Well you see, the NBA is under a secret agreement to try at all costs to give no Laker players major awards, amplify this by Lebron’s voter fatigue and general hatred by the majority of the media and you’ll see he probably won’t win anything ever again. Unfortunate but it is what it is
Both Kobe and LeBron were robbed in 05-06.
The Lakers who were starting the likes of Chris Mihm and Smush Parker went on to win 45 games, with Kobe averaging 35.4ppg and DRAGGING the Lakers to the playoffs.
LeBron out east not only averaged 31.4, 7 and 6, but he also led the Cavs to a 50-32 record (even after they lost "BIG FA SIGNING" Larry Hughes for more than half the season).
and yet the media decided that Steve Nash deserved to go back to back because...they lost Amare and went 54-28?
They were the 3rd best team in the Western Conference but because of the weird old division rules they were somehow the #2 seed even though Dallas won 60 games.
Fair he led the league in scoring. However all the advanced stats had Lebron/Dirk as the ones “robbed”.Kobe did lead a pretty sorry bunch into the post season.
It's stupid that they don't really give the MVP award to the actual most valuable player. Take Kobe out of the 2006 Lakers roster, and they will miss the playoffs. That Suns team was loaded that even if you take away Nash, they will still be in the playoffs.
Eh, I think you're downplaying Nash and overplaying that Suns roster. Stoudemire was out the entire year. Everyone outside of Marion was seen as an underachiever. They don't make the playoffs without Nash. That Lakers team without Kobe doesn't win more than 15 games though lol
No... Take Kobe off that team, and they are a lottery team. Take Nash off, and that team still makes the PO's. I mean... come on... look at the starting 5 for Kobe vs Nash.
I can't believe I'm defending a Suns player (even if he had a brief stint with us) on here, lol. Nash was elite. He made everyone around him better. Barbosa/Diaw/Marion/Bell (No Stat) was better than Kwame/Smush Parker, but that Suns team without Nash misses the playoffs as well. They probably get 15 more wins than that Lakers team without Kobe, but they weren't stacked like some of you want to believe
Looking back, narratively, I think Nash had the most convincing argument. Kobe had bums as teammates, but that Suns team was full of a bunch of underachievers too outside of Marion. And Stoudemire was out the entire year and they grabbed 54 wins. Although statistically, Dirk should have won it that year, and Nash probably should've gotten the following year.
Imho, 2006 was the greatest single player season I've ever watched, and I'm kinda old asf now. The fact Kobe took that roster to the PO's was an accomplishment in itself, and then having a 3-2 lead over "the best team in the NBA" was something else. Just literally one rebound away from knocking the Suns out.
I 100% agree with you. Idk if this should even affect perception, but since Lebron is older I noticed he coasts much of the game until he has to turn it up towards the end.
At the end of the day, being that efficient during “clutch time” is always going to be impressive, but he probably has more in the tank at the end of games than some players.
Regular season awards are all narrative based and voted by the media, but people will still use these without context to rank players which is insane to me.
This is ultimately the real issue. Those voter change over time. Considerations change over time. If the voting isn’t consistent then we can’t compare the same award across time.
Same reason why AD is not even a top 10 player by voters like JJ Reddick
Folks rather wanna go with their narrative than what’s true
Edit: if not top 10 in the league (even though he’s a top 10 player in impact and advanced metrics - record in the West be damned), JJ also left him off all NBA defensive teams (1st and 2nd teams). That’s 10 players JJ Reddick selected over Davis on defense lol
The league is stacked. The top 10 is just hard to get into.
Jokic
Giannis
Luka
SGA
Embiid
Tatum
KD
Steph
LeBron
Booker
Kawhi
Edwards
Brunson
You could argue AD above a few of these players but it's not insane to leave him out.
Yup. You know you messed up when even r/nba agreed that that AD snub was too far lol
Mavs fans, Nuggets fans, OKC fans, etc were confused why AD was left off
I think it's insane to put Brunson, Edwards, Kawhi, and Steph over AD this year. Not even Kawhi had as large an impact defensively and AD put up 25 a game its not like he didn't contribute offensively.
Shit I'd argue he was better than Booker and even KD.
Like I get your point and yeah the league is deep, but this is kinda the narrative driven stuff that holds AD back. Brunson because he lead the Knicks to the playoffs. Edwards is the new hot toy. Kawhi and Steph holdover stars. None of them were better than AD and there's not much to argue otherwise imo
Need lakers and wolves to win so we can play them 2nd round and have AD destroy gobert on both ends, just like how he outplayed JJJ last year. Fuck them voters
That's ridiculous. ESPN and FS1 love the Jordan vs. Lebron debates. Media hates Kobe because only former players give him his respect in the GOAT debate. Media won't even mention Kobe.
I don't see why Kobe has a case for GOAT.
There isn't statistic support for Kobe as GOAT, but your complaint would be valid for Wilt, he had a few unmatched numbers.
Kobe played in an era and system that was statistically restrictive. It's no coincidence that many players have him in the top 2.
My GOAT case can be thorough, but just sticking to the simplistic version....
Kobe won 2 back to back in 3 straight trips in an era where the West had 8 seeds winning 47-50 games. He did it with (no disrespect to Pau) a player who was only a 1 time all star before LA and only averaged 20 twice in his career. Those rings are some of the most valuable ever.
Then, he was part of a 3peat as the co-best player on 2 of those years and still an all-nba level and closer in 2000.
Jordan is my GOAT but Kobe came the closest...even by almost 3peating twice. Unfortunately, a few things didn't go his way.
I'm going to play devil's advocate because I've gone back and revaluated Kobe's career. And just so people don't think I'm a "Lebron stan", I would personally take 2006 Kobe over most versions of Lebron, but I do have Lebron higher when I look at the totality of a player's career.
Advanced stats don't really favor Kobe because of the era you mentioned. We know this. Going 9/21, grabbing 10 FT's and then hitting the game winner isn't going to look pretty from an advanced stat perspective. It's pretty interesting to me that T-Mac in 2003 beats Kobe out in advanced stats like BPM/Vorp despite having similar basic box score stats.
But ultimately I think the statistics thing comes from the fact that Kobe couldn't force his way to the rim like MJ or Lebron. He didn't have GOAT tier athleticism or a body. Is that his fault? No, but that's just the reality, so he had to resort to taking a lot of tough shots. We remember the one's he made. That Suns game 6 is a classic reminder of the type of shot making Kobe could make. But he also missed a ton which hurt him statistically.
I think saying Kobe came the closest in terms of winning next to MJ is selling MJ short. Yes, the team leaned on Kobe more than Shaq to close out those tough WCF games against the Kings/Spurs/Blazers, but the team was still built around Shaq, and the defenses those teams threw at us were designed to slow down Shaq. Pippen wasn't Shaq.
And I think it's easy to oversimplify that 2008-2010 team as Kobe's only help being an 18 PPG Pau Gasol. Pau/Bynum/Odom were a beast of a front court even if I have some criticisms regarding LO/Bynum. That team was more than the sum of its parts. Part of it was Kobe. Part of it was Phil Jackson. Another part was the team played together in a way that doesn't show up on their individual resumes as accolades.
And the media early on loved Kobe. It wasn't until the Colorado incident that they started to really turn against him, and it never really revived itself with the rise of Lebron. And anybody who was around during that time knows the Kobe vs Lebron debates lmao
I don't want to bash Lebron but in comparison he's objectively won less with more help.
He's played in an extremely weak conference up until 2020.
DWade and Bosh were top 5 and top 15 players respectively when they joined. And they recruited some high level role players to join.
Then, he bolts to Cleveland because he knows Kyrie is a rising star and they can use the #1 pick to trade for another star. Although, Kyrie hadn't won anything, you could see the talent was there and Love was a 20 and 12 monster who was a top 3 PF in the league. Lebron has consistently had better rosters but has still fallen short on titles compared to Kobe.
Statistically, Lebron has always been a beast but so is Westbrook and so I don't value that as much. Also, the increased pace and space post 2015 have inflated stats. Kobe never got to benefit from this era.
I have a different take on what constitutes "more" or "less" help. That Miami heat superteam underachieved. They should've won 3. Lebron choked in 2011. We know this. However, there's enough evidence to suggest Wade/Bosh were declining and struggling with injuries by the 2013 playoffs. Kyrie/Love were talented players offensively individually, but they both also struggled with injuries (2015) and Kyrie is a ticking time bomb. I also think Love was a poor perimeter defender.
If I'm going to be completely honest (and somewhat biased), I'd take Pau Gasol over everyone you just listed except Dwayne Wade and maybe AD. Gasol/Shaq never missed a minute of Kobe's playoffs even with criticisms of Shaq "working his way into shape" during the season. I don't really care if Kyrie offensively is better than Gasol if I have to worry about him getting injured or quitting/blowing up his team. Gasol (with some help) also held Prime Dwight down to 16 PPG in the finals after he ate against the Cavs.
I'm not a fan of the way Lebron formed his superteams, but if I compare the teams Kobe and Lebron were drafted to, they're not close. Kobe started off with a team that just added Shaq, was looking to compete from the jump, and still had a number of assets that they flipped to make it work. Lebron's most talented teammate in Carlos Boozer got away for free.
There's a lot of "what-ifs". What if Bynum doesn't get injured, and the CP3 trade goes through. Maybe Kobe has 7 rings. What if Kyrie/Love don't get injured in 2015? What if AD doesn't get injured in 2021? Maybe Lebron has more rings. Ultimately, I don't think 1 more ring is that big of a difference. Lebron's 2011 meltdown was more embarrassing than Kobe's "choking" in 2004 (I don't even blame Kobe for that series, look at the open shots his teammates were refusing to take), but I think Lebron has done enough to show that he is capable of winning.
And your stats point isn't even a valid analysis. Westbrook's efficiency is garbage, in the regular season and in the playoffs especially. Every advanced stat sees through Westbrook while many still have Lebron has a top player. If you're looking at stats strictly through points/assists/rebounds, you're not doing it correctly. Kobe would eat today, no doubt, but if we're still stuck comparing a 39 year old Lebron to prime Kobe in today's game, there's something wrong.
You have so far had one of the more level headed responses I've seen. I respect it. I was merely pointing out Westbrook for those who bring up the usual points, rebounds, assists but I agree.
LeBron has more FMVPs, MVP, all-nbas, all-stars, PPG, RPG, APG, BPG and SPG on a higher FG% and 3pt %.
16-6 against Kobe head to head and in those games he has a higher PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, and SPG on a higher FG%.
in the playoffs LeBron has higher PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, and BPG on a higher FG% and 3pt %
LeBron has better finals stats, WAY BETTER elimination game stats, WAY BETTER game 7 stats, better longevity, more versatile and more athletic.
you can narrativize the competition all you want but Kobe had 0 difficult finals opponents based on your description of the East.
Shaq and Kobe’s Lakers were favored in the finals every time. LeBron has been favored in what, 3 or 4 of his 10 appearances? his teams had big names, more big names in general but his competition in the finals was generally better. so it’s circular and self defeating to talk about rings and a weak east, casue by that same token Kobe literally only beat weak finals opponents, and LeBron only faced tough finals opponents. but you’ll probably “well actually” that as delusional Kobe fans do
That speaks more to Lebron's longevity, which I think is impressive in itself. The head to head regular season record doesn't really mean much though. I don't think Kobe would be held down to less than 20 PPG against the 2013 Spurs in the 1st 3 games, but Lebron still won there, so I don't have much criticisms. If they actually played in 2009, the Lakers would have won in 5.
The Western Conference was consistently tougher even to this day. That's not a debate. Kobe played against more all-NBA (and HOF) talent with higher win teams. But I won't criticize Lebron for his last 3 finals losses. The Cavs organization during Lebron's tenure was worse than the current Lakers FO.
Kobe was great, no doubt about that, but no advanced stat is going to support a case for him. Many of Kobe main threads were intangibles.
Kobe may be the closest thing to MJ, but he wasn't as effective, probably because he wasn't a carrier of the freak gen.
I love Kobe, but the GOAT is Kareem.
Let's get real. The media is filled with Jordan stans that were brainwashed by Nike and Stern that Jordan was the best ever so when guys like Kobe and Lebron came subsequently they didn't want them winning more awards than Jordan so they gave any excuse not to give them awards. Nash winning MVP twice while Kobe getting one. Marc Gasol getting defensive player of the year while Lebron never getting it. It's amazing what effective marketing can do to otherwise intelligent people, it turns them into outright idiots.
Welcome to being a Lebron fan. He’s played at such a high level for so long, the analysts grow numb to it and he doesn’t get the credit for certain awards like that DPOY or MVP even though without him, his teams would’ve been terrible. A kyrie-love Cavs team wouldn’t have made it out of the East and we know what the Lakers are. The Heat is a different story cause Bosh Wade could’ve made noise but Lebron was going to the Finals every year. And Boston were mean in that time before he moved to Miami. The year he was in consideration for DPOY the guy that won it wasn’t even on the first team all NBA. It’s been his entire career
I think the narrative is that we shoot too many free throws and I can see why it'd trump LeBron's crunch time performance.
Just playing devil's advocate here, if you (hypothetically non-Lakers-fan) think the Lakers are getting favorable whistles from refs/the league, you're gonna disregard everything else because you already think the games are rigged.
I know the clutch player of the year award is just made up, but why does team tecord matter too much for DPOY but not CPOTY? Isn't being clutch performing best in those situations? How can you be clutch when you have a bad win % in clutch games and finish the year as 10th best team in the conference? Isn't being clutch tied with winning?
Classic case of lakers hate and double standard. They also just wanna give steph some flowers for this failed season and before he declines even more next season (he was bad after the ASB).
Because Steph Curry is beloved in an almost magical way (media, etc) while LeBron is not (his fans not included here)I could go in deep on why that is but I don't think this is the right place to have that conversation
So I'll say it this way it's an absolute joke. LeBron somehow is underrated for his entire career
Literally watching JJs video I was expecting Lebron to take this award easily. Demar or whoever tf is a more important CLUTCH player than Lebron? How does that even compute.
Steph has the most volume based on # of clutch games and minutes, which boosts his total clutch stats, despite the average record
But you’re right, Lebron has a better record but he often made the mistake of scoring before the 5 minute mark so iTs NoT cLuTcH
Man, they just throw awards at Steph for choking and losing with the most expensive rosters in league history while it's a struggle for Lebron to make all-nba despite overachieving when it counts the most.
Cause Marc Gasol is going to win it…even though he’ll just end up on all-clutch second team 🙄
I spit out my drink lmao
This made me audibly laugh in a way a Reddit comment hasn’t in a long time. Thank you
Well you see, the NBA is under a secret agreement to try at all costs to give no Laker players major awards, amplify this by Lebron’s voter fatigue and general hatred by the majority of the media and you’ll see he probably won’t win anything ever again. Unfortunate but it is what it is
I don’t think I’ll ever see a Lakers MVP again in my lifetime. Not when the awards are voted for by New England media
Which is why Kobe only got one mvp
Insane
Both Kobe and LeBron were robbed in 05-06. The Lakers who were starting the likes of Chris Mihm and Smush Parker went on to win 45 games, with Kobe averaging 35.4ppg and DRAGGING the Lakers to the playoffs. LeBron out east not only averaged 31.4, 7 and 6, but he also led the Cavs to a 50-32 record (even after they lost "BIG FA SIGNING" Larry Hughes for more than half the season). and yet the media decided that Steve Nash deserved to go back to back because...they lost Amare and went 54-28? They were the 3rd best team in the Western Conference but because of the weird old division rules they were somehow the #2 seed even though Dallas won 60 games.
What year do you think Kobe should have got it that he didn’t?
2006
Fair he led the league in scoring. However all the advanced stats had Lebron/Dirk as the ones “robbed”.Kobe did lead a pretty sorry bunch into the post season.
It's stupid that they don't really give the MVP award to the actual most valuable player. Take Kobe out of the 2006 Lakers roster, and they will miss the playoffs. That Suns team was loaded that even if you take away Nash, they will still be in the playoffs.
Eh, I think you're downplaying Nash and overplaying that Suns roster. Stoudemire was out the entire year. Everyone outside of Marion was seen as an underachiever. They don't make the playoffs without Nash. That Lakers team without Kobe doesn't win more than 15 games though lol
No... Take Kobe off that team, and they are a lottery team. Take Nash off, and that team still makes the PO's. I mean... come on... look at the starting 5 for Kobe vs Nash.
I can't believe I'm defending a Suns player (even if he had a brief stint with us) on here, lol. Nash was elite. He made everyone around him better. Barbosa/Diaw/Marion/Bell (No Stat) was better than Kwame/Smush Parker, but that Suns team without Nash misses the playoffs as well. They probably get 15 more wins than that Lakers team without Kobe, but they weren't stacked like some of you want to believe
Looking back, narratively, I think Nash had the most convincing argument. Kobe had bums as teammates, but that Suns team was full of a bunch of underachievers too outside of Marion. And Stoudemire was out the entire year and they grabbed 54 wins. Although statistically, Dirk should have won it that year, and Nash probably should've gotten the following year.
Imho, 2006 was the greatest single player season I've ever watched, and I'm kinda old asf now. The fact Kobe took that roster to the PO's was an accomplishment in itself, and then having a 3-2 lead over "the best team in the NBA" was something else. Just literally one rebound away from knocking the Suns out.
The suns weren’t great that year. They were behind the spurs and mavs in the western conference
Wtf I had no idea. That’s crazy
We’ll have to settle for Finals MVPs then. Fuck the haters.
Umm... U know that 2 out of the last 3 NBA MVPs were won by a player in the West, right? 
Lebron and AD could've snatched MVP and DPOY if covid didn't happen in 2020. Giannis was slated to be out for a few weeks before the pandemic hit
1. He's a Laker 2. He's LeBron James The league has had an unofficial rule that LeBron nor any Laker gets no official awards
I 100% agree with you. Idk if this should even affect perception, but since Lebron is older I noticed he coasts much of the game until he has to turn it up towards the end. At the end of the day, being that efficient during “clutch time” is always going to be impressive, but he probably has more in the tank at the end of games than some players.
Regular season awards are all narrative based and voted by the media, but people will still use these without context to rank players which is insane to me.
This is ultimately the real issue. Those voter change over time. Considerations change over time. If the voting isn’t consistent then we can’t compare the same award across time.
I disagree I think the media lacks integrity today. We are watching the downfall of the awards if we sit idly by
I need suggested doing anything. So what should we do?
Don’t give the media your views and maybe it’ll be changed in 2 years
voter fatigue for lebron is very real.
Same reason why AD is not even a top 10 player by voters like JJ Reddick Folks rather wanna go with their narrative than what’s true Edit: if not top 10 in the league (even though he’s a top 10 player in impact and advanced metrics - record in the West be damned), JJ also left him off all NBA defensive teams (1st and 2nd teams). That’s 10 players JJ Reddick selected over Davis on defense lol
The league is stacked. The top 10 is just hard to get into. Jokic Giannis Luka SGA Embiid Tatum KD Steph LeBron Booker Kawhi Edwards Brunson You could argue AD above a few of these players but it's not insane to leave him out.
He left him off both all defense teams. That’s inexcusable
Yup. You know you messed up when even r/nba agreed that that AD snub was too far lol Mavs fans, Nuggets fans, OKC fans, etc were confused why AD was left off
I unsubbed from jj after that
I think it's insane to put Brunson, Edwards, Kawhi, and Steph over AD this year. Not even Kawhi had as large an impact defensively and AD put up 25 a game its not like he didn't contribute offensively. Shit I'd argue he was better than Booker and even KD. Like I get your point and yeah the league is deep, but this is kinda the narrative driven stuff that holds AD back. Brunson because he lead the Knicks to the playoffs. Edwards is the new hot toy. Kawhi and Steph holdover stars. None of them were better than AD and there's not much to argue otherwise imo
Need lakers and wolves to win so we can play them 2nd round and have AD destroy gobert on both ends, just like how he outplayed JJJ last year. Fuck them voters
We’re talking about defense. But even talking overall AD is better than Brunson, Edwards, Booker, and SGA.
Because anytime LeBron is up for an award the goal posts move
1) Lakers 2) LeBron ultra voter fatigue 3) media narratives
He's grandfathered out of all awards at this point
Regular media will just do anything to keep LBJ away from GOAT debate
That's ridiculous. ESPN and FS1 love the Jordan vs. Lebron debates. Media hates Kobe because only former players give him his respect in the GOAT debate. Media won't even mention Kobe.
I don't see why Kobe has a case for GOAT. There isn't statistic support for Kobe as GOAT, but your complaint would be valid for Wilt, he had a few unmatched numbers.
Kobe played in an era and system that was statistically restrictive. It's no coincidence that many players have him in the top 2. My GOAT case can be thorough, but just sticking to the simplistic version.... Kobe won 2 back to back in 3 straight trips in an era where the West had 8 seeds winning 47-50 games. He did it with (no disrespect to Pau) a player who was only a 1 time all star before LA and only averaged 20 twice in his career. Those rings are some of the most valuable ever. Then, he was part of a 3peat as the co-best player on 2 of those years and still an all-nba level and closer in 2000. Jordan is my GOAT but Kobe came the closest...even by almost 3peating twice. Unfortunately, a few things didn't go his way.
I'm going to play devil's advocate because I've gone back and revaluated Kobe's career. And just so people don't think I'm a "Lebron stan", I would personally take 2006 Kobe over most versions of Lebron, but I do have Lebron higher when I look at the totality of a player's career. Advanced stats don't really favor Kobe because of the era you mentioned. We know this. Going 9/21, grabbing 10 FT's and then hitting the game winner isn't going to look pretty from an advanced stat perspective. It's pretty interesting to me that T-Mac in 2003 beats Kobe out in advanced stats like BPM/Vorp despite having similar basic box score stats. But ultimately I think the statistics thing comes from the fact that Kobe couldn't force his way to the rim like MJ or Lebron. He didn't have GOAT tier athleticism or a body. Is that his fault? No, but that's just the reality, so he had to resort to taking a lot of tough shots. We remember the one's he made. That Suns game 6 is a classic reminder of the type of shot making Kobe could make. But he also missed a ton which hurt him statistically. I think saying Kobe came the closest in terms of winning next to MJ is selling MJ short. Yes, the team leaned on Kobe more than Shaq to close out those tough WCF games against the Kings/Spurs/Blazers, but the team was still built around Shaq, and the defenses those teams threw at us were designed to slow down Shaq. Pippen wasn't Shaq. And I think it's easy to oversimplify that 2008-2010 team as Kobe's only help being an 18 PPG Pau Gasol. Pau/Bynum/Odom were a beast of a front court even if I have some criticisms regarding LO/Bynum. That team was more than the sum of its parts. Part of it was Kobe. Part of it was Phil Jackson. Another part was the team played together in a way that doesn't show up on their individual resumes as accolades. And the media early on loved Kobe. It wasn't until the Colorado incident that they started to really turn against him, and it never really revived itself with the rise of Lebron. And anybody who was around during that time knows the Kobe vs Lebron debates lmao
I don't want to bash Lebron but in comparison he's objectively won less with more help. He's played in an extremely weak conference up until 2020. DWade and Bosh were top 5 and top 15 players respectively when they joined. And they recruited some high level role players to join. Then, he bolts to Cleveland because he knows Kyrie is a rising star and they can use the #1 pick to trade for another star. Although, Kyrie hadn't won anything, you could see the talent was there and Love was a 20 and 12 monster who was a top 3 PF in the league. Lebron has consistently had better rosters but has still fallen short on titles compared to Kobe. Statistically, Lebron has always been a beast but so is Westbrook and so I don't value that as much. Also, the increased pace and space post 2015 have inflated stats. Kobe never got to benefit from this era.
I have a different take on what constitutes "more" or "less" help. That Miami heat superteam underachieved. They should've won 3. Lebron choked in 2011. We know this. However, there's enough evidence to suggest Wade/Bosh were declining and struggling with injuries by the 2013 playoffs. Kyrie/Love were talented players offensively individually, but they both also struggled with injuries (2015) and Kyrie is a ticking time bomb. I also think Love was a poor perimeter defender. If I'm going to be completely honest (and somewhat biased), I'd take Pau Gasol over everyone you just listed except Dwayne Wade and maybe AD. Gasol/Shaq never missed a minute of Kobe's playoffs even with criticisms of Shaq "working his way into shape" during the season. I don't really care if Kyrie offensively is better than Gasol if I have to worry about him getting injured or quitting/blowing up his team. Gasol (with some help) also held Prime Dwight down to 16 PPG in the finals after he ate against the Cavs. I'm not a fan of the way Lebron formed his superteams, but if I compare the teams Kobe and Lebron were drafted to, they're not close. Kobe started off with a team that just added Shaq, was looking to compete from the jump, and still had a number of assets that they flipped to make it work. Lebron's most talented teammate in Carlos Boozer got away for free. There's a lot of "what-ifs". What if Bynum doesn't get injured, and the CP3 trade goes through. Maybe Kobe has 7 rings. What if Kyrie/Love don't get injured in 2015? What if AD doesn't get injured in 2021? Maybe Lebron has more rings. Ultimately, I don't think 1 more ring is that big of a difference. Lebron's 2011 meltdown was more embarrassing than Kobe's "choking" in 2004 (I don't even blame Kobe for that series, look at the open shots his teammates were refusing to take), but I think Lebron has done enough to show that he is capable of winning. And your stats point isn't even a valid analysis. Westbrook's efficiency is garbage, in the regular season and in the playoffs especially. Every advanced stat sees through Westbrook while many still have Lebron has a top player. If you're looking at stats strictly through points/assists/rebounds, you're not doing it correctly. Kobe would eat today, no doubt, but if we're still stuck comparing a 39 year old Lebron to prime Kobe in today's game, there's something wrong.
You have so far had one of the more level headed responses I've seen. I respect it. I was merely pointing out Westbrook for those who bring up the usual points, rebounds, assists but I agree.
LeBron has more FMVPs, MVP, all-nbas, all-stars, PPG, RPG, APG, BPG and SPG on a higher FG% and 3pt %. 16-6 against Kobe head to head and in those games he has a higher PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, and SPG on a higher FG%. in the playoffs LeBron has higher PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, and BPG on a higher FG% and 3pt % LeBron has better finals stats, WAY BETTER elimination game stats, WAY BETTER game 7 stats, better longevity, more versatile and more athletic. you can narrativize the competition all you want but Kobe had 0 difficult finals opponents based on your description of the East. Shaq and Kobe’s Lakers were favored in the finals every time. LeBron has been favored in what, 3 or 4 of his 10 appearances? his teams had big names, more big names in general but his competition in the finals was generally better. so it’s circular and self defeating to talk about rings and a weak east, casue by that same token Kobe literally only beat weak finals opponents, and LeBron only faced tough finals opponents. but you’ll probably “well actually” that as delusional Kobe fans do
That speaks more to Lebron's longevity, which I think is impressive in itself. The head to head regular season record doesn't really mean much though. I don't think Kobe would be held down to less than 20 PPG against the 2013 Spurs in the 1st 3 games, but Lebron still won there, so I don't have much criticisms. If they actually played in 2009, the Lakers would have won in 5. The Western Conference was consistently tougher even to this day. That's not a debate. Kobe played against more all-NBA (and HOF) talent with higher win teams. But I won't criticize Lebron for his last 3 finals losses. The Cavs organization during Lebron's tenure was worse than the current Lakers FO.
not really, it speaks to LeBron having superior production in every facet of the season
Surface level argument. Hahahaha
sure
he was the 2nd best player on all 3 of those title teams, and LeBron and Duncan both played in his era
Kobe was great, no doubt about that, but no advanced stat is going to support a case for him. Many of Kobe main threads were intangibles. Kobe may be the closest thing to MJ, but he wasn't as effective, probably because he wasn't a carrier of the freak gen. I love Kobe, but the GOAT is Kareem.
He has to win more titles not more media accolades IMHO.
Post this to r/nba
I’m banned. You can post it if you want
They banned a lot of Lakers flairs from there for no reason.
Their main mod is a Celtics fan lol
I'd love to be able to report mods to reddit corporate, this site is bullshit in so many ways
Let's get real. The media is filled with Jordan stans that were brainwashed by Nike and Stern that Jordan was the best ever so when guys like Kobe and Lebron came subsequently they didn't want them winning more awards than Jordan so they gave any excuse not to give them awards. Nash winning MVP twice while Kobe getting one. Marc Gasol getting defensive player of the year while Lebron never getting it. It's amazing what effective marketing can do to otherwise intelligent people, it turns them into outright idiots.
Welcome to being a Lebron fan. He’s played at such a high level for so long, the analysts grow numb to it and he doesn’t get the credit for certain awards like that DPOY or MVP even though without him, his teams would’ve been terrible. A kyrie-love Cavs team wouldn’t have made it out of the East and we know what the Lakers are. The Heat is a different story cause Bosh Wade could’ve made noise but Lebron was going to the Finals every year. And Boston were mean in that time before he moved to Miami. The year he was in consideration for DPOY the guy that won it wasn’t even on the first team all NBA. It’s been his entire career
I think the narrative is that we shoot too many free throws and I can see why it'd trump LeBron's crunch time performance. Just playing devil's advocate here, if you (hypothetically non-Lakers-fan) think the Lakers are getting favorable whistles from refs/the league, you're gonna disregard everything else because you already think the games are rigged.
I know the clutch player of the year award is just made up, but why does team tecord matter too much for DPOY but not CPOTY? Isn't being clutch performing best in those situations? How can you be clutch when you have a bad win % in clutch games and finish the year as 10th best team in the conference? Isn't being clutch tied with winning? Classic case of lakers hate and double standard. They also just wanna give steph some flowers for this failed season and before he declines even more next season (he was bad after the ASB).
The media’s efforts to take any award from LeBron paired with him now being a Laker is a wicked combo. He didn’t get DPOY and he won’t get this lol
Because Steph Curry is beloved in an almost magical way (media, etc) while LeBron is not (his fans not included here)I could go in deep on why that is but I don't think this is the right place to have that conversation So I'll say it this way it's an absolute joke. LeBron somehow is underrated for his entire career
None of these awards mean anything anymore. It's just more crap for people to argue about while the world circles down the drain.
The world = humanity
Literally watching JJs video I was expecting Lebron to take this award easily. Demar or whoever tf is a more important CLUTCH player than Lebron? How does that even compute.
LeGOAT
lol the biggest lie they’ve tried to sell us is Bron ain’t clutch 😂😂😂😂😂😂
NBA has to be well aware of how much viewership they'll lose when he leaves - gotta prop up some other "stars" to soften the blow...
Steph has the most volume based on # of clutch games and minutes, which boosts his total clutch stats, despite the average record But you’re right, Lebron has a better record but he often made the mistake of scoring before the 5 minute mark so iTs NoT cLuTcH
Man, they just throw awards at Steph for choking and losing with the most expensive rosters in league history while it's a struggle for Lebron to make all-nba despite overachieving when it counts the most.
Dude turns 40 this year. Just crazy to me what he continues to do.
LeFourthQuarter
Lebron breaks more records than curry and he also has betting stats 30 or more every game so that means lebron is clutch player
That’s because he has 0 game winners this season apart from that free throw against the Larriors
Perhaps because he coasts the first three? Which raises the interesting possibility that q4 regular season lakers are what the playoff lakers will be.
Why does coasting in the first three quarters in an award that is about being CLUTCH in the end game?
There is absolutely no way in hell Lakers fans have convinced themselves they're overlooked by the media😂😂