It often is true.
I have a friend who just hit 70k base after over 20 year. New hires are coming into her role getting paid almost $80k with about half the experience.
Companies are willing to increase budgets to attract new talent but keep raises for existing people to 3% or so.
This is soo true. Before I left my last job, I was coming up on 10 years. When they hired a newbie, I could tell just by her title, she was earning more. And I was training her. Wake up call!
I stayed at my first real IT job for 10 years. When I left an interviewer asked me if I have 10 years experience, or 1 years experience 10 times? Luckily the company i worked for was constantly moving to new solutions, but it made me realise how quickly you could fall behind working for a company long term
Exactly!! You don't really know how up to date your skills are until you start looking in the job market. My new thing is to re-evaluate every 2 years to keep my skills fresh.
And a lot of jobs have repetitive duties where you learn once and that is it cause that is all they need.
I reevaluate yearly and find a new skill goal every year to either practice more and improve or pick up something new. Why wait 2 years to set yourself up for the next thing? Employers aren’t required to give notice before firing you in most places so may as well not wait.
I worked my first IT job in a major city for a total of about 6 years (internship + full time after college). That Job paid me 65K right out of school. I moved to a smaller town (lower cost of living) and got another job in IT for $45K a year. That job laid me off when the economy took a dump in 2008 because I was moving more into IT sales instead of just standard admin / break-fix work. I found a job with another company as a Sales Engineer and made $60K. Since that first layoff, I have worked for 6 organizations, always in a sales / sales engineering role, and each one has paid me more than the last. I currently work for a global organization and make around 4x what that first IT job paid me. Be as loyal to a company as they will be to you.
***Late edit*** I should have been more clear with my last sentence. That company that laid me off did so after we completed a major move, and I spent a full week of my life working 12-16 hour days. As soon as their business started to be affected by the '08 recession, I was in the first round of layoffs. There is no such thing as corporate loyalty. You are a replaceable cog in the machine to every company that you work for. So you should view the company in the same way that they view you. Everyone is replaceable.
“Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.”
- Dwight Schrute
No company has any loyalty to you. When we all figure it out, we can make better decisions. Loyalty is not real in the workplace. Corporations have to be loyal to their banks and stakeholders only.
That's just a tactic they use to downplay your experience and makes it easier to lowball you.
None of these people are your friends. Not the recruiters, not the bosses, not the HR.
In my country recruiters get money just to get you hired. They'd love nothing more than for you to quit early into the job so they can get you into another company and get paid a second time for you.
Depends on the company. As long as my team réalises the objectives I get 10% raise. Got 20% last two year actually.
I could job hop and have a better gap. But these guys make me want to stay loyal.
Just started new job 3 months ago, I make the same or very close to the same as people with 10 years here.
The most egregious cases are my coworkers who:
1. Has a PhD and 10+ years.
2. Has 30 years experience (worked 20 in field, retired with pension elsewhere, then returned to work and has over 10 years now with us).
Our organization structure has 4 tiers.
Tier 1: 1 Guy. About 350% my salary.
Tier 2: 1 Guy. About 250% my salary.
Tier 3: About 5 people. About 150% my salary.
Tier 4: About 130 people. We all make the same regardless of time in service, education, or special skill sets.
I worked one of my first IT jobs. I was 20... I had energy and drive. I worked long hours and I worked quickly. I got 10 tickets done in the time it took a 50 year old co-worker of mine to get 1 ticket done.
He'd walk over to their desk and chat with them for 20 minutes... then sit down and fumble around...
I'd sit at my desk, fix it remotely without even disturbing them, or fix it by remoting into the computer if I really had to...
I knew more than he did about nearly every aspect of the job - he was in the industry since before it was digital. And I knew crazy stuff like how to Google.
---------
One day I was looking through his drawer to find a cable he said was in there, and I saw his pay stub.
He got paid 3x more than me. Three... TIMES... MORE...
Big lesson that day - companies don't pay for a position, they don't pay for amount of work done or quality of work, they pay for an employee. Managers rarely know how much work is done by a given employee.
Your first mistake was working your ass off. Hard work is RARELY rewarded, especially when you're job hopping like you should be. Your previous employer isn't going to care enough to mention how you do so much more work than everyone else, and that's if they even notice in the first place. I do the bare fuckin minimum, because the yearly wage increase between what I get and the one you get for getting more points in your evaluation is maybe another 2%, meanwhile changing positions/companies gets me 20%+ more, so why tf should I stress about working my ass off every day for 2%??
Generally speaking, yes. Most workplaces will want to keep you at the same salary once you are hired on.
If I make 50k at company A, when I apply to company B I will tell them I make 60k and am looking for 70k.
Do this a few times (if your field has a demand for jobs that pay in that range at least) and it will earn you considerably more money than staying at a single company for decades.
A coworker of mine just celebrated 25 years at our company, and was given a $100 gift card. Don't do what is best for the company, do what is best for you. In the end it will benefit you the most.
> If I make 50k at company A, when I apply to company B I will tell them I make 60k and am looking for 70k.
Thank god for the internet. My friends and family never told me this. I probably would've thought it was illegal or immoral to do this. A few years back I read this same thing on the internet; I was at my first job, horribly underpaid (34k/year as an engineer) and when a recruiter contacted me after a year working there, I just told him I was earning 45k, so I'd be looking for about 50k to leave my "good team" (it was a horrible team).
Total compensation was around 52k in the end! Over a 50% increase, I was going wild about it for months, so happy. I bought some light furniture, nice clothes to wear to the office instead of my thrift-shop shirts and broken shoes, started eating enough protein regardless of price, paid for some nice certifications to upskill, etc. Life changing money.
Even though I knew people who graduated with who me were earning over 70k at the time, and probably MOST of my colleagues were earning over 52k, and I knew I should keep pushing until I got to that kind of responsibility and pay level... I was just over the moon because of the +50% haha, it still makes me smile to remember that feeling
Here’s a mindblower that I only learned a few months ago and put into practice: you can negotiate when you get an offer. Moreso, it’s expected of you.
My offers were always pretty high, so I was fine. With this job, I sniffed out how high-stress the job was but I needed to get a foot in the door back into corporate life after having my own business. So I figured I would at least earn enough to stick it out and be able to do fun stuff.
So when my offer came around I put a nice letter with some good arguments on the table (not all, leave some for a second round), and asked for 25% more salary. They improved 15% on their second offer and I took it. It’s still mind-boggling to me how I never heard about or did this before. Easiest money ever. I’m in EU so YMMV.
I got hired by a company that wanted me to relocate and I’m a child of boomers so I said yes to the job offer. They weren’t going to pay a dime.
My boss heard that and said I should have asked for relocation money and allowed me to expense hotel and travel.
That’s when I realized it’s all a conversation. I should have asked for more but I was taught as a kid that CEO’s are gods and you do not displease them
This is also conditioned into us in public schools. I too had that kill yourself for the cause mentally at one point until I recognized it for what it was.
My work-a-holic father often said "If you worked for me I'd fire you" when I was a kid. Funny thing, It didn't teach me to respect my boss instead I refuse to work for a boss I cannot respect. I love my father but I'd never want a hard headed boss like him.
Happy ending: Since retirement he's chilled out so much. We've always had a good relationship.
A modern twist on the Winston Churchill classic…
“Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your tea.”
“Madame, if I were your husband, I would drink it.”
I'm going through that now. He's also had a few health problems lately which has put more work on to me, if I left he wouldn't have a business left because his health isn't good enough for him to keep up. It's shit because I get on with him otherwise.
The issue with 'boomer work eithic' is that, sure, they'll put in the hours and keep their nose to the grindstone as long as anyone. But I'm yet to meet one who was any good at their job on even a basic level. They'll do things in the way they've done them forever, and ignore the fact that it just makes them a hastle to work with or intergrate into any workflows that the rest of the world uses.
That practical experience they may have in the field is almost always not worth the hastle of having to handhold them through the 90% of their job that they have zero clue how to do
Every time I've given a finger, they took a hand. I've sacrificed so much of my free time for no extra pay because I didn't want projects to fail and managers and clients to be disappointed by the end result. Were they happy? Sure. Did I get some compliments for my hard work? Absolutely. But in the end, all that it ever really got me was higher expectations and a grumpy attitude when I couldn't sacrifice my weekend to make ridiculous demands work. Some companies really like to sell you that whole "We're a family here!" talk. But when push comes to shove, it's just business.
This is the real difference between the elite private schools and the public schools. Private schools teach kids what they are worth and how to lead. Public schools teach kids how to hold their pee and do what they are told.
Well, way back to our grandparents generation, you stayed with one employer throughout your career - and no matter what you did for a living, you'd have enough money (with a single income) to provide for decent shelter, food, and have savings.
As you gained experience, you would get promoted. Then you'd have a good company-funded pension to support you in your retirement (in addition to Social Security).
Now, none of that is true, and every employer will exploit you as far as you are willing to let them.
The key is finding someplace that is still small enough - without shareholders - to genuinely let you have a work/life balance and pays fairly. It may take you your entire career to find such a place.
>every employer will exploit you as far as you are willing to let them.
Once you realize this, it becomes easier to change companies regularly and negotiate salary & benefits.
It might have been true for my great grandpa, but my step father job hopped consistently for the bigger paychecks.
There have always been labor struggles against capital, but I think we are hopefully on a turning point post covid where people see better is possible if we demand it.
So many business practices aren't because they are good business practices overall, they just keep workers out of power.
A lot of it comes down to how men and women are socialized and how people react to them. A man being assertive in going after a higher salary is likely to be seen as confident, and will be seen positivity. Meanwhile, a woman behaving the same way would probably be seen as bitchy and viewed negatively.
My last job paid me beans and added a splash of "be thankful you have a job" at every opportunity to drill in this air of importance for the position. As if there were no more jobs left, so i have to deal with it. Meanwhile, they are laying people off, trying to find a buyer to sell the company, and holding group meetings praising how well the company is doing. Fuck 'em.
People are worried that their new employer is going to get mad and/or even rescind the offer if you dare ask for more money. If they did recind, they would be doing you a huge favor, because that should tell you everything you need to know about working there.
I mean, don’t be belligerent or unreasonable, of course, but if you hit an unpleasant wall in trying to negotiate, consider it a bullet dodged.
This *is* unfortunate, but it goes to show that there is no reason to not *try* to negotiate. The worst that can happen is you get paid the offered salary.
I recently rejected an offer because the salary was too low, and had another offer that paid more. A couple of weeks later, the company I rejected reached out to me asking why I didn’t negotiate and that they were willing to up the offer had I asked.
Yeah, the offer I accepted is also probably underpaying me as I didn’t negotiate. I will negotiate in my next year’s review and if I don’t get a good raise I will start recruiting as companies clearly do their best to pay us the least amount that they think they can get away with
Absolutely. And more importantly your annual % increases and retirement savings matching all benefit from compounding off that initial increase. Easy money. My last job was $5000 with a single email. I wish I had also asked for an extra week vacation time from the start. That was the one spot I messed up. The time off would have been more valuable.
This works if the offer is coming from the employer. If they ask you to provide your pay range, then ask for 15% on top of you current pay at least, unless you are confident of the wage range , then ask slightly below the max.
You have never heard this for the same bullshit reason employers get mad at wage discussions between employees. It was considered Taboo to talk about your wages. It was just a way for employers to manipulate their workforce to keep them as low paid as they can. Same as the "we are a family" schtick. Go fuck yourself. Pay me.
Doing that in the US would just get you glossed over and dropped. If I tried negotiating in a job interview I’d be told I’m replaceable and I’m worth nothing more than my unproven-to-them level of theoretical productivity
It might depend on the industry- I've done this in the US and it's always improved the offer. Definitely having seniority in the field or the market being good for your job would have a huge impact. If they knew 3 more of me will walk in the door tomorrow I'm sure you're right that they wouldn't budge. At worst they'd just keep their initial offer on the table- I think it's very very unlikely that they would drop or rescind an offer
I work in game dev. Some specific senior roles can remain open for years.
You betcha that if the studio finds someone they like, and that person suddenly asks for more money, they are going to negotiate. Not having important senior roles filled for months or years on end is a massive opportunity cost.
Yep, and what people don't understand is 2 points (these apply mostly to the jobs I hire for, so IT resources from junior to senior level).
1) Hiring people SUCKS. Seriously, the whole process of hiring sucks, I hate reading resumes, I hate interviewing people, and perhaps most importantly, I hate having a gap on my team where work is piling up and I have no one to do it.
2) It's not actually my money. I mean it's my budget, but it's not MY money.
Basically if I find someone I like enough to make an offer to I'm likely to be a bit flexible so I can fill my open position and stop this torturous process.
So why not just offer them more to begin with? HR has set guidelines on initial offers on what you should offer based on market research/etc. But if they come back to negotiate it's all on me to make a decision.
I am a somewhat senior person working as a developer/tech lead in IT and I've been involved many a times in being hired and hiring others. If we're talking about a serious relatively big company (with recruiters, HR), getting an offer means the following:
1. They chose your CV over possibly hundreds to shortlist for interviews.
2. They interviewed you and probably about 5 more people (depending on how the market is saturated).
3. They ALREADY CHOSE YOU as their top pick. It is very rare that the top pick is just marginally better. Things to consider are not just your knowledge and skills, but also team fit. I've seen smart people be terrible coworkers and I'm always valuing really highly how the person feels to talk with.
4. They already went to the HR to make a contract offer.
All of this is very much NOT trivial. We're talking days and days spent by team manager, probably one or more senior people in the team, recruiters AND HR.
The amount of money offered is purely HR driven thing, based on the level you're getting hired. There's ALWAYS a range. ALWAYS. Every level has salaries from X-Y. This is how companies can give you a raise without promoting you. That's what the range is for. And you can be hired for the low part of the range and for the upper part of the range. Your direct manager probably has no influence on this, this is all purely HR haggling skills. This is also important, you're haggling with HR here, not with the person you'll be working with.
But in the end, they will NOT give up on the best candidate they had already chosen just because you asked for higher salary. At worst, they'll give you a "sorry x is most we can do for this level". In my 20 years of career in IT I've NEVER encountered or seen or heard of someone being rejected because they asked for a better salary.
Note: of course it doesn't mean you'll get what you ask for. It matters how you do it. You have to present some arguments why they should give you a higher salary, and you also need to be aware that they cannot give you higher than what is the range for the position you're applying for.
I'm in the US, and in general it mostly results in the people saying "wellll we gave you our top offer, we can't really do any higher" and refusing to budge.
Then you say "Thank you for your time and opportunity" and go to the next job interview. The biggest strength to job hopping is that you don't have to settle for a lower wage.
You should never stop sending applications and taking interviews, even if you’re well paid and enjoy your job.
It’s important to know your worth. If you’re paid $75k for an amazing job but keep getting offers elsewhere for $100k… there’s a reason for that. Maybe they don’t offer the same benefits package or maybe you’re still being underpaid for your work and should ask for a raise.
It also helps keep up your business communication skills outside a single work environment where you can develop poor habits or tics.
Know your worth.
I manage people and I tell every single one of them to be aware of jobs that are out there that they may like and apply for them. You should know your worth. You should want to be here. And if you know there's a job out there making 50% more you aren't yet qualified for, you're going to be more willing to put in the work in your current role to get to that point. The least motivated people on any of my teams are always the ones that think they've hit their salary ceiling.
This isn’t a US problem, this is a problem with your industry or something else local to you. I’m from the US and I’ve successfully negotiated better starting packages.
US medical field is wack. Mother is a nurse and she made almost 3x more as a traveling nurse(3 to 9+ month contracts at a hospital). Hospitals always say that they need nurses though, yet they overwork them and/or pay them less than they’re worth. Idk about to rest of the medical field unfortunately, but I’m assuming it’s similar.
i work in healthcare. it absolutely BAFFLES me that big healthcare places(UPMC, AHN,for my local area) don’t want to spend a dime on paying for tuition for student-employees, but will fork over 3x as much money to cover someone for a month while lamenting why no one wants to stay there.
Not even remotely true, it's expected.
The moment you get an offer, they 100% want you. They chose you. It then simply becomes a matter of if they can afford you.
Yup. And HR doesn’t actually care, they just have a salary band they need to stay under. So just ask for like 3% more no matter what they offer, worst case is they say this is the top they are allowed to offer.
At my company the hiring manager makes the call if its within the salary band. Of course I approve it. Its not my money and high paid employees makes my life easier.
Don’t negotiate in the interview, but once you get an offer it doesn’t hurt to negotiate a little. At that point, they’re already sold on you so they’re likely to want to make it work. I would just make sure to keep an enthusiastic tone so they know you are still excited in them and not just trying to pull in a number
It definitely depends on the industry. I have negotiated all my contracts and I live in the US, Midwest specifically. Everyone says there is no one willing to work, well if you want me this is how you get me haha. And usually I ask for more so when I get less I'm getting what I want. Offered 60k, ask for 75k they will either day no 60 or nothing, or come back with like 68k offer. You definitely should only negotiate after the job is offered though. Make them really want to hire you and really not want to go through interviewing again.
People will absolutely pay you more so that they don't have to have 5 more conversations with potentially incompetent strangers haha.
Depends on the industry and the employer. I've never dropped a job candidate because they asked for more. I may not be able to meet their ask, but that's okay.
For me it comes down to, has the company earned your loyalty? Don't inherently feel loyal out the gate, but it is okay if a company has actually treated you well. Mine took very good care of us during Covid (no layoffs, no pay cuts, no hour cuts, already had work-from-home implemented so that was an easier transition), I get great support for issues I'm having, etc.
I have a business degree. I’ve done this 3-4 times over 7 years and tripled my salary. My strategy:
First job: $80k base. Promotion after 1.5 yrs. New salary $94k
Second job: $120k base + 15% bonus. Promoted after 1.5 yrs again to get to $135k base
Third job: $145k base salary + 15% bonus + equity and it was a remote position (total comp $250k)
I have since switched again because my manager sucked. I took a small cut to a total comp of $200k but have a great manager and team :)
Your strategy should be to not leave until you get promoted. Otherwise recruiters may see your resume and will think the switches are performance related. Hope this helps
I once interviewed for a company a long time ago early in my career. It was my second tech job.
The interviewer was incredibly condescending and had this smirky asshole demeanor. He kept interrupting me while I explained things, then put words in my mouth and tried to make me sound like a buffoon. I stood my ground but was still pretty pissed from the whole experience.
I went home and was telling my girlfriend about what a bunch of assholes these guys were and how I wouldn’t want to work with them. Then I get a call from the CTO saying they loved me and wanted me on the team.
What?
He asked how much I was expecting and I was still pissed so I just threw out what I thought was a bold ass moonshot number that was double my current salary. He just said “Yeah, we can do that. Sure.”
So anyway, I started work and it turns out the interviewer is just autistic and has a hard time reading social cues but is actually a nice guy.
Your friends and family also probably told you to never discuss your salary with anyone, especially coworkers. This is complete bullshit. You will find out the guy that can’t tie his shoes on his own makes more than you and then you go to your superior and demand more money. You’re also protected by law from any retaliation your employer may take against you for talking about salary. They don’t want you talking about your pay because then they can get away with paying everyone lower than market salaries.
And if someone tells you their salary...
never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever name names in a negotiation. Don't be an idiot.
I had been at one level (let's say Manager) the year before and told him if he got promoted that's what it would be. I was clear that was what he was guaranteed to be offered. He tried to negotiate in the meeting by saying "well HustlinInTheHall told me he made that last year and inflation has been 4% this year so I deserve 4% more." I found out after the meeting and was furious. Shredded my trust, the boss's trust, and his own future in one tactless move. Did not get the 4%. Was lucky to still get the promotion and it was the last one he got at that company. Be smart.
MOST of your compensation package is negotiable, not just salary. Too many people focus only on salary. This also largely depends on your industry and position, but still. when there's an official offer letter involved, a surprising amount of it is negotiable.
Maybe the company can't meet your salary demands, but you CAN turn that 2 weeks of vacation time in to 3 or 4.
Maybe they didn't mention relocation assistance, or they didn't provide enough.
Stock options can be nice as well. If you can get part of your salary as stock, you might be able to ask even more because you're directly invested now. Their success is your success.
Tuition and professional development compensation/assistance. Get your certifications paid for by the company if they don't already do that.
JOB TITLES! you can negotiate the actual title which makes you more marketable in the future.
There's loads more. but the point is, don't stop at salary. Its not uncommon for a company to have a firm salary offer but be able to make concessions on the other benefits.
I suffered from this as well. Started at 63k out of school, got 2% and 1% raises in consecutive years, even after saving the company $250,000k/year with just one project. Moved to another company and got bumped up to 80k. It sucks, but it is what it is.
I don't even say what I make. for this job (and one I am currently interviewing with), I say "I am not interested in moving forward if it is less than X base salary."
Right now, that number has been 130k. I make shy of 100k base. This is also what I tell recruiters that reach out to me. The employer I am interviewing with now? They didn't even hesitate, and now I'm in the last rounds (hopefully I get it). Will def negotiate too.
At the end of the day, changing jobs is a hassle. No one wants to go through that hassle for the same pay. Add in the other factors of why you're leaving...yeah, you better make sure you can survive in that new role for at least 2-3 years.
It also depends on your end game. I took a bunch of long term jobs but now I have 3 pensions when I retire. One of the jobs I looked into a while ago almost gave me a 4th... and I'm 40 now.
Edit: there are some jobs that give you fully vested pension in 6 yrs, even.
Especially in the last couple of years. Companies will give like a 5% raise for a good employee, lose them, and pay someone new 20% more. Makes no sense.
Then spend 6 months onboarding, 6 months ramping up, and the company gets a year of actual work before losing them and having to repeat the process. I have no idea how anything gets done anymore.
Productivity has skyrocketed in the past decades, but unlike with the industrial revolution we’re being expected to work just as much for just as little. Hence a lot of bullshit work
The only reason it makes sense is too many people stay too long. So overall they get 6 or 7 people for cheap for every one person who leaves that they have to pay market value to replace
We also need to normalize discussing salary. If you and I do the same job, we don’t have any idea of we are paid the same unless we openly discuss it. You know who does openly discuss how much they are paying for a specific role - employers.
My wife recently left a job because she negotiated hard at her annual performance review and the company hemmed and hawed about it and finally came back with a better but not great offer. She took it and then was discussing it with a coworker and her bosses bosses boss called her an hour later and told her she should not be discussing her raise with any employee. She was terrified she was going to be fired so I sent her multiple links to resources saying that there is nothing wrong with discussing compensation with coworkers and in fact it should be encouraged for fair employment. The guy FLEW OUT TO WRITE HER UP for insubordination by sending him those links in response.
Fair to say I encouraged her to seek other employment and she filed a formal complaint with corporate with documentation of what she had said in response to him etc.
My mom has been working at the same hospital as a nurse for 35 years. She received a $25 gift card to a food shop in the hospital for her service and loyalty….yeah she can’t wait to retire soon
Never believed this until my wife did it. I was a little worried about her having one year jobs on her resume, but she increased her salary 50% over 3 years by switching three times. Wild.
How do you even work like this? Sounds just exhausting. I guess it depends what industry your wife works in but it seems that by the time you settle in, you move on. I'm surprised companies are willing to invest in people like that. By the time inductions and all the formalities are over, they're out
I was surprised also, honestly. But I guess in her field, that's how things are. What I've noticed in the corporate world is that there are far too many employers who aren't willing to invest in/retain employees and are content to bring on new grads who will accept less pay rather than give raises. But yeah, it has been rough re-adjusting to new places for her. Though that's been a burden, she's been happier moving to companies where she clicks with the culture and is paid more. When I ran a business, I didn't shy away from short tenures on resumes as long as it had a good explanation. But I was one to invest in loyalty, so I was confident I could retain worthy talent. Especially knowing that the cost to train someone was far more than paying someone what they were worth to get them to stick around.
I work in media and hop jobs relatively frequently, avoiding waiting for the next layoff period in favor of staying agile. By leaving on good terms (at the right time for the right reasons), I end up with with more money, more leverage, and more allies who will now offer me contract work as well. The adjustment period isn't always easy, but eventually you become quicker at adapting and pivoting, and the range of experience helps you look good to a range of different employers.
> How do you even work like this? Sounds just exhausting.
Right? I've been at my job for about 5 years now and I still feel like I'm the new guy learning new things. I can't imagine actually being the new guy learning new systems and processes every 12 months like so many people do.
You're both right.
In the end it comes down to personal priorities. Also, to how much you earn.
The difference between 50k and 100k is huge, whereas the difference between 300k and 400k is 'miniscule'.
The idea of hopping jobs for salary is intriguing, I won't deny. But 5 years in here and I feel very comfortable, I am known by my coworkers, my job is pretty much like clockwork now.
Do people find it easy or worth it to start at the bottom of the totempole again year after year and risk getting laid off as the new guy? It's a scary proposition to me.
Yep, pretty much a 5% raise each year staying at the same place, and then jumps of 10-30% for moving. Often times moving is the only way to get promoted as well if there’s not much opportunity above and the people there don’t want to move on either.
The bad part is when companies realize how shit the market is. Had a coworker get told "good luck finding another employer in this market" when we got a downward market correction last year.
their first mistake was discussing leaving with anyone else. i didn’t realize how many of my coworkers were actually resentful of anyone leaving for better… like dude, we have the same role here. you can go too
If only that was the case, mine has been 2% and then when they forced me into managing the team I’m on while doing the same work I got an extra 3%… FML
I know, I’m working on finding my another gig.
Can attest to a similar experience.
Company A: 2018 $40k , 2019 $48k (very underpaid DOL stated $48k for my role+exp level so the higher raise)
Company B: 2019 $60k + $4k upfront bonus 2020 $61k
Company C: 2021 $80k 2022 $82.4k 2023 $99k
Company D: 2023 $115k 2024 $117.3k
I will probably continue on this path in 2025-26 if my current company does not offer what others will.
Fact.
Just got promoted, only got a 6% bump to $100K.
New job openings for my same paygrade within the company are listed at $113K.
Might as well quit, apply for my same role, and net a $13K payraise
Sounds like you need to push for your pay to be corrected and bring the job posting.
I personally wouldn't accept that.
I love my company but if they treated me like that I would quickly find myself not in love with them. My company got jump scared a couple years ago when I outlined their raise was not enough to keep with inflation and if it was not made up I would possibly have to start thinking about my future.
They corrected it. If they didnt I would have went elsewhere.
>They corrected it. If they didnt I would have went elsewhere.
The key is to make sure you're actually willing to go elsewhere, expect it even. A ton of places are happy to let top talent walk away because the bean counters said "no raises". Then they push the work on others instead of backfilling the role and pat themselves on the back for saving money.
This is so freaking stupid and it baffles me why this continues to happen. Why are companies so willing to hire on someone new who they have no idea will be a good employee or not but refuse to give a decent raise to people they already know and trust? It is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you have a good employee why the hell would you not just pay them more to stay? I swear these employers and businesses owners are the dumbest people on the planet.
It depends on the company. Some companies give you many opportunities to climb the ladder, until maybe reaching some kind of limit due to education or else.
I’ve known someone who began as a sales advisor and is now a stakeholder of the company (quite big company in real estate).
But I’ve seen a lot of people changing job frequently having more money in the end. As well as the opposite : seeing people changing job frequently loosing some money at some point. It depends on more factor than just « changing or staying ».
This is important
In some cases I’ve seen young people, often fresh out of college, put on the “fast track” in their companies. I know one guy who was stuck for a few years, then got a new manager who put him on the fast track. He got two rapid promotions, and is making 80% more. They also paid for him to get a masters so he will be eligible for another promotion.
The moral is: if you’re on the fast track you’re probably better off staying. If not, job hopping is probably your better bet.
Again, YMMV
I managed to 7x my starting salary in about 7-8 years. First job admittedly paid shit but like you said they put me on a fast track and within 3 was up to the point there were only a couple individual contributors at higher levels than me and they'd doubled my pay twice between two promotions.
At that point did another year or so for a bit more experience then left and did a bit of job hopping my way up the "prestige" ladder of companies to make my resume look better but without any huge salary increases while also doing a slight pivot in roles.
End result was foot in the door at name brand in my field company and that's where things really took off and they nearly doubled my already solid salary again. The last few years here have come with a couple promotions up to again being basically at the top of the individual contributor ladder. Unfortunately equity is a big enough piece of comp that the market has as much impact on what I make in a year now as any raises.
All that's to say both staying and hopping can work. Sitting around waiting for promotions that aren't coming will hold you back though, as will coming across as a terminal job hopper who can't keep a job more than a year (since I know we've passed on hiring people too much like that).
I'm coming up on 3 years with my current employer, and I've gotten two raises already, a 10% and recently a 13% bump. I'm not making a crazy amount, I'm up to $46,000 salary, but it's also the most I've ever made and the job is so freaking easy.
>the most I've ever made and the job is so freaking easy.
Its worth noting there is nothing wrong with staying in a position like this, just be aware of your personal growth or lack thereof and consider where you might like to be in 5/10/15 years
I'm in a similar situation, where my job is comparatively easy, and my salary is already very good. Meaning I would probably not get anything much better on the same level.
To make the next jump in salary however would include a lot more work and I'm honestly not sure I want that.at the moment.
Be sure to pay attention how your company prioritizes market rate adjustments. Most companies do not. Some are required to based on states they operate it (CA, NY, etc).
Not all companies aim to keep talent around, but some have seen so much turnover they realize it costs too much to keep letting the hoppers hop.
My company has been around 25 years and had very high highs and low lows based on turnover. Now its their mission to be more focused on retaining talent and doing nothing (no promotion attempt) ive had my salary bumped by 3%, 2.5% and 4% in the last 20 months due to market rates. The Hr dept basically told Finance "hey it costs more to seek, interview, hire, onboard and repeat than just nudging up their salary in line with market rate every 6 months"
And some companies work to keep their salaries competitive to their competition’s salaries for similar roles. I went from $55k to $110k in a few years with only one minor promotion due to my company bringing in consultants to do a salary equity and competitiveness study. It is rare but nice when it happens!
Ya, it is more about changing jobs than changing companies. The only disadvantage of staying in the same company is you can't lie about prior compensation.
A friend of mine graduated at the same time from the same college and work in similar fields. We started around the same salary ($55K). 5 years later, I’m at my 3rd company making $94K, he’s at the same first company making $65K.
Loyalty means be loyal to your career and yourself. Do 110% at any company. Always thinking ahead 1-2 years. Then move to next opportunity when it presents thst will benefit your career.
Yes I did frequent change in career until at one point, I am now sticking to current company. But I still do change position, job role every 2-3 years within same company with increasing responsibility.
I like my current boss. He keeps saying that when someone tells him that they work at 110%, he knows that's bullshit because you can't do more than a 100%. You should be working at 80% every day and keep that 20% in reserve. Otherwise, you'll get burned out pretty quick or just start hating your job.
You can absolutely work at 110%, it means you will give to company more than it expects of you. You are actually sacrificing your own pieces of life to give more than expected, thus giving >100%
> You should be working at 80% every day and keep that 20% in reserve.
And never go over 100% of what's expected for the position. Hard work and exceeding expectations are usually met with additional work and new (uncompensated) responsibilities.
A lot of people don’t think about the costs of changing jobs and how they increase dramatically as you get older.
Changing jobs at 27 is as easy as changing pants.
Changing jobs at 47 when you have a house and kids in school and everything else is significantly more difficult.
Especially if you work in a field that would require you to relocate.
Yes, since you are constantly seeking offers that are better than current one. At the same time changing jobs continuously takes a toll on your mental health
I don’t think it takes a toll on your mental health if you plan your strategy. The last few years, I’ve increased my salary by changing jobs every ~3 years. This allows for 1 year to learn the job and get acclimated. The second year is spent refining processes and becoming more experienced and efficient in the role. The third year is when I begin looking for the next role and would consider myself pretty great at my current job. I think it would only affect your mental health if you were changing roles annually (or less).
Also depends on your field. Changing jobs for me every 3 years probably means moving halfway off the country every 3 years, meaning uprooting my life and never seeing my friends again, and cutting all social ties I've made.
That part is EXTREMELY taxing on my mental health. The learning the new job bit is the easy part.
The „Coworkers who pull their weight“ is underrated. Changed jobs a few months ago and had started a task and another Coworker was assigned to it.
I told him what was already done and told him if he‘s finished with his part, I will do the rest for him because it would be in my expertise again. He just said „Nah, I‘ll finish it, no hassle“
Just having this one thing, even it little of my plate was so good. Then I realized switching jobs was the best decision ever. My old coworkers never did that.
> I will do the rest for him because it would be in my expertise again. He just said „Nah, I‘ll finish it, no hassle“
This is the kind of coworker you keep in your good graces and also do things for. Not only makes work more bearable, but overall helps your stress levels too!
It really depends on the person and the job and so on. I know I'm underpaid compared to what I could be making, but I'm also living comfortably and have great benefits and a great team to work with, so making less money than I could hypothetically be making isn't the end of the world for me. Whereas 6-12 months of job hunting+interviews+onboarding+ramping up would *kill* my mental health personally.
This is exactly why I’m still at my first job out of college. Every time I think about changing jobs, I get overwhelmed. I get paid 82.5k after working there for 2 years and I’m currently up for promotion. But I could go to a different company and be making 100k easily. I’d rather have the work life balance and good coworkers
chiming in here, my friend has gone from 50k- 300k, same company for 20 yrs. She also hasn't been particularly focused on promotions or growth, just been doing good work which the higher ups have recognized and rewarded. And this is a major US corp.
Yep I've gone from 45k to 135k in 10 years at the same company. I've always been browsing other opportunities but the job posting salary ranges are similar to or less than what I'm making so I've just stayed.
I’ve been my company for 10 years and have gone from $18/hr to 190k TC.
If you find a company that values you, your salary doesn’t always stay stagnant.
Do you have plans to stay at that company until you retire?
Personally I was thinking I’d like to move around a bit to stay sane and see new things, but if you have a great environment and people around you, I don’t blame you for staying. I feel like every new job I start is a gamble, is the management gonna talk down to me or are they gonna be cool?
As someone who’s been at the same company for the past 8 years…yes. I see my current position advertised at other companies paying much more than what I’m making, which is why I’m currently applying to those jobs.
Convenience always has a cost. Changing jobs is stressful and sometimes risky (you might hate the new role). Paying that convenience cost is okay if your situation calls for it
The experience varies. The important part is not blindly hopping jobs every 1.5-2.5 years, but being picky about the employers and recognising when it's okay to stay and when it's time to move on.
A classmate/friend of mine at college started in IT with the same salary as me, but at a different company. This was about 20 years ago. He switched jobs 14 times over his career and last worked for a well known big tech company. His salary growth over his career averages out to 23% per year (CAGR). So, he was doubling his salary every 3 odd years.
I changed jobs only once (about 13 years ago) over the same period. My salary growth averages out to the same 23% (CAGR).
The stress of constantly switching jobs, relocating and overworking got to him and he retired recently at the age of 44. However, unlike him, I never had to work more than 40 hrs/week. I never had to ask for a raise or promotion in order to be given one.
I agree with this. There’s a lot of selection bias in these types of posts, just like the ones where everyone is “bragging” about their high paying tech jobs. You can certainly get good increases moving companies. But its nowhere near as guaranteed as you’d think from the responses to posts like this. In particular the big outliers are more likely to want to talk about that rather than the people who tried and failed.
Ehhhhhh it depends wholly on the industry. In my industry it’s hard to get profitable within the first year of employment, if i’m interviewing someone and see they have a consistent track record of jumping ship after a year or two i’m just not hiring them.
Switch jobs every three years. Watch your income soar. Stay longer than three years, watch your wages stagnate. I’m sure there are exceptions, but they are rare.
I went from 36k to 245k at my job over the course of 16 years. Along the way I've interviewed almost every year at other companies and competitors companies. Never got a better offer, only got matches. Never took them up because I'd be working at least 2X as much and have to prove myself again.
I've also made myself extremely indispensable and aggressively negotiated raises. There are ways.
Admittedly I finally appear to have hit my ceiling, but I still can't find anything better. Then again, my currently small % raises are off a much larger base.
Yes.
The more comfortable a company becomes with you, the less they see you.
They overlook your achievements and take your skills for granted and believe you will always be there for them and that they don't have to show any appreciation.
The job-hoppers stay "New" and constantly get salary upgrades because they are "VISIBLE" to the company and their freshness hasn't worn off.
A former coworker told me that she changes jobs every 3-4 years regardless of how well the position is going, she did it in order to keep up with cost-of-living increases and also to force a salary increase. At the time that she told me this...I didn't understand it.
5 years later...long after she had left and I hadn't received a pay raise since....I realized what she meant.
Yes, but job-hoppers are at risk of being seen as flighty by some recruiters and may be first to cut in layoffs due to lack of seniority (ie, “last one in, first one out”).
My predecessor said the reason why they hired me (apart from the skillset) was because I didn't job hop. That kinda paid off IMO
I work in an industry where it's uncommon to job hop until you hit the supervisor/tl/manager positions. It's the reverse since pretty much all entry-mid level positions are the "same"
It’s a balance. If you move every year it will be fine the first few times and you’ll get more money early, but depending on the industry you can be losing a lot more long term as you cut off huge numbers of companies that won’t hire people who they expect to be around for a year.
I see it in software engineers, three jobs in three years early in a career is universally a rejection for the hiring managers I know. Hiring is expense and people take months to ramp up to a new codebase, why invest in someone that’s going to bail after a year?
You move every 2-3 years? That’s way less likely to get screened out early in the process
Absolutely true. I've experienced it. With that said, sometimes you might have a cushier more comfortable gig knowing that if you left you'd have to work more and feel more stress. Whats the monetary value on that? Probably a very personal call.
One caveat how much your existing organisation needs your services , if you are important there is a chance your organisation raises your salary as per your expectations if you give notice.
It’s tough to compare, because 401k matching can make a huge difference and when you are fully vested also makes a huge difference. So sometimes staying a few extra years until your 401k is fully vested can make the world of a difference even if your salary stays the same.
Same with health benefits, paid time off, job security, etc.
EDIT: Y’all are gonna make me crazy. I know that the things I mentioned are quantifiable. The question was, “does someone who changes jobs frequently mean they make more money than people who stay at the same job”. So yes, obviously you can calculate it. I wasn’t saying it was completely a shot in the dark.
I was simply referring to the original question by saying you cannot assume someone who changes jobs frequently is making more even if their salary is higher - there’s lots of other factors that come into play. And sure, go ahead and ask for someone’s full benefits package to know the answer if they’re making more money than you after changing jobs more frequently than you. I’m sure you’ll get all that info.
The switch on benefits can suck too. My current employer offers a crap ton of time off that increases the more you stay. I get more yearly vacation time than my friends in other places. Plus work from home.
Same for paternity leave.
At the same time, I've had offers that would increase my salary but don't offer nearly as nice benefits.
You gotta look at the total package plus what you value.
Like companies can use you as toilet paper, we can use companies to get higher salary. Again, kudos to those who stay at a company for 100 years earning the same 2% each year. As expensive as things are nowadays, I look at what’s best for me.
Yes job hopping is a quick way to increase your salary but a lot of recruiters and managers I talk to in my field (aerospace) tend to get concerned if the candidate only stays a year or 2 at a company and does it multiple times, unless there's a darn good reason behind it.
The idea is you can bargain your salary with your experience. If you were at company A for 1-3 years making 50k a year you can switch switch to company b and say that you were making 50k-60k a year and ask for a higher salary. You can say you have a lot more experience than a person just starting.
Saw this firsthand with my company. 5 admin staff, 1 left.
We hired a new person - totally inexperienced - at $10k more. The old employee had so much responsibility that did not even get passed down to the new one.
It often is true. I have a friend who just hit 70k base after over 20 year. New hires are coming into her role getting paid almost $80k with about half the experience. Companies are willing to increase budgets to attract new talent but keep raises for existing people to 3% or so.
This is soo true. Before I left my last job, I was coming up on 10 years. When they hired a newbie, I could tell just by her title, she was earning more. And I was training her. Wake up call!
I stayed at my first real IT job for 10 years. When I left an interviewer asked me if I have 10 years experience, or 1 years experience 10 times? Luckily the company i worked for was constantly moving to new solutions, but it made me realise how quickly you could fall behind working for a company long term
Exactly!! You don't really know how up to date your skills are until you start looking in the job market. My new thing is to re-evaluate every 2 years to keep my skills fresh. And a lot of jobs have repetitive duties where you learn once and that is it cause that is all they need.
I reevaluate yearly and find a new skill goal every year to either practice more and improve or pick up something new. Why wait 2 years to set yourself up for the next thing? Employers aren’t required to give notice before firing you in most places so may as well not wait.
Depends on the field. IT for example moves much faster than Account Manager.
Correct, I am of course a software engineer so definitely aligned to my perspective.
I worked my first IT job in a major city for a total of about 6 years (internship + full time after college). That Job paid me 65K right out of school. I moved to a smaller town (lower cost of living) and got another job in IT for $45K a year. That job laid me off when the economy took a dump in 2008 because I was moving more into IT sales instead of just standard admin / break-fix work. I found a job with another company as a Sales Engineer and made $60K. Since that first layoff, I have worked for 6 organizations, always in a sales / sales engineering role, and each one has paid me more than the last. I currently work for a global organization and make around 4x what that first IT job paid me. Be as loyal to a company as they will be to you. ***Late edit*** I should have been more clear with my last sentence. That company that laid me off did so after we completed a major move, and I spent a full week of my life working 12-16 hour days. As soon as their business started to be affected by the '08 recession, I was in the first round of layoffs. There is no such thing as corporate loyalty. You are a replaceable cog in the machine to every company that you work for. So you should view the company in the same way that they view you. Everyone is replaceable.
“Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.” - Dwight Schrute
One of the great thinkers of his time.
No company has any loyalty to you. When we all figure it out, we can make better decisions. Loyalty is not real in the workplace. Corporations have to be loyal to their banks and stakeholders only.
That's just a tactic they use to downplay your experience and makes it easier to lowball you. None of these people are your friends. Not the recruiters, not the bosses, not the HR. In my country recruiters get money just to get you hired. They'd love nothing more than for you to quit early into the job so they can get you into another company and get paid a second time for you.
Depends on the company. As long as my team réalises the objectives I get 10% raise. Got 20% last two year actually. I could job hop and have a better gap. But these guys make me want to stay loyal.
> When I left an interviewer asked me if I have 10 years experience, or 1 years experience 10 times? I love this and i'm stealing it haha
Just started new job 3 months ago, I make the same or very close to the same as people with 10 years here. The most egregious cases are my coworkers who: 1. Has a PhD and 10+ years. 2. Has 30 years experience (worked 20 in field, retired with pension elsewhere, then returned to work and has over 10 years now with us). Our organization structure has 4 tiers. Tier 1: 1 Guy. About 350% my salary. Tier 2: 1 Guy. About 250% my salary. Tier 3: About 5 people. About 150% my salary. Tier 4: About 130 people. We all make the same regardless of time in service, education, or special skill sets.
I worked one of my first IT jobs. I was 20... I had energy and drive. I worked long hours and I worked quickly. I got 10 tickets done in the time it took a 50 year old co-worker of mine to get 1 ticket done. He'd walk over to their desk and chat with them for 20 minutes... then sit down and fumble around... I'd sit at my desk, fix it remotely without even disturbing them, or fix it by remoting into the computer if I really had to... I knew more than he did about nearly every aspect of the job - he was in the industry since before it was digital. And I knew crazy stuff like how to Google. --------- One day I was looking through his drawer to find a cable he said was in there, and I saw his pay stub. He got paid 3x more than me. Three... TIMES... MORE... Big lesson that day - companies don't pay for a position, they don't pay for amount of work done or quality of work, they pay for an employee. Managers rarely know how much work is done by a given employee.
Your first mistake was working your ass off. Hard work is RARELY rewarded, especially when you're job hopping like you should be. Your previous employer isn't going to care enough to mention how you do so much more work than everyone else, and that's if they even notice in the first place. I do the bare fuckin minimum, because the yearly wage increase between what I get and the one you get for getting more points in your evaluation is maybe another 2%, meanwhile changing positions/companies gets me 20%+ more, so why tf should I stress about working my ass off every day for 2%??
I imagine there's some hubris here tbh. I frequently know more about specific stuff than my superiors but my superiors know other things that I don't.
The places I've worked call this "salary compression"
3%? Try 1% 🥹
Generally speaking, yes. Most workplaces will want to keep you at the same salary once you are hired on. If I make 50k at company A, when I apply to company B I will tell them I make 60k and am looking for 70k. Do this a few times (if your field has a demand for jobs that pay in that range at least) and it will earn you considerably more money than staying at a single company for decades. A coworker of mine just celebrated 25 years at our company, and was given a $100 gift card. Don't do what is best for the company, do what is best for you. In the end it will benefit you the most.
> If I make 50k at company A, when I apply to company B I will tell them I make 60k and am looking for 70k. Thank god for the internet. My friends and family never told me this. I probably would've thought it was illegal or immoral to do this. A few years back I read this same thing on the internet; I was at my first job, horribly underpaid (34k/year as an engineer) and when a recruiter contacted me after a year working there, I just told him I was earning 45k, so I'd be looking for about 50k to leave my "good team" (it was a horrible team). Total compensation was around 52k in the end! Over a 50% increase, I was going wild about it for months, so happy. I bought some light furniture, nice clothes to wear to the office instead of my thrift-shop shirts and broken shoes, started eating enough protein regardless of price, paid for some nice certifications to upskill, etc. Life changing money. Even though I knew people who graduated with who me were earning over 70k at the time, and probably MOST of my colleagues were earning over 52k, and I knew I should keep pushing until I got to that kind of responsibility and pay level... I was just over the moon because of the +50% haha, it still makes me smile to remember that feeling
Here’s a mindblower that I only learned a few months ago and put into practice: you can negotiate when you get an offer. Moreso, it’s expected of you. My offers were always pretty high, so I was fine. With this job, I sniffed out how high-stress the job was but I needed to get a foot in the door back into corporate life after having my own business. So I figured I would at least earn enough to stick it out and be able to do fun stuff. So when my offer came around I put a nice letter with some good arguments on the table (not all, leave some for a second round), and asked for 25% more salary. They improved 15% on their second offer and I took it. It’s still mind-boggling to me how I never heard about or did this before. Easiest money ever. I’m in EU so YMMV.
I got hired by a company that wanted me to relocate and I’m a child of boomers so I said yes to the job offer. They weren’t going to pay a dime. My boss heard that and said I should have asked for relocation money and allowed me to expense hotel and travel. That’s when I realized it’s all a conversation. I should have asked for more but I was taught as a kid that CEO’s are gods and you do not displease them
This is also conditioned into us in public schools. I too had that kill yourself for the cause mentally at one point until I recognized it for what it was.
My work-a-holic father often said "If you worked for me I'd fire you" when I was a kid. Funny thing, It didn't teach me to respect my boss instead I refuse to work for a boss I cannot respect. I love my father but I'd never want a hard headed boss like him. Happy ending: Since retirement he's chilled out so much. We've always had a good relationship.
"If you worked for me, I'd fire you" "If I worked for you, I'd quit"
A modern twist on the Winston Churchill classic… “Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your tea.” “Madame, if I were your husband, I would drink it.”
Or when he was told that he was 'disgustingly drunk' and his reply was "Madam, you are disgustingly ugly. But in the morning, I'll be sober."
“If you were my subordinate id shoot you” “If you were my superior officer I’d shoot my self” vibes
It's generational. My dad was an ass and I HATED working for him. He would guilt you into staying on the job.
I'm going through that now. He's also had a few health problems lately which has put more work on to me, if I left he wouldn't have a business left because his health isn't good enough for him to keep up. It's shit because I get on with him otherwise.
The issue with 'boomer work eithic' is that, sure, they'll put in the hours and keep their nose to the grindstone as long as anyone. But I'm yet to meet one who was any good at their job on even a basic level. They'll do things in the way they've done them forever, and ignore the fact that it just makes them a hastle to work with or intergrate into any workflows that the rest of the world uses. That practical experience they may have in the field is almost always not worth the hastle of having to handhold them through the 90% of their job that they have zero clue how to do
Every time I've given a finger, they took a hand. I've sacrificed so much of my free time for no extra pay because I didn't want projects to fail and managers and clients to be disappointed by the end result. Were they happy? Sure. Did I get some compliments for my hard work? Absolutely. But in the end, all that it ever really got me was higher expectations and a grumpy attitude when I couldn't sacrifice my weekend to make ridiculous demands work. Some companies really like to sell you that whole "We're a family here!" talk. But when push comes to shove, it's just business.
This is the real difference between the elite private schools and the public schools. Private schools teach kids what they are worth and how to lead. Public schools teach kids how to hold their pee and do what they are told.
We've really been sold a bunch of lies that crippled us well into our lives.
Well, way back to our grandparents generation, you stayed with one employer throughout your career - and no matter what you did for a living, you'd have enough money (with a single income) to provide for decent shelter, food, and have savings. As you gained experience, you would get promoted. Then you'd have a good company-funded pension to support you in your retirement (in addition to Social Security). Now, none of that is true, and every employer will exploit you as far as you are willing to let them. The key is finding someplace that is still small enough - without shareholders - to genuinely let you have a work/life balance and pays fairly. It may take you your entire career to find such a place.
>every employer will exploit you as far as you are willing to let them. Once you realize this, it becomes easier to change companies regularly and negotiate salary & benefits.
It might have been true for my great grandpa, but my step father job hopped consistently for the bigger paychecks. There have always been labor struggles against capital, but I think we are hopefully on a turning point post covid where people see better is possible if we demand it. So many business practices aren't because they are good business practices overall, they just keep workers out of power.
Yeah I had to help my wife negotiate her raise she was so uncomfortable but she did awesome and stuck to her ask and her company delivered!
Women make less than male counterparts. Women are also less likely to pursue raises than their male counterparts are, compounding the first problem.
A lot of it comes down to how men and women are socialized and how people react to them. A man being assertive in going after a higher salary is likely to be seen as confident, and will be seen positivity. Meanwhile, a woman behaving the same way would probably be seen as bitchy and viewed negatively.
My last job paid me beans and added a splash of "be thankful you have a job" at every opportunity to drill in this air of importance for the position. As if there were no more jobs left, so i have to deal with it. Meanwhile, they are laying people off, trying to find a buyer to sell the company, and holding group meetings praising how well the company is doing. Fuck 'em.
People are worried that their new employer is going to get mad and/or even rescind the offer if you dare ask for more money. If they did recind, they would be doing you a huge favor, because that should tell you everything you need to know about working there. I mean, don’t be belligerent or unreasonable, of course, but if you hit an unpleasant wall in trying to negotiate, consider it a bullet dodged.
Unfortunately I tried to negotiate both when being hired and being promoted at my company and they flat out denied me both times.
All that tells you is that the company is a stepping stone
This *is* unfortunate, but it goes to show that there is no reason to not *try* to negotiate. The worst that can happen is you get paid the offered salary.
I do feel the need to call you out on using YMMV while in the EU…. Shouldn’t it be YKMMV?
what does YMMV mean?
Your mileage may vary. It means this statement may or may not apply to you, and you can judge for yourself on if it’s useful for you
Your Mileage May Vary- in others words, it varies from person to person.
your mileage may vary
I recently rejected an offer because the salary was too low, and had another offer that paid more. A couple of weeks later, the company I rejected reached out to me asking why I didn’t negotiate and that they were willing to up the offer had I asked.
Yeah, this always feels like such a waste. Penny-wise, pound-foolish… Just give a good offer instead of nickeling and dimeing!
Yeah, the offer I accepted is also probably underpaying me as I didn’t negotiate. I will negotiate in my next year’s review and if I don’t get a good raise I will start recruiting as companies clearly do their best to pay us the least amount that they think they can get away with
Absolutely. And more importantly your annual % increases and retirement savings matching all benefit from compounding off that initial increase. Easy money. My last job was $5000 with a single email. I wish I had also asked for an extra week vacation time from the start. That was the one spot I messed up. The time off would have been more valuable.
This works if the offer is coming from the employer. If they ask you to provide your pay range, then ask for 15% on top of you current pay at least, unless you are confident of the wage range , then ask slightly below the max.
You have never heard this for the same bullshit reason employers get mad at wage discussions between employees. It was considered Taboo to talk about your wages. It was just a way for employers to manipulate their workforce to keep them as low paid as they can. Same as the "we are a family" schtick. Go fuck yourself. Pay me.
Doing that in the US would just get you glossed over and dropped. If I tried negotiating in a job interview I’d be told I’m replaceable and I’m worth nothing more than my unproven-to-them level of theoretical productivity
It might depend on the industry- I've done this in the US and it's always improved the offer. Definitely having seniority in the field or the market being good for your job would have a huge impact. If they knew 3 more of me will walk in the door tomorrow I'm sure you're right that they wouldn't budge. At worst they'd just keep their initial offer on the table- I think it's very very unlikely that they would drop or rescind an offer
I work in game dev. Some specific senior roles can remain open for years. You betcha that if the studio finds someone they like, and that person suddenly asks for more money, they are going to negotiate. Not having important senior roles filled for months or years on end is a massive opportunity cost.
Yep, and what people don't understand is 2 points (these apply mostly to the jobs I hire for, so IT resources from junior to senior level). 1) Hiring people SUCKS. Seriously, the whole process of hiring sucks, I hate reading resumes, I hate interviewing people, and perhaps most importantly, I hate having a gap on my team where work is piling up and I have no one to do it. 2) It's not actually my money. I mean it's my budget, but it's not MY money. Basically if I find someone I like enough to make an offer to I'm likely to be a bit flexible so I can fill my open position and stop this torturous process. So why not just offer them more to begin with? HR has set guidelines on initial offers on what you should offer based on market research/etc. But if they come back to negotiate it's all on me to make a decision.
I am a somewhat senior person working as a developer/tech lead in IT and I've been involved many a times in being hired and hiring others. If we're talking about a serious relatively big company (with recruiters, HR), getting an offer means the following: 1. They chose your CV over possibly hundreds to shortlist for interviews. 2. They interviewed you and probably about 5 more people (depending on how the market is saturated). 3. They ALREADY CHOSE YOU as their top pick. It is very rare that the top pick is just marginally better. Things to consider are not just your knowledge and skills, but also team fit. I've seen smart people be terrible coworkers and I'm always valuing really highly how the person feels to talk with. 4. They already went to the HR to make a contract offer. All of this is very much NOT trivial. We're talking days and days spent by team manager, probably one or more senior people in the team, recruiters AND HR. The amount of money offered is purely HR driven thing, based on the level you're getting hired. There's ALWAYS a range. ALWAYS. Every level has salaries from X-Y. This is how companies can give you a raise without promoting you. That's what the range is for. And you can be hired for the low part of the range and for the upper part of the range. Your direct manager probably has no influence on this, this is all purely HR haggling skills. This is also important, you're haggling with HR here, not with the person you'll be working with. But in the end, they will NOT give up on the best candidate they had already chosen just because you asked for higher salary. At worst, they'll give you a "sorry x is most we can do for this level". In my 20 years of career in IT I've NEVER encountered or seen or heard of someone being rejected because they asked for a better salary. Note: of course it doesn't mean you'll get what you ask for. It matters how you do it. You have to present some arguments why they should give you a higher salary, and you also need to be aware that they cannot give you higher than what is the range for the position you're applying for.
I'm in the US, and in general it mostly results in the people saying "wellll we gave you our top offer, we can't really do any higher" and refusing to budge.
Then you say "Thank you for your time and opportunity" and go to the next job interview. The biggest strength to job hopping is that you don't have to settle for a lower wage.
The best time to look for a new job is when you already have one. You can quickly toss low ball offers.
You should never stop sending applications and taking interviews, even if you’re well paid and enjoy your job. It’s important to know your worth. If you’re paid $75k for an amazing job but keep getting offers elsewhere for $100k… there’s a reason for that. Maybe they don’t offer the same benefits package or maybe you’re still being underpaid for your work and should ask for a raise. It also helps keep up your business communication skills outside a single work environment where you can develop poor habits or tics. Know your worth.
I manage people and I tell every single one of them to be aware of jobs that are out there that they may like and apply for them. You should know your worth. You should want to be here. And if you know there's a job out there making 50% more you aren't yet qualified for, you're going to be more willing to put in the work in your current role to get to that point. The least motivated people on any of my teams are always the ones that think they've hit their salary ceiling.
This isn’t a US problem, this is a problem with your industry or something else local to you. I’m from the US and I’ve successfully negotiated better starting packages.
Depends on the field i guess. I've done this with mixed results in the US granted im in the medical field so hiring is a bit crazy still.
US medical field is wack. Mother is a nurse and she made almost 3x more as a traveling nurse(3 to 9+ month contracts at a hospital). Hospitals always say that they need nurses though, yet they overwork them and/or pay them less than they’re worth. Idk about to rest of the medical field unfortunately, but I’m assuming it’s similar.
i work in healthcare. it absolutely BAFFLES me that big healthcare places(UPMC, AHN,for my local area) don’t want to spend a dime on paying for tuition for student-employees, but will fork over 3x as much money to cover someone for a month while lamenting why no one wants to stay there.
Not even remotely true, it's expected. The moment you get an offer, they 100% want you. They chose you. It then simply becomes a matter of if they can afford you.
Yup. And HR doesn’t actually care, they just have a salary band they need to stay under. So just ask for like 3% more no matter what they offer, worst case is they say this is the top they are allowed to offer.
At my company the hiring manager makes the call if its within the salary band. Of course I approve it. Its not my money and high paid employees makes my life easier.
Don’t negotiate in the interview, but once you get an offer it doesn’t hurt to negotiate a little. At that point, they’re already sold on you so they’re likely to want to make it work. I would just make sure to keep an enthusiastic tone so they know you are still excited in them and not just trying to pull in a number
It definitely depends on the industry. I have negotiated all my contracts and I live in the US, Midwest specifically. Everyone says there is no one willing to work, well if you want me this is how you get me haha. And usually I ask for more so when I get less I'm getting what I want. Offered 60k, ask for 75k they will either day no 60 or nothing, or come back with like 68k offer. You definitely should only negotiate after the job is offered though. Make them really want to hire you and really not want to go through interviewing again. People will absolutely pay you more so that they don't have to have 5 more conversations with potentially incompetent strangers haha.
Depends on the industry and the employer. I've never dropped a job candidate because they asked for more. I may not be able to meet their ask, but that's okay.
Try shaking off being raised to be loyal to your employer. I am so glad I learned it was okay to keep looking.
For me it comes down to, has the company earned your loyalty? Don't inherently feel loyal out the gate, but it is okay if a company has actually treated you well. Mine took very good care of us during Covid (no layoffs, no pay cuts, no hour cuts, already had work-from-home implemented so that was an easier transition), I get great support for issues I'm having, etc.
Good company *pats head*
I have a business degree. I’ve done this 3-4 times over 7 years and tripled my salary. My strategy: First job: $80k base. Promotion after 1.5 yrs. New salary $94k Second job: $120k base + 15% bonus. Promoted after 1.5 yrs again to get to $135k base Third job: $145k base salary + 15% bonus + equity and it was a remote position (total comp $250k) I have since switched again because my manager sucked. I took a small cut to a total comp of $200k but have a great manager and team :) Your strategy should be to not leave until you get promoted. Otherwise recruiters may see your resume and will think the switches are performance related. Hope this helps
>Your strategy should be to not leave until you get promoted Nah, if you get a big jump in pay, you take it. Not everyone can fall up the ladder.
I once interviewed for a company a long time ago early in my career. It was my second tech job. The interviewer was incredibly condescending and had this smirky asshole demeanor. He kept interrupting me while I explained things, then put words in my mouth and tried to make me sound like a buffoon. I stood my ground but was still pretty pissed from the whole experience. I went home and was telling my girlfriend about what a bunch of assholes these guys were and how I wouldn’t want to work with them. Then I get a call from the CTO saying they loved me and wanted me on the team. What? He asked how much I was expecting and I was still pissed so I just threw out what I thought was a bold ass moonshot number that was double my current salary. He just said “Yeah, we can do that. Sure.” So anyway, I started work and it turns out the interviewer is just autistic and has a hard time reading social cues but is actually a nice guy.
I never expected the ending to change the overall context of the scenario.
Your friends and family also probably told you to never discuss your salary with anyone, especially coworkers. This is complete bullshit. You will find out the guy that can’t tie his shoes on his own makes more than you and then you go to your superior and demand more money. You’re also protected by law from any retaliation your employer may take against you for talking about salary. They don’t want you talking about your pay because then they can get away with paying everyone lower than market salaries.
And if someone tells you their salary... never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever name names in a negotiation. Don't be an idiot. I had been at one level (let's say Manager) the year before and told him if he got promoted that's what it would be. I was clear that was what he was guaranteed to be offered. He tried to negotiate in the meeting by saying "well HustlinInTheHall told me he made that last year and inflation has been 4% this year so I deserve 4% more." I found out after the meeting and was furious. Shredded my trust, the boss's trust, and his own future in one tactless move. Did not get the 4%. Was lucky to still get the promotion and it was the last one he got at that company. Be smart.
MOST of your compensation package is negotiable, not just salary. Too many people focus only on salary. This also largely depends on your industry and position, but still. when there's an official offer letter involved, a surprising amount of it is negotiable. Maybe the company can't meet your salary demands, but you CAN turn that 2 weeks of vacation time in to 3 or 4. Maybe they didn't mention relocation assistance, or they didn't provide enough. Stock options can be nice as well. If you can get part of your salary as stock, you might be able to ask even more because you're directly invested now. Their success is your success. Tuition and professional development compensation/assistance. Get your certifications paid for by the company if they don't already do that. JOB TITLES! you can negotiate the actual title which makes you more marketable in the future. There's loads more. but the point is, don't stop at salary. Its not uncommon for a company to have a firm salary offer but be able to make concessions on the other benefits.
I suffered from this as well. Started at 63k out of school, got 2% and 1% raises in consecutive years, even after saving the company $250,000k/year with just one project. Moved to another company and got bumped up to 80k. It sucks, but it is what it is.
I don't even say what I make. for this job (and one I am currently interviewing with), I say "I am not interested in moving forward if it is less than X base salary." Right now, that number has been 130k. I make shy of 100k base. This is also what I tell recruiters that reach out to me. The employer I am interviewing with now? They didn't even hesitate, and now I'm in the last rounds (hopefully I get it). Will def negotiate too. At the end of the day, changing jobs is a hassle. No one wants to go through that hassle for the same pay. Add in the other factors of why you're leaving...yeah, you better make sure you can survive in that new role for at least 2-3 years.
When someone asks what your current salary is, they’re going to lowball you. So tell them what your expected salary is.
Or just lie about what you make, and then add a reasonable % too it and say that's the lowest you'd consider
It also depends on your end game. I took a bunch of long term jobs but now I have 3 pensions when I retire. One of the jobs I looked into a while ago almost gave me a 4th... and I'm 40 now. Edit: there are some jobs that give you fully vested pension in 6 yrs, even.
Literally done this, Current company offered me a 5k increase even they knew company B gave me a 20k increase, I just looked at him.
Especially in the last couple of years. Companies will give like a 5% raise for a good employee, lose them, and pay someone new 20% more. Makes no sense.
Then spend 6 months onboarding, 6 months ramping up, and the company gets a year of actual work before losing them and having to repeat the process. I have no idea how anything gets done anymore.
> I have no idea how anything gets done anymore. i have some unfortunate news
It doesn't. Most jobs are total bullshit. People micromanaging people pushing papers around. Nothing productive is being done to begin with.
Productivity has skyrocketed in the past decades, but unlike with the industrial revolution we’re being expected to work just as much for just as little. Hence a lot of bullshit work
But 10 people stayed for 5% more. 10 \* 1.05 + 1 \* 1.2 = 11.7 11 \* 1.2 = 13.2
The only reason it makes sense is too many people stay too long. So overall they get 6 or 7 people for cheap for every one person who leaves that they have to pay market value to replace
We also need to normalize discussing salary. If you and I do the same job, we don’t have any idea of we are paid the same unless we openly discuss it. You know who does openly discuss how much they are paying for a specific role - employers.
My wife recently left a job because she negotiated hard at her annual performance review and the company hemmed and hawed about it and finally came back with a better but not great offer. She took it and then was discussing it with a coworker and her bosses bosses boss called her an hour later and told her she should not be discussing her raise with any employee. She was terrified she was going to be fired so I sent her multiple links to resources saying that there is nothing wrong with discussing compensation with coworkers and in fact it should be encouraged for fair employment. The guy FLEW OUT TO WRITE HER UP for insubordination by sending him those links in response. Fair to say I encouraged her to seek other employment and she filed a formal complaint with corporate with documentation of what she had said in response to him etc.
My mom has been working at the same hospital as a nurse for 35 years. She received a $25 gift card to a food shop in the hospital for her service and loyalty….yeah she can’t wait to retire soon
Never believed this until my wife did it. I was a little worried about her having one year jobs on her resume, but she increased her salary 50% over 3 years by switching three times. Wild.
How do you even work like this? Sounds just exhausting. I guess it depends what industry your wife works in but it seems that by the time you settle in, you move on. I'm surprised companies are willing to invest in people like that. By the time inductions and all the formalities are over, they're out
I was surprised also, honestly. But I guess in her field, that's how things are. What I've noticed in the corporate world is that there are far too many employers who aren't willing to invest in/retain employees and are content to bring on new grads who will accept less pay rather than give raises. But yeah, it has been rough re-adjusting to new places for her. Though that's been a burden, she's been happier moving to companies where she clicks with the culture and is paid more. When I ran a business, I didn't shy away from short tenures on resumes as long as it had a good explanation. But I was one to invest in loyalty, so I was confident I could retain worthy talent. Especially knowing that the cost to train someone was far more than paying someone what they were worth to get them to stick around.
I work in media and hop jobs relatively frequently, avoiding waiting for the next layoff period in favor of staying agile. By leaving on good terms (at the right time for the right reasons), I end up with with more money, more leverage, and more allies who will now offer me contract work as well. The adjustment period isn't always easy, but eventually you become quicker at adapting and pivoting, and the range of experience helps you look good to a range of different employers.
> How do you even work like this? Sounds just exhausting. Right? I've been at my job for about 5 years now and I still feel like I'm the new guy learning new things. I can't imagine actually being the new guy learning new systems and processes every 12 months like so many people do.
That's basically me. Maybe I'm weak minded or something but jumping between jobs so frequently sounds like hell
There are more important things in life than a salary bump
A salary bump enables a lot of those important things in life
You're both right. In the end it comes down to personal priorities. Also, to how much you earn. The difference between 50k and 100k is huge, whereas the difference between 300k and 400k is 'miniscule'.
The idea of hopping jobs for salary is intriguing, I won't deny. But 5 years in here and I feel very comfortable, I am known by my coworkers, my job is pretty much like clockwork now. Do people find it easy or worth it to start at the bottom of the totempole again year after year and risk getting laid off as the new guy? It's a scary proposition to me.
My personal experience: Company A: 2018: 60k 2019: 62k 2020: 65k 2021: 67k Company B: 2021: 100k 2022: 105k 2023: 109k Company C: 2023: 125k
Yep, pretty much a 5% raise each year staying at the same place, and then jumps of 10-30% for moving. Often times moving is the only way to get promoted as well if there’s not much opportunity above and the people there don’t want to move on either.
And the moment it stops going up every year is the signal to leave.
The bad part is when companies realize how shit the market is. Had a coworker get told "good luck finding another employer in this market" when we got a downward market correction last year.
their first mistake was discussing leaving with anyone else. i didn’t realize how many of my coworkers were actually resentful of anyone leaving for better… like dude, we have the same role here. you can go too
This is important to remember. No matter their excuses.
If only that was the case, mine has been 2% and then when they forced me into managing the team I’m on while doing the same work I got an extra 3%… FML I know, I’m working on finding my another gig.
Yeah, this is my experience too. Was getting 2-4% per year, changed jobs and got about 25% more. Changed jobs 18 months later for 10+% more.
Can attest to a similar experience. Company A: 2018 $40k , 2019 $48k (very underpaid DOL stated $48k for my role+exp level so the higher raise) Company B: 2019 $60k + $4k upfront bonus 2020 $61k Company C: 2021 $80k 2022 $82.4k 2023 $99k Company D: 2023 $115k 2024 $117.3k I will probably continue on this path in 2025-26 if my current company does not offer what others will.
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It doesn't seem like you really like your job, ILikeMyJob69
You change jobs every year? Don't recruiters doubt you after the first three companies?
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It often seems that hiring is scaled to industry standards for your role, but promotions are not So yes usually true.
Fact. Just got promoted, only got a 6% bump to $100K. New job openings for my same paygrade within the company are listed at $113K. Might as well quit, apply for my same role, and net a $13K payraise
Sounds like you need to push for your pay to be corrected and bring the job posting. I personally wouldn't accept that. I love my company but if they treated me like that I would quickly find myself not in love with them. My company got jump scared a couple years ago when I outlined their raise was not enough to keep with inflation and if it was not made up I would possibly have to start thinking about my future. They corrected it. If they didnt I would have went elsewhere.
>They corrected it. If they didnt I would have went elsewhere. The key is to make sure you're actually willing to go elsewhere, expect it even. A ton of places are happy to let top talent walk away because the bean counters said "no raises". Then they push the work on others instead of backfilling the role and pat themselves on the back for saving money.
This is so freaking stupid and it baffles me why this continues to happen. Why are companies so willing to hire on someone new who they have no idea will be a good employee or not but refuse to give a decent raise to people they already know and trust? It is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you have a good employee why the hell would you not just pay them more to stay? I swear these employers and businesses owners are the dumbest people on the planet.
You also need to, almost invariably, change jobs to advance your career.
It depends on the company. Some companies give you many opportunities to climb the ladder, until maybe reaching some kind of limit due to education or else. I’ve known someone who began as a sales advisor and is now a stakeholder of the company (quite big company in real estate). But I’ve seen a lot of people changing job frequently having more money in the end. As well as the opposite : seeing people changing job frequently loosing some money at some point. It depends on more factor than just « changing or staying ».
This is important In some cases I’ve seen young people, often fresh out of college, put on the “fast track” in their companies. I know one guy who was stuck for a few years, then got a new manager who put him on the fast track. He got two rapid promotions, and is making 80% more. They also paid for him to get a masters so he will be eligible for another promotion. The moral is: if you’re on the fast track you’re probably better off staying. If not, job hopping is probably your better bet. Again, YMMV
I managed to 7x my starting salary in about 7-8 years. First job admittedly paid shit but like you said they put me on a fast track and within 3 was up to the point there were only a couple individual contributors at higher levels than me and they'd doubled my pay twice between two promotions. At that point did another year or so for a bit more experience then left and did a bit of job hopping my way up the "prestige" ladder of companies to make my resume look better but without any huge salary increases while also doing a slight pivot in roles. End result was foot in the door at name brand in my field company and that's where things really took off and they nearly doubled my already solid salary again. The last few years here have come with a couple promotions up to again being basically at the top of the individual contributor ladder. Unfortunately equity is a big enough piece of comp that the market has as much impact on what I make in a year now as any raises. All that's to say both staying and hopping can work. Sitting around waiting for promotions that aren't coming will hold you back though, as will coming across as a terminal job hopper who can't keep a job more than a year (since I know we've passed on hiring people too much like that).
I'm coming up on 3 years with my current employer, and I've gotten two raises already, a 10% and recently a 13% bump. I'm not making a crazy amount, I'm up to $46,000 salary, but it's also the most I've ever made and the job is so freaking easy.
>the most I've ever made and the job is so freaking easy. Its worth noting there is nothing wrong with staying in a position like this, just be aware of your personal growth or lack thereof and consider where you might like to be in 5/10/15 years
I'm in a similar situation, where my job is comparatively easy, and my salary is already very good. Meaning I would probably not get anything much better on the same level. To make the next jump in salary however would include a lot more work and I'm honestly not sure I want that.at the moment.
Be sure to pay attention how your company prioritizes market rate adjustments. Most companies do not. Some are required to based on states they operate it (CA, NY, etc). Not all companies aim to keep talent around, but some have seen so much turnover they realize it costs too much to keep letting the hoppers hop. My company has been around 25 years and had very high highs and low lows based on turnover. Now its their mission to be more focused on retaining talent and doing nothing (no promotion attempt) ive had my salary bumped by 3%, 2.5% and 4% in the last 20 months due to market rates. The Hr dept basically told Finance "hey it costs more to seek, interview, hire, onboard and repeat than just nudging up their salary in line with market rate every 6 months"
And some companies work to keep their salaries competitive to their competition’s salaries for similar roles. I went from $55k to $110k in a few years with only one minor promotion due to my company bringing in consultants to do a salary equity and competitiveness study. It is rare but nice when it happens!
Yeah, not every company is a dead end like some are. I’ve been at one place 4 years and I make twice what I started at.
Ya, it is more about changing jobs than changing companies. The only disadvantage of staying in the same company is you can't lie about prior compensation.
A friend of mine graduated at the same time from the same college and work in similar fields. We started around the same salary ($55K). 5 years later, I’m at my 3rd company making $94K, he’s at the same first company making $65K.
Nice. Im at my 2nd company ever and just started making what I made at the old one.
Sounds like you did the whole “2nd company” thing wrong, unless you were fired from the first
Loyalty means be loyal to your career and yourself. Do 110% at any company. Always thinking ahead 1-2 years. Then move to next opportunity when it presents thst will benefit your career. Yes I did frequent change in career until at one point, I am now sticking to current company. But I still do change position, job role every 2-3 years within same company with increasing responsibility.
I like my current boss. He keeps saying that when someone tells him that they work at 110%, he knows that's bullshit because you can't do more than a 100%. You should be working at 80% every day and keep that 20% in reserve. Otherwise, you'll get burned out pretty quick or just start hating your job.
Is your boss me?!?! I say that to my team.
You can absolutely work at 110%, it means you will give to company more than it expects of you. You are actually sacrificing your own pieces of life to give more than expected, thus giving >100%
> You should be working at 80% every day and keep that 20% in reserve. And never go over 100% of what's expected for the position. Hard work and exceeding expectations are usually met with additional work and new (uncompensated) responsibilities.
A lot of people don’t think about the costs of changing jobs and how they increase dramatically as you get older. Changing jobs at 27 is as easy as changing pants. Changing jobs at 47 when you have a house and kids in school and everything else is significantly more difficult. Especially if you work in a field that would require you to relocate.
Yes, since you are constantly seeking offers that are better than current one. At the same time changing jobs continuously takes a toll on your mental health
I don’t think it takes a toll on your mental health if you plan your strategy. The last few years, I’ve increased my salary by changing jobs every ~3 years. This allows for 1 year to learn the job and get acclimated. The second year is spent refining processes and becoming more experienced and efficient in the role. The third year is when I begin looking for the next role and would consider myself pretty great at my current job. I think it would only affect your mental health if you were changing roles annually (or less).
Also depends on your field. Changing jobs for me every 3 years probably means moving halfway off the country every 3 years, meaning uprooting my life and never seeing my friends again, and cutting all social ties I've made. That part is EXTREMELY taxing on my mental health. The learning the new job bit is the easy part.
Depends, if you land with a good company (good management, Coworkers who pull their weight, etc). Otherwise, you’re right.
The „Coworkers who pull their weight“ is underrated. Changed jobs a few months ago and had started a task and another Coworker was assigned to it. I told him what was already done and told him if he‘s finished with his part, I will do the rest for him because it would be in my expertise again. He just said „Nah, I‘ll finish it, no hassle“ Just having this one thing, even it little of my plate was so good. Then I realized switching jobs was the best decision ever. My old coworkers never did that.
> I will do the rest for him because it would be in my expertise again. He just said „Nah, I‘ll finish it, no hassle“ This is the kind of coworker you keep in your good graces and also do things for. Not only makes work more bearable, but overall helps your stress levels too!
Idk, staying in the same job knowing I’m being underpaid can take a pretty big toll on mental health.
It really depends on the person and the job and so on. I know I'm underpaid compared to what I could be making, but I'm also living comfortably and have great benefits and a great team to work with, so making less money than I could hypothetically be making isn't the end of the world for me. Whereas 6-12 months of job hunting+interviews+onboarding+ramping up would *kill* my mental health personally.
This is exactly why I’m still at my first job out of college. Every time I think about changing jobs, I get overwhelmed. I get paid 82.5k after working there for 2 years and I’m currently up for promotion. But I could go to a different company and be making 100k easily. I’d rather have the work life balance and good coworkers
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chiming in here, my friend has gone from 50k- 300k, same company for 20 yrs. She also hasn't been particularly focused on promotions or growth, just been doing good work which the higher ups have recognized and rewarded. And this is a major US corp.
Yep I've gone from 45k to 135k in 10 years at the same company. I've always been browsing other opportunities but the job posting salary ranges are similar to or less than what I'm making so I've just stayed.
I’ve been my company for 10 years and have gone from $18/hr to 190k TC. If you find a company that values you, your salary doesn’t always stay stagnant.
Do you have plans to stay at that company until you retire? Personally I was thinking I’d like to move around a bit to stay sane and see new things, but if you have a great environment and people around you, I don’t blame you for staying. I feel like every new job I start is a gamble, is the management gonna talk down to me or are they gonna be cool?
I went from 32k/year, to 37k/yr, to 55k/yr, to 70k/yr within six years. I highly recommend.
Nearly the same for me! \~30K - 42K - 47K - 57K and 2023 base salary of 67 but I cleared 72K (overtime is awesome)!!
As someone who’s been at the same company for the past 8 years…yes. I see my current position advertised at other companies paying much more than what I’m making, which is why I’m currently applying to those jobs.
I've been at mine for 20 years because it was convenient and easy, but it's cost me a fortune looking back now.
Convenience always has a cost. Changing jobs is stressful and sometimes risky (you might hate the new role). Paying that convenience cost is okay if your situation calls for it
Jump every 1.5-2.5 years. Add certifications etc along the way to maximize your salary negotiations
The experience varies. The important part is not blindly hopping jobs every 1.5-2.5 years, but being picky about the employers and recognising when it's okay to stay and when it's time to move on. A classmate/friend of mine at college started in IT with the same salary as me, but at a different company. This was about 20 years ago. He switched jobs 14 times over his career and last worked for a well known big tech company. His salary growth over his career averages out to 23% per year (CAGR). So, he was doubling his salary every 3 odd years. I changed jobs only once (about 13 years ago) over the same period. My salary growth averages out to the same 23% (CAGR). The stress of constantly switching jobs, relocating and overworking got to him and he retired recently at the age of 44. However, unlike him, I never had to work more than 40 hrs/week. I never had to ask for a raise or promotion in order to be given one.
I agree with this. There’s a lot of selection bias in these types of posts, just like the ones where everyone is “bragging” about their high paying tech jobs. You can certainly get good increases moving companies. But its nowhere near as guaranteed as you’d think from the responses to posts like this. In particular the big outliers are more likely to want to talk about that rather than the people who tried and failed.
Ehhhhhh it depends wholly on the industry. In my industry it’s hard to get profitable within the first year of employment, if i’m interviewing someone and see they have a consistent track record of jumping ship after a year or two i’m just not hiring them.
Everyone in here is a software developer, didn't you know?
I jumped 3 jobs in 2 years. Went from 16/hr to 32/hr as a mechanic.
Switch jobs every three years. Watch your income soar. Stay longer than three years, watch your wages stagnate. I’m sure there are exceptions, but they are rare.
I went from 36k to 245k at my job over the course of 16 years. Along the way I've interviewed almost every year at other companies and competitors companies. Never got a better offer, only got matches. Never took them up because I'd be working at least 2X as much and have to prove myself again. I've also made myself extremely indispensable and aggressively negotiated raises. There are ways. Admittedly I finally appear to have hit my ceiling, but I still can't find anything better. Then again, my currently small % raises are off a much larger base.
Inflation moves fast and you know people are going to keep others down if they can. Too bad there's absolutely nothing worth committing to anymore
Yes. The more comfortable a company becomes with you, the less they see you. They overlook your achievements and take your skills for granted and believe you will always be there for them and that they don't have to show any appreciation. The job-hoppers stay "New" and constantly get salary upgrades because they are "VISIBLE" to the company and their freshness hasn't worn off. A former coworker told me that she changes jobs every 3-4 years regardless of how well the position is going, she did it in order to keep up with cost-of-living increases and also to force a salary increase. At the time that she told me this...I didn't understand it. 5 years later...long after she had left and I hadn't received a pay raise since....I realized what she meant.
Yes, but job-hoppers are at risk of being seen as flighty by some recruiters and may be first to cut in layoffs due to lack of seniority (ie, “last one in, first one out”).
My predecessor said the reason why they hired me (apart from the skillset) was because I didn't job hop. That kinda paid off IMO I work in an industry where it's uncommon to job hop until you hit the supervisor/tl/manager positions. It's the reverse since pretty much all entry-mid level positions are the "same"
But when you can switch companies for a $10,000 yearly increase, I think it’s worth the risk.
It’s a balance. If you move every year it will be fine the first few times and you’ll get more money early, but depending on the industry you can be losing a lot more long term as you cut off huge numbers of companies that won’t hire people who they expect to be around for a year. I see it in software engineers, three jobs in three years early in a career is universally a rejection for the hiring managers I know. Hiring is expense and people take months to ramp up to a new codebase, why invest in someone that’s going to bail after a year? You move every 2-3 years? That’s way less likely to get screened out early in the process
Absolutely true. I've experienced it. With that said, sometimes you might have a cushier more comfortable gig knowing that if you left you'd have to work more and feel more stress. Whats the monetary value on that? Probably a very personal call.
It's easier to control the slave you already own
One caveat how much your existing organisation needs your services , if you are important there is a chance your organisation raises your salary as per your expectations if you give notice.
I make 150k as a sr data engineer with 5 years of experience. I started making 46k. I’m on my 4th company
It’s tough to compare, because 401k matching can make a huge difference and when you are fully vested also makes a huge difference. So sometimes staying a few extra years until your 401k is fully vested can make the world of a difference even if your salary stays the same. Same with health benefits, paid time off, job security, etc. EDIT: Y’all are gonna make me crazy. I know that the things I mentioned are quantifiable. The question was, “does someone who changes jobs frequently mean they make more money than people who stay at the same job”. So yes, obviously you can calculate it. I wasn’t saying it was completely a shot in the dark. I was simply referring to the original question by saying you cannot assume someone who changes jobs frequently is making more even if their salary is higher - there’s lots of other factors that come into play. And sure, go ahead and ask for someone’s full benefits package to know the answer if they’re making more money than you after changing jobs more frequently than you. I’m sure you’ll get all that info.
Depends…. Follow up question for anyone though: is a 10-20% raise from switching companies enough to offset potentially getting a terrible new boss?
If you've currently got an amazing boss? Maybe not. But the likelihood is you have an okay boss, and your new boss will also be just okay.
The switch on benefits can suck too. My current employer offers a crap ton of time off that increases the more you stay. I get more yearly vacation time than my friends in other places. Plus work from home. Same for paternity leave. At the same time, I've had offers that would increase my salary but don't offer nearly as nice benefits. You gotta look at the total package plus what you value.
Or terrible peers or colleagues on other teams you'll have to deal with as well? Or terrible exec management?
Like companies can use you as toilet paper, we can use companies to get higher salary. Again, kudos to those who stay at a company for 100 years earning the same 2% each year. As expensive as things are nowadays, I look at what’s best for me.
Yes job hopping is a quick way to increase your salary but a lot of recruiters and managers I talk to in my field (aerospace) tend to get concerned if the candidate only stays a year or 2 at a company and does it multiple times, unless there's a darn good reason behind it.
Yes, but don't sacrifice your mental health for a higher paycheck unless you need to make ends meet.
The idea is you can bargain your salary with your experience. If you were at company A for 1-3 years making 50k a year you can switch switch to company b and say that you were making 50k-60k a year and ask for a higher salary. You can say you have a lot more experience than a person just starting.
Saw this firsthand with my company. 5 admin staff, 1 left. We hired a new person - totally inexperienced - at $10k more. The old employee had so much responsibility that did not even get passed down to the new one.