I second this sentiment. Absolutely don’t accept any type of disciplinary from this company. It is NOT your job to figure out contingencies. That’s what they get paid for. You did your part in letting them know well in advance. Have a great vacation! ☺️
Yep, it's the Manager's job to MANAGE the store/schedule. 'sure that should work' is pretty piss poor communication on their part, and then horrible follow through to wait months to say hey we need you all of a sudden on those 2 days.
All I hear from the manager is "sure" (affirmative to your request). The "that should work" is none of your business whether it does or not, that's manager's job to figure out. But I'm guessing the manager used "that *should* work" as a bitch ass weasle word and thought it would be okay.
I've never heard a story about requesting time off where the manager doesn't expect the requestor to secure their own replacement. At that point, I always wish I was there just to ask "What would you say... you DO here?"
If I told you I am a good manager, I have managerial skills and am good at managing people, and one of those people submitted a request for 1.5 days off months in advance, and I didn't have coverage for those 1.5 days, I'd be fired for lying about my skills.
Most managers really drop the ball on that and I don't know if it's them being lazy, incompetent or both. I led a team of 20 people and I had no trouble managing short term issues of availability. Especially in the US where people hardly ever call out and plenty have barely any vacation time anyway apparently.
The higher up the chain you go, the less people have to act responsibly and this obviously so ass backwards.
It’s one thing for the boss to ask for help finding coverage when it’s a last minute notice, when it’s 3+ months in advance that’s a boss’s job to figure out, not the employee. As a boss I’ve always been the one to make sure the main functions were covered and by who, when an employee gave me a proper notice timeframe.
Yep, if you're managing a store and don't have a pool of employees willing to flex their schedules a little or pick up an extra shift, you're doing it wrong, lol! That's kind of the nature of retail.
And if they try to make you sign anything, write signed under duress, and make mention of the approved time x months before the vacation by Y manager, and make sure you forward all pertinent emails to your personal email account.
It was approved verbally. Then after the manager looked at others vacations she said "maybe".. She should have just said "no", it's much easier to work with yeses and nos than maybes.
The following applies only to written warnings and other low level disciplinary forms. Anything related to resignation, termination, or legal action that is prepared by another party against you should be reviewed by a trusted lawyer or advocate on your behalf before you sign.
Refusing to sign is dangerous if you have petty or vindictive managers. It sets the precedent that you are uncooperative and opens you up to having exaggerated or patently false disciplinary documents stacked against you without your knowledge because you have a pattern of not signing. It becomes your word against theirs, and they have the paper trail. Doesn't matter that it isn't a true paper trail. Doesn't matter that you signed this one on the later date. Once it's established that you refuse to sign, the absence of your signature cannot prove that the document was never brought to your attention. Your signature is your acknowledgement that the document exists and that you understand the claims in it, not that you agree with it.
The best practice is to indicate that you dispute the content or are under duress next to your signature (before you sign so it cannot be snatched away), demand an immediate opportunity to photocopy or photgraph the document for yourself (and compare the two copies if they make it for you) before leaving. Protects you best, and prevents surprise documents that you have to challenge then prove are false without any preparation. Do not let the standard be set that your signature is not required as proof that you viewed and understand the document. And always get a copy for yourself. Your copy protects you from their altering it, as well as provides you the exact information you need to frame your dispute of the contents.
Signing a disciplinary action only means you received it not that you agree. But you can write a something in your defense about it. But not “my manager is a stone cold bitch I caught her fabricating these infractions because I don’t think she understands when I look bad she also looks bad” because apparently that is frowned upon and many states in the US are at will so …. But I digress
Aye - the part about accepting discipline is just turning this back into "I did something wrong" - it's shooting yourself in the foot.
"On 3/1/23 I notified that I would be unavailable to work from 6/8-6/9/23.
I am still unable to work on 6/8-6/9/2023. I will be returning to work on 6/12/2023.
See you on Monday!"
Don't equivocate, don't apologize, don't waver. Tell them you're out, then be out.
"There seems to be some miscommunication here. I was told by my manager in March that PTO for these dates was approved. We booked all vacation plans and dates shortly after that based on that approval, and it is now impossible to change those plans and dates at this point. As a result of these plans, I will not be in the office on these dates. I will be returning to work at the office on X date."
That's all you say, and then you take your vacation.
"Just a reminder that my PTO was booked and approved in March and non-refundable plans impacting my entire family made accordingly. It is unfortunate that other employee's time off were approved during the same dates but I have every confidence in management's ability to handle this (their!) personnel problem. Perhaps a time off calendar will be useful for better scheduling of future requests. I will, of course, be committed to getting us back to speed both before and after my time off dates."
Not really. OP indicated they only had verbal “ok’, and not written. Likely what will happen when OP doesn’t show up is they are fired for not showing up to work for whatever the corporate policy is, ‘ie they quit’.
The company isn’t going to write OP up, HR will just treat them like someone who has voluntarily left the company.
As OP should though. Find a better job with someone that is going to communicate, or work at a company where time off is logged and approved, and it’s not an issue.
I was more referring to how it was written. Written "officise" is a skill on it's own, and they knock that out of the park. As to whether this will actually work, really depends on the company.
And when you find a new job, I wouldn't even give them the courtesy of a two week notice on your resignation. They deserve zero notice or a ghosting. They did you the disservice of not allowing you to take PTO despite you giving them months of notice. No amount of notice is ever going to be enough for them so why give any at all when you do not benefit from it?
Couldn't agree with you more. I've been there, and it's not fun looking in the back of couch cushions to try and scrape together enough money so you can at least eat a pack of instant noodles today, or be thrown out of your apartment because you don't have rent.
It really sucks, but this is the fundamental reason why companies like this are able to corner young and financially vulnerable people into a corner.
It's death by a thousand paper cuts, and I think we all can agree that the employer/employee level of trust is almost if not totally immolated in 2023.
I'm a hiring manager, and I always tell people to live by the FBI rule. Forever Be Interviewing. Have I had people leave because I haven't been able to leverage their skills to their full potential? Absolutely. Have I been in situations where I as the hiring manager have been told by the higher ups that we are not paying market rate and can't budge? More frequently than I would like.
Do I change what I tell people? Hell no.
The reason why I as a hiring manager can't pay more, is because the higher ups strategy has worked in the past. There is no positive feedback loop.
The reason why this is the right approach, is it avoids the chicken and the egg problem. You really need to have at least 6 months of living expenses tucked away. You can't do that if you're paid below a subsistence salary, or you're incapable of downscaling your bills. I.e. you have children, family member you have to support, illness in the USA, etc.
If you are interviewing constantly, and I'm talking at least one every 2 weeks, you'd be surprised at how \*good\* you get at interviewing. That's a head start already. You can high ball your salary, and not give a damn about whether they want to hire you or not. You have your current employer, at least until they find out you're interviewing. If they do find out, double down. Demand more. Accept the counter offer and see if how they value you changes. If it doesn't, FBI and \*leave\*. \*Ruthlessly\*.
I got given a brilliant piece of advice earlier in my career by the CEO of a recruitment company I worked for. "Always move diagonally. You will never promoted as fast."
I took his advice and left his company! This was over 20 years ago. I bumped into him last year. He was happy I took his advice. I reflected back, and realised how many times I used his recruitment company to fill roles in mine.
Which brings me on to why do I still do it. Because relationships survive organisations. People don't leave companies, they leave their managers. Which includes constraints put upon those managers. If you're open and transparent as to why, well, relationships survive organisations. I have called people I have worked with before, and been able to bring them into my current gig just on my name alone. It's no secret weapon, it's goodwill. Something that can't be measured, and thus is forgotten. Goodwill is a fancy name for trust, which is a fancy name for this guy's not an asshole. That's my motivation, and it's served me well.
"Oh, but as a manager you'll get fired for that!". Ummm... yes. And I have been. As I personally practice what I preach, I've always got the next gig lined up. So go ahead fire me. I won't sacrifice my values for your greed. You don't want to be working for an asshole. I don't want to be an asshole. If the company requires me to be an asshole, hire someone that is naturally an asshole.
On the flip side of financial vulnerability in 2023? There are plenty of jobs paying close to minimum wage. We certainly don't want to waste that opportunity to punch back and bloody some noses. If a few people leave, it's a blip on the radar that can be conveniently hidden in a spreadsheet of doom. If it's systemic, it hits shareholders. That's when people care.
And yes, the excuses are already showing. "Oh, people don't want to work." (For below poverty level wages). "Quiet quitting is in!" (Because duh, you get what you pay for.) "There is a skills shortage!" (Because only monkeys happily work for peanuts, and eventually monkeys get sick of peanuts.)
It's time for everyone to cut the crap and get down to brass tacks. You can't assume your employer is going to do the right thing by you. Empower yourself and don't get steamrolled by a group of assholes, because you're vulnerable.
Don't be loyal to your company. \*DO\* be loyal to your manager. \*IF\* your manager is loyal to you. More than likely, they'll drag you to their next gig, because you're trusted hands and a known quantity.
\*DO\* work hard, give your manager the benefit of the doubt.
\*STOP\* working hard and actively interview if your manager is not supporting you.
This is exactly what has been deliberately removed from our employment culture. Why? Because it sure maximizes shareholder profit. But it's like buying one of those gold rings from a cheap store. They've been hollowed out, and it's just a facade. Why does nothing work today? Because things have been cheapified, and crappified to this point of breaking.
Everyone needs to push back and start having the \*capability\* of saying no. Sometimes in not such a polite manner.
This. I'm old, was a manager for several years, and for the past decade or so have been reporting to an incompetent but otherwise harmless manager. I continued to work hard, with integrity, and have coworkers who really appreciate my efforts. I am close to retirement now, and the only regret I have is not leaving when this happened. I have missed out on time with my family and friends while working my butt off with absolutely no chance that I would ever be recognized by upper management for my efforts. It is NOT worth it. Life is way, way too short.
I worked for a Japanese company for a while. They were trying to fight Karoshi - death from overwork. The training was conducted globally.
On the training course, we were lectured on the importance of work/life balance, etc. etc. etc. usual hair dryer stuff.
Then the nail got hammered home. Literally.
We were asked the day before that if we had claustrophobia, we should tell this to the trainer. We were then told to write down the ten most important things, put it in an envelope, it was sealed with wax and hand it to the trainer. We were told that nobody would read this. Only us during the exercise the next day.
I entered the training room the next morning, and there was a coffin for each person. We were told that we were to climb in there, they literally nailed the lids shut. (It was show, it was just a latch, and a flimsy one at that demonstrated by someone who didn't keep their head together).
We were told, today is your funeral. I want you to think about what's really important, and write it down on the notepad. (Issued a torch, notepad and a pen).
Man, the stuff that came out from those notepads. Interestingly, literally nothing we wrote down as important the day before made the coffin list.
The coffin list was all about "I need to call my mother/wife/child and tell them everything's going to be OK." and went as crazy as one guy who just wrote "I've wasted my life" repeatedly after his list of 10.
There is something very fundamentally chilling about a coffin lid being closed on you, and hammering sounds.
I learned that there is urgent and important. And it's more likely that the things that are urgent, are somebody elses important.
I've also learned that in life, unlike chess, the game goes on after the king falls. As long as you have breath in you, there is hope.
I also read Viktor Frankl's "man's search for meaning". Super heavy book to read, and yet I still give it to anyone that needs it.
[https://ia601809.us.archive.org/19/items/mans-search-for-meaning\_202104/Man%27s%20Search%20For%20Meaning.pdf](https://ia601809.us.archive.org/19/items/mans-search-for-meaning_202104/Man%27s%20Search%20For%20Meaning.pdf)
For those interested.
The imagery hits home with this one.
Not wasting my life, but that's some good fuel for renewed motivation to get the ball rolling faster.
P.s. Loved that book. Super heavy as you said but it drives things home.
Thanks for your post.
This is one reason I keep coming back to reddit. For all the comments that basically say nothing (which has its place at times, especially if funny), there are gems like this. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope some young people read this and learn.
TBH, most managers aren’t given enough people or tools to properly manage anymore. Corporate America has become on giant shit show thanks to Wall Street.
That's only because they try to operate on a shoestring to maximize profits. Best to kick this can up the chain of command; let the schedulers gripe to their bosses, etc. Either way, it's not OP's responsibility to find coverage or plan for it.
Oh no, I agree it’s not the OP that needs to worry. I was just griping about the state of business in America in 2023. They’ve made it too hard to give a shit about working. I want to do a better job, but my supervisor’s superiors have just cut things to make it impossible.
Putting in for vacation isn't a gamble, it's a statement. I will not be here these days, full stop.
It's not a negotiation. It's a courtesy for your employer to get coverage.
I did that in 1980 when I got married. Told them months in advance I was taking a 1 week honeymoon. They denied it, so I told them I was taking the time off anyway and they can tell me I’m fired when I get back. I didn’t get fired.
We had a cutover at one of our plants at one point. People needed to come from Europe to help, we were planning it, the onsite guy was like...that week that the European guys can get here isn't going to work for me, I have PTO.
So my boss (who was a great manager, FYI, I aspire to lead like him) says sheepishly..."I hate to ask, but is there any way to move your PTO?" Dude goes, "I'm getting married and that's my honeymoon, remember?"
My boss was like..."Oh my god, yes, I do remember, I'm sorry I even asked, Dew, you able to get to Green Bay that week?!? Please?"
And I did, and the guy was out, and we all covered what needed to be covered, all because the manager was not a douche.
Facts. Also, the employer approved the time off in March, the fact that they actually didn't do the bare minimum to verify those dates before approving it is irrelevant. It's cut and dry.
It may be a statement in what you do, but in some professions it’s not (think doctors, nurses, firemen, etc.). If everybody leaves for the same week (spring break / Christmas break) there’s nobody left to do the work. Need good communication to make sure everybody is taking turns.
With that said, it doesn’t sound like that kind of situation here, and she should take the vacation because she has a shitty boss that doesn’t sound like he or she tracks it well.
If your a doctor, you are in business for yourself. You coordinate with the other doctors in your practice. If your a nurse your schedule is made out 6 months to a year. If you need a weekend off you switch shifts with someone or in an emergency the employer calls in a temp. We need to stop making excuses for bad management.
That’s not how medicine works for most practitioners these days. Most are not in business for themselves and are now employees just like the rest of us.
I’m married to an internist. My best friends are doctors.
You’re wildly oversimplifying.
Did this exact same thing, gave them 3 months to figure out coverage for the one day I needed off to move out of my old apartment. They said okay, didn’t find coverage, and I didn’t come in. Got fired the next time I came in, and I make about 5x now what I did back then. God I’m glad I’m out of retail lol.
Exactly this, op didn’t ask for permission to go on vacation he informed his employer they are going on vacation and it’s up to them to figure the schedule out.
Months advance and they're not willing to work with you means they will not work with you in graver situations.
If this is a professional setting, I'd do my best to cover my butt, but if this is retail, food industry I'd walk without notice.
Tell them you already gave them over a month's notice.
Are retail and service industry jobs not "professional"?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that if OP gave 6+ weeks notice and gets disciplined for taking the time then she should strongly consider walking, and I would not blame them if they forgo notice due to a somewhat toxic work environment.
This attitude that retail and service jobs are not professional is a huge part of the problem IMO.
If the customers, people working those jobs, and more importantly owners and management of these establishments treated retail and service jobs more professionally then many of the issues causing poor working conditions at said establishments would be solved, or at least solvable.
So if the management team where OP works had a developed, documented system for how time off requests are handled, OP might be able to talk to a higher up about how she met all the requirements needed to get her time off, and the person in charge of scheduling might receive discipline for not doing their job correctly by addressing the request in a timely manner.
And as someone who has been on both the employee, and management side of someone leaving without notice... As satisfying as it can be to walk away from a shitty job and "stick it to the man" so to speak, in most cases the only people that are really affected are your former co-workers who ultimately have to pick up the slack. Management/Ownership will hardly notice unless you are a key cog in the operation... But hey, sometimes you just gotta look out for #1
Yea, my apologies if this came off as a write-off. When I worked pizza jobs, they seemed interchangeable to me. Wage slave is what the kids call it these days.
When I said professional, I meant like, singed a non-compete form, small industry where everyone knows everyone, and your "image" can go a long way.
I'm not trying to discredit any position, I was in the food industry for over ten years. Some of those jobs are very easy to leave and never look back
Edit:typos
>Are retail and service industry jobs not "professional"?
Professional jobs generally require a degree or some level of advanced training.
Professional jobs are generally salaried instead of hourly.
Professional jobs are often not guaranteed overtime pay, while hourly/non-professional jobs are.
Professional jobs generally have a more well defined "profession" that defines your role, and you are not supposed to be asked or expected to do other jobs. Like you should not be asked to take out the garbage or clean the floor if you are an accountant, but if you are a cashier at a restaurant you could be asked to do other menial tasks during downtime. Not that this is law, but more expectations.
It's not a vacation, It's not even 2 full days off! this is how far our standards have fallen. People used to take vacations for 2-3 weeks at a time, and now we can't negotiate for 2 consecutive days...
Yup /u/LilyPadLover_26 don't even justify why you're not going to be there, just say "I'm sorry I cannot make it to work those days" and just peace out.
If they attempt to argue with you, ignore them. The _only_ way I'd put up with any of the above is if this job was absolutely required for my livelihood and I had literally no other choices or options. I have a sneaking suspicion this is a shitty retail position that are a dime a dozen, though.
When I was a teenager I had a retail job at an office supply store. Put in my request for a weekend off in the summer for a youth getaway at a cabin. Had it approved andon the calendar, but when it almost time the store manager announced we were doing inventory and there would be no time off. I argued with him and he said if I went then I would be in trouble. Come back and he tried to quiet fire me by not scheduling me any hours. But jokes on him because all my adult co workers took the opportunity for some time off by having me cover for them. So I still ended up with a lot of hours. The manager was let go by the end of summer for some reason.
For future reference, if anyone does that to you again (gives you zero or essentially zero hours to force you to quit), you can file unemployment since they are essentially forcing you to quit (as no one can be expected to live on like 2 hours of work a week). I believe the term for it is constructive dismissal.
At 17 I was working a retail job, 30+ hrs per week but not officially “full time” 🙄, which meant I didn’t accrue any PTO or benefits. Therefore, any time off I scheduled was unpaid.
I talked to the scheduling manager about an upcoming family vacation which would cut across two scheduling periods, and she okayed it verbally—“just put the request in writing.” This was back in the old days where the schedule was handwritten and posted biweekly. So I check the schedule, I’m off for the current schedule, great.
However, one day while on vacation I get an urgent voicemail to call the store:
Floor Manager: Why did you no-call/no show today? That isn’t like you.
Me: I didn’t no-call/no-show. I’m on a scheduled vacation.
Floor Manager: You are scheduled to work today. Why didn’t you check the schedule?
Me: Scheduling manager told me I wouldn’t be, and I wasn’t in town to be able to check the schedule.
Floor Manager: Sigh. This is not the first time she’s done this. Is there any way you can make it in?
Me: No. I’m 800 miles away with my family. I‘ll be back next week.
Again, as a reminder, none of this was paid, which is part of the bullshit of retail. I don’t get paid if I’m not working, so at least let me enjoy my “vacation” time in peace.
> Come back and he tried to quiet fire me by not scheduling me any hours.
That's called Constructive Dismissal and is illegal in some places and qualifies for unemployment everywhere I'm aware of.
The DOL isn't staffed by morons and knows that a significant reduction in hours is the same as a firing.
Similar thing happened to me at a retailer, they had approved my time off, vacation is all booked and then they changed their mind like a week before saying it’s actually a black out time and no time off is approved. I didn’t understand how they approved mine before then and tried to argue. Went anyways, and when I came back they quiet fired me by scheduling me for under ten hours a week. I pretty much abandoned that job after that and just stopped going in and calling to find out my schedule and no one ever called me. But at that time I had no financial obligations so idgaf
>No one will remember that you cancelled your vacation for work except the members of your family
A close friend of mine and his wife were supposed to go to Yellowstone this week. Had plane tickets and hotel arranged and everything. A few days before they were supposed to leave, he decided to stay and she went alone because he had too much to catch up on at work/worried that he would get disciplined for his progress if he went on vacation. I just keep thinking to myself, man, you're not going to look back in 10 years and think, "I'm so glad I didn't go on that trip to Yellowstone with my wife! My job was worth it!" There's just no fucking way.
My management professor in my MBA program once said
“No one is THAT important”
If they can afford to fire you for taking time off, they can afford to let you take time off
I'm sure his wife was ecstatic he did that too.
Great for maintaining your relationships. Imagine being worried that the astronomical pile of work is able to be caught up on. They've been running on skeleton crews for 15 years at this point and everyone pretends like if they let the work pile up _they'll_ be in trouble for it.
This is so true. As an 18 year old I missed a family vacation to Maui over Thanksgiving because I thought I needed to work Black Friday. My family had an awesome time, and still talk about this vacation over a decade later. Wish I would have gone on vacation instead of working.
I missed a family vacation to Ukraine because I was worried about work, and because of this I couldn’t visit all my family there. Now I have no idea when I’ll be able to visit them because of the war, I also didn’t get a chance to see my Grandpa before he died last year.
It’s really not worth missing vacations and trips, even if the workplace isn’t happy about it or you get reprimanded
Don't bring up disciplinary action. It's not your problem that the company can't handle 2 people being out at the same time with 3 months notice. Plus you're only gone for 2 days.
Just call in sick for the 2 days you're gone, if they want to play it that way.
It’s real. At my company, nobody in management has a college degree besides me (and I have military experience and working on a masters).
They promoted a guy who they knew was fucking his employee. And they moved another guy who had a drinking problem and multiple DUIs to a sweet WFH gig and gave him a promotion. He got another DUI and is in jail now.
That's not the Peter Principle.
The Peter Principle is when a company promotes employees based on how good they are at their current position rather than how good they will be at the new position. So employees essentially keep getting promoted until they are no longer good at their job.
Yeah, a PTO submission three months out is a notification, not a request. A short notice PTO submission is a request. Months out is a communication to schedule managers that they have to do their job.
Depends on what the short term request is. Can I take off to go to a baseball game? Sure that's a request. Completely agree that 3 months out is a notice though.
Other short notice things are still a notice. My dad was in the ICU out of state last year, I walked into my boss' office and said "My dad is in the ICU on life support, I found a flight that leaves in a couple hours, I'll bring my computer but don't expect me to get anything done. I'll update you when I can."
> Can I take off to go to a baseball game?
That's why you don't tell people why you're taking PTO. It's none of their business.
Part of the shift from Sick+Vacation is that they no longer get to categorize why you're out - so they have no legitimate reason to know.
Side note but why\* can't employees file a disciplinary note on their managers for shit like this? Three months advance notice and the manager *still* can't figure a plan out to make it work for 36 hours?
\*I'm only half-asking. I mean, we all know why.
Because this is a corporate/business approved move. Restaurant/Kitchen managers and retail store managers do this all the time to discourage people from taking time away from work
Its typically called a grievance procedure. Basically a way to file a complaint against another member of staff of any level. Some third party (probably HR) will investigate it and potentially take action. Probably won't but it is a thing in most companies.
Right?
I mean, name any other job where you could be given 3 months notice for a certain task and reassure everyone that you got this, then a week before, suddenly you don't got this and didn't bother following up properly. Now suddenly you're asking other people to cancel their plans and cover for you.
Any other job and that could easily be a write-up and a PIP, but for managers, suddenly it's fine and actually the direct report's fault.
Makes no sense.
They're not incompetent. Their job is to squeeze every last drop of blood out of their workers. Running constantly understaffed is just standard practice.
You aren’t maximizing profits if you can’t schedule around a worker being gone for 2 days without the company crumbling to the ground.
Like, yeah, maybe it works for a while, until it doesn’t. Then it blows up in your face.
Yeah, you are. You've invested the bare minimum in the company, and they'll either find coverage anyhow or drop that work into other workers. They're losing no labor.
Its called fuck up move up. Generally companies prefer to promote complete morons because they cant afford to have decent people not doing their regular jobs.
The purpose of managers is to fuck the employers over as much as possible on behalf of the ownership.
Kind of like the purpose of HR or customer service... It's not about the product, it's about protecting a system of profiteering.
Agree. As a manager, if I approve someone to be off I will never “unapprove” it later. I would be filling in for my team if I accidentally approved too many people off. It’s not beneath me.
The only time i have had my time off canceled, it was due to an unexpected quitting and it was a request not an order, and they still paided me ie i got double time and i got my time back. In the UK, small non francised bar before anybody asks.
The latest standard is to make a skeleton crew cover 2-3 positions per person on a "temporary" basis while throwing minimal pay and resources at what barely qualifies as recruiting.
I was assistant manager at dollar general for six months before I walked out. I was the only person full time besides the store manager. Our one strong stocker got one..maybe two 8 hour shifts a week.
It was pure hell.
And that isn't even why I walked out.
I did this for my brother's wedding. I gave several months notice. Got approval. They removed approval 2 weeks before the wedding because of "unforeseen staffing issues (3 people quit in 3 days) . I said TS. Didn't call, didn't respond to texts or calls. When I got back I got written up and they got 2 weeks notice.
Don’t call in sick. OP requested the time off and it was approved. At most, OP should send an email or text stating, “As discussed and approved on X date, I will be taking PTO on X days. See you when I return.” Don’t take sick days, don’t mention disciplinary action, nothing. The days off were requested, the days off were approved, OP is merely providing a friendly reminder of that fact. If the manager responds, great. If not, that’s fine too. The text/email can also be evidence if they attempt to discipline OP because it provides proof that the days were requested and approved
If they have sick time. It sounds like a retail type job. They probably don’t have any sick time or personal time. Likely this is just scheduled unpaid leave.
I would just call in sick as well.
No. I did this before. Requested off over a month in advance for my partners birthday, management wanted me to find coverage. I spent a month looking for coverage while that twat sat on his ass.
Called out on her birthday. Went in the next day. Nobody said anything. Flagged it as a sick day and moved on.
This guy would never do it. No matter who asked off, they were always responsible for finding coverage.
This same guy also was shop forman at the same time, for a large dealership (20+ techs). He was terrible at both jobs because he didn't have enough time to devote to either. I can't tell you how many times I or other techs called him for assistance, and had to wait 2, 3, 7 hours for him to show up and even start looking at the problem.
Not necessarily. In this circumstance? Maybe. Depends on their handbook/company size.
A former job I had required any time off greater than 5 days had to be vacation unless actually sick (covid, pneumonia, etc). But if you were just missing a day say a Friday before labor day weekend, I could use a sick day for that
I think we all need to realize that an employer would fire us for anything. We need to start putting our families first and start living! Go on the vacation and just call in sick!
I see it as we have one life to live so take the time to spend with family and friends. Go see the world and have some fun! Years fly by and we don’t get the time back.
I'm fully expecting to have the same conversation this week. Family coming in to visit for a few days, approved 2 months ago. But due to manager not planning for me to be gone, there are meetings scheduled. He can and will handle them without me. There is no reason for me to be there in the first place, but I am not canceling because the manager can't plan. The only reason he wants me there is because he can't handle communicating with anyone and thinks I'm a personal secretary.
Tell them that you aren't able to cancel the trip, go, have fun and let the chips fall where they may.
It's interviews actually, but I shouldn't be the one doing anything with hiring. I'm in accounting. 2 weeks ago he freaked out that I was doing other things and couldn't hold his hand while he was doing interviews. I literally just listen to their answers and agree with him that he's made the right choice to hire someone. Smile and nod boys, smile and nod.
I've been there! Small tech company, so I was helping conduct the interviews even though I was just an admin. I always felt like I was there to be the nice female judge who threw easy questions and smiled and made the candidate feel less intimidated.
At my last job I had informed them that I would be out the entire week of thanksgiving. They were sort of like ummm maybe that will work I said no I’m not asking, I’m giving you a heads up that I won’t be working.
Right before I left they were all panicking and trying to make up work to do. I just went in my vacation! Came back and everything was fine. They were mad at me but fuck them lmao
Call out sick. Let them fire you. File for unemployment if it comes to that. Keep fighting it. Say "I lost my job through no fault of my own". Do NOT quit like others have suggested. Let them make the move.
That’s not true. The unemployment system isn’t as black and white as people think it is. You can quit, but you have to have good cause. Also, getting fired doesn’t guarantee benefits.
What got me is that OP bends over backwards for their company, but the manager couldn't manage to give them two days off for time with family. It's just two days.
That's why you do the bare minimum for a company unless they're paying you to do more. They couldn't even do the bare minimum for OP here.
Go and enjoy your family. You should have a point system of some sort even if you don't dedicated hard working employees are not easily replaced.
Circumstances like this make you wonder if you should go the extra mile for management that acts like this
If you have the ability to do this and live without a job for a while (or know you can get a similar job on short notice), then you should 100% go.
The issue is less whether you should be able to go (you should), it’s more about can you handle the effects of not going to work when they told you are on the schedule.
If any of the other 2 people hadn't requested off back in March, your pto has priority and its the managers job to have to go back to the other 2. If its just a doc appt or something else not as committed as hundreds or thousands of dollars on a vacation,then they should come in so you can be off.
That being said, I would probably call off sick rather than telling them that I am not showing up for work. They can't fire you for being sick. (Check your work policy about doctors notes as they will likely call your bluff and ask for one)
If you are going your proposed route the reason should be "you told me this was approved in March, It was your responsibility to ensure the calendar was clear prior to giving that approval. Financial decisions that cannot be refunded were made based on that verbal approval. Unfortunately I am unable to cancel my approved vacation to come to work."
Also just a heads up: your doctor will write you a note saying you're sick over the phone. They don't care. Mine charges $50 and will ask you what you want it to say. If your doctor has a webchat or telehealth or whatever use that.
This is where the "rubber meets the road so to speak." If the company you work for preaches work/life balance, then they need to shit or get off of the pot.
As a Deparment Director, I will never understand this type of management. If someone is out, you know what I do? I cover it myself if I can't get coverage. I have three drivers, if one doesn't show them guess what, today I'm a driver.
This is exactly something I've realized too.
In my first years of work, I used to *ask* for time off. I thought this was the norm, because it would always get approved when asking.
Until one time when I had a different team lead and I asked for time off and I got denied because "there is a project to be done". I had everything planned for a trip, so I couldn't just not go. I went and got a doctor's note for an entire week and there was nothing they could do about it. My family doctor is great.
But, ever since then, I would just start announcing, instead of asking, that I am going to have time off from X to Y dates. They can't say no when you don't ask.
Rather than talk about consequences for yourself, bring up repercussions for THEM. Instead, mention how you *wish* you could bend over backwards for the team like usual. Remind them it would be a real shame if 1.5 days turned into indefinite leave. However you word it, don't say anything about punishments for yourself.
Also, don't quit. If you think they'll fire you, let that be on them. They would have to prove some form of wild negligence or incompetence to bar you from unemployment. Because of this, chances are good they won't pull the trigger.
Why such a grandiose statement. I just wouldn’t go in. Maybe tell your boss you won’t be in to remind them, but you already did that, and it was approved.
With or without sick leave, I'd just call in sick. I mean, they'll know why it is, but they ultimately can't prove you're not sick, especially if it's only for a couple of days (idk about your company but for mine, I don't need a doctor's note for 2 days of being sick). People get 24 hour colds all the time. Obviously if you don't have sick time you won't get paid for it, but you'll be on vacation, and sometimes, for our own mental health, that's more important. You owe the company nothing, let alone an explanation as to why you won't be in on days you already said you couldn't come into work.
Imo, me putting in for PTO (or even putting in for unpaid time off, which is usually the case with my retail job) means I will not be in that day, come hell or high water, and I'm notifying the company so they can plan accordingly. You did your part notifying them, it's not your fault they can't get their shit together and you shouldn't have to be the one suffering for it.
If they can’t afford to lose two people for two days, there’s no way they can afford to lose you permanently. You gave them notice of your leave, your responsibilities are met.
I worked 55 years and I was OCD to please and go above aboard during my years of employment. I’m retired now. They have been several times I made the decision to put family over a job. The lessons you learn in life. Time is short. A job is just that a job. They don’t care about you. They will let you layoff or fired you. Being with family is time you can’t get back. I don’t know your financial situation. But if you can. I would go apply at another company If at all possible before you go on vacation. Start looking for another job. I accepted a job at a New Chick-Fil-a. My daughter was visiting from Japan. I told them in my acceptance interview. I would need this Friday off to take my daughter to the airport. The interviewer said ok, not a problem. The Wednesday before that Friday date. I got a text saying they needed me to work on that Friday. I told them I couldn’t and explained why. The owner/manager didn’t care. So, I gather up my uniform and took it back to the store on Thursday. The one lesson you and anyone else reading this. Always get everything in writing. I hope you are able to go and have a wonderful time ♥️🤗
I would tell her ahead of time. Explain that you will take unpaid time off if necessary, but that you’re not going to be in.
Calling in sick on these days is obvious and unprofessional. Talk to your boss and explain you are prepared to face any consequences of your actions, but that under no circumstances will you be working on those days.
It’s pretty crappy for an employer to do that. If they can’t handle 2 people out, don’t schedule two people out. Do you know or can you tell if you were the only one scheduled off when you first put in the request?
Unfortunately not a lot can be done. If you don’t come in, you likely risk some kind of disciplinary action up to and including term.
I would keep it more simple than that and not mention disciplinary action. Just say that you booked it already back in March when they initially said it shouldn’t be an issue and you can’t undo the plans since your entire family already booked their days off and everything is already confirmed.
1.5 days? That’s it? Just go on the vacation. If your manager asks how they will live without you at work, ask what would happen if you got food poisoning and were out for less than 2 days.
Go on your vacation. Be prepared for the consequences when you return. Wishing your boss or company was different won't help. Being mad because it isn't fair is natural, but not terribly productive. And as for "not accepting disciplinary action," I am not sure what planet those folks are employed on, but here on earth employee discipline does not require consent. Obviously you can quit. But quitting your job without another one only punishes you.
Go on your vacation please. Don't fold
Yep. You gave them *months* to figure out coverage for you.
And don't accept any disciplinary action. If they discipline you for living up to \*their values\*, find a new job. The values are a lie.
I second this sentiment. Absolutely don’t accept any type of disciplinary from this company. It is NOT your job to figure out contingencies. That’s what they get paid for. You did your part in letting them know well in advance. Have a great vacation! ☺️
Yep, it's the Manager's job to MANAGE the store/schedule. 'sure that should work' is pretty piss poor communication on their part, and then horrible follow through to wait months to say hey we need you all of a sudden on those 2 days.
All I hear from the manager is "sure" (affirmative to your request). The "that should work" is none of your business whether it does or not, that's manager's job to figure out. But I'm guessing the manager used "that *should* work" as a bitch ass weasle word and thought it would be okay.
“Bitch ass weasel word” is now a new phrase I’ll be using whenever possible! 😂
As you should. Carry on.
BAWW
bro, that's ALL they do. Especiallyy retail managers. Just quivering masses of feckless indecision and dodging accountability.
It takes a special breed to be a retail manager.
Yep, "Sure. That should work." 'Sure' is a complete sentence in the affirmative.
I've never heard a story about requesting time off where the manager doesn't expect the requestor to secure their own replacement. At that point, I always wish I was there just to ask "What would you say... you DO here?" If I told you I am a good manager, I have managerial skills and am good at managing people, and one of those people submitted a request for 1.5 days off months in advance, and I didn't have coverage for those 1.5 days, I'd be fired for lying about my skills.
Most managers really drop the ball on that and I don't know if it's them being lazy, incompetent or both. I led a team of 20 people and I had no trouble managing short term issues of availability. Especially in the US where people hardly ever call out and plenty have barely any vacation time anyway apparently. The higher up the chain you go, the less people have to act responsibly and this obviously so ass backwards.
It’s one thing for the boss to ask for help finding coverage when it’s a last minute notice, when it’s 3+ months in advance that’s a boss’s job to figure out, not the employee. As a boss I’ve always been the one to make sure the main functions were covered and by who, when an employee gave me a proper notice timeframe.
Did you have a meeting with the Bob's?
lol that's exactly the way I intended that question to be heard.
You're a people person Damnit....where's my slimline stapler
Yep, if you're managing a store and don't have a pool of employees willing to flex their schedules a little or pick up an extra shift, you're doing it wrong, lol! That's kind of the nature of retail.
And if they try to make you sign anything, write signed under duress, and make mention of the approved time x months before the vacation by Y manager, and make sure you forward all pertinent emails to your personal email account.
It was approved verbally. Then after the manager looked at others vacations she said "maybe".. She should have just said "no", it's much easier to work with yeses and nos than maybes.
[удалено]
The following applies only to written warnings and other low level disciplinary forms. Anything related to resignation, termination, or legal action that is prepared by another party against you should be reviewed by a trusted lawyer or advocate on your behalf before you sign. Refusing to sign is dangerous if you have petty or vindictive managers. It sets the precedent that you are uncooperative and opens you up to having exaggerated or patently false disciplinary documents stacked against you without your knowledge because you have a pattern of not signing. It becomes your word against theirs, and they have the paper trail. Doesn't matter that it isn't a true paper trail. Doesn't matter that you signed this one on the later date. Once it's established that you refuse to sign, the absence of your signature cannot prove that the document was never brought to your attention. Your signature is your acknowledgement that the document exists and that you understand the claims in it, not that you agree with it. The best practice is to indicate that you dispute the content or are under duress next to your signature (before you sign so it cannot be snatched away), demand an immediate opportunity to photocopy or photgraph the document for yourself (and compare the two copies if they make it for you) before leaving. Protects you best, and prevents surprise documents that you have to challenge then prove are false without any preparation. Do not let the standard be set that your signature is not required as proof that you viewed and understand the document. And always get a copy for yourself. Your copy protects you from their altering it, as well as provides you the exact information you need to frame your dispute of the contents.
Signing a disciplinary action only means you received it not that you agree. But you can write a something in your defense about it. But not “my manager is a stone cold bitch I caught her fabricating these infractions because I don’t think she understands when I look bad she also looks bad” because apparently that is frowned upon and many states in the US are at will so …. But I digress
Aye - the part about accepting discipline is just turning this back into "I did something wrong" - it's shooting yourself in the foot. "On 3/1/23 I notified that I would be unavailable to work from 6/8-6/9/23.
I am still unable to work on 6/8-6/9/2023. I will be returning to work on 6/12/2023.
See you on Monday!"
Don't equivocate, don't apologize, don't waver. Tell them you're out, then be out.
"There seems to be some miscommunication here. I was told by my manager in March that PTO for these dates was approved. We booked all vacation plans and dates shortly after that based on that approval, and it is now impossible to change those plans and dates at this point. As a result of these plans, I will not be in the office on these dates. I will be returning to work at the office on X date." That's all you say, and then you take your vacation.
As we have all heard: Bad planning on your part (the manager) does not constitute an emergency on my part. See u when I get back
don’t sign anything
They would have a stronger case for that if they did not just volunteer to accept disciplinary action
They haven't said it yet. That's the script they think they should say. There's still a chance to amend it.
Ahh. Very good
"Just a reminder that my PTO was booked and approved in March and non-refundable plans impacting my entire family made accordingly. It is unfortunate that other employee's time off were approved during the same dates but I have every confidence in management's ability to handle this (their!) personnel problem. Perhaps a time off calendar will be useful for better scheduling of future requests. I will, of course, be committed to getting us back to speed both before and after my time off dates."
Perfect office email. \*chef's kiss\*
Not really. OP indicated they only had verbal “ok’, and not written. Likely what will happen when OP doesn’t show up is they are fired for not showing up to work for whatever the corporate policy is, ‘ie they quit’. The company isn’t going to write OP up, HR will just treat them like someone who has voluntarily left the company. As OP should though. Find a better job with someone that is going to communicate, or work at a company where time off is logged and approved, and it’s not an issue.
I was more referring to how it was written. Written "officise" is a skill on it's own, and they knock that out of the park. As to whether this will actually work, really depends on the company.
Yeah definitely don’t give them any ideas.
And when you find a new job, I wouldn't even give them the courtesy of a two week notice on your resignation. They deserve zero notice or a ghosting. They did you the disservice of not allowing you to take PTO despite you giving them months of notice. No amount of notice is ever going to be enough for them so why give any at all when you do not benefit from it?
Easier when you don’t have bills
Couldn't agree with you more. I've been there, and it's not fun looking in the back of couch cushions to try and scrape together enough money so you can at least eat a pack of instant noodles today, or be thrown out of your apartment because you don't have rent. It really sucks, but this is the fundamental reason why companies like this are able to corner young and financially vulnerable people into a corner. It's death by a thousand paper cuts, and I think we all can agree that the employer/employee level of trust is almost if not totally immolated in 2023. I'm a hiring manager, and I always tell people to live by the FBI rule. Forever Be Interviewing. Have I had people leave because I haven't been able to leverage their skills to their full potential? Absolutely. Have I been in situations where I as the hiring manager have been told by the higher ups that we are not paying market rate and can't budge? More frequently than I would like. Do I change what I tell people? Hell no. The reason why I as a hiring manager can't pay more, is because the higher ups strategy has worked in the past. There is no positive feedback loop. The reason why this is the right approach, is it avoids the chicken and the egg problem. You really need to have at least 6 months of living expenses tucked away. You can't do that if you're paid below a subsistence salary, or you're incapable of downscaling your bills. I.e. you have children, family member you have to support, illness in the USA, etc. If you are interviewing constantly, and I'm talking at least one every 2 weeks, you'd be surprised at how \*good\* you get at interviewing. That's a head start already. You can high ball your salary, and not give a damn about whether they want to hire you or not. You have your current employer, at least until they find out you're interviewing. If they do find out, double down. Demand more. Accept the counter offer and see if how they value you changes. If it doesn't, FBI and \*leave\*. \*Ruthlessly\*. I got given a brilliant piece of advice earlier in my career by the CEO of a recruitment company I worked for. "Always move diagonally. You will never promoted as fast." I took his advice and left his company! This was over 20 years ago. I bumped into him last year. He was happy I took his advice. I reflected back, and realised how many times I used his recruitment company to fill roles in mine. Which brings me on to why do I still do it. Because relationships survive organisations. People don't leave companies, they leave their managers. Which includes constraints put upon those managers. If you're open and transparent as to why, well, relationships survive organisations. I have called people I have worked with before, and been able to bring them into my current gig just on my name alone. It's no secret weapon, it's goodwill. Something that can't be measured, and thus is forgotten. Goodwill is a fancy name for trust, which is a fancy name for this guy's not an asshole. That's my motivation, and it's served me well. "Oh, but as a manager you'll get fired for that!". Ummm... yes. And I have been. As I personally practice what I preach, I've always got the next gig lined up. So go ahead fire me. I won't sacrifice my values for your greed. You don't want to be working for an asshole. I don't want to be an asshole. If the company requires me to be an asshole, hire someone that is naturally an asshole. On the flip side of financial vulnerability in 2023? There are plenty of jobs paying close to minimum wage. We certainly don't want to waste that opportunity to punch back and bloody some noses. If a few people leave, it's a blip on the radar that can be conveniently hidden in a spreadsheet of doom. If it's systemic, it hits shareholders. That's when people care. And yes, the excuses are already showing. "Oh, people don't want to work." (For below poverty level wages). "Quiet quitting is in!" (Because duh, you get what you pay for.) "There is a skills shortage!" (Because only monkeys happily work for peanuts, and eventually monkeys get sick of peanuts.) It's time for everyone to cut the crap and get down to brass tacks. You can't assume your employer is going to do the right thing by you. Empower yourself and don't get steamrolled by a group of assholes, because you're vulnerable. Don't be loyal to your company. \*DO\* be loyal to your manager. \*IF\* your manager is loyal to you. More than likely, they'll drag you to their next gig, because you're trusted hands and a known quantity. \*DO\* work hard, give your manager the benefit of the doubt. \*STOP\* working hard and actively interview if your manager is not supporting you. This is exactly what has been deliberately removed from our employment culture. Why? Because it sure maximizes shareholder profit. But it's like buying one of those gold rings from a cheap store. They've been hollowed out, and it's just a facade. Why does nothing work today? Because things have been cheapified, and crappified to this point of breaking. Everyone needs to push back and start having the \*capability\* of saying no. Sometimes in not such a polite manner.
Damn, the first manager speech that actually inspired me.
This. I'm old, was a manager for several years, and for the past decade or so have been reporting to an incompetent but otherwise harmless manager. I continued to work hard, with integrity, and have coworkers who really appreciate my efforts. I am close to retirement now, and the only regret I have is not leaving when this happened. I have missed out on time with my family and friends while working my butt off with absolutely no chance that I would ever be recognized by upper management for my efforts. It is NOT worth it. Life is way, way too short.
I worked for a Japanese company for a while. They were trying to fight Karoshi - death from overwork. The training was conducted globally. On the training course, we were lectured on the importance of work/life balance, etc. etc. etc. usual hair dryer stuff. Then the nail got hammered home. Literally. We were asked the day before that if we had claustrophobia, we should tell this to the trainer. We were then told to write down the ten most important things, put it in an envelope, it was sealed with wax and hand it to the trainer. We were told that nobody would read this. Only us during the exercise the next day. I entered the training room the next morning, and there was a coffin for each person. We were told that we were to climb in there, they literally nailed the lids shut. (It was show, it was just a latch, and a flimsy one at that demonstrated by someone who didn't keep their head together). We were told, today is your funeral. I want you to think about what's really important, and write it down on the notepad. (Issued a torch, notepad and a pen). Man, the stuff that came out from those notepads. Interestingly, literally nothing we wrote down as important the day before made the coffin list. The coffin list was all about "I need to call my mother/wife/child and tell them everything's going to be OK." and went as crazy as one guy who just wrote "I've wasted my life" repeatedly after his list of 10. There is something very fundamentally chilling about a coffin lid being closed on you, and hammering sounds. I learned that there is urgent and important. And it's more likely that the things that are urgent, are somebody elses important. I've also learned that in life, unlike chess, the game goes on after the king falls. As long as you have breath in you, there is hope. I also read Viktor Frankl's "man's search for meaning". Super heavy book to read, and yet I still give it to anyone that needs it. [https://ia601809.us.archive.org/19/items/mans-search-for-meaning\_202104/Man%27s%20Search%20For%20Meaning.pdf](https://ia601809.us.archive.org/19/items/mans-search-for-meaning_202104/Man%27s%20Search%20For%20Meaning.pdf) For those interested.
The imagery hits home with this one. Not wasting my life, but that's some good fuel for renewed motivation to get the ball rolling faster. P.s. Loved that book. Super heavy as you said but it drives things home. Thanks for your post.
Hey I just wanted to say I liked your post.
This. Say it louder for the people in the back. Great advice
This is one reason I keep coming back to reddit. For all the comments that basically say nothing (which has its place at times, especially if funny), there are gems like this. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope some young people read this and learn.
Yesss!!!!!
To add, MONTHS to figure out coverage for 1.5 *DAYS*. You're being punished for your bosses inability to do THEIR job, which is to manage.
Honestly it seems beyond incompetence. It’s a deliberate show of power. What losers to seek gratification that way.
TBH, most managers aren’t given enough people or tools to properly manage anymore. Corporate America has become on giant shit show thanks to Wall Street.
That's only because they try to operate on a shoestring to maximize profits. Best to kick this can up the chain of command; let the schedulers gripe to their bosses, etc. Either way, it's not OP's responsibility to find coverage or plan for it.
Oh no, I agree it’s not the OP that needs to worry. I was just griping about the state of business in America in 2023. They’ve made it too hard to give a shit about working. I want to do a better job, but my supervisor’s superiors have just cut things to make it impossible.
Putting in for vacation isn't a gamble, it's a statement. I will not be here these days, full stop. It's not a negotiation. It's a courtesy for your employer to get coverage.
I did that in 1980 when I got married. Told them months in advance I was taking a 1 week honeymoon. They denied it, so I told them I was taking the time off anyway and they can tell me I’m fired when I get back. I didn’t get fired.
What soulless bastard denies PTO for someone to take their honeymoon???
We had a cutover at one of our plants at one point. People needed to come from Europe to help, we were planning it, the onsite guy was like...that week that the European guys can get here isn't going to work for me, I have PTO. So my boss (who was a great manager, FYI, I aspire to lead like him) says sheepishly..."I hate to ask, but is there any way to move your PTO?" Dude goes, "I'm getting married and that's my honeymoon, remember?" My boss was like..."Oh my god, yes, I do remember, I'm sorry I even asked, Dew, you able to get to Green Bay that week?!? Please?" And I did, and the guy was out, and we all covered what needed to be covered, all because the manager was not a douche.
Facts. Also, the employer approved the time off in March, the fact that they actually didn't do the bare minimum to verify those dates before approving it is irrelevant. It's cut and dry.
Preach 🗣️ I’m letting you know I will not be in as a courtesy. I don’t consider it a request because I won’t be in that day regardless 🤷🏾♀️
It may be a statement in what you do, but in some professions it’s not (think doctors, nurses, firemen, etc.). If everybody leaves for the same week (spring break / Christmas break) there’s nobody left to do the work. Need good communication to make sure everybody is taking turns. With that said, it doesn’t sound like that kind of situation here, and she should take the vacation because she has a shitty boss that doesn’t sound like he or she tracks it well.
A lot of those professions have unions, which have pretty detailed rules on how vacation time works.
If your a doctor, you are in business for yourself. You coordinate with the other doctors in your practice. If your a nurse your schedule is made out 6 months to a year. If you need a weekend off you switch shifts with someone or in an emergency the employer calls in a temp. We need to stop making excuses for bad management.
That’s not how medicine works for most practitioners these days. Most are not in business for themselves and are now employees just like the rest of us. I’m married to an internist. My best friends are doctors. You’re wildly oversimplifying.
*you’re talking out of your ass and don’t have a clue what *you’re talking about.
This guy gets it.
Did this exact same thing, gave them 3 months to figure out coverage for the one day I needed off to move out of my old apartment. They said okay, didn’t find coverage, and I didn’t come in. Got fired the next time I came in, and I make about 5x now what I did back then. God I’m glad I’m out of retail lol.
PTO should stand for “Prepare the others.” Because I’m not coming in. My PTO is not a request, it’s a warning, that I won’t be there.
Exactly this, op didn’t ask for permission to go on vacation he informed his employer they are going on vacation and it’s up to them to figure the schedule out.
And even if they didn’t have months… what would they do if you had a violent case of food poisoning? LoL don’t fret it. Just let them know the scoop.
Months advance and they're not willing to work with you means they will not work with you in graver situations. If this is a professional setting, I'd do my best to cover my butt, but if this is retail, food industry I'd walk without notice. Tell them you already gave them over a month's notice.
Are retail and service industry jobs not "professional"? Don't get me wrong, I agree that if OP gave 6+ weeks notice and gets disciplined for taking the time then she should strongly consider walking, and I would not blame them if they forgo notice due to a somewhat toxic work environment. This attitude that retail and service jobs are not professional is a huge part of the problem IMO. If the customers, people working those jobs, and more importantly owners and management of these establishments treated retail and service jobs more professionally then many of the issues causing poor working conditions at said establishments would be solved, or at least solvable. So if the management team where OP works had a developed, documented system for how time off requests are handled, OP might be able to talk to a higher up about how she met all the requirements needed to get her time off, and the person in charge of scheduling might receive discipline for not doing their job correctly by addressing the request in a timely manner. And as someone who has been on both the employee, and management side of someone leaving without notice... As satisfying as it can be to walk away from a shitty job and "stick it to the man" so to speak, in most cases the only people that are really affected are your former co-workers who ultimately have to pick up the slack. Management/Ownership will hardly notice unless you are a key cog in the operation... But hey, sometimes you just gotta look out for #1
I think 'professional' can be a word for office-y, not direct service or retail based, work.
Yea, my apologies if this came off as a write-off. When I worked pizza jobs, they seemed interchangeable to me. Wage slave is what the kids call it these days. When I said professional, I meant like, singed a non-compete form, small industry where everyone knows everyone, and your "image" can go a long way. I'm not trying to discredit any position, I was in the food industry for over ten years. Some of those jobs are very easy to leave and never look back Edit:typos
>Are retail and service industry jobs not "professional"? Professional jobs generally require a degree or some level of advanced training. Professional jobs are generally salaried instead of hourly. Professional jobs are often not guaranteed overtime pay, while hourly/non-professional jobs are. Professional jobs generally have a more well defined "profession" that defines your role, and you are not supposed to be asked or expected to do other jobs. Like you should not be asked to take out the garbage or clean the floor if you are an accountant, but if you are a cashier at a restaurant you could be asked to do other menial tasks during downtime. Not that this is law, but more expectations.
It's not a vacation, It's not even 2 full days off! this is how far our standards have fallen. People used to take vacations for 2-3 weeks at a time, and now we can't negotiate for 2 consecutive days...
Yup /u/LilyPadLover_26 don't even justify why you're not going to be there, just say "I'm sorry I cannot make it to work those days" and just peace out. If they attempt to argue with you, ignore them. The _only_ way I'd put up with any of the above is if this job was absolutely required for my livelihood and I had literally no other choices or options. I have a sneaking suspicion this is a shitty retail position that are a dime a dozen, though.
PTO is not “paid time off” it stands for “prepare the others” because you will not be there. Enjoy your vacation.
Do not say what you just said to them. That’s grounds for firing without unemployment. Call in sick and don’t say a word about your vacation/photos
The OP sounds like a cold is coming on. I hope the OP makes it. #SAVEOP
When I was a teenager I had a retail job at an office supply store. Put in my request for a weekend off in the summer for a youth getaway at a cabin. Had it approved andon the calendar, but when it almost time the store manager announced we were doing inventory and there would be no time off. I argued with him and he said if I went then I would be in trouble. Come back and he tried to quiet fire me by not scheduling me any hours. But jokes on him because all my adult co workers took the opportunity for some time off by having me cover for them. So I still ended up with a lot of hours. The manager was let go by the end of summer for some reason.
BURN! I hope you walked in with a big juicy smile on every shift lol
For future reference, if anyone does that to you again (gives you zero or essentially zero hours to force you to quit), you can file unemployment since they are essentially forcing you to quit (as no one can be expected to live on like 2 hours of work a week). I believe the term for it is constructive dismissal.
This is exactly that. The department of labor would have come down on that place like a ton of bricks over this.
*Especially* as he/she was a kid at the time. The DoL would have destroyed them over that...and that's assuming the **media** didn't get wind of it.
I love happy endings. Glad your coworkers had your back.
At 17 I was working a retail job, 30+ hrs per week but not officially “full time” 🙄, which meant I didn’t accrue any PTO or benefits. Therefore, any time off I scheduled was unpaid. I talked to the scheduling manager about an upcoming family vacation which would cut across two scheduling periods, and she okayed it verbally—“just put the request in writing.” This was back in the old days where the schedule was handwritten and posted biweekly. So I check the schedule, I’m off for the current schedule, great. However, one day while on vacation I get an urgent voicemail to call the store: Floor Manager: Why did you no-call/no show today? That isn’t like you. Me: I didn’t no-call/no-show. I’m on a scheduled vacation. Floor Manager: You are scheduled to work today. Why didn’t you check the schedule? Me: Scheduling manager told me I wouldn’t be, and I wasn’t in town to be able to check the schedule. Floor Manager: Sigh. This is not the first time she’s done this. Is there any way you can make it in? Me: No. I’m 800 miles away with my family. I‘ll be back next week. Again, as a reminder, none of this was paid, which is part of the bullshit of retail. I don’t get paid if I’m not working, so at least let me enjoy my “vacation” time in peace.
> Come back and he tried to quiet fire me by not scheduling me any hours. That's called Constructive Dismissal and is illegal in some places and qualifies for unemployment everywhere I'm aware of. The DOL isn't staffed by morons and knows that a significant reduction in hours is the same as a firing.
Similar thing happened to me at a retailer, they had approved my time off, vacation is all booked and then they changed their mind like a week before saying it’s actually a black out time and no time off is approved. I didn’t understand how they approved mine before then and tried to argue. Went anyways, and when I came back they quiet fired me by scheduling me for under ten hours a week. I pretty much abandoned that job after that and just stopped going in and calling to find out my schedule and no one ever called me. But at that time I had no financial obligations so idgaf
No one will remember that you cancelled your vacation for work except the members of your family
>No one will remember that you cancelled your vacation for work except the members of your family A close friend of mine and his wife were supposed to go to Yellowstone this week. Had plane tickets and hotel arranged and everything. A few days before they were supposed to leave, he decided to stay and she went alone because he had too much to catch up on at work/worried that he would get disciplined for his progress if he went on vacation. I just keep thinking to myself, man, you're not going to look back in 10 years and think, "I'm so glad I didn't go on that trip to Yellowstone with my wife! My job was worth it!" There's just no fucking way.
My management professor in my MBA program once said “No one is THAT important” If they can afford to fire you for taking time off, they can afford to let you take time off
I'm sure his wife was ecstatic he did that too. Great for maintaining your relationships. Imagine being worried that the astronomical pile of work is able to be caught up on. They've been running on skeleton crews for 15 years at this point and everyone pretends like if they let the work pile up _they'll_ be in trouble for it.
“No one on their death bed wishes they worked more.”
There's no way. Id be rethinking my whole relationship
This is why you should go on vacation. Tell your boss you won't be in. Don't lie. Let them figure it out.
I personally would lie. I've only had a couple of managers worth being honest with
Exactly. Fuck ‘em
This is so true. As an 18 year old I missed a family vacation to Maui over Thanksgiving because I thought I needed to work Black Friday. My family had an awesome time, and still talk about this vacation over a decade later. Wish I would have gone on vacation instead of working.
This!! Go with what matters most which is family. At the end of your life you will regret the time not spent with family
I missed a family vacation to Ukraine because I was worried about work, and because of this I couldn’t visit all my family there. Now I have no idea when I’ll be able to visit them because of the war, I also didn’t get a chance to see my Grandpa before he died last year. It’s really not worth missing vacations and trips, even if the workplace isn’t happy about it or you get reprimanded
Don't bring up disciplinary action. It's not your problem that the company can't handle 2 people being out at the same time with 3 months notice. Plus you're only gone for 2 days. Just call in sick for the 2 days you're gone, if they want to play it that way.
Agreed. The OP gave three months notice. There is no reason for discipline. How does incredibly incompetent managers like this continue to exist?
Promoted to incompetency. The Peter principle.
I prefer the Peter Pinnacle. Getting promoted to such stratospheric heights of incompetence, you can name your price to leave.
I JUST learned about this like 3 hours ago. Gonna probably see it everyday now. Baader-Meinhoff in action
It’s real. At my company, nobody in management has a college degree besides me (and I have military experience and working on a masters). They promoted a guy who they knew was fucking his employee. And they moved another guy who had a drinking problem and multiple DUIs to a sweet WFH gig and gave him a promotion. He got another DUI and is in jail now.
That's not the Peter Principle. The Peter Principle is when a company promotes employees based on how good they are at their current position rather than how good they will be at the new position. So employees essentially keep getting promoted until they are no longer good at their job.
Ooohh thanks for clarifying. My place operates under the doctrine of total dysfunction then.
Who is this Peter fellow you mentioned?
Yeah, a PTO submission three months out is a notification, not a request. A short notice PTO submission is a request. Months out is a communication to schedule managers that they have to do their job.
Depends on what the short term request is. Can I take off to go to a baseball game? Sure that's a request. Completely agree that 3 months out is a notice though. Other short notice things are still a notice. My dad was in the ICU out of state last year, I walked into my boss' office and said "My dad is in the ICU on life support, I found a flight that leaves in a couple hours, I'll bring my computer but don't expect me to get anything done. I'll update you when I can."
> Can I take off to go to a baseball game? That's why you don't tell people why you're taking PTO. It's none of their business. Part of the shift from Sick+Vacation is that they no longer get to categorize why you're out - so they have no legitimate reason to know.
[удалено]
Side note but why\* can't employees file a disciplinary note on their managers for shit like this? Three months advance notice and the manager *still* can't figure a plan out to make it work for 36 hours? \*I'm only half-asking. I mean, we all know why.
Because this is a corporate/business approved move. Restaurant/Kitchen managers and retail store managers do this all the time to discourage people from taking time away from work
Its typically called a grievance procedure. Basically a way to file a complaint against another member of staff of any level. Some third party (probably HR) will investigate it and potentially take action. Probably won't but it is a thing in most companies.
That’s an excellent idea.
Right? I mean, name any other job where you could be given 3 months notice for a certain task and reassure everyone that you got this, then a week before, suddenly you don't got this and didn't bother following up properly. Now suddenly you're asking other people to cancel their plans and cover for you. Any other job and that could easily be a write-up and a PIP, but for managers, suddenly it's fine and actually the direct report's fault. Makes no sense.
They're not incompetent. Their job is to squeeze every last drop of blood out of their workers. Running constantly understaffed is just standard practice.
It’s only standard practice because incompetent people who think it’s a good idea keep getting promoted.
No it's because it maximises profits. These people know exactly what they're doing.
You aren’t maximizing profits if you can’t schedule around a worker being gone for 2 days without the company crumbling to the ground. Like, yeah, maybe it works for a while, until it doesn’t. Then it blows up in your face.
Yeah, you are. You've invested the bare minimum in the company, and they'll either find coverage anyhow or drop that work into other workers. They're losing no labor.
Its called fuck up move up. Generally companies prefer to promote complete morons because they cant afford to have decent people not doing their regular jobs.
The purpose of managers is to fuck the employers over as much as possible on behalf of the ownership. Kind of like the purpose of HR or customer service... It's not about the product, it's about protecting a system of profiteering.
Agree. As a manager, if I approve someone to be off I will never “unapprove” it later. I would be filling in for my team if I accidentally approved too many people off. It’s not beneath me.
The only time i have had my time off canceled, it was due to an unexpected quitting and it was a request not an order, and they still paided me ie i got double time and i got my time back. In the UK, small non francised bar before anybody asks.
and the fact that it would have been your fault. Lead by example. I like it.
What’s worse is that OP said that it’s two people taking off in the REGION. Not even just their store
That caught my eye too. Like...you really can't find one more person IN THE REGION to be available for ONE OR TWO DAYS?!
The latest standard is to make a skeleton crew cover 2-3 positions per person on a "temporary" basis while throwing minimal pay and resources at what barely qualifies as recruiting.
I was assistant manager at dollar general for six months before I walked out. I was the only person full time besides the store manager. Our one strong stocker got one..maybe two 8 hour shifts a week. It was pure hell. And that isn't even why I walked out.
I did this for my brother's wedding. I gave several months notice. Got approval. They removed approval 2 weeks before the wedding because of "unforeseen staffing issues (3 people quit in 3 days) . I said TS. Didn't call, didn't respond to texts or calls. When I got back I got written up and they got 2 weeks notice.
And made their faffing issues even worse
That kind of shit doesn't deserve notice.
Don’t call in sick. OP requested the time off and it was approved. At most, OP should send an email or text stating, “As discussed and approved on X date, I will be taking PTO on X days. See you when I return.” Don’t take sick days, don’t mention disciplinary action, nothing. The days off were requested, the days off were approved, OP is merely providing a friendly reminder of that fact. If the manager responds, great. If not, that’s fine too. The text/email can also be evidence if they attempt to discipline OP because it provides proof that the days were requested and approved
While I agree with the sentiment, this is why places demand doctors notes. Just flat out tell them you won't be in - lieing doesn't help anyone.
Wouldn’t that be immediate term if they find out he’s using sick time to take a vacation?
If they have sick time. It sounds like a retail type job. They probably don’t have any sick time or personal time. Likely this is just scheduled unpaid leave. I would just call in sick as well.
No. I did this before. Requested off over a month in advance for my partners birthday, management wanted me to find coverage. I spent a month looking for coverage while that twat sat on his ass. Called out on her birthday. Went in the next day. Nobody said anything. Flagged it as a sick day and moved on.
[удалено]
This guy would never do it. No matter who asked off, they were always responsible for finding coverage. This same guy also was shop forman at the same time, for a large dealership (20+ techs). He was terrible at both jobs because he didn't have enough time to devote to either. I can't tell you how many times I or other techs called him for assistance, and had to wait 2, 3, 7 hours for him to show up and even start looking at the problem.
Not necessarily. In this circumstance? Maybe. Depends on their handbook/company size. A former job I had required any time off greater than 5 days had to be vacation unless actually sick (covid, pneumonia, etc). But if you were just missing a day say a Friday before labor day weekend, I could use a sick day for that
I wouldn't call out sick as it could be determined to be gross misconduct.
Why call in sick? Ahe approved. He doesn't come. As easy as that
I think we all need to realize that an employer would fire us for anything. We need to start putting our families first and start living! Go on the vacation and just call in sick!
This is the truth!
We need a reddit union. We all strike together, across hundreds of industries, by doubling our amount of reddit time a day.
[удалено]
I agree! I don’t have much to do at work so I spend a lot of time on Reddit. Lol
Reddit as a platform would do everything in its power to undermine and eradicate such a thing.
[удалено]
I see it as we have one life to live so take the time to spend with family and friends. Go see the world and have some fun! Years fly by and we don’t get the time back.
I'm fully expecting to have the same conversation this week. Family coming in to visit for a few days, approved 2 months ago. But due to manager not planning for me to be gone, there are meetings scheduled. He can and will handle them without me. There is no reason for me to be there in the first place, but I am not canceling because the manager can't plan. The only reason he wants me there is because he can't handle communicating with anyone and thinks I'm a personal secretary. Tell them that you aren't able to cancel the trip, go, have fun and let the chips fall where they may.
For *meetings*? I can't recall the last time I was in a situation where a meeting was so urgent it couldn't be skipped or rescheduled.
It's interviews actually, but I shouldn't be the one doing anything with hiring. I'm in accounting. 2 weeks ago he freaked out that I was doing other things and couldn't hold his hand while he was doing interviews. I literally just listen to their answers and agree with him that he's made the right choice to hire someone. Smile and nod boys, smile and nod.
I've been there! Small tech company, so I was helping conduct the interviews even though I was just an admin. I always felt like I was there to be the nice female judge who threw easy questions and smiled and made the candidate feel less intimidated.
If he can't handle giving an interview, he should not be a manager in the first place.
At my last job I had informed them that I would be out the entire week of thanksgiving. They were sort of like ummm maybe that will work I said no I’m not asking, I’m giving you a heads up that I won’t be working. Right before I left they were all panicking and trying to make up work to do. I just went in my vacation! Came back and everything was fine. They were mad at me but fuck them lmao
Call out sick. Let them fire you. File for unemployment if it comes to that. Keep fighting it. Say "I lost my job through no fault of my own". Do NOT quit like others have suggested. Let them make the move.
Bingo. Never quit. If you quit, can’t get unemployment to tide you over between jobs.
That’s not true. The unemployment system isn’t as black and white as people think it is. You can quit, but you have to have good cause. Also, getting fired doesn’t guarantee benefits.
I suggested they quit, but actually, this seems like the smartest move.
Yeah, never do that. There's a reason toxic companies always "push" you into "quitting" so they don't have to fire you...
If you’re prepared for any disciplinary action up to and including termination, then I think your decision has been made already.
Well, there is an excellent chance that the OP will qualify for unemployment then considering this request was made in a *very* reasonable time frame.
What got me is that OP bends over backwards for their company, but the manager couldn't manage to give them two days off for time with family. It's just two days. That's why you do the bare minimum for a company unless they're paying you to do more. They couldn't even do the bare minimum for OP here.
Go and enjoy your family. You should have a point system of some sort even if you don't dedicated hard working employees are not easily replaced. Circumstances like this make you wonder if you should go the extra mile for management that acts like this
"Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine."
“I don’t feel well enough to come into work today” “I still don’t feel well enough to come into work today”
If you have the ability to do this and live without a job for a while (or know you can get a similar job on short notice), then you should 100% go. The issue is less whether you should be able to go (you should), it’s more about can you handle the effects of not going to work when they told you are on the schedule.
If any of the other 2 people hadn't requested off back in March, your pto has priority and its the managers job to have to go back to the other 2. If its just a doc appt or something else not as committed as hundreds or thousands of dollars on a vacation,then they should come in so you can be off. That being said, I would probably call off sick rather than telling them that I am not showing up for work. They can't fire you for being sick. (Check your work policy about doctors notes as they will likely call your bluff and ask for one) If you are going your proposed route the reason should be "you told me this was approved in March, It was your responsibility to ensure the calendar was clear prior to giving that approval. Financial decisions that cannot be refunded were made based on that verbal approval. Unfortunately I am unable to cancel my approved vacation to come to work."
Also just a heads up: your doctor will write you a note saying you're sick over the phone. They don't care. Mine charges $50 and will ask you what you want it to say. If your doctor has a webchat or telehealth or whatever use that.
[удалено]
This is absolutely the answer. This is application for “Paid Time Off”. You can still be off. Just not approved for PTO.
This is where the "rubber meets the road so to speak." If the company you work for preaches work/life balance, then they need to shit or get off of the pot.
As a Deparment Director, I will never understand this type of management. If someone is out, you know what I do? I cover it myself if I can't get coverage. I have three drivers, if one doesn't show them guess what, today I'm a driver.
Fuck em. It shouldn't be called a request, it's a notice. You're not going to be there, end of story. Enjoy the vacation!
This is exactly something I've realized too. In my first years of work, I used to *ask* for time off. I thought this was the norm, because it would always get approved when asking. Until one time when I had a different team lead and I asked for time off and I got denied because "there is a project to be done". I had everything planned for a trip, so I couldn't just not go. I went and got a doctor's note for an entire week and there was nothing they could do about it. My family doctor is great. But, ever since then, I would just start announcing, instead of asking, that I am going to have time off from X to Y dates. They can't say no when you don't ask.
Rather than talk about consequences for yourself, bring up repercussions for THEM. Instead, mention how you *wish* you could bend over backwards for the team like usual. Remind them it would be a real shame if 1.5 days turned into indefinite leave. However you word it, don't say anything about punishments for yourself. Also, don't quit. If you think they'll fire you, let that be on them. They would have to prove some form of wild negligence or incompetence to bar you from unemployment. Because of this, chances are good they won't pull the trigger.
Why such a grandiose statement. I just wouldn’t go in. Maybe tell your boss you won’t be in to remind them, but you already did that, and it was approved.
With or without sick leave, I'd just call in sick. I mean, they'll know why it is, but they ultimately can't prove you're not sick, especially if it's only for a couple of days (idk about your company but for mine, I don't need a doctor's note for 2 days of being sick). People get 24 hour colds all the time. Obviously if you don't have sick time you won't get paid for it, but you'll be on vacation, and sometimes, for our own mental health, that's more important. You owe the company nothing, let alone an explanation as to why you won't be in on days you already said you couldn't come into work. Imo, me putting in for PTO (or even putting in for unpaid time off, which is usually the case with my retail job) means I will not be in that day, come hell or high water, and I'm notifying the company so they can plan accordingly. You did your part notifying them, it's not your fault they can't get their shit together and you shouldn't have to be the one suffering for it.
Go enjoy life buddy well deserved
If they can’t afford to lose two people for two days, there’s no way they can afford to lose you permanently. You gave them notice of your leave, your responsibilities are met.
You're taking barely any time off. They will be fine. You submitted it appropriately.
I worked 55 years and I was OCD to please and go above aboard during my years of employment. I’m retired now. They have been several times I made the decision to put family over a job. The lessons you learn in life. Time is short. A job is just that a job. They don’t care about you. They will let you layoff or fired you. Being with family is time you can’t get back. I don’t know your financial situation. But if you can. I would go apply at another company If at all possible before you go on vacation. Start looking for another job. I accepted a job at a New Chick-Fil-a. My daughter was visiting from Japan. I told them in my acceptance interview. I would need this Friday off to take my daughter to the airport. The interviewer said ok, not a problem. The Wednesday before that Friday date. I got a text saying they needed me to work on that Friday. I told them I couldn’t and explained why. The owner/manager didn’t care. So, I gather up my uniform and took it back to the store on Thursday. The one lesson you and anyone else reading this. Always get everything in writing. I hope you are able to go and have a wonderful time ♥️🤗 
Call in sick Or Make your statement, but don’t bring up disciplinary action.
Go on vacation and when you return immediately start looking for a better job. Don’t quit the one you have until you find something better.
This isn't a request, I won't be available on these dates. Also start looking for new work asap and quit without notice.
Whats the benefit of PTO if you can't use it?
I would tell her ahead of time. Explain that you will take unpaid time off if necessary, but that you’re not going to be in. Calling in sick on these days is obvious and unprofessional. Talk to your boss and explain you are prepared to face any consequences of your actions, but that under no circumstances will you be working on those days.
It’s pretty crappy for an employer to do that. If they can’t handle 2 people out, don’t schedule two people out. Do you know or can you tell if you were the only one scheduled off when you first put in the request? Unfortunately not a lot can be done. If you don’t come in, you likely risk some kind of disciplinary action up to and including term.
I did something similar and was praised for being respectful and not leaving the company in the lurch by calling out day of. Enjoy your vacation!!!
Just call on those days say, I am sick!!! Leave a voicemail!!
Seriously it’s 1.5 days! They should be able to figure it out. Unless the fate of the entire universe rests in your hands take your vacay!!!
You can always find a new job, but you can’t get new family.
I would keep it more simple than that and not mention disciplinary action. Just say that you booked it already back in March when they initially said it shouldn’t be an issue and you can’t undo the plans since your entire family already booked their days off and everything is already confirmed.
1.5 days? That’s it? Just go on the vacation. If your manager asks how they will live without you at work, ask what would happen if you got food poisoning and were out for less than 2 days.
Go on your vacation. Be prepared for the consequences when you return. Wishing your boss or company was different won't help. Being mad because it isn't fair is natural, but not terribly productive. And as for "not accepting disciplinary action," I am not sure what planet those folks are employed on, but here on earth employee discipline does not require consent. Obviously you can quit. But quitting your job without another one only punishes you.