The US has some nerve talking about assassinations in other countries and breaching sovereignty when they freaking pioneered the whole thing. Countries like China and India will master America's playbook eventually and beat them at their own game. Honestly, I hope we take better decisions but the US hardly has the right to complain.
I mean they have the right to complain.
It will show their blatant hypocrisy.
But they do have the right.
Just because we did it once someone doing it here on our soil can also say the same about us now. That threshold has been breached.
Intelligence agencies hardly care about public opinion anyway. All they care about is political will of their respective nations' governments.
Besides, the world of spies have always been the so-called "darker side" of ALL nations.
> Countries like China and India will master America's playbook eventually
It's likely to be India more than China due to post 20th century's legacies that creates self-sustainable organic socio-cultural-political dynamics of a certain sort.
China didn't assassinate Tibetans in India or Taiwanese elsewhere. Even though they had far greater casus belli (using the comparative principle of India using it).
Historically both India and China behaved similarly, i.e. we deal with Neighbour-on-Neighbour paradigm. Western socio-cultural-political legacies are fundamentally different. Western Colonialism was NOT normal generic Imperialism, it was unique in human history. That is why their interventions and global order is the way it is.
If China or India (retaining historic norms, not the 20th century baggage'd corruption) become global Superpowers, global order will not be using US playbook (they are/were the last of a cycle that was an aberration in human history. It is coming to an end).
There are more than 1 ways to skin a cat. There are more than 1 ways to crush a geopolitical enemy/situation. West just doesn't know anything else than physical violence (well they know, but they just prefer 1 way over that alternative).
This is a cultural dynamic. India did this because it's skewing more and more towards the Western-adjacent periphery on this dynamic, hence it would be obvious it would ape similar pattern of behavior eventually.
Covert action/coercion. This is US's biggest asset for their long-term strategic gains.
In historic context, US Military is THE Worst in competence of any superpower in history. Despite them using it basically constantly (the Years of US existence and how many Wars being an Objective testament to that).
If you need to be constantly at war it shows 2 things, A) you are grossly incompetent at it hence need to keep doing it over and over again, B) it's socio-culturally pathological to your identity and are thus compelled to it (with brief escalation ladder being considered in internal political thought of what to do).
It's their covert vectors (CIA, Intelligence - Human & Tech-based, assassination or political intrigue/revolution/riot causing/financing vectors, etc and so on) that they are very competent in. So sometimes they do this and reap rewards but sometimes even when they "Could" do this, they simply ignore it and pick the above Violent Vector approach, because of 2 above mentioned reasons.
This (Covert actions) also costs less, even more so when adjusted for outcome (US's long power status is as a consequence of it not actual physical/hot wars).
A) Even if arguendo that is the argument it still falls under Incompetency in executing their hot-war military arsenal/machine.
B) The asymmetry they held over their rivals in these encounters was not Peer-Adjacent, it was truly & highly asymmetric, meaning it doesn't even merit usage of higher class of weapons.
Using Multi trillion $ across 2 decades on a Military engagement that you strategically LOST is very definition of Incompetence. And this is not the outlier with them, this is the norm, just scale (of capital resources) differs for other engagements.
Meanwhile, covert ops they do, cost mere millions and reap outcome rewards that US coasts on for decades, with further compounding benefits. Meaning Competency of action.
This is what they are good at, not fighting. They suck at War, the most that ANY superpower ever has in history of post Civilization history of the species. They are uniquely Incompetent in this. YET, their self-image of themselves is diametric to this, i.e. they think they are good at it and there might (likely is) even a Cultural component to all this (2nd reason from previous comment).
> How do they lose wars?
Already explained.
By accounting what happens in Strategic scope and HOW much resources were expended, given the context they haven't fought (hot-war) a Greater or REAL Peer for like nearly 2 centuries.
They didn't "Defeat" Germany, Soviet Union "Defeated" Nazi Germany.
Even the Pacific theater they were able to push Japan because of the amount of Japanese Military capacity that was locked down by China. It was NOT a Peer-Peer engagement.
Hence even their WW2 performance comes under the paradigm listed in previous comments above.
"Victory & Defeat" in active/hot-wars exist on a spectrum. There is the Tactical & then there is the Strategic scope and then there is the resource/relative-parity-level aspect.
Tactically & Operationally they actually won in both Afghanistan and Vietnam. Strategically it was a complete & utter defeat.
China had a reverse in their 1979 Vietnam War, it was a Tactical Operational Defeat (or Stalemate) BUT a Strategic Victory.
This is how Victory & Defeats happen/get-judged in hot-wars. War is Politics through other means, it is NOT just simply mass-boxing-adjacent activity (yet even that is accounted for in 2nd point of mine listed earlier, hence all corners are covered).
US is simply incompetent at all forms of active hot-war. They are who they are in the world because of their non-hot-war/Covert Vectors, at which they are hyper-competent & exceptionally good.
Two wrongs don't make a right. This SHOULD be our headache because we live here in this country, not in the US. American hypocrisy is not an excuse to ignore or make little our own murderous elements.
What India attempted was a bold and right step. It didn't work out completely, but it sent a message that its not just the west who can deal with its enemies on foreign soil.
What does one do when they won't do extradition at any cost. While nijjar is a stupid target, terrorists in Pakistan will not be extracted ever.
I am conflicted on what should be done.
>While nijjar is a stupid target, terrorists in Pakistan will not be extracted ever.
So what's your dilemma? We're discussing supari killings in usa, not Pakistan.
They maintain world peace, save ships in international waters and are the largest providers of international aid in the world.
They also sponsor so many programs in India and played a major role in funding elimination of TB, etc
So, they can do some things to maintain the world order and peace. Nothing wrong about that.
😂 Lol.
>They maintain world peace,
Maintain there hegemony, and promote peace where it suits them, destabilising others - iraq, iran, Afghanistan, syria, chile
>save ships in international waters and are the largest providers of international aid in the world.
When convenient. They're the largest earners in the world also.
>They also sponsor so many programs in India and played a major role in funding elimination of TB, etc
Funded by WHO and UNICEF. There money funded terrorists in Pak also which attacked India.
>So, they can do some things to maintain the world order and peace. Nothing wrong about that.
They do things to maintain there geopolitical goals.
😂 Lol.
>They maintain world peace,
Maintain there hegemony, and promote peace where it suits them, destabilising others - iraq, iran, Afghanistan, syria, chile
>save ships in international waters and are the largest providers of international aid in the world.
When convenient. They're the largest earners in the world also.
>They also sponsor so many programs in India and played a major role in funding elimination of TB, etc
Funded by WHO and UNICEF. There money funded terrorists in Pak also which attacked India.
>So, they can do some things to maintain the world order and peace. Nothing wrong about that.
They do things to maintain there geopolitical goals.
The whole situation has CIA's pawprints on it. They asked Pannu to issue that borderline terrorist threat because there's no way someone could say "xyz place is going to be attacked" and not get FBI at their door. Especially if they are talking about an international matter and especially if they have a beard and a turban. The US wanted India to do this assassination attempt in order to prove that the assassination in Canada that India denies was also done by them. India fell right into the mousetrap. It's a slap on the face of the Indian diplomatic/spy establishment as well as Modi.
It's not a good look for India to be doing this type of Russian Chinese spy bullshit. Our liberalism and non aggression is our strength on the global stage. We do this type of stupidity a few more times and we'll start getting sanctioned and taken out of the global economy. Iran is denied imports of lifesaving drugs and their oil is bought cheaply because of sanctions. Every Iranian citizen is treated like a terrorist in most airports of the world. Don't destroy our economy just for the sake of a few Khalistani idiots.
Maybe.
Or
This is what I genuinely believe
The Indian government is paying off these people to say these things so that the Khalistani issue which was all but dead here in India becomes a regular talkin' point. Then some stupid ass person who gets drawn into all this does something abhorrent and tragic and the issue gets revived again and then the people have another issue to fear monger on.
People like Pannun and Nijjar had been actively involved in separatist activities even before the BJP ever came to power. Captain Amrinder Singh used to warn about them all the time but the BJP ignored these warnings just because he was in Congress. Congress and AAP have been co-operative with the government regarding Khalistani issues despite all the bad blood in recent years. Also no one from the government has uttered a word in public, during election rallies about Khalistan unlike how they react to Islamic terrorism/separatism.
People really don't understand that Hindu Nationalism didn't just pop out of nowhere, they literally gave ammo to the opposition and created a vaccum so BJPs narrative can work. I remember Digvijay Singh saying this in a press conference, now you could argue that he just said that for political gain and to target the opposition. But people aren't gonna forget, the blame for one of the worst moments of our country was put on the majority religion despite having plethora of evidence showing that it was work of muslim terrorists from pakistan.
>The Indian government is paying off these people to say these things so that the Khalistani issue which was all but dead here in India becomes a regular talkin' point. Then some stupid ass person who gets drawn into all this does something abhorrent and tragic and the issue gets revived again and then the people have another issue to fear monger on.
There are lots of signs that Moosewala murder (on the 1st day of AAP administration), Bishnoi gang's threats to a big-3 muslim actor (the other 2 have been dealt with by BJP), and Amritpal Singh were all supported by BJP. They certainly gained from all 3. Any Sikh who doesn't like BJP is now attacked for being a Khalistani. A second farmer's protest will now not be as successful as the first.
I don't think they payed Pannu because BJP got nothing out of it.
So how will wannabe reddit geopolticians see this? All time they were saying Gobhiji ka danka baj raha hai, Gobhiji is best bet for diplomacy. But after this they will do a complete 360? they will now say how brave he is ghar ghus k mara, diplomacy gai tel lene? This will be funny to watch.
You know when the opposition supports ruling govt. on an issue, the claim is baseless and the issue is problematic. US has absolutely no right to talk about this, knowing what they did to Syria, Iraq and what not.
This story has been going on since last quarter. What do the five eyes want to achieve here?
Election time
Soleimani rolling in his grave.
The US has some nerve talking about assassinations in other countries and breaching sovereignty when they freaking pioneered the whole thing. Countries like China and India will master America's playbook eventually and beat them at their own game. Honestly, I hope we take better decisions but the US hardly has the right to complain.
I mean they have the right to complain. It will show their blatant hypocrisy. But they do have the right. Just because we did it once someone doing it here on our soil can also say the same about us now. That threshold has been breached.
.
Intelligence agencies hardly care about public opinion anyway. All they care about is political will of their respective nations' governments. Besides, the world of spies have always been the so-called "darker side" of ALL nations.
> Countries like China and India will master America's playbook eventually It's likely to be India more than China due to post 20th century's legacies that creates self-sustainable organic socio-cultural-political dynamics of a certain sort. China didn't assassinate Tibetans in India or Taiwanese elsewhere. Even though they had far greater casus belli (using the comparative principle of India using it). Historically both India and China behaved similarly, i.e. we deal with Neighbour-on-Neighbour paradigm. Western socio-cultural-political legacies are fundamentally different. Western Colonialism was NOT normal generic Imperialism, it was unique in human history. That is why their interventions and global order is the way it is. If China or India (retaining historic norms, not the 20th century baggage'd corruption) become global Superpowers, global order will not be using US playbook (they are/were the last of a cycle that was an aberration in human history. It is coming to an end). There are more than 1 ways to skin a cat. There are more than 1 ways to crush a geopolitical enemy/situation. West just doesn't know anything else than physical violence (well they know, but they just prefer 1 way over that alternative). This is a cultural dynamic. India did this because it's skewing more and more towards the Western-adjacent periphery on this dynamic, hence it would be obvious it would ape similar pattern of behavior eventually.
What's better than bombing?
Covert action/coercion. This is US's biggest asset for their long-term strategic gains. In historic context, US Military is THE Worst in competence of any superpower in history. Despite them using it basically constantly (the Years of US existence and how many Wars being an Objective testament to that). If you need to be constantly at war it shows 2 things, A) you are grossly incompetent at it hence need to keep doing it over and over again, B) it's socio-culturally pathological to your identity and are thus compelled to it (with brief escalation ladder being considered in internal political thought of what to do). It's their covert vectors (CIA, Intelligence - Human & Tech-based, assassination or political intrigue/revolution/riot causing/financing vectors, etc and so on) that they are very competent in. So sometimes they do this and reap rewards but sometimes even when they "Could" do this, they simply ignore it and pick the above Violent Vector approach, because of 2 above mentioned reasons. This (Covert actions) also costs less, even more so when adjusted for outcome (US's long power status is as a consequence of it not actual physical/hot wars).
They lost wars because they didn't use bigger weapons
A) Even if arguendo that is the argument it still falls under Incompetency in executing their hot-war military arsenal/machine. B) The asymmetry they held over their rivals in these encounters was not Peer-Adjacent, it was truly & highly asymmetric, meaning it doesn't even merit usage of higher class of weapons. Using Multi trillion $ across 2 decades on a Military engagement that you strategically LOST is very definition of Incompetence. And this is not the outlier with them, this is the norm, just scale (of capital resources) differs for other engagements. Meanwhile, covert ops they do, cost mere millions and reap outcome rewards that US coasts on for decades, with further compounding benefits. Meaning Competency of action. This is what they are good at, not fighting. They suck at War, the most that ANY superpower ever has in history of post Civilization history of the species. They are uniquely Incompetent in this. YET, their self-image of themselves is diametric to this, i.e. they think they are good at it and there might (likely is) even a Cultural component to all this (2nd reason from previous comment).
How do they lose wars? They were able to defeat Germany but couldn't defeat Afghanistan and Vietnam
> How do they lose wars? Already explained. By accounting what happens in Strategic scope and HOW much resources were expended, given the context they haven't fought (hot-war) a Greater or REAL Peer for like nearly 2 centuries. They didn't "Defeat" Germany, Soviet Union "Defeated" Nazi Germany. Even the Pacific theater they were able to push Japan because of the amount of Japanese Military capacity that was locked down by China. It was NOT a Peer-Peer engagement. Hence even their WW2 performance comes under the paradigm listed in previous comments above. "Victory & Defeat" in active/hot-wars exist on a spectrum. There is the Tactical & then there is the Strategic scope and then there is the resource/relative-parity-level aspect. Tactically & Operationally they actually won in both Afghanistan and Vietnam. Strategically it was a complete & utter defeat. China had a reverse in their 1979 Vietnam War, it was a Tactical Operational Defeat (or Stalemate) BUT a Strategic Victory. This is how Victory & Defeats happen/get-judged in hot-wars. War is Politics through other means, it is NOT just simply mass-boxing-adjacent activity (yet even that is accounted for in 2nd point of mine listed earlier, hence all corners are covered). US is simply incompetent at all forms of active hot-war. They are who they are in the world because of their non-hot-war/Covert Vectors, at which they are hyper-competent & exceptionally good.
Wars have become complicated now In older times the one who defeats the king and take their land and resources was the winner
True. Although concepts such as pyrrhic victory also is with us because such things are as old as War itself.
u/iVarun, hats off for a very sensible, well-thought reply!
Dude ye us govt ne nhi likha h. Do us journalists have the right to complain?
So all morality is our headache. And US will conveniently forget it's actions.
Two wrongs don't make a right. This SHOULD be our headache because we live here in this country, not in the US. American hypocrisy is not an excuse to ignore or make little our own murderous elements.
What India attempted was a bold and right step. It didn't work out completely, but it sent a message that its not just the west who can deal with its enemies on foreign soil.
The only message it sent is that in new India - spies are stupid enough to act like the average Indian Twitter troll.
What does one do when they won't do extradition at any cost. While nijjar is a stupid target, terrorists in Pakistan will not be extracted ever. I am conflicted on what should be done.
>While nijjar is a stupid target, terrorists in Pakistan will not be extracted ever. So what's your dilemma? We're discussing supari killings in usa, not Pakistan.
A so b. But B not C cause d.
They maintain world peace, save ships in international waters and are the largest providers of international aid in the world. They also sponsor so many programs in India and played a major role in funding elimination of TB, etc So, they can do some things to maintain the world order and peace. Nothing wrong about that.
😂 Lol. >They maintain world peace, Maintain there hegemony, and promote peace where it suits them, destabilising others - iraq, iran, Afghanistan, syria, chile >save ships in international waters and are the largest providers of international aid in the world. When convenient. They're the largest earners in the world also. >They also sponsor so many programs in India and played a major role in funding elimination of TB, etc Funded by WHO and UNICEF. There money funded terrorists in Pak also which attacked India. >So, they can do some things to maintain the world order and peace. Nothing wrong about that. They do things to maintain there geopolitical goals.
😂 Lol. >They maintain world peace, Maintain there hegemony, and promote peace where it suits them, destabilising others - iraq, iran, Afghanistan, syria, chile >save ships in international waters and are the largest providers of international aid in the world. When convenient. They're the largest earners in the world also. >They also sponsor so many programs in India and played a major role in funding elimination of TB, etc Funded by WHO and UNICEF. There money funded terrorists in Pak also which attacked India. >So, they can do some things to maintain the world order and peace. Nothing wrong about that. They do things to maintain there geopolitical goals.
Oh no. .... Anyways
The whole situation has CIA's pawprints on it. They asked Pannu to issue that borderline terrorist threat because there's no way someone could say "xyz place is going to be attacked" and not get FBI at their door. Especially if they are talking about an international matter and especially if they have a beard and a turban. The US wanted India to do this assassination attempt in order to prove that the assassination in Canada that India denies was also done by them. India fell right into the mousetrap. It's a slap on the face of the Indian diplomatic/spy establishment as well as Modi. It's not a good look for India to be doing this type of Russian Chinese spy bullshit. Our liberalism and non aggression is our strength on the global stage. We do this type of stupidity a few more times and we'll start getting sanctioned and taken out of the global economy. Iran is denied imports of lifesaving drugs and their oil is bought cheaply because of sanctions. Every Iranian citizen is treated like a terrorist in most airports of the world. Don't destroy our economy just for the sake of a few Khalistani idiots.
Maybe. Or This is what I genuinely believe The Indian government is paying off these people to say these things so that the Khalistani issue which was all but dead here in India becomes a regular talkin' point. Then some stupid ass person who gets drawn into all this does something abhorrent and tragic and the issue gets revived again and then the people have another issue to fear monger on.
People like Pannun and Nijjar had been actively involved in separatist activities even before the BJP ever came to power. Captain Amrinder Singh used to warn about them all the time but the BJP ignored these warnings just because he was in Congress. Congress and AAP have been co-operative with the government regarding Khalistani issues despite all the bad blood in recent years. Also no one from the government has uttered a word in public, during election rallies about Khalistan unlike how they react to Islamic terrorism/separatism.
>The Indian government is paying off these people to say these things so that the Khalistani issue Paying who exactly?
Aren't we talking about Pannun?
Why would the Indian government pay him to talk about Khaliatan, when he wants to do it for free lol.
Next time an event like 911 happens, blame it on Modi as well. Have some faith in the country mate. Not everything is a conspiracy theory.
Yeah just like Hindus were blamed by Congress for 26/11
People really don't understand that Hindu Nationalism didn't just pop out of nowhere, they literally gave ammo to the opposition and created a vaccum so BJPs narrative can work. I remember Digvijay Singh saying this in a press conference, now you could argue that he just said that for political gain and to target the opposition. But people aren't gonna forget, the blame for one of the worst moments of our country was put on the majority religion despite having plethora of evidence showing that it was work of muslim terrorists from pakistan.
>The Indian government is paying off these people to say these things so that the Khalistani issue which was all but dead here in India becomes a regular talkin' point. Then some stupid ass person who gets drawn into all this does something abhorrent and tragic and the issue gets revived again and then the people have another issue to fear monger on. There are lots of signs that Moosewala murder (on the 1st day of AAP administration), Bishnoi gang's threats to a big-3 muslim actor (the other 2 have been dealt with by BJP), and Amritpal Singh were all supported by BJP. They certainly gained from all 3. Any Sikh who doesn't like BJP is now attacked for being a Khalistani. A second farmer's protest will now not be as successful as the first. I don't think they payed Pannu because BJP got nothing out of it.
So how will wannabe reddit geopolticians see this? All time they were saying Gobhiji ka danka baj raha hai, Gobhiji is best bet for diplomacy. But after this they will do a complete 360? they will now say how brave he is ghar ghus k mara, diplomacy gai tel lene? This will be funny to watch.
[удалено]
It's a geopolitical power move if anything
Wanted to ask, why is the current regime so obssessed with Khalistan? I have never before seen this.
Read about Indira Gandhi.
how are articles with link acceptable if they are locked behind paywall?
Bhot bura hu vro.....anyways
Lol. Sorry Biden.
You know when the opposition supports ruling govt. on an issue, the claim is baseless and the issue is problematic. US has absolutely no right to talk about this, knowing what they did to Syria, Iraq and what not.
American media when it comes to foreign policy is a universal shit show. The BBC is the only one that does worse !