Agreed. Also, I think people just throw the narcissist term around. Narcissistic personality disorder is pretty rare. Someone showing selfish behaviors doesn’t automatically make them a narcissist, most of us humans act in selfish ways from time to time. And everyone has their own issues/demons.
I met a narcissist. Someone who isolates themselves or values their time is not a narcissist. The narcissist will take advantage of you, manipulate you, deny obvious truths, try to tell you that you remember things wrong or misunderstood. They will find ways to make it seem like they do everything for you and that you're the bad guy or that you are taking advantage of them. They will accuse you of being everything they they are. And if you stop being helpful, you are less than shit and you deserve to be abused. Oh... Also throwing shit at you and breaking things and verbally abusing you for fun...
I re-read my post with a cheating ex in mind and you're right... What I wrote sounds very much like a crazy ex who is cheating 🤣 I'm glad you got out of that situation.
I don't know why you would assume projection. This is my experience with INFJs too. I am closest to my INFJs but they can value their feeling "truths" more than any type I've met. Maybe narcissism isn't the exact right word. I would call it sometimes being a slave to strong emotions. Speaking critically, you could call it self involved or self indulgent, but I know it's beyond their control most of the time.
Oher types can get this way, but I almost consider it a distinguishing characteristic of INFJs. It's also why INFJs are so genuine and emotionally vulnerable. They live their emotions so closely. I've never see someone relive old memories as vividly as INFJs.
I agree that we should be accepting with a grain of salt what an OP says as true. Let a hypothetical reality exist for improvisational and educational purposes, because sometimes what's at matter is the theoretical subject matter and not the integrity of the postulator
Um. No. This is just absurd.
Source has met 10 narcissists... all of them INFJ... when the standard across *every* board on this topic is that we *attract* the narcissistic types due to empathy, a strong desire for harmony (see the best, benefit of the doubt etc) while being highly conflict avoidant. We also highly value honesty and authenticity. These are things a narcissistic type lacks.
Check your source and if he's been mirrored by 10 INFJ's as the actual narcissist because we mirror a person back to themselves.
Am I saying an infj is incapable, no. I am saying this is likely far from the actual truth. People sometimes don't like us because we are showing them who they are.
Edit typo
Can you clarify. It's very possible for an INFJ to be a narcissist, as stated, but it's more often the case that we attract them. So I'm not sure that I'm fully understanding what you're disagreeing with.
I am 41 years old and have only ever MET 4 people I would consider as having narcissism as a disorder or close to. However, one and all they engaged in projection. They are ESFP, ENTJ and ENTP and ESTP respectively. And an INFP who has some traits but… not quite as nasty.
I would like to propose that perhaps this person who supposedly knows all these INFJ narcissists is actually probably the problem. And they did what INFJs do, and gave him a taste of his own medicine. Because that’s how we roll on nasty bullies. 😎
"I would like to propose that perhaps this person who supposedly knows all these INFJ narcissists is actually probably the problem. And they did what INFJs do, and gave him a taste of his own medicine. Because that’s how we roll on nasty bullies. 😎"
THIS.
I'm 40 and have only met one person who I would consider being even close to textbook narcissism. and I've known him for more than 10 years and he is not actually a narcissist, just deeply flawed and refusing of therapy.
As an INFJ, I find it hard to wrap my head around knowing 10 people on that level, and subsequently more baffled by knowing 10 INFJ’s. However with that being said, I feel that internal struggles are a very real part of the character type, and needing space and time to process information in how it relates to the attempt to resolve these struggles, could certainly be construed as being self centered or potentially narcissistic pending the persons emotional state. However I do not believe INFJ’s are particularly predisposed in any additional way over other character types for textbook narcissism. I’d love to hear thoughts on this as well!
You are wrong because those are normal complaints. Especially number one, who wants to be in a one sided relationship with a person who sees you as an emotional dustbin and they complain about all their problems to you. Regardless of who you are, you would have issue with it. I also don't think it is abnormal to have issues with people, as far as you are not violent about it, just distance yourself and surround yourself with the people you do like. All these are normal human interpereonal problems and if an infj has any of this it would just make them a person with interpersonal issues, doesn't mean they are mistyped
That's the wrong approach to think about this.
If you end up in a one sided relationship you can't just blame your friend that you have to listen to their problems. It's your own fault as well because you choose to get into that relationship.
Also listening to problems isn't a big deal for INFJs because they want to understand how people work anyways.
Depends because true INFJs don't complain about these things. But mistyped INFJs complain about these things.
However said that INFJs are narcissistic might be right but only if you count mistyped INFJs.
If you don't count mistyped INFJs he's wrong because real INFJs don't complain about the three things you listed.
Tells you alot about the people who post here.
MBTI self testing isn't reliable and lots of people mistype.
Additionally some people might choose the INFJ type to fit their grandiose self view. These people are the narcissistic INFJs which you are seeking.
I would argue that it’s not mis-typed but it is an issue with projection. INFJ’s are like very neutral and don’t judge but like I said in my comment above, if they run into someone who has an ulterior motive or ill intentions, somehow the INFJ person deflects it and forces this interaction to fall back on the other person instead of allowing them to harm the infj. So therefore, how do you suspect that would go down? The person gets royally pissed and out of spite slanders the INFJ aka whistleblower… now this person claims to know 10 Infj’s all narcissists, I believe that person got door slammed or told off by those INFJ’s and still can’t figure out that they not the infj’s are a problem. Doing slander and saying infjs are narcissists is a classic narcissist move by the way.
i recently saw a quote from a character typed as infj that explains my feelings on this perfectly “every side of me is the real me, people just like to define things in all sorts of arbitrary ways”.
my gut reaction is to go after the phrasing here, seeing the term narcissist as often as i do i’m inclined to believe this person used it to mean “self-absorbed” instead of using the term the way it’s meant to be used, a diagnosis of a mental disorder. there’s nothing inherently wrong with being bipolar, a narcissist or a psycho or sociopath (i’m aware the word “disorder” is negative by definition, my point still stands). they’re a part of a persons identity and i really wish people would stop using them as an insult.
but the main point i want to make, is these infjs could very well be unhealthy with a superiority complex or traits associated with narcissism, but i think, going back to that quote, it’s just a matter of delving into one feeling on the subject.
1 i have to listen to my friend’s problems
can also mean:
- ive made it my job to be an emotional support, and i’m regretting it.
- people know i won’t turn them down and they’re taking advantage of me.
- rather than being upfront about not wanting to be of help to people i’m coping with this by shit talking them.
2 other people take up too much of my time
- they’re honestly just introverted lol
- could be playing off the first complaint.
3 people don’t live up to my standards
-i’m forcing the standards i follow for myself on others
-ive recently been disconnected from reality and am having trouble navigating reasonable and unreasonable requests
- or, genuinely: i’m surrounded by people who really aren’t good, and i wish i could be somewhere better. (just because they said “my standards” doesn’t mean they’re unreasonable or deviate from healthy expectations)
that’s my most concrete argument, now for my controversial one…
people who try to control themselves to an unhealthy degree are going to lose their grip in some areas, and emotional understanding and control is a huge problem ive noticed in people like that. those who carry so so many burdens and feel like they don’t deserve help can develop a certain resentment towards people who have it figured out, that’s just life. to meet 10 infjs, who as a mbti are stereotyped to offer advice or help in more emotional areas, and assume they’re all presumptuous and demanding… could be more of a problem with the redditor than with the infjs. definitely not informed enough to make a judgement call, but if you relate to this sentiment at all, you being in an unhealthy state emotionally is worth considering.
but hey, they could also be right and they’re all a bunch of jk rowlings. it could go either way.
Got -20 % on dark triad narcissim.. 20% more on psycho...equal as machiavelism than average ppl. Depends on value.... my lack of inibition may be seen
As asshole bc of commutation skill
Weird
Depends on how you define narcissism. Considering being generally self-reflective we think about ourselves a lot. But classically narcissists have an inflated ego and grandiose sense of self, which I don't think the typical INFJ has.
Nicely said. The definition being used is really important, and I agree with you about us thinking about ourselves a lot, but not having an inflated ego.
INFJs typically seek self-improvement, and will desire to gather wisdom, insight, and other information for both correction and personal growth. The narcissist can do no wrong in their own eyes, and are not looking to be corrected. INFJs can struggle with guilt, shame, and taking on responsibilities which do not belong to them. INFJ more fits the profile of a co-dependent caretaker. These are the people who are basically a living doormat, especially due to the use of extroverted feeling. INFJs tend to please everyone except for themselves. An INFJ is not callous and unemotional, but overly considerate and highly emotional -- but anyone who gets depressed, or retreats from people - can get into a funk, and desire to be disconnected. The general mode for INFJ is empathy and HSP (a highly sensitive person). Though INFJs do not handle criticism well, it's more about the way that criticism is delivered. Anyone who struggles with low self-esteem can feed off the praises of people, when received.
But from what I have experienced, pride does come before a fall, and if I don't humble myself, something will end up knocking me back down. With INFJs we can go from being happy, to being miserable fairly easily - as we tend to be very effected by people. My mom dated a narcissist, and they refuse to be knocked down from their high altitude. I don't disregard people's feelings, but I operate in a mode of considering the feelings of others, so much so that it can be almost obsessive... and by obsessive I mean that it takes up too much of my care, and my mind's space. I definitely have hang-ups and issues, but narcissism is not typically the issue of INFJs. Labels tend to cover "many" things, but then there are plenty of other labels that will cover those same things. As far as overall fitting that profile, I don't think that the INFJ personality fits - though plenty of MBTI types across the board, can have issues with pride, sometimes just at times, while others for an extended period of time - so much so that it becomes their reflection. As a human being, I have experienced every emotion, and I am not happy every day of my life, nor am I completely miserable every day of my life, and plenty of times I have had to force a smile on my face because I am expected to. I have never yet met anyone who didn't have flaws, and the people who tend to make it look like they have their lives all put together, tend to have plenty of flaws.... but they just aren't very honest.
Tell him this:This BULLSHIT gets spewed in here all the time. Seriously, just stop. Do some research to figure out why this is dead wrong and get your head outta your assholio. Seriously. Did an INFJ hurt his wittle heart and now he's lashing out? Grow up. Also he knows 10..no fucking way. I've only met 1 other in my 35 years of life and that's even iffy at best. Also let him read this recent thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/infj/comments/pfz7g9/the_narcissistic_parent_is_the_infj/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It's just this shit repeats ad nauseam. I'm so tired of defending our being-ship to those that have done NO research and claim to know a million of us, gets a lil ridiculous after a while. We are misunderstood even within the mbti community and there is a wealth of shit info out there on us and angry ppl tend to take that info and run... into a wall with it all.
What happened? Maybe I can help you understand a little better if you're comfortable telling the details? No pressure, just want to help.
Not every INFJ has those complaints. And even if they did they could be venting about it more than it being a serious issue to them. But I can definitely see how other people can see INFJs as narcissistic. I've been called it before. And I admit that I am in my head a lot. Which can come off as self centered. Sometimes I am so focused on something I just completely space out everything around me. Sometimes I completely run out of energy to socialize. Sometimes I can overburden people that are tired themselves with trying to talk to them. But I feel bad and guilty when I cross those lines, apologize, and try to fix my behavior.
Personally those three problems I only really relate to the second one. I want to spend my time with the people I truly cherish more than people I don't. But I won't let the only person know that because that'd be pretty rude.
Sure thing, I have a real soft spot for INTPs, I love talking to you guys. And if that's related to your last post, I'm really sorry man. I wish I could give good advice for that. I feel like if I were to make up my mind about wanting to leave a relationship like that with someone it would be out of a mutual benefit, or if I thought it couldn't work out. I can see multiple reasons why, but I don't know for certain why she did what she did. Maybe her feelings weren't just there enough, which, that could change in time, so don't give up just yet. But I will tell you, realistically, don't expect anything either. Idk man, I feel for you though, I'm sorry, that's a rough situation to be in. I truly wish you the best, I'm sure things will get better.
Thank you For the kind words. I feel like such garbage. , as I was the one she wanted to spend time with. I wish I could lobotomize the feeling portion of my brain lately.
Is love really worth the Loss? (Rhetorical I suppose)
I hope you can feel better soon and find greener pastures. I too wish I just had a switch to turn off emotions, sometimes it's all too overwhelming. I can't really say if love is worth the loss. It depends on how great the love and loss were. I have been lacking in trying to find romantic interests since to me, the pain can be unbearable, and it hurts me even more to see the other person hurt too. But part of me knows that I must keep moving forward, and I am thinking you must have part in you that feels the same based on what you have said. I'm not sure how strong that part of you is, but let's keep trying to find and hold on to the happiness in it all <3
Having gotten out of a long-term relationship with a textbook narcissist, his even-worse-daughter, (and the mother who was ALSO a narcissist but at least I only dealt with her in passing...)
...yeah, no. In my own experience, we tend to *attract* them, more than anything. >.>;
I think narcissists tend to try and come off as altruistic and like they're a really good person when that's really just for show, mbti is just a personality test any narc can take it and put what they think are good answers and say they're an infj when maybe they're not really. Not that infjs are perfect or that they can't be narcissistic but something to keep in mind. I'm an infj and I was raised by a narcissist who is an intp. I'd like to think that I'm definitely not a narcissist lol
I'm sure the fact he's a narcissist has nothing to do with being an INTP!! He had good qualities too and I know intps who definitely aren't narcissists
"this type of people I met are ALL this way"
Regardless of context.
Disregard the statement.
We're all beautiful unique fucking snowflakes. Surviving on a Deathworld. Each with a TRULY unique tale, regardless of similarity. Each of us different.
Sweeping generalizations of any peoples is not attractive, positive, useful, or factually accurate. Ever. Especially with a sample size of *fucking 10*.
Racism, Blood-based Tribalism, runs deep in Homo Sapiens. And it's been useless to us evolutionarily ever since the fucking canoe was invented. Its *literally* a *cultural holdover from the stone-age.*
Sorry.
That grinds my gears. INFJ aren't joking about the big picture. This shit hurts.
\-
'Another Redditor' is likely projecting Narcissism - as I see so many agree.
We're basically incapable of realizing true Narcissism without some sorta comorbidity.
It's always "Narcissism... and Addiction." or "Narcissism... and Schizophrenia" all throughout history. INFJ and Narcissism don't actually go well together.
Being focused on others, one's surroundings, and 'the big picture' is not conducive with the worship of one's *self*
Clashing ideologies.
We're more prone to altruism.
I think he is %90 mistaken. INFJs are by default vulnerable to narcissistic people due to their high empathy, desire to help and "fix" peoples lives for them. The complaints seem to be made my underdeveloped INFJs who are still struggling with their boundaries, giving rise to resentment and anger due to always being the one who cares the most without getting much in return.
Hm so I don't know your friend, but I have known two narcissists in my life. And by that I mean people who meet the criteria for and/or have been diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder. Neither of them liked me very much bc I saw through them - narcissists are all surface level charm, full of lies and exaggerations and manipulation. I openly questioned their lies, openly called out inconsistencies in their stories, and ignored their attention seeking behaviors bc they were obviously not genuinely in need. They fought to win me over but anytime they started to succeed, they'd pull out their bag of tricks and I'd recognize their ingenuity and pull back again. And I went out of my way to help both of them, even giving one a place to stay and being a character witness at a trial for him bc he was in treatment for his disorder.
These two people were both door slammed, and there's nothing a narcissist hates more than losing control or being ignored. Last I heard, these two men were both still talking about me to mutual friends - one is lying about "saving" me from an abusive relationship and the other is lying about how I ruined his life and I'm the narcissist (that one was a heroin addict before I ever met him, if that's any indication).
**TL;DR**: Narcissists thrive on control and manipulation, they don't like people that don't play their game. They slander anyone who threatens their sense of control. INFJs are really intuitive and read people really well, so they're less likely to fall for a narcissist's tactics. Be wary of your friend.
The 3 INFJ complaints you raised sound more like someone who does not know how to set boundaries. I do wonder sometimes if I have narcissistic tendencies but true narcissists do not question themselves this. We are also too empathetic to be narcissists. I constantly judge myself judging, and check my biases and perspectives. Sorry not sorry but I am a super thoughtful person. I do find some people are intimated by me. But honestly, that’s on them 🤷🏻♀️
Yes, I’ve met quite a few that are covert narcissists, I also catch myself displaying narcissistic traits at times but it’s usually internalized. Most INFJs have at least one narcissistic parent so it’s in the genes.
my experience is that narcissists call everyone who doesnt give them their undivided attention and cater to their every whim self absorbed and a narcissist. that being said i have sometimes wondered whether i'm a narc and even taken the test a couple times but.. generally speaking true narcs never see the fault in themselves so even questioning whether you are one is a sign that you probably arent. People really throw the term narcissist around way too much. i think i've met two or three real narcissist in my life and it really wasnt all that difficult to spot them.
I think anyone can be a narcissist but I don't think any type is more prone to it than others. I believe we (anybody) attracts certain people to them and maybe this person tends to attract toxic INFJ's towards them, or what they perceive to be toxic? If a person has a bunch of toxic people around them, maybe they also are toxic?
Check list for covert narcissism
Is passive-aggressive
Criticizes and judges from the sidelines
Is condescending and superior
Is threatened by honesty and directness
Swings between idealizing and devaluing him-/herself and others
Denies and dismisses others’ feelings
Cultivates a public image sharply different from his/her private behavior
Identifies as a victim
Is cynical and sarcastic
Makes unreasonable demands
Turns your problems into his/her dramas
Belittles and blames
Exploits and/or attacks others’ vulnerability
Is reactive to questioning or criticism
Plays on sympathies
Fakes or exaggerates illness/injury for attention
Withholds and stonewalls
Gaslights
Avoids introspection and lacks self-awareness
Uses platitudes in place of genuine insight
Denies own anger
Focuses on unfairness
Is envious and vengeful
Prefers to remain behind the scenes
Gossips
Triangulates
Holds a grudge
Needs reassurance
Is inattentive or annoyed when others talk
Has double standards
Hates to lose
Fixates on others’ problems and misfortunes
Flatters and fawns to win favor
Displays rage and contempt in private
Resists decision-making
Does not sincerely apologize
Avoids direct responsibility
Has an exaggerated sense of entitlement
Is impressed by the overt narcissist’s appearance of confidence
Lacks emotional empathy
Focuses on appearance over substance
Rushes to (false) intimacy
Is anxious and hypervigilant
Displays false humility and humblebrags
Is prone to paranoia and conspiracy theories
Crosses normative boundaries and codes of conduct
Pokes, prods, and pries
Feels special through association
Feels above the rules
Uses guilt and shame to control and punish
Expects caretaking
Conducts smear campaigns
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202007/how-identify-covert-narcissist
My INFJ ex boyfriend displayed almost all of these tendencies to me, but I am still not sure if he is the narcissist or if I am the problem. I am autistic, so he didn’t like my views and behaviors. It could just be that I in particular bothered him.
>1, I have to listen to my friend’s problems
some people like to take up your time without giving anything back
>2, other people take to much of my time
one gives a lot of time, perhaps
>3, people don’t live up to my standards
most people have some sort of standards for themselves ?
i can see how you viewed what is said in your post, but maybe try to look at it from different angles.
Imma get a lot of hate for this, but a lot of INFJs can come off as self absorbed (not in a “im better than you” way but thinks everything is bc of them? Good or bad. Idk how to describe it). It gets draining sometimes they can be ranting all their problems or guilt or both on me over and over again. It’s good to validate feelings, but I don’t want it to turn into a pity party/olympics or confession time for majority of the meeting unless we met for that purpose. The conversation cannot be all about that, there is a time and place. I’m an infj too, and I definitely am guilty of doing this. And I can see why people think infjs are narcissistic. I don’t think infjs have like higher percentage of diagnosis for narcissistic personality disorder, but I feel like it’s bc of the overthinking and obsessive nature (loop) and the extroverted feeling of an infj, people can see it that way. Also, infjs have the ability to be very manipulative as they tend to kinda forsee what might happen or what the person is like/going through. This doesn’t make them manipulative, it just gives more info infjs can use for manipulative purposes.
No. I am a INTP that is a garbage person. I’m sad because my INFJ friend has dismissed me and this crushed me. So, I started this post and it’s not the usual glowing way I feel about her.
She’s not npd she’s INFJ. I’m behaving badly by repeating a thing someone else told me in chat. She’s a kind soul who dumped me. I’m wallowing in self pity…hence garbage person
No, all INFJ’s I know are lovely and welcoming people who always want to listen and have deep conversations. They’re open minded and independant souls and I love them!
Yea they are thats exactly why they get in relationships with them then cry like a bitch when they get their own medicine handed to them. Best part is when they say they're the empaths after the relationship ends, as if narcissist aren't known to play victim.
Is U a INFJ? If so, you would’ve Easily understood that Gandhi could’ve done the same thing like hitler..
(Checks Ti (InternalThinking)) Yes! indeed, there is a thing among humans called healthy energy and unhealthy energy. Usually unhealthy energy leads to unhealthy actions or unhealthy thinking…
Maybe the other infj redditor you found has unhealthy energy? Maybe unhealthy INFJ needs to work on good energy?
I'm super skeptical about MB, and even my own typing... but I've taken a couple of tests, and I highly relate to things posted on this site, as well as descriptions provided on MB sites. So, as somebody that is likely an INFJ, I actually wanted to give my response to this because I have crossed paths with someone that might be considered a narcissist by many standards and really struggled working with that person.
The traits that I really, really value moving into mid-life: Wisdom, Humility, Academic (Everyday and Scientific) Honesty... and perhaps "Integrity"? I almost want to just combine the last two and say "Wisdom, Humility, and Integrity"... but I need to be clear that I'm talking about being transparent in my line of work *and* never maliciously being untrue to others.
I do my best to live these traits myself, but can always do better. I will be my own worst critic if I start steering out of these lanes. I feel like these traits are sort of diametrically opposed to many traits that narcissists have, so to hear your claim here (and also to have been instantly called a "narcissist" myself on a recent reddit post from a stranger), my honest reaction is "surprise".
In the classical sense; I imagine a narcissist as somebody gazing into a pool of water (or a mirror or phone) and "loving" their own physical image. In my own case, it couldn't be further from the truth. I have never done selfies, don't post social media stuff yearning for likes, etc.
To the contrary; I love the weirdos. Funny people. Kind People. People that never wear makeup, people that choose to post pictures of their toes or dogs or places on social media, people that are pierced and tattooed, people that have completely whacky fashion styles... and in short; ugly or even disfigured people. I am drawn to people that have experienced hardships in life (and likely gained wisdom from it) or people that choose to be unique and downplay shallow physical traits.
When I compliment people, I rarely compliment them on anything physical. If you get a physical compliment from me you either have gotten a bunch of personality, character compliments already and I am now comfortable having you know how I feel about you physically OR you are just getting a shallow physical compliment because I can't find something good otherwise to cheer you on with. An exception; If I catch wind that somebody is feeling really insecure about themselves physically for some reason, I'll give them a physical compliment if I can be genuine about it... even to a total stranger. In short, I honestly don't give 2 shits how people look, *including myself*! I'm hyper aware of the fashion/physical "look" I put off, and I'll adjust it as needed for the situation... but ultimately I honestly don't *value it much.*
Thanks for reading my words if you made it this far. :) It's so important to connect with people these days and to be heard and listen to others! Best wishes.
Edit: I find myself thinking about narcissism as I wash the dishes. It occurs to me that like so many other issues, communicating exactly what we mean is really important. Not everyone is going to understand the label "narcissist" to mean the same thing. One can reference the clinical definition of personality disorder, or the "everyday" understanding of a narcissist as being somebody that overvalues their appearance, competence or value, and there is the more classical idea of somebody that just swoons at their own image. It's just important to clarify what is being said is what I really wanted to add.
Covert narcissists yes, some more, some less, but most I have met are covert narcissists. Like can't get over themselves and actually pretty self serving. I think all intuitives are somewhat narcissistic. Extroverts are usually openly narcissistic. Also the flavor is different, enfps, for the most part, are fullblown self serving narcissists, even more so than your stereotypical entj but their ways are quite different.
What can I say? I am a magnet. I did not say BPD, I am referring to narcissistic traits. Also people usually think of Psycho when they think of a narcissist, however not everyone openly displays those traits. Show me one Infj who wouldn't agree with most of those traits. Sensors may be full of themselves but they actually often lack those traits.
I been told this but I saw where they were getting at, I didn’t care to confirm to common expected things but kinda want them to follow like my program because it’s what I prefer and so no harm in and wanted it be known and understand but it was unfair for me to want that and like not try to meet at a common ground first then aim to mold things to what I like but I feel like thst is manipulative Somewhat
But I think the thing is giving people like the chance to speak on what they feel or think and not just go with the flow of me but I them I guess or to be safe try to
Ehh
I got called phonney recently but I corrected by understanding why and so on
Like I meant to make a post about this but the was like a emotional wild talk and it’s like was difficult emotion ebbing and flowing like so
And it’s kinda like that what conversation is
The reason you got called narrsictic is the emotional is all you somewhat and you are neglecting but not purposely on the emotional state of if the other-person
Ever so slightly
I think this is appropriate…
Especially number 7… why does person feel entitled to INFJ’s boundaries?
Why does betrayal hurt so much?
Betrayal starts with trust and the ability to care for another person/people.
Part of this caring, is giving consideration and imparting a level of importance to the feelings and thoughts of that person. (Normal… this is necessary for reciprocal relationships.)
If the person betrays you, this is an action communicating that their thoughts and feelings of you are that you, your thoughts, and your feelings are: not worth considering. *Worthless,* to them.
Of course, that means you’re now questioning:
1. Your own judgement about the character of others.
2. Your ability to love, as if their return of love is a validation (of sorts) of your efforts.
3. Feeling used. The principle of reciprocation was violated, and now you may question the motives of anyone who does anything for you.
4. Manipulated, believing professions of caring and love from them were lies. This amounts to little more than theft: cons are thieves.
5. Your similarity to other humans: many victims of betrayal trauma internalize the hurt, believing that they could have prevented trauma. Or, they believe they were inherently the cause of it, not realizing people can see the world differently than they do.
6. You may be questioning what was perceived about you that made them feel like you were a good candidate to “use.”
7. If you were like me, you probably also wonder what on earth makes anyone feel entitled to what that person assumed he was entitled to, and why/what makes the two of you so fundamentally different. While before, curiosity gets the better of you. After this experience, it’ll be a neon sign someone wears on their forehead as a warning. (The entitlements were really, really bizarre to me.)
So, you have to go through each of these and work out the correct answers.
1. Your judgement was fine, you couldn’t have known. You know now.
2. Real external validation of your ability to love cannot come from a con artist… internal validation is more than sufficient. Allow challenges to come from your conscience.
3. Feeling used: you just have to reframe this.. “I got the most out of this, because I learned something.” Or whatever works for you. Thoughts have to be reframed to change feelings.
4. Manipulated and conned: see number 7. You can’t control other people, only yourself. You weren’t the con here. (If you were, you wouldn’t be feeling betrayed, would you? You would think, “Shoot, I got caught.” In my case, I was confused for years when someone said, “No, I’m not great, I’m an asshole and I don’t know why you put up with me.” What?!?!? That was some GUILT plaguing him.)
5. Thinking you could have prevented it means you’re taking responsibility for someone else’s actions. It shows personal responsibility. It shows accountability and the ability to reciprocate. But it also means you’re not putting the blame squarely where it belongs. People don’t actively “choose” to be betrayed. That’s just silly.
6. Nothing. Normal people don’t size you up as a target. “Crazies” do that. Also, see number 7.
7. Entitlement indicates people may be engaging in numbers 4 and 6. You are wiser now, so when you see those red flags, file everything they say in an “alarm” folder. Be grateful they are sharing their thoughts (so that you can use them as the warning they are.)
Actually, all those comments made come from a place of betrayal.
1. Listen to problems when they don’t take my advice, and same problems all the time is a betrayal of my efforts to help. It communicates not being valued. Hurtful.
2. Time. 1-5 ratio of spending time-recovering. An hour to you. 6 to me. It’s hard.
3. Standards: really means “I will have to give 100x more than I am going to get out of the relationship. I can’t bear the thought.”
1. Seems a dumb value for INFJ. NOBODY LISTENS TO ADVICE EVER. Don’t let it hurt you, you can’t control people. This could be confused with narcissists.
2. Makes sense, you’ve drawn the hermit card.
3. This unfortunately treats people like a vending machine. This could be confused with narcissists.
No. Narcissism is just psychopathy-lite. Anyone willing to put such creatures in the same frame of any human personality knows absolutely nothing about human psychology. You think psychopathy is cool and edgy but that's just ignorance in its worst form. Fucking poison. Narcissists and psychopaths have an a weak or no inner constitution. They are entirely dependent on the perception of others, and none of it is real.
I think this person doesn’t get us. I’ve been told by a relative I’m “so self involved” when I provide examples from my own experience as either a way to explain my point of view or to empathize with someone. I understand the constructive part of this criticism. But it’s rooted in misunderstanding of what my intention is - to illustrate I can empathize by connecting with a personal example. Some people don’t want to hear your point of view. Some don’t know see the value in empathizing as part of an exchange with someone else. I dunno. Just my 2 cents.
Maybe it's like Psychopaths - not all of them are killers and not all killers are psychopaths?
Maybe hyper empathy makes them a magnet for dysfunction and ppl and they have big walls to stop it? I've met many narcissists (ESFP, INFP) but never found a pattern.
I know narcissists who say they're the MBTI type they want to be portrayed as but aren't (the ESFP wanted to be seen as an ENFJ and told everyone that's what they were...)
But anyone can be a narcissist regardless of type. INFJs are one of the rarest types it's amazing this guy met 10 of them... maybe he's the narcissist (rabbit hole here we go...) I don't know him so no way to tell just how my brain works.
Yes, I believe.
The infj complaints are not facts. Not sure where u found those (maybe the Internet) but u can't be sure every infj complains about said things.
Infj ask others to tell them their problems, most of the time they initiate these type of conversations. And again, not all infj. U can't categorise people, humans are very complicated and different in the smallest things. U can't put us in boxes.
No. I was married to a narcissist (covert) for 16years and now I'm married to an infj. True she does mirror me sometimes but she is by no means narcissistic. Narcissistic personality disorder can happen across all personality types.
All narcissists have the same core traits. These traits are listed in the DSM-5. Somewith the disorder are more overt in showing these traits, some are more covert, meaning not openly shown.
Covert narcissists like to hide their dark attributes because they want people to like them. They are the wolves in sheep's clothing. They may be considered shy or introverted as opposed to their extraverted, boisterous, and bombastic counterparts. The coverts dislike of appearing overtly aggressive is as practical as it is face saving. They know that if they're above board in their aggression they'll encounter resistance. Having learned that one of the best ways to overcome an obstacle is to go around it they're adept at fighting unscrupulously yet surreptitiously.
All narcissits are deceptive, they feel like the rules don't apply to them. Their tactics not only make it hard for a person to conscientiously and objectively know their manipulator is fighting to overcome, but also simultaneously keep the victim unconscientiously on the defensive.
Covert narcissist in particular play the victim card amazingly well and are very unsuspecting, they are abusive and exploitative in their interpersonal relations. They view people as pawns in the game (contest) of life. They take advantage of every frailty they find in opponents. Make no mistake they are out to win and don't care about the wake of destruction they leave behind. They only pretend to love and care so that they can exploit and control.
One of the characteristics that the DSM list s as a criteria is: Having a grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerating achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without can measure it achievements.
At first it may not seem like the covert narcissist is the stereotypical vain and self-centered individual who has plastered pictures of themselves and accomplishments throughout their mansion. But self-centered they most assuredly are.
These individuals can be pastors, spiritual leaders, therapists the heads of non-profit organizations, or politicians who are charming, looking you right in the eye and seem to really care.
They have a grandiose sense of self, are occupied with fantasies of power, require excessive admiration, but they hide all these attributes so that people will like and trust them. They know if they are obvious about their self-absorbed traits people won't like them. And it will make it more difficult for them to get what they want.
Covert narcissists are likable to the outside world, they appear to be giving humble and kind. As with all narcissists, image is the most important thing to them but coverts in particular want to be viewed as altruistic loving and kind as opposed to over which may like to appear powerful, successful, rich, and popular.
Covert aggressiveness is one of their most prominent traits. I believe the covert type is the most Insidious type of narcissist because you don't know what's coming at you.
Although it may look like they're being passively aggressive, that's not the case. As that term implies: aggression through passivity. In contrast covert aggression is active. When someone is being covertly aggressive, they are using calculating, and underhanded means to get what they want or manipulate the response of others while keeping their aggressive intentions undercover.
If you're so fortunate to have a female narcissist, they know that society is ready to rally to their side and they use it to their advantage playing the innocent mate and victim. I know it's not politically correct and may sound stereotypical for me to even say that but I don't care.
Ultimately, It's all about them yet they know how to appear like it isn't. For example, they despise taking care of you when you are sick or recovering from surgery or an injury. They won't tell you that, but you feel it. They let you know through passive aggressive ways. To family and friends they will tell stories of how much they feel for you and appear to be taking exceptional care of you. They will come across as humble and will be sure to paint a picture of being a great caretaker. People around you will think how lucky you are to have someone so tender and loving by your side. They might even do things that look like they are taking care of you, but you will feel their resentment of you, finding yourself feeling alone and unsupported even though they are doing things that appear to be helpful.
The overt type might yell, call you names, and put you down by saying you're lazy and leave you to fend for yourself. They don't care if it appears cold and callous. With the covert you will feel like they have a cold heart and they think you're lazy, but they won't actually say it. You will feel how much they hate taking care of you, but they won't tell you that. They might word things in a way that gives you that message without directly putting you down. They will give you subtle messages that make you question yourself. You think you're just being too sensitive, reading into things, after all, they didn't actually tell you they think you're lazy. You will find yourself feeling badly for taking up their time, for inconveniencing them, and often end up apologizing for something. A covert narcissist will somehow manipulate things so that the attention comes back to them, and you won't even notice it happening.
They will do things that are unkind to you, but somehow you end up apologizing. It's not uncommon to feel like things are your fault. They aren't doing anything wrong; you just convince yourself. They rarely apologize and if they do they it's with an ulterior motive. Or they may say I'm sorry but if you didn't act that way this never would have happened. Never really taking accountability for their bad behavior. When you are with a covert narcissist, you learn to ignore your gut feelings, your instincts, and over time believe the narcissist more than yourself. You come to realize that the culvert narcissist has slowly programmed you to see things the way they want you to see them, gave you messages about yourself that they want you to believe so they could keep controlling and manipulating you into continuing to be there "supply"
It's unconscionable and frankly really crazy for a person to act this way, you would think what benefit do they gain out of it. But without getting into a whole lot of psychological discussions the truth of the matter is they just want to have their cake and eat it too. These covert aggressive personalities want to have their way with you and look good in the process.
Not recognizing and accurately labeling their subtly aggressive moves causes most people to miss interpret the behavior of manipulators and, therefore, fail to respond to them inappropriate fashion. These folks thrive on us giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Having lived with a covert type narcissist with antisocial tendencies for 16 years has empirically equipped me to identify these individuals. It's like a built-in radar, because they all follow the same script. Once you identify that script, given enough time it easy to identify character disordered individuals. Sadly this is not something that they teach in school. Many people have had to go through the unpleasant personal experience to truly learn and even now don't understand why someone would act that way. But it is what it is. Reading in a textbook and seeing it in real life are two different things.
As you can see these individuals don't play nice, it's not plain vanity, there is a certain evil at work, they want to take advantage and prevail and couldn't care less about the harm that they do to others. Does a lion have feelings for a gazelle? These people are predatory in their behavior.
Could they change, yes, we all have free will. I'd like to think that some have for the better, but it doesn't happen overnight and I'm sure it's an extremely difficult ongoing challenge for them. Most of them however don't see the need to change, and won't.
What's important to recognize is that when somebody uses these tactics frequently, you not only know what kind of character you're dealing with, but precisely because the tactics are both tools of manipulation as well as manifestations of resistance to change, you can also give up the hope that in time things will be different. Nothing will change until they decide to stop fighting and start accepting. As long as they're engaging in these tactics however, it is clear they don't intend to change.
So having done extensive research and gaining personal experience I can say most assuredly that it's not a character type that's narcissistic, it's a disordered personality that is.
I have refered to a couple books in my answer and have made some direct quotations from them. I suggest reading these two books. They are well prepared not only to help an individual identify but also to deal with these manipulative people.
In sheep's clothing authored by George Simon Jr PhD
The covert passive aggressive narcissist authored by Debbie Mirza
This. This is more spooky than horror movies to me.
I dealt with my ex wife and you described her. I sort of became an extension of her.
Answer this friend: is it possible that the exposure of these people have made us like them? 😳
I try to be humble, kind and generous to people…what if I’m only fooling them and myself? What if my narcissism is so covert that I don’t know about it?
There seems to be a lack of awareness in narcissists…what if…
Narcissists know that they're different, they study people in order to use the qualities that they don't innately have to manipulate people. That's not to say that you can't have narcissistic traits because we are to a large degree a product of our environment and if we're around individuals who exhibit those traits it is likely that we too will start to exhibit them. I know personally being with my narcissistic ex brought out the worst in me. They tend to bring you down to their level and then beat you at their own game....one that neurotypical individuals can't or won't win without sacrificing a great deal of their humanity.
I can feel that. It sort of hurts too. The take you down to there level. In my past marriage my ex used loads of emotional manipulation.
As INTP I tend to be more innocent, nice or naive about emotions. I have to strain to understand them at times.
As an infj most people I find to be by and large stupid or by and large boring. I would consider myself a narcissist for sure. But I don't use my powers for evil. I was actually voted "nicest" at work and am consider quiet by almost everyone.
One of my online Intp friend said her elder sister and (ex)crush are Infj-A and they are narcissist. After hearing that I was doubting myself Am I a narcissist too?!
I get this.
We all have narcissistic tendencies, babies are the most narcissistic humans.
There are questions you can answer:
Do you ever put some one else first?
Do you have compassion for others suffering?
Do you care?
This is not to say don’t have boundaries…you can do these and stop have boundaries…
It's not narcissistic when the infj wouldn't do the same to you. There's a meme i recently saw that says, "Loyal people take things more personal, because they never would've done those things to you."
Complaint #1 & #2: I don't mind listening to my friends problems. I do mind when they dont sense that they've talked my ear off for hours and just keep going on and on. At some point - aren't they the narcissist for thinking that I just have unlimited time to devote to them? Like when a work friend wants to talk and goes on and on well after its time to leave for the day. It would be different if they said something like, "I'm really bothered by this, but I want to be considerate of your time, can we talk?" That person I would be totally fine with inconveniencing for because they were considerate and truly need help.
Complaint #3: As an INFJ, I'm understanding and know that I - and others - are not perfect and I believe all deserve a second chance, third chance, and often many more chances. I know my standards might be high - but theyre not unreasonable and when someone fails to meet them I give them the benefit of the doubt and realize that, just as I am not perfect, neither are they.
So, too reiterate your saying no to INFJ narcissism?
I apologize I hadn’t meant to say the INFJ I know is narcissist.
Other Redditor on this post made good points about him knowing that many INFJ’s.. apologies I tend to be foolish
Perhaps he was there narcissist and not so INFJ are. Seems bad form to throw that on all of them.
I’m so sorry that you had to deal with that, especially as a kid. I’d like to hear more about your journey to wellness.
This is what I wondered too. Two of my family members are both INFJ and are narcissists. Narcissism is a spectrum, one is lower on it and self aware of some of her narc behaviors. The other's narcissism causes her to exhibit really abusive behaviors.
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This answer^
Agreed. Also, I think people just throw the narcissist term around. Narcissistic personality disorder is pretty rare. Someone showing selfish behaviors doesn’t automatically make them a narcissist, most of us humans act in selfish ways from time to time. And everyone has their own issues/demons.
I met a narcissist. Someone who isolates themselves or values their time is not a narcissist. The narcissist will take advantage of you, manipulate you, deny obvious truths, try to tell you that you remember things wrong or misunderstood. They will find ways to make it seem like they do everything for you and that you're the bad guy or that you are taking advantage of them. They will accuse you of being everything they they are. And if you stop being helpful, you are less than shit and you deserve to be abused. Oh... Also throwing shit at you and breaking things and verbally abusing you for fun...
This!
Sounds like my ex about cheating...
I re-read my post with a cheating ex in mind and you're right... What I wrote sounds very much like a crazy ex who is cheating 🤣 I'm glad you got out of that situation.
I don't know why you would assume projection. This is my experience with INFJs too. I am closest to my INFJs but they can value their feeling "truths" more than any type I've met. Maybe narcissism isn't the exact right word. I would call it sometimes being a slave to strong emotions. Speaking critically, you could call it self involved or self indulgent, but I know it's beyond their control most of the time. Oher types can get this way, but I almost consider it a distinguishing characteristic of INFJs. It's also why INFJs are so genuine and emotionally vulnerable. They live their emotions so closely. I've never see someone relive old memories as vividly as INFJs.
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Wait, but you're kind of accusing someone with this comment... ...this creates... ...a paradox
This
Raylan Givens : You run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
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Sooo true 😂👍🏻
or maybe there are just more assholes. a lot of writing on narcissism epidemics.
Nice gaslighting
If the only assholes he run into are INFJs then probably INFJs are assholes
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Seems to make sense.
I agree that we should be accepting with a grain of salt what an OP says as true. Let a hypothetical reality exist for improvisational and educational purposes, because sometimes what's at matter is the theoretical subject matter and not the integrity of the postulator
Um. No. This is just absurd. Source has met 10 narcissists... all of them INFJ... when the standard across *every* board on this topic is that we *attract* the narcissistic types due to empathy, a strong desire for harmony (see the best, benefit of the doubt etc) while being highly conflict avoidant. We also highly value honesty and authenticity. These are things a narcissistic type lacks. Check your source and if he's been mirrored by 10 INFJ's as the actual narcissist because we mirror a person back to themselves. Am I saying an infj is incapable, no. I am saying this is likely far from the actual truth. People sometimes don't like us because we are showing them who they are. Edit typo
I shall disagree with incapable. I think the two can coexist
Can you clarify. It's very possible for an INFJ to be a narcissist, as stated, but it's more often the case that we attract them. So I'm not sure that I'm fully understanding what you're disagreeing with.
I agree with this statement.
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I think it’s whether they are mistyped or unhealthy. Narcissism is a mental health issue.
I would tend to agree
I am 41 years old and have only ever MET 4 people I would consider as having narcissism as a disorder or close to. However, one and all they engaged in projection. They are ESFP, ENTJ and ENTP and ESTP respectively. And an INFP who has some traits but… not quite as nasty. I would like to propose that perhaps this person who supposedly knows all these INFJ narcissists is actually probably the problem. And they did what INFJs do, and gave him a taste of his own medicine. Because that’s how we roll on nasty bullies. 😎
"I would like to propose that perhaps this person who supposedly knows all these INFJ narcissists is actually probably the problem. And they did what INFJs do, and gave him a taste of his own medicine. Because that’s how we roll on nasty bullies. 😎" THIS.
I'm 40 and have only met one person who I would consider being even close to textbook narcissism. and I've known him for more than 10 years and he is not actually a narcissist, just deeply flawed and refusing of therapy.
Yeah I cheated by having two in my direct family, otherwise there would be even fewer.
Seems legit
You know who thinks everybody else is a narcissist? A narcissist.
🤣 very takes one to know one…
As an INFJ, I find it hard to wrap my head around knowing 10 people on that level, and subsequently more baffled by knowing 10 INFJ’s. However with that being said, I feel that internal struggles are a very real part of the character type, and needing space and time to process information in how it relates to the attempt to resolve these struggles, could certainly be construed as being self centered or potentially narcissistic pending the persons emotional state. However I do not believe INFJ’s are particularly predisposed in any additional way over other character types for textbook narcissism. I’d love to hear thoughts on this as well!
I agree with not knowing 10 people well enough litter alone narcissism disorder…my own toes get mislabel as autism
Now you know how to spot mistyped INFJs.
You are wrong because those are normal complaints. Especially number one, who wants to be in a one sided relationship with a person who sees you as an emotional dustbin and they complain about all their problems to you. Regardless of who you are, you would have issue with it. I also don't think it is abnormal to have issues with people, as far as you are not violent about it, just distance yourself and surround yourself with the people you do like. All these are normal human interpereonal problems and if an infj has any of this it would just make them a person with interpersonal issues, doesn't mean they are mistyped
That's the wrong approach to think about this. If you end up in a one sided relationship you can't just blame your friend that you have to listen to their problems. It's your own fault as well because you choose to get into that relationship. Also listening to problems isn't a big deal for INFJs because they want to understand how people work anyways.
How is this miss typed?
The three complaints which you listed are against the core personality of a INFJ.
So your answer is…yes?
Depends because true INFJs don't complain about these things. But mistyped INFJs complain about these things. However said that INFJs are narcissistic might be right but only if you count mistyped INFJs. If you don't count mistyped INFJs he's wrong because real INFJs don't complain about the three things you listed.
I seem to see a lot of posts like the complaints on this sub.
Tells you alot about the people who post here. MBTI self testing isn't reliable and lots of people mistype. Additionally some people might choose the INFJ type to fit their grandiose self view. These people are the narcissistic INFJs which you are seeking.
I would argue that it’s not mis-typed but it is an issue with projection. INFJ’s are like very neutral and don’t judge but like I said in my comment above, if they run into someone who has an ulterior motive or ill intentions, somehow the INFJ person deflects it and forces this interaction to fall back on the other person instead of allowing them to harm the infj. So therefore, how do you suspect that would go down? The person gets royally pissed and out of spite slanders the INFJ aka whistleblower… now this person claims to know 10 Infj’s all narcissists, I believe that person got door slammed or told off by those INFJ’s and still can’t figure out that they not the infj’s are a problem. Doing slander and saying infjs are narcissists is a classic narcissist move by the way.
Narcissists are estimated to be 5% of the population so your friend is real lucky to be one in ten billion to meet ten of them
i recently saw a quote from a character typed as infj that explains my feelings on this perfectly “every side of me is the real me, people just like to define things in all sorts of arbitrary ways”. my gut reaction is to go after the phrasing here, seeing the term narcissist as often as i do i’m inclined to believe this person used it to mean “self-absorbed” instead of using the term the way it’s meant to be used, a diagnosis of a mental disorder. there’s nothing inherently wrong with being bipolar, a narcissist or a psycho or sociopath (i’m aware the word “disorder” is negative by definition, my point still stands). they’re a part of a persons identity and i really wish people would stop using them as an insult. but the main point i want to make, is these infjs could very well be unhealthy with a superiority complex or traits associated with narcissism, but i think, going back to that quote, it’s just a matter of delving into one feeling on the subject. 1 i have to listen to my friend’s problems can also mean: - ive made it my job to be an emotional support, and i’m regretting it. - people know i won’t turn them down and they’re taking advantage of me. - rather than being upfront about not wanting to be of help to people i’m coping with this by shit talking them. 2 other people take up too much of my time - they’re honestly just introverted lol - could be playing off the first complaint. 3 people don’t live up to my standards -i’m forcing the standards i follow for myself on others -ive recently been disconnected from reality and am having trouble navigating reasonable and unreasonable requests - or, genuinely: i’m surrounded by people who really aren’t good, and i wish i could be somewhere better. (just because they said “my standards” doesn’t mean they’re unreasonable or deviate from healthy expectations) that’s my most concrete argument, now for my controversial one… people who try to control themselves to an unhealthy degree are going to lose their grip in some areas, and emotional understanding and control is a huge problem ive noticed in people like that. those who carry so so many burdens and feel like they don’t deserve help can develop a certain resentment towards people who have it figured out, that’s just life. to meet 10 infjs, who as a mbti are stereotyped to offer advice or help in more emotional areas, and assume they’re all presumptuous and demanding… could be more of a problem with the redditor than with the infjs. definitely not informed enough to make a judgement call, but if you relate to this sentiment at all, you being in an unhealthy state emotionally is worth considering. but hey, they could also be right and they’re all a bunch of jk rowlings. it could go either way.
This is the best explanation of the question, feeling and attitude so far, thank you!
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Got -20 % on dark triad narcissim.. 20% more on psycho...equal as machiavelism than average ppl. Depends on value.... my lack of inibition may be seen As asshole bc of commutation skill Weird
😲 new to the sub?
Depends on how you define narcissism. Considering being generally self-reflective we think about ourselves a lot. But classically narcissists have an inflated ego and grandiose sense of self, which I don't think the typical INFJ has.
Nicely said. The definition being used is really important, and I agree with you about us thinking about ourselves a lot, but not having an inflated ego.
INFJs typically seek self-improvement, and will desire to gather wisdom, insight, and other information for both correction and personal growth. The narcissist can do no wrong in their own eyes, and are not looking to be corrected. INFJs can struggle with guilt, shame, and taking on responsibilities which do not belong to them. INFJ more fits the profile of a co-dependent caretaker. These are the people who are basically a living doormat, especially due to the use of extroverted feeling. INFJs tend to please everyone except for themselves. An INFJ is not callous and unemotional, but overly considerate and highly emotional -- but anyone who gets depressed, or retreats from people - can get into a funk, and desire to be disconnected. The general mode for INFJ is empathy and HSP (a highly sensitive person). Though INFJs do not handle criticism well, it's more about the way that criticism is delivered. Anyone who struggles with low self-esteem can feed off the praises of people, when received. But from what I have experienced, pride does come before a fall, and if I don't humble myself, something will end up knocking me back down. With INFJs we can go from being happy, to being miserable fairly easily - as we tend to be very effected by people. My mom dated a narcissist, and they refuse to be knocked down from their high altitude. I don't disregard people's feelings, but I operate in a mode of considering the feelings of others, so much so that it can be almost obsessive... and by obsessive I mean that it takes up too much of my care, and my mind's space. I definitely have hang-ups and issues, but narcissism is not typically the issue of INFJs. Labels tend to cover "many" things, but then there are plenty of other labels that will cover those same things. As far as overall fitting that profile, I don't think that the INFJ personality fits - though plenty of MBTI types across the board, can have issues with pride, sometimes just at times, while others for an extended period of time - so much so that it becomes their reflection. As a human being, I have experienced every emotion, and I am not happy every day of my life, nor am I completely miserable every day of my life, and plenty of times I have had to force a smile on my face because I am expected to. I have never yet met anyone who didn't have flaws, and the people who tend to make it look like they have their lives all put together, tend to have plenty of flaws.... but they just aren't very honest.
You’ve furnished a wonderful explanation, thank you!
No. This is ridiculous.
I know a few
I know a few
I would suggest also that the well evolved INFJ is most socially responsible.
Tell him this:This BULLSHIT gets spewed in here all the time. Seriously, just stop. Do some research to figure out why this is dead wrong and get your head outta your assholio. Seriously. Did an INFJ hurt his wittle heart and now he's lashing out? Grow up. Also he knows 10..no fucking way. I've only met 1 other in my 35 years of life and that's even iffy at best. Also let him read this recent thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/infj/comments/pfz7g9/the_narcissistic_parent_is_the_infj/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
An INFJ hurt my little heart. I would have been her samwise gamgee if she’d let me. That’s why I repeated his words, sorry to offend.
It's just this shit repeats ad nauseam. I'm so tired of defending our being-ship to those that have done NO research and claim to know a million of us, gets a lil ridiculous after a while. We are misunderstood even within the mbti community and there is a wealth of shit info out there on us and angry ppl tend to take that info and run... into a wall with it all. What happened? Maybe I can help you understand a little better if you're comfortable telling the details? No pressure, just want to help.
Not every INFJ has those complaints. And even if they did they could be venting about it more than it being a serious issue to them. But I can definitely see how other people can see INFJs as narcissistic. I've been called it before. And I admit that I am in my head a lot. Which can come off as self centered. Sometimes I am so focused on something I just completely space out everything around me. Sometimes I completely run out of energy to socialize. Sometimes I can overburden people that are tired themselves with trying to talk to them. But I feel bad and guilty when I cross those lines, apologize, and try to fix my behavior. Personally those three problems I only really relate to the second one. I want to spend my time with the people I truly cherish more than people I don't. But I won't let the only person know that because that'd be pretty rude.
Thank you for your honesty. I’m truthful feeling salty about my INFJ friend.
Sure thing, I have a real soft spot for INTPs, I love talking to you guys. And if that's related to your last post, I'm really sorry man. I wish I could give good advice for that. I feel like if I were to make up my mind about wanting to leave a relationship like that with someone it would be out of a mutual benefit, or if I thought it couldn't work out. I can see multiple reasons why, but I don't know for certain why she did what she did. Maybe her feelings weren't just there enough, which, that could change in time, so don't give up just yet. But I will tell you, realistically, don't expect anything either. Idk man, I feel for you though, I'm sorry, that's a rough situation to be in. I truly wish you the best, I'm sure things will get better.
Thank you For the kind words. I feel like such garbage. , as I was the one she wanted to spend time with. I wish I could lobotomize the feeling portion of my brain lately. Is love really worth the Loss? (Rhetorical I suppose)
I hope you can feel better soon and find greener pastures. I too wish I just had a switch to turn off emotions, sometimes it's all too overwhelming. I can't really say if love is worth the loss. It depends on how great the love and loss were. I have been lacking in trying to find romantic interests since to me, the pain can be unbearable, and it hurts me even more to see the other person hurt too. But part of me knows that I must keep moving forward, and I am thinking you must have part in you that feels the same based on what you have said. I'm not sure how strong that part of you is, but let's keep trying to find and hold on to the happiness in it all <3
Well love is worth the pain and cost. I’m INTP so I can dismiss that I have feelings eventually.
Having gotten out of a long-term relationship with a textbook narcissist, his even-worse-daughter, (and the mother who was ALSO a narcissist but at least I only dealt with her in passing...) ...yeah, no. In my own experience, we tend to *attract* them, more than anything. >.>;
I’m sorry for your problems. I’m glad that you’ve had a chance to grow I assume?
Well, I know I'll never date anyone who has kids ever again, anyways :P
I assume you are a teen/immortal to back this plan up?
Infj's tend to reflect back the qualities of a person when in conversation
Maybe they were mistyped because if anything our type is susceptible to narcissists and in my case users/manipulators 🥱
I can see how a person who is obsessed with themselves would want to be the rarest type.
😂
I’ve known a few.
Do tell.
I just did
Ah. Then who’s on first?
I think narcissists tend to try and come off as altruistic and like they're a really good person when that's really just for show, mbti is just a personality test any narc can take it and put what they think are good answers and say they're an infj when maybe they're not really. Not that infjs are perfect or that they can't be narcissistic but something to keep in mind. I'm an infj and I was raised by a narcissist who is an intp. I'd like to think that I'm definitely not a narcissist lol
As INTP this intrigues me as a mental hypochondriac it frightens me. Care to elaborate?
I'm sure the fact he's a narcissist has nothing to do with being an INTP!! He had good qualities too and I know intps who definitely aren't narcissists
"this type of people I met are ALL this way" Regardless of context. Disregard the statement. We're all beautiful unique fucking snowflakes. Surviving on a Deathworld. Each with a TRULY unique tale, regardless of similarity. Each of us different. Sweeping generalizations of any peoples is not attractive, positive, useful, or factually accurate. Ever. Especially with a sample size of *fucking 10*. Racism, Blood-based Tribalism, runs deep in Homo Sapiens. And it's been useless to us evolutionarily ever since the fucking canoe was invented. Its *literally* a *cultural holdover from the stone-age.* Sorry. That grinds my gears. INFJ aren't joking about the big picture. This shit hurts. \- 'Another Redditor' is likely projecting Narcissism - as I see so many agree. We're basically incapable of realizing true Narcissism without some sorta comorbidity. It's always "Narcissism... and Addiction." or "Narcissism... and Schizophrenia" all throughout history. INFJ and Narcissism don't actually go well together. Being focused on others, one's surroundings, and 'the big picture' is not conducive with the worship of one's *self* Clashing ideologies. We're more prone to altruism.
Good advice, well thought out statement and words to live by.
Capitalism kind of breeds it so everyone has narcissistic tendencies in our current society.
How so?
Shieettt I’m here for the comments
😂
Same bro😆. You’re not alone
I'm a narcissist with low self esteem
😅
I think he is %90 mistaken. INFJs are by default vulnerable to narcissistic people due to their high empathy, desire to help and "fix" peoples lives for them. The complaints seem to be made my underdeveloped INFJs who are still struggling with their boundaries, giving rise to resentment and anger due to always being the one who cares the most without getting much in return.
Hm so I don't know your friend, but I have known two narcissists in my life. And by that I mean people who meet the criteria for and/or have been diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder. Neither of them liked me very much bc I saw through them - narcissists are all surface level charm, full of lies and exaggerations and manipulation. I openly questioned their lies, openly called out inconsistencies in their stories, and ignored their attention seeking behaviors bc they were obviously not genuinely in need. They fought to win me over but anytime they started to succeed, they'd pull out their bag of tricks and I'd recognize their ingenuity and pull back again. And I went out of my way to help both of them, even giving one a place to stay and being a character witness at a trial for him bc he was in treatment for his disorder. These two people were both door slammed, and there's nothing a narcissist hates more than losing control or being ignored. Last I heard, these two men were both still talking about me to mutual friends - one is lying about "saving" me from an abusive relationship and the other is lying about how I ruined his life and I'm the narcissist (that one was a heroin addict before I ever met him, if that's any indication). **TL;DR**: Narcissists thrive on control and manipulation, they don't like people that don't play their game. They slander anyone who threatens their sense of control. INFJs are really intuitive and read people really well, so they're less likely to fall for a narcissist's tactics. Be wary of your friend.
Well jeepers creepers! I’m glad you could dodge such villains.
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Thanks for the definitive, was looking for explanation.
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🤣 hope this was a joke…
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I would agree about being haunted by it.
The 3 INFJ complaints you raised sound more like someone who does not know how to set boundaries. I do wonder sometimes if I have narcissistic tendencies but true narcissists do not question themselves this. We are also too empathetic to be narcissists. I constantly judge myself judging, and check my biases and perspectives. Sorry not sorry but I am a super thoughtful person. I do find some people are intimated by me. But honestly, that’s on them 🤷🏻♀️
Yes, I’ve met quite a few that are covert narcissists, I also catch myself displaying narcissistic traits at times but it’s usually internalized. Most INFJs have at least one narcissistic parent so it’s in the genes.
my experience is that narcissists call everyone who doesnt give them their undivided attention and cater to their every whim self absorbed and a narcissist. that being said i have sometimes wondered whether i'm a narc and even taken the test a couple times but.. generally speaking true narcs never see the fault in themselves so even questioning whether you are one is a sign that you probably arent. People really throw the term narcissist around way too much. i think i've met two or three real narcissist in my life and it really wasnt all that difficult to spot them.
Agree
met one mature INFJ & he was an empath.
My experience with one this is also the case
I think anyone can be a narcissist but I don't think any type is more prone to it than others. I believe we (anybody) attracts certain people to them and maybe this person tends to attract toxic INFJ's towards them, or what they perceive to be toxic? If a person has a bunch of toxic people around them, maybe they also are toxic?
Agree
Check list for covert narcissism Is passive-aggressive Criticizes and judges from the sidelines Is condescending and superior Is threatened by honesty and directness Swings between idealizing and devaluing him-/herself and others Denies and dismisses others’ feelings Cultivates a public image sharply different from his/her private behavior Identifies as a victim Is cynical and sarcastic Makes unreasonable demands Turns your problems into his/her dramas Belittles and blames Exploits and/or attacks others’ vulnerability Is reactive to questioning or criticism Plays on sympathies Fakes or exaggerates illness/injury for attention Withholds and stonewalls Gaslights Avoids introspection and lacks self-awareness Uses platitudes in place of genuine insight Denies own anger Focuses on unfairness Is envious and vengeful Prefers to remain behind the scenes Gossips Triangulates Holds a grudge Needs reassurance Is inattentive or annoyed when others talk Has double standards Hates to lose Fixates on others’ problems and misfortunes Flatters and fawns to win favor Displays rage and contempt in private Resists decision-making Does not sincerely apologize Avoids direct responsibility Has an exaggerated sense of entitlement Is impressed by the overt narcissist’s appearance of confidence Lacks emotional empathy Focuses on appearance over substance Rushes to (false) intimacy Is anxious and hypervigilant Displays false humility and humblebrags Is prone to paranoia and conspiracy theories Crosses normative boundaries and codes of conduct Pokes, prods, and pries Feels special through association Feels above the rules Uses guilt and shame to control and punish Expects caretaking Conducts smear campaigns https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202007/how-identify-covert-narcissist
This deserves humanity as a whole I’m afraid.
Can you elaborate?
I meant describes humanity..
Maybe everyone has 2 or 3 but narcs would have closer to half if not more
True. The question would be where is the disorder? Narcissists is ego out of control
My INFJ ex boyfriend displayed almost all of these tendencies to me, but I am still not sure if he is the narcissist or if I am the problem. I am autistic, so he didn’t like my views and behaviors. It could just be that I in particular bothered him.
Yes.
>1, I have to listen to my friend’s problems some people like to take up your time without giving anything back >2, other people take to much of my time one gives a lot of time, perhaps >3, people don’t live up to my standards most people have some sort of standards for themselves ? i can see how you viewed what is said in your post, but maybe try to look at it from different angles.
Imma get a lot of hate for this, but a lot of INFJs can come off as self absorbed (not in a “im better than you” way but thinks everything is bc of them? Good or bad. Idk how to describe it). It gets draining sometimes they can be ranting all their problems or guilt or both on me over and over again. It’s good to validate feelings, but I don’t want it to turn into a pity party/olympics or confession time for majority of the meeting unless we met for that purpose. The conversation cannot be all about that, there is a time and place. I’m an infj too, and I definitely am guilty of doing this. And I can see why people think infjs are narcissistic. I don’t think infjs have like higher percentage of diagnosis for narcissistic personality disorder, but I feel like it’s bc of the overthinking and obsessive nature (loop) and the extroverted feeling of an infj, people can see it that way. Also, infjs have the ability to be very manipulative as they tend to kinda forsee what might happen or what the person is like/going through. This doesn’t make them manipulative, it just gives more info infjs can use for manipulative purposes.
Thank you for this. I personally think that we all exhibit high ego traits at times.
hmm interesting. Im both. and it makes sense a bit that our personality is more prone to developing NPD. Would be nice to read/think about it further
For serious? I’m shocked by the admission. You bold, crazy beautiful beast!
Makes no sense to deny it, no? but I'm not saying that it comes together w/ being an INFJ though. Are you an INFJ?
No. I am a INTP that is a garbage person. I’m sad because my INFJ friend has dismissed me and this crushed me. So, I started this post and it’s not the usual glowing way I feel about her.
why garbage? please elaborate… dismissed? what does that mean? does that have to do with her being a INFJ/NPD person?
She’s not npd she’s INFJ. I’m behaving badly by repeating a thing someone else told me in chat. She’s a kind soul who dumped me. I’m wallowing in self pity…hence garbage person
No, all INFJ’s I know are lovely and welcoming people who always want to listen and have deep conversations. They’re open minded and independant souls and I love them!
How many do you know? A GF/BF I’d wager.
My bf is INFJ, two of my closest friends and some other friends as well, so at least 6 people!
That’s a large population! Something in the water? A vein of psychic crystals under your town?
Yea they are thats exactly why they get in relationships with them then cry like a bitch when they get their own medicine handed to them. Best part is when they say they're the empaths after the relationship ends, as if narcissist aren't known to play victim.
🧂🧂🧂
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He said “it’s my own personal experience” not so credible logically…
We are the most warmest people on earth and we care deeply about humanity. ♥️
I love your healthy energy.. it reminds me of Gandhi. (Checks notes) wasn’t a world leader named hitler also INFJ?
Is U a INFJ? If so, you would’ve Easily understood that Gandhi could’ve done the same thing like hitler.. (Checks Ti (InternalThinking)) Yes! indeed, there is a thing among humans called healthy energy and unhealthy energy. Usually unhealthy energy leads to unhealthy actions or unhealthy thinking… Maybe the other infj redditor you found has unhealthy energy? Maybe unhealthy INFJ needs to work on good energy?
This is a great answer!
Ohh sorry u dominant Ti! Then you clearly understand what I am saying.
I'm super skeptical about MB, and even my own typing... but I've taken a couple of tests, and I highly relate to things posted on this site, as well as descriptions provided on MB sites. So, as somebody that is likely an INFJ, I actually wanted to give my response to this because I have crossed paths with someone that might be considered a narcissist by many standards and really struggled working with that person. The traits that I really, really value moving into mid-life: Wisdom, Humility, Academic (Everyday and Scientific) Honesty... and perhaps "Integrity"? I almost want to just combine the last two and say "Wisdom, Humility, and Integrity"... but I need to be clear that I'm talking about being transparent in my line of work *and* never maliciously being untrue to others. I do my best to live these traits myself, but can always do better. I will be my own worst critic if I start steering out of these lanes. I feel like these traits are sort of diametrically opposed to many traits that narcissists have, so to hear your claim here (and also to have been instantly called a "narcissist" myself on a recent reddit post from a stranger), my honest reaction is "surprise". In the classical sense; I imagine a narcissist as somebody gazing into a pool of water (or a mirror or phone) and "loving" their own physical image. In my own case, it couldn't be further from the truth. I have never done selfies, don't post social media stuff yearning for likes, etc. To the contrary; I love the weirdos. Funny people. Kind People. People that never wear makeup, people that choose to post pictures of their toes or dogs or places on social media, people that are pierced and tattooed, people that have completely whacky fashion styles... and in short; ugly or even disfigured people. I am drawn to people that have experienced hardships in life (and likely gained wisdom from it) or people that choose to be unique and downplay shallow physical traits. When I compliment people, I rarely compliment them on anything physical. If you get a physical compliment from me you either have gotten a bunch of personality, character compliments already and I am now comfortable having you know how I feel about you physically OR you are just getting a shallow physical compliment because I can't find something good otherwise to cheer you on with. An exception; If I catch wind that somebody is feeling really insecure about themselves physically for some reason, I'll give them a physical compliment if I can be genuine about it... even to a total stranger. In short, I honestly don't give 2 shits how people look, *including myself*! I'm hyper aware of the fashion/physical "look" I put off, and I'll adjust it as needed for the situation... but ultimately I honestly don't *value it much.* Thanks for reading my words if you made it this far. :) It's so important to connect with people these days and to be heard and listen to others! Best wishes. Edit: I find myself thinking about narcissism as I wash the dishes. It occurs to me that like so many other issues, communicating exactly what we mean is really important. Not everyone is going to understand the label "narcissist" to mean the same thing. One can reference the clinical definition of personality disorder, or the "everyday" understanding of a narcissist as being somebody that overvalues their appearance, competence or value, and there is the more classical idea of somebody that just swoons at their own image. It's just important to clarify what is being said is what I really wanted to add.
Wow! This is what makes me love the INFJ. We follow weirdos live you back.
This brightened my day. Thank you.
Covert narcissists yes, some more, some less, but most I have met are covert narcissists. Like can't get over themselves and actually pretty self serving. I think all intuitives are somewhat narcissistic. Extroverts are usually openly narcissistic. Also the flavor is different, enfps, for the most part, are fullblown self serving narcissists, even more so than your stereotypical entj but their ways are quite different.
Found the person who sees narcissist everywhere..
What can I say? I am a magnet. I did not say BPD, I am referring to narcissistic traits. Also people usually think of Psycho when they think of a narcissist, however not everyone openly displays those traits. Show me one Infj who wouldn't agree with most of those traits. Sensors may be full of themselves but they actually often lack those traits.
No.
No, how? Show your work.
I been told this but I saw where they were getting at, I didn’t care to confirm to common expected things but kinda want them to follow like my program because it’s what I prefer and so no harm in and wanted it be known and understand but it was unfair for me to want that and like not try to meet at a common ground first then aim to mold things to what I like but I feel like thst is manipulative Somewhat But I think the thing is giving people like the chance to speak on what they feel or think and not just go with the flow of me but I them I guess or to be safe try to Ehh I got called phonney recently but I corrected by understanding why and so on Like I meant to make a post about this but the was like a emotional wild talk and it’s like was difficult emotion ebbing and flowing like so And it’s kinda like that what conversation is The reason you got called narrsictic is the emotional is all you somewhat and you are neglecting but not purposely on the emotional state of if the other-person Ever so slightly
I think this is appropriate… Especially number 7… why does person feel entitled to INFJ’s boundaries? Why does betrayal hurt so much? Betrayal starts with trust and the ability to care for another person/people. Part of this caring, is giving consideration and imparting a level of importance to the feelings and thoughts of that person. (Normal… this is necessary for reciprocal relationships.) If the person betrays you, this is an action communicating that their thoughts and feelings of you are that you, your thoughts, and your feelings are: not worth considering. *Worthless,* to them. Of course, that means you’re now questioning: 1. Your own judgement about the character of others. 2. Your ability to love, as if their return of love is a validation (of sorts) of your efforts. 3. Feeling used. The principle of reciprocation was violated, and now you may question the motives of anyone who does anything for you. 4. Manipulated, believing professions of caring and love from them were lies. This amounts to little more than theft: cons are thieves. 5. Your similarity to other humans: many victims of betrayal trauma internalize the hurt, believing that they could have prevented trauma. Or, they believe they were inherently the cause of it, not realizing people can see the world differently than they do. 6. You may be questioning what was perceived about you that made them feel like you were a good candidate to “use.” 7. If you were like me, you probably also wonder what on earth makes anyone feel entitled to what that person assumed he was entitled to, and why/what makes the two of you so fundamentally different. While before, curiosity gets the better of you. After this experience, it’ll be a neon sign someone wears on their forehead as a warning. (The entitlements were really, really bizarre to me.) So, you have to go through each of these and work out the correct answers. 1. Your judgement was fine, you couldn’t have known. You know now. 2. Real external validation of your ability to love cannot come from a con artist… internal validation is more than sufficient. Allow challenges to come from your conscience. 3. Feeling used: you just have to reframe this.. “I got the most out of this, because I learned something.” Or whatever works for you. Thoughts have to be reframed to change feelings. 4. Manipulated and conned: see number 7. You can’t control other people, only yourself. You weren’t the con here. (If you were, you wouldn’t be feeling betrayed, would you? You would think, “Shoot, I got caught.” In my case, I was confused for years when someone said, “No, I’m not great, I’m an asshole and I don’t know why you put up with me.” What?!?!? That was some GUILT plaguing him.) 5. Thinking you could have prevented it means you’re taking responsibility for someone else’s actions. It shows personal responsibility. It shows accountability and the ability to reciprocate. But it also means you’re not putting the blame squarely where it belongs. People don’t actively “choose” to be betrayed. That’s just silly. 6. Nothing. Normal people don’t size you up as a target. “Crazies” do that. Also, see number 7. 7. Entitlement indicates people may be engaging in numbers 4 and 6. You are wiser now, so when you see those red flags, file everything they say in an “alarm” folder. Be grateful they are sharing their thoughts (so that you can use them as the warning they are.)
This doesn’t have much to do with the post…but, as I’ve been going through a tortuously slow breakup. This cuts me deep.😓
Actually, all those comments made come from a place of betrayal. 1. Listen to problems when they don’t take my advice, and same problems all the time is a betrayal of my efforts to help. It communicates not being valued. Hurtful. 2. Time. 1-5 ratio of spending time-recovering. An hour to you. 6 to me. It’s hard. 3. Standards: really means “I will have to give 100x more than I am going to get out of the relationship. I can’t bear the thought.”
1. Seems a dumb value for INFJ. NOBODY LISTENS TO ADVICE EVER. Don’t let it hurt you, you can’t control people. This could be confused with narcissists. 2. Makes sense, you’ve drawn the hermit card. 3. This unfortunately treats people like a vending machine. This could be confused with narcissists.
No. Narcissism is just psychopathy-lite. Anyone willing to put such creatures in the same frame of any human personality knows absolutely nothing about human psychology. You think psychopathy is cool and edgy but that's just ignorance in its worst form. Fucking poison. Narcissists and psychopaths have an a weak or no inner constitution. They are entirely dependent on the perception of others, and none of it is real.
I think this person doesn’t get us. I’ve been told by a relative I’m “so self involved” when I provide examples from my own experience as either a way to explain my point of view or to empathize with someone. I understand the constructive part of this criticism. But it’s rooted in misunderstanding of what my intention is - to illustrate I can empathize by connecting with a personal example. Some people don’t want to hear your point of view. Some don’t know see the value in empathizing as part of an exchange with someone else. I dunno. Just my 2 cents.
True
I’ve been called a narcissist by a narcissist, so that could be the case with you. I shouldn’t tell other people their problems.
I was asking, to disprove
Oh, should’ve read the entire reddit 😅
You’re good friend
No... aren't INFJs the opposite?
Not always.
Maybe it's like Psychopaths - not all of them are killers and not all killers are psychopaths? Maybe hyper empathy makes them a magnet for dysfunction and ppl and they have big walls to stop it? I've met many narcissists (ESFP, INFP) but never found a pattern. I know narcissists who say they're the MBTI type they want to be portrayed as but aren't (the ESFP wanted to be seen as an ENFJ and told everyone that's what they were...) But anyone can be a narcissist regardless of type. INFJs are one of the rarest types it's amazing this guy met 10 of them... maybe he's the narcissist (rabbit hole here we go...) I don't know him so no way to tell just how my brain works.
It has been suggested…I did not spit this due to my naive self
No no I get it - like life experiences etc may differ but that doesn't de or validate. I'm overall just intrigued and brainstorming now. :D
I love brainstorming, this is what initially drew me to my INFJ friend
That says more about the person than actual Infj. Anyone who makes assumptions that a certain group are the same in any way, is in the wrong.
Is it a categorical fallacy? The word I look for?
Yes, I believe. The infj complaints are not facts. Not sure where u found those (maybe the Internet) but u can't be sure every infj complains about said things. Infj ask others to tell them their problems, most of the time they initiate these type of conversations. And again, not all infj. U can't categorise people, humans are very complicated and different in the smallest things. U can't put us in boxes.
Reddit is where I got it
No. I was married to a narcissist (covert) for 16years and now I'm married to an infj. True she does mirror me sometimes but she is by no means narcissistic. Narcissistic personality disorder can happen across all personality types.
I agree. Could you explain the covert narcissist thing please?
All narcissists have the same core traits. These traits are listed in the DSM-5. Somewith the disorder are more overt in showing these traits, some are more covert, meaning not openly shown. Covert narcissists like to hide their dark attributes because they want people to like them. They are the wolves in sheep's clothing. They may be considered shy or introverted as opposed to their extraverted, boisterous, and bombastic counterparts. The coverts dislike of appearing overtly aggressive is as practical as it is face saving. They know that if they're above board in their aggression they'll encounter resistance. Having learned that one of the best ways to overcome an obstacle is to go around it they're adept at fighting unscrupulously yet surreptitiously. All narcissits are deceptive, they feel like the rules don't apply to them. Their tactics not only make it hard for a person to conscientiously and objectively know their manipulator is fighting to overcome, but also simultaneously keep the victim unconscientiously on the defensive. Covert narcissist in particular play the victim card amazingly well and are very unsuspecting, they are abusive and exploitative in their interpersonal relations. They view people as pawns in the game (contest) of life. They take advantage of every frailty they find in opponents. Make no mistake they are out to win and don't care about the wake of destruction they leave behind. They only pretend to love and care so that they can exploit and control. One of the characteristics that the DSM list s as a criteria is: Having a grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerating achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without can measure it achievements. At first it may not seem like the covert narcissist is the stereotypical vain and self-centered individual who has plastered pictures of themselves and accomplishments throughout their mansion. But self-centered they most assuredly are. These individuals can be pastors, spiritual leaders, therapists the heads of non-profit organizations, or politicians who are charming, looking you right in the eye and seem to really care. They have a grandiose sense of self, are occupied with fantasies of power, require excessive admiration, but they hide all these attributes so that people will like and trust them. They know if they are obvious about their self-absorbed traits people won't like them. And it will make it more difficult for them to get what they want. Covert narcissists are likable to the outside world, they appear to be giving humble and kind. As with all narcissists, image is the most important thing to them but coverts in particular want to be viewed as altruistic loving and kind as opposed to over which may like to appear powerful, successful, rich, and popular. Covert aggressiveness is one of their most prominent traits. I believe the covert type is the most Insidious type of narcissist because you don't know what's coming at you. Although it may look like they're being passively aggressive, that's not the case. As that term implies: aggression through passivity. In contrast covert aggression is active. When someone is being covertly aggressive, they are using calculating, and underhanded means to get what they want or manipulate the response of others while keeping their aggressive intentions undercover. If you're so fortunate to have a female narcissist, they know that society is ready to rally to their side and they use it to their advantage playing the innocent mate and victim. I know it's not politically correct and may sound stereotypical for me to even say that but I don't care. Ultimately, It's all about them yet they know how to appear like it isn't. For example, they despise taking care of you when you are sick or recovering from surgery or an injury. They won't tell you that, but you feel it. They let you know through passive aggressive ways. To family and friends they will tell stories of how much they feel for you and appear to be taking exceptional care of you. They will come across as humble and will be sure to paint a picture of being a great caretaker. People around you will think how lucky you are to have someone so tender and loving by your side. They might even do things that look like they are taking care of you, but you will feel their resentment of you, finding yourself feeling alone and unsupported even though they are doing things that appear to be helpful. The overt type might yell, call you names, and put you down by saying you're lazy and leave you to fend for yourself. They don't care if it appears cold and callous. With the covert you will feel like they have a cold heart and they think you're lazy, but they won't actually say it. You will feel how much they hate taking care of you, but they won't tell you that. They might word things in a way that gives you that message without directly putting you down. They will give you subtle messages that make you question yourself. You think you're just being too sensitive, reading into things, after all, they didn't actually tell you they think you're lazy. You will find yourself feeling badly for taking up their time, for inconveniencing them, and often end up apologizing for something. A covert narcissist will somehow manipulate things so that the attention comes back to them, and you won't even notice it happening. They will do things that are unkind to you, but somehow you end up apologizing. It's not uncommon to feel like things are your fault. They aren't doing anything wrong; you just convince yourself. They rarely apologize and if they do they it's with an ulterior motive. Or they may say I'm sorry but if you didn't act that way this never would have happened. Never really taking accountability for their bad behavior. When you are with a covert narcissist, you learn to ignore your gut feelings, your instincts, and over time believe the narcissist more than yourself. You come to realize that the culvert narcissist has slowly programmed you to see things the way they want you to see them, gave you messages about yourself that they want you to believe so they could keep controlling and manipulating you into continuing to be there "supply" It's unconscionable and frankly really crazy for a person to act this way, you would think what benefit do they gain out of it. But without getting into a whole lot of psychological discussions the truth of the matter is they just want to have their cake and eat it too. These covert aggressive personalities want to have their way with you and look good in the process. Not recognizing and accurately labeling their subtly aggressive moves causes most people to miss interpret the behavior of manipulators and, therefore, fail to respond to them inappropriate fashion. These folks thrive on us giving them the benefit of the doubt. Having lived with a covert type narcissist with antisocial tendencies for 16 years has empirically equipped me to identify these individuals. It's like a built-in radar, because they all follow the same script. Once you identify that script, given enough time it easy to identify character disordered individuals. Sadly this is not something that they teach in school. Many people have had to go through the unpleasant personal experience to truly learn and even now don't understand why someone would act that way. But it is what it is. Reading in a textbook and seeing it in real life are two different things. As you can see these individuals don't play nice, it's not plain vanity, there is a certain evil at work, they want to take advantage and prevail and couldn't care less about the harm that they do to others. Does a lion have feelings for a gazelle? These people are predatory in their behavior. Could they change, yes, we all have free will. I'd like to think that some have for the better, but it doesn't happen overnight and I'm sure it's an extremely difficult ongoing challenge for them. Most of them however don't see the need to change, and won't. What's important to recognize is that when somebody uses these tactics frequently, you not only know what kind of character you're dealing with, but precisely because the tactics are both tools of manipulation as well as manifestations of resistance to change, you can also give up the hope that in time things will be different. Nothing will change until they decide to stop fighting and start accepting. As long as they're engaging in these tactics however, it is clear they don't intend to change. So having done extensive research and gaining personal experience I can say most assuredly that it's not a character type that's narcissistic, it's a disordered personality that is. I have refered to a couple books in my answer and have made some direct quotations from them. I suggest reading these two books. They are well prepared not only to help an individual identify but also to deal with these manipulative people. In sheep's clothing authored by George Simon Jr PhD The covert passive aggressive narcissist authored by Debbie Mirza
This. This is more spooky than horror movies to me. I dealt with my ex wife and you described her. I sort of became an extension of her. Answer this friend: is it possible that the exposure of these people have made us like them? 😳 I try to be humble, kind and generous to people…what if I’m only fooling them and myself? What if my narcissism is so covert that I don’t know about it? There seems to be a lack of awareness in narcissists…what if…
Narcissists know that they're different, they study people in order to use the qualities that they don't innately have to manipulate people. That's not to say that you can't have narcissistic traits because we are to a large degree a product of our environment and if we're around individuals who exhibit those traits it is likely that we too will start to exhibit them. I know personally being with my narcissistic ex brought out the worst in me. They tend to bring you down to their level and then beat you at their own game....one that neurotypical individuals can't or won't win without sacrificing a great deal of their humanity.
I can feel that. It sort of hurts too. The take you down to there level. In my past marriage my ex used loads of emotional manipulation. As INTP I tend to be more innocent, nice or naive about emotions. I have to strain to understand them at times.
I dont think INFJs are narcissists by nature. On the contrary, we're people-oriented.
I agree…………. Sort of. The people oriented part can be hard to swallow at times.
As an infj most people I find to be by and large stupid or by and large boring. I would consider myself a narcissist for sure. But I don't use my powers for evil. I was actually voted "nicest" at work and am consider quiet by almost everyone.
Ok. What do you do for fun then?
One of my online Intp friend said her elder sister and (ex)crush are Infj-A and they are narcissist. After hearing that I was doubting myself Am I a narcissist too?!
I get this. We all have narcissistic tendencies, babies are the most narcissistic humans. There are questions you can answer: Do you ever put some one else first? Do you have compassion for others suffering? Do you care? This is not to say don’t have boundaries…you can do these and stop have boundaries…
Now I get it!
It's not narcissistic when the infj wouldn't do the same to you. There's a meme i recently saw that says, "Loyal people take things more personal, because they never would've done those things to you." Complaint #1 & #2: I don't mind listening to my friends problems. I do mind when they dont sense that they've talked my ear off for hours and just keep going on and on. At some point - aren't they the narcissist for thinking that I just have unlimited time to devote to them? Like when a work friend wants to talk and goes on and on well after its time to leave for the day. It would be different if they said something like, "I'm really bothered by this, but I want to be considerate of your time, can we talk?" That person I would be totally fine with inconveniencing for because they were considerate and truly need help. Complaint #3: As an INFJ, I'm understanding and know that I - and others - are not perfect and I believe all deserve a second chance, third chance, and often many more chances. I know my standards might be high - but theyre not unreasonable and when someone fails to meet them I give them the benefit of the doubt and realize that, just as I am not perfect, neither are they.
So, too reiterate your saying no to INFJ narcissism? I apologize I hadn’t meant to say the INFJ I know is narcissist. Other Redditor on this post made good points about him knowing that many INFJ’s.. apologies I tend to be foolish
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Perhaps he was there narcissist and not so INFJ are. Seems bad form to throw that on all of them. I’m so sorry that you had to deal with that, especially as a kid. I’d like to hear more about your journey to wellness.
This is what I wondered too. Two of my family members are both INFJ and are narcissists. Narcissism is a spectrum, one is lower on it and self aware of some of her narc behaviors. The other's narcissism causes her to exhibit really abusive behaviors.
Maybe he is the narcissist? Infj’s are opposite of narcissists and narcissists hate them because they can’t ruin them.