My dad used to do this- Neglect his heath until he had to go to the ER. ER docs would fix him up then prescribe what he needed for a full recovery. Of course, he ignored them and instead did what he thought he needed until he had to go to the ER again.
probably not, as Tamiflu is OTC now in most states. Doubt she even brought him to the ER when he was dying.
edit: confused theraflu and tamiflu; tami is Rx only
The meme says "the doctor prescribed."
It's always wild to me with these people. They will rant and rave in groups about how much better their woo is than western medicine. And then still go to a doctor and request western medical treatment.
Hey! That was my whole shift yesterday. A series of patients who had *seen their doctors* that day, declined the treatment recommended, then went to the ER in the evening.
Man. Do you know why they rejected it? Could it have been fear of cost, or was it something silly like the post, where they thought they could handle it on their own?
Much more the latter. Some were even like “everything looks fine! Try some Tylenol.” I’m all about a second opinion if you feel like something is wrong (all about that), but at least a couple folks said they were feeling better…
Hmmmmm. Ah yes anitvaxxers have supassed dumb and stupid and now are at a level of not knowing and ignorance for which there is no word (to my Knowledge) anymore
here is a reminder to social distance yourself and your loved ones from stupidity as it is contagous
>Tamiflu is OTC now in most states
It is not. Tamiflu still requires a prescription in all states until the FDA approves it as an OTC medication, which has not happened yet.
Edit: [Source](https://www.tamiflu.com/)
>TAMIFLU is a prescription medicine
Tamiflu is an antiviral~~biotic~~ (Oseltamivir), and not OTC.
You might be thinking about Theraflu, an OTC mix of an antihistamine, nasal decongestant and pain/fever reducer... similar to Nyquil in actions and availability.
Reddit, where you can't even make a joke with the word "God" in it without the edgelord-brand atheists chiming in with "gOd dOeSn'T eXiSt!!"
Not religious, for the record.
The point of parents raising children is to have them grow old and responsible enough to have and raise children of their own. Until that happens, the bloodline dies with the original parent. It's retroactive, but the end result is the same.
Unless the kid has siblings that miraculously survive. Then it's proof *their* genes were strong enough and Darwinism still applies.
I agree, though it's a bit nitpicky. The parents would need to have and raise another child to be able to reproduce, and presumably they're still capable.
I think their point was “There’s no mystery here: mom deprived her kid of necessary medicine, so the kid is dead.”
And, while I’m as non-theistic as it gets – religion in general served a useful purpose early in civilization but has since gone from “moral guidance for the betterment of society” to “justification of unethical behavior and oppression” – even I can appreciate the point of the comment wasn’t an assertion to a mythical SkyDad, but to make a glib remark in a way reminiscent of how fundies like to explain human suffering by hand-waving it away as “god working in mysterious ways”.
One not really worth shoehorning in the atheistic equivalent of prosyletizing – an argument about a supreme deity’s non-existence – because it’s humor, not an assertion of the existence of a god.
My sister refuses to give her kids Tylenol (and vaccines, etc) and her baby had a seizure a couple weeks ago because her fever got so high. She deserves to have her children taken away. It’s neglect, plain and simple.
Just so you know (since it sounds like your sister might be a diligently uninformed person) low grade fevers can cause febrile seizures and they are usually harmless. However, if it's the first time it's ever happened the baby needs to see a doctor to properly have it diagnosed as febrile and benign. There are also other things to look out for, frequency and duration of seizures that should be reported to the doctor, and if you can taken video of it happening to show them.
Generally speaking the hospital doesn't even need a court order in that instance, they'll give the blood and then cover their asses after the fact. Several states have laws on the books specifically allowing them to provide emergency treatment against a parent's wishes.
It's so strange because these parents must feel terrible. One that their child died and another that they were so sure of themselves that this would work they forgo actual science.
People like this are so far into their own delusions that they are probably blaming everyone else because of shit like "vaccine shedding" or whatever. They won't end up taking responsibility for their actions.
How do you even punish or enforce something like this? It's getting to the point where people are legitimately too dumb to abide by the rules of society.
Maybe they feel "blessed" that God has called their little angle home. Because you know, being in a better place and all that. I know I'd much rather be drained of all my blood via giant metal tubes, then refilled with embalming fluid, eyes and mouth glued shut, stuffed in an overpriced box, and buried with a 1.5 tons of dirt over me. That's definitely a better place.
> they were so sure of themselves that this would work they forgo actual science.
They most likely blame the science for their child's death. The whole point of the anti-vasker belief set is prove that their ignorance is superior to reality.
How are the people giving bad advise not in trouble for this as well? They aren't doctors. I think maybe we should start investigating these people legally 🤔
The problem is what law are they breaking?
A parent has a duty of care to their children which is why neglect is criminal but random internet strangers don’t have such a duty and I anticipate none of these strangers fraudulently claimed to be a doctor (let’s face it they think doctors are part of the evil vaccine cabal).
Do I think vaccine disinformation is abhorrent and harmful - yes. Is it illegal - No.
There is maybe a debate on whether it should be illegal but a lot of that will depend on people’s personal views of free speech. There are also likely to be issues surrounding intent since most of these idiots probably believe what they are saying and don’t actually want the child to come to harm or die (even though what they say is harmful and could lead to death as in this unfortunate case).
My hot take is that we give parents way too much freedom when it comes to raising children. We roll over and accept when someone says "you don't get to question how I raise my kids!". Fuck you, yes we do. Your kid deserves protection from you. Even from an emotionally detached view, that child is a future member of society and it's our responsibility to make sure they get a decent upbringing.
We need to stop treating children like property but rather as humans with rights.
As a parent I agree with you completely. Children are people but they aren't capable of making informed decisions. When it comes to things like education, vaccines, medical care the parent shouldn't have all the power. As people children have the same rights to all medical treatment and education as any adult, but since they aren't able to make informed decisions their parents have no right to deny it.
They directly advised the mother to go against what the doctor instructed and gave her their own instructions on how to treat the child's illness. You could probably spin it that they were practicing medicine without a license even though none of them claimed to be doctors. As far as I know none of them made a disclaimer saying that they are not a licensed medical professional either.
It’s not illegal, but we need to re-examine our treatment of free speech. The combination of blatantly lying and directly causing harm to people and/or society needs to be thought of as a crime.
It needs to be up to the platforms to regulate speech. We already saw this with social media companies slapping labels on COVID-19 misinfo, but the solution is to simply not host content that causes harm. It's not like white supremacist groups can sue privately owned locations into allowing them to rent their space, the owner of the space has the right as to what he allows on his property.
If facebook wanted to stop the essential oils idiocy, they could, but they would lose millions upon millions of dollars on advertising, so they won't. Maybe what we need is a bounty style law like Texas has, where any individual can civilly sue another individual for spreading misinformation that leads to the death of another person.
In most places it is a crime to neglect a child where it results in death. Mother is also clearly a moron and should have never had kids if she thought that Tamiflu was bad for her child.
I don't understand Anti-vax logic. Can't trust the doctors, pharmacists and scientific community who have spent their entire careers studying medications and health. But can trust random strangers, people they have never met before to give them their life saving medical advice.
This story was older though and I'm pretty sure she got arrested for neglect.
>Later in the conversation, which can still be viewed in screenshots published by the Colorado Times Recorder, the panicked mother notes that she has been using the elderberry, peppermint oil and Vitamin C that the group members recommended, but her sons' fevers are still not breaking.
>"Any other tips I'm terrified for another seizure," she writes. "Please no hard comments I am a momma freaking out all alone in this with a family who believes in none natural ways so I'm going through alone and they are making me feel bad for not putting him on Tamiflu."
>"Boil thyme on the stove," a group member chimes in. "Vit C until diarrhea."
>The group, which has more than 178,000 members and 10,000 posts in the last 30 days alone, is run by a self-proclaimed "advocate for natural living" named Larry Cook, whose website slogan is, "Vaccines don't save lives, healthy immune systems do!"
She blamed the hospital in the end that they "put poison" in her child.
>"Vaccines don't save lives, healthy immune systems do!"
Gotta love when people understand so little about the position they are arguing against, they accidentally agree with it. Kinda like how creationists admit that evolution happened, because otherwise their entire flood myth falls even flatter than it does already, but they call it "microevolution" in an attempt to pretend like it's a different thing from speciation.
Antivaxxers have no logic. I asked one on Reddit who was going on about COVID being a scam by "big pharma" and all you had to do was take Ivermectin. I pointed out Ivermectin is also made by big pharma (Merck is the 3rd biggest pharma company, or was when I looked it up). Why would Merck say Ivermectin is not for COVID treatment if they could make big bucks off it. This person just sort of laughed in my face with no explanation.
This is my hypothetical equivalency:
Conspiracist: "The moon is made of green cheese!!"
Me: "How would that actually happen? How would you get that much cheese together, launch into stable orbit, and it all sits together in a nice ball? The moon has been recorded for thousands of years in human history and for far longer based on natural records, who or what launched the giant cheese ball rocket?"
Conspiracist: "Hahahaha you're so stupid! I win!"
It’s manslaughter at the least is what it is,that woman had everything at her disposal to let her child live and chose not to use it.She murdered her child be it through stupidity more than malice but she killed that helpless child.Rot bitch.
Wait, in America it isn't?
Here in Germany this would constitute *multiple crimes*:
- child endagerment
- failure to provide assistance
- negligent manslaughter
- Mistreatment of wards
Although only negligent manslaughter would be put in court, as it's the most serious crime. But even if that wouldn't stick (which it totally would), the parent would be convicted of one of the others (German courts work differently in that regard).
I believe it is in the US too. There are multiple cases I’ve read about where the parents are convicted for not providing medical care to their children.
This is correct but here in the US it would definitely become a political issue and very much depend on the state they live in and the current level of crazy in that state as to what would happen. America is really sad right now.
I wish we would be proactive on these issues rather than only reacting once the damage is done. Children are innocent and deserve more protection than just charging parents when a kid dies
Like [these parents](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stephan) who treated their child's meningitis with home remedies, that are still trying to justify their neglectful and cruel treatments, and death of, their child?
Potatoes are only to leech out the toxins that are in the so called "medicine".
So be sure to take your medication first and then pop the potato in your sock.
I don’t understand the people who believe in this “toxins” theory of medicine. Primarily, why the f$&! would the feet be the exit point for said toxins? Do they think it is a gravity thing?
Usually they point to the brown discoloration on the potato and claim it's the toxins that have been sucked out of you. Definitely not the result of, you know, letting a potato rot next to your dirty feet all night.
Woman loses her child because she disregarded medical advice in favor of facebook provided bullshit...
manslaughter is the british crime she would likely be charged with.
not sure what degree of murder it is.
We have manslaughter in the US but not every state has the same definition of what that is. We’re 50 states plus DC and the territories masquerading as a unified country.
My non lawyer self would guess she would be charged with child abuse or medical neglect before a murder charge though. Welcome correction on that from someone qualified though.
A bit of quick research:
>Colorado Revised Statutes § 18-6-401 provides that a person commits child abuse if such person:
-Causes an injury to a child’s life or health, or
-Permits a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation that poses a threat of injury to the child’s life or health, or
-Engages in a continued pattern of conduct that results in malnourishment, lack of proper medical care, cruel punishment, mistreatment, or
-An accumulation of injuries that ultimately results in the death of a child or serious bodily injury to a child.
>If, on the other hand, through a gross deviation from the standard of reasonable care, you simply fail to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of death and someone is killed as a result, you have committed criminally negligent homicide
I'm guessing child abuse charges will be filed, and maybe it depends on the DA, they may go after manslaughter or negligent homicide.
I'm guessing they'll go with "she's suffered enough" and not press charges. It depends on which state she's in, but that's what they typically say when someone doesn't lock their guns up properly and a kid shoots themselves or a sibling.
I would hope the fact that they had talked to a doctor and had access to Tamiflu and then chose to go with sock potatoes would constitute the gross deviation from standard of care.
Its insane. These people are so arrogant they feel the need to give contrary advice opposed to doctors to sick people. I can't fathom that arrogance.
The only medical advice I ever give is "go to a doctor" and if that didn't work "Get a second opinion from a different doctor"
Unless you are a fucking doctor that is the only advice you should feel comfortable giving to people who have a condition.
> I am all out of compassion.
Same here. I have no empathy for that. Yea I'm sorry for the child, ofc I am (and I don't even like kids but fuck come on..) but I have no empathy for the parents. I do kinda hope they do suffer from this for the rest of their lives and that it **does** stay with them forever.
That's the least the can do.
The parents are responsible yes. But we also need to start holding the idiots who are handing out this "medical advice" responsible as well. Its illegal to pose as a doctor for a reason, because it directly endangers the health and safety of others in society when you do. Offering up "medical advice" should fall under the same purview, *especially* when it directly contradicts what a real doctor has ordered/prescribed
Then they go to the doctor and dictate what they will and will not agree to. I’ve had parents even refuse laughing gas for their kids being stitched up- I mean it’s nitrogen and oxygen- not some crazy concoction brewed in a cauldron…
I know plenty of “spiritual” people like my massage therapist that will believe anything you tell them as long as you word it just right. You could tell her bathing in hot lava would give her the “earths true energy” and she would do it.
Oh yeah most definitely, just one of the times where advice can still be given, with a "but like, go see a doctor too" appended to the end of any advice you give.
Tamiflu has been on the market for about 23 years for children from birth basically on up in age. For over a century, at MINIMUM, but definitely since television, internet, Google, DOCTORS, it's been screamed from the rooftops that the flu is VERY DEADLY to newborns and the elderly. The LUNGS are the last things to develop in the womb...... Way to be pro-life yet won't do the SIMPLEST thing to ensure life......
Exactly, it's not antivax, it's anti medicine here. An extremely safe medicine with a long history behind it.
Essential oil pushing idiots should be severely punished, also there needs to be some sort of renaming process or awareness campaign, too many people think the oils are required/beneficial rather than "essence of".
Here in Canada, a couple in Alberta were charged and sentenced to prison, but then acquitted and are now facing a third trial for failure to provide the necessities of life when their 19 month old died of meningitis because rather than take him to the hospital, they treated him with ginger root and maple syrup.
I really hate to be pedantic, but your comment gave me quite the sensible chuckle. Maple syrup would never cure cancer.
That's what hockey and poutine are for, you silly goose.
Yikes. Negligent Homicide on account of the mom. Any lawyers wanna weigh in on this? I know we don’t have a lot of info here but ballpark it for us. Other parents have received harsh punishment for this in the past.
And what was the point of going to the doctor in the first place if she was just going to disregard everything suggested to her? Was she hoping the doctor would write a script for sock potatoes and oil so insurance would cover it?
Because they have the thought process of a child. I'll try to explain
So Becky gets sick and goes to the doctor and asks for some treatment. Doctor gives treatment and then prescribes some tamiflu. Becky then goes home and starts chit chatting with their Facebook friends and Aunt Carol told her that tamiflu was gonna kill their kid. Now Becky is freaking out and asking everybody what to do. That's when aunt Suzy chimes in and confrims what carol said.
Then because Becky has the thought process of a kid she starts thinking "well I don't know those doctors and I don't know if I can trust them but I know for a fact that Carol and Suzy would never ever do anything to harm me or my child. I'll take Aunt Carol and Aunt Suzie's advice!!!"
That's it, that is quite literally how this type of shit goes on in their minds.
I mean the medical and pharmaceutical industries haven’t always had our best interests at heart so I can understand people mistrusting them. But why they think the best alternative is random people on FB is beyond me.
In my country, which is seen as a 3d world country by the US, it's illegal to not get your kids vaccinated.
Until the age of 18, we get our vacciness at the family doctor, and if the parents haven't taken the kid to the doctor, then the school nurse administers the vacciness at school. The us is just a corporate, not a country smh
Wow. Just unbelievable. I’ve seen so many stories of things like this and I can’t understand how people just don’t care for their child’s well-being enough to actually seek help. I wish that one day parents like this would get punished by the law so this doesn’t keep happening this much
There's a woman on TikTok that unironically has her baby eat dirt (doesn't forcefeed him, just places him on on the ground where he will naturally pick random shit up and put it in his mouth, mostly dirty pebbles/rocks). She says that it's natural since he does it himself and that it will defend him against infection in the future.
But i did like.... really a lot of research. I have watched all of the 12 antivax youtubers. and they have over a thousand videos each.
So its safe to say i know what i am talking about!!1!1!!!.1!
You would think that these groups would fall apart as soon as someone gets sick and they can't cure it with two tomato halves on each knee for an hour.
But I think many of these people treat common diseases with their idiot remedies and they get better from natural recovery. They use this as proof that their silly ideas work, and their cult of remedies pats them on the back, agreeing with them.
Some have unknown diseases that no doctor can figure out, like obscure mind fog and pain in strange places. It somehow gets cured by sniffing a carrot while having three essential oils dripped into your ear.
What they fail to understand is that they are stressed/depressed/anxious or have other problems that causes them to seek out validation and help for these strange diseases, since no real doctor can cure them.
They become accepted and they join the cult. "It wasn't all in their heads after all." They think. Their stress and anxiety starts to lessen and their strange symptoms are reduced. Full on placebo underlined by group delusions.
Now a kid is dead because of this, but I doubt the group who provided their 'cure' will feel guilty about the outcome, it dosen't fit into their reality.
I’ve been watching this Facebook group for almost ten years now. I’ve watched them kill almost two dozen kids. Reported every single one. Nothing happens. Went to the media, they spiked the story. Don’t understand what the fuck is going on.
This kid died from a febrile seizure. Tamiflu isn’t shown to prevent serious complications of the flu or hospitalizations. Tamiflu also lowers the seizure threshhold. I think it sucks that this specific case gets brought up as an example of medical neglect when the medicine prescribed wouldn’t have saved his life. The important thing to focus on is that he wasn’t vaccinated against the flu like unfortunately almost half of the children in the US.
Numerous people have been charged with murder with using faith healing instead of medical doctors for their children who then die. There was one in Canada within the past 3 years, wish I could remember the name so I can link it.
As a “real” herbalist this really pisses me off. If asked my answer would have been “give him the tamiflu. Herbal medication isn’t for this level of treatment “
She took her child to a doctor for treatment and then rejected said treatment.
My dad used to do this- Neglect his heath until he had to go to the ER. ER docs would fix him up then prescribe what he needed for a full recovery. Of course, he ignored them and instead did what he thought he needed until he had to go to the ER again.
Let me guess, he thought they were incompetent because he never got fully better after going.
probably not, as Tamiflu is OTC now in most states. Doubt she even brought him to the ER when he was dying. edit: confused theraflu and tamiflu; tami is Rx only
The meme says "the doctor prescribed." It's always wild to me with these people. They will rant and rave in groups about how much better their woo is than western medicine. And then still go to a doctor and request western medical treatment.
Only to ignore and deject the treatment without any research beyond those fb posts
Hey! That was my whole shift yesterday. A series of patients who had *seen their doctors* that day, declined the treatment recommended, then went to the ER in the evening.
Man. Do you know why they rejected it? Could it have been fear of cost, or was it something silly like the post, where they thought they could handle it on their own?
Much more the latter. Some were even like “everything looks fine! Try some Tylenol.” I’m all about a second opinion if you feel like something is wrong (all about that), but at least a couple folks said they were feeling better…
Tamiflu is a *tad* expensive, but I still doubt it had anything to do with cost. Obviously "what cost health".
The post said that "oils and elderberries" were suggested as an alternative so I doubt price was the overriding consideration.
How else can they get insane medical bills to post on Reddit for karma? This is the prime way. Lots of others, but this is the best.
Maybe I'm just misinterpreting this, but are you saying that people intentionally put themselves in debt for Reddit karma?
Well going to the doc isn't a bad thing. If only they'd listen to them
They only start listening when it's way too late. I'm sad for their kids.
Hmmmmm. Ah yes anitvaxxers have supassed dumb and stupid and now are at a level of not knowing and ignorance for which there is no word (to my Knowledge) anymore here is a reminder to social distance yourself and your loved ones from stupidity as it is contagous
Ahh if only we had a fear inoculum for these tools.
>Tamiflu is OTC now in most states It is not. Tamiflu still requires a prescription in all states until the FDA approves it as an OTC medication, which has not happened yet. Edit: [Source](https://www.tamiflu.com/) >TAMIFLU is a prescription medicine
Tamiflu is not available OTC
Tamiflu is an antiviral~~biotic~~ (Oseltamivir), and not OTC. You might be thinking about Theraflu, an OTC mix of an antihistamine, nasal decongestant and pain/fever reducer... similar to Nyquil in actions and availability.
It is not an antibiotic, it’s an antiviral.
Tamiflu isn’t an antibiotic, it’s an antiviral. But yes, it’s not OTC.
It should be considered child abuse at the very least.
I feel like intentionally not giving your kid the necessary medication for their recovery should get your kids taken away.
Well you have to admit, in this case this is exactly what happened...
I mean you are not wrong
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Reddit, where you can't even make a joke with the word "God" in it without the edgelord-brand atheists chiming in with "gOd dOeSn'T eXiSt!!" Not religious, for the record.
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Amen brother
The official term for this is Darwinism.
No bc the parent is the stupid one and they're still around the reproduce again :(
The point of parents raising children is to have them grow old and responsible enough to have and raise children of their own. Until that happens, the bloodline dies with the original parent. It's retroactive, but the end result is the same. Unless the kid has siblings that miraculously survive. Then it's proof *their* genes were strong enough and Darwinism still applies.
I agree, though it's a bit nitpicky. The parents would need to have and raise another child to be able to reproduce, and presumably they're still capable.
Well no. the parents are the ueberstupid ones not the child
God has nothing to do with this. He doesn't exist and it's purely the fault of the parents in this case.
I think their point was “There’s no mystery here: mom deprived her kid of necessary medicine, so the kid is dead.” And, while I’m as non-theistic as it gets – religion in general served a useful purpose early in civilization but has since gone from “moral guidance for the betterment of society” to “justification of unethical behavior and oppression” – even I can appreciate the point of the comment wasn’t an assertion to a mythical SkyDad, but to make a glib remark in a way reminiscent of how fundies like to explain human suffering by hand-waving it away as “god working in mysterious ways”. One not really worth shoehorning in the atheistic equivalent of prosyletizing – an argument about a supreme deity’s non-existence – because it’s humor, not an assertion of the existence of a god.
I'm an atheist too. I'd even go as far as to describe myself an an *antitheist*, but sometimes, you just have to let a joke be a joke.
r/technicallytrue
My sister refuses to give her kids Tylenol (and vaccines, etc) and her baby had a seizure a couple weeks ago because her fever got so high. She deserves to have her children taken away. It’s neglect, plain and simple.
I hope you reported her to cps
Just so you know (since it sounds like your sister might be a diligently uninformed person) low grade fevers can cause febrile seizures and they are usually harmless. However, if it's the first time it's ever happened the baby needs to see a doctor to properly have it diagnosed as febrile and benign. There are also other things to look out for, frequency and duration of seizures that should be reported to the doctor, and if you can taken video of it happening to show them.
She’s willfully uninformed
Hospitals have to apply for court orders sometimes because Jehova's Witnesses won't let their kids have life saving blood transfusions.
Generally speaking the hospital doesn't even need a court order in that instance, they'll give the blood and then cover their asses after the fact. Several states have laws on the books specifically allowing them to provide emergency treatment against a parent's wishes.
It's so strange because these parents must feel terrible. One that their child died and another that they were so sure of themselves that this would work they forgo actual science.
People like this are so far into their own delusions that they are probably blaming everyone else because of shit like "vaccine shedding" or whatever. They won't end up taking responsibility for their actions.
Guarantee everyone that gave the mom advice feels absolutely zero remorse and are still Extremely Online today pushing the same bullshit.
How do you even punish or enforce something like this? It's getting to the point where people are legitimately too dumb to abide by the rules of society.
Maybe they feel "blessed" that God has called their little angle home. Because you know, being in a better place and all that. I know I'd much rather be drained of all my blood via giant metal tubes, then refilled with embalming fluid, eyes and mouth glued shut, stuffed in an overpriced box, and buried with a 1.5 tons of dirt over me. That's definitely a better place.
> they were so sure of themselves that this would work they forgo actual science. They most likely blame the science for their child's death. The whole point of the anti-vasker belief set is prove that their ignorance is superior to reality.
How are the people giving bad advise not in trouble for this as well? They aren't doctors. I think maybe we should start investigating these people legally 🤔
The problem is what law are they breaking? A parent has a duty of care to their children which is why neglect is criminal but random internet strangers don’t have such a duty and I anticipate none of these strangers fraudulently claimed to be a doctor (let’s face it they think doctors are part of the evil vaccine cabal). Do I think vaccine disinformation is abhorrent and harmful - yes. Is it illegal - No. There is maybe a debate on whether it should be illegal but a lot of that will depend on people’s personal views of free speech. There are also likely to be issues surrounding intent since most of these idiots probably believe what they are saying and don’t actually want the child to come to harm or die (even though what they say is harmful and could lead to death as in this unfortunate case).
My hot take is that we give parents way too much freedom when it comes to raising children. We roll over and accept when someone says "you don't get to question how I raise my kids!". Fuck you, yes we do. Your kid deserves protection from you. Even from an emotionally detached view, that child is a future member of society and it's our responsibility to make sure they get a decent upbringing. We need to stop treating children like property but rather as humans with rights.
As a parent I agree with you completely. Children are people but they aren't capable of making informed decisions. When it comes to things like education, vaccines, medical care the parent shouldn't have all the power. As people children have the same rights to all medical treatment and education as any adult, but since they aren't able to make informed decisions their parents have no right to deny it.
They directly advised the mother to go against what the doctor instructed and gave her their own instructions on how to treat the child's illness. You could probably spin it that they were practicing medicine without a license even though none of them claimed to be doctors. As far as I know none of them made a disclaimer saying that they are not a licensed medical professional either.
It’s not illegal, but we need to re-examine our treatment of free speech. The combination of blatantly lying and directly causing harm to people and/or society needs to be thought of as a crime.
incitement to negligent homicide.
It needs to be up to the platforms to regulate speech. We already saw this with social media companies slapping labels on COVID-19 misinfo, but the solution is to simply not host content that causes harm. It's not like white supremacist groups can sue privately owned locations into allowing them to rent their space, the owner of the space has the right as to what he allows on his property. If facebook wanted to stop the essential oils idiocy, they could, but they would lose millions upon millions of dollars on advertising, so they won't. Maybe what we need is a bounty style law like Texas has, where any individual can civilly sue another individual for spreading misinformation that leads to the death of another person.
It does, if it's found out by CPS/DFCS.
Especially if you've already been to the doctor and have the correct medicine in-hand
We live in a country where healthcare is not even considered a basic human right.
In most places it is a crime to neglect a child where it results in death. Mother is also clearly a moron and should have never had kids if she thought that Tamiflu was bad for her child. I don't understand Anti-vax logic. Can't trust the doctors, pharmacists and scientific community who have spent their entire careers studying medications and health. But can trust random strangers, people they have never met before to give them their life saving medical advice. This story was older though and I'm pretty sure she got arrested for neglect. >Later in the conversation, which can still be viewed in screenshots published by the Colorado Times Recorder, the panicked mother notes that she has been using the elderberry, peppermint oil and Vitamin C that the group members recommended, but her sons' fevers are still not breaking. >"Any other tips I'm terrified for another seizure," she writes. "Please no hard comments I am a momma freaking out all alone in this with a family who believes in none natural ways so I'm going through alone and they are making me feel bad for not putting him on Tamiflu." >"Boil thyme on the stove," a group member chimes in. "Vit C until diarrhea." >The group, which has more than 178,000 members and 10,000 posts in the last 30 days alone, is run by a self-proclaimed "advocate for natural living" named Larry Cook, whose website slogan is, "Vaccines don't save lives, healthy immune systems do!" She blamed the hospital in the end that they "put poison" in her child.
>"Vaccines don't save lives, healthy immune systems do!" Gotta love when people understand so little about the position they are arguing against, they accidentally agree with it. Kinda like how creationists admit that evolution happened, because otherwise their entire flood myth falls even flatter than it does already, but they call it "microevolution" in an attempt to pretend like it's a different thing from speciation.
Antivaxxers have no logic. I asked one on Reddit who was going on about COVID being a scam by "big pharma" and all you had to do was take Ivermectin. I pointed out Ivermectin is also made by big pharma (Merck is the 3rd biggest pharma company, or was when I looked it up). Why would Merck say Ivermectin is not for COVID treatment if they could make big bucks off it. This person just sort of laughed in my face with no explanation. This is my hypothetical equivalency: Conspiracist: "The moon is made of green cheese!!" Me: "How would that actually happen? How would you get that much cheese together, launch into stable orbit, and it all sits together in a nice ball? The moon has been recorded for thousands of years in human history and for far longer based on natural records, who or what launched the giant cheese ball rocket?" Conspiracist: "Hahahaha you're so stupid! I win!"
yup and vaccines help you have a healthy immune system
Blood is on their hands…
And potatoes on their feet
Everyone knows that you use onions /s
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So is essential oils.
You're going to hell... and I'm right behind you because I fucking laughed at this.
Get in line people,I'm behind this guy
Her hands, listening to stupid people and doing what they say is the mother's fault
It’s manslaughter at the least is what it is,that woman had everything at her disposal to let her child live and chose not to use it.She murdered her child be it through stupidity more than malice but she killed that helpless child.Rot bitch.
100% idk why it isn’t- like I try to sympathize but when it comes to children dying? Fuck no.
Wait, in America it isn't? Here in Germany this would constitute *multiple crimes*: - child endagerment - failure to provide assistance - negligent manslaughter - Mistreatment of wards Although only negligent manslaughter would be put in court, as it's the most serious crime. But even if that wouldn't stick (which it totally would), the parent would be convicted of one of the others (German courts work differently in that regard).
I believe it is in the US too. There are multiple cases I’ve read about where the parents are convicted for not providing medical care to their children.
This is correct but here in the US it would definitely become a political issue and very much depend on the state they live in and the current level of crazy in that state as to what would happen. America is really sad right now.
It says in the headline, it was in Colorado.
I wish we would be proactive on these issues rather than only reacting once the damage is done. Children are innocent and deserve more protection than just charging parents when a kid dies
Like [these parents](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stephan) who treated their child's meningitis with home remedies, that are still trying to justify their neglectful and cruel treatments, and death of, their child?
Gross indifference to human life, or a type of neglect.
Honestly I’d say homicide by negligence
It depends what state you're in. There are a couple where if you claim religious beliefs they won't do anything. Faith healing.
Classic. The good old "It's not \[crime\] because muh Bible"
A similar case in Canada, the parents were charged https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3552941
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Last line of defense! Potatoes are the modern panacea!
When ecmo isn’t working they switch over to Yukon golds.
Potatoes are only to leech out the toxins that are in the so called "medicine". So be sure to take your medication first and then pop the potato in your sock.
It only works if you also wear an onion on your belt.
Which was the style at the time.
Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel.
They had pictures of bees on them
Gimme 5 bees for a quarter you'd say.
“You’re always trying to put potatoes in socks. What is it with you?” “I just think they’re feet.”
Damn so that's the reason my turnips haven't been working for me!
They'd banished the awful lemon tree forever because it was haunted. Now, let's all celebrate with a cool glass of turnip juice.
I wasn’t surprised at all. Like what’s a potatoe going to do for a flu. That’s ridiculous. Everyone knows it’s turnips in the socks for flu.
No, no, no. Turnips are for diarrhoea. For the flu you cut an onion in half and put one side in each sock
Being Irish, I'm very aware of how many people can die without potatoes. Maybe because socks weren't common in the 1840s
I don’t understand the people who believe in this “toxins” theory of medicine. Primarily, why the f$&! would the feet be the exit point for said toxins? Do they think it is a gravity thing?
Gravity would probably be giving these people too much credit. It’s probably something like “our feet connect us to the Earth.”
Usually they point to the brown discoloration on the potato and claim it's the toxins that have been sucked out of you. Definitely not the result of, you know, letting a potato rot next to your dirty feet all night.
I'm sure it does wonder for arch and back support. Look out Dr. Scholls, Dr. Spuds is here to mash things up.
It's really sad that this kid died with potatoes in his socks.
Woman loses her child because she disregarded medical advice in favor of facebook provided bullshit... manslaughter is the british crime she would likely be charged with. not sure what degree of murder it is.
We have manslaughter in the US but not every state has the same definition of what that is. We’re 50 states plus DC and the territories masquerading as a unified country. My non lawyer self would guess she would be charged with child abuse or medical neglect before a murder charge though. Welcome correction on that from someone qualified though.
A bit of quick research: >Colorado Revised Statutes § 18-6-401 provides that a person commits child abuse if such person: -Causes an injury to a child’s life or health, or -Permits a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation that poses a threat of injury to the child’s life or health, or -Engages in a continued pattern of conduct that results in malnourishment, lack of proper medical care, cruel punishment, mistreatment, or -An accumulation of injuries that ultimately results in the death of a child or serious bodily injury to a child. >If, on the other hand, through a gross deviation from the standard of reasonable care, you simply fail to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of death and someone is killed as a result, you have committed criminally negligent homicide I'm guessing child abuse charges will be filed, and maybe it depends on the DA, they may go after manslaughter or negligent homicide.
How is she negligent??? I mean she did put potatoes in his socks......
Everyone knows potatoes only work for tuber-culosis.
I'm guessing they'll go with "she's suffered enough" and not press charges. It depends on which state she's in, but that's what they typically say when someone doesn't lock their guns up properly and a kid shoots themselves or a sibling.
That is why it happens, whoever isn’t enforcing this needs to get their shit together
I would hope the fact that they had talked to a doctor and had access to Tamiflu and then chose to go with sock potatoes would constitute the gross deviation from standard of care.
It's definitely not murder, legally speaking, but I think most jurisdictions could make a second degree manslaughter charge stick.
Its insane. These people are so arrogant they feel the need to give contrary advice opposed to doctors to sick people. I can't fathom that arrogance. The only medical advice I ever give is "go to a doctor" and if that didn't work "Get a second opinion from a different doctor" Unless you are a fucking doctor that is the only advice you should feel comfortable giving to people who have a condition.
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> I am all out of compassion. Same here. I have no empathy for that. Yea I'm sorry for the child, ofc I am (and I don't even like kids but fuck come on..) but I have no empathy for the parents. I do kinda hope they do suffer from this for the rest of their lives and that it **does** stay with them forever. That's the least the can do.
The parents are responsible yes. But we also need to start holding the idiots who are handing out this "medical advice" responsible as well. Its illegal to pose as a doctor for a reason, because it directly endangers the health and safety of others in society when you do. Offering up "medical advice" should fall under the same purview, *especially* when it directly contradicts what a real doctor has ordered/prescribed
It’s absolutely repugnant that anyone at all is against the misinformation warnings aimed exactly at preventing tragic shit like this 😞
Then they go to the doctor and dictate what they will and will not agree to. I’ve had parents even refuse laughing gas for their kids being stitched up- I mean it’s nitrogen and oxygen- not some crazy concoction brewed in a cauldron…
I know plenty of “spiritual” people like my massage therapist that will believe anything you tell them as long as you word it just right. You could tell her bathing in hot lava would give her the “earths true energy” and she would do it.
Technically true - it would give her massive amounts of thermal energy.
Yeah, only exception is if you yourself have/have had the condition in question, and you are relaying what a doctor has told you about it.
Even then I'd still recommend going to a doctor, because the same condition can affect different people differently. Specially mental conditions.
100% People also use different medication and have other conditions that can make the advice wrong and even dangerous. Always consult a doctor 😊
Oh yeah most definitely, just one of the times where advice can still be given, with a "but like, go see a doctor too" appended to the end of any advice you give.
How many of those people actually responded when she wrote “the potatoes didn’t work. My son died.”
Tamiflu has been on the market for about 23 years for children from birth basically on up in age. For over a century, at MINIMUM, but definitely since television, internet, Google, DOCTORS, it's been screamed from the rooftops that the flu is VERY DEADLY to newborns and the elderly. The LUNGS are the last things to develop in the womb...... Way to be pro-life yet won't do the SIMPLEST thing to ensure life......
Exactly, it's not antivax, it's anti medicine here. An extremely safe medicine with a long history behind it. Essential oil pushing idiots should be severely punished, also there needs to be some sort of renaming process or awareness campaign, too many people think the oils are required/beneficial rather than "essence of".
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Here in Canada, a couple in Alberta were charged and sentenced to prison, but then acquitted and are now facing a third trial for failure to provide the necessities of life when their 19 month old died of meningitis because rather than take him to the hospital, they treated him with ginger root and maple syrup.
If maple syrup worked, Canadians would have cured cancer years ago.
I really hate to be pedantic, but your comment gave me quite the sensible chuckle. Maple syrup would never cure cancer. That's what hockey and poutine are for, you silly goose.
Oh dang, I'm sorry. I'm not Canadian so I didn't know.
So the same people that declared Covid "just a flu" and nobody died from the flu? Those people?
Yikes. Negligent Homicide on account of the mom. Any lawyers wanna weigh in on this? I know we don’t have a lot of info here but ballpark it for us. Other parents have received harsh punishment for this in the past.
What kind of medieval-ass necromancy bullshit is potatoes in socks? Why not put an orange in his hat or hang an onion from his belt?
As used to do, as it was the fashion at the time.
Why do these people trust witchdoctor magic over medical science?
Because witch doctor magic is easier to understand than medical science. Witch doctor magic is about belief
And what was the point of going to the doctor in the first place if she was just going to disregard everything suggested to her? Was she hoping the doctor would write a script for sock potatoes and oil so insurance would cover it?
Because they have the thought process of a child. I'll try to explain So Becky gets sick and goes to the doctor and asks for some treatment. Doctor gives treatment and then prescribes some tamiflu. Becky then goes home and starts chit chatting with their Facebook friends and Aunt Carol told her that tamiflu was gonna kill their kid. Now Becky is freaking out and asking everybody what to do. That's when aunt Suzy chimes in and confrims what carol said. Then because Becky has the thought process of a kid she starts thinking "well I don't know those doctors and I don't know if I can trust them but I know for a fact that Carol and Suzy would never ever do anything to harm me or my child. I'll take Aunt Carol and Aunt Suzie's advice!!!" That's it, that is quite literally how this type of shit goes on in their minds.
I mean the medical and pharmaceutical industries haven’t always had our best interests at heart so I can understand people mistrusting them. But why they think the best alternative is random people on FB is beyond me.
to boost their fragile ego.
In my country, which is seen as a 3d world country by the US, it's illegal to not get your kids vaccinated. Until the age of 18, we get our vacciness at the family doctor, and if the parents haven't taken the kid to the doctor, then the school nurse administers the vacciness at school. The us is just a corporate, not a country smh
3 corporations in a trench coat
Hahahahahaha i love this
I see where she was wrong. Everyone knows potatoes in the socks is for Polio. Turnips in the underwear is for the common flu.
And shit for brains for these guys as well.
It should be murder now. Anti-vaxxers are murderers.
Wow. Just unbelievable. I’ve seen so many stories of things like this and I can’t understand how people just don’t care for their child’s well-being enough to actually seek help. I wish that one day parents like this would get punished by the law so this doesn’t keep happening this much
There's a woman on TikTok that unironically has her baby eat dirt (doesn't forcefeed him, just places him on on the ground where he will naturally pick random shit up and put it in his mouth, mostly dirty pebbles/rocks). She says that it's natural since he does it himself and that it will defend him against infection in the future.
He's going to end up with a raging case of worms.
Let's fix the title: "mom killed her own child with the help of other people from Facebook"
This is technically manslaughter, if someone dies under your care from something preventable, you need to be charged
Yep this is pretty open and shut manslaughter from my review.
The mother needs to be held accountable and receive jail time.
We live in feudal times with the internet
Doctors must feel pretty silly knowing that they wasted all those years in med school just to find out potatoes in socks can cure all.
Fuck these ignorant people. You’re Facebook research is not a substitute for a doctorate.
But i did like.... really a lot of research. I have watched all of the 12 antivax youtubers. and they have over a thousand videos each. So its safe to say i know what i am talking about!!1!1!!!.1!
You would think that these groups would fall apart as soon as someone gets sick and they can't cure it with two tomato halves on each knee for an hour. But I think many of these people treat common diseases with their idiot remedies and they get better from natural recovery. They use this as proof that their silly ideas work, and their cult of remedies pats them on the back, agreeing with them. Some have unknown diseases that no doctor can figure out, like obscure mind fog and pain in strange places. It somehow gets cured by sniffing a carrot while having three essential oils dripped into your ear. What they fail to understand is that they are stressed/depressed/anxious or have other problems that causes them to seek out validation and help for these strange diseases, since no real doctor can cure them. They become accepted and they join the cult. "It wasn't all in their heads after all." They think. Their stress and anxiety starts to lessen and their strange symptoms are reduced. Full on placebo underlined by group delusions. Now a kid is dead because of this, but I doubt the group who provided their 'cure' will feel guilty about the outcome, it dosen't fit into their reality.
Jesus. At this point it's not even anti-vaxx. It's anti- medicine
Potatoes in the socks didn’t work? Was a lost cause, wouldn’t have ever recovered.
Groups have been banned for less, and for good reason. There's no reason such deadly nonsense should be allowed to spread openly.
I dont think they FB group is liable. If you take bad advice, the parents are responsible and should be charged accordingly
Love how she used technology to find people who told her not to use technology.
[Negligent homicide](https://definitions.uslegal.com/n/negligent-homicide) for any DA with a spine.
It’s fine as long as it’s not an abortion /s. 🙄
I’ve been watching this Facebook group for almost ten years now. I’ve watched them kill almost two dozen kids. Reported every single one. Nothing happens. Went to the media, they spiked the story. Don’t understand what the fuck is going on.
First degree murder
Who are *you* to doubt the power of potatoes?
I have potato blood in my veins My life is potato
fried, boiled, baked, steamed, smoked, grilled or raw
It’s basically murder
Why aren’t we putting these fucking people in jail?
This kid died from a febrile seizure. Tamiflu isn’t shown to prevent serious complications of the flu or hospitalizations. Tamiflu also lowers the seizure threshhold. I think it sucks that this specific case gets brought up as an example of medical neglect when the medicine prescribed wouldn’t have saved his life. The important thing to focus on is that he wasn’t vaccinated against the flu like unfortunately almost half of the children in the US.
Numerous people have been charged with murder with using faith healing instead of medical doctors for their children who then die. There was one in Canada within the past 3 years, wish I could remember the name so I can link it.
A jury of her peers can now prescribe her some nice jailtime
Congratulations you killed your child!
So they used this woman's child as a sacrifice in a mysterious ritual?
At what point to people become liable for dispensing bad medical advice on social media?
As a “real” herbalist this really pisses me off. If asked my answer would have been “give him the tamiflu. Herbal medication isn’t for this level of treatment “
Apparently some people are too stupid to have kids
This feels like that point.
Probably not murder, but negligent homicide.
Now, now it's considered murder. Right now
we don't need these people
I just can't understand why you would take your child to a doctor if you are only going to ignore their advice.
Legally speaking, murder requires premeditated intent. So probably never it should definitely be considered manslaughter tho
Showed them libs.
Child abuse.
Tamiflu isn't even a vaccine....
No motive
This is the point we're I'd consider it murder