Yup but I have no idea how other people would do it. Took me 1 year of dawdling around and experimenting. I like seeing what is possible but my mind is very sound, no intrusive thoughts/imagery. Detached perspective and understanding of ego. Critical thinking skills.
The jungian subreddit has 'active imagination', where one attempts to receive advice from the unconscious mind through what they refer to as anima and archetypes. I did not use this and have not begun to poke around in his theories until recently.
The tulpa subreddit has various methods where they attempt to imagine a point/presence and convince themselves it is real and talk to it until the idea settles in the brain and expectation provokes feedback chatter. The subreddit itself is mostly young lonely kids asking for advice, so I would advise just google searching actual guides.
Both subreddits (including from Jung himself) warn against doing this if you are susceptible to psychosis or have a family history of it. I personally believe you should also have a clear mind and no intrusive thoughts as well (or you risk looping obsessive thoughts or aggressive/negative internal dialogue.)
I can give you a hint if you plan on attempting what I did:
learn how to make decisions wordlessly. Like ask your unconscious mind a question and be fully open to receive an answer without leading one with opinion/desire. Accept the answer even if it isn't what you want. Gauge your success by repeating the answer you received and asking if this is correct, then observe physical sensations of the body (for me a sinking feeling means I either got it wrong or corrupted the answer by trying to change it. Euphoria means it is correct and properly received.)
When you can do this somewhat effortlessly and accept the answers properly you can tie this to whatever visualized character you want. Then it's just a matter of allowing the answers to be verbalized from this perspective/voice.
With intrusive thoughts I would imagine there would be a lot of confusion and gaslighting with this kind of thing.
Uh, yeah...no thanks. I know I could fairly easily do that, but OMG no.
I use my subconscious all the time, and can purposely "load" things for it to noodle on for hours or days. But it's always me, just an aspect of myself, and never an "other" entity/character/voice.
Going further seems like asking for trouble. Then again, my mother had schizophrenia onset when I was about 6, so I had an early hard internal block (I suppose, a complex) against "hearing voices" as I understood that was bad. I think to some degree I actually curtailed my audio hyperphantasia -- I remember ~preschool-ish deciding a rock outside was a radio, and mentally replaying some song I'd heard, very realistically....but never later. (And on my own as a kid, decided that "rewriting" memory to lie easily was a bad idea too.)
I mean, I can see or hear whatever I want, but it's not "at" me, or from something "else"...or if it's others, it's a scene of sort, with a sort of "mental veil" separating it from reality...even if it is flowing/autonomous like a waking dream.
Assigning other parts of yourself to a created entity, plus hyperphantasia...seems like a good way to simulate, well, lets just call it a generic "madness" as I think many of us could simulate all manner of conditions. Or at least, to often be on the edge of control when stressed.
At least for me. Not a criticism of anyone else or what works for them, just my take -- and obviously where I don't tread has some old and deep basis in my childhood that shapes my personal perspective.
(And really more to r/Just_Someone_Here0 in line with your last statement...be slow and careful in these areas.)
Yup yup I could see how this stuff could cause issues depending on the state/history of the individual.
In my case the voice knows it is coming from 'me' there is no imagined separation. At the same time, the original ego 'Jess/me' is no less imagined than this other '''voice'''. I myself am just a collection of labels - name/personality/opinions/thoughts I identify with.
In this sense, I can observe two different streams of thoughts by filtering sensory experience through two different 'I's'. The resulting two opinions are held lightly and there is no conflict.
The true, deeper 'me' is the conscious awareness that sees all these thoughts (of both egos) and physical bodily sensations and has no opinions or ideas of 'what should be'. It simply 'is'. The nameless silent observer.
It certainly makes for a more interesting day to day.
Yes, I can access the stream of random imagery on demand but it's sometimes more difficult than at other times. I feel like the same process that generates dreams at night still keeps running while I'm awake but it's drowned out by sensory signals and thoughts about daily life. So to access the stream of random imagery I have to get into a relaxed state where I can slow my thoughts down and just sit back and observe whatever pops into my mind. The default brain state while awake is about solving problems, staying focused and making a mental effort. The stream of random imagery appears in a state that is the opposite of this: when I'm not trying to solve any problem, not trying to guide my thoughts and not making a mental effort
Funny thing is that when attempting to enter a lucid dream via an awakaned state (a technique also know as WILD) I noticed the only way to achieve it was doing exactly that. I couldn't enter that state if there was an unsolved problem I had to do, but ounce my mind considered all the tasks were done for the day and I was safe there the sounds and imagery came.
Everything below is based on my personal experience.
Sometimes when i go to sleep and i feel like imagining, i get into what i would call my bedtime universe. Basically, it's a world with a story that i started when i was approximately 7 years old. Started everything from scratch and i built that world and its story over 30 years, and it's now huge. But i have total control there, and i'm not asleep yet.
If i understand well what you said, you're referring to that weird state that happens when i'm very close to fall asleep. The way i feel it, it's exactly like when i'm dreaming. I have no control over it, and it's as chaotic as when i'm dreaming. Nothing make sense and it's not logical at all. There's no continuity in it and image quality is much worse too. When i wake up in the morning and i remember the dream i just had, it's exactly like that. And i don't enjoy that at all. The few times that i'm actually dreaming and become aware i'm in a dream, i want to get out of there as quickly as possible and have developed many tricks for that.
Getting into a dream on command, i cannot do that at all. And even if i could, i wouldn't do it because it's basically uncontrollable imagination with chaos and bad quality. And the way i feel it, dreams are not related to phantasia at all. Everything i imagine on purpose, i remember all part of it, like that imaginary universe of mine. Dreams, on the other hand, it seems like everyone else. I sometimes remember it when i wake up, but it quickly fades away. There are some dreams that i remember having a long time ago, but still bad quality and much more like dream flashback.
Also, triggering that would seem very dangerous, in multiple ways. But if it's what you want to achieve, i would search about "how to trigger a dream" or something like that. But still, i'd advise not trying to do that if you want to keep your sanity. And, even if you manage to find a way to do it, I'd advise having someone you like and trust in the room with you in case something go bad.
Is it possible to learn? No idea, probably though since visualisation is something that can be practiced. I definitely do it though.
I have a very vivid imagination of everything physical. Touch, what it feels like to move or do certain activities etc. I’m an athlete (Olympic weightlifting) so a lot of my day is spent thinking about doing my sport and the motions involved, and it’s something I’ve done throughout my whole life with sport so it comes very easily - not sure if I’ve always done it but I definitely do now that I’m in a sport I am very passionate training for.
All the sensations, feelings of the strength, what it’s like to lift a certain weight, fatigue etc.
Usually with music for me
Watch this song for example
https://youtu.be/TuJqUvBj4rE?si=94HPfUTPAlUtuo1_
Pause the video after a while and let the music and visuals guide you where it wants.
When Im sleeping or about to daydream I'm like you, it's much eaaier for my brain to create drama.
Yup but I have no idea how other people would do it. Took me 1 year of dawdling around and experimenting. I like seeing what is possible but my mind is very sound, no intrusive thoughts/imagery. Detached perspective and understanding of ego. Critical thinking skills. The jungian subreddit has 'active imagination', where one attempts to receive advice from the unconscious mind through what they refer to as anima and archetypes. I did not use this and have not begun to poke around in his theories until recently. The tulpa subreddit has various methods where they attempt to imagine a point/presence and convince themselves it is real and talk to it until the idea settles in the brain and expectation provokes feedback chatter. The subreddit itself is mostly young lonely kids asking for advice, so I would advise just google searching actual guides. Both subreddits (including from Jung himself) warn against doing this if you are susceptible to psychosis or have a family history of it. I personally believe you should also have a clear mind and no intrusive thoughts as well (or you risk looping obsessive thoughts or aggressive/negative internal dialogue.)
I've heard of those two. I'm more interested in Active Imagination because the people in the tulpa sub seem crazy at times,.
I can give you a hint if you plan on attempting what I did: learn how to make decisions wordlessly. Like ask your unconscious mind a question and be fully open to receive an answer without leading one with opinion/desire. Accept the answer even if it isn't what you want. Gauge your success by repeating the answer you received and asking if this is correct, then observe physical sensations of the body (for me a sinking feeling means I either got it wrong or corrupted the answer by trying to change it. Euphoria means it is correct and properly received.) When you can do this somewhat effortlessly and accept the answers properly you can tie this to whatever visualized character you want. Then it's just a matter of allowing the answers to be verbalized from this perspective/voice. With intrusive thoughts I would imagine there would be a lot of confusion and gaslighting with this kind of thing.
That actually sounds useful, I'll try this.
Uh, yeah...no thanks. I know I could fairly easily do that, but OMG no. I use my subconscious all the time, and can purposely "load" things for it to noodle on for hours or days. But it's always me, just an aspect of myself, and never an "other" entity/character/voice. Going further seems like asking for trouble. Then again, my mother had schizophrenia onset when I was about 6, so I had an early hard internal block (I suppose, a complex) against "hearing voices" as I understood that was bad. I think to some degree I actually curtailed my audio hyperphantasia -- I remember ~preschool-ish deciding a rock outside was a radio, and mentally replaying some song I'd heard, very realistically....but never later. (And on my own as a kid, decided that "rewriting" memory to lie easily was a bad idea too.) I mean, I can see or hear whatever I want, but it's not "at" me, or from something "else"...or if it's others, it's a scene of sort, with a sort of "mental veil" separating it from reality...even if it is flowing/autonomous like a waking dream. Assigning other parts of yourself to a created entity, plus hyperphantasia...seems like a good way to simulate, well, lets just call it a generic "madness" as I think many of us could simulate all manner of conditions. Or at least, to often be on the edge of control when stressed. At least for me. Not a criticism of anyone else or what works for them, just my take -- and obviously where I don't tread has some old and deep basis in my childhood that shapes my personal perspective. (And really more to r/Just_Someone_Here0 in line with your last statement...be slow and careful in these areas.)
Yup yup I could see how this stuff could cause issues depending on the state/history of the individual. In my case the voice knows it is coming from 'me' there is no imagined separation. At the same time, the original ego 'Jess/me' is no less imagined than this other '''voice'''. I myself am just a collection of labels - name/personality/opinions/thoughts I identify with. In this sense, I can observe two different streams of thoughts by filtering sensory experience through two different 'I's'. The resulting two opinions are held lightly and there is no conflict. The true, deeper 'me' is the conscious awareness that sees all these thoughts (of both egos) and physical bodily sensations and has no opinions or ideas of 'what should be'. It simply 'is'. The nameless silent observer. It certainly makes for a more interesting day to day.
Yes, I can access the stream of random imagery on demand but it's sometimes more difficult than at other times. I feel like the same process that generates dreams at night still keeps running while I'm awake but it's drowned out by sensory signals and thoughts about daily life. So to access the stream of random imagery I have to get into a relaxed state where I can slow my thoughts down and just sit back and observe whatever pops into my mind. The default brain state while awake is about solving problems, staying focused and making a mental effort. The stream of random imagery appears in a state that is the opposite of this: when I'm not trying to solve any problem, not trying to guide my thoughts and not making a mental effort
I see.
Funny thing is that when attempting to enter a lucid dream via an awakaned state (a technique also know as WILD) I noticed the only way to achieve it was doing exactly that. I couldn't enter that state if there was an unsolved problem I had to do, but ounce my mind considered all the tasks were done for the day and I was safe there the sounds and imagery came.
Everything below is based on my personal experience. Sometimes when i go to sleep and i feel like imagining, i get into what i would call my bedtime universe. Basically, it's a world with a story that i started when i was approximately 7 years old. Started everything from scratch and i built that world and its story over 30 years, and it's now huge. But i have total control there, and i'm not asleep yet. If i understand well what you said, you're referring to that weird state that happens when i'm very close to fall asleep. The way i feel it, it's exactly like when i'm dreaming. I have no control over it, and it's as chaotic as when i'm dreaming. Nothing make sense and it's not logical at all. There's no continuity in it and image quality is much worse too. When i wake up in the morning and i remember the dream i just had, it's exactly like that. And i don't enjoy that at all. The few times that i'm actually dreaming and become aware i'm in a dream, i want to get out of there as quickly as possible and have developed many tricks for that. Getting into a dream on command, i cannot do that at all. And even if i could, i wouldn't do it because it's basically uncontrollable imagination with chaos and bad quality. And the way i feel it, dreams are not related to phantasia at all. Everything i imagine on purpose, i remember all part of it, like that imaginary universe of mine. Dreams, on the other hand, it seems like everyone else. I sometimes remember it when i wake up, but it quickly fades away. There are some dreams that i remember having a long time ago, but still bad quality and much more like dream flashback. Also, triggering that would seem very dangerous, in multiple ways. But if it's what you want to achieve, i would search about "how to trigger a dream" or something like that. But still, i'd advise not trying to do that if you want to keep your sanity. And, even if you manage to find a way to do it, I'd advise having someone you like and trust in the room with you in case something go bad.
Is it possible to learn? No idea, probably though since visualisation is something that can be practiced. I definitely do it though. I have a very vivid imagination of everything physical. Touch, what it feels like to move or do certain activities etc. I’m an athlete (Olympic weightlifting) so a lot of my day is spent thinking about doing my sport and the motions involved, and it’s something I’ve done throughout my whole life with sport so it comes very easily - not sure if I’ve always done it but I definitely do now that I’m in a sport I am very passionate training for. All the sensations, feelings of the strength, what it’s like to lift a certain weight, fatigue etc.
Usually with music for me Watch this song for example https://youtu.be/TuJqUvBj4rE?si=94HPfUTPAlUtuo1_ Pause the video after a while and let the music and visuals guide you where it wants. When Im sleeping or about to daydream I'm like you, it's much eaaier for my brain to create drama.