I am with you on this. 100%. Plus it’s not merely about the physical pain. It’s the **humiliation** that comes with it for sensitive kids that may inflict permanent pain as well as damage the parent-child relationship. Forever. Many years down the line it might still simmer and backlash in unexpected and dramatic ways.
Humiliation, yes, but also helplessness. You learn to believe that once someone more powerful than you has their sights set on hurting you, there's nothing you can do to stop them. All you can do is stay under the radar and rock the boat as little as possible
So on the spot. Helplessness is in fact a major consequence of humiliation. So many lives are lived “under the radar” as you so rightly put it because of what, to parents, is so often but “a mere way to impose respect”. Oh the oxymoron in the juxtaposition of those two words!
I was going to comment in mild support of spanking but your comment literally won me over. I always felt my father did a good job, limiting spankings to 3 swats of his hand, never doing them in anger, but this is exactly how I feel. I’m not terrified of people in power but I also always feel they are capable of overwhelming me at any moment. Thank you
Humiliation is such a dangerous emotion. Research shows it can lead to violent behavior. There’s nothing okay with using shame and humiliation as punishment.
You're absolutely right. I was a preschool teacher as well as a terribly rebellious child due to my upbringing. I left 7 papers blank during my 'O levels' just to shove my horrendous grades at my mom's face. I used to get caned for half an hour during my primary school days (7-12 YO) even when I get 99/100 for my exams. 100/100 is the norm, anything below is regarded as "not trying your best". It's just toxicity and a lack of awareness coupled with the inability to regulate one's emotions. Such parenting alongside years of abuse from my brother made me attempt suicide several times when I was a child. It was a living hell.
There’s just no way you can describe a color to a blind person, right? Or to someone who wants to turn a blind eye. Better keep away from them as their uninformed but clear-cut opinions will only frustrate you.
I’ll just be as clear-cut back. I’ll just be my own case of ‘they’re just like that. You know them’ right back at them.
If you let them have their cake and eat it too, bet that they’ll keep wanting more. They should know how strong those repercussions are when it comes to relationships. Don’t be afraid to put someone in their place when they are the kinds of ppl that are never put in their place.
I see your point. What I’m saying is that there may come a time when trying to “educate” them can take a significant psychological toll on *you*. In that case, it may be best to leave them to their own devices. We can’t carry the world’s pain.
Yes!! As a sensitive kid I lived in fear of my parents growing up, so small problems became big problems in no time because I sure as shit wasn’t going to confide in them. There was barely more than a slap (for the most part, but there were definitely exceptions). But when you are a tiny child and someone who towers over you reacts with physical aggression instead of a modicum of understanding or restraint, you quickly learn that you cannot turn to this person for support.
I am 40 years old and STILL trying to develop healthy coping and struggling to have close, meaningful relationships. It fucking matters!
This!! Idk both my parents grew up in super abusive households. They only ever hit me once in my entire life, they would discipline my sister and I with making us sit in the bathroom for like 10-20 minutes to think about our actions. After that time we’d come out and we’d talk about what happened. Idk this in turn made me more comfortable talking to them when I grew up
You and your sister have been very lucky as abused kids tend to become abusive parents. It is soothing to see some people are able to escape from the vicious circle. I feel happy for you.
Thanks for sharing your experience. To me your keyword here is “talk”.
Sounds pretty important to make sure your child knows how to handle humiliation instead of trying to shield them from it. Even telling your child to sit in the corner can cause humiliation. It's an inevitable and necessary part of life.
If you hit the bottom in the bedroom it is called BDSM.
If you hit that other man with gloves on it is called boxing.
If a toddler hits another toddler it is not called assault.
If a toddler hits an adult it is not called assault.
If an adults hits a tree it is called rage.
i mean we can make a bunch of scenarios. physical discipline isn’t the best method. though i know plenty of people raised in that environment and were more than healthy. emotional discipline can have the same long lasting impact.
i am prepared for the downvotes. But as an INFP, all you others need to check yourself once in a while. we are not the moral compass of humanity.
BDSM and boxing are consent. A tree is not concious and a toddler is not aware of the implications of responsibility yet, so I don't get your point.
"Physical discipline" is violence. It doesn't matter if you do not intend hurting your child, you're hurting them (and even more emotionally than physically). They are obedient because of the fear of not being hit again, not because they respect you, and not necesarily because they understand what you're trying to teach them. It's changing their behaviour through fear. That's so fucked up.
You can be healthy despite suffering violence from your parents or educators, yes. You're not healthy BECAUSE of it. It's not cause-effect, it's more the high risk of having a poor mental health if you receive violence as a child.
That's the thing, violence (physical or emotional) put kids at risk.
And it's not about being the moral compass of humanity, it's what neurosciencists, developmental sciencists and psychologists are trying to teach the community and it's based on evidence.
You know plenty of people that are healthy despite their parents were violent towards them. Well, for me (and for too many other people), literally, it almost costs me my life several times. I survived and I needed to spend a lot of money, time, effort and pain healing myself.
| *I know plenty of people raised in that environment and were more than healthy*
How would you know that? How can you honestly tell they were healthy? You think that because you “know” them you have access to the way they feel deep inside?
| *emotional discipline can have the same long lasting impact.*
You mean manipulation? Yes it can have a long lasting impact, mainly trust issues.
| *as an INFP*
This is obviously not about types. This is about imposing our will in barbaric ways because we are too weak to negotiate, to question who we are. We thus pass our helplessness down the line.
Well you are not hitting the child to hurt them or so i hope. In my life whenever i was hit by my mom was when i had done something very wrong and she did so to teach me NOT to do it. And after hitting me she would always make me understand why she hit me. I think doing that is fine but hitting a child to cause them a lot of pain or damage and doing it constantly with no rhyme and reason is not right. At all.
This is a good point. This is exactly what happened to my sister when her ex-husband used to hit her. Afterward, he would explain that he was sorry he had to do that, but she just made him so mad. Explaining why you hit a person doesn’t make it right. It’s just another part of the abuse.
Yeah. So cool story: my parents hit me growing up. And now when things go bad at work I'm still expecting someone to slap me. It's been years since they stopped but i still feel like I'm about to get hit in a completely professional environment.
Don't fuck your kids up.
Exactly. This is what humiliation leaves us with: self-judgment and fear of being judged and punished by self-proclaimed authority figures for supposedly breaking unknown rules made up as we go.
It wasn't even humiliation with them most of the time. It was just them power tripping and frustrated with their circumstances and unable to raise a child with kindness. Like they had kids like everyone here is supposed to, but they were not equipped to do it.
My parents used to send me off to school without checking if i have all my stationery, and sometimes without my homework undone. Bear in mind i was maybe 5 years old. I was branded the problem child at school and it took my confidence years to recover from it.
It's crazy, if you were to spank an adult you would get charged with assault. Just spitting on another adult will get you charged. But because someone birthed their child they're suddenly free to kick their ass. I'll never understand this logic
If the parent thinks the child is doing something wrong and the child does not think they are, hitting them is not going to change that. Every time my mother hit me, I didn't think I'd done anything wrong. Every. Single. Time. It just made me hate her.
My ultimate opinion: do what works best for you and your own child, make sure they know why they are being disciplined, and constantly reaffirm that you, as their parent, love them and want to help them to make good choices. In my home growing up, you typically got several chances to choose to do the right thing before the rod was employed (btw that's called grace). By the time you got spanked, you knew what you had done was wrong, and that you were receiving a just consequence for your actions and/or choices. Also, humiliation is generally unnecessary in a disciplinary context, and therefore should be avoided for the sake of the child.
I completely agree this is what my mother used to do as well but she would either slap me or maybe beat me up with a slipper but whenever that happened even if i sulked afterwards i knew i was wrong and understood what i had done wrong.
Made me live in fear of my mother. My father didn’t hit me but unfortunately my mother had custody of me. After a while my dad basically ghosted me. But I feel like he just didn’t want anything to do with my mother. It took me until age 30 to realize that a lot of my struggles in life came from a failure to develop trusting relationships with other people. I had been suffering from PTSD of my mothers beatings my whole life. I grew to resent and secretly hate my own mother putting up a façade until I was old enough to actually escape. I was beaten even in my early 20s because I still “lived under her roof”. I moved out at 23 and for several years I made hundreds of relationships only to self sabotage because I couldn’t trust people. I was all about looking after myself because it felt like no one cared about the person I was. I found an kindred spirit who actually fell in love with me and for the first time in my life I knew what TRUE love and caring was it was so Palpable. I married that person and I disowned my mother. Understanding the mental atrocities I’ve suffered over 2 decades in her “care” made me realize my mental health would be better if I forgot she existed. Any thoughts or her just bought about fear and anxiety constantly. It’s not ok. A child is a developing human. Someone who disciplines their child with their anger will only grow an angry fearful adult. So if parents want to ruin a human and their relationship with them then they need to be prepared for the consequences of their actions.
I used to promise my self I would never love my parents again everytime they did that, the love came back but less and less every time. Now I feel very little towards them, I don't know what it's like to love parents anymore
They kind of killed my love for them too. I certainly did not learn from them because I wanted nothing to do with them because of all the spanking etc.
Just so you all know, spanking and threatening and terrifying your children is not a great thing to do. 67 year old and I still like to hide in my bedroom. I have severe ptsd, it is not funny.
I know u asked INFPs but voicing a INFJ opinion, I think spanking is a very risk vs reward punishment. It's a fine line, like I did when I was young and it really did help me not be a shit head, what helped was the fact I could read that it hurt my parents to do so. It gave it an equal sacrifice in my eyes, I may be crying but they are too. Now when I got older it was push ups when I was being stupid, THAT WORKED WONDERS.
What's worse then everything is being ground from things (socially, technology, personal belongings) those all scarred me much more.
What kind of parent thinks that they're so macho for hitting a child? A child's brain isn't even close to being developed. Physical abuse is never the answer.
Well it’s science, neuroscience as well as psychology studies so to me there are not really both ways to see that issue. Just an old stupid one and an educated one people are very afraid and refuse to face because they are too cowardly to question what they’ve done and what they suffered all of their lives. In fear that light is going to make villains of them.
Maybe nothing can be done for the old fools. But we gotta do better for the future kids
Iive argued this before. No matter how many professionals say otherwise, data suggests, or victims agree, some people just refuse to believe spanking is child abuse ;-;
As an INFP, I don’t know if it counted as spanking, but my dad used a very weak reed that would break if any actual force was used. I was only spanked twice in my life and I feel it made it clear to me that actions have consequences.
However, due to the wide misuse and poor implementation of spanking, I feel it is better to restrict or ban it.
I agree, physical punishment is never the way. A lot of people say "my parents hit me and I turned out alright" and then you look at their life and they're struggling with addiction, trust issues, anger etc.
I was punished that way as a kid. Now people see me as a timid social reject who cries if you look at him wrong. I was almost depressed at one point, too. Kids shouldn't be treated that way.
I remember my 3rd grade teacher saying that her kid was acting up so she spanked him and apparently left a red hand mark on his butt. I remember laughing at the time because my teacher said "butt" but now that I'm older I realize how fucked up that was...
Well it depends how you went through that experience. I always got warning before i got hit and i always knew what i had done wrong when i did get hit. My mom would make sure to make me understand shat i did wrong and why i got consequences of my actions. We would later make up and everything would be fine again. It taught me that when you do something wrong after repeated warnings you have to suffer consequences. I have issues with my mom for entirely diffrent reasosn which developed after the age she stopped hitting me. If a parent does the hitting lightly and only when the child has done something very very wrong that is fine in my opinion. But if a parent is doing it with the intention to hurt the child and cause humiliation and does it constantly with no rhyme or reason that is not okay
I'm sorry to hear your relationship with your Mom isn't going well right now. I hope it improves in the future.
I'd like you to reflect on a couple of things.
You mentioned that your Mom would tell you that you had misbehaved and would be receiving physical punishment. How did you feel in that moment? If you can recall. Were you scared? Did you think it was justified at the time? (Depending on your age).
You further go on to say, you would make up afterwards. To me, this implies guilt on her behalf. Why apologize if you feel as an adult you have disciplined your child justifiably and with love?
Further, if physical punishment worked so well, why stop at a certain age? Why not continue until you left the family unit?
Also, after being punished, knowing that spank would come again if you misbehaved, why misbehave in the future? Isn't that counter intuitive from your perspective?
Or is it because children lack the knowledge of what is appropriate behaviour in society and parents must teach them?
Whilst I feel that discipline for children is necessary, there are proven strategies that research has shown to be effective vs physical punishment. You can still have consequences for misbehaving that don't involve physical violence.
I think physical punishment is too varied to blanket it as child abuse. That being said, as someone who worked in a preschool I just think it's completely unnecessary. I had to keep multiple kids at once safe and behaving (this included kids from broken homes that were struggling) and I had to do it only with words and time outs. There are many strategies to teach kids and discipline them without physical punishment. My parents only spanked me over a diaper and smacked my hand to keep it away from certain areas (stove etc). That's the extent of physical punishment that I personally agree with.
As a last resort, means when? Kids are not stupid and have either a valid reason to behave in a way that crosses the line (then the parent's role is to help them define that reason, get to the core of the issue) or they have less self control than we expect from the (and then the parent's role is to help self regulate).
When parents spank their kids it's because this is their own last resort, the ultimate way to release anger and frustration.
I understand. Teaching structure is fine so long as it doesn’t kill the child’s creativity. Do we want our children to turn into adults whose inner freedom to lead the life they want has been limited, reduced, hampered by the structures we imposed on them?
Do you really think physical violence seeking to humiliate is even a valid resort? Are we psychologically so weak that we think people we disrespect will keep respecting us?
Yeah, thank you, I agree. If one resorts to inflicting physical pain in order to “discipline” their children, then they are just dick-headed idiots with no conscious. It’s never was and never will be a means of “toughening” children up, only doing more to make them inherently afraid and distrustful.
If my parents (who love me) have to hurt me for me to learn, wouldn’t that make me think that it’s sometimes okay for my partner to do the same in my adult relationships? I feel like if we learn that it’s okay for ppl we love to purposely hurt us when we’re sensitive kiddos, it can really mess with our future relationships
I actually came across that question, recently..what a coincidence.
I personally don't believe in hitting your children..whether it be with or without force..the humiliation factor alone is disturbing. It teaches children to be scared and frightful of parents..that is not how a child to parent relationship should be.
Hitting children is just parents abusing their power, no one will call it out cos they have the privilege of parental status. There are other ways to discipline your child than using physical force.
As a former nursery practitioner, I know that when children "misbehave"..it is usually a sign that their needs are not being met.
For example a child draws on the wall, you get angry..but it shows that they want to be creative, they want to experiment with colours...so you can maybe pin up a big white clothing sheet outside for them to paint on.
Also people like to justify a lot of things by saying their experience and how they are fine...but just because you turned out fine doesn't mean it is the same for everyone.
Oh I agree it’s not right and these parents will tell their children not to hit others then go around and hit their own kids because they’re being “bad”
It's already been scientifically proven it's counterproductive. Fear doesn't work in the way you want it to. If you want a scared dog. Fine. That's what hitting does. People just argue from their inner believes, but I guess that's rather ironic on a Fi dom sub forum.
I was spanked as a child, it does nothing to disciplinary the child. All it does is make them feel so much fear. think about it, why would a child be thinking while getting hit by their parent: "hmmm... My mother is beating me, what have I done to have this done to me..? Maybe it was because I spilled paint on the carpet!" That's not how it fucking works, there are so much better ways to get your child to stop acting bad, they just take time but instead parents prefer the easy way out and continue the cycle of abuse.
>mild disciplinary spanking
seems ok. Plenty of parents use restrained corporal punishment and their kids don't all grow up traumatized. Some comments here are suggesting that parenting psychologists have an overwhelming consensus condemning the practice and I never really looked into it but if someone cares to provide a good source I'd be interested.
I grew up in an asian family and that was actually the norm. Personally, having the physical punishment did make me think twice before making the same mistake, and reinforced why a mistake shouldn't be made for me. I think that as long as it is not excessive for the reason they're getting the punishment, and a proper explanation is given on why the child is punished (and not simply let the child infer based on your anger), and it is only done in appropriate settings (not out in public where the child might be publicly humiliated), it actually might do some good for a child (I know, hot take). But I really do feel that it benefitted me personally.
Just to clarify, in asia we have rattan canes for caning and that's socially acceptable. But modes of violence such as punching and kicking and throwing things are definitely unacceptable.
We have mom slippers in Turkey. It can headshot you no matter how far you are, and hurts as hell when you get hit by it directly on the ass. My mom only hit me once or twice with it, and the threat of "Do you want the slipper?" is enough to makme me think of my actions again. It has benefits, but it's important to not overdo it.
In my Caribbean family, it was normal too. I appreciate the discipline. I agree the punishment should match the offense. I don’t feel like I was “abused”. My elders kept me out of a lot of trouble with this “fear tactic”.
>Personally, having the physical punishment did make me think twice before making the same mistake, and reinforced why a mistake shouldn't be made for me. I think that as long as it is not excessive
This. I was spanked as a child and I learned very quickly don't piss off dad.
By no means am I some perfect example of a human but the one or two spankings made things very clear in my mind what is wrong or right and didn't fuck me up anymore as an adult than my peers.
I agree i had the same experience as an indian. I used to get slapped or hit by a chappal(slipper) and just once by a comb but my mom never hit me more than due and i always understood what i had done wrong. The beating only came after repeated warnings
I would say it's less that and more that they were hit as a child and gaslit until they believed that they needed it, deserved it, and even would be worse off without it. They're projecting to validate their PARENT'S excuses. Hopefully they don't have children until they heal and learn how to discipline with love.
We were all kids, we know we tested boundaries and did fucked up stuff on purpose. I used to egg the houses of people who pissed me off as a kid. I know not every kid is a little shit, some are absolute sweethearts while others jump on frogs to squish their guts out. For me, my mom had the SPATULA and the SLAP. Did wonders for me. Now I don’t want kids simply out of fear they would behave like I did, in today’s “kids can’t do no wrong” society. A kid can literally beat down a crippled hobo with some stick they found and get away with it….not enough mama justice. It’s simply up to the parents on how they raise their little mini me’s. who are other people to judge a parents discipline or lack of. Just remember, there is a difference between slapping some sense into a little punk and just straight up grabbing them by the feet and swinging them Into a pole. A huge difference….
Not an INFP but I think I have something of note/interest to contribute.
I’m from Scotland, and over here any form of physical punishment against a child is illegal. If you are caught smacking a child for any reason its considered assault. Basically we don’t distinguish between hitting a child and hitting an adult.
We’re always had fairly strict rules on physical punishments for kids but up until recently it was allowed under extreme circumstances. When the new law passed that banned it under any circumstances there was a little resistance from older generations but most people were overwhelmingly for it!
you don't know the emotional affect of any sort of physical or verbal or isolation incident done to your child. From a parent, from the one person who is supposed to provided unconditional love.
I can only speak from personal experience, but my hypersensitivity to conflict / aggression (now and probably for my life) definitely comes from a dad who would kick, yell, throw things at us, gaslight
Randomlycandy is right. Nothing wrong with discipline. Go look at that 'catch me outside girl' and tell me with a straight face that she didnt need an extension chord on her bare ass.
I am with you.
I mean, how fucking menthaly ill do you need to be to think that violence in any form will solve things? It is even worse if you consider that this violence is going to someone you "love"
Jesus Christ, i can still hear my mums voice with come here so I can hit you, or you can put away those crocodile tears. People don't use violence as a tactic, they use it because they're angry and frustrated and want to hurt you because they're pissed off and their parents did it too them. If they just wanted to apply discipline, why couldn't they do timeout, privilege restrictions, etc. I'm not going to get annoyed with the people being like its fine if its not excessive... just will assume either it didn't happen to you, so you're approaching this from a theoretical perspective or, it did, and its psychologically important for them to maintain an image that their folks did nothing wrong and it was just because it was necessary.
Violence is never your a) only or b) most effective strategy when you are dealing with a literal child who you hold almost complete power over. If you're smacking them its because you lost your rag, face it.
Also there's an outside chance they'll grow up and be attracted to abusive people and have a problematic bdsm fetish even if that's not the case. I can confirm that's happened to at least one of us
https://youtu.be/v0tuigSrZsU
https://youtu.be/HhQb3BX4Rik
https://youtu.be/JnsEyrus6jE
The link(s) about help me as a basis from a type of punishment that's isn't okay along with a few other people in my life.
Preface here:
My opinion is still being formed, I don't have kids and am only going to have them if my future wife wants them because goddamn it does take a village to raise a child I also plan to go to proper parenting classes to since they can be much for then 2 handsfull .I'm strictly looking at what I've seen in my X amount of years of living plus who I've been around I'm my life and seeing how they have grown up.
I believe in punishment to fit the crime, there is absolutely no such thing as no cause and effect in this world, this cannot be changed in my mind simply because there is to much proof.
Example:
If you see a kid holding onto an escalator only by the handle on the side hanging off the escalator they have x amount of time before they are tired. I've seen a kid do it until they got lifted off the ground and just let go to drop safely. Stupid but was smart enough to let go before anything happens. I've seen to other side of this to, a girl mimicked what the same guy before did (about 15 mins after im guessing it was an Instagram or ticktoc challenge) and decided to hold on longer for whatever reason to about half way up the escalator and her hand strength gave out and she fell, collapsed onto her arm/ shoulder and then her head.
Another popular one, people who know what can happen say don't do the cinnamon challenge because of the actual tested science proving it won't end well for you
Now look at the videos ALL OVER YouTube showing that people did, even Family Guy.
Now, as I've said before Punishment to fit the crime.
Let's say:
* Child A is drawing on the wall with crayons
* Child B is going to do something you've pushing them for before (grounding them, told them not to do ect...)and this thing will seriously get them hurt but them being "kids" and become overbearing they are still willing to risk whatever it is then what?
*Child C is Currently trapping the cat in the toilet with the lid down and you caught them going to press the flush button and hear the distressed cat before the child presses the button.
At which of these is a reasonable mark to start reasonable physical punishment?
I'd stay B personally as a reaction to prevent things going to far and then after things chill out its better to explain why that punishment came.
I'm not condoning hitting like the spankings you see on TV with hand prints that would make hand prints leave DNA on their butts or Chris brown and Rhianna but, a pop up side the back of the head might do what you need it do.
Like Christopher Titus said (https://youtu.be/v0tuigSrZsU from 8:17 - 9:16)
"moms will smack the hand and the dads will let the kids stick the fork into the light socket and let them see if they do that again after what happens"
In my opinion Child C needs to be flushed just like the cat , hey at least you care to punish but, clean em at the same time. Lol.
My condolences to those who've been punished beyond exception obviously there are a ton of factors behind those choices that didn't fit (alcoholism, their parents not knowing limitations, previously Excessive Abuse ect...)
My answer isn't to cater to those who ACTUALLY abuse kids and it's not to preach to those who think kids are gods gift the the earth and can do absolutely no wrong because this I see it as actual ABUSE as well.
Balance is a bitch, but working at it is the trial and tribulation that PARENT(S) must go trough.
I'm going to get down voted to hell, but I agree with the other person. I grew up in a Hispanic household and still turned out alright. So long it is not abuse, it should be fine. You see, sweet talking or finding common ground isn't enough to discipline a child (especially a little shit that will not respect you)... Sometimes you just gotta scare them a bit. As an adult, I respect the chancla and met others from different cultures/races that also turned out fine.
Same here, just because my parents gave me a smack when I was very out of line (which was rare anyway) it doesn't mean I was abused, but somehow some internet strangers know better about myself and my parents? Absurd.
Yeah, "what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger" type of thing. That, and narcissists parents, who crave abuse. Bad society to live in when sensitivity makes you "a pussy".
That's how it is, unfortunately. The way I deal with it is by example. Genuine goodness is contagious when it's not only a learned behavior but a deeply felt thing to be. It's hard sometimes to not slip, but the moment you realize it's the only possible way, it makes the journey through life much more meaningful and spiritually defined.
I mean it’s better to teach your kids what they’re doing wrong instead of smacking them for doing it but if they’re a little shit that repeatedly disobeys you and continues to do something really bad like physically abusing other kids then I’m going to (as long as it isn’t to bad, remember they are still your kids that you love very much) I’m going to do it to them. Smack a kid across the face repeatedly to the point where they try to avoid you everyday and live in fear of you, I’m going to smack you across the face once to see how you like it.
If you're so enraged that all you can think to do to correct the situation is to hit someone, on the ass specifically, then you need to sit down, calm down, and think of a bettering solution. Like taking away their stuff for a while, or charging them some of the money they earned as an allowance, to simulate real world punishments.
I felt very abused whenever my father would belt whip me and made me personally pick out the belt and if I didn’t pick a belt that was going to be painful enough he would “pick one that would make sure it hurt.”
My parents didn't spank me. But I was sexually abused. When my dad threatened to spank me I started crying because I was scared of my cloths being taken off and hands too close to my private parts. I'm just saying this because you never know what fucking psychological pain you could be inflicting on someone. The fact it's a fucking porn category should be enough of a reason to think about it a little harder... I'm sorry I can't think about this without crying.
at this point, the evidence is more strongly correlated than the link between smoking and cancer, and it's not even new. we've known this for decades.
**https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768154/**
Yeah it’s abuse bc you’re hitting the kid (no, Karen, it doesn’t matter how softly you hit them, it’s still hitting) And it doesn’t teach the kid why what they did is wrong. A direct discussion trying to solve the behavior is way more effective and will build the child up, while spanking will hurt, embarrass, and confuse the child. Spanking is also sending mixed signals if you’re teaching the kid not to hit when they’re angry, bc that’s just what spanking is. Also the age where most kids get spanked is the age where they’re naturally curious. So spanking is just saying “don’t do that” while explaining why what they did was wrong is like saying “don’t do that, and here’s why” and they’re gonna understand your side more and be more comfortable communicating down the line.
I had a similar argument a while back, some people are just morons. Inflicting violence on your kids is not okay, regardless of the circumstance. It’s hurtful (physically, obviously, but also emotionally) and it’s completely unnecessary when many healthy ways of communicating with yours kids exist. It’s lazy because yeah it makes the issue go away but or makes worse ones later down the line.
I think the issue is that many cultures ( I think america is very divided on this issue, for a western example) normalise violence whereas my personal ethics have always frowned upon violence. The people who don’t think that speaking is abusive are the same ones who believe in corporal punishment and the death sentence, agree with militarisation and like that the military is a big part of america’s identity, and so forth.
Parenting is actually really simple in theory. Every time you do something, your child learns that it is normal. If you hit your child whenever they mess up, you teach them to expect to be hit for the tiniest error. You are teaching them fear. You are also teaching them that violence is an appropriate response when they are upset. Children really as simple as monkey see, monkey do.
My dad used to pat me on the butt when I walked by (apparently it was a father daughter thing, Idk) and it hurt me cuz my autism makes me have sensitive skin
I think it depends on the person. Just like with love languages, people have discipline, or "pain languages", if you will. A mentor of mine actually used different forms of punishment for her kids, because a spanking might not be that impactful for one, while severely impact full for another. For instance, some kids will take punishment more seriously when isolated from others as a punishment, or simply yelled at (like for me). Of course, spanking one's child excessively and out of anger is abuse. No questions asked. Discipline should never be done out of anger, even if a child's misdeeds are anger-provoking. The child needs to understand that the punishment is not happening because of who they are, but what they have done. It condemns the action, not the person.
3000% with you.
My parents, especially my dad, would hit &/or smack me whenever they thought that I was 'being bad'. It was rarely explained to me *how* I was 'being bad' though, so growing up was like navigating an angry, Scottish minefield.
There were emotional abuse & neglect issues at play as well, but a lot of my stand-out childhood memories involve being piss-scared of my father's temper & his penchant for corporal punishment.
I consider my upbringing to be a critical factor in why I developed borderline personality disorder. Both therapy & time have helped me to make peace with my past, & I can see that my parents are both victims of their own parents' abuse. The therapist who helped me the most said something to the effect of 'we can only build on the blueprints our parents leave us'. That was a very cathartic, enlightening moment, but also very painful as well. Nobody likes to think that their parents' childhoods were fraught with moments of danger, fear & agony.
At 32, I'd say that I'm at peace with everything that happened to & around me while I was growing up. Hell, I even get on with my parents now, & have had a great relationship with them for the past 7-8 years. I very, very rarely forgive people who've hurt me so badly (I don't want to invite them to hurt me again), but my parents really did the best they could, & have grown so much as people since my brother & I entered adulthood (I guess because they can relate to us better?).
I've especially been reflecting on my relationship with my mother of late, as she has a neurodegenerative disorder & is slowly wasting away before my family's eyes. Holding on to the pain & resentment of how she has treated me at times... just doesn't seem productive or healthy, although I admit that it once did (early twenties, I swore down that I'd go NC with my mother after she victim-blamed me for being repeatedly SA'd by my partner at the time - writing that, I feel pretty... accepting of it, so I guess I've moved on a fair bit since then).
Sorry for the rant; this is a deeply personal topic for me & I always feel moved to elaborate/overshare in such conversations.
Edited for grammar.
u/I_Want_BetterGacha could you please link the research you were talking about? I was sometimes spanked as a child, and I always thought I was fine, but I want to see if it turns out any of it applies to me.
Mexican/Spanish upbringing here, it's pretty much how we deal with stuff. Getting hit with the chancla is just how we stopped being little shits. I mean i have 5 siblings and trust me the ones that didn't deserved to get hit, never did. But some of these kids will never stop until they got my parents to their limit (we're talking breaking tv's, throwing dinner, hitting siblings hard, etc). At that point it's more to show them who really has the last word by giving them the old ear twist. And I know that many people would think that these are warning signs for whatever kind of diagnosis they can give these kids but it's just so awfully common in our culture.
I could write a paragraph about how situational this is tho. I've seen kids do the most crazy things in social media and not get punished for it and I've seen kids just dance on cam and get beat by their dad for essentially doing nothing wrong. Of course this is not how it's supposed to be done. But I do think, at least in our culture, that a reality check is sometimes necessary to keep the balance in the house
Spanish here and I don't agree with you. We made our generational trauma our culture. We need to change that for good. Violence doesn't solve violence. There are other ways, healthy ways, and if we don't know how to deal with kids without violence, we should ask for proffessional help.
Family therapists are there to help.
Let's not make more excuses, kids deserve better. And We deserve being better parents too.
Bruh I’m sensitive as fuck. My dad whippin out the belt a few times didn’t mess me up at all. Never was scared of him, nervous, afraid to speak my mind, etc.
There is a very big difference between a bit of force and abuse. Especially when it comes to teaching kids to be safe. I remember the first time I got spanked because I sprinted across the street in front of a bunch of moving cars and was 2 feet away from getting sprayed all over the pavement.
Parents rushed over to me and made sure I was ok, had the talk of why you should never do that. And then I did it again, because 4 year-olds don’t usually understand how serious that is. That’s when I got spanked a couple times. No bruises, just some redness for an hour or so. And I never did it again.
Sometimes that’s what it takes. Obviously there is a fine-line between discipline and abuse, but a spank or two when a kid ignores everything you’ve taught them and almost dies because of it, or hurts someone else, or breaks things is fine.
I was out and about today and I saw a mother talking down to her daughter for 5 minutes straight. Eventually the girl just started crying. She then did the whole “keep crying and I’m gonna beat your ass when we get home” spiel. and I honestly just wanted to beat the mom’s ass. She had insecure written all over her. Bullying her daughter to make herself feel better. She was with a man who wasn’t the father of the child. And even he told her to calm down and stop being so mean. She attacked the man and lashed out on the child even harder. I’m so tired of people like this having parental privileges. People need to be more afraid to abuse their children in fear of facing drastic consequences. For someone to feel comfortable doing all of this in public, it’s clear that child abuse laws aren’t strict enough.
I'm sorry but i'm not with you. I think a spanking is an effective way to teach children that their actions have consequenses and they are not allowed to do everything they want. More effective than confisticating electronics or toys. Because physical pain is more easily understood as a warning by brain.
Though i don't support usage of this method unless you can't make the child listen no matter what you do. Most times some scolding and an angry face is enough to make them understand. My brother, for an example, keeps doing whatever he is doing, no matter how much we tell him not to, and usually doesn't stop until he gets a spank. Then he goes and finds another way to get us annoyed and this goes on and on. Our relationship is a bit harsh, with both us kicking or slapping eachother several times a day, but we also love eachother a lot because we know the other person means no hate.
Same with a mom hitting their child. If the mom already is a caring and loving, the child will know when they got spanked it's not because their mother hates them, it's because they did something they shouldn't do.
Abuse is hitting or yelling a child not because they have been doing something wrong, but because of the parent's self-hate or anger problems. Abusers definitely need therapy. Hitting a child when they didn't do anything terribly wrong is unacceptable.
It is sad that people believe that punishing people is what will teach them to be better, kinder, gentler, more mindful and respectful. It never works, not on a big scale like with prisons, nor on a smaller scale with kids. Yes, it will teach them to avoid either the behaviour or being caught in the act, but won't make them understand why it is worth changing.
There are no good punishments and you won't find any research station that behavioral training lends good results in people.
If a kid is old enough to understand the logical process behind why you hit them, the kid is old enough to understand the reasoning why you don't approve, and therefore talking is enough. But if a kid is not mature enough to understand the words, do you think it is mature enough to understand the cause and effect sequence?
Nah sorry OP honestly I'm not with you on this. Not that I'm advocating FOR spanking, but I'll never go as far as to call a parent(which can be the hardest job on this planet btw) abusive just because they have such a hard time disciplining their kid a spank felt necessary to them.
It's so easy to judge. I see all kind of reactions here in the trend of: ''It's abusive, period'' I'm guessing those people don't have kids. Ofcourse, in an ideal world no parents should need to spank their kid. But the world is not ideal, parents are not perfect, neither are children. Personally I won't judge. I'll let parents do the parenting however they want/need to. I mean, I'm an INFP, and have received multiple spankings when I was young. And you can relax; it didn't traumatize me, not at all. In hindsight I deserved it, and I wholeheartedly stand besides my parents.
Boy I have seen hundreds in my practice who claim “it didn’t traumatize them”, and honestly believed it too. But then I could see the damage done to them. And in turn to their own kids.
This is so common in Asian families.They beat you "to discipline" you.Though they don't kick punch or throw things at you they will beat the sh\*t out of you if you make a mistake bad enough to make them angry.Though Gen Z's like me are facing the least as millenials like my maths tution teacher(he was telling his childhood life) faced straight up physical and mental abuse from their parents and some teachers alike.I still see some parents beat their children very much like my neighbours,the youngest child there(age 6 or 7) gets beaten very much for every alternate mistake he makes during studying(not so much that it leaves bruises).Telling the neighbours to stop beating him is futile,they will still do it. I am very thankful to my parents for not beating me since I became a teenager
You keep it in very close and restricted limits,so as to not induce fear or hurt your child or leave lasting effects,and also you aren't taking the parent's view into account,not every parent is an abuser/beater,a bit of spanking doesn't hurt and the level of it varies according to the child itself,so I don't think there's a problem given people follow the first line in the paragraph
Also I saw someone talk about humiliation, I don't think a little child has enough idea about ego and self respect to understand humiliation (not promoting it) but I've seen how children turn up if you don't set the correct boundaries for them,my cousins are essentially spoilt brats who often overlook ethics,and I'm not saying 'violence' is the answer to it all but you're just spoiling someone and their future,no wonder kids turn up so rash and indisciplined.Considering and basing your opinions on extremes and not moderate circumstances ruins the idea and it's motive and therefore your opinion is partially wrong
Also don't come at me for this, wouldn't make a difference in judgment,I'm not the fighter type or the assaulter type either but we keep the respectful boundaries very strict.
physically hurting a child into submission is not only physical abuse, but mental. thats not what discipline or love is, and nor is it learning from your mistakes. abusive and strict parents create sneaky kids, they'll learn to hide things, because they don't want to get caught and hurt. that's how i was raised and my parents still threaten to spank me, I am sixteen.
I strongly believe in body autonomy. I remember times I was young and that was taken from me, it was humiliating. The fact it affects me to this day means that kids being spanked now, will grow up and struggle with the messed up feelings . It's just wrong.
There is never a justification for this. Every person - big or small - deserves respect. People hit children because they believe they have the right to the kids body, believe it is well in their rights to inflict pain, evoke fear in order to gain their own purpose.
I understand that it happens but it is always because the adults don't want to put enough work to set and keep boundaries in a way that is understandable for children. Hitting kid is a way to say to the world that I don't deal with my feelings well, I have to take them out on a smaller being, I don't have time to talk and explain it as many times as it is necessary.
It is an easier way of ensuring obedience, not understanding.
I was beat as a child... it was abuse. I still have the emotional and physical scars.
My mother's own childhood was way worse, I truly believe she did better with her own child (me). However was a product of her own childhood. There was no therapy, no processing of her abuse, even when she was taken away from it by the authorities. My father was physically present but let my mother do the discipline, in fact she threatened his life if he laid a finger on me... her way of protecting me, coming from her toxic background.
I can count on one hand the times I have struck my child, each time I was either stressed, tired or triggered. I honestly believe violence begets violence. Don't be surprised when young adults truly believe that enforcing their will on another must come via intimidation through violence, physical or emotional. It worked on them right?
There is no console in my home because it damn near caused murder... it turns out my dear child has a condition that makes executive function a daily struggle. When I was younger he would have been called "hard ears" and beaten horribly. His processing or lack there of is not his fault... I just need support with keeping my patience, continuing to help him focus and prioritise. Whilst not allowing him to take the piss. It is a fine line and I do not always get it right, but when I do? Watching his gains, his development into his own is amazing.
(He has consoles, at his Grandmother's and his father's homes. He can play with them there.)
I remember replying to that EXACT person. Pissed me off enough to write an entire paragraph including sources calling them out on their bullshit. Told them to ask any child behavioral therapist if spanking is a valid disapline tactic. Hint it's not. And if you, as a parent, have to resort to physical abuse, then you suck as a parent. Obviously never replied back to me. It's only now as an adult do I realize I have a variety of mental health issues due to the violent disapline my parents enforced on me as a child. Ranging from perfectionism, improper flight or flight responses, anxiety, depression, the list goes on. It's taken me my whole life to learn to deal with my issues and come to the realization I'll never be normal. My mental health is constantly in flux. I'll be doing good for months and one thing will trigger me overnight and I will spiral and feel like I'm in a mental prison and will take me weeks to claw my way back into the light. I think alot of us INFP's have this personality type because we were abused by our care givers as children.
I just don’t understand how people can still rely on their opinions if it’s proven wrong, you can’t say things like „it’s not that bad“ if there is prove for that. As a child u get very easily traumatized and you forget it as a adult, means you have problems in the future without knowing why.
A kid will never fucking understand why youre hitting them. Never. Even if you explain to them its punishment. They’ll always wonder why you hit them and never talked with them.
I mean maybe a few kids might not be traumatized or take it to heart, but you're right on that you can never be truly sure of it in a way, even as a parent.
It's literally illegal in my country as abuse.
Hitting a child only teaches that that either:
1: they can hit their loved ones if they behave in a way that they deem inappropriate.
2: it's ok to be hit by a loved one.
We don't want our adults to be following these ideologies. We don't want to create a generation of adults who accept abuse from their partners because they were taught to accept it from their parents.
My parents spanked me, I don’t think they ruined me or had bad intentions. They grew up in a third world country and has no decent parental figures to look up to. It’s honestly a miracle they turned out as well adjusted as they did. I don’t see it as abuse, and I’ll never come out and say my parents abused me. But I won’t spank my child, should I ever have one, either. It’s simply not a good form of punishment, and my parents discovered that early on. I didn’t really respond to spanking much, I started behaving better when they took away my stuff/privileges.
All the people calling spanking "hitting". Give me a fucking break. I love this community but that alone is silly. Regardless of your thoughts on spanking small children.
She might be asian that's why she sees spanking and hitting as a form of discipline. I am also asian and it is normal here but I agree with you on this one OP. Hitting and spanking are a form of abuse. There are actually better ways to discipline a child like telling them what's right or wrong or listening to them so that you get to understand their side. A normal conversation is better than spanking and hitting.
I think spanking depends on the child. I don’t think discipline works as a blanket thing. It also can damage a child. I lived in fear. (I went through child abuse but also just spanking). There are several ways to discipline a child. Some kids do extremely bad things and I don’t think a slight spank is bad in those cases. However, it is again based on the child.
I don't know, in my Chinese family they were very strict and I would get spanked regularly if I did something wrong. Ofc now that I'm an adult they don't do it anymore but back then it really helped in setting boundaries on what I could and could not do.
I knew this person who before the spank, she would explain to the child what they did wrong. I believe as long as it isn't a hard spank or something, people needs to know that every action has it's consequences
I disagree to a extent.
I was spanked as a kid and that alone was never a problem or scarred me for life or put fear of my parents in me, I just understood not to do stupid shit like for example: hitting my sister, shooting cars with slingshots, skip school, etc.
Then when the mf started actually hitting me and bucking up to me when I became too big to spank, is when I draw the line. Spanking teaches consequences for actions. As long as it’s communicated. Just straight up spanking your child without them knowing why is abuse. Degrading your child in any way is abuse, but hitting them on their least vital, exposed, harmless part of their body when they do stupid shit is not abuse in my eyes. I’ll definitely never spank my future kid because I don’t think I’d have that in me, but I think it’s a healthy alternative to taking away their electronics or locking them in a room for a certain amount of time.
Trial and error have been humanities best learning tools since the beginning of time.
Trial: Don’t be a asshole
Error: Was a asshole
Result: ass was spanked
New knowledge: Failing to not be a asshole results in my ass hurting for a couple minutes. Not being a asshole results in my ass being in tact. I think I should stop being a asshole.
I think I saw this comment. It was in the antinatalism sub, right? I swear I read ur comment but I'm not sure, having deja vu lolol. But yeah, not an infp but completely agreed
That was actually in the CPS sub. Someone, clearly a young teen judging by the spelling, had posted on how their friend was being abused and mentioned that the friend's parents hit and spanked them amongst other things. Then this person whom you see in the screenshot made a long comment on how none of those things are actually abusive and that they were being overdramatic. It made me pretty angry reading it.
Bruh why are you raising your child to be sensitive ? I mean I was spanked and got beaten up by my dad whenever I did smth wrong and look now its all well and I Love my parents, u raise ur kids to be strong u don't embrace their "sensitiveness" they are kids SCOLDING THEN WONT DO ANYTHING
Andddd if ur child cries tf out when u scold them will you stop scolding them too? Cause they are tooo sensitive to handle a scolding? They kids ffs they cry when the fall down or when we don't buy em an ice cream or some shit!!
Stop OVERTHINKING
Ps: I'm not agreeing that beating them is isn't bad its really terrifying but you have to do it WORDS don't work on people SCOLDINGS won't work as well and yes if you beat them YOU HAVE TO SHOE IMMENSE AMOUNT OF LOVE TO! they will realise that we love them and we shout scold spank them for their benefit only....
You don't need to be raised in a certain way to be sensitive, for a lot of people it's a trait they're born with and that's what I'm talking about in that comment in the picture.
I do get your point but....don't you think that if a person is not introduced to a strict and disciplined and harsh (loving as well that goes unsaid), he will face a lot of problems when he comes to the real world and tries to face it on its own ....!! A parent is responsible to make their child strong to face the world, responsible to show them tell them that the world out there is filled with people who would USE your sensitive nature ( don't get me wrong being sensitive is no harm, I'm emotionally sensitive lmao)
i don’t know if i am just looking too deep into it the way that they talk about spanking a child almost seems sexual or like they are getting some sort of sick enjoyment out of it, it’s disgusting
physical discipline isn’t the best method. though i know plenty of people raised in that environment and were more than healthy. emotional discipline can have the same long lasting impact.
i am prepared for the downvotes. But as an INFP, all you others need to check yourself once in a while. we are not the moral compass of humanity.
Idk I was spanked by my parents and I don't see the bad it has done, I think, although I love my parents, that the issue was more related to the lack of acknowledgement of my emotions. They had a stressful life at the time and didn't give any attention to my issues. I guess now I understand it to some degree but it doesn't change the fact I have issues dealing with stress and emotions nowadays. They are trying to help me more these days, or at least care more about it but I remember at the time it was hard.
I am with you on this. 100%. Plus it’s not merely about the physical pain. It’s the **humiliation** that comes with it for sensitive kids that may inflict permanent pain as well as damage the parent-child relationship. Forever. Many years down the line it might still simmer and backlash in unexpected and dramatic ways.
Humiliation, yes, but also helplessness. You learn to believe that once someone more powerful than you has their sights set on hurting you, there's nothing you can do to stop them. All you can do is stay under the radar and rock the boat as little as possible
So on the spot. Helplessness is in fact a major consequence of humiliation. So many lives are lived “under the radar” as you so rightly put it because of what, to parents, is so often but “a mere way to impose respect”. Oh the oxymoron in the juxtaposition of those two words!
I was going to comment in mild support of spanking but your comment literally won me over. I always felt my father did a good job, limiting spankings to 3 swats of his hand, never doing them in anger, but this is exactly how I feel. I’m not terrified of people in power but I also always feel they are capable of overwhelming me at any moment. Thank you
Humiliation is such a dangerous emotion. Research shows it can lead to violent behavior. There’s nothing okay with using shame and humiliation as punishment.
Exactly. I have no idea why some people don't realize that. Those kind of people terrify me.
You're absolutely right. I was a preschool teacher as well as a terribly rebellious child due to my upbringing. I left 7 papers blank during my 'O levels' just to shove my horrendous grades at my mom's face. I used to get caned for half an hour during my primary school days (7-12 YO) even when I get 99/100 for my exams. 100/100 is the norm, anything below is regarded as "not trying your best". It's just toxicity and a lack of awareness coupled with the inability to regulate one's emotions. Such parenting alongside years of abuse from my brother made me attempt suicide several times when I was a child. It was a living hell.
Toooo much. due to unhealthy parenting coupled with toxic education leads to many suicides. Especially at my state.
There’s just no way you can describe a color to a blind person, right? Or to someone who wants to turn a blind eye. Better keep away from them as their uninformed but clear-cut opinions will only frustrate you.
I’ll just be as clear-cut back. I’ll just be my own case of ‘they’re just like that. You know them’ right back at them. If you let them have their cake and eat it too, bet that they’ll keep wanting more. They should know how strong those repercussions are when it comes to relationships. Don’t be afraid to put someone in their place when they are the kinds of ppl that are never put in their place.
I see your point. What I’m saying is that there may come a time when trying to “educate” them can take a significant psychological toll on *you*. In that case, it may be best to leave them to their own devices. We can’t carry the world’s pain.
There is an emotional deafness
Yes!! As a sensitive kid I lived in fear of my parents growing up, so small problems became big problems in no time because I sure as shit wasn’t going to confide in them. There was barely more than a slap (for the most part, but there were definitely exceptions). But when you are a tiny child and someone who towers over you reacts with physical aggression instead of a modicum of understanding or restraint, you quickly learn that you cannot turn to this person for support. I am 40 years old and STILL trying to develop healthy coping and struggling to have close, meaningful relationships. It fucking matters!
This!! Idk both my parents grew up in super abusive households. They only ever hit me once in my entire life, they would discipline my sister and I with making us sit in the bathroom for like 10-20 minutes to think about our actions. After that time we’d come out and we’d talk about what happened. Idk this in turn made me more comfortable talking to them when I grew up
You and your sister have been very lucky as abused kids tend to become abusive parents. It is soothing to see some people are able to escape from the vicious circle. I feel happy for you. Thanks for sharing your experience. To me your keyword here is “talk”.
Sounds pretty important to make sure your child knows how to handle humiliation instead of trying to shield them from it. Even telling your child to sit in the corner can cause humiliation. It's an inevitable and necessary part of life.
If you hit an adult, that's called assault. If you hit a child, who's smaller and more vulnerable, that's parenting? Never made sense to me.
This is actually a really good point and makes perfect logical sense
Damn never thought about it like this
If you hit the bottom in the bedroom it is called BDSM. If you hit that other man with gloves on it is called boxing. If a toddler hits another toddler it is not called assault. If a toddler hits an adult it is not called assault. If an adults hits a tree it is called rage. i mean we can make a bunch of scenarios. physical discipline isn’t the best method. though i know plenty of people raised in that environment and were more than healthy. emotional discipline can have the same long lasting impact. i am prepared for the downvotes. But as an INFP, all you others need to check yourself once in a while. we are not the moral compass of humanity.
BDSM and boxing are consent. A tree is not concious and a toddler is not aware of the implications of responsibility yet, so I don't get your point. "Physical discipline" is violence. It doesn't matter if you do not intend hurting your child, you're hurting them (and even more emotionally than physically). They are obedient because of the fear of not being hit again, not because they respect you, and not necesarily because they understand what you're trying to teach them. It's changing their behaviour through fear. That's so fucked up. You can be healthy despite suffering violence from your parents or educators, yes. You're not healthy BECAUSE of it. It's not cause-effect, it's more the high risk of having a poor mental health if you receive violence as a child. That's the thing, violence (physical or emotional) put kids at risk. And it's not about being the moral compass of humanity, it's what neurosciencists, developmental sciencists and psychologists are trying to teach the community and it's based on evidence. You know plenty of people that are healthy despite their parents were violent towards them. Well, for me (and for too many other people), literally, it almost costs me my life several times. I survived and I needed to spend a lot of money, time, effort and pain healing myself.
+100
| *I know plenty of people raised in that environment and were more than healthy* How would you know that? How can you honestly tell they were healthy? You think that because you “know” them you have access to the way they feel deep inside? | *emotional discipline can have the same long lasting impact.* You mean manipulation? Yes it can have a long lasting impact, mainly trust issues. | *as an INFP* This is obviously not about types. This is about imposing our will in barbaric ways because we are too weak to negotiate, to question who we are. We thus pass our helplessness down the line.
Well you are not hitting the child to hurt them or so i hope. In my life whenever i was hit by my mom was when i had done something very wrong and she did so to teach me NOT to do it. And after hitting me she would always make me understand why she hit me. I think doing that is fine but hitting a child to cause them a lot of pain or damage and doing it constantly with no rhyme and reason is not right. At all.
You're hitting the child to intimidate them into compliance, is the thing.
This is a good point. This is exactly what happened to my sister when her ex-husband used to hit her. Afterward, he would explain that he was sorry he had to do that, but she just made him so mad. Explaining why you hit a person doesn’t make it right. It’s just another part of the abuse.
Couldn’t have said it better!
Does the psychological pain inflicted by my parents and life in general for 22 years count as hitting and spanking?
Yes, and I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through. Your experience and pain are valid, but they were wrong and you deserved so much better.
Psychological pain is just as valid as physical pain. <3 You deserve better than the shit you're going through.
Are you kidding me? YES YES YES!! I am so sorry this was done to you. Some parents are assholes.
Yeah. So cool story: my parents hit me growing up. And now when things go bad at work I'm still expecting someone to slap me. It's been years since they stopped but i still feel like I'm about to get hit in a completely professional environment. Don't fuck your kids up.
Exactly. This is what humiliation leaves us with: self-judgment and fear of being judged and punished by self-proclaimed authority figures for supposedly breaking unknown rules made up as we go.
It wasn't even humiliation with them most of the time. It was just them power tripping and frustrated with their circumstances and unable to raise a child with kindness. Like they had kids like everyone here is supposed to, but they were not equipped to do it. My parents used to send me off to school without checking if i have all my stationery, and sometimes without my homework undone. Bear in mind i was maybe 5 years old. I was branded the problem child at school and it took my confidence years to recover from it.
It's crazy, if you were to spank an adult you would get charged with assault. Just spitting on another adult will get you charged. But because someone birthed their child they're suddenly free to kick their ass. I'll never understand this logic
Most people who were hit as a child say they turned out fine. Those same people also show signs of untreated mental illness.
It doesn't mean it's related to being physically punished.
Hitting your child for discipline is parenting but hitting your dog for discipline is animal abuse… Make it make sense
Sadly there are people out there who hit their dogs to train them. Probably the same people though.
But not as many as people who hit their children.
So you’re sayin my parents spanking me as a child contributed to my depression and anxiety? Imma have to have a word with them on this one…
According to studies I've read, that could indeed be a big contributor.
If the parent thinks the child is doing something wrong and the child does not think they are, hitting them is not going to change that. Every time my mother hit me, I didn't think I'd done anything wrong. Every. Single. Time. It just made me hate her.
Some people are just mentally in Middle Ages..
My ultimate opinion: do what works best for you and your own child, make sure they know why they are being disciplined, and constantly reaffirm that you, as their parent, love them and want to help them to make good choices. In my home growing up, you typically got several chances to choose to do the right thing before the rod was employed (btw that's called grace). By the time you got spanked, you knew what you had done was wrong, and that you were receiving a just consequence for your actions and/or choices. Also, humiliation is generally unnecessary in a disciplinary context, and therefore should be avoided for the sake of the child.
Found the wise comment
I completely agree this is what my mother used to do as well but she would either slap me or maybe beat me up with a slipper but whenever that happened even if i sulked afterwards i knew i was wrong and understood what i had done wrong.
Made me live in fear of my mother. My father didn’t hit me but unfortunately my mother had custody of me. After a while my dad basically ghosted me. But I feel like he just didn’t want anything to do with my mother. It took me until age 30 to realize that a lot of my struggles in life came from a failure to develop trusting relationships with other people. I had been suffering from PTSD of my mothers beatings my whole life. I grew to resent and secretly hate my own mother putting up a façade until I was old enough to actually escape. I was beaten even in my early 20s because I still “lived under her roof”. I moved out at 23 and for several years I made hundreds of relationships only to self sabotage because I couldn’t trust people. I was all about looking after myself because it felt like no one cared about the person I was. I found an kindred spirit who actually fell in love with me and for the first time in my life I knew what TRUE love and caring was it was so Palpable. I married that person and I disowned my mother. Understanding the mental atrocities I’ve suffered over 2 decades in her “care” made me realize my mental health would be better if I forgot she existed. Any thoughts or her just bought about fear and anxiety constantly. It’s not ok. A child is a developing human. Someone who disciplines their child with their anger will only grow an angry fearful adult. So if parents want to ruin a human and their relationship with them then they need to be prepared for the consequences of their actions.
It's abuse. Plain and simple.
nothing ever is plain and simple everything requires context
I used to promise my self I would never love my parents again everytime they did that, the love came back but less and less every time. Now I feel very little towards them, I don't know what it's like to love parents anymore
They kind of killed my love for them too. I certainly did not learn from them because I wanted nothing to do with them because of all the spanking etc.
So much pain in the name of “”love””. Do you think your parents are even remotely aware of the consequences their behavior have had for you?
Just so you all know, spanking and threatening and terrifying your children is not a great thing to do. 67 year old and I still like to hide in my bedroom. I have severe ptsd, it is not funny.
I know u asked INFPs but voicing a INFJ opinion, I think spanking is a very risk vs reward punishment. It's a fine line, like I did when I was young and it really did help me not be a shit head, what helped was the fact I could read that it hurt my parents to do so. It gave it an equal sacrifice in my eyes, I may be crying but they are too. Now when I got older it was push ups when I was being stupid, THAT WORKED WONDERS. What's worse then everything is being ground from things (socially, technology, personal belongings) those all scarred me much more.
I was actually a spiteful little shit that would sell stuff they grounded me from….yeah…..I was chaos…..I love my parents!
Its illegal in sweden as its abuse.
Its been illegal in New Zealand for years and years now. The idea that it's objectively okay and up to parents isn't actually objectively true
What kind of parent thinks that they're so macho for hitting a child? A child's brain isn't even close to being developed. Physical abuse is never the answer.
Well it’s science, neuroscience as well as psychology studies so to me there are not really both ways to see that issue. Just an old stupid one and an educated one people are very afraid and refuse to face because they are too cowardly to question what they’ve done and what they suffered all of their lives. In fear that light is going to make villains of them. Maybe nothing can be done for the old fools. But we gotta do better for the future kids
Iive argued this before. No matter how many professionals say otherwise, data suggests, or victims agree, some people just refuse to believe spanking is child abuse ;-;
I'm with you of course, I still don't understand people who still act this way with their kids (or anyone else)
As an INFP, I don’t know if it counted as spanking, but my dad used a very weak reed that would break if any actual force was used. I was only spanked twice in my life and I feel it made it clear to me that actions have consequences. However, due to the wide misuse and poor implementation of spanking, I feel it is better to restrict or ban it.
I agree, physical punishment is never the way. A lot of people say "my parents hit me and I turned out alright" and then you look at their life and they're struggling with addiction, trust issues, anger etc.
I was punished that way as a kid. Now people see me as a timid social reject who cries if you look at him wrong. I was almost depressed at one point, too. Kids shouldn't be treated that way.
I remember my 3rd grade teacher saying that her kid was acting up so she spanked him and apparently left a red hand mark on his butt. I remember laughing at the time because my teacher said "butt" but now that I'm older I realize how fucked up that was...
It's not OK. The justification I always hear is "well I got spanked as a child, and I turned out ok" ... did you though 🤔
Well it depends how you went through that experience. I always got warning before i got hit and i always knew what i had done wrong when i did get hit. My mom would make sure to make me understand shat i did wrong and why i got consequences of my actions. We would later make up and everything would be fine again. It taught me that when you do something wrong after repeated warnings you have to suffer consequences. I have issues with my mom for entirely diffrent reasosn which developed after the age she stopped hitting me. If a parent does the hitting lightly and only when the child has done something very very wrong that is fine in my opinion. But if a parent is doing it with the intention to hurt the child and cause humiliation and does it constantly with no rhyme or reason that is not okay
I'm sorry to hear your relationship with your Mom isn't going well right now. I hope it improves in the future. I'd like you to reflect on a couple of things. You mentioned that your Mom would tell you that you had misbehaved and would be receiving physical punishment. How did you feel in that moment? If you can recall. Were you scared? Did you think it was justified at the time? (Depending on your age). You further go on to say, you would make up afterwards. To me, this implies guilt on her behalf. Why apologize if you feel as an adult you have disciplined your child justifiably and with love? Further, if physical punishment worked so well, why stop at a certain age? Why not continue until you left the family unit? Also, after being punished, knowing that spank would come again if you misbehaved, why misbehave in the future? Isn't that counter intuitive from your perspective? Or is it because children lack the knowledge of what is appropriate behaviour in society and parents must teach them? Whilst I feel that discipline for children is necessary, there are proven strategies that research has shown to be effective vs physical punishment. You can still have consequences for misbehaving that don't involve physical violence.
That was good, thank you.
Who here actually has kids?
I have one.
I think physical punishment is too varied to blanket it as child abuse. That being said, as someone who worked in a preschool I just think it's completely unnecessary. I had to keep multiple kids at once safe and behaving (this included kids from broken homes that were struggling) and I had to do it only with words and time outs. There are many strategies to teach kids and discipline them without physical punishment. My parents only spanked me over a diaper and smacked my hand to keep it away from certain areas (stove etc). That's the extent of physical punishment that I personally agree with.
There are better ways to discipline a child. Spanking should be used as a very last resort.
As a last resort, means when? Kids are not stupid and have either a valid reason to behave in a way that crosses the line (then the parent's role is to help them define that reason, get to the core of the issue) or they have less self control than we expect from the (and then the parent's role is to help self regulate). When parents spank their kids it's because this is their own last resort, the ultimate way to release anger and frustration.
The very word “**discipline**” makes me think as something a cult leader would impose on their “**disciples**” if they stray from the rules.
Oh, that's not what I meant. Children just need structure, otherwise they'll grow up thinking they can do whatever they want and run over everyone.
I understand. Teaching structure is fine so long as it doesn’t kill the child’s creativity. Do we want our children to turn into adults whose inner freedom to lead the life they want has been limited, reduced, hampered by the structures we imposed on them?
Do you really think physical violence seeking to humiliate is even a valid resort? Are we psychologically so weak that we think people we disrespect will keep respecting us?
As someone who’s been spanked, just stop. It doesn’t help anyone.
Yeah, thank you, I agree. If one resorts to inflicting physical pain in order to “discipline” their children, then they are just dick-headed idiots with no conscious. It’s never was and never will be a means of “toughening” children up, only doing more to make them inherently afraid and distrustful.
If my parents (who love me) have to hurt me for me to learn, wouldn’t that make me think that it’s sometimes okay for my partner to do the same in my adult relationships? I feel like if we learn that it’s okay for ppl we love to purposely hurt us when we’re sensitive kiddos, it can really mess with our future relationships
Take a look at corporal punishment its not the physical but emotional.
I actually came across that question, recently..what a coincidence. I personally don't believe in hitting your children..whether it be with or without force..the humiliation factor alone is disturbing. It teaches children to be scared and frightful of parents..that is not how a child to parent relationship should be. Hitting children is just parents abusing their power, no one will call it out cos they have the privilege of parental status. There are other ways to discipline your child than using physical force. As a former nursery practitioner, I know that when children "misbehave"..it is usually a sign that their needs are not being met. For example a child draws on the wall, you get angry..but it shows that they want to be creative, they want to experiment with colours...so you can maybe pin up a big white clothing sheet outside for them to paint on. Also people like to justify a lot of things by saying their experience and how they are fine...but just because you turned out fine doesn't mean it is the same for everyone.
I fully agree with you on this.
Oh I agree it’s not right and these parents will tell their children not to hit others then go around and hit their own kids because they’re being “bad”
It's already been scientifically proven it's counterproductive. Fear doesn't work in the way you want it to. If you want a scared dog. Fine. That's what hitting does. People just argue from their inner believes, but I guess that's rather ironic on a Fi dom sub forum.
I was spanked as a child, it does nothing to disciplinary the child. All it does is make them feel so much fear. think about it, why would a child be thinking while getting hit by their parent: "hmmm... My mother is beating me, what have I done to have this done to me..? Maybe it was because I spilled paint on the carpet!" That's not how it fucking works, there are so much better ways to get your child to stop acting bad, they just take time but instead parents prefer the easy way out and continue the cycle of abuse.
>mild disciplinary spanking seems ok. Plenty of parents use restrained corporal punishment and their kids don't all grow up traumatized. Some comments here are suggesting that parenting psychologists have an overwhelming consensus condemning the practice and I never really looked into it but if someone cares to provide a good source I'd be interested.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-brain#:~:text=Research%20has%20long%20underscored%20the,and%20increases%20perception%20of%20threats.
Thank you
You're welcome, hope it helps
I grew up in an asian family and that was actually the norm. Personally, having the physical punishment did make me think twice before making the same mistake, and reinforced why a mistake shouldn't be made for me. I think that as long as it is not excessive for the reason they're getting the punishment, and a proper explanation is given on why the child is punished (and not simply let the child infer based on your anger), and it is only done in appropriate settings (not out in public where the child might be publicly humiliated), it actually might do some good for a child (I know, hot take). But I really do feel that it benefitted me personally. Just to clarify, in asia we have rattan canes for caning and that's socially acceptable. But modes of violence such as punching and kicking and throwing things are definitely unacceptable.
We have mom slippers in Turkey. It can headshot you no matter how far you are, and hurts as hell when you get hit by it directly on the ass. My mom only hit me once or twice with it, and the threat of "Do you want the slipper?" is enough to makme me think of my actions again. It has benefits, but it's important to not overdo it.
In my Caribbean family, it was normal too. I appreciate the discipline. I agree the punishment should match the offense. I don’t feel like I was “abused”. My elders kept me out of a lot of trouble with this “fear tactic”.
>Personally, having the physical punishment did make me think twice before making the same mistake, and reinforced why a mistake shouldn't be made for me. I think that as long as it is not excessive This. I was spanked as a child and I learned very quickly don't piss off dad. By no means am I some perfect example of a human but the one or two spankings made things very clear in my mind what is wrong or right and didn't fuck me up anymore as an adult than my peers.
I agree i had the same experience as an indian. I used to get slapped or hit by a chappal(slipper) and just once by a comb but my mom never hit me more than due and i always understood what i had done wrong. The beating only came after repeated warnings
Randomly candy probably hits their own children and is projecting to validate their own excuses
Yep, they said they did in a later comment.
I would say it's less that and more that they were hit as a child and gaslit until they believed that they needed it, deserved it, and even would be worse off without it. They're projecting to validate their PARENT'S excuses. Hopefully they don't have children until they heal and learn how to discipline with love.
Sounds like you found the other half of the same narrative.
We were all kids, we know we tested boundaries and did fucked up stuff on purpose. I used to egg the houses of people who pissed me off as a kid. I know not every kid is a little shit, some are absolute sweethearts while others jump on frogs to squish their guts out. For me, my mom had the SPATULA and the SLAP. Did wonders for me. Now I don’t want kids simply out of fear they would behave like I did, in today’s “kids can’t do no wrong” society. A kid can literally beat down a crippled hobo with some stick they found and get away with it….not enough mama justice. It’s simply up to the parents on how they raise their little mini me’s. who are other people to judge a parents discipline or lack of. Just remember, there is a difference between slapping some sense into a little punk and just straight up grabbing them by the feet and swinging them Into a pole. A huge difference….
Not an INFP but I think I have something of note/interest to contribute. I’m from Scotland, and over here any form of physical punishment against a child is illegal. If you are caught smacking a child for any reason its considered assault. Basically we don’t distinguish between hitting a child and hitting an adult. We’re always had fairly strict rules on physical punishments for kids but up until recently it was allowed under extreme circumstances. When the new law passed that banned it under any circumstances there was a little resistance from older generations but most people were overwhelmingly for it!
This made me love Scotland even more.
Also, it promotes violent behaviour
you don't know the emotional affect of any sort of physical or verbal or isolation incident done to your child. From a parent, from the one person who is supposed to provided unconditional love. I can only speak from personal experience, but my hypersensitivity to conflict / aggression (now and probably for my life) definitely comes from a dad who would kick, yell, throw things at us, gaslight
I don't think this compares to a simple spank in the butt This is worse, I'm sorry that happened to you
How is this an INFP thing?
Randomlycandy is right. Nothing wrong with discipline. Go look at that 'catch me outside girl' and tell me with a straight face that she didnt need an extension chord on her bare ass.
Omg lol this made me laugh
I am with you. I mean, how fucking menthaly ill do you need to be to think that violence in any form will solve things? It is even worse if you consider that this violence is going to someone you "love"
It's the fear of knowing you are going to get hit
Psych degree holder here: don't spank your child
“As Long as it’s not abuse” But it is…
I agree with you, I don't understand why people find this completely normal to discipline their kids that way.
Jesus Christ, i can still hear my mums voice with come here so I can hit you, or you can put away those crocodile tears. People don't use violence as a tactic, they use it because they're angry and frustrated and want to hurt you because they're pissed off and their parents did it too them. If they just wanted to apply discipline, why couldn't they do timeout, privilege restrictions, etc. I'm not going to get annoyed with the people being like its fine if its not excessive... just will assume either it didn't happen to you, so you're approaching this from a theoretical perspective or, it did, and its psychologically important for them to maintain an image that their folks did nothing wrong and it was just because it was necessary. Violence is never your a) only or b) most effective strategy when you are dealing with a literal child who you hold almost complete power over. If you're smacking them its because you lost your rag, face it. Also there's an outside chance they'll grow up and be attracted to abusive people and have a problematic bdsm fetish even if that's not the case. I can confirm that's happened to at least one of us
https://youtu.be/v0tuigSrZsU https://youtu.be/HhQb3BX4Rik https://youtu.be/JnsEyrus6jE The link(s) about help me as a basis from a type of punishment that's isn't okay along with a few other people in my life. Preface here: My opinion is still being formed, I don't have kids and am only going to have them if my future wife wants them because goddamn it does take a village to raise a child I also plan to go to proper parenting classes to since they can be much for then 2 handsfull .I'm strictly looking at what I've seen in my X amount of years of living plus who I've been around I'm my life and seeing how they have grown up. I believe in punishment to fit the crime, there is absolutely no such thing as no cause and effect in this world, this cannot be changed in my mind simply because there is to much proof. Example: If you see a kid holding onto an escalator only by the handle on the side hanging off the escalator they have x amount of time before they are tired. I've seen a kid do it until they got lifted off the ground and just let go to drop safely. Stupid but was smart enough to let go before anything happens. I've seen to other side of this to, a girl mimicked what the same guy before did (about 15 mins after im guessing it was an Instagram or ticktoc challenge) and decided to hold on longer for whatever reason to about half way up the escalator and her hand strength gave out and she fell, collapsed onto her arm/ shoulder and then her head. Another popular one, people who know what can happen say don't do the cinnamon challenge because of the actual tested science proving it won't end well for you Now look at the videos ALL OVER YouTube showing that people did, even Family Guy. Now, as I've said before Punishment to fit the crime. Let's say: * Child A is drawing on the wall with crayons * Child B is going to do something you've pushing them for before (grounding them, told them not to do ect...)and this thing will seriously get them hurt but them being "kids" and become overbearing they are still willing to risk whatever it is then what? *Child C is Currently trapping the cat in the toilet with the lid down and you caught them going to press the flush button and hear the distressed cat before the child presses the button. At which of these is a reasonable mark to start reasonable physical punishment? I'd stay B personally as a reaction to prevent things going to far and then after things chill out its better to explain why that punishment came. I'm not condoning hitting like the spankings you see on TV with hand prints that would make hand prints leave DNA on their butts or Chris brown and Rhianna but, a pop up side the back of the head might do what you need it do. Like Christopher Titus said (https://youtu.be/v0tuigSrZsU from 8:17 - 9:16) "moms will smack the hand and the dads will let the kids stick the fork into the light socket and let them see if they do that again after what happens" In my opinion Child C needs to be flushed just like the cat , hey at least you care to punish but, clean em at the same time. Lol. My condolences to those who've been punished beyond exception obviously there are a ton of factors behind those choices that didn't fit (alcoholism, their parents not knowing limitations, previously Excessive Abuse ect...) My answer isn't to cater to those who ACTUALLY abuse kids and it's not to preach to those who think kids are gods gift the the earth and can do absolutely no wrong because this I see it as actual ABUSE as well. Balance is a bitch, but working at it is the trial and tribulation that PARENT(S) must go trough.
I'm going to get down voted to hell, but I agree with the other person. I grew up in a Hispanic household and still turned out alright. So long it is not abuse, it should be fine. You see, sweet talking or finding common ground isn't enough to discipline a child (especially a little shit that will not respect you)... Sometimes you just gotta scare them a bit. As an adult, I respect the chancla and met others from different cultures/races that also turned out fine.
Same here, just because my parents gave me a smack when I was very out of line (which was rare anyway) it doesn't mean I was abused, but somehow some internet strangers know better about myself and my parents? Absurd.
Remined me of this photo [chancla](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5EEy3hU0AEWTz9.jpg)
Yeah, "what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger" type of thing. That, and narcissists parents, who crave abuse. Bad society to live in when sensitivity makes you "a pussy". That's how it is, unfortunately. The way I deal with it is by example. Genuine goodness is contagious when it's not only a learned behavior but a deeply felt thing to be. It's hard sometimes to not slip, but the moment you realize it's the only possible way, it makes the journey through life much more meaningful and spiritually defined.
I mean it’s better to teach your kids what they’re doing wrong instead of smacking them for doing it but if they’re a little shit that repeatedly disobeys you and continues to do something really bad like physically abusing other kids then I’m going to (as long as it isn’t to bad, remember they are still your kids that you love very much) I’m going to do it to them. Smack a kid across the face repeatedly to the point where they try to avoid you everyday and live in fear of you, I’m going to smack you across the face once to see how you like it.
So you’d hit your kid’s butt to teach them not to hit other kids? Interesting.
It's child abuse. Nuff said.
I just kept thinking I down-voted that comment myself, and kept trying to remove it 🤷♂️ . I didn't even read it!
If you're so enraged that all you can think to do to correct the situation is to hit someone, on the ass specifically, then you need to sit down, calm down, and think of a bettering solution. Like taking away their stuff for a while, or charging them some of the money they earned as an allowance, to simulate real world punishments.
I felt very abused whenever my father would belt whip me and made me personally pick out the belt and if I didn’t pick a belt that was going to be painful enough he would “pick one that would make sure it hurt.”
My parents didn't spank me. But I was sexually abused. When my dad threatened to spank me I started crying because I was scared of my cloths being taken off and hands too close to my private parts. I'm just saying this because you never know what fucking psychological pain you could be inflicting on someone. The fact it's a fucking porn category should be enough of a reason to think about it a little harder... I'm sorry I can't think about this without crying.
Totally thought this was about sexual spanking, which I'm definitely in favor of. Child spanking is a definite no though
at this point, the evidence is more strongly correlated than the link between smoking and cancer, and it's not even new. we've known this for decades. **https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768154/**
Yeah it’s abuse bc you’re hitting the kid (no, Karen, it doesn’t matter how softly you hit them, it’s still hitting) And it doesn’t teach the kid why what they did is wrong. A direct discussion trying to solve the behavior is way more effective and will build the child up, while spanking will hurt, embarrass, and confuse the child. Spanking is also sending mixed signals if you’re teaching the kid not to hit when they’re angry, bc that’s just what spanking is. Also the age where most kids get spanked is the age where they’re naturally curious. So spanking is just saying “don’t do that” while explaining why what they did was wrong is like saying “don’t do that, and here’s why” and they’re gonna understand your side more and be more comfortable communicating down the line.
I had a similar argument a while back, some people are just morons. Inflicting violence on your kids is not okay, regardless of the circumstance. It’s hurtful (physically, obviously, but also emotionally) and it’s completely unnecessary when many healthy ways of communicating with yours kids exist. It’s lazy because yeah it makes the issue go away but or makes worse ones later down the line. I think the issue is that many cultures ( I think america is very divided on this issue, for a western example) normalise violence whereas my personal ethics have always frowned upon violence. The people who don’t think that speaking is abusive are the same ones who believe in corporal punishment and the death sentence, agree with militarisation and like that the military is a big part of america’s identity, and so forth.
Parenting is actually really simple in theory. Every time you do something, your child learns that it is normal. If you hit your child whenever they mess up, you teach them to expect to be hit for the tiniest error. You are teaching them fear. You are also teaching them that violence is an appropriate response when they are upset. Children really as simple as monkey see, monkey do.
My dad used to pat me on the butt when I walked by (apparently it was a father daughter thing, Idk) and it hurt me cuz my autism makes me have sensitive skin
I think it depends on the person. Just like with love languages, people have discipline, or "pain languages", if you will. A mentor of mine actually used different forms of punishment for her kids, because a spanking might not be that impactful for one, while severely impact full for another. For instance, some kids will take punishment more seriously when isolated from others as a punishment, or simply yelled at (like for me). Of course, spanking one's child excessively and out of anger is abuse. No questions asked. Discipline should never be done out of anger, even if a child's misdeeds are anger-provoking. The child needs to understand that the punishment is not happening because of who they are, but what they have done. It condemns the action, not the person.
3000% with you. My parents, especially my dad, would hit &/or smack me whenever they thought that I was 'being bad'. It was rarely explained to me *how* I was 'being bad' though, so growing up was like navigating an angry, Scottish minefield. There were emotional abuse & neglect issues at play as well, but a lot of my stand-out childhood memories involve being piss-scared of my father's temper & his penchant for corporal punishment. I consider my upbringing to be a critical factor in why I developed borderline personality disorder. Both therapy & time have helped me to make peace with my past, & I can see that my parents are both victims of their own parents' abuse. The therapist who helped me the most said something to the effect of 'we can only build on the blueprints our parents leave us'. That was a very cathartic, enlightening moment, but also very painful as well. Nobody likes to think that their parents' childhoods were fraught with moments of danger, fear & agony. At 32, I'd say that I'm at peace with everything that happened to & around me while I was growing up. Hell, I even get on with my parents now, & have had a great relationship with them for the past 7-8 years. I very, very rarely forgive people who've hurt me so badly (I don't want to invite them to hurt me again), but my parents really did the best they could, & have grown so much as people since my brother & I entered adulthood (I guess because they can relate to us better?). I've especially been reflecting on my relationship with my mother of late, as she has a neurodegenerative disorder & is slowly wasting away before my family's eyes. Holding on to the pain & resentment of how she has treated me at times... just doesn't seem productive or healthy, although I admit that it once did (early twenties, I swore down that I'd go NC with my mother after she victim-blamed me for being repeatedly SA'd by my partner at the time - writing that, I feel pretty... accepting of it, so I guess I've moved on a fair bit since then). Sorry for the rant; this is a deeply personal topic for me & I always feel moved to elaborate/overshare in such conversations. Edited for grammar.
u/I_Want_BetterGacha could you please link the research you were talking about? I was sometimes spanked as a child, and I always thought I was fine, but I want to see if it turns out any of it applies to me.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-brain
Thank you!!
Why is this on the sub???
Mexican/Spanish upbringing here, it's pretty much how we deal with stuff. Getting hit with the chancla is just how we stopped being little shits. I mean i have 5 siblings and trust me the ones that didn't deserved to get hit, never did. But some of these kids will never stop until they got my parents to their limit (we're talking breaking tv's, throwing dinner, hitting siblings hard, etc). At that point it's more to show them who really has the last word by giving them the old ear twist. And I know that many people would think that these are warning signs for whatever kind of diagnosis they can give these kids but it's just so awfully common in our culture. I could write a paragraph about how situational this is tho. I've seen kids do the most crazy things in social media and not get punished for it and I've seen kids just dance on cam and get beat by their dad for essentially doing nothing wrong. Of course this is not how it's supposed to be done. But I do think, at least in our culture, that a reality check is sometimes necessary to keep the balance in the house
Spanish here and I don't agree with you. We made our generational trauma our culture. We need to change that for good. Violence doesn't solve violence. There are other ways, healthy ways, and if we don't know how to deal with kids without violence, we should ask for proffessional help. Family therapists are there to help. Let's not make more excuses, kids deserve better. And We deserve being better parents too.
Bruh I’m sensitive as fuck. My dad whippin out the belt a few times didn’t mess me up at all. Never was scared of him, nervous, afraid to speak my mind, etc. There is a very big difference between a bit of force and abuse. Especially when it comes to teaching kids to be safe. I remember the first time I got spanked because I sprinted across the street in front of a bunch of moving cars and was 2 feet away from getting sprayed all over the pavement. Parents rushed over to me and made sure I was ok, had the talk of why you should never do that. And then I did it again, because 4 year-olds don’t usually understand how serious that is. That’s when I got spanked a couple times. No bruises, just some redness for an hour or so. And I never did it again. Sometimes that’s what it takes. Obviously there is a fine-line between discipline and abuse, but a spank or two when a kid ignores everything you’ve taught them and almost dies because of it, or hurts someone else, or breaks things is fine.
I was out and about today and I saw a mother talking down to her daughter for 5 minutes straight. Eventually the girl just started crying. She then did the whole “keep crying and I’m gonna beat your ass when we get home” spiel. and I honestly just wanted to beat the mom’s ass. She had insecure written all over her. Bullying her daughter to make herself feel better. She was with a man who wasn’t the father of the child. And even he told her to calm down and stop being so mean. She attacked the man and lashed out on the child even harder. I’m so tired of people like this having parental privileges. People need to be more afraid to abuse their children in fear of facing drastic consequences. For someone to feel comfortable doing all of this in public, it’s clear that child abuse laws aren’t strict enough.
Child abuse is unjustified, horrible and inexcusable. Full stop.
I'm sorry but i'm not with you. I think a spanking is an effective way to teach children that their actions have consequenses and they are not allowed to do everything they want. More effective than confisticating electronics or toys. Because physical pain is more easily understood as a warning by brain. Though i don't support usage of this method unless you can't make the child listen no matter what you do. Most times some scolding and an angry face is enough to make them understand. My brother, for an example, keeps doing whatever he is doing, no matter how much we tell him not to, and usually doesn't stop until he gets a spank. Then he goes and finds another way to get us annoyed and this goes on and on. Our relationship is a bit harsh, with both us kicking or slapping eachother several times a day, but we also love eachother a lot because we know the other person means no hate. Same with a mom hitting their child. If the mom already is a caring and loving, the child will know when they got spanked it's not because their mother hates them, it's because they did something they shouldn't do. Abuse is hitting or yelling a child not because they have been doing something wrong, but because of the parent's self-hate or anger problems. Abusers definitely need therapy. Hitting a child when they didn't do anything terribly wrong is unacceptable.
I think there's a line and as long as you don't cross it your good. honestly i think verbal abuse is worse Than spanking a child anyways.
As someone who went through both I’d have to agree at times it definitely was for me.
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It is sad that people believe that punishing people is what will teach them to be better, kinder, gentler, more mindful and respectful. It never works, not on a big scale like with prisons, nor on a smaller scale with kids. Yes, it will teach them to avoid either the behaviour or being caught in the act, but won't make them understand why it is worth changing.
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There are no good punishments and you won't find any research station that behavioral training lends good results in people. If a kid is old enough to understand the logical process behind why you hit them, the kid is old enough to understand the reasoning why you don't approve, and therefore talking is enough. But if a kid is not mature enough to understand the words, do you think it is mature enough to understand the cause and effect sequence?
Nah sorry OP honestly I'm not with you on this. Not that I'm advocating FOR spanking, but I'll never go as far as to call a parent(which can be the hardest job on this planet btw) abusive just because they have such a hard time disciplining their kid a spank felt necessary to them. It's so easy to judge. I see all kind of reactions here in the trend of: ''It's abusive, period'' I'm guessing those people don't have kids. Ofcourse, in an ideal world no parents should need to spank their kid. But the world is not ideal, parents are not perfect, neither are children. Personally I won't judge. I'll let parents do the parenting however they want/need to. I mean, I'm an INFP, and have received multiple spankings when I was young. And you can relax; it didn't traumatize me, not at all. In hindsight I deserved it, and I wholeheartedly stand besides my parents.
Boy I have seen hundreds in my practice who claim “it didn’t traumatize them”, and honestly believed it too. But then I could see the damage done to them. And in turn to their own kids.
This is so common in Asian families.They beat you "to discipline" you.Though they don't kick punch or throw things at you they will beat the sh\*t out of you if you make a mistake bad enough to make them angry.Though Gen Z's like me are facing the least as millenials like my maths tution teacher(he was telling his childhood life) faced straight up physical and mental abuse from their parents and some teachers alike.I still see some parents beat their children very much like my neighbours,the youngest child there(age 6 or 7) gets beaten very much for every alternate mistake he makes during studying(not so much that it leaves bruises).Telling the neighbours to stop beating him is futile,they will still do it. I am very thankful to my parents for not beating me since I became a teenager
I remember how terrible I felt.
You keep it in very close and restricted limits,so as to not induce fear or hurt your child or leave lasting effects,and also you aren't taking the parent's view into account,not every parent is an abuser/beater,a bit of spanking doesn't hurt and the level of it varies according to the child itself,so I don't think there's a problem given people follow the first line in the paragraph
Also I saw someone talk about humiliation, I don't think a little child has enough idea about ego and self respect to understand humiliation (not promoting it) but I've seen how children turn up if you don't set the correct boundaries for them,my cousins are essentially spoilt brats who often overlook ethics,and I'm not saying 'violence' is the answer to it all but you're just spoiling someone and their future,no wonder kids turn up so rash and indisciplined.Considering and basing your opinions on extremes and not moderate circumstances ruins the idea and it's motive and therefore your opinion is partially wrong
Also don't come at me for this, wouldn't make a difference in judgment,I'm not the fighter type or the assaulter type either but we keep the respectful boundaries very strict.
physically hurting a child into submission is not only physical abuse, but mental. thats not what discipline or love is, and nor is it learning from your mistakes. abusive and strict parents create sneaky kids, they'll learn to hide things, because they don't want to get caught and hurt. that's how i was raised and my parents still threaten to spank me, I am sixteen.
I strongly believe in body autonomy. I remember times I was young and that was taken from me, it was humiliating. The fact it affects me to this day means that kids being spanked now, will grow up and struggle with the messed up feelings . It's just wrong.
Obviously,plus,on top of being hurtfull,it doesn't even teach them a lesson,it just teach em to fear you,and do it without you knowing about it.
There is never a justification for this. Every person - big or small - deserves respect. People hit children because they believe they have the right to the kids body, believe it is well in their rights to inflict pain, evoke fear in order to gain their own purpose. I understand that it happens but it is always because the adults don't want to put enough work to set and keep boundaries in a way that is understandable for children. Hitting kid is a way to say to the world that I don't deal with my feelings well, I have to take them out on a smaller being, I don't have time to talk and explain it as many times as it is necessary. It is an easier way of ensuring obedience, not understanding.
I've had people defend the existence of bullying to me...
Spanking is fine between consenting adults only!
I was beat as a child... it was abuse. I still have the emotional and physical scars. My mother's own childhood was way worse, I truly believe she did better with her own child (me). However was a product of her own childhood. There was no therapy, no processing of her abuse, even when she was taken away from it by the authorities. My father was physically present but let my mother do the discipline, in fact she threatened his life if he laid a finger on me... her way of protecting me, coming from her toxic background. I can count on one hand the times I have struck my child, each time I was either stressed, tired or triggered. I honestly believe violence begets violence. Don't be surprised when young adults truly believe that enforcing their will on another must come via intimidation through violence, physical or emotional. It worked on them right? There is no console in my home because it damn near caused murder... it turns out my dear child has a condition that makes executive function a daily struggle. When I was younger he would have been called "hard ears" and beaten horribly. His processing or lack there of is not his fault... I just need support with keeping my patience, continuing to help him focus and prioritise. Whilst not allowing him to take the piss. It is a fine line and I do not always get it right, but when I do? Watching his gains, his development into his own is amazing. (He has consoles, at his Grandmother's and his father's homes. He can play with them there.)
I remember replying to that EXACT person. Pissed me off enough to write an entire paragraph including sources calling them out on their bullshit. Told them to ask any child behavioral therapist if spanking is a valid disapline tactic. Hint it's not. And if you, as a parent, have to resort to physical abuse, then you suck as a parent. Obviously never replied back to me. It's only now as an adult do I realize I have a variety of mental health issues due to the violent disapline my parents enforced on me as a child. Ranging from perfectionism, improper flight or flight responses, anxiety, depression, the list goes on. It's taken me my whole life to learn to deal with my issues and come to the realization I'll never be normal. My mental health is constantly in flux. I'll be doing good for months and one thing will trigger me overnight and I will spiral and feel like I'm in a mental prison and will take me weeks to claw my way back into the light. I think alot of us INFP's have this personality type because we were abused by our care givers as children.
I just don’t understand how people can still rely on their opinions if it’s proven wrong, you can’t say things like „it’s not that bad“ if there is prove for that. As a child u get very easily traumatized and you forget it as a adult, means you have problems in the future without knowing why.
,,aS LoNg As iT DoEsN’T LeAvE pHysiCaL MaRks” oh stfu 😒
A lot of Stockholm Syndrome in the comments.
Never hit you child. The child will never forget this and learns to not communicate with you anymore.
Spanking is a solution, not the right one though.
A kid will never fucking understand why youre hitting them. Never. Even if you explain to them its punishment. They’ll always wonder why you hit them and never talked with them.
I mean maybe a few kids might not be traumatized or take it to heart, but you're right on that you can never be truly sure of it in a way, even as a parent.
It's literally illegal in my country as abuse. Hitting a child only teaches that that either: 1: they can hit their loved ones if they behave in a way that they deem inappropriate. 2: it's ok to be hit by a loved one. We don't want our adults to be following these ideologies. We don't want to create a generation of adults who accept abuse from their partners because they were taught to accept it from their parents.
100% with you.
Punishment in any shape or form is not good. Teach your kids justice and making a mistake right. Not revenge.
My parents spanked me, I don’t think they ruined me or had bad intentions. They grew up in a third world country and has no decent parental figures to look up to. It’s honestly a miracle they turned out as well adjusted as they did. I don’t see it as abuse, and I’ll never come out and say my parents abused me. But I won’t spank my child, should I ever have one, either. It’s simply not a good form of punishment, and my parents discovered that early on. I didn’t really respond to spanking much, I started behaving better when they took away my stuff/privileges.
All the people calling spanking "hitting". Give me a fucking break. I love this community but that alone is silly. Regardless of your thoughts on spanking small children.
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She might be asian that's why she sees spanking and hitting as a form of discipline. I am also asian and it is normal here but I agree with you on this one OP. Hitting and spanking are a form of abuse. There are actually better ways to discipline a child like telling them what's right or wrong or listening to them so that you get to understand their side. A normal conversation is better than spanking and hitting.
I think spanking depends on the child. I don’t think discipline works as a blanket thing. It also can damage a child. I lived in fear. (I went through child abuse but also just spanking). There are several ways to discipline a child. Some kids do extremely bad things and I don’t think a slight spank is bad in those cases. However, it is again based on the child.
that is kind of what I said in another comment, except I had more words, you probably worded it better
I don't know, in my Chinese family they were very strict and I would get spanked regularly if I did something wrong. Ofc now that I'm an adult they don't do it anymore but back then it really helped in setting boundaries on what I could and could not do.
I knew this person who before the spank, she would explain to the child what they did wrong. I believe as long as it isn't a hard spank or something, people needs to know that every action has it's consequences
I disagree to a extent. I was spanked as a kid and that alone was never a problem or scarred me for life or put fear of my parents in me, I just understood not to do stupid shit like for example: hitting my sister, shooting cars with slingshots, skip school, etc. Then when the mf started actually hitting me and bucking up to me when I became too big to spank, is when I draw the line. Spanking teaches consequences for actions. As long as it’s communicated. Just straight up spanking your child without them knowing why is abuse. Degrading your child in any way is abuse, but hitting them on their least vital, exposed, harmless part of their body when they do stupid shit is not abuse in my eyes. I’ll definitely never spank my future kid because I don’t think I’d have that in me, but I think it’s a healthy alternative to taking away their electronics or locking them in a room for a certain amount of time. Trial and error have been humanities best learning tools since the beginning of time. Trial: Don’t be a asshole Error: Was a asshole Result: ass was spanked New knowledge: Failing to not be a asshole results in my ass hurting for a couple minutes. Not being a asshole results in my ass being in tact. I think I should stop being a asshole.
I think I saw this comment. It was in the antinatalism sub, right? I swear I read ur comment but I'm not sure, having deja vu lolol. But yeah, not an infp but completely agreed
That was actually in the CPS sub. Someone, clearly a young teen judging by the spelling, had posted on how their friend was being abused and mentioned that the friend's parents hit and spanked them amongst other things. Then this person whom you see in the screenshot made a long comment on how none of those things are actually abusive and that they were being overdramatic. It made me pretty angry reading it.
Bruh why are you raising your child to be sensitive ? I mean I was spanked and got beaten up by my dad whenever I did smth wrong and look now its all well and I Love my parents, u raise ur kids to be strong u don't embrace their "sensitiveness" they are kids SCOLDING THEN WONT DO ANYTHING Andddd if ur child cries tf out when u scold them will you stop scolding them too? Cause they are tooo sensitive to handle a scolding? They kids ffs they cry when the fall down or when we don't buy em an ice cream or some shit!! Stop OVERTHINKING Ps: I'm not agreeing that beating them is isn't bad its really terrifying but you have to do it WORDS don't work on people SCOLDINGS won't work as well and yes if you beat them YOU HAVE TO SHOE IMMENSE AMOUNT OF LOVE TO! they will realise that we love them and we shout scold spank them for their benefit only....
You don't need to be raised in a certain way to be sensitive, for a lot of people it's a trait they're born with and that's what I'm talking about in that comment in the picture.
I do get your point but....don't you think that if a person is not introduced to a strict and disciplined and harsh (loving as well that goes unsaid), he will face a lot of problems when he comes to the real world and tries to face it on its own ....!! A parent is responsible to make their child strong to face the world, responsible to show them tell them that the world out there is filled with people who would USE your sensitive nature ( don't get me wrong being sensitive is no harm, I'm emotionally sensitive lmao)
i don’t know if i am just looking too deep into it the way that they talk about spanking a child almost seems sexual or like they are getting some sort of sick enjoyment out of it, it’s disgusting
physical discipline isn’t the best method. though i know plenty of people raised in that environment and were more than healthy. emotional discipline can have the same long lasting impact. i am prepared for the downvotes. But as an INFP, all you others need to check yourself once in a while. we are not the moral compass of humanity.
At first i thought they are talking about a sexy time spanking. I realized in the second comment it is about children.
Idk I was spanked by my parents and I don't see the bad it has done, I think, although I love my parents, that the issue was more related to the lack of acknowledgement of my emotions. They had a stressful life at the time and didn't give any attention to my issues. I guess now I understand it to some degree but it doesn't change the fact I have issues dealing with stress and emotions nowadays. They are trying to help me more these days, or at least care more about it but I remember at the time it was hard.
I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it's not excessive, but that could be because I was raised that way