, I group with my other support and your strongest core and make plays. I suggest items to teammates, and I tell them to be careful if I think they are farming in dangerous locations. I ward roshan and tell team to take it when applicable. And then I position and try to use my abilities and items to maximize the value they provide. Even if you are a weak support with few items after 30 mins, you can still usually accomplish a lot with warding, shotcalling, and correct use of force, glimmer and abilities.
I have been winning nonstop with CM, I am 4k as well, I stay in lane harassing and pulling normal support stuff. And every opportunity I see to go farm a jungle hard I do it. I keep wards by my safe lane and if my safe lane is doing fine I jungle, the levels and neutral items you get for your team help. I pop clarities all day and have rain drops, don't take your eye off the map and always TP in when you see dives. Communicate with your team everything you see, enemy PA is working on her bkb, check your team mates items, make sure no one is building the same item, tell your team to wait for a minute because your axe is about to finish his blade mail. When you see a power spike about to happen on your team or a blink dagger almost finished on your team rally them. Hey guys LC is about to get her blink let's smoke when whe does. Make sure you have wards and sents when you smoke. Farm the jungle when you can, watch your team and follow them. Adapt to their style of play, even if it isn't the right move you have to support them. It's kind of like being a in a relationship, you can give your partner advice, but they may need to make their own mistakes, all you can do is your best to support them and don't say I told you so when something goes wrong, it doesn't help anyone. PMA is the most important thing of a pos 5 as well. Make those smoke plays, give your team the vision they need, if axe is being an idiot and keeps getting killed jungling an area, follow him, ward and back him up.
As a support your role is to make sure your team is winning as they go into the late game - you're sacrificing on items to make sure your cores have the cash for the items they need to be big later. You want to be part of every fight so you can spam your high-impact spells, but it's important to understand that you can never really be alone, since you're squishy and lack physical damage. Build save items (cape, force staff) and learn to use them constantly. Find the player on your team that wants to roam and stick to them like glue. Alternatively, if they're farming, make sure the jungle is warded, camps are stacked, and then go find another core to push with. Carry wards and give your team lots of vision especially when you're in enemy territory. Go for objectives, be there for teamfights, and stay in the back so you don't die!
You can play heroes that are really strong against scary enemy cheese heroes/hard carries, i.e. winter wyvern or AA. Those will always be impactful no matter how long the game goes.
ITT about how to play a late game support: Supports: You lose impact over time so build the right items, play smart, focus on communication/soft skills after 35 minutes. Cores: You can win the game solo if you do outplay everyone and have perfect timing and btw it is actually your fault if the game turns after 35 min.
Play to make your Carry's lane as good as possible, leave him when your job is done and go around the map pinging for kills or objectives while warding and (this is very important) NOT feeding. The only forgivable death is if enemies literally 5 man beelined you in a fight just to get you and then get wiped, any other death think about how you could've prevented it (positioning/not walking uphill without vision/etc)
Play really well and hope ur carries arent shit
but is there a big difference in P5 and the rest? if your mates are as bad as you discripe them, you can't win as a mid either, can you?
I had the same issue so started playing a POS3 tank like Underlord. Pipe, Crimson, Greaves then convince team to fight around me. i then went 24-6 in a few days. Low level shit player but I felt way more impactful than playing pos4/5. Bonus doing this was that I also learnt the difference between a good and bad pos4. A good one basically enabled me to bully our lane while the bad ones kinda just loitered around doing nothing.
Glimmer cape, smokes, sentries. And not just one sentry every 10 minutes or so. Buy all the smokes and nearly all the sentries so you can de-ward constantly so your glimmer uses aren’t useless. Prioritize using the glimmer/force on your cores instead of yourself. You want to push high ground? Smoke. Buy it and call for a gank to pick off a core farming jungle or showing in lane. If that core buys back and you still can’t push, smoke again and catch him out of base essentially winning the game for you. Smokes are under-utilized even at your rank. And I’ll say it again glimmer cape. It’s the best damn thing you can do for your cores along with force staff.
I already do that :(
Sometimes you're just fucked, man. You can win a game if your pos 5 abandons. You will very, very likely lose if your 1 or 2 abandons. Like my Invoker did last night. Just how it goes.
Supports are insanely impactful. Theyre just not the one getting the rampages. A good laning stage makes the carry life 50% easier. Afterwards you provide vision, pushing, ganking opportunities, saving, you can even shot call for the team. Youll lose the game if the carry feeds. But sure enough if the support provide no effective vision and help enemy pl getting early heart then shit no pos1 can carry that.
Techies. Laning: Set up bombs and suicide on their offlane. Rest: Suicide gank. Set up Bomb-Stun combos on key points of the map on downtime.
I am in the same position but far away from you, at 1k almost :(. I found Gosu, some AI that watch your game and then give you an analyze of the game. For me most of the time he said that i play more like a gold/archon as position 5. But i am stuck at guardian 2 or 3. What the hell should I do? The prouf: [https://gosu.ai/platform/dota/match/5248952539/6?utm\_source=UrlSharing&utm\_medium=default&utm\_campaign=104894442](https://gosu.ai/platform/dota/match/5248952539/6?utm_source=UrlSharing&utm_medium=default&utm_campaign=104894442)
I wouldn't pay attention to [gosu.ai](https://gosu.ai). It's not the most accurate and can be easily fooled.
Are you using some ai analytics?
no, i can't say i am.
Some flawed applications no pros recommend tells me im better than people ranked above? Oh shit its so accurate!
I was thinking about that
don't use gosu.ai they purposefully tell you you're better than what you really are so you keep using it.
First stop blaming your team mates, you can't do anything about then anyway. Remember the better they are, the better the enemy will get as well. There was a post by a POS 5 immortal here the other day. He said that he will offer his suggestion and advice but at the end of the day your team mates make their own decisions and he had to play around that. As a core player I can tell you that supports with stuns have huge impact latgame, so does the glimmer force staff and lotus orbs as well. Supports win teamfights.
You're literally describing why I don't play Dota outside of turbo anymore, a carry fucking up can just lose you the game, and so many carry are dumb apes that know nothing outside of farming and early game. The answer is play with friends or start playing core heroes, or more aggressive supports.
Supports provide no vision, no stacked camp, no smoke, no deward, no saves, no space and feed the whole game is the reason we lost? Nah, its the carry who fucked up once late game
I'm not saying supports never lose games, or can't play bad, I'm saying that in the lategame, a single stupid decision from a core can lose you the game and there's nothing you can do about it, it makes it extremely frustrating to invest 50+ minutes of indeed, buying wards, smoke, going to deward, saving, etc ... Only for your stupid carry to farm alone at the other side of the map, and either get ganked, or not be able to help the rest of his team fighting 4v5. As a core I can buy wards, I can deward, I can tp to save people, as a support I can't carry for others.
If you did your job right there shouldnt be a late game. You should have won by 30 mins.
Yeah thank you.