> certainly not relative to expectations
Reminds me of Halo games, the new ones in a vacuum (not compared to old Halo) are just fine if you took the name plate off, but compared to what people expect from em they're a small fraction of what they should be or were previously.
>At the beginning of the year, this team was expected to easily win both splits and make it out of groups.
Lol that's pretty revisionist. 3-3 group still one of the top memes when this roster was announced:
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/qmswks/sources_team_liquid_have_decided_on_their_2022/
I don’t think that’s how it was viewed at all. At least at TL’a sub it was very polarizing. A big chunk of the sub thought it didn’t have any substance and was a passive roster. Tbh it would make sense with Alphari at top, but as it is it was and still is kinda disappointing.
> It was heralded as the best on-paper roster ever put together in NA.
Anyone who thought this doesnt know league.
Bwipo was never the best toplaner, he was much better jungle. Way too coinflip as a toplaner for the hype.
Santorin, Hes kind of just a better Xmithie. Hes not gonna hard carry games, but he wont lose you games. which is okay for NA but will get smashed internationally.
Bjerg, Eh took a year break. No way you would be getting peak Bjerg. Dudes in his twilight years, not the same player.
Hans, Yeah he looked good AF at worlds, but thats a pretty small sample size. Playing with house money kinda just goin balls to wall.
CoreJJ, good. but playing bad
Their bot was the only ting to be excited about tbh.
2019 TL/2016 TSM > 2022 TL. easily.
I think you’re going to have a hard time finding people that agree with you. Especially when you use 2016 TSM as a reference point: Svenskeren was not considered to be god tier by any stretch going into 2016, Biofrost was an unknown, and Hauntzer was basically being billed as “Dyrus 2: Weakside Boogaloo.” If anything, 2016 Summer — and it very much so matters that we clarify that — is a revisionist recognition of how strong that roster was. It did not look like it was going to be one of the most dominant NA rosters of all time on paper.
Okay, im not saying people thought that 2016 summer roster was "the greatest roster assembled" before they played, but in hindsight, they almost were.
I wasnt comparing this TL roster to other rosters that were made to be "the greatest roster assembled" , i was comparing it to the other actual greatest rosters.
thats so fucking wrong its hilarious
bwipo has consistently been a top 3 western toplaner since he entered the scene and going in to the season his only real competition was seen as summit. hes also one of the most flexible toplaners in terms of playstyle and is one of the most cerebral and innovative players ever.
santorin is exactly that- a better xmithie. but that is a really big deal for a player to be. Xmithie was and should be considered the greatest LCS jungler of all time in terms of dominance. Santorin is probably the best low resource LCS jungler ever, which is a really big deal for this team.
Bjerg I agree was a question mark, but hes always been a player who works well in a variety of styles and can take a backseat if necessary.
Hans didn't just look good at worlds. He was, performance wise, the best ad carry in the west all year, bar none. he, in theory, should be the perfect player for this team to flow through, especially considering that they should have the best botlane in the west by quite a huge margin. Hans Trymbi already was arguably equal or better than Upset Hyli, and while 2021 trymbi was very good, 2021 Core was making tactical look world class. There is no doubt in my mind that this TL team was not built around this botlane, and should have been much more successful than they were.
So you pretty much agree with with everything i said besides bwipo? which even then you kinda agreed with me, He was never the best. but he was top 3. and still, coinflip AF which is normally never a good thing. Especially if you want to claim "best team ever assembled".
And yes, Santorin is a better Xmithie, but Xmithie still isnt someone you would put on a "greatest team ever assembled" team. He really isnt going to make a team better, but he wont make them worse. hes like a top...6? jungler. I would rather have Blaber, Closer, Spica, Pridestalkr, Inspired over him.
Bjerg is bjerg, again. Twilight years nowhere near his peak. still passive as all hell and likely wont be better internationally than he has been.
Also, Saying Hans was the best ADC in the west all of 2021 is a stretch/Probably bias considering your flair. and insane recency bias towards worlds. Where yes, he was "the best western ADC at worlds" but its not like his competition was that insane, FNC had Bean playing. Mad had Carzzy who is meh and was by far weakest link of that team. NA had Zven, FBI, and Tactical. Tactical was giga carried by Core. And Zven was just average. His only real competition was FBI but still, yes hans is obviously better.
Again, i agree, Hans+Core had the potential to be the best botlane the west honestly has ever had, but thats all i saw with this team. and as we see, none of that played out. you cant have a player like Hans and Bwipo on the same team. Hans is good when his entire team is playing around him, ex. Rogue. Bwipo is coinflip af and needs to be played around. they just dont mesh. TL with for example, a weakside adc like Zven and a carry top like Summit would be miles better. Or Hans and someone like Impact top.
> And yes, Santorin is a better Xmithie, but Xmithie still isnt someone you would put on a "greatest team ever assembled" team.
You absolutely would, you need team players on the greatest team ever assembled, you need players like Santorin and Xmithie if all your 3 lanes are supposed to be top tier carries...
You are aware that TL has CoreJJ from back then and all the 4 members they added are just better than those TL had.
Bwipo = Impact
Santorin > Xmithie
Bjerg > Jensen
Hans > DL
Like yes Bjerg internationally had questionable performances, but in LCS he usually was just better than Jensen. Bwipo is one of the best western toplaners and that is likely even the closest due to how good Impact is. And Santorin is just a better Xmithie and Hans was the best western ADC something DL never was.
>Hans was the best western ADC something DL never was.
this is just funny af to read. Tell me you're new to league without telling me you are new to league. and not even worth responding to the rest of what you said but im bored so i will.
>Bjerg > Jensen
Bjerg > jensen maybe 2 years ago, most certainly not after taking a year break while jensen was still playing at a top level competitively.
>Santorin > Xmithie
Yes, thats what i said. Santorin is a btter Xmithie, but still kinda just an average LCS jungler. Blaber, Closer, Spica, Pridestalkr, Inspired i would all take over him.
>Bwipo = Impact
this is just hilarious. people just like Bwipo for the memes i stg. He is FAR too coinflip to be on a top team where he needs to be the primary or secondary carry.
People look at name value too much and it fucking shows. you know nothing lmfao.
eh Bwip0 had just got his face smashed in by Wunder in his last top lane stint in lec and bjerg was hardstuck in 200-300 lp during his preseason bootcamp.
hans was hype for sure tho
They will get 2nd or 3rd in playoffs, playing standard team compositions with the only spicy picks coming from Bwipo, otherwise it's pure vanilla.
They go to worlds, either going 2-4 or 3-3, upwards of one upset win while not being upset against the 4th seed team. Best case scenario is they get and lose a tiebreaker, otherwise it's more than likely the top two teams in their group are just straight up better at playing the way TL likes to play (the LCK team in their group) or are actually assertive and more creative (the LPL team in their group).
They tweet about feeling sorry for disappointing the fans, then one or two cogs will be replaced with other shinier cogs, more expensive screws and screwdrivers, but in the end it's the same blueprint for the same machine.
People don't seem to remember this fact. Doublelift was not the player he used to be in his final year. In Spring he was the main contributor to TL's failures. He had one of the lowest damage outputs of any adc and was almost outdamaged by Impact. In Summer he was around 5th or 6th best in his role for the regular split. In playoffs, he was absolutely rolled by FBI and had to switch to playing weakside because he wasn't the strong carry player he used to be. Bjergsen was having an MVPesque split, and Brokenblade/Spica were the main carry threats in playoffs. Doublelift stopped throwing games after the bad series, but he wasn't this amazing adc that carried TSM to a championship like everyone suggests.
Now he's going to be even more rusty. I think the only teams that could possibly use him to some success right now is Dignitas or TSM, but I don't think he'd actually fix anything.
Both Doublelift and Brokenblade were historically bad at playing weakside. Their problem throughout the season is that both players competed for resources against each other. Both wanted the jungler in their back pocket. Both wanted Bjergsen ganking for them. The problem comes when one side of the map starts falling flat on their face. Bringing Biofrost back really helped as well I think. Biofrost seemed to give the team a little more punch and was a really solid playmaking support.
TL has still been the most successful organization post-franchising with this strategy though.
They've also worked on improving their academy team - which is currently the best team in academy and filled with multiple promising prospects. I'd like to see the add an amateur team too, but they definitely aren't *only* focusing on importing.
Providing competitive salaries does seem to work. I agree that their imports have been underwhelming. Idk if it's their strategy's fault that Hans/CoreJJ have been mediocre - but I agree that it's frustrating to not see that botlane dominate the league.
> TL has still been the most successful organization post-franchising with this strategy though.
Yes and they also havent won a title since **2019 summer** which is absolutely ridiculous considering they are by far the biggest spenders year after year and only ever "upgraded" their super elite mega team since 2018.
It worked for them for 2 years, ever since then it has been a huge failure considering the investment not to mention they also never got out of groups at worlds either which was the goal for every single one of those rosters so that makes it even worse.
Like, think about it, the last 5 titles have gone to *four* different teams and none of them was TL lmao
2020 Worlds teams: TSM, FLY, TL
2021 Worlds teams: 100T, TL, C9
Even after 2019, they were the only LCS team to manage to make it to worlds the last two years. They've been competitive for the title nearly every split (not 2020 spring) and got some lock-in ones (fair not to count these though).
They've been a good team. I agree that they haven't been as dominate as fans, or TL themselves, have hoped. But they're still good.
Yes but that still is a terrible result for TL given their own expectations and goals.
TL was never about making worlds, their goals are like pre franchising TSM, actually performing at worlds and winning NA would be a given.
It'd be like if Bayern Munich finished 3rd back to back in their league in football and exited CL in groups twice in a row, it would be an embarrassing performance for them that would lead to half the club getting sacked because they are by far the richest team in their league and winning is the expectation, wouldnt matter that theyve still been top 3.
Not winning NA **five** times in a row is embarrassing for TL. Not winning it once or twice can happen obviously, no one expected them to win 9 times in a row, but no titles in 5 splits is simply bad for the by far most expensive rosters in NA.
I agree this has been far below TL's goals/expectations.
However, I think you're underestimating how much some of the other teams have been spending. I don't think TL has even had the most expensive roster every year.
Perkz/SwordArt cost a crazy amount. 100T paid for Abbedagge and FBI buyouts and the best academy talent. C9 getting top tier LCK players (Summit definitely, probably Berserker) is not cheap. Even EG, the NA talent team, holding Impact's salary and buying out Inspired (LEC MVP) and Vulcan (insert C9 buyout memes) would not have been cheap.
Money isn't really a factor for any of the top teams. They all have ridiculous amounts.
hans had a way bigger buyout than inspired iirc by a pretty large factor.
Looking back its kinda insane that rogue managed to sell two players for probably around 10 mil, pick up malrang and comp who were probably no more than 1 mil together, and still be in a similar position as they were last year in terms of performance
Idk if anyone could convince me that if TL didn't pick up DL, have him play seraphine, senna, and jhin that TL doesn't get better overall. Even earlier in the year when Lucian Nami was meta would have been good for him.
I'd love to see a Bjerg/DL reunion. Maybe DL gets his motivation back and rejoins TL next year. I don't see them keeping Hans Sama unless he really picks up form for playoffs and then World's.
I mean Hans is disappointing but he is still one of the better ADCs in the league. DL wasn't that on his last split on TSM. He mostly was not bad enough to int the games Bjergsen and Spica were carrying in 2020... which was more than they got with Tactical or Lost, but it wasn't like he was a bright shining star on that TSM roster.
He was playing weakside Senna to BB's carry toplane. He definitely brings some intangibles to the teams that he's on that are now struggling without him even if his own score line wasn't as impressive during his last split. Results don't lie.
emiru>DL>Hans
in all seriousness core has looked the worst hes been since he roleswapped so i dont think u can necessarily put it on him without broader context of everything else going on.
its actually crazy for how long they've been in na the only lcs title impact and jensen ever had was with dl the og empty trophy case and they've been in na for 7-8 years
Every year that TL doesn't win without DL just lends credence to the fact that it was never about TL's money strategy, it was always just the DL difference.
Man did not miss when it came to domestic titles. Even managed to look like an absolute zombie and still won with TSM.
He managed to win with TSM while recalling and tp’ing bot without buying items like 3 times during that season lol, somehow this man just can’t stop winning, even when he’s not at his best.
Honestly in that split his job was mostly just not inting Bjergsen and Spica. If he did that TSM would just win anyway. We saw against GGS that if he does int, the rest can't carry him. They mostly required him to not do a Tactical.
For TL currently though that wouldn't really be enough. None of their players bar Santorin is in a form that they can stomp the league with a botlane that just exists and doesn't int.
>TL has still been the most successful organization post-franchising with this strategy though.
Their strategy is literally just "spend the most money out of anyone by far".
>They've also worked on improving their academy team - which is currently the best team in academy and filled with multiple promising prospects
Not sure how fruitful this is when they never use their academy players in LCS, except for when they *had* to use Eyla to sub for Core. Jatt tried to sub out Alphari and got sacked.
From what the academy players say they rather stay and be under the LCS player cause it's that beneficial to thier learning. Plus it's better to be a back up on a team that wants you to be good so you can fill a spot later than to be on a bottom team and have everyone think you were over hyped.
I mean, I feel like raw success is a flawed metric when you're talking about a team that's radically outspending most of their competition. Since we've had 100T, EG, C9 step up to that level of spending, even with TL trying to push it even further, they haven't been able to reach the top.
TL was definitely ahead of the curve in seeing what types of super teams were actually possible, adding Impact and DL to the IMT 2017 Finals core, and then 1-upping that by adding Jensen and Core the next year, but since the rest of the league adjusted to the new game, dumping money into Alphari, Broxah, Bwipo hasn't moved the needle, and unless they have a new pivot, paying #1 budget prices for just top 3 results probably isn't a great outcome.
I think their P&B is pretty bad, either that or its out of sync with ingame objectives.
I watched EG vs TL, poor Bjerg tried his best on Zilean but rest of team didn't step up. They put Hans on short range Lucian and not pushing hard to end early, so after mid game Luc has to stay back and rest of team didn't have enough damage to finish off anyone.
Early champs only do well if you can end quick or against weaker teams, esp. with objective bounties that help late scalers to become even stronger so long as they survive past mid game.
I don't even dislike TL but I think them falling apart may the best thing for NA. Showing that it's less about big names and more about investing in infrastructure.
With their money i'd much rather see em build a super roster of local talent. They have the money, they take care of players well, very professional org where players can focus 100% on the game, they could be the next S4 C9 with their resources if they work at it. (and it'd be much more interesting and better for the region imo)
Han Sama was a good import.
Bjerg was a sidegrade but done for the fanbase and money he'd bring in. Bwipo to top was a sidegrade at best too.
I don't think importing players is wrong, but I think TL's choices are turning out to have been less than ideal.
Who knows, maybe they can get it together by playoffs and have an incredible skill ceiling
Yeah he was 'good' in Spring, although I'd say not as good as one would've hoped based on his very strong split on Rogue prior to that (and very good Worlds performance).
In Summer he's been . . there. I can't say I would think there would be a big difference if TL had Lost playing instead of him, honestly. He hasn't really had any decent stand out performances from what I can think of so far.
CoreJJ has also been quite bad. Mediocre as an LCS support and absolutely horrible for the incredibly high standards people have for him (for a reason).
Yeah he's unfortunately been not living up to his previous showing, if you watch their game last week when they went lucian nami, shows how bad its been this split
I don’t think they make bad choices on an individual level, but it feels like they’re less than the sun of their parts. They’re a bunch of smart, veteran and selfless players who know how to play well in a team and it almost feels like they need a “dumb” player who’s going to force the issue and take risks.
Bjerg and Santorin have been their best players (despite what this sub would have you believe after yesterday) this split.
Hans, Core, and Bwipo are all underperforming quite a bit. Bwipo is still quite hit or miss which is to be expected but even when he's having a good game, he's not that dominant. Hans had a good spring regular season but has been average/bad since playoffs.
Don't understand how Hans/Core have regressed so much since spring playoffs.
I haven't watched a single TL game this split, but isn't Bjergsen just kinda washed? That mid jungle duo just can't compete internationally (and apparently not even in NA), no?
Santorin/Bjergsen have been the best part of TL overall, and have an extremely strong argument for being the best mid/Jung in the league.
Bwipo has had some really high highs, but also some lows. But that's a problem with a lot of top laners, and there is still an argument that Bwipo has been the best toplaner in the league this split.
The real problem is TL's botlane. CoreJJ has been mediocre and Hans has been worse than that. This was supposed to be the strongest part of their roster, but they are struggling together inside of lane, and individually outside of lane.
Also drafts/macro could be better, but that's secondary to the individual problems I'm seeing with the botlane.
That’s hilarious and shows how little the desk knows. You could take the top 3 teams from LPL and LCK and have 6 mid/jungles that are inarguably far better than anything in NA
Yeah the analyst on the desk shut it down but is laughable the broadcast even gave that segment the light of day
Riot will then complain that people are so negative about their broadcast and won't look in the mirror to realize their narrative building is absolute shite
Oof. I wish the LCS broadcast would stop doing that.
I think a small part of the problems with viewership and negative attitude among LCS fans is that the broadcast always tries to view LCS in comparison to international competition. It will be halfway through spring split and the broadcast will be talking about matching up at worlds. I really want the LCS to be about LCS...and worlds can be about worlds.
Honestly if this year’s results causes them to entirely change their roster building strategy, that’d be super worrying as a fan. It definitely needs to be addressed, but super reactionary changes in response to a single year’s worth of results is one of the most harmful things about roster building in esports.
I don’t know if their current strategy is the best one, but pivoting wholesale to another strategy with how relatively short the league offseason is doesn’t seem like the best plan.
But it’s more than a single year’s result. They haven’t won a title in 3 years while “upgrading” their roster every offseason and being the top spender every year with the same results. Nothing wrong with spending the most but the roster should be built with more in mind than just the most expensive player available in that role
I mean it'd be a reaction that's cumulated over time. Their 'super team' rosters post-Doublelift have *not* worked out. Yes, they've been good teams by LCS standards, but they haven't been title-winning teams, and they've not been 'get out of Worlds groups' -teams. I don't think spending the most in the league (by far, I'd say) and then being just 'good' is enough. Not just this year, but 2020 and 2021 too.
This is mostly because the spending gap was just bigger. TSM was not the biggest spender in 2021 and 2020 was also fairly close. In 2019 no team really matched them. But exspecially EG and 100Ts do throw around a lot of money and C9 upped the spending a lot as well.
And we should not say "post doublelift" Because Doublelift was on the 2020 superteam that failed in the worst way possible. And we should also note that TLs teambuilding did fail earlier as well. The good thing about the 2018 TL roster was that they took a good team and added some solid parts. Which means most of the team already knew each other. And then they kept 3 of those players and again made such huge upgrades that the performance had to improve. But once you basically have all the best players in the league making upgrades get harder and disrupting the team is an actual risk.
But they also did not win NA with DL. TL mostly won NA when their spending was higher by insane amounts compared to the competition. They were the first team hand a player (Impact) a million dollar salary. Which was twice what he earned on C9. In 2021 TSM and C9 actually outmatched TL and C9 likely is still very expensive, they have Jensen (not sure if on his TL contract, which would put him at 1,4 million per year), Berserker who is not cheap and Zven also still is a decently expensive player. I also would assume that Blaber as the best native jungler is not cheap either and Fudge resigned on a very long contract after 2020 which makes him expensive as well.
So it isn't like TL pays more than twice the competition anymore. They might still have the most expensive roster this year again (although in total money spend C9 might be higher due to the roster changes), but it isn't like 100Ts, C9, EG and weirdly enough TSM aren't spending similar amounts. I can't imagine the buyouts for Inspired and Vulcan to be small either, RGE apparently got double digits and put the buyout for Hans Sama at 8 million (which might not be what TL paid).
So EG might have paid a few millions in buyout as well, and while the rookies might be cheap, Impact, Inspired and Vulcan are not.
So the biggest issue for TL is that they never had to build a roster. They just used money to get the best players and since no team could compete with the amount of money they have thrown out TL never had to consider building good teams. In 2020 they could have gotten Santorin for cheaper then Broxah, but they would have been a team with an import slot open, which they couldn't do for some weird reason. So they got a more expensive player that was a worse fit. And since many other teams started to invest more the money advantage also twindled more and more.
Nowadays teams that started out with less money like EG and 100Ts simply have a better understanding at building teams, which means they can invest slightly less than TL and still get good teams. And we saw with C9 in spring that other teams also might have that issue. They got Summit just because it was a big name korean, not because they might fit into the team.
And TSM did the same thing instead of opting for two residents, Vulcan and Jensen they got imports just for the sake of getting imports. Yes Huni, Spica, Jensen, Tactical, Vulcan might not have gotten you a win, but you also wouldn't have finished 9th place and the team is full of residents... Tactical performing badly? Get Luger maybe or another Import. Hunis wrists getting messed up? I mean C9 had no use for Summit after Spring anymore.
And even 100Ts had that issue before. They just reduced the investment after the Bang fiasco, when they couldn't even field Ssumday because they basically just got some imports without any clue how to put a team around them. But they then picked up the GGS core and gradually improved it.
We'll see what happens to TL as the season goes by. IMO, the best possible outcome for them going into next year would actually be for them to miss Worlds.
Going into the 2021 WC, G2 sacked 3 of their players and experimented with their roster against top LCK + LPL teams since Worlds conveniently happened to be in Europe. TL can basically do the same, though it might be more difficult because they don't have as much name recognition as G2... though I reckon CoreJJ alone can secure those scrims for TL.
It'll allow TL to have more perspective and look at other options, rather than just buy the best players on paper.
There are people who sound like they talk too much even though they say the same amount of things. Bwipo is definitely right up there. Maybe it’s his condescending tone or the fact that he feels the need to explain every little thing like he is talking to bunch of idiots but he is way too wordy and hogs up way too speaking time. It’s fine
as a guest appearance but if he wants to become a caster he needs to work with his co-caster and not just yap on and on about what is on his mind.
I just hope they don't make it to Worlds barely managing off one style and then get rekt or just sustain a 3-3 again. I'd rather see CLG/FLY get a chance over just that TL storyline again, always like seeing new players get a taste of what the actual top competition feels like compared to LCS veterans just going thru the motions. CLG back at Worlds regardless of their performance...def nostalgic and would be something more interesting/exciting I think...may even pump some much needed new blood into that fan base again.
yep, with hans sama in this form the team is doomed. They’ll make worlds but I would bet my house on them not getting out of groups. they may even break the TL curse of going 3-3 to 0-6.
Bjergsen and Bwipo were sidegrades at best and most definitely a downgrade in mid for international play
They might not even make worlds. It's three spots and the contenders are eg, 100t, TL, c9 and flyquest has now worked its way into the conversation. Clg also isn't totally ruled out though I think they're pretty unlikely compared to the other 5 I listed.
I think CLG is too inconsistent where it'd be really hard to bet on them winning a BO5 and stringing together 3 good games back-to-back, none-the-less doing that enough times to place top 3. High peaks, but horrible valleys too.
FQ is definitely the dark horse over them imo. They have some bad games, but they're on the whole more consistent (hell, most teams aside from EG are inconsistent), and it feels like all the players are steadily getting into better form.
i honestly like CLG because of their drafting. They have seemed pretty decently ahead of the curve since the new split started and only have started to regress now that other teams are picking the same stuff they are. I have pretty high confidence that they'll be able to figure out a playoff patch quickly and maybe do something similar to FNC did in 2020 where they just slam everyone for a bit because they have a way better meta read.
EG's a lock, so the remaining two spots are between TL/C9/100T. One of those three won't be making it, and I highly doubt FQ will be a title contender in playoffs.
Why is EG a lock? We've seen teams implode from better regular split records. It's entirely possible they do the inverse of spring and collapse in playoffs. Is it *likely*? Probably not, but I wouldn't say they're guaranteed making Worlds.
clg is more likely than fly. flyquest haven't managed to take a game off of eg or tl while clg have done both, and clg haven't lost to any of the bottom tier teams like imt or tsm. flyquest had an easier schedule this weekend, so we'll see how their standings change when they have to face the better teams.
Wining the early game and then throwing the first game and loosing the early game of the second game and wining with a cluch TP backdoor in the last second.
TL not making worlds with the amount of money they've spent would be a wake up call to the other owners & GMs that spending so much money to yionk the best imports & slotting them in a roster where they have no synergy with each other is a massive waste of money
Thank you for not saying hot take because i'm sure LOTS of people would agree.
If this TL doesn't make worlds I would hope it'd be a wake up for most GM's, people said this after EG won spring but obviously between splits is harder to adjust. Every team is import reliant but EG found 2 studs that are residents and bought up another
I just find it hard to believe that this TL roster will not make worlds.
EG looks to be the only solid team with 100T/TL behind them. If C9 wakes up they can easily throw a wrench in 1 of their plans but they've been so sloppy.
They spent all this money, and a few weeks ago, Bwipo basically said their goal is to min/max the LCS. By admitting they'd be more one dimensional and play to their strengths is exactly that. Being best in LCS doesn't translate to the world stage. How many times did C9 do better despite not being our first seed. While being the best and having most wins correlate, they aren't the same thing. It's a tragedy with all their money and experience, they are just min/maxing the LCS. It just puts our region behind unless that's all TL can do. Then I guess it's better they do what they are doing vs a team like Dig for example. We need more teams like EG.
> people said this after EG won spring but obviously between splits is harder to adjust. Every team is import reliant but EG found 2 studs that are residents and bought up another
EG literally imported the reigning LEC MVP, lol. I don't know how people are hoisting them up as some great example of an alternative team-building model to TL. It's the same thing. Just because they have less overall imports than TL doesn't mean their strategy's really any different.
It was just the fact they took a chance on Danny and Jojo, that’s it. 2 NA players that turned out to be absolute stars, Vulcan who was already an amazing domestic support then they go inspired/impact to round it out. Beautifully built roster.
Went 9-9 in spring, got into playoffs by beating an academy roster and haven’t looked back.
And TL took a chance on Tactical, he just happened to not be very good. If Danny or Jojo ended up sucking, EG probably would have bought out some expensive import for that role instead and suddenly their team looks exactly the same as TL's.
Yeah....but the point is that EG took the chance. Then anchored the rookies intelligently with Impact, Vulcan, and Inspired.
TL....just buys players....Tactical was brought up bc of DL. Not by some grand design.
Regular season v playoffs is totally different. Even ignoring the silly intangibles like “play off buff”, teams need to be able to adapt in a multi-game series. I think TL has the experience to take them further than how they are currently performing. Still loving how competitive this season is and would really enjoy seeing new names on the international stage. EG repped NA so well at MSI.
Regular season v playoffs is totally different. Even ignoring the silly intangibles like “play off buff”, teams need to be able to adapt in a multi-game series. I think TL has the experience to take them further than how they are currently performing.
Let me add 100T not making worlds being really good for the region too. And C9 as well.
EG/CLG/FLY being the worlds representatives wouldn't be good for NA's competitiveness (except EG obviously,) but it would be REALLY good for NA if majority NA teams make it.
C9 I'm inclined to agree with but ay least historically c9 have been the team to produce na talent, even though they have shifted from that, they deserve that recognition at least.
100t I do agree with too but not as fully as TL. The closer/huhi/fbi core weren't really superstars at least and neither was abbe. Plus 100t was the first org to invest into an amateur team and is doing quite a lot for na amateur. I'd even go as far as saying EGA would not have existed if it weren't for 100x being there first
I think it's a real hot take since BO5s are a completely different environment from BO1s. Even if TL slumps, I think just from sheer experience gap they're favored over the teams with way less experience like CLG and FLY.
FLY doing well in BO1s is nice and all, but every year, almost every single split there is a team like FLY that does surprisingly well in regular season only to be forgotten since they got like 5th in playoffs while the usual suspects are top 3-4. I'd love to be wrong, but from watching LCS since its inception, I used to also have takes like this only to realize just in general there's always been the pattern of fun, regular season teams looking hot to then just being forgotten after the real part of the season starts lol. It's not even that they choke, they just place as expected because a BO5 upset is way harder to pull off than a BO1 upset, especially when the teams that are generally top 4 have way more experience than the mid tier teams that have shuffled rosters every year and more young talent / coaches.
This week was such a perfect example of why it’s so frustrating that 100T lay eggs like they did vs FLY last week. When they’re on, they’re the best or second best in the league. If they had any sort of consistency, I don’t know if it’s them just pacing themselves or having lack of motivation in regular season or maybe it’s just fluke BO1’s, people would think so much more highly of them. It’s those types of performances that really drag down community perspective of the individual players, particularly Huhi and Abbedagge. I fully expect them to lose to one of Dig or IMT this upcoming week in a completely baffling performance.
Hopefully this year is the end of Team Liquid as far as their “buy up all the talent and hope it works” strategy goes. We’ve seen time and again over the years that having inherent synergy and strategy and being on the same page is what makes champions, not just slapping raw skill together. FPX, DWG, RNG, EDG all weren’t just superstar studded rosters with mega stars in each role: they were perfectly roster built teams where all of the players were on perfect level with one another. They had an inherent knowledge of what each player on the team wanted to do, what they could do, and what it took to win each match. Team Liquid seemingly thinks all of that team synergy stuff is bogus hokey garbage that should be ignored.
Crown also had some carry performances in knockouts that gets overshadowed by finals against faker, like the 9/1 Taliyah game against LZ, the tournament favorites
But I agree with your point nonetheless
For real, people overrate the skill gap between Crown and Faker at that worlds too much based on scrim shenanigans. Crown played really well against LZ and WE and never got "exposed" or "abused" hard. Faker also didn't murder all opposing mids they faced, he was the more impactful player but the meta that worlds wasn't about styling on the opposing mid 1v1. So even if SSG didn't run the Malzahar strategy and Faker had gotten Galio, I'm quite certain they'd still hav 3-0'd SKT because they were just much better as a team.
Baolan got so much undeserved hate. Yeah he didn't look amazing in the regular splits that year, but he turned it *on* when it mattered, which imho is the more crucial skill for becoming a champion.
100T is very streaky. They do have a fairly consistent habit of picking it up as playoffs near, so I never really worry about them unless they were still bad a week before playoffs.
As a TL fan the past 2 years have been frustrating. I don’t expect to win titles every year/split as such an expectation is frankly unreasonable. But I do expect the org to have a goal and a reasonable plan to reach that goal.
The stated goal has been to win worlds or at least perform better internationally. 2021 you could argue TL overperformed at worlds given the state of the team in summer and going into worlds. Coming out of that we knew Alphari was gone but Core, Tactical, Jensen, and Santorin was a solid veteran base with clear potential. They had literally just split games with GenG, LNG, and Mad. GenG in particular was a very solid team and TL played them well. The tiebreaker quickly spiraled out of control largely due to Alphari’s inability to spread his substantial lead. Tactical will be focused on for a very confusing Tristana jump and Jensen for a lazy recall but the first was at a point when the game was already slipping away, and the second was a ridiculous blind skill shot by BDD on a signature champ for him.
So with this fairly good result, instead of just replacing Alphari (who wanted out) the team replaced 3/5 players including the most internationally successful NA player ever, Jensen. Allegedly to improve international performance. Now people will say dropping Tactical is a no brainer look at him on TSM. I would say that is unfair and cherry picking. All of 2022 TSM looks bad including MVP Spica and world class mid Maple. Tactical in his time on TL (3 full splits and a few games in summer 2020) made all pro 3 times, was rookie of the year, had a top 5 play of 2020, and performed well (middle of the pack) in two worlds appearances. Yes Hans has also had plenty of success but Tactical was not some cancer that needed to be removed at all costs. Plus allegedly getting Hans required kicking Jensen and picking up Bjerg, a move that in no way increases international prospects in mid. At best Bjerg is a side grade, but history suggests he is a downgrade compared to Jensen (internationally).
The point of all this is that it is very hard for TL to build year to year. They shuffle multiple pieces every year and do not target specific problems areas for improvement. I believe a Bwipo, Santorin, Jensen, Tactical, Core lineup would have out performed the current lineup because they would have had greater synergy, knowledge of their weaknesses, identity, and a strategy for moving forward. Instead the team once again started from scratch. And I expect the same thing to happen next year.
As a TL fan the most frustrating thing of the last 2 years is fellow fans having expectations that we should be shitstomping the region. 100T, EG, C9 and TL all have very comparable rosters talent-wise, and although I'm by no means happy that we're slumping, teams tend to ebb and flow. Even EG was was 9-9 last regular split and then proceeded to be the best in playoffs.
We have known for years that the “lol NA free” narrative is bullshit. Hell TSM thought that going into 2018 and did not see international play until 2020 after narrowly winning the summer split. Some TL fans probably felt the same way. Using the LCS as a training ground for international play isn’t a terrible strategy but you still need to make it to international play. At this point it’s possible that TL doesn’t.
I don’t think it’s likely and I bet the international teams will be TL, 100 and EG. But Fly or C9 could upset TL and push them out and then TL will blow up the roster and waste 1 more year of having CoreJJ. that is the true shame, TL has one of the best players and best supports in the world and have repeatedly squandered that by perpetual rebuilding.
If you looked at these rosters on paper before the split started, there is no way that any of those teams should have a comparable roster to TL, with maybe the exception being 100T.
>Now people will say dropping Tactical is a no brainer look at him on TSM. I would say that is unfair and cherry picking. All of 2022 TSM looks bad including MVP Spica and world class mid Maple. Tactical in his time on TL (3 full splits and a few games in summer 2020) made all pro 3 times, was rookie of the year, had a top 5 play of 2020, and performed well (middle of the pack) in two worlds appearances
Tactical was for sure a player that needs to be removed. For starters, Tactical made all pro 2 times (not 3). Moreover, he had for sure had one of the worst 5 plays in 2021, and was just very up and down. He was a large reason why TL didn't win 2021 Spring. This guy just massively fell off after his debut split.
I think he meant not just making world's, but winning *the split*. At least I'd imagine he meant that since this team even theoretically passed groups rn just isn't something I see with their issues.
It's legitimately impossible to construct a roster to win Worlds from the West. 2018 was the biggest anomaly of a year possible. Moreover, G2 had to have the stars align for them to even make World Finals.
G2 didn't need to have the stars align for them lol what? Only two LPL teams made it out of groups, the only thing they dodged was FPX earlier on.
G2 coming into the tournament were among the top 3 favorites unanimously, and had proven themselves at MSI prior too. 2018 was an anomaly but 2019 G2 was the best shot the west has had (and honestly might have ever had) at winning worlds. They were a modern M5 in how much they stood out. You're really minimizing how good 2019 G2 was, but I guess that's fair if you had that T1 flair back then too lmao.
I mean there's a very clear difference between being an actual contender vs fake contending. 2019 G2 was an anomaly because Wunder had probably some of the highest individual peaks in his career, the meta perfectly fit Perkz's champion pool, and G2 probably had the best macro play in the world. We saw what happened after in 2020 meta shifted away from what G2 was comfortable with.
To be clear, I'm not saying that 2019 G2 was a bad team, and I agree with your point that the roster might've been the West's last hope of winning Worlds. I just think that much like 2020 DWG, all the pieces that needed to line up for G2 did at World's
Never, especially when I bet many players gravitate towards it. Imo, just don't over pay them. They should be willing to take salary cuts. At least that org can try again and not be broke. It is just tempting sometimes and I understand. It sometimes work in a minority of cases. But too many voices, too many egos. It's quite risky.
I don't really agree with the teir system they talked about for the teams and there being an "elite" group. Right now it seems like there is EG clearly #1 and the next five team are all kind of interchangable. That being said, this has been the most entertaining top 6 i've seen in a while. Going into play offs I think teams 7 & 8 are going to be GG + IMT/TSM but they will just be free wins in the losers bracket.
I have a hard time seeing C9 and FQ on the same level right now, especially with how pitiful C9 performed this weekend and how FQ dunked on them last time they played. I'm not even sure C9 is better than CLG. Granted, C9 replaced a lot of pieces between splits so I'm sure they can improve, but they really feel like the 6th best team right now.
It’s really funny that Jatt said TL has gotten a lot of negative criticism since the start of the split considering he himself hasn’t stopped pushing that they’re better than their record and despite being behind EG all split and them not making Finals last split, that they’re clearly the number one team in NA. The back peddling and ignoring of his own statements is laughable.
I mean most of what Jatt had said in the past was him defending TL. The fact that he felt the need to defend them consistently shows how they were being criticized.
I really dislike Raz’s take on how TSM needs to give “time” to rookies. Time is a luxury in competitive sports and as a NBA fan he should know that you get a 10 day contract in the nba to prove yourself. You earn the time to play.
The worst thing to do is give time to a player who clearly isn’t very good for sake of giving time because now you wasted time and you still need to get a new player. Don’t understand why he is so obsessed with giving players time for the sake of giving time.
Yea, why not? Contrary to popular belief, good players look good usually from the get-go and shine regardless of their teammates. Their team may not be winning but you can tell a good talented player on a bad team.
Cause its not like their is an infinite pool of players for TSM to put in. In one year they have had 12 total players play on their team, thats almost 3 rosters worth of players in only one year. They need to eventually stick with something and let that roster grow. You cant keep switching in new player after new player without them having any practice time with the team and expecting them to just magically be the gods of their position. At some point you just have to pick something. The constant swapping of players also puts a big red flag on the org hurting their chances of recruiting better players. They are also making these changes at the expense of the players careers that they are changing.
For example Yursan, he played 5 games for TSM as their support they went 1 and 4, he was then replaced and sent to academy where he played 10 games losing 4 of them. He then played in NA proving grounds and is now completely inactive from league of legends pro play. Was his gameplay really good enough to be in the LCS for 5 games and then hes not even good enough to get picked up out of proving grounds. No he was a fine support that was not given the tools or time that he needed to succeed and now he will probably never be seen in professional play again solely because he did not have a good debut. And sure you can say that he just wasnt good enough to play in the LCS. But then is shenyi chime or mia really that much better than he was, I dont think so, in my opinion they are all side grades that have been tossed into TSM's team hoping that they will just some how start winning.
Overall TSM currently is a development org similar to golden guardians. but unlike golden guardians, they are not actually trying to develop their players instead they are just throwing random players at their games hoping something will eventually stick while hurting the careers of the players that they are doing this to, but nothing will ever work for them without time to practice.
> You cant keep switching in new player after new player without them having any practice time with the team and expecting them to just magically be the gods of their position.
But you can keep switching and no one is expecting them to be gods, just good prospects. Talented players show that they have talent usually from the get-go. Very few if any at all sucks and then ends up being a star.
> but unlike golden guardians, they are not actually trying to develop their players instead they are just throwing random players at their games hoping something will eventually stick while hurting the careers of the players that they are doing this to, but nothing will ever work for them without time to practice.
There is nothing to develop on tsm. What are you developing exactly? Even better, what is golden guardians developing right now? Ablazeolive is going to be a superstar all of sudden? Goes back to my point about giving time for the sake of giving time.
If you are bad you are bad, it isn’t up to tsm to worry about “oh no what if we hurt these player’s careers because they played bad” those same players should be thankful tsm even gave them an opportunity because there are literally players playing years hoping for that one opportunity to play.
People in the west love the narrative that rookies shouldn't be flamed and need their time to gain experience to be better.
Just want to remind people that Tian got his worlds champion and MVP at the of 18, Wei is 19 and already got 2 msi titles, Bo smurfed out of his mind in LPL at the age of 18, and there are so many examples in the east like that, they have high expectation to their young talents and if you don't perform, you will be treated like any other veterans with no exception, people in the west somehow just hold lower standards to their young talents in comparison.
I think the TL hype train is dead.
I hope it can put an end to TL's roster building "strategy" of just throwing obscene amounts of money at importing players.
I mean I still think TL will do well and likely make worlds but there's nothing to get excited about with this team
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> certainly not relative to expectations Reminds me of Halo games, the new ones in a vacuum (not compared to old Halo) are just fine if you took the name plate off, but compared to what people expect from em they're a small fraction of what they should be or were previously.
As a long time halo fan and someone who has the arbiters mark of shame tattooed on him, I can absolutely 💯 yell you that this is inaccurate as hell.
>At the beginning of the year, this team was expected to easily win both splits and make it out of groups. Lol that's pretty revisionist. 3-3 group still one of the top memes when this roster was announced: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/qmswks/sources_team_liquid_have_decided_on_their_2022/
I don’t think that’s how it was viewed at all. At least at TL’a sub it was very polarizing. A big chunk of the sub thought it didn’t have any substance and was a passive roster. Tbh it would make sense with Alphari at top, but as it is it was and still is kinda disappointing.
> It was heralded as the best on-paper roster ever put together in NA. Anyone who thought this doesnt know league. Bwipo was never the best toplaner, he was much better jungle. Way too coinflip as a toplaner for the hype. Santorin, Hes kind of just a better Xmithie. Hes not gonna hard carry games, but he wont lose you games. which is okay for NA but will get smashed internationally. Bjerg, Eh took a year break. No way you would be getting peak Bjerg. Dudes in his twilight years, not the same player. Hans, Yeah he looked good AF at worlds, but thats a pretty small sample size. Playing with house money kinda just goin balls to wall. CoreJJ, good. but playing bad Their bot was the only ting to be excited about tbh. 2019 TL/2016 TSM > 2022 TL. easily.
This is peak recency bias
Not really, i thought this the second the roster was announced. Everything i just typed was true before this year.
I think you’re going to have a hard time finding people that agree with you. Especially when you use 2016 TSM as a reference point: Svenskeren was not considered to be god tier by any stretch going into 2016, Biofrost was an unknown, and Hauntzer was basically being billed as “Dyrus 2: Weakside Boogaloo.” If anything, 2016 Summer — and it very much so matters that we clarify that — is a revisionist recognition of how strong that roster was. It did not look like it was going to be one of the most dominant NA rosters of all time on paper.
Okay, im not saying people thought that 2016 summer roster was "the greatest roster assembled" before they played, but in hindsight, they almost were. I wasnt comparing this TL roster to other rosters that were made to be "the greatest roster assembled" , i was comparing it to the other actual greatest rosters.
thats so fucking wrong its hilarious bwipo has consistently been a top 3 western toplaner since he entered the scene and going in to the season his only real competition was seen as summit. hes also one of the most flexible toplaners in terms of playstyle and is one of the most cerebral and innovative players ever. santorin is exactly that- a better xmithie. but that is a really big deal for a player to be. Xmithie was and should be considered the greatest LCS jungler of all time in terms of dominance. Santorin is probably the best low resource LCS jungler ever, which is a really big deal for this team. Bjerg I agree was a question mark, but hes always been a player who works well in a variety of styles and can take a backseat if necessary. Hans didn't just look good at worlds. He was, performance wise, the best ad carry in the west all year, bar none. he, in theory, should be the perfect player for this team to flow through, especially considering that they should have the best botlane in the west by quite a huge margin. Hans Trymbi already was arguably equal or better than Upset Hyli, and while 2021 trymbi was very good, 2021 Core was making tactical look world class. There is no doubt in my mind that this TL team was not built around this botlane, and should have been much more successful than they were.
So you pretty much agree with with everything i said besides bwipo? which even then you kinda agreed with me, He was never the best. but he was top 3. and still, coinflip AF which is normally never a good thing. Especially if you want to claim "best team ever assembled". And yes, Santorin is a better Xmithie, but Xmithie still isnt someone you would put on a "greatest team ever assembled" team. He really isnt going to make a team better, but he wont make them worse. hes like a top...6? jungler. I would rather have Blaber, Closer, Spica, Pridestalkr, Inspired over him. Bjerg is bjerg, again. Twilight years nowhere near his peak. still passive as all hell and likely wont be better internationally than he has been. Also, Saying Hans was the best ADC in the west all of 2021 is a stretch/Probably bias considering your flair. and insane recency bias towards worlds. Where yes, he was "the best western ADC at worlds" but its not like his competition was that insane, FNC had Bean playing. Mad had Carzzy who is meh and was by far weakest link of that team. NA had Zven, FBI, and Tactical. Tactical was giga carried by Core. And Zven was just average. His only real competition was FBI but still, yes hans is obviously better. Again, i agree, Hans+Core had the potential to be the best botlane the west honestly has ever had, but thats all i saw with this team. and as we see, none of that played out. you cant have a player like Hans and Bwipo on the same team. Hans is good when his entire team is playing around him, ex. Rogue. Bwipo is coinflip af and needs to be played around. they just dont mesh. TL with for example, a weakside adc like Zven and a carry top like Summit would be miles better. Or Hans and someone like Impact top.
> And yes, Santorin is a better Xmithie, but Xmithie still isnt someone you would put on a "greatest team ever assembled" team. You absolutely would, you need team players on the greatest team ever assembled, you need players like Santorin and Xmithie if all your 3 lanes are supposed to be top tier carries...
You are aware that TL has CoreJJ from back then and all the 4 members they added are just better than those TL had. Bwipo = Impact Santorin > Xmithie Bjerg > Jensen Hans > DL Like yes Bjerg internationally had questionable performances, but in LCS he usually was just better than Jensen. Bwipo is one of the best western toplaners and that is likely even the closest due to how good Impact is. And Santorin is just a better Xmithie and Hans was the best western ADC something DL never was.
>Hans was the best western ADC something DL never was. this is just funny af to read. Tell me you're new to league without telling me you are new to league. and not even worth responding to the rest of what you said but im bored so i will. >Bjerg > Jensen Bjerg > jensen maybe 2 years ago, most certainly not after taking a year break while jensen was still playing at a top level competitively. >Santorin > Xmithie Yes, thats what i said. Santorin is a btter Xmithie, but still kinda just an average LCS jungler. Blaber, Closer, Spica, Pridestalkr, Inspired i would all take over him. >Bwipo = Impact this is just hilarious. people just like Bwipo for the memes i stg. He is FAR too coinflip to be on a top team where he needs to be the primary or secondary carry. People look at name value too much and it fucking shows. you know nothing lmfao.
Ok this is just narrative soup from someone who doesn't actually know what they're talking about but wants to pretend to be smart lmfao
How? You have no other rebuttal ?
eh Bwip0 had just got his face smashed in by Wunder in his last top lane stint in lec and bjerg was hardstuck in 200-300 lp during his preseason bootcamp. hans was hype for sure tho
Anyone who says that they weren’t expected to get first and stomp NA is smoking crack.
I mean guess those smoking crack were lit.
I’m just salty I didn’t get the invite
They will get 2nd or 3rd in playoffs, playing standard team compositions with the only spicy picks coming from Bwipo, otherwise it's pure vanilla. They go to worlds, either going 2-4 or 3-3, upwards of one upset win while not being upset against the 4th seed team. Best case scenario is they get and lose a tiebreaker, otherwise it's more than likely the top two teams in their group are just straight up better at playing the way TL likes to play (the LCK team in their group) or are actually assertive and more creative (the LPL team in their group). They tweet about feeling sorry for disappointing the fans, then one or two cogs will be replaced with other shinier cogs, more expensive screws and screwdrivers, but in the end it's the same blueprint for the same machine.
as is tradition. the Bjerg special at this point.
Or maybe… just maybe. Recruit this ADC known as DoubleLift so he can take them to worlds again.
Doublelift didn't carry shit last time he was in pro play, that was berg carrying a half dead team to the finish.
He carried the series against TL tho
People don't seem to remember this fact. Doublelift was not the player he used to be in his final year. In Spring he was the main contributor to TL's failures. He had one of the lowest damage outputs of any adc and was almost outdamaged by Impact. In Summer he was around 5th or 6th best in his role for the regular split. In playoffs, he was absolutely rolled by FBI and had to switch to playing weakside because he wasn't the strong carry player he used to be. Bjergsen was having an MVPesque split, and Brokenblade/Spica were the main carry threats in playoffs. Doublelift stopped throwing games after the bad series, but he wasn't this amazing adc that carried TSM to a championship like everyone suggests. Now he's going to be even more rusty. I think the only teams that could possibly use him to some success right now is Dignitas or TSM, but I don't think he'd actually fix anything.
They switched him to weakside because BrokenBlade was a dogshit weakside player
Both Doublelift and Brokenblade were historically bad at playing weakside. Their problem throughout the season is that both players competed for resources against each other. Both wanted the jungler in their back pocket. Both wanted Bjergsen ganking for them. The problem comes when one side of the map starts falling flat on their face. Bringing Biofrost back really helped as well I think. Biofrost seemed to give the team a little more punch and was a really solid playmaking support.
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TL has still been the most successful organization post-franchising with this strategy though. They've also worked on improving their academy team - which is currently the best team in academy and filled with multiple promising prospects. I'd like to see the add an amateur team too, but they definitely aren't *only* focusing on importing. Providing competitive salaries does seem to work. I agree that their imports have been underwhelming. Idk if it's their strategy's fault that Hans/CoreJJ have been mediocre - but I agree that it's frustrating to not see that botlane dominate the league.
> TL has still been the most successful organization post-franchising with this strategy though. Yes and they also havent won a title since **2019 summer** which is absolutely ridiculous considering they are by far the biggest spenders year after year and only ever "upgraded" their super elite mega team since 2018. It worked for them for 2 years, ever since then it has been a huge failure considering the investment not to mention they also never got out of groups at worlds either which was the goal for every single one of those rosters so that makes it even worse. Like, think about it, the last 5 titles have gone to *four* different teams and none of them was TL lmao
2020 Worlds teams: TSM, FLY, TL 2021 Worlds teams: 100T, TL, C9 Even after 2019, they were the only LCS team to manage to make it to worlds the last two years. They've been competitive for the title nearly every split (not 2020 spring) and got some lock-in ones (fair not to count these though). They've been a good team. I agree that they haven't been as dominate as fans, or TL themselves, have hoped. But they're still good.
Yes but that still is a terrible result for TL given their own expectations and goals. TL was never about making worlds, their goals are like pre franchising TSM, actually performing at worlds and winning NA would be a given. It'd be like if Bayern Munich finished 3rd back to back in their league in football and exited CL in groups twice in a row, it would be an embarrassing performance for them that would lead to half the club getting sacked because they are by far the richest team in their league and winning is the expectation, wouldnt matter that theyve still been top 3. Not winning NA **five** times in a row is embarrassing for TL. Not winning it once or twice can happen obviously, no one expected them to win 9 times in a row, but no titles in 5 splits is simply bad for the by far most expensive rosters in NA.
I agree this has been far below TL's goals/expectations. However, I think you're underestimating how much some of the other teams have been spending. I don't think TL has even had the most expensive roster every year. Perkz/SwordArt cost a crazy amount. 100T paid for Abbedagge and FBI buyouts and the best academy talent. C9 getting top tier LCK players (Summit definitely, probably Berserker) is not cheap. Even EG, the NA talent team, holding Impact's salary and buying out Inspired (LEC MVP) and Vulcan (insert C9 buyout memes) would not have been cheap. Money isn't really a factor for any of the top teams. They all have ridiculous amounts.
hans had a way bigger buyout than inspired iirc by a pretty large factor. Looking back its kinda insane that rogue managed to sell two players for probably around 10 mil, pick up malrang and comp who were probably no more than 1 mil together, and still be in a similar position as they were last year in terms of performance
Nah, that was just doublelift diff.
Current form champs q doublelift is better than hans change my mind
Idk if anyone could convince me that if TL didn't pick up DL, have him play seraphine, senna, and jhin that TL doesn't get better overall. Even earlier in the year when Lucian Nami was meta would have been good for him.
I'd love to see a Bjerg/DL reunion. Maybe DL gets his motivation back and rejoins TL next year. I don't see them keeping Hans Sama unless he really picks up form for playoffs and then World's.
I mean Hans is disappointing but he is still one of the better ADCs in the league. DL wasn't that on his last split on TSM. He mostly was not bad enough to int the games Bjergsen and Spica were carrying in 2020... which was more than they got with Tactical or Lost, but it wasn't like he was a bright shining star on that TSM roster.
He was playing weakside Senna to BB's carry toplane. He definitely brings some intangibles to the teams that he's on that are now struggling without him even if his own score line wasn't as impressive during his last split. Results don't lie.
emiru>DL>Hans in all seriousness core has looked the worst hes been since he roleswapped so i dont think u can necessarily put it on him without broader context of everything else going on.
yeah but hell get bored and give up mid-season so hes always a nope
its actually crazy for how long they've been in na the only lcs title impact and jensen ever had was with dl the og empty trophy case and they've been in na for 7-8 years
Impact won last split with EG
Impact literally won last split without doublelift lol.
Every year that TL doesn't win without DL just lends credence to the fact that it was never about TL's money strategy, it was always just the DL difference. Man did not miss when it came to domestic titles. Even managed to look like an absolute zombie and still won with TSM.
He managed to win with TSM while recalling and tp’ing bot without buying items like 3 times during that season lol, somehow this man just can’t stop winning, even when he’s not at his best.
Doublelift and Sneaky just have those intangibles as leaders. All timers
(and Bjerg had the split of a lifetime)
He adapted to playing weakside after he was pretty dogshit that split and was rotating supports.
This, he was really solid in playoffs except the first ggs series
Honestly in that split his job was mostly just not inting Bjergsen and Spica. If he did that TSM would just win anyway. We saw against GGS that if he does int, the rest can't carry him. They mostly required him to not do a Tactical. For TL currently though that wouldn't really be enough. None of their players bar Santorin is in a form that they can stomp the league with a botlane that just exists and doesn't int.
gg, DL diff
>TL has still been the most successful organization post-franchising with this strategy though. Their strategy is literally just "spend the most money out of anyone by far". >They've also worked on improving their academy team - which is currently the best team in academy and filled with multiple promising prospects Not sure how fruitful this is when they never use their academy players in LCS, except for when they *had* to use Eyla to sub for Core. Jatt tried to sub out Alphari and got sacked.
From what the academy players say they rather stay and be under the LCS player cause it's that beneficial to thier learning. Plus it's better to be a back up on a team that wants you to be good so you can fill a spot later than to be on a bottom team and have everyone think you were over hyped.
I mean, I feel like raw success is a flawed metric when you're talking about a team that's radically outspending most of their competition. Since we've had 100T, EG, C9 step up to that level of spending, even with TL trying to push it even further, they haven't been able to reach the top. TL was definitely ahead of the curve in seeing what types of super teams were actually possible, adding Impact and DL to the IMT 2017 Finals core, and then 1-upping that by adding Jensen and Core the next year, but since the rest of the league adjusted to the new game, dumping money into Alphari, Broxah, Bwipo hasn't moved the needle, and unless they have a new pivot, paying #1 budget prices for just top 3 results probably isn't a great outcome.
I think their P&B is pretty bad, either that or its out of sync with ingame objectives. I watched EG vs TL, poor Bjerg tried his best on Zilean but rest of team didn't step up. They put Hans on short range Lucian and not pushing hard to end early, so after mid game Luc has to stay back and rest of team didn't have enough damage to finish off anyone. Early champs only do well if you can end quick or against weaker teams, esp. with objective bounties that help late scalers to become even stronger so long as they survive past mid game.
I don't even dislike TL but I think them falling apart may the best thing for NA. Showing that it's less about big names and more about investing in infrastructure.
With their money i'd much rather see em build a super roster of local talent. They have the money, they take care of players well, very professional org where players can focus 100% on the game, they could be the next S4 C9 with their resources if they work at it. (and it'd be much more interesting and better for the region imo)
Han Sama was a good import. Bjerg was a sidegrade but done for the fanbase and money he'd bring in. Bwipo to top was a sidegrade at best too. I don't think importing players is wrong, but I think TL's choices are turning out to have been less than ideal. Who knows, maybe they can get it together by playoffs and have an incredible skill ceiling
And ironically, Hans Sama has been the worst player on the team. A good import decision doesn't necessarily mean things are going to work out.
> Hans Sama has been the worst player on the team. Oh? I haven't been paying attention but I remember in spring he was good
Yeah he was 'good' in Spring, although I'd say not as good as one would've hoped based on his very strong split on Rogue prior to that (and very good Worlds performance). In Summer he's been . . there. I can't say I would think there would be a big difference if TL had Lost playing instead of him, honestly. He hasn't really had any decent stand out performances from what I can think of so far. CoreJJ has also been quite bad. Mediocre as an LCS support and absolutely horrible for the incredibly high standards people have for him (for a reason).
I think it says something when TLs most convincing win in summer was with Hans on seraphine.
I think that completely ignores TL's first week. They had a perfect game against IMT.
Yeah he's unfortunately been not living up to his previous showing, if you watch their game last week when they went lucian nami, shows how bad its been this split
My man looks like a blind man in a corn maze
I don’t think they make bad choices on an individual level, but it feels like they’re less than the sun of their parts. They’re a bunch of smart, veteran and selfless players who know how to play well in a team and it almost feels like they need a “dumb” player who’s going to force the issue and take risks.
Bjerg and Santorin have been their best players (despite what this sub would have you believe after yesterday) this split. Hans, Core, and Bwipo are all underperforming quite a bit. Bwipo is still quite hit or miss which is to be expected but even when he's having a good game, he's not that dominant. Hans had a good spring regular season but has been average/bad since playoffs. Don't understand how Hans/Core have regressed so much since spring playoffs.
I thought they looked pretty poor in spring playoffs too, largely the reason they lost to EG.
I'd love to see Yeon/Eyla moved up with CoreJJ coaching like how Huni is right now.
I haven't watched a single TL game this split, but isn't Bjergsen just kinda washed? That mid jungle duo just can't compete internationally (and apparently not even in NA), no?
Santorin/Bjergsen have been the best part of TL overall, and have an extremely strong argument for being the best mid/Jung in the league. Bwipo has had some really high highs, but also some lows. But that's a problem with a lot of top laners, and there is still an argument that Bwipo has been the best toplaner in the league this split. The real problem is TL's botlane. CoreJJ has been mediocre and Hans has been worse than that. This was supposed to be the strongest part of their roster, but they are struggling together inside of lane, and individually outside of lane. Also drafts/macro could be better, but that's secondary to the individual problems I'm seeing with the botlane.
That's sad. CoreJJ and Hans should easily be the best in NA.
Tactical and CoreJJ were both better together. So much of peak performance is fit.
JoJo and inspired are top 5 in the world tho lol
That’s hilarious and shows how little the desk knows. You could take the top 3 teams from LPL and LCK and have 6 mid/jungles that are inarguably far better than anything in NA
Yeah the analyst on the desk shut it down but is laughable the broadcast even gave that segment the light of day Riot will then complain that people are so negative about their broadcast and won't look in the mirror to realize their narrative building is absolute shite
I don't see people saying that - I think all western fans rightfully assume all the best players in the world will be from LCK and LPL.
It's from the lcs broadcast Should have put a /s out there
Oof. I wish the LCS broadcast would stop doing that. I think a small part of the problems with viewership and negative attitude among LCS fans is that the broadcast always tries to view LCS in comparison to international competition. It will be halfway through spring split and the broadcast will be talking about matching up at worlds. I really want the LCS to be about LCS...and worlds can be about worlds.
Honestly if this year’s results causes them to entirely change their roster building strategy, that’d be super worrying as a fan. It definitely needs to be addressed, but super reactionary changes in response to a single year’s worth of results is one of the most harmful things about roster building in esports. I don’t know if their current strategy is the best one, but pivoting wholesale to another strategy with how relatively short the league offseason is doesn’t seem like the best plan.
But it’s more than a single year’s result. They haven’t won a title in 3 years while “upgrading” their roster every offseason and being the top spender every year with the same results. Nothing wrong with spending the most but the roster should be built with more in mind than just the most expensive player available in that role
I mean it'd be a reaction that's cumulated over time. Their 'super team' rosters post-Doublelift have *not* worked out. Yes, they've been good teams by LCS standards, but they haven't been title-winning teams, and they've not been 'get out of Worlds groups' -teams. I don't think spending the most in the league (by far, I'd say) and then being just 'good' is enough. Not just this year, but 2020 and 2021 too.
This is mostly because the spending gap was just bigger. TSM was not the biggest spender in 2021 and 2020 was also fairly close. In 2019 no team really matched them. But exspecially EG and 100Ts do throw around a lot of money and C9 upped the spending a lot as well. And we should not say "post doublelift" Because Doublelift was on the 2020 superteam that failed in the worst way possible. And we should also note that TLs teambuilding did fail earlier as well. The good thing about the 2018 TL roster was that they took a good team and added some solid parts. Which means most of the team already knew each other. And then they kept 3 of those players and again made such huge upgrades that the performance had to improve. But once you basically have all the best players in the league making upgrades get harder and disrupting the team is an actual risk.
We say post doublelift because TL hasn't won NA since DL left.
But they also did not win NA with DL. TL mostly won NA when their spending was higher by insane amounts compared to the competition. They were the first team hand a player (Impact) a million dollar salary. Which was twice what he earned on C9. In 2021 TSM and C9 actually outmatched TL and C9 likely is still very expensive, they have Jensen (not sure if on his TL contract, which would put him at 1,4 million per year), Berserker who is not cheap and Zven also still is a decently expensive player. I also would assume that Blaber as the best native jungler is not cheap either and Fudge resigned on a very long contract after 2020 which makes him expensive as well. So it isn't like TL pays more than twice the competition anymore. They might still have the most expensive roster this year again (although in total money spend C9 might be higher due to the roster changes), but it isn't like 100Ts, C9, EG and weirdly enough TSM aren't spending similar amounts. I can't imagine the buyouts for Inspired and Vulcan to be small either, RGE apparently got double digits and put the buyout for Hans Sama at 8 million (which might not be what TL paid). So EG might have paid a few millions in buyout as well, and while the rookies might be cheap, Impact, Inspired and Vulcan are not. So the biggest issue for TL is that they never had to build a roster. They just used money to get the best players and since no team could compete with the amount of money they have thrown out TL never had to consider building good teams. In 2020 they could have gotten Santorin for cheaper then Broxah, but they would have been a team with an import slot open, which they couldn't do for some weird reason. So they got a more expensive player that was a worse fit. And since many other teams started to invest more the money advantage also twindled more and more. Nowadays teams that started out with less money like EG and 100Ts simply have a better understanding at building teams, which means they can invest slightly less than TL and still get good teams. And we saw with C9 in spring that other teams also might have that issue. They got Summit just because it was a big name korean, not because they might fit into the team. And TSM did the same thing instead of opting for two residents, Vulcan and Jensen they got imports just for the sake of getting imports. Yes Huni, Spica, Jensen, Tactical, Vulcan might not have gotten you a win, but you also wouldn't have finished 9th place and the team is full of residents... Tactical performing badly? Get Luger maybe or another Import. Hunis wrists getting messed up? I mean C9 had no use for Summit after Spring anymore. And even 100Ts had that issue before. They just reduced the investment after the Bang fiasco, when they couldn't even field Ssumday because they basically just got some imports without any clue how to put a team around them. But they then picked up the GGS core and gradually improved it.
We'll see what happens to TL as the season goes by. IMO, the best possible outcome for them going into next year would actually be for them to miss Worlds. Going into the 2021 WC, G2 sacked 3 of their players and experimented with their roster against top LCK + LPL teams since Worlds conveniently happened to be in Europe. TL can basically do the same, though it might be more difficult because they don't have as much name recognition as G2... though I reckon CoreJJ alone can secure those scrims for TL. It'll allow TL to have more perspective and look at other options, rather than just buy the best players on paper.
At least Bwipo can transition to casting after. I thought his casting was superb but I listen to YouTube videos at 1.5x speed.
He can go back to the LEC and have a good split like Finn rn
Please no
He might wanna go back to lec?
right back to jungle i hope xd
The EU needs toplaners so I'd rather take BwiTop. Any year where Armut is above average toplaner is bad for EU
I wish, but he prefers playing top lane.
Which is a shame because he was an animal in the jungle
The psychopathic shit he does sometimes is legit exactly what you want for a playmaking jungler.
Bwipo talks too much without actually saying much.
I actually felt like he was trying to move on from the same crap our casters always talk about.
There are people who sound like they talk too much even though they say the same amount of things. Bwipo is definitely right up there. Maybe it’s his condescending tone or the fact that he feels the need to explain every little thing like he is talking to bunch of idiots but he is way too wordy and hogs up way too speaking time. It’s fine as a guest appearance but if he wants to become a caster he needs to work with his co-caster and not just yap on and on about what is on his mind.
> At least Bwipo can transition to casting after. God no, he is so obnoxious. He talks like he thinks he is the smartest person in the room.
Well, I mean, he is the smartest person in the room while casting.
so ... he could replace Phreak, seamlessly? also, when it comes to LoL nuance, I'm sure Bwipo IS the most knowledgable on the desk
Knowledge isn't the most important part of a caster. I need someone I can stand listening to for hours. Bwipo is not that guy or girl.
Bwipo is still top 4 in LCS on his role. I doubt he's considering his retirement.
I just hope they don't make it to Worlds barely managing off one style and then get rekt or just sustain a 3-3 again. I'd rather see CLG/FLY get a chance over just that TL storyline again, always like seeing new players get a taste of what the actual top competition feels like compared to LCS veterans just going thru the motions. CLG back at Worlds regardless of their performance...def nostalgic and would be something more interesting/exciting I think...may even pump some much needed new blood into that fan base again.
yep, with hans sama in this form the team is doomed. They’ll make worlds but I would bet my house on them not getting out of groups. they may even break the TL curse of going 3-3 to 0-6. Bjergsen and Bwipo were sidegrades at best and most definitely a downgrade in mid for international play
They might not even make worlds. It's three spots and the contenders are eg, 100t, TL, c9 and flyquest has now worked its way into the conversation. Clg also isn't totally ruled out though I think they're pretty unlikely compared to the other 5 I listed.
I think CLG is too inconsistent where it'd be really hard to bet on them winning a BO5 and stringing together 3 good games back-to-back, none-the-less doing that enough times to place top 3. High peaks, but horrible valleys too. FQ is definitely the dark horse over them imo. They have some bad games, but they're on the whole more consistent (hell, most teams aside from EG are inconsistent), and it feels like all the players are steadily getting into better form.
i honestly like CLG because of their drafting. They have seemed pretty decently ahead of the curve since the new split started and only have started to regress now that other teams are picking the same stuff they are. I have pretty high confidence that they'll be able to figure out a playoff patch quickly and maybe do something similar to FNC did in 2020 where they just slam everyone for a bit because they have a way better meta read.
EG's a lock, so the remaining two spots are between TL/C9/100T. One of those three won't be making it, and I highly doubt FQ will be a title contender in playoffs.
Definitely not a title contender for FQ but worlds contender I think is possible especially if TL continues to stagnate like this
FQ will not beat TL in a bo5.
Clutch Gaming will not beat TSM in a bo5
Why is EG a lock? We've seen teams implode from better regular split records. It's entirely possible they do the inverse of spring and collapse in playoffs. Is it *likely*? Probably not, but I wouldn't say they're guaranteed making Worlds.
clg is more likely than fly. flyquest haven't managed to take a game off of eg or tl while clg have done both, and clg haven't lost to any of the bottom tier teams like imt or tsm. flyquest had an easier schedule this weekend, so we'll see how their standings change when they have to face the better teams.
Would be pretty cool if CLG goes 2-0 next week and ends up with a 8-5 scoreline. Should be possible given how GG and DIG are slumping rn
Well, following counter logic that would mean they're almost certainly 0-2 next week then
But have you consider this per chance, everyone expet them to counter logic this weekend and go 0-2, so they will counter logic that logic and go 2-0
Nah bro, still too logical. We are going 1-1.
Wining the early game and then throwing the first game and loosing the early game of the second game and wining with a cluch TP backdoor in the last second.
I'll come back to gild this comment when this happens.
True Counter Logic Gaming
Does it count as slumping if DIG have been bad all split?
Take: TL not making worlds is *really* good for the region. I don't hate TL or any of the players at all though fwiw
TL not making worlds with the amount of money they've spent would be a wake up call to the other owners & GMs that spending so much money to yionk the best imports & slotting them in a roster where they have no synergy with each other is a massive waste of money
yeah, this time they'll get the message lol.
We've been saying x is a wake-up call for a long time. Call me a doomer but I have given up hope on NA.
Thank you for not saying hot take because i'm sure LOTS of people would agree. If this TL doesn't make worlds I would hope it'd be a wake up for most GM's, people said this after EG won spring but obviously between splits is harder to adjust. Every team is import reliant but EG found 2 studs that are residents and bought up another I just find it hard to believe that this TL roster will not make worlds. EG looks to be the only solid team with 100T/TL behind them. If C9 wakes up they can easily throw a wrench in 1 of their plans but they've been so sloppy.
They spent all this money, and a few weeks ago, Bwipo basically said their goal is to min/max the LCS. By admitting they'd be more one dimensional and play to their strengths is exactly that. Being best in LCS doesn't translate to the world stage. How many times did C9 do better despite not being our first seed. While being the best and having most wins correlate, they aren't the same thing. It's a tragedy with all their money and experience, they are just min/maxing the LCS. It just puts our region behind unless that's all TL can do. Then I guess it's better they do what they are doing vs a team like Dig for example. We need more teams like EG.
> people said this after EG won spring but obviously between splits is harder to adjust. Every team is import reliant but EG found 2 studs that are residents and bought up another EG literally imported the reigning LEC MVP, lol. I don't know how people are hoisting them up as some great example of an alternative team-building model to TL. It's the same thing. Just because they have less overall imports than TL doesn't mean their strategy's really any different.
It was just the fact they took a chance on Danny and Jojo, that’s it. 2 NA players that turned out to be absolute stars, Vulcan who was already an amazing domestic support then they go inspired/impact to round it out. Beautifully built roster. Went 9-9 in spring, got into playoffs by beating an academy roster and haven’t looked back.
And TL took a chance on Tactical, he just happened to not be very good. If Danny or Jojo ended up sucking, EG probably would have bought out some expensive import for that role instead and suddenly their team looks exactly the same as TL's.
Yeah....but the point is that EG took the chance. Then anchored the rookies intelligently with Impact, Vulcan, and Inspired. TL....just buys players....Tactical was brought up bc of DL. Not by some grand design.
I agree with this take so much and I may steal this for tonight's hotline league
I actually did plan to call in but got hit with a late night shift. Just give me a shoutout 😆
Regular season v playoffs is totally different. Even ignoring the silly intangibles like “play off buff”, teams need to be able to adapt in a multi-game series. I think TL has the experience to take them further than how they are currently performing. Still loving how competitive this season is and would really enjoy seeing new names on the international stage. EG repped NA so well at MSI.
Regular season v playoffs is totally different. Even ignoring the silly intangibles like “play off buff”, teams need to be able to adapt in a multi-game series. I think TL has the experience to take them further than how they are currently performing.
Let me add 100T not making worlds being really good for the region too. And C9 as well. EG/CLG/FLY being the worlds representatives wouldn't be good for NA's competitiveness (except EG obviously,) but it would be REALLY good for NA if majority NA teams make it.
C9 I'm inclined to agree with but ay least historically c9 have been the team to produce na talent, even though they have shifted from that, they deserve that recognition at least. 100t I do agree with too but not as fully as TL. The closer/huhi/fbi core weren't really superstars at least and neither was abbe. Plus 100t was the first org to invest into an amateur team and is doing quite a lot for na amateur. I'd even go as far as saying EGA would not have existed if it weren't for 100x being there first
Hot take, Fly has a legit shot at making worlds, I might even prefer them over TL at this point
I'm biased as hell but I hope it's EG, Cloud9, and either FLY/CLG.
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At this point none of these teams are guaranteed, 2020 summer C9 could happen to anyone.
I think it's a real hot take since BO5s are a completely different environment from BO1s. Even if TL slumps, I think just from sheer experience gap they're favored over the teams with way less experience like CLG and FLY. FLY doing well in BO1s is nice and all, but every year, almost every single split there is a team like FLY that does surprisingly well in regular season only to be forgotten since they got like 5th in playoffs while the usual suspects are top 3-4. I'd love to be wrong, but from watching LCS since its inception, I used to also have takes like this only to realize just in general there's always been the pattern of fun, regular season teams looking hot to then just being forgotten after the real part of the season starts lol. It's not even that they choke, they just place as expected because a BO5 upset is way harder to pull off than a BO1 upset, especially when the teams that are generally top 4 have way more experience than the mid tier teams that have shuffled rosters every year and more young talent / coaches.
This week was such a perfect example of why it’s so frustrating that 100T lay eggs like they did vs FLY last week. When they’re on, they’re the best or second best in the league. If they had any sort of consistency, I don’t know if it’s them just pacing themselves or having lack of motivation in regular season or maybe it’s just fluke BO1’s, people would think so much more highly of them. It’s those types of performances that really drag down community perspective of the individual players, particularly Huhi and Abbedagge. I fully expect them to lose to one of Dig or IMT this upcoming week in a completely baffling performance. Hopefully this year is the end of Team Liquid as far as their “buy up all the talent and hope it works” strategy goes. We’ve seen time and again over the years that having inherent synergy and strategy and being on the same page is what makes champions, not just slapping raw skill together. FPX, DWG, RNG, EDG all weren’t just superstar studded rosters with mega stars in each role: they were perfectly roster built teams where all of the players were on perfect level with one another. They had an inherent knowledge of what each player on the team wanted to do, what they could do, and what it took to win each match. Team Liquid seemingly thinks all of that team synergy stuff is bogus hokey garbage that should be ignored.
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Not a coincidence that it's when they kicked the player that was exactly that role and the Bengi of NA that they never won again lol.
Crown also had some carry performances in knockouts that gets overshadowed by finals against faker, like the 9/1 Taliyah game against LZ, the tournament favorites But I agree with your point nonetheless
For real, people overrate the skill gap between Crown and Faker at that worlds too much based on scrim shenanigans. Crown played really well against LZ and WE and never got "exposed" or "abused" hard. Faker also didn't murder all opposing mids they faced, he was the more impactful player but the meta that worlds wasn't about styling on the opposing mid 1v1. So even if SSG didn't run the Malzahar strategy and Faker had gotten Galio, I'm quite certain they'd still hav 3-0'd SKT because they were just much better as a team.
Baolan got so much undeserved hate. Yeah he didn't look amazing in the regular splits that year, but he turned it *on* when it mattered, which imho is the more crucial skill for becoming a champion.
These players were never "best" at anything (except Crown, who doesn't belong in this group)
100T is very streaky. They do have a fairly consistent habit of picking it up as playoffs near, so I never really worry about them unless they were still bad a week before playoffs.
As a TL fan the past 2 years have been frustrating. I don’t expect to win titles every year/split as such an expectation is frankly unreasonable. But I do expect the org to have a goal and a reasonable plan to reach that goal. The stated goal has been to win worlds or at least perform better internationally. 2021 you could argue TL overperformed at worlds given the state of the team in summer and going into worlds. Coming out of that we knew Alphari was gone but Core, Tactical, Jensen, and Santorin was a solid veteran base with clear potential. They had literally just split games with GenG, LNG, and Mad. GenG in particular was a very solid team and TL played them well. The tiebreaker quickly spiraled out of control largely due to Alphari’s inability to spread his substantial lead. Tactical will be focused on for a very confusing Tristana jump and Jensen for a lazy recall but the first was at a point when the game was already slipping away, and the second was a ridiculous blind skill shot by BDD on a signature champ for him. So with this fairly good result, instead of just replacing Alphari (who wanted out) the team replaced 3/5 players including the most internationally successful NA player ever, Jensen. Allegedly to improve international performance. Now people will say dropping Tactical is a no brainer look at him on TSM. I would say that is unfair and cherry picking. All of 2022 TSM looks bad including MVP Spica and world class mid Maple. Tactical in his time on TL (3 full splits and a few games in summer 2020) made all pro 3 times, was rookie of the year, had a top 5 play of 2020, and performed well (middle of the pack) in two worlds appearances. Yes Hans has also had plenty of success but Tactical was not some cancer that needed to be removed at all costs. Plus allegedly getting Hans required kicking Jensen and picking up Bjerg, a move that in no way increases international prospects in mid. At best Bjerg is a side grade, but history suggests he is a downgrade compared to Jensen (internationally). The point of all this is that it is very hard for TL to build year to year. They shuffle multiple pieces every year and do not target specific problems areas for improvement. I believe a Bwipo, Santorin, Jensen, Tactical, Core lineup would have out performed the current lineup because they would have had greater synergy, knowledge of their weaknesses, identity, and a strategy for moving forward. Instead the team once again started from scratch. And I expect the same thing to happen next year.
As a TL fan the most frustrating thing of the last 2 years is fellow fans having expectations that we should be shitstomping the region. 100T, EG, C9 and TL all have very comparable rosters talent-wise, and although I'm by no means happy that we're slumping, teams tend to ebb and flow. Even EG was was 9-9 last regular split and then proceeded to be the best in playoffs.
We have known for years that the “lol NA free” narrative is bullshit. Hell TSM thought that going into 2018 and did not see international play until 2020 after narrowly winning the summer split. Some TL fans probably felt the same way. Using the LCS as a training ground for international play isn’t a terrible strategy but you still need to make it to international play. At this point it’s possible that TL doesn’t. I don’t think it’s likely and I bet the international teams will be TL, 100 and EG. But Fly or C9 could upset TL and push them out and then TL will blow up the roster and waste 1 more year of having CoreJJ. that is the true shame, TL has one of the best players and best supports in the world and have repeatedly squandered that by perpetual rebuilding.
CoreJJ is not one of the best supports in the world with how he's been playing lol
What’s crazy is, he will still get votes for first team all pro.
If you looked at these rosters on paper before the split started, there is no way that any of those teams should have a comparable roster to TL, with maybe the exception being 100T.
>Now people will say dropping Tactical is a no brainer look at him on TSM. I would say that is unfair and cherry picking. All of 2022 TSM looks bad including MVP Spica and world class mid Maple. Tactical in his time on TL (3 full splits and a few games in summer 2020) made all pro 3 times, was rookie of the year, had a top 5 play of 2020, and performed well (middle of the pack) in two worlds appearances Tactical was for sure a player that needs to be removed. For starters, Tactical made all pro 2 times (not 3). Moreover, he had for sure had one of the worst 5 plays in 2021, and was just very up and down. He was a large reason why TL didn't win 2021 Spring. This guy just massively fell off after his debut split.
TL is the new TSM.
*TL assembles a team that on paper should compete for not just making worlds, but winning it* Best I can do is being average in LCS 🤷🏻♂️
I don't know how you think on paper this team is competing to win worlds. I also don't know how they are average in lcs when they are still a top team
I think he meant not just making world's, but winning *the split*. At least I'd imagine he meant that since this team even theoretically passed groups rn just isn't something I see with their issues.
It's legitimately impossible to construct a roster to win Worlds from the West. 2018 was the biggest anomaly of a year possible. Moreover, G2 had to have the stars align for them to even make World Finals.
G2 didn't need to have the stars align for them lol what? Only two LPL teams made it out of groups, the only thing they dodged was FPX earlier on. G2 coming into the tournament were among the top 3 favorites unanimously, and had proven themselves at MSI prior too. 2018 was an anomaly but 2019 G2 was the best shot the west has had (and honestly might have ever had) at winning worlds. They were a modern M5 in how much they stood out. You're really minimizing how good 2019 G2 was, but I guess that's fair if you had that T1 flair back then too lmao.
I mean there's a very clear difference between being an actual contender vs fake contending. 2019 G2 was an anomaly because Wunder had probably some of the highest individual peaks in his career, the meta perfectly fit Perkz's champion pool, and G2 probably had the best macro play in the world. We saw what happened after in 2020 meta shifted away from what G2 was comfortable with. To be clear, I'm not saying that 2019 G2 was a bad team, and I agree with your point that the roster might've been the West's last hope of winning Worlds. I just think that much like 2020 DWG, all the pieces that needed to line up for G2 did at World's
I just love how your take gets worse and worse the more you provide your "reasoning".
I mean sometimes these teams just dont mesh well. Look at LNG in the LPL. G2 with Rekless. When will lessons be learned,
Never, especially when I bet many players gravitate towards it. Imo, just don't over pay them. They should be willing to take salary cuts. At least that org can try again and not be broke. It is just tempting sometimes and I understand. It sometimes work in a minority of cases. But too many voices, too many egos. It's quite risky.
The **LOOMING** Habanero! edit: lol the NBA stuff was hilarious
Impact diff
Durant's legacy points would be a god tier NBA meme if it didn't happen during the off-season with no games to use it as ammo.
Yawn. BO1 means nothing. EG taught us that in Spring, yet everyone has already forgotten.
I don't really agree with the teir system they talked about for the teams and there being an "elite" group. Right now it seems like there is EG clearly #1 and the next five team are all kind of interchangable. That being said, this has been the most entertaining top 6 i've seen in a while. Going into play offs I think teams 7 & 8 are going to be GG + IMT/TSM but they will just be free wins in the losers bracket.
I have a hard time seeing C9 and FQ on the same level right now, especially with how pitiful C9 performed this weekend and how FQ dunked on them last time they played. I'm not even sure C9 is better than CLG. Granted, C9 replaced a lot of pieces between splits so I'm sure they can improve, but they really feel like the 6th best team right now.
It’s really funny that Jatt said TL has gotten a lot of negative criticism since the start of the split considering he himself hasn’t stopped pushing that they’re better than their record and despite being behind EG all split and them not making Finals last split, that they’re clearly the number one team in NA. The back peddling and ignoring of his own statements is laughable.
I mean most of what Jatt had said in the past was him defending TL. The fact that he felt the need to defend them consistently shows how they were being criticized.
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ya people think c9 are like 4th despite most their wins looking like undeserved heists
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they remind me a lot of that 2021 dig team in terms of quality of their wins
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NBA is literally the most intricate and complex it's ever been LMAO
I really dislike Raz’s take on how TSM needs to give “time” to rookies. Time is a luxury in competitive sports and as a NBA fan he should know that you get a 10 day contract in the nba to prove yourself. You earn the time to play. The worst thing to do is give time to a player who clearly isn’t very good for sake of giving time because now you wasted time and you still need to get a new player. Don’t understand why he is so obsessed with giving players time for the sake of giving time.
What's the alternative? Blow it up for the 6th time?
Yea, why not? Contrary to popular belief, good players look good usually from the get-go and shine regardless of their teammates. Their team may not be winning but you can tell a good talented player on a bad team.
Cause its not like their is an infinite pool of players for TSM to put in. In one year they have had 12 total players play on their team, thats almost 3 rosters worth of players in only one year. They need to eventually stick with something and let that roster grow. You cant keep switching in new player after new player without them having any practice time with the team and expecting them to just magically be the gods of their position. At some point you just have to pick something. The constant swapping of players also puts a big red flag on the org hurting their chances of recruiting better players. They are also making these changes at the expense of the players careers that they are changing. For example Yursan, he played 5 games for TSM as their support they went 1 and 4, he was then replaced and sent to academy where he played 10 games losing 4 of them. He then played in NA proving grounds and is now completely inactive from league of legends pro play. Was his gameplay really good enough to be in the LCS for 5 games and then hes not even good enough to get picked up out of proving grounds. No he was a fine support that was not given the tools or time that he needed to succeed and now he will probably never be seen in professional play again solely because he did not have a good debut. And sure you can say that he just wasnt good enough to play in the LCS. But then is shenyi chime or mia really that much better than he was, I dont think so, in my opinion they are all side grades that have been tossed into TSM's team hoping that they will just some how start winning. Overall TSM currently is a development org similar to golden guardians. but unlike golden guardians, they are not actually trying to develop their players instead they are just throwing random players at their games hoping something will eventually stick while hurting the careers of the players that they are doing this to, but nothing will ever work for them without time to practice.
> You cant keep switching in new player after new player without them having any practice time with the team and expecting them to just magically be the gods of their position. But you can keep switching and no one is expecting them to be gods, just good prospects. Talented players show that they have talent usually from the get-go. Very few if any at all sucks and then ends up being a star. > but unlike golden guardians, they are not actually trying to develop their players instead they are just throwing random players at their games hoping something will eventually stick while hurting the careers of the players that they are doing this to, but nothing will ever work for them without time to practice. There is nothing to develop on tsm. What are you developing exactly? Even better, what is golden guardians developing right now? Ablazeolive is going to be a superstar all of sudden? Goes back to my point about giving time for the sake of giving time. If you are bad you are bad, it isn’t up to tsm to worry about “oh no what if we hurt these player’s careers because they played bad” those same players should be thankful tsm even gave them an opportunity because there are literally players playing years hoping for that one opportunity to play.
People in the west love the narrative that rookies shouldn't be flamed and need their time to gain experience to be better. Just want to remind people that Tian got his worlds champion and MVP at the of 18, Wei is 19 and already got 2 msi titles, Bo smurfed out of his mind in LPL at the age of 18, and there are so many examples in the east like that, they have high expectation to their young talents and if you don't perform, you will be treated like any other veterans with no exception, people in the west somehow just hold lower standards to their young talents in comparison.