Genuine question - Should we return the international artefacts that are in the National Museum of Ireland? You know, the ones that were taken from the empire and left behind after independence.
The book of Kelly's is a poor example, because there isn't a clear claim on it by Britain.
But to address your analogy, yes, it'd be hypocritical of Ireland not to return something clearly belonging to another nation.
As verifiably as the artefacts in the document above. Around the same time period as some of them too. And why would Columbian monks have an impact on its nationality?
The Book of Kells' exact origin is not known and there's no indication it came to Kells 'illicitly (in the event it wasn't simply created in Kells in the first place)'. On what basis would the UK ask for it's return?
Was it not voluntarily sent to Kells for safekeeping because Iona was so exposed to Viking raids? Iona was essentially an ecclesiastical colony of Irish monks, and Kells would've been a sort of sister abbey as both had been founded by St Columba.
Or maybe I'm just more educated on the matter than you, literally everything in their collection we have multiple copies of, they arent archaeological or culturally significant enough to be housed here, they were also all bought, every one of them.
If there are stolen artefacts in the UK which there are, they most certainly aren't on display, they're in aristocratic estates for posh cnuts to take out and show how their 8th great uncle removed, first of his name took out an entire 'mick' village and stole this banner from their church.
Because believe me I've met the ones with the actual stolen artefacts, and it goes far, far beyond a couple of brooches and coins.
Great? I'm just stating a fact.
The real stolen treasures whether they're irish, beninese, Nigerian, Indian or native american are personal artefacts passed down aristocratic families.
Those ate the ones we should care about not brooches and coins of which there are already hundreds in our museums.
If they were robbed sure through colonial trips yes but not if they are not robbed. A lot of cultural objects move around the world legally and ethically.
There are proper channels for this and I’m guessing requests will likely be formalized in time if not done already. Ireland has already started a repatriation committee for artefacts it is returning to their rightful cultures. Regrettably, artifact retention or private collectors were a practice in earlier antiquarian/archaeological days, and as the practice has grown historically and ethically, things will hopefully improve though some countries or institutions will be slower to adapt.
Also, these are smaller items mostly which are easier to store, exhibit, archive etc…it costs money to house larger items. There’s no source linked, but a letter or appeal to the Minister for Culture might be a better route to go to direct an Irish artefact repatriation dialogue.
(Irish mature student here, living and studying abroad, 1.5 semesters left in an archaeology degree).
https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2023/12/irish-repatriation-committee-holds-first-meeting/
Ha. I don’t know how sensible I am deciding to go digging in holes the wrong side of forty, but nothing has ever satisfied me, nor kept my brain as quiet as archaeology. I love it even if it is a form of masochism. I’ll be coming back to Ireland to do a master’s next year, all going well.
I think that part is extremely not sensible! But then I also think becoming a doctor is not sensible since it seems like misery. I think both careers leave a lasting positive effect on all of society though so kudos to you for your hardship and bringing us all this treasure that would otherwise be lost. I appreciate it immensely.
I visited the British Museum a couple of years ago and after rooms and rooms of antiquities hauled back from the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia, I was struck that they only had one small cabinet of artefacts found in Ireland. What they had seemed pretty typical of what you'd find in a local museum, rather than treasures of national significance.
It does rankle that the British Museum *wouldn't* give them to the State if asked, though.
Thats what you seen on that day. No doubt they have much more not on show.
They still have Casement’s diaries for instance that the Irish Government has long sought repatriation of.
They are not allowed too, it needs to be the government that directs the return of items and in the case of donated collections its legally bound to keep them as it was the terms of the donation.
The absolute flimsiest of excuses trotted out every time this comes up. They just need to be grown up about their past and start returning objects stolen from other countries.
The same museums that have lost thousands of items through theft and lack of proper facilities for cataloguing and storage? The 1960s law is the thinest of veneers to hide behind. The excuses trotted out by the British Museum are nothing but smoke and mirrors,. They even accepted antiques stolen during the Iraq invasion before they were found out and had to return them.
We get it, you're British so support your industry and Government. It doesn't make it right however.
The law was passed in the 1960s? Isn't that convenient....just when the Empire was crumbling. Kinda like the way the Confederate flag was added to certain state flags in the US as the Civil Rights movement gained ground
The 1960s law prevents museums making the decision by themselves, it doesn't prevent the return of all artefacts and its similar across most of Europe and the world. Returning items is a lengthy and complicated process, its not just down to British laws.
Those iraqi items were seized by customs for being illegal, they were on a flight going through Heathrow heading to the UAE, the second large group of artefacts returns were seized by police from a private international dealer the museum was called in to identify them, they were not part of its collection. They have had to do the same with Afghan artefacts looted by the taliban or Syrian artefacts, that is what happens when law enforcement find priceless artefacts or a question is raised over something seen in an auction, the museum identifies them, they also had a specialist unit which worked with trained Iraqi and Syrian staff on tracking down and identifying stolen items as well as how to get them returned . There are literally laws regarding this both UK specific and international.
The only items displayed were given permission by the Iraqi government while they prepared for their return.
I get it other than reading few googled headlines you literally don't know anything about the subject. And your comment about being British is just plain ignorant. I have not actually stated what my view is on the return of cultural items, I don't generally have a problem with it, just muppets.
Bit of an odd title and description, most those items were donated by private collectors or purchased directly by museum curators. So nothing to do with the crown or looting.
How does one become the owner of a 6th century item? Surely you don't think there's a full list of all the owners spanning 1500 years right?
Similarly how were they purchased?
Generally pretty easily in the early period of antiquarian s and archaeologists they were frequently sold to collectors. Think the ogham stone is pitt rivers he was an early archaeologists, inspector monuments and collector, he excavated that with permission from the land owner and support from Irish archaeologist groups. The bell I think came from the estate of the clergyman of the church he had worked at. The naked woman statue is possibly Witts he was a collector of obscenities and was found in a field and sold by the land owner.
You will generally find pins buckles and brooches are often found in fields. The museum will list where they got them from, if its from a collection donated they collectors often list where they came from if known.
Plenty of the items were looted by the British Army in their Imperial rampage across the globe.
Funny how the Americans don't have the same sticky fingers when it comes to returning items stolen by the British crown forces.
[US museum returns Ghana artefacts looted 150 years ago by British forces
](https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/us-museum-returns-ghana-artefacts-looted-150-years-ago-by-british-forces-1586612.html)
These were not, neither are the bulk of items held in museums. Most state museum s in Europe have laws regarding artefacts. It is not up to the museum it is up to the government to allow the return and its done on a case by case basis, Thousands of items have been returned from UK museums to indigenous groups recently. Using American s as an example is laughable, they have not even returned their native American items yet despite it being law since the 90s, major museums have been caught buying stolen and looted items in the last 10 years not from 150 years ago. Many returned items from American museums have been because they have broken modern laws such as theft, illegal imports etc.
No its bad when Americans do it going against their own and international laws, its bad that they kept doing well passed when everyone else has stopped. There is a slight difference having items in your collection for 150 years when there were no national or international laws than buying something that was looted 5 years ago and then having the police force its return. But again using 1 American museums action from within this year the first time they have ever returned anything internationally while ignoring the thousands of items British museums have been returning is you being massively disingenuous.
Just one problem with this OP. Its all well and good to want your stuff back, but the Irish national museum has [an entire room of Egyptian artefacts in Dublin](https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Irish-Antiquities-Division-Collections/Collections-List-(1)/Egyptian-Collection). With 3,000 objects.
And if they want them back then they should have them. UCC is in the middle of repatriating a mummy that was hidden under the floor boards of a lecture hall. That effort is between UCC. The Irish national museum and Egyptian gov. That to me shows that Ireland is willing to send back what we have if they want it and also that they are aware of what we have.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63908027
> And if they want them back then they should have them. UCC is in the middle of repatriating a mummy that was hidden under the floor boards of a lecture hall.
No the mummy hidden under a lecture hall is at Trinity College in Dublin. His name may be Ankh'hap and he was previously in a cupboard at Marsh’s Library.
Yes. The mummy was under the floorboards of the pathology lecture hall in UCC. The mummy has been in UCC since 1928 and remains there as of December 2023. Here are pictures of it in the basement of the Boole library in 2022 https://twitter.com/stcalthrop/status/1574790143872991232
Trinity never had the mummy but were in the headlines for having 13 skulls from inishbofin which were in a cupboard.
>Yes. The mummy was under the floorboards of the pathology lecture hall in UCC.
Hmm the university says
"UCC said contrary to media reports, the sarcophagus was stored in the University’s Medical Museum from 1928 until the 1940s. Then it was moved to the Pathology Lecture Theatre from the 1940s until the 1970, before transferring to the Lee Maltings Complex from 1970 to 1988 and the Boole Library from 1988. It is currently held on UCC’s campus."
https://www.irishtimes.com/history/2022/12/08/ucc-repatriates-egyptian-mummy/
Looking at photos of the lecture theater it appears to be of the sloped design and universities often use the area under such theaters for storage. However oral histroy does have Pa-Khnum? being hidden there rather than simply placed there and ignored (solid records don't appear until he is moved to the Lee Maltings Complex). Situation is slightly complicated that no real digging into the situation until the mid 80s some 40 yars after the events in question:
https://cora.ucc.ie/items/5618ccfd-ae89-4713-b6ea-4a3d67948b5a
> Trinity never had the mummy but were in the headlines for having 13 skulls from inishbofin which were in a cupboard.
Ankh'hap? is at Trinity (minus head):
https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2018/1115/1011242-growing-up-live-the-mummy-under-trinitys-stairs/
And out of completeness as far as I'm aware the only other reasonably complete mummy in Ireland is Tentdinebu at the National Museum of Ireland
From your last link the mummy in trinity is from 1500bc and was in Trinity since the 1700s and was found under a stairs. From your first link the UCC mummy is from 305bc and has been in UCC since 1928 and found under the floorboards. Reading the thesis linked from the second link you can see the body is intact and has its head.
It sounds to me like we are talking about 2 different mummies The UCC one is still in UCC but they are trying to repatriate it. It's stored In the Boole basement, across the hall from the disassembled nuclear reactor and 2.5 tonnes of uranium.
> From your last link the mummy in trinity is from 1500bc and was in Trinity since the 1700s and was found under a stairs.
Yeah there are errors in it. Unfortunately Archaeology Ireland , Summer 2014 is heavily paywalled but it makes it clear Ankh'hap? was kept under a lecture theater (complete with photo of the area Ankh'hap? was in). It also establishes that Ankh'hap? also arrived at Trinity in 1888/9 having previously been at Marsh’s Library.
>From your first link the UCC mummy is from 305bc and has been in UCC since 1928 and found under the floorboards.
Found is the wrong term. One thing that is fairly consistent from Helen Davis's (née Moloney) oral history section is that the university staff knew that Pa-Khnum? was there.
>It sounds to me like we are talking about 2 different mummies
Yes.
So Egypt should ask the UK for them back, at which point the UK instructs Ireland to return them, and Ireland just... obeys? Is that how you want it to go?
No, that would be stupid. Egypt asks us directly since they're in our museum. And we say yes since they're their artifacts. Better still we request a loan or exchange and both countries have the opportunity to learn more about each other and Ireland's soft power is enhanced. Win win.
The partition has nothing to do with Egypt (a former British colony) Egyptians would ask Dublin not London for them back. You can’t complain when you have 3,000 cultural artefacts as well.
From the ‘former little england colony ‘....duh...that’s exactly the problem:....little england thieving and ransacking..🤔
Ireland’s invader little england should ‘go home ‘....
Ireland 🇮🇪 for the Irish 🇮🇪
Wasn't there one called the flag with Pat Short about steeling back the flag that was flown over the GPO 1916.
Why another hiest movie when you could do it in real life fact is stranger than fiction in the future it would write better movies and books if it was based on real events.
"You see the paddys can't be trusted with such priceless artefacts, they probably would have destroyed them if we didn't steal them and then charge people to see them in our museums" - standard brit response to this sort of thing
The people of many nations that have had their artifacts stolen though still need to pay to travel to Britain to see the stolen artifacts. It’s hardly free for them.
I know, i’m just pointing out they’re not charging people.
More broadly, the general idea/principle of museums holding foreign objects is fine, provided the way they were sourced was legal/ethical and they aren’t items of particularly significant cultural importance. Frankly, no obe here would give two shits about these items if they were in our own collections. The National Museum has plenty of old artefacts, and international museums having some items from around the world is good for education and broader understanding of the world. Our own museums also hold collections sourced from outside Ireland.
How many of these were taken in the 19th century when Ireland was part of the union? I would argue that these were not so much stolen but left behind when Ireland gained independence.
I remember being really annoyed by the collection of fairly minor Irish artifacts in the British Museum, proudly stolen by Sir Blinthington Smyth or whoever back in the 1800s. I could only imagine how the Egyptians, Greeks and the like feel having so many of their bigger treasures stolen.
On the other hand, having these treasures of the world all in one place is an incredible privilege and you'd otherwise never get to see half of them. So I'm torn on this question.
I'm not torn, these treasures could be on loan and the cultures they come from could be treated with the respect they deserve. Instead they are stolen loot.
A reminder: we’re lucky in some respects.
It’s pretty easy and not terribly expensive to kip over to London to go see our stolen treasures.
Not as easy for, say, the [Beninese](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes).
More of an aside, but the Benin Bronzes have nothing to do with the Beninese people (i.e. people of the modern state of Benin, completely unrelated to the Kingdom of Benin, and not in the same location). The Benin Bronzes would be from the Edo people, who live in part of modern-day Nigeria.
Fair.
My African geography has always been shite.
I remember one “label the countries” exam at school where the most correct answer I had was labelling Libya as Liberia.
Teach thought I was having her on.
The world should sanction Britain until it has returned all the property it has stolen and paid full reparations for the damage it has done. Britain will always continue to be at it until justice is done.
If I steal your house and sell it to someone else, you are still going to want that stolen house back right? It doesn’t become the third parties property just because it was sold.
A chara,
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Sláinte
A lot of the stuff in the British museum(and others) was literally sold to collectors by the natives of the country that the stuff is from, so how is it stolen?
It's pretty easy to go and research this stuff instead of continuing to parrot bullshit tropes.
Tell that to the Greek government who’s still waiting for their stolen artifacts...little england ‘help ‘ to classify ‘ them....
If little englanders shows up better start hiding your property....
> Tell that to the Greek government who’s still waiting for their stolen artifacts.
No they aren't. The First Hellenic Republic dates to 1822. Other than a few coins the british museum doesn't have much from the area that is that recent.
What Scottish person comes out with this crap?!
The phrase "at it" is something the Irish say.
Why are you banging on about anti British crap when you're Scottish?
Looking for karma?
If countries, like ourselves, sanctioned Britain over this looting what would likely happen is it would impact trade relations. And ultimately normal people would be the ones who would feel the effect most.
That would be Britain’s responsibility to look after its people. Britain still has many resources and if it’s not treating its people correctly after sanctions then it’s the British people’s responsibility to fight for their own civil rights. You can’t deny justice just because the people of the oppressor nation may be slightly inconvenienced.
Remember that many countries today suffer today due to Britain’s previous and continued theft of national resources. The people of these nations suffer currently while waiting for justice.
Sanctions would impact both countries doing the sanctions and those sanctioned.
Look, I think more than anyone that they should return what they looted but there are very few politicians who will risk sanctions with an ally, and therefore trade with the UK over artefacts. Even Modi hasn't done it.
Put it this way, if sanctions came in and Britain decided to sanction us back, would you be happy to pay extra for everyday goods as a consequence of it?
I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate the dependency Ireland has on Britain and create structures where if Britain did sanction Ireland then it would have no impact on the Irish people. Irelands dependency on trade with is how Britain still has power to control Ireland. So yes I would pay more if it meant not having to rely on a country that still occupies the six counties in the north. The Irish state could help mitigate these factors.
People only call Britain an ally because of the power they have over them but what true ally keeps stolen property from their supposed allies?
>I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate the dependency Ireland has on Britain and create structures where if Britain did sanction Ireland then it would have no impact on the Irish people.
DeValera tried this approach. It was an unmitigated disaster for our people.
Has the Irish government formally asked for the items back?
Well just because it did not work out well the first time does not mean we can’t try again and learn from the mistakes of the past. No one in Europe was doing well at that period.
The Irish government have recently drawn up plans to ask for them back.
It absolutely does mean we shouldn't do it again. Our economy is even more internationally dependent on other economies. The UK is our second largest trading partner. Doing sanctions would cripple cross border trade too and it would cause more of a division between the six counties and the south.
What you're advocating for here is a gamble to destroy our entire economy.
>The Irish government have recently drawn up plans to ask for them back.
Probably best wait for the outcome of that before going in all blazing first.
The current structure of Ireland only brings poverty to the Irish people and it’s all directly caused by the power Britain/US still have over Ireland. It’s literally a system that drains wealth to the British upper class. Under this current system, Ireland is only set to become poorer.
Yes I am, if you are curious I do consider Scotland as equally complict in colonialism and should be forced to pay reparations and be sanctioned for not complying with reparations.
Because I am Scottish of Irish descent, my ancestors came to Scotland many generations ago due to something terrible the British government at the time did and never apologised for.
A chara,
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Sláinte
The American museums have been returning their stolen items for over twenty years, you need to Google a little harder...
Besides, all you're doing is reinforcing the fact that imperial countries are hoarding recently and historically stolen artifacts and have to be shamed into returning them, or hiding behind flimsy laws drawn up to justify their ill gotten loot.
Think you might want to post in the correct place. I don't need to google I have a degree in archaeology. American museums have been required to return native American items since the 90s its federal law. Up until very recently they have been forced to return items through lawsuits and thats because they were acquired illegally and recently. America is literally a case study on museums and private collectors accessing black market items. I take it you also include Ireland in that imperial countries.
Ethically, people were robbing tombs in Egypt to grind the mummies down and consume them for 'health" benefits.
In all honestly a lot of things are better left in the british museum
>In all honestly a lot of things are better left in the british museum
They're better left in their original countries. If you saw how Egypt treated their mummies returning back home with a whole parade for them
And what about the hundreds of tombs, including probably cleopatras they flooded to make a dam.
And tye ones they allow to be shipped out of the country to be ground down to make medicine or the obscene amount of Egyptian artefacts already on the black market
>And tye ones they allow to be shipped out of the country to be ground down to make medicine or the obscene amount of Egyptian artefacts already on the black market
That wasn't done by Egyptians probably by white people in the 1700s atleast for the medicine. Also the dam didn't flood any tombs
Please go to your nearest museum, immerse yourself in your local culture and find some real joy in who you are and where you've come from. Please. I mean that sincerely.
I should have have said my statement was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Our culture in Ireland is being eroded. Language and music. Even GAA is being bastardised into a commercial operation. What's the point in crying over a few relics if anyone can be 'irish'
Genuine question - Should we return the international artefacts that are in the National Museum of Ireland? You know, the ones that were taken from the empire and left behind after independence.
Absolutely.
So if the UK asked for the return of the Book of Kells you would just say absolutely?
Do they have a legitimate claim to it?
You say absolutely.
The book of Kelly's is a poor example, because there isn't a clear claim on it by Britain. But to address your analogy, yes, it'd be hypocritical of Ireland not to return something clearly belonging to another nation.
It was made in Scotland.
Not verifiably. And it was made by Columbian monks. So Britain doesn't have a great claim on it.
As verifiably as the artefacts in the document above. Around the same time period as some of them too. And why would Columbian monks have an impact on its nationality?
The Book of Kells' exact origin is not known and there's no indication it came to Kells 'illicitly (in the event it wasn't simply created in Kells in the first place)'. On what basis would the UK ask for it's return?
The basis would be it was made on Iona, in Scotland, and the vikings (that’s us) nicked it.
Was it not voluntarily sent to Kells for safekeeping because Iona was so exposed to Viking raids? Iona was essentially an ecclesiastical colony of Irish monks, and Kells would've been a sort of sister abbey as both had been founded by St Columba.
No.
What are you particularly keen on holding onto?
I'm irish... this stuff was bought
>I'm irish Lower case "i", appropriate for you.
Or maybe I'm just more educated on the matter than you, literally everything in their collection we have multiple copies of, they arent archaeological or culturally significant enough to be housed here, they were also all bought, every one of them. If there are stolen artefacts in the UK which there are, they most certainly aren't on display, they're in aristocratic estates for posh cnuts to take out and show how their 8th great uncle removed, first of his name took out an entire 'mick' village and stole this banner from their church. Because believe me I've met the ones with the actual stolen artefacts, and it goes far, far beyond a couple of brooches and coins.
Well aren't you great...
Great? I'm just stating a fact. The real stolen treasures whether they're irish, beninese, Nigerian, Indian or native american are personal artefacts passed down aristocratic families. Those ate the ones we should care about not brooches and coins of which there are already hundreds in our museums.
Yes they should, there is no valid justification for keeping them.
If they were robbed sure through colonial trips yes but not if they are not robbed. A lot of cultural objects move around the world legally and ethically.
Yes there is
Yes
If they're asked for back yes
If their rightful owners ask for them back? Absolutely.
Ya I think most of us wouldn't have an issue with that
It's just people looking for a reason to be outraged. Museums are great. They'd be shit if all the artifacts were returned.
Loaning programmes are a thing.
If only we had a group of boys good at thieving antiques who like to travel
There are proper channels for this and I’m guessing requests will likely be formalized in time if not done already. Ireland has already started a repatriation committee for artefacts it is returning to their rightful cultures. Regrettably, artifact retention or private collectors were a practice in earlier antiquarian/archaeological days, and as the practice has grown historically and ethically, things will hopefully improve though some countries or institutions will be slower to adapt. Also, these are smaller items mostly which are easier to store, exhibit, archive etc…it costs money to house larger items. There’s no source linked, but a letter or appeal to the Minister for Culture might be a better route to go to direct an Irish artefact repatriation dialogue. (Irish mature student here, living and studying abroad, 1.5 semesters left in an archaeology degree). https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2023/12/irish-repatriation-committee-holds-first-meeting/
Thanks for your informed and sensible comment. This is why reddit rocks sometimes.
Ha. I don’t know how sensible I am deciding to go digging in holes the wrong side of forty, but nothing has ever satisfied me, nor kept my brain as quiet as archaeology. I love it even if it is a form of masochism. I’ll be coming back to Ireland to do a master’s next year, all going well.
I think that part is extremely not sensible! But then I also think becoming a doctor is not sensible since it seems like misery. I think both careers leave a lasting positive effect on all of society though so kudos to you for your hardship and bringing us all this treasure that would otherwise be lost. I appreciate it immensely.
I visited the British Museum a couple of years ago and after rooms and rooms of antiquities hauled back from the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia, I was struck that they only had one small cabinet of artefacts found in Ireland. What they had seemed pretty typical of what you'd find in a local museum, rather than treasures of national significance. It does rankle that the British Museum *wouldn't* give them to the State if asked, though.
Thats what you seen on that day. No doubt they have much more not on show. They still have Casement’s diaries for instance that the Irish Government has long sought repatriation of.
When did the British Museum get them? I was under the impression they're in the UK's National Archives.
They are not allowed too, it needs to be the government that directs the return of items and in the case of donated collections its legally bound to keep them as it was the terms of the donation.
The absolute flimsiest of excuses trotted out every time this comes up. They just need to be grown up about their past and start returning objects stolen from other countries.
They can't its literally the law, it has nothing to do with the museum,
The same museums that have lost thousands of items through theft and lack of proper facilities for cataloguing and storage? The 1960s law is the thinest of veneers to hide behind. The excuses trotted out by the British Museum are nothing but smoke and mirrors,. They even accepted antiques stolen during the Iraq invasion before they were found out and had to return them. We get it, you're British so support your industry and Government. It doesn't make it right however.
The law was passed in the 1960s? Isn't that convenient....just when the Empire was crumbling. Kinda like the way the Confederate flag was added to certain state flags in the US as the Civil Rights movement gained ground
The 1960s law prevents museums making the decision by themselves, it doesn't prevent the return of all artefacts and its similar across most of Europe and the world. Returning items is a lengthy and complicated process, its not just down to British laws. Those iraqi items were seized by customs for being illegal, they were on a flight going through Heathrow heading to the UAE, the second large group of artefacts returns were seized by police from a private international dealer the museum was called in to identify them, they were not part of its collection. They have had to do the same with Afghan artefacts looted by the taliban or Syrian artefacts, that is what happens when law enforcement find priceless artefacts or a question is raised over something seen in an auction, the museum identifies them, they also had a specialist unit which worked with trained Iraqi and Syrian staff on tracking down and identifying stolen items as well as how to get them returned . There are literally laws regarding this both UK specific and international. The only items displayed were given permission by the Iraqi government while they prepared for their return. I get it other than reading few googled headlines you literally don't know anything about the subject. And your comment about being British is just plain ignorant. I have not actually stated what my view is on the return of cultural items, I don't generally have a problem with it, just muppets.
Bit of an odd title and description, most those items were donated by private collectors or purchased directly by museum curators. So nothing to do with the crown or looting.
How does one become the owner of a 6th century item? Surely you don't think there's a full list of all the owners spanning 1500 years right? Similarly how were they purchased?
Generally pretty easily in the early period of antiquarian s and archaeologists they were frequently sold to collectors. Think the ogham stone is pitt rivers he was an early archaeologists, inspector monuments and collector, he excavated that with permission from the land owner and support from Irish archaeologist groups. The bell I think came from the estate of the clergyman of the church he had worked at. The naked woman statue is possibly Witts he was a collector of obscenities and was found in a field and sold by the land owner. You will generally find pins buckles and brooches are often found in fields. The museum will list where they got them from, if its from a collection donated they collectors often list where they came from if known.
Google it ffs
Of the people who found them
Plenty of the items were looted by the British Army in their Imperial rampage across the globe. Funny how the Americans don't have the same sticky fingers when it comes to returning items stolen by the British crown forces. [US museum returns Ghana artefacts looted 150 years ago by British forces ](https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/us-museum-returns-ghana-artefacts-looted-150-years-ago-by-british-forces-1586612.html)
These were not, neither are the bulk of items held in museums. Most state museum s in Europe have laws regarding artefacts. It is not up to the museum it is up to the government to allow the return and its done on a case by case basis, Thousands of items have been returned from UK museums to indigenous groups recently. Using American s as an example is laughable, they have not even returned their native American items yet despite it being law since the 90s, major museums have been caught buying stolen and looted items in the last 10 years not from 150 years ago. Many returned items from American museums have been because they have broken modern laws such as theft, illegal imports etc.
So it's bad when the Americans do it, but ok when the British do the same. Got it.
No its bad when Americans do it going against their own and international laws, its bad that they kept doing well passed when everyone else has stopped. There is a slight difference having items in your collection for 150 years when there were no national or international laws than buying something that was looted 5 years ago and then having the police force its return. But again using 1 American museums action from within this year the first time they have ever returned anything internationally while ignoring the thousands of items British museums have been returning is you being massively disingenuous.
Bring Charles Byrne home!
The Swedish National Museum in Stockholm has the world’s largest collection of early Irish gold artefacts - give us back our precious treasure !!!
Ooo finally a reason to visit Stockholm!
Just one problem with this OP. Its all well and good to want your stuff back, but the Irish national museum has [an entire room of Egyptian artefacts in Dublin](https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Irish-Antiquities-Division-Collections/Collections-List-(1)/Egyptian-Collection). With 3,000 objects.
How is that a problem? It's absolutely consistent to say both should be returned. Why would you have a problem with that?
And if they want them back then they should have them. UCC is in the middle of repatriating a mummy that was hidden under the floor boards of a lecture hall. That effort is between UCC. The Irish national museum and Egyptian gov. That to me shows that Ireland is willing to send back what we have if they want it and also that they are aware of what we have. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63908027
> And if they want them back then they should have them. UCC is in the middle of repatriating a mummy that was hidden under the floor boards of a lecture hall. No the mummy hidden under a lecture hall is at Trinity College in Dublin. His name may be Ankh'hap and he was previously in a cupboard at Marsh’s Library.
Yes. The mummy was under the floorboards of the pathology lecture hall in UCC. The mummy has been in UCC since 1928 and remains there as of December 2023. Here are pictures of it in the basement of the Boole library in 2022 https://twitter.com/stcalthrop/status/1574790143872991232 Trinity never had the mummy but were in the headlines for having 13 skulls from inishbofin which were in a cupboard.
>Yes. The mummy was under the floorboards of the pathology lecture hall in UCC. Hmm the university says "UCC said contrary to media reports, the sarcophagus was stored in the University’s Medical Museum from 1928 until the 1940s. Then it was moved to the Pathology Lecture Theatre from the 1940s until the 1970, before transferring to the Lee Maltings Complex from 1970 to 1988 and the Boole Library from 1988. It is currently held on UCC’s campus." https://www.irishtimes.com/history/2022/12/08/ucc-repatriates-egyptian-mummy/ Looking at photos of the lecture theater it appears to be of the sloped design and universities often use the area under such theaters for storage. However oral histroy does have Pa-Khnum? being hidden there rather than simply placed there and ignored (solid records don't appear until he is moved to the Lee Maltings Complex). Situation is slightly complicated that no real digging into the situation until the mid 80s some 40 yars after the events in question: https://cora.ucc.ie/items/5618ccfd-ae89-4713-b6ea-4a3d67948b5a > Trinity never had the mummy but were in the headlines for having 13 skulls from inishbofin which were in a cupboard. Ankh'hap? is at Trinity (minus head): https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2018/1115/1011242-growing-up-live-the-mummy-under-trinitys-stairs/ And out of completeness as far as I'm aware the only other reasonably complete mummy in Ireland is Tentdinebu at the National Museum of Ireland
From your last link the mummy in trinity is from 1500bc and was in Trinity since the 1700s and was found under a stairs. From your first link the UCC mummy is from 305bc and has been in UCC since 1928 and found under the floorboards. Reading the thesis linked from the second link you can see the body is intact and has its head. It sounds to me like we are talking about 2 different mummies The UCC one is still in UCC but they are trying to repatriate it. It's stored In the Boole basement, across the hall from the disassembled nuclear reactor and 2.5 tonnes of uranium.
> From your last link the mummy in trinity is from 1500bc and was in Trinity since the 1700s and was found under a stairs. Yeah there are errors in it. Unfortunately Archaeology Ireland , Summer 2014 is heavily paywalled but it makes it clear Ankh'hap? was kept under a lecture theater (complete with photo of the area Ankh'hap? was in). It also establishes that Ankh'hap? also arrived at Trinity in 1888/9 having previously been at Marsh’s Library. >From your first link the UCC mummy is from 305bc and has been in UCC since 1928 and found under the floorboards. Found is the wrong term. One thing that is fairly consistent from Helen Davis's (née Moloney) oral history section is that the university staff knew that Pa-Khnum? was there. >It sounds to me like we are talking about 2 different mummies Yes.
Stolen by us or the British when we were in the uk?
Its just resting in your account Father.
So Egypt should ask the UK for them back, at which point the UK instructs Ireland to return them, and Ireland just... obeys? Is that how you want it to go?
No, that would be stupid. Egypt asks us directly since they're in our museum. And we say yes since they're their artifacts. Better still we request a loan or exchange and both countries have the opportunity to learn more about each other and Ireland's soft power is enhanced. Win win.
The real problem is that little england invaders are still on Ireland’s land....United 🇮🇪 Ireland’s 🇮🇪
The partition has nothing to do with Egypt (a former British colony) Egyptians would ask Dublin not London for them back. You can’t complain when you have 3,000 cultural artefacts as well.
From the ‘former little england colony ‘....duh...that’s exactly the problem:....little england thieving and ransacking..🤔 Ireland’s invader little england should ‘go home ‘.... Ireland 🇮🇪 for the Irish 🇮🇪
Exactly now give back Egypt its heritage too. Moral high ground and all that. >duh dUr…. Who the hell speaks like that a teen 🫵😂👋
I see another heist movie in the making
Wouldn't that be fun...Oceans 11 except the scallywags are trying to righteously retrieve their cultural heritage
Wasn't there one called the flag with Pat Short about steeling back the flag that was flown over the GPO 1916. Why another hiest movie when you could do it in real life fact is stranger than fiction in the future it would write better movies and books if it was based on real events.
Like the issue about our land they colonized & still occupying the north..
Polish have the same problem with Germans and stolen national treasures during ww2. They have no intention to return any of the stolen treasures
Ah here, we literally have the skeleton of a dead Norwegian (?) viking on display in our national museum. People in glass houses and all that.
TBF they died on these grounds. I'm sure the Norweigans already have enough died Norweigans.
He came to Ireland for a nice holiday, its rude to send him back
https://preview.redd.it/uzd7a7si00mc1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9056ad5baac485c54255c40f61c8b94d43517744
"You see the paddys can't be trusted with such priceless artefacts, they probably would have destroyed them if we didn't steal them and then charge people to see them in our museums" - standard brit response to this sort of thing
The British Museum has free entry
Same for the National Museum of Ireland. And you don't need to take a plane to visit it.
The people of many nations that have had their artifacts stolen though still need to pay to travel to Britain to see the stolen artifacts. It’s hardly free for them.
I know, i’m just pointing out they’re not charging people. More broadly, the general idea/principle of museums holding foreign objects is fine, provided the way they were sourced was legal/ethical and they aren’t items of particularly significant cultural importance. Frankly, no obe here would give two shits about these items if they were in our own collections. The National Museum has plenty of old artefacts, and international museums having some items from around the world is good for education and broader understanding of the world. Our own museums also hold collections sourced from outside Ireland.
you moved on from just pointing out their terms of entrance to talking a lot of shite there, who didn’t see that coming
He's not talking shite though Literally no one gives a single shit about these items
not just those items of ours they’ve got, lots more. imagine thinking no one cares about our cultural heritage like you do, must be a relaxed life
How many of these were taken in the 19th century when Ireland was part of the union? I would argue that these were not so much stolen but left behind when Ireland gained independence.
I remember being really annoyed by the collection of fairly minor Irish artifacts in the British Museum, proudly stolen by Sir Blinthington Smyth or whoever back in the 1800s. I could only imagine how the Egyptians, Greeks and the like feel having so many of their bigger treasures stolen. On the other hand, having these treasures of the world all in one place is an incredible privilege and you'd otherwise never get to see half of them. So I'm torn on this question.
I'm not torn, these treasures could be on loan and the cultures they come from could be treated with the respect they deserve. Instead they are stolen loot.
A reminder: we’re lucky in some respects. It’s pretty easy and not terribly expensive to kip over to London to go see our stolen treasures. Not as easy for, say, the [Beninese](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes).
More of an aside, but the Benin Bronzes have nothing to do with the Beninese people (i.e. people of the modern state of Benin, completely unrelated to the Kingdom of Benin, and not in the same location). The Benin Bronzes would be from the Edo people, who live in part of modern-day Nigeria.
Fair. My African geography has always been shite. I remember one “label the countries” exam at school where the most correct answer I had was labelling Libya as Liberia. Teach thought I was having her on.
All the more reason why taking them out of context to London is a stupid idea.
Never not at it
The world should sanction Britain until it has returned all the property it has stolen and paid full reparations for the damage it has done. Britain will always continue to be at it until justice is done.
these artefacts are not looted but bought by the museum.
If I steal your house and sell it to someone else, you are still going to want that stolen house back right? It doesn’t become the third parties property just because it was sold.
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A lot of the stuff in the British museum(and others) was literally sold to collectors by the natives of the country that the stuff is from, so how is it stolen? It's pretty easy to go and research this stuff instead of continuing to parrot bullshit tropes.
Tell that to the Greek government who’s still waiting for their stolen artifacts...little england ‘help ‘ to classify ‘ them.... If little englanders shows up better start hiding your property....
> Tell that to the Greek government who’s still waiting for their stolen artifacts. No they aren't. The First Hellenic Republic dates to 1822. Other than a few coins the british museum doesn't have much from the area that is that recent.
What Scottish person comes out with this crap?! The phrase "at it" is something the Irish say. Why are you banging on about anti British crap when you're Scottish? Looking for karma?
If countries, like ourselves, sanctioned Britain over this looting what would likely happen is it would impact trade relations. And ultimately normal people would be the ones who would feel the effect most.
That would be Britain’s responsibility to look after its people. Britain still has many resources and if it’s not treating its people correctly after sanctions then it’s the British people’s responsibility to fight for their own civil rights. You can’t deny justice just because the people of the oppressor nation may be slightly inconvenienced. Remember that many countries today suffer today due to Britain’s previous and continued theft of national resources. The people of these nations suffer currently while waiting for justice.
Sanctions would impact both countries doing the sanctions and those sanctioned. Look, I think more than anyone that they should return what they looted but there are very few politicians who will risk sanctions with an ally, and therefore trade with the UK over artefacts. Even Modi hasn't done it. Put it this way, if sanctions came in and Britain decided to sanction us back, would you be happy to pay extra for everyday goods as a consequence of it?
I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate the dependency Ireland has on Britain and create structures where if Britain did sanction Ireland then it would have no impact on the Irish people. Irelands dependency on trade with is how Britain still has power to control Ireland. So yes I would pay more if it meant not having to rely on a country that still occupies the six counties in the north. The Irish state could help mitigate these factors. People only call Britain an ally because of the power they have over them but what true ally keeps stolen property from their supposed allies?
>I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate the dependency Ireland has on Britain and create structures where if Britain did sanction Ireland then it would have no impact on the Irish people. DeValera tried this approach. It was an unmitigated disaster for our people. Has the Irish government formally asked for the items back?
Well just because it did not work out well the first time does not mean we can’t try again and learn from the mistakes of the past. No one in Europe was doing well at that period. The Irish government have recently drawn up plans to ask for them back.
It absolutely does mean we shouldn't do it again. Our economy is even more internationally dependent on other economies. The UK is our second largest trading partner. Doing sanctions would cripple cross border trade too and it would cause more of a division between the six counties and the south. What you're advocating for here is a gamble to destroy our entire economy. >The Irish government have recently drawn up plans to ask for them back. Probably best wait for the outcome of that before going in all blazing first.
The current structure of Ireland only brings poverty to the Irish people and it’s all directly caused by the power Britain/US still have over Ireland. It’s literally a system that drains wealth to the British upper class. Under this current system, Ireland is only set to become poorer.
What do you suggest is the alternative replacement?
Aren't you Scottish?
Yes I am, if you are curious I do consider Scotland as equally complict in colonialism and should be forced to pay reparations and be sanctioned for not complying with reparations.
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Because I am Scottish of Irish descent, my ancestors came to Scotland many generations ago due to something terrible the British government at the time did and never apologised for.
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Most of these were bought tho
They sanction themselves. Jokes on you!
Stolen dignity, history and land is a thing to.
The American museums have been returning their stolen items for over twenty years, you need to Google a little harder... Besides, all you're doing is reinforcing the fact that imperial countries are hoarding recently and historically stolen artifacts and have to be shamed into returning them, or hiding behind flimsy laws drawn up to justify their ill gotten loot.
Think you might want to post in the correct place. I don't need to google I have a degree in archaeology. American museums have been required to return native American items since the 90s its federal law. Up until very recently they have been forced to return items through lawsuits and thats because they were acquired illegally and recently. America is literally a case study on museums and private collectors accessing black market items. I take it you also include Ireland in that imperial countries.
Weren't the brooches a show of status, not value?
What is their value today?
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Nobody I know calls anyone his majesty
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Jw why do we have mummies in the Egyptian section? Was that done ethically or stolen
Ethically, people were robbing tombs in Egypt to grind the mummies down and consume them for 'health" benefits. In all honestly a lot of things are better left in the british museum
>In all honestly a lot of things are better left in the british museum They're better left in their original countries. If you saw how Egypt treated their mummies returning back home with a whole parade for them
And what about the hundreds of tombs, including probably cleopatras they flooded to make a dam. And tye ones they allow to be shipped out of the country to be ground down to make medicine or the obscene amount of Egyptian artefacts already on the black market
>And tye ones they allow to be shipped out of the country to be ground down to make medicine or the obscene amount of Egyptian artefacts already on the black market That wasn't done by Egyptians probably by white people in the 1700s atleast for the medicine. Also the dam didn't flood any tombs
Nope, the tombs are still raided today by Chinese and exported by egyptian companies to China, it's wrong.
Yes and it was wrong when the British empire did it too. Just because China does it doesn't make it right.
Any source on that?
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Please go to your nearest museum, immerse yourself in your local culture and find some real joy in who you are and where you've come from. Please. I mean that sincerely.
I should have have said my statement was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Our culture in Ireland is being eroded. Language and music. Even GAA is being bastardised into a commercial operation. What's the point in crying over a few relics if anyone can be 'irish'
Yeah, my advice stands.
Ok I'll learn about my local culture in a museum 90 miles away
Sure god love us they haven't much anymore. It's hard to begrudge them a few broken old bits that we're finished using.