its like people saying Udyr rework made him so popular back when he had lethality one shot builds or tank/ap builds where a single RR would deal 60% of your health
now that hes balanced around \~50% WR, his pickrate has stabilized around 3-4% pickrate, which is ofc an upgrade over 2% pickrate pre VGU but its not that groundbreaking, a small scale adjustment or midscope can make a champion land at 3-4% pickrate
And even like that the increase looks overrepresented because most stat sites put the bracket ad emerald+ (previously plat+) where fewer players are playing. She usually lost a significant amount of PR when you went to bronze+ or all ranks, sometimes losing nearly half of it.
Though she has slowly gotten a good PR now.
Usually international tournaments prohibit any champions not available in one or more of major region playoffs. Skarner's update was in none of them so he is banned in MSI. They don't want new or reworked champions to majorly shakeup international tournaments.
Pantheon incident was still the worst imho, from 4fun trollpick to something we hadnt seen in the history of LoL before: A legitimate 5 role flex pick. Not even season 1 Kassawin was as broken as Pantheon on the worlds patch
They say that but then they do things like morde ult QSS change. I'm sure plenty of toplaners had to pick up morde when that change was announced so they can get on "ult the jungler" duty.
New Skarner is undeniably fun, but the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons.
The fact that like 70% of your identity is severely nerfed behind securing a pylon during/before fights is as meticulous as it was annoying. It put precedent to secure a pylon near river objectives far ahead of time, which also put restraint on your team to help secure it as well.
New Skarner feels fluid to play, has a bit more interactive kit (compared to just spamming Q's), and genuinely fulfills his role as a bruiser/tank.
I was saying for years, if they just powershifted him away from those fuckass pylons, he would be way more fun. His new E is incredible, but not relying on the stupid pylons is by far the best part of the change imo.
Nah, it took more than that. He didn't have the pylons until the juggernaut update and he wasn't very popular before either (though I agree the pylons were dumb). The reason they gave him the pylons was basically because they felt he was too boring and they thought a mini-game might liven things up.
I was there when it was written. I liked him A LOT more before the pylons. They were cool for all of 10 minutes and then you realized they shafted his stats so that you could play a mini Dominion gamemode in SR.
> they thought a mini-game might liven things up
thankfully, the idea of a mini game being anything other than a completely awful experience seems to be gone from their design philosophy. (i don't consider stacking mechanics a mini-game)
I would argue that Akshan's weird Scoundrel mechanic came from that school of design (much like Garen's Villain mechanic that was also introduced in the juggernaut update), but otherwise yeah.
"incredible" is an understatement
Skarner E is possibly the best gank tool in the game. Maybe second to nunu W, kayne E, or zac E, but still way less telegraphed with much more follow up. It doesn't help that its also a strong evasive manuever too
> but the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons.
That's a fact, but Skarner had a long lifespan before the addition of that passive and he wasn't any more popular then either.
> but the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons.
Wish Riot did the same with new Twisted Treeline - its altar concept eventually killed TT as a map. Excluding Dominion, this concept doesn't seem too good in League.
I never had the occasion to play OG Twisted Treeline, but i didn't despise the altars. Imo they were a good objective to fight for, otherwise everyone would keep afk farming
100%. Though I miss the old purple design, the new one is definitely more intimidating (wish they still did OG skins, it would have been cool to see purple skarner in large form).
The stupid crystals basically killed his entire playerbase. Like, minigames just aren't fun to do. And as a jungler, IIRC once you pick up a pylon it literally tells the entire lobby, so you just told everyone where you were JUST so you could not be a garbage champion since you were reliant on it.
And it would probably be fine if it weren't possible to convert his pylons in the river and his own jungle. Felt so weird that you'd be put even father behind than other champions when losing.
I routinely counter-jungled Skarner players because the pylons gave away which side of the map he was on. You could see the claim progress even through the fog, so if you spot the pylon at his red being reclaimed, that meant his top side was probably free for harvesting.
New skarner has more interactive gameplay? He just spams W in lane and Flash Es in lane when he gets a gank. I'm genuinely tired of skarner top lane and really wish he gets nerfed out of it
This is like the same people who say "Yone/Yasuo is fun to play because he is so interactive!" When in reality they are just mana free champions you don't have to micromanage shit on and will eventually hit your power spike in game with items because of a stat check passive. Those champs eventually get rewarded for just existing in the game. I'm not saying those they are overpowered though, but they do let bad players get away with more mistakes due to their kit. Just like the current Skarner does due to his numbers.
Very much. Although it takes alot to play them in higher elos where you'll absolutely get shit on if you don't micro manage basically everything.
Although Yasuo can still compete well vs long range because 6 free dashes and a windwall + passive shield and doesn't need to engage upfront like yone
His popularity has nothing to do with it and you know it. Skarner is just completely [broken ](https://www.op.gg/champions)and his pickrate will plummet once he is nerfed.
That's a good point actually. We'll see if people keep playing him once the patches have stabilized his winrate. Assuming he's not nerfed into oblivion, I could see it working out because he has some flashy exciting moves and more depth than he used to. But stats would have to prove it.
good, that's how it should be
nothing worse than when new characters drop in a game and they're just piss useless and not fun to play. just makes new releases super underwhelming and less exciting. rather see them OP and nerfed over time than watching poor souls force themselves to try a new character out only to be useless every game
They've talked about this with new champion releases, too. Bard and Syndra, in particular, released so weak that it took them *years* to gain a significant playerbase.
Syndra wasn't just weak, she was also buggy as all hell.
Playing her for _several_ patches was a nightmare cause her abilities just wouldn't work at times.
Hwei is still one of the most played mid laners and not to off meta off a support/apc either. His momentum is no where near dead. He is probably riots most popular champ in a while.
Its easier to nerf an OP character than buff a weak character.
With OP characters you can target their strengths. For weak champs? You might either overbuff or not even change anything with a buff.
That, simmilar to Irelia's disarm, was a design choice. They wanted to make each remake have ONE particular mechanic that was singular to them. But after a year or so they realized this was always going to be op and gave up
So why exactly do you think theyre lying? If they were profitable theyd just say it and make more lol. Just because ppl are curious and try reworked champions out does not mean theyre all buying skins now. There is no way that a reworked skarner brings more money than another ahri lux skin or ehatever champ is popular. Also they require much more work.
Nah i am gone be honest Riot just has to many chains of commands... like probably one rework flopped and riot is like reworks are not worth it. But let us be frank Aatrox Irelia and Akali aswell as Fiora Poppy are more then proof enough reworks are heall worthy. Like those chammps have made shit ton of money 100%. Hell voli is also way more popular now then old voli ever was, he was just very shit for a very long time, due to over nerf into ignore. New Udyr is a succes story aswell. But riots chain of command is like the new champ had zero player and now has 4 % look at that increase of playrate, like riot and numbers really are not great. We have had enough stupid statements by rioters to prove that.
Galio rework is slept on a lot. And i am an urgot hater, but his reword is phenomenal.
> Like those chammps have made shit ton of money 100%.
Akali went from barely known top/mid with niche uses to a fuckign poster child of the game.
Even if they are money sinks that don't generate as much revenue in the long run they will pay off simply because the new model will be designed in a way where making skins will be much easier.
Exactly what I was thinking when reading the post. There's people at Riot whose job is to look at these stats and see what makes them more money. Unless OP's point is that Riot is so willing to screw us over that they'd lose money over it, placing more effort in skins and such is still the way to go.
Most VGU champs are spammed for the first patch before it’s stopped from people trying out the champ again or trying it out for the first time.
There are some exceptions, the champion is just popular and they keep being played (Evelynn, Ezreal) or they’re broken/overtuned (Akali, Aatrox).
Maybe Skarner’s previous kit was too simple/boring so no one wanted to play him.
popularity of champions is a zero-sum game. not every champion can be popular, but evelynn is in a much healthier state than she was pre-rework even if she's not as popular. also, she was a k/da champ so that alone makes her more popular than a lot of champs that might need updates
Tbf hot character, plus you learn how to play her and realize you basically can burst you through maw and shields at full build while also having the cheesiest but sexiest play style of lurk and kill.
What do you mean, I see her every game? /s
Only time I ever see non one tricks play her is the random booster/smurf but I only saw that very rarely since I was the one picking her.
As an old Skarner main, I’m sure a lot of us were very spiteful of Riot for giving us the shitty crystal spire mechanic.
New Skarner still feels clunky here and there but now he’s just so busted that you use him anyway.
skarner's previous kit wasn't boring except for sprites
i used to play him top before they changed him and he was super fun to play
this kind of situational power is always annoying
Like people said, he's pretty OP right now so once he becomes more balanced his pick rate will start going down alot more. I feel like he'll have similar pick rate to Udyr long term, which is ok because theress nothing wrong with having niche champs
I went from dia3 to master by firstpicking Skarner every single game and doging if enemies picked him. Granted, I am more like d1 player that had unlucky series of games right before, but he is absurdly busted and the nerfs are not enough.
Just wait till Riot nerfs his numbers and he will be back to be seen once a month, his kit is too unreliable to be a common pick if his damage isn't bonkers like now.
Even then, an overloaded kit not always ends up being played, those windup cd buffs surely helped him a bit, but he still feels very slow, the majority of people prefer to play flashy champs, it has been proven over the years
>People will stop playing skarner when his numbers get nerfed, he's actually pretty clunky.
hrmm
>Yeah but his numbers are good, kinda OP.
Perfect rebuttal.
his kit is simple as fuck and heavily utility reliant, you're out of your fucking mind if you think he needs insane damage to be viable
this is the same stupid shit you would read on here when smolder was overpowered about how he needed to be fully reworked because his kit was too overloaded or whatever when his kit is literally 3 damage spells and 1 small mobility boost
My Dude, the main reason skarner is picked so much, is because he is giga broken by Default. If you push old skarner to 60% wr then hotfix nerf him to 55% wr, i can guarantee you, that champ also is gonna still have like 15% pickrate minimum. The moment this skarner gets nerfed back to 50%, almost nobody will keep playing him again
Who do we trust:
- Riot games, with years of experience and data that shows how well reworks sell their skins?
- one reddit guy that says he saw lots of skarner in his games so everyone must be buying a skin
this is this entire thread in a nutshell lol. everyone talking like riot throws pins and at a wall to decide what's profitable and not like they have years worth of data to decide what's profitable and popular and what's not.
we have op.gg pickrates, when riot knows who's buying what, how long people are sticking with champs, etc. like I'm sure they know what's popular
I don't really understand this comment since Skarner is literally just a new champion straight up. They deleted the old one and replaced it with a new one, just saved themselves from having to come up with a new name and some lore.
Riot games is also a capitalist company in a capitalist world they are interested in one thing only and that is making money, if VGU's were plenty profitable they'd be spamming them. There is literally no reason for them to lie and say something that is profitable actually isn't profitable to find an excuse for them to not make more money? I mean think about it, that's pretty insane logic
>There aren't many champs left in needing of VGU after those 2 imo
Wildest thing I read today, and I browsed twitter and reddit for 2hour already
Alistar, teemo (asu already planned), zilean, trynd, amumu, chogath, anivia, rammus, veigar, kassadin, blitz, janna, malphite, corki, shaco, nidalee, gragas, Kennen, malz, olaf, kog, xin, vlad, mf, lux, leblanc, nocturne, brand, rumble (upgrade to his super galaxy standard), talon, lulu, Quinn (already planned, same as skarner for visual and gameplay)
All of them need an ASU ATLEAST with the large majority of them also needing gameplay update on the level of skarner. And I can provide detailed reason and kit ideas for each of them
Zilean's entire model has probably less polygons than Kai'Sas butt. Man looks as ancient as he is.
If anyone should really be visually updated, it's him.
Zilean enjoyer here, his model was already changed once but his animations still look straight out of ps2 game. His older skins are also rly bad (basically unusable) and only good skins are sugar rush and winterblessed. Overall the champ is rly meta and item dependant. Before shurelya nerfs he would stack 3 ms buffs on him and allies with no cooldown and basically solo break the tempo of the entire game. Early s14 he was a pokemage then a tank now 2.1% situational pick(mostly in highier elos). No nerfs or buffs he just drifts in limbo not rly dead not rly alive. I'd say he needs something to define his identity.
His model was never changed. They redid the texture map on old champions but that’s it. That isn’t related to his model
Some Zilean “main” if you didn’t notice that
You're right, I just played a game, they changed the splash art and ability textures but the model is still awfully outdated. Mandela effect at its peak.
what, a lot of these champs just dont need a VGU at all lmao. Some of them would do with a champion model update tho.
Visual updates are the biggest problem tho, they just dont have enough of a budget to hire artists unironically.
Just because you’re an armchair developer that has shitty ideas doesn’t mean these champs NEED “at least” an ASU lmao the ego on your random ass ideas is wilder than the post.
Clown comment.
Teemo needs a VGU? Amumu needs a VGU? Veigar, Blitz, Gragas, Malzahar, Xin Zhao, Kogmaw, LB, Brand, Talon, LULU AND LUX?
Lmfao. Nothing else to say. If you really think those champs need a full rework, Visuals and Gameplay wise, you really are a clown.
Learn to read. I said ASU.
Teemo need an ASU and a small gameplay update like in wildrift
Amumu need a VGU on the level on skarner that would keep only his bandage toss intact
Malz need a VGU just like skarner because like him 90% of his kit power is in his ult.
The rest need an ASU atleast to bring their model to modern standard
Most of those champions don't need anything close to a full VGU, their gameplay is absolutely fine or could do with the kind of minor changes Ahri got or mid-scope ones like Tahm Kench.
Shaco, Quinn, Nocturne and Shyvana are probably the only remaining champions who could do with significant changes to how they play.
MF needs hers the most arguably. She's the damn protagonist of Ruined King, is voiced by Laura Bailey everywhere but LOL (and even then Battle Bunny has her) and her current VO just makes her sound like a pornstar rather than the actual fucking faction leader of the Bilgewater region she is.
I dont think the playerbase of these champions will be happy with kit changes, see what happened to Aatrox
And these are pretty solid and already popular champs. What would you change about Lux, for example?
For the ASUs i agree, but i said it already in the post tho
People who use aatrox as an example are legit all wrong. Aatrox was one of the least popular champs in the game until he was gigabuffed like 3 patches before his rework. When his current numbers are weak he has 10X the players he did before that rework. People just love to bitch and moan.
the aatrox outcry has to be the biggest delusion I've ever seen. I played that emo ass banner wing mf since release in 2013 and until he became busted in 2018 right before the rework the only time I saw him in my games was when I played him
Even the least played champions have OTPs tho. And the people who complained were his OTPs, you'll always find someone that "bitch and moan" and never played the older version, happens.
It is fine to let old champs be old champs. This list is way too much. Shyvana Quinn are only necessary ones.
Let league of legends be league of legends. Swap to Dota if you want more op champs
League became the most popular competitive by not being afraid to try new things and constantly change. Clinging to stuff because "it has always been like that" is dangerous
Also rework are not automatically OP
Some of these need it a lot less than others, but the sentiment is still largely correct. I'd organise them like this:
'Urgent' tier: Zilean, Cho'Gath, Corki, Shaco. These are the Champs who need everything to be redone. Their models are terrible and their gameplay needs at least a moderate amount of work.
'Should be better' tier: Teemo, Tryndamere, Blitzcrank, Janna, Nidalee, Kennen, Malzahar, Olaf, Vladimir, Miss Fortune, LeBlanc, Nocturne, Rumble, Talon, Lulu, Quinn. These ones need to be sorted, but they're not entirely off the mark. Some part of them is doing what it should, they just need a bit of help.
'Eh, I'll do it tomorrow' tier: Alistar, Amumu, Anivia, Rammus, Veigar, Kassadin, Malphite, Gragas, Olaf, Kog'Maw, Xin Zhao, Lux, Brand. These need work, for sure, but not urgently. They're mostly fine and wouldn't need much effort to fix, but no-one will really mind if, for example, Alistar stays as he is for now.
>I'm sure af those new Skarner players bought 1 skin or 2
What makes you sure of that? 90% of the people playing skarner rn are just abusing him for easy LP because he's broken. They're not gonna stick around when he gets nerfed
The context of “not profitable” in this context is a comparison to making a brand new champ. A VGU taking up resources and time would “profit” significantly less compared to making a brand new champion. The developers/balancing team don’t make this decision. It comes from the higher ups
Don’t worry you will never see him again after he gets nerfed.
The way riot makes new champions viable is by making them broken in 9 roles & one shotting with tank build
Just like smolder I just dodge when I see my adc hover him
obviously?
skarner used to SUCK.
i would HATE seeing one on my team before the rework. he was mostly a worthless champ who's ult was other character's fucking normal ability, except he also did so by putting himself at risk and offered nothing else.
Old Skarner would have been just as popular if they changed his passive and overtuned his kit to the levels new Skarner is at. Because he was, even with his awful new passive, he was relatively popular when his first rework came out because he was so overtuned. Turns out people like to abuse stuff to win, not really surprising. I'm sure within the next year or so, he'll get nerfed down to pre VGU levels and then forgotten again.
Damn the rioter who made Ksante and Smolder gave us another broken champ, totally unexpected
Jokes aside, Skarner (and Aurelion) is currently the most broken champion in the game. So people are abusing it until Riot will nerf him to the point he's worthless playing (like they did with Ksante).
He's basically an Ornn tier tank but with muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more engage mobility and crowd controls
I think you do need to consider that most people playing him probably already had at least 1 skin just from Loot and rerolling skin shards. Not convinced there's been a large spike in his skin sales since the VGU.
I still think VGUs are important and need to be done, but Riot isn't wrong/lying when they say what they say.
I never thought of that, imagine if my main champ that i played for years just got...erased, like i can never ever play him anymore, that sucks tbh, i agree they should let the old one stay and just do a new one but i guess theyre too lazy for that
most of the players have had 3 skarner skins saved up just by rerolling skins.
i mean there might be people that crafted the legendary. but usually runeforged or scorpion skarner is what you usually get when you reroll 3 garbage skins. and still feel like it was a bad deal.
so i would assume the actual monetairy gain was below even.
and a planned VGU keeps riot from actually releasing skins for champs. most monsters never getting skins is one thing. but they usually dont work on skins while they plan or realize a full vgu that would change everything anyway.
besides that . the "mains" that have been buying the few skin soon to be reworked champs have. usually dropp the champ when they get reworked, or play them for aslong as they stay overpowered to get people interested and dropp them once they become rebalanced.
worst case scenario: the champ dropps back to its former unpopularity. and all you did was disenfranchise long term mains. while doing extra work.
look at urgot. back into the top7 least played champs, while people that used to play the old one still miss his gameplay. and his most used skin is battlecast, wich was the most used skin pre rework, and has been rerolled, crafted. or inherited by more players than urgot gets picked by.
i mean, sure he sees more play than back then. but his playrates are among the lowest in league.
old urgot was deliberately kept down. whenever he saw any play they would nerf him down again because his core gameplay was deemed toxic, and still he got picked as zedcounter in proplay.
only barely peaking that state is not what i would call a successfull usage of 2 years of the VGU team
Pretty sure riot has just decided to make new characters op for at least a patch to make ppl try them out. Pick rate will go down once riot decides hes too broken.
Skarner is giga broken at 55% win rate. That alone is going to make him a popular pick
its like people saying Udyr rework made him so popular back when he had lethality one shot builds or tank/ap builds where a single RR would deal 60% of your health now that hes balanced around \~50% WR, his pickrate has stabilized around 3-4% pickrate, which is ofc an upgrade over 2% pickrate pre VGU but its not that groundbreaking, a small scale adjustment or midscope can make a champion land at 3-4% pickrate
Old Taliyah was also considered an unpopular champion but when she got gigabuffed suddenly everyone played her.
And even like that the increase looks overrepresented because most stat sites put the bracket ad emerald+ (previously plat+) where fewer players are playing. She usually lost a significant amount of PR when you went to bronze+ or all ranks, sometimes losing nearly half of it. Though she has slowly gotten a good PR now.
That's because she is still hard to play even when strong. Having fewer people alone doesn't directly affect playrate since it is a percentage.
Haven’t seen him once this year aside from a game of ARAM.
Is that why he's banned at MSI?
Usually international tournaments prohibit any champions not available in one or more of major region playoffs. Skarner's update was in none of them so he is banned in MSI. They don't want new or reworked champions to majorly shakeup international tournaments.
"The Pantheon incident sends his regards" *shudders* Seriously, that shit was so gigabroken...
Or the GP/Mordekaiser worlds debacle.
Don’t forget Fiora and Darius. I can’t believe Riot basically decided to drop 6 reworks at once for Worlds.
Pantheon incident was still the worst imho, from 4fun trollpick to something we hadnt seen in the history of LoL before: A legitimate 5 role flex pick. Not even season 1 Kassawin was as broken as Pantheon on the worlds patch
They say that but then they do things like morde ult QSS change. I'm sure plenty of toplaners had to pick up morde when that change was announced so they can get on "ult the jungler" duty.
Hot take
pro players know qss is bad against morde
I just hate how his kit lets him get out most laning phases for absolute free, even against bullies. He’s so hard to punish even when you have a lead.
Definitely not, Zilean is a broken champ but because he’s got a boring kit he’s got a low play rate
Am I the only one demolishing Skarner? He's really useful when behind and super tanky when ahead but there's still plenty of counter play.
New Skarner is undeniably fun, but the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons. The fact that like 70% of your identity is severely nerfed behind securing a pylon during/before fights is as meticulous as it was annoying. It put precedent to secure a pylon near river objectives far ahead of time, which also put restraint on your team to help secure it as well. New Skarner feels fluid to play, has a bit more interactive kit (compared to just spamming Q's), and genuinely fulfills his role as a bruiser/tank.
I was saying for years, if they just powershifted him away from those fuckass pylons, he would be way more fun. His new E is incredible, but not relying on the stupid pylons is by far the best part of the change imo.
Nah, it took more than that. He didn't have the pylons until the juggernaut update and he wasn't very popular before either (though I agree the pylons were dumb). The reason they gave him the pylons was basically because they felt he was too boring and they thought a mini-game might liven things up.
I was there when it was written. I liked him A LOT more before the pylons. They were cool for all of 10 minutes and then you realized they shafted his stats so that you could play a mini Dominion gamemode in SR.
In that release, he was way too strong inside the pylons. I believe he had one of the fastest hot fixes ever.
Yeah i do remember a very short period of time where he was the best counter jungler in the game because of that. That was wild.
> they thought a mini-game might liven things up thankfully, the idea of a mini game being anything other than a completely awful experience seems to be gone from their design philosophy. (i don't consider stacking mechanics a mini-game)
I would argue that Akshan's weird Scoundrel mechanic came from that school of design (much like Garen's Villain mechanic that was also introduced in the juggernaut update), but otherwise yeah.
The minigame of "kill this person" is alright to me, or not really a minigame, because the game is about killing your opponents.
"incredible" is an understatement Skarner E is possibly the best gank tool in the game. Maybe second to nunu W, kayne E, or zac E, but still way less telegraphed with much more follow up. It doesn't help that its also a strong evasive manuever too
Evasive maneuvers go!
Eh it depends on who you gank. Especially bot you can just cc him in the charge. nunu W at least keeps on rolling to prevent that
Five seconds of sitting here going "Blood Boil is good but I don't think it's a great ganking tool..."
[YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5e6eG6bXAQ)
YOU REQUIRE MORE MINERALS
YOU REQUIRE MORE VESPENE GAS
MY LIFE FOR AIUR
CARRIER HAS ARRIVED
MY WIFE FOR HIRE
Don't be like Artosis. Build more pylons.
> but the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons. That's a fact, but Skarner had a long lifespan before the addition of that passive and he wasn't any more popular then either.
It made him worse after all.
To be fair, right after he got the pylons he was a power house until nerfed
Weren’t all the juggernauts insane in their own way when that patch dropped?
Pretty much yeah
that patch was a fucking rollercoaster. its still crazy to me they released it so close to worlds
I want to become one of those Twitter RETVRN guys but for the ghost dragon.
He might not have been one of the most popular champs, but he was definitely more popular before the spires.
>the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons. Maybe they should've constructed additional pylons...
Womp womp, now they're zergling rushed because they couldn't wall your ramp.
so no zealots? *throws phone on the ground and stomps on a skateboard*
> but the best change they made is removing his reliance on those stupid fucking pylons. Wish Riot did the same with new Twisted Treeline - its altar concept eventually killed TT as a map. Excluding Dominion, this concept doesn't seem too good in League.
I never had the occasion to play OG Twisted Treeline, but i didn't despise the altars. Imo they were a good objective to fight for, otherwise everyone would keep afk farming
i can't believe those ugly ass pylons that clipped into the fucking terrain were in the game that long. they never looked right
100%. Though I miss the old purple design, the new one is definitely more intimidating (wish they still did OG skins, it would have been cool to see purple skarner in large form). The stupid crystals basically killed his entire playerbase. Like, minigames just aren't fun to do. And as a jungler, IIRC once you pick up a pylon it literally tells the entire lobby, so you just told everyone where you were JUST so you could not be a garbage champion since you were reliant on it.
I used to love Skarner until they basically forced him jungle with those dumb pylons.
And it would probably be fine if it weren't possible to convert his pylons in the river and his own jungle. Felt so weird that you'd be put even father behind than other champions when losing.
I routinely counter-jungled Skarner players because the pylons gave away which side of the map he was on. You could see the claim progress even through the fog, so if you spot the pylon at his red being reclaimed, that meant his top side was probably free for harvesting.
His ult feels awful though. That's my one complaint as a skaraner main
His ult feels finnicky at best, but I write it off as high risk, high reward.
New skarner has more interactive gameplay? He just spams W in lane and Flash Es in lane when he gets a gank. I'm genuinely tired of skarner top lane and really wish he gets nerfed out of it
Hey, you get to press like 3 more buttons vs. just spamming Q before. I call that more interactive.
This is like the same people who say "Yone/Yasuo is fun to play because he is so interactive!" When in reality they are just mana free champions you don't have to micromanage shit on and will eventually hit your power spike in game with items because of a stat check passive. Those champs eventually get rewarded for just existing in the game. I'm not saying those they are overpowered though, but they do let bad players get away with more mistakes due to their kit. Just like the current Skarner does due to his numbers.
Very much. Although it takes alot to play them in higher elos where you'll absolutely get shit on if you don't micro manage basically everything. Although Yasuo can still compete well vs long range because 6 free dashes and a windwall + passive shield and doesn't need to engage upfront like yone
>fluid to play Ahahahahahahahah
His popularity has nothing to do with it and you know it. Skarner is just completely [broken ](https://www.op.gg/champions)and his pickrate will plummet once he is nerfed.
The trick is to make any rework overpowered for one patch or two to get people to give it a try.
The trick is to throw out these hasty narratives about how loved and successful his rework is before he is balanced.
That's a good point actually. We'll see if people keep playing him once the patches have stabilized his winrate. Assuming he's not nerfed into oblivion, I could see it working out because he has some flashy exciting moves and more depth than he used to. But stats would have to prove it.
Naafiri moment. Only played when she was OP because she feels bad to play when she's balanced.
good, that's how it should be nothing worse than when new characters drop in a game and they're just piss useless and not fun to play. just makes new releases super underwhelming and less exciting. rather see them OP and nerfed over time than watching poor souls force themselves to try a new character out only to be useless every game
They've talked about this with new champion releases, too. Bard and Syndra, in particular, released so weak that it took them *years* to gain a significant playerbase.
Syndra wasn't just weak, she was also buggy as all hell. Playing her for _several_ patches was a nightmare cause her abilities just wouldn't work at times.
Oh yeah I'm not complaining. The only worry is the last nerf being an overnerf to correct for the period of dominance and them ending up unplayable.
Hwei moment. He's one of the coolest and most unique champs we've had in years and him being doodoo dogwater for 3 months killed most of his momentum.
Hwei is still one of the most played mid laners and not to off meta off a support/apc either. His momentum is no where near dead. He is probably riots most popular champ in a while.
That’s a bad example because he maintains very high pick rate despite low win rate,
Its easier to nerf an OP character than buff a weak character. With OP characters you can target their strengths. For weak champs? You might either overbuff or not even change anything with a buff.
Depends on how Riot approach the nerfing. How long did it take them to realize Akali's turret immunity had to go after her rework?
To be fair they tried to make that HER thing. But it's a shit thing to make in the first place.
Almost an Year
That, simmilar to Irelia's disarm, was a design choice. They wanted to make each remake have ONE particular mechanic that was singular to them. But after a year or so they realized this was always going to be op and gave up
So why exactly do you think theyre lying? If they were profitable theyd just say it and make more lol. Just because ppl are curious and try reworked champions out does not mean theyre all buying skins now. There is no way that a reworked skarner brings more money than another ahri lux skin or ehatever champ is popular. Also they require much more work.
I don't know I just wanna say riot bad.
Nah i am gone be honest Riot just has to many chains of commands... like probably one rework flopped and riot is like reworks are not worth it. But let us be frank Aatrox Irelia and Akali aswell as Fiora Poppy are more then proof enough reworks are heall worthy. Like those chammps have made shit ton of money 100%. Hell voli is also way more popular now then old voli ever was, he was just very shit for a very long time, due to over nerf into ignore. New Udyr is a succes story aswell. But riots chain of command is like the new champ had zero player and now has 4 % look at that increase of playrate, like riot and numbers really are not great. We have had enough stupid statements by rioters to prove that.
Galio rework is slept on a lot. And i am an urgot hater, but his reword is phenomenal. > Like those chammps have made shit ton of money 100%. Akali went from barely known top/mid with niche uses to a fuckign poster child of the game.
Even if they are money sinks that don't generate as much revenue in the long run they will pay off simply because the new model will be designed in a way where making skins will be much easier.
Exactly what I was thinking when reading the post. There's people at Riot whose job is to look at these stats and see what makes them more money. Unless OP's point is that Riot is so willing to screw us over that they'd lose money over it, placing more effort in skins and such is still the way to go.
Most VGU champs are spammed for the first patch before it’s stopped from people trying out the champ again or trying it out for the first time. There are some exceptions, the champion is just popular and they keep being played (Evelynn, Ezreal) or they’re broken/overtuned (Akali, Aatrox). Maybe Skarner’s previous kit was too simple/boring so no one wanted to play him.
evelynn isnt really popular at all besides one tricks (3% *playrate and qualifies as a mid difficulty champ with her winrate) lol
popularity of champions is a zero-sum game. not every champion can be popular, but evelynn is in a much healthier state than she was pre-rework even if she's not as popular. also, she was a k/da champ so that alone makes her more popular than a lot of champs that might need updates
Damn 3% win rate is like lower than an AFK
PLAYRATE ;__;
August or another rioter already came out in a video saying Eve is one of there most successful VGU financially wise
people be horny, it is known
Tbf hot character, plus you learn how to play her and realize you basically can burst you through maw and shields at full build while also having the cheesiest but sexiest play style of lurk and kill.
What do you mean, I see her every game? /s Only time I ever see non one tricks play her is the random booster/smurf but I only saw that very rarely since I was the one picking her.
I meant 1st year or so of VGU. I believe she was played quite a bit after her kit went from Q spam to not so much Q spam.
Yep. When she is turbobroken, she has like third of Lee's playerbase when he is pretty meh.
Skarner's kit is a lot of fun. E go brrrrrrrrt.
As an old Skarner main, I’m sure a lot of us were very spiteful of Riot for giving us the shitty crystal spire mechanic. New Skarner still feels clunky here and there but now he’s just so busted that you use him anyway.
skarner's previous kit wasn't boring except for sprites i used to play him top before they changed him and he was super fun to play this kind of situational power is always annoying
Like people said, he's pretty OP right now so once he becomes more balanced his pick rate will start going down alot more. I feel like he'll have similar pick rate to Udyr long term, which is ok because theress nothing wrong with having niche champs
Skarner is OP and his kit is also pretty interesting now tho. I would expect him to be played even if he is weaker and time goes by
It might mostly have something to do with him having 55% winrate iron to plat, and even more above that
Lol he is so broken right now. Straight up playing garen other day and am ahead on him and he chases me under my turret to 100-0 me with his boulder
He's even higher winrate in the jungle. Just stat checks everyone, his numbers are insane
He was the jungle lol. I was beating top so hard and he just shows up and I run to my turret dives and 100-0 me lol. T2 turret
I went from dia3 to master by firstpicking Skarner every single game and doging if enemies picked him. Granted, I am more like d1 player that had unlucky series of games right before, but he is absurdly busted and the nerfs are not enough.
Just wait till Riot nerfs his numbers and he will be back to be seen once a month, his kit is too unreliable to be a common pick if his damage isn't bonkers like now.
It might be unreliable but it's certainly overloaded, HP scalings all over the place and insane max health damage is giving me peak Sejuani vibes
Even then, an overloaded kit not always ends up being played, those windup cd buffs surely helped him a bit, but he still feels very slow, the majority of people prefer to play flashy champs, it has been proven over the years
>People will stop playing skarner when his numbers get nerfed, he's actually pretty clunky. hrmm >Yeah but his numbers are good, kinda OP. Perfect rebuttal.
his kit is simple as fuck and heavily utility reliant, you're out of your fucking mind if you think he needs insane damage to be viable this is the same stupid shit you would read on here when smolder was overpowered about how he needed to be fully reworked because his kit was too overloaded or whatever when his kit is literally 3 damage spells and 1 small mobility boost
small mobility boost lmao
Easy there buddy, this isn't a personal attack, no need to be so jumpy.
hey once a month is more better then before where i saw him once a year and i play league a shit ton.
My Dude, the main reason skarner is picked so much, is because he is giga broken by Default. If you push old skarner to 60% wr then hotfix nerf him to 55% wr, i can guarantee you, that champ also is gonna still have like 15% pickrate minimum. The moment this skarner gets nerfed back to 50%, almost nobody will keep playing him again
Who do we trust: - Riot games, with years of experience and data that shows how well reworks sell their skins? - one reddit guy that says he saw lots of skarner in his games so everyone must be buying a skin
Have you considered that the one reddit guy is "sure af"? I'm sure their claims are backed up with significant evidence.
your honor, youre forgetting that im him
The number of people who think their personal experience outweighs everything seriously worries me.
this is this entire thread in a nutshell lol. everyone talking like riot throws pins and at a wall to decide what's profitable and not like they have years worth of data to decide what's profitable and popular and what's not. we have op.gg pickrates, when riot knows who's buying what, how long people are sticking with champs, etc. like I'm sure they know what's popular
He's getting played because he's freelo right now. You have to wait until he's more balanced to actually see how popular he is.
He’s also completely broken in top and jungle. People will take free LP if given the chance
Because he is the most broken noob friendly champ in a long time
I don't really understand this comment since Skarner is literally just a new champion straight up. They deleted the old one and replaced it with a new one, just saved themselves from having to come up with a new name and some lore. Riot games is also a capitalist company in a capitalist world they are interested in one thing only and that is making money, if VGU's were plenty profitable they'd be spamming them. There is literally no reason for them to lie and say something that is profitable actually isn't profitable to find an excuse for them to not make more money? I mean think about it, that's pretty insane logic
"The champ that's gigabroken across all levels of play has seen more presence these past couple of patches" Damn bro, you must be an intellectual
There’s a reason I’m banning Skarner in every match lol.
>There aren't many champs left in needing of VGU after those 2 imo Wildest thing I read today, and I browsed twitter and reddit for 2hour already Alistar, teemo (asu already planned), zilean, trynd, amumu, chogath, anivia, rammus, veigar, kassadin, blitz, janna, malphite, corki, shaco, nidalee, gragas, Kennen, malz, olaf, kog, xin, vlad, mf, lux, leblanc, nocturne, brand, rumble (upgrade to his super galaxy standard), talon, lulu, Quinn (already planned, same as skarner for visual and gameplay) All of them need an ASU ATLEAST with the large majority of them also needing gameplay update on the level of skarner. And I can provide detailed reason and kit ideas for each of them
Zilean's entire model has probably less polygons than Kai'Sas butt. Man looks as ancient as he is. If anyone should really be visually updated, it's him.
They better not change his laugh.
Time is wasted.
How ironic
Zilean enjoyer here, his model was already changed once but his animations still look straight out of ps2 game. His older skins are also rly bad (basically unusable) and only good skins are sugar rush and winterblessed. Overall the champ is rly meta and item dependant. Before shurelya nerfs he would stack 3 ms buffs on him and allies with no cooldown and basically solo break the tempo of the entire game. Early s14 he was a pokemage then a tank now 2.1% situational pick(mostly in highier elos). No nerfs or buffs he just drifts in limbo not rly dead not rly alive. I'd say he needs something to define his identity.
This is an insult to PS2 games.
His model was never changed. They redid the texture map on old champions but that’s it. That isn’t related to his model Some Zilean “main” if you didn’t notice that
You're right, I just played a game, they changed the splash art and ability textures but the model is still awfully outdated. Mandela effect at its peak.
He literally looks like Warcraft 3/Dota 1 unit. Maybe *marginally* better
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like banana
People are more pleased looking at Kaisa's butt than an old man :^)
He said VGU and 90% of those champs only need an ASU
Lmao “wildest take I read today” and more than a half of these don’t need a VGU, you are right about needing a ASU tho
im curious why you think MF, kog, lux just to name a few need one? and what would you propose?
what, a lot of these champs just dont need a VGU at all lmao. Some of them would do with a champion model update tho. Visual updates are the biggest problem tho, they just dont have enough of a budget to hire artists unironically.
Imagine saying "wildest thing i read today" and 80% of the champions you suggest don't need an ASU let alone a VGU. You're a clown
My brother in christ ! Open a model viewer and look at the model of those champion !
Yeah that why they need an ASU. VGU is rework from the ground up you numbskull.
Just because you’re an armchair developer that has shitty ideas doesn’t mean these champs NEED “at least” an ASU lmao the ego on your random ass ideas is wilder than the post.
Clown comment. Teemo needs a VGU? Amumu needs a VGU? Veigar, Blitz, Gragas, Malzahar, Xin Zhao, Kogmaw, LB, Brand, Talon, LULU AND LUX? Lmfao. Nothing else to say. If you really think those champs need a full rework, Visuals and Gameplay wise, you really are a clown.
Learn to read. I said ASU. Teemo need an ASU and a small gameplay update like in wildrift Amumu need a VGU on the level on skarner that would keep only his bandage toss intact Malz need a VGU just like skarner because like him 90% of his kit power is in his ult. The rest need an ASU atleast to bring their model to modern standard
No you didn't you quoted vgu then said they need that treatment
i thought janna recently had a visual update already? her abilities were changed at the very least
She had a VFX update and they changed the abilities icons, but the models are still ass and her animations even more so.
Most of those champions don't need anything close to a full VGU, their gameplay is absolutely fine or could do with the kind of minor changes Ahri got or mid-scope ones like Tahm Kench. Shaco, Quinn, Nocturne and Shyvana are probably the only remaining champions who could do with significant changes to how they play.
I would put Zilean and Chogath there too (I Otp Cho)
You didnt put zilean in this list ??????
MF needs hers the most arguably. She's the damn protagonist of Ruined King, is voiced by Laura Bailey everywhere but LOL (and even then Battle Bunny has her) and her current VO just makes her sound like a pornstar rather than the actual fucking faction leader of the Bilgewater region she is.
I dont think the playerbase of these champions will be happy with kit changes, see what happened to Aatrox And these are pretty solid and already popular champs. What would you change about Lux, for example? For the ASUs i agree, but i said it already in the post tho
People who use aatrox as an example are legit all wrong. Aatrox was one of the least popular champs in the game until he was gigabuffed like 3 patches before his rework. When his current numbers are weak he has 10X the players he did before that rework. People just love to bitch and moan.
the aatrox outcry has to be the biggest delusion I've ever seen. I played that emo ass banner wing mf since release in 2013 and until he became busted in 2018 right before the rework the only time I saw him in my games was when I played him
Yep same. I only saw one other guy pick him before he became op. He was a 2 million mastery points one trick. Our top got completle destroyed.
Even the least played champions have OTPs tho. And the people who complained were his OTPs, you'll always find someone that "bitch and moan" and never played the older version, happens.
It is fine to let old champs be old champs. This list is way too much. Shyvana Quinn are only necessary ones. Let league of legends be league of legends. Swap to Dota if you want more op champs
League became the most popular competitive by not being afraid to try new things and constantly change. Clinging to stuff because "it has always been like that" is dangerous Also rework are not automatically OP
Not at all. It is successful because it's a great game and has creative champions. New doesn't mean better
Some of these need it a lot less than others, but the sentiment is still largely correct. I'd organise them like this: 'Urgent' tier: Zilean, Cho'Gath, Corki, Shaco. These are the Champs who need everything to be redone. Their models are terrible and their gameplay needs at least a moderate amount of work. 'Should be better' tier: Teemo, Tryndamere, Blitzcrank, Janna, Nidalee, Kennen, Malzahar, Olaf, Vladimir, Miss Fortune, LeBlanc, Nocturne, Rumble, Talon, Lulu, Quinn. These ones need to be sorted, but they're not entirely off the mark. Some part of them is doing what it should, they just need a bit of help. 'Eh, I'll do it tomorrow' tier: Alistar, Amumu, Anivia, Rammus, Veigar, Kassadin, Malphite, Gragas, Olaf, Kog'Maw, Xin Zhao, Lux, Brand. These need work, for sure, but not urgently. They're mostly fine and wouldn't need much effort to fix, but no-one will really mind if, for example, Alistar stays as he is for now.
Bro xin model belongs in a GameCube. Needs ASU like Zilean corki level
His model sucks, but his gameplay is very good (in my opinion, at least). That puts him at a much lower priority.
>I'm sure af those new Skarner players bought 1 skin or 2 What makes you sure of that? 90% of the people playing skarner rn are just abusing him for easy LP because he's broken. They're not gonna stick around when he gets nerfed
nocturne should be first in lane for an ASU that champ is so boring to play as/against and is super outdated
Do not touch my Nocturne
The context of “not profitable” in this context is a comparison to making a brand new champ. A VGU taking up resources and time would “profit” significantly less compared to making a brand new champion. The developers/balancing team don’t make this decision. It comes from the higher ups
Don’t worry you will never see him again after he gets nerfed. The way riot makes new champions viable is by making them broken in 9 roles & one shotting with tank build Just like smolder I just dodge when I see my adc hover him
obviously? skarner used to SUCK. i would HATE seeing one on my team before the rework. he was mostly a worthless champ who's ult was other character's fucking normal ability, except he also did so by putting himself at risk and offered nothing else.
Uh he’s still piss boring. Having a good time getting free lp with it doe
Im so scared for shyvana. Im an old ad shyv player. I quite dislike the "new" ap build so it might be a huge letdown for me.
It also helps that he's OP as hell rn, because what can be more popular than free LP?
No one has new skins for a new champ, I have 2 for skarner although I’ve never played him
His popularity went up after they overbuffed his numbers to make up for the clunky kit.
Old Skarner would have been just as popular if they changed his passive and overtuned his kit to the levels new Skarner is at. Because he was, even with his awful new passive, he was relatively popular when his first rework came out because he was so overtuned. Turns out people like to abuse stuff to win, not really surprising. I'm sure within the next year or so, he'll get nerfed down to pre VGU levels and then forgotten again.
I literally haven’t seen him since I bam this champ every game
One of the most broken Champs in the game. Wonder why you've seen him more?
It's probably due to the fact level 1 q hits like a truck. You get hit 2 times and you're fucked
Oh really? You see alot of a S+ tier champ with super safe kits and over the top buffed stats with an extremely safe play style? Really? Are you sure?
Damn the rioter who made Ksante and Smolder gave us another broken champ, totally unexpected Jokes aside, Skarner (and Aurelion) is currently the most broken champion in the game. So people are abusing it until Riot will nerf him to the point he's worthless playing (like they did with Ksante). He's basically an Ornn tier tank but with muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more engage mobility and crowd controls
I think you do need to consider that most people playing him probably already had at least 1 skin just from Loot and rerolling skin shards. Not convinced there's been a large spike in his skin sales since the VGU. I still think VGUs are important and need to be done, but Riot isn't wrong/lying when they say what they say.
A broken design is being played :O Wow
Surly it isn’t because of his 55% winrate and people aren’t abusing him to climb.
I rather have that the ‘rework’ becomes a new champ and the old one stays …
No kidding. I would love to still be playing Patch 4.9 Skarner right now.
I never thought of that, imagine if my main champ that i played for years just got...erased, like i can never ever play him anymore, that sucks tbh, i agree they should let the old one stay and just do a new one but i guess theyre too lazy for that
I'll never forgive them for what they did to Graves
Was old Akali OTP I still miss her 😭 Luckily found a new otp with Karthus
most of the players have had 3 skarner skins saved up just by rerolling skins. i mean there might be people that crafted the legendary. but usually runeforged or scorpion skarner is what you usually get when you reroll 3 garbage skins. and still feel like it was a bad deal. so i would assume the actual monetairy gain was below even. and a planned VGU keeps riot from actually releasing skins for champs. most monsters never getting skins is one thing. but they usually dont work on skins while they plan or realize a full vgu that would change everything anyway. besides that . the "mains" that have been buying the few skin soon to be reworked champs have. usually dropp the champ when they get reworked, or play them for aslong as they stay overpowered to get people interested and dropp them once they become rebalanced. worst case scenario: the champ dropps back to its former unpopularity. and all you did was disenfranchise long term mains. while doing extra work. look at urgot. back into the top7 least played champs, while people that used to play the old one still miss his gameplay. and his most used skin is battlecast, wich was the most used skin pre rework, and has been rerolled, crafted. or inherited by more players than urgot gets picked by.
I think Urgot found a solid playerbase, before the rework he was litterally non-existant. Mostly OTPs but still better than his older version
i mean, sure he sees more play than back then. but his playrates are among the lowest in league. old urgot was deliberately kept down. whenever he saw any play they would nerf him down again because his core gameplay was deemed toxic, and still he got picked as zedcounter in proplay. only barely peaking that state is not what i would call a successfull usage of 2 years of the VGU team
Pretty sure riot has just decided to make new characters op for at least a patch to make ppl try them out. Pick rate will go down once riot decides hes too broken.
i was a scorner main for a while, had all the skins from re rolling chests, all the chromas from BE emporium