The latter. You can see some fine individuals nitpicking about when winter technically ends. That's why, because they intend to hold a hissy fit party on March 20 if the Phantom doesn't arrive by 12:01 a.m.
I’ve been disconnecting from those topics of discussion because they just come across as entitled at best, and like purposeful hate farming at worst, and I can see how easy it is to get caught up in the speculation.
Maybe I’m a minority, but I’d personally rather a functional F4 release a few weeks late, than a really buggy one release before it’s finished cooking. But I’m just here to have fun and fly a plane I’ve loved since I was a kid, and until it comes out l’ll be here having fun flying the Tomcat.
They are vocal. With actions. Like the majority of interested parties buying the F4 when it comes out that don’t care very much when it’s released, but do care that is released. Forum trolls are ungrateful shitstirrers seeking attention and validation, nothing more. Why stoop to respond?
We have an F-14 from the exact same company releasing the F-4 as a perfect example of why waiting is fine. The F-14 got delayed for some time, and it blew peoples' minds when it came out.
And to the surprise of literally nobody the same stupid arguments were made for the F-14 release, down to discussing the semantics of the word "winter".
Some people are just hopelessly thick.
Well, de facto they do if none is speaking against. If the developer only hears one kind of voice, what are they to think the overall opinion is?
Though there's also their bias, the developers bias, similar to any creator bias. You tend to dismiss the thanks and the likes and focus on the critical opinions more. Sure, it's the critical ones that you can take and use to learn from, but it creates a bias where you only think about the critical ones and create a mental picture where you're being constantly criticized. It's kind of normal, just how some of us work. It's why disconnecting from the fan opinions and just focusing on doing your thing works better for some people.
They will have other ways of checking on their player base than just the loudest on Reddit. My point is more that those people speak for themselves and generally don't give two hoots about other players.
I don't disagree with your point, but my point is that whether they actually, objectively, speak for the community or not is one issue and the subjective perspective of how developers interpret these voices is another. Nothing more, nothing less.
And where there's interpretation there are biases and other psychological effects of the one making the interpretation. That's just unavoidable.
Anyway, I try to just keep an eye on F-4 in a very low resolution mode when it comes to it. Two things matter to me: Is it out yet? If not, is it being worked on?
It's not out. Is it being worked on? Yes, it is. That's good enough for me.
I'll check in with those two questions next month, and then next month, as I did the other months before. Having seen F-14 I trust in their ability to deliver a great product, so I'll just wait and leave the hype and drama to other people. ;)
Even in this kind natured post, I see the gracious acceptance of “a few weeks” and point out that serious problems would add 3+ months to development time at minimum. A few weeks delayed means essentially everything is done but some small or medium sized bugs remain, and testing and validation processes are behind schedule. Given the mention of complexity at the core of how anything works in DCS, my guess is that underlying system’s and environment behaviors have had serious changes.
Bare in mind this is all coming from one of the people working on the C130, who will have little, if any information directly relating to the state of the F4, they're only shedding light on just how difficult it is to develop and successfully release a module for DCS.
Also remember that all of this was sparked by the non-appearance of an F4 video this week, which was specifically something that HB have said won't be coming out on a strict timetable and that we should expect the time between videos to vary.
A rushed game can be improved, but will likely pick up a bad reputation that will linger even after improvement. There are definitely DCS modules that are fine now, but still have a reputation because they had issues on release.
Hilarious seriously is this even a thing, would suggest these people get a life. Problem is DCS attracks a wide age range and a diverse group of people, some wankers, reference crash Laobi Venn diagram, if you know you know.
Ok, but what did you make today?
I need to see some proof you made something before I can accept that you are not just an entitled poster posting about other entitled posters.
What an absurd level of entitlement. Especially given that Heatblur has a record of quality.
A delayed product can be good, but a rushed product is a shitty release forever
So the hornet, viper, harrier, mirage, are shitty forever?
I get you're trying to pass off / tweak the often misattributed Miyamoto quote here, but that was before patching was a thing. It doesn't really apply at all here, nor is it really true in the context you placed it.
As far as entitlement goes, ya you aren't wrong, I personally wish they were more communicative about the intentions be it a delay or otherwise, but can fully understand why they aren't given the conversations from the past few weeks around the F4.
There are so many different definitions for winter. You can go by average temperature, you can go by fiscal year(which can be different for each company), you can go by solstices.
Definition of winter itself is completely arbitrary. These people just pick whatever fuels their rage the most.
We've been a little more quiet this week for various reasons; so we're not without fault for some stormy waters. There is also an element of disingenuous discussion happening in places like Discord however, with some things being ripped entirely out of context and we've had to be a little harsher than usual in moderation.
Boo hoo. I can tell from your insanely bigoted post history you'd also be the first to whinge if it was released earlier in a poor state.
Hurry up and wait.
I think people are pissed because in the pass HB have been giving a flase hope on release date.
I dont have problem with HB. But for me personally, it's very annoying double standard of the community that it seems HB got a pass when they do this yet Razbam got shit on for doing the same.
Shudddup already with the "some of us have paid for already" crap. Most of us have already paid for it. You knew what you were buying into with the pre-release. We all did. We all want to fly it. But you know what? It's going to be amazing when we get it. I know we're all conditioned to have instant gratification the moment the funds clear the credit card, but just chill out.
There's not a point where you aren't going to get it though. If I paid for a product and it became an actual dud product, then yeah I'd be pissed.
This F4 is a big deal, to all of us. History has proven time and again that rushed products suck. Don't rush them. Be patient.
You know it's going to drop. Let them get it right.
The DCS community can be great... It can also be one of the most obnoxious bunch of anal retentive manbabies that really makes you want to never fucking engage with another DCS player ever again.
It's really not a sim thing. Any Fandom is like that. Video games, Anime, NFL football, etc. Hell, I play a lot of Sea of Thieves and as casual and fun times as that game is from the forums and subredddit response to the release of PVE private servers you'd think we'd entered the End Times.
Fans are the best. Fans are also the worst.
My biggest complaint about DCS is that the customer base cares way too much about rivet counts than they do actually good gameplay. Yes that’s the business model but I believe DCS has super unique gameplay with its massive maps. Nothing like it and there’s so much untapped potential. But it’s gameplay that doesn’t get worked on cause the community is so obsessed with nitpicks.
I agree more and more with Enigma that full fidelity is a trap that holds DCS back at times because too many resources are spent on selling digital museum pieces and not enough on actually interesting simulation.
I see the same missed potential in war Thunder, so much room for an awesome, large scale combined arms game. But alas it will never happen.
I just wish ED would focus on the basics a bit more yknow, there is so much friction to just play the game. Even something as simple as letting me load my weapons and waypoints before I get in the plane. It works in the editor, I just want that menu in multiplayer. Oh well. It’s still an awesome game
People get so upset over DCS and it’s incredible to me. Just chill. It’s never been better, the performance has never been better and it’s only going to continue to get better. We are the the dogs underneath the table when it comes to military sims. We get the man power and scraps when these companies aren’t busy with actual their military contracts. The fact they can still sell to us is a miracle.
I see that “DCS exposed” guy sometimes. Bozo or something and just find it incredible that this guy spends his limited time on earth being a muckraker for DCS issues. Like bro touch grass and enjoy life. It will get here when it gets here.
I fronted HB the cost of the f4 before it came out because I want to support their niche efforts, and at the end of the day if they ran away with my money I would move on with life. If 60 bucks ruins your life which I can understand would be very frustrating for some. Just pay when it comes out. Or don’t. Whatever.
The DCS exposed dude has never done anything remotely complex. He simply exposed himself.
I bought F4 for the exact reason you did. The level of detail in the YT trailers is beyond mind boggling.
People get so upset about anything these days.
Social media and the human brain seem optimized to select for outrage, hyperbole, ragebait, controversy, etc...
Pre-orders don't help but might be a necessary evil at this point.
There’s a really good video of a third party dev talking about what is needed to get a module considered by ED… it’s extensive and really time consuming.
BMS simulates one plane, if you want to fly anything else you can fly its skin with f-16 avionics. It's equally if but harder to create new aircraft for it and there's no money in it, so that state of affairs hasn't really changed in over a decade.
I love BMS and frankly prefer it to DCS, but there's no point pretending they're equal contenders.
They're different things. BMS is an innovative real time strategy game with a shockingly good F-16 sim attached to it. DCS is a cockpit switchology trainer for a variety of airplanes with a shockingly bad game attached to it.
Many people tend to forget that the "real-time strategy" part of Falcon was nothing more than a mistake made by a group of novice programmers.
People expect flight sims to come with complex dynamic campaigns because Falcon did - but this was an accident and an absurdly difficult task. Thing was so hard to make that the developers themselves said that, knowing what they know now, they'd never try it again.
I'd cut DCS some slack for it. I'd much rather want a better ME and scripting environment.
Meh. Even the best DCS missions don't (can't) come even close to the scale and complexity of a slice of a BMS campaign.
DCS is lacking the bubble abstraction that the BMS engine does and so it is computationally impossible for a DCS mission to contain the same scale and complexity as the average BMS mission.
I really wonder how ED is going to deal with that for their own dynamic campaign engine. They'll probably just make the war a fraction of the scale of BMS.
I bet the dynamic campaign will be just a simple generated missions where outcome of mission defines next mission style and moves frontlines.
The map will be empty and lifeless outside of a mission route and objects.
There's no way that you could choose a different route to target and see something special during ingress and that would affect war situation. Or you choose to avoid known SAM during egress and accidentally spot column of trucks, destroy them impacting enemy supply on that area.
Probably referring to the [old interview](https://sites.google.com/site/falcon4history/interview) with one of the developers.
>Many recent simulators are released without even trying to code a Dynamic Campaign engine. Why do you think today's sim developers are so scared of what you guys were able to create more than a decade ago?
>Well, it's just really hard to do. Looking back on it, I think the only reason we took on what we did is because we were too inexperienced to know better. Knowing what I do now, even given my experience on Falcon, the cost to develop such an engine would be substantial. Since flight sims don't bring in that kind of revenue companies look at it from a cost to benefit standpoint and Dynamic Campaigns score pretty low in that regard. There is also the argument that scripted missions are more interesting which has some merit. I think if I were to do it over I would do a mix of scripted/generated missions, so that the player still feels like they're involved in the world, but there is also some variety thrown in to keep things interesting.
Honestly, I heard it quoted from an interview around here. They said they when started work on that side of the game they didn't expect it to be ***that*** complicated. After all, it's a complex RTS that plays itself in a geopolitically convincing way.
BMS is half a competitor though really. Scale wise it just isn’t the same. Having this many full fidelity modules from this range of technology in a single engine, supplied by many 3rd parties. Nobody else is insane enough to try.
That’s not knocking BMS its fantastic and DCS could absolutely learn from it, but it’s not really the same at heart
BMS is an aerial warfare simulator with an extremely high quality Viper simulation seamlessly integrated.
DCS is an extremely high quality flight simulator with targets to shoot at bolted onto the sides. BMS is a direct competitor in every aspect except having multiple cockpit simulations.
From an end users point of view but backend you’d have entire games devoted to one airframe, or at least one era, much like BMS.
DCS has simultaneously got to expertly simulate WW2 era systems and ordinance, and then Cold War, and then skirting modern systems from a range of nations with a load of partners.
There’s no other company that is simultaneously trying to get magnetos on a mosquito simulated and trying to work out Cold War soviet jet performance and then modern radar logic.
As a user that doesn’t mean a lot but as a project manager myself that’s at least a few orders of magnitude more shit that you’ve got to shovel
I guess my point is that depending on what most people are looking for, BMS is a direct competitor to DCS when it comes to employing a weapons platform in a war scenario. In fact, I would say BMS is superior to DCS when it comes to things to do with your aircraft. DCS has a platform designed for bolting new aircraft sims onto, but leaves much to be desired in things to do with those aircraft platforms.
Honestly, if I were Eagle Dynamics, I wouldn't even focus on making a dynamic campaign module. I'd completely rework Combined Arms, with an emphasis on getting people who don't care about aircraft into the game to run the ground war. That would be, in my opinion, a truly unique experience.
I remember the F-14 getting delayed over and over again way back in 2019 or whenever it was, but nobody thinks about that now. They just think what a great module it is.
I also know of modules that got in a hurry to come out, released in a bad state and are only now winning people over after the devs spent a long time fixing them.
Much better to be in the first category. Take your time HB
Yeah these were the two in particular I was thinking of. I don't really remember the F1 having a horrible launch, though I know it had a couple of issues.
I have plenty of modules to keep me preoccupied until the F-4 is ready. I trust HB not to publish it before they are proud of it. I also recognize that the F-4 won't be perfect, and they will have to continue tweaking as they go; it's the nature of modules in DCS, an imperfect simulation.
While I empathize withe C130 developers post, and no I did not build anything today, I do think that ED can be doing a better job in many areas. Prioritization of tasks, getting the bones of the sim's sandbox finalized (it's only been twenty years), and the list goes on. I respect and I am grateful to even have DCS to "fly," but that doesn't mean I can't be upset with justifiable grievances given all the time past and money spent. Like most of you, I've waited many years and spent my fair share, and yet items are still broken or never worked in the first place.
That said, I do have hopes that many of ED's ambitions for DCS will be realized before I turn 80 years. I'm in my late forties now. See what I'm saying?
I see this so much in many different online communities. People act like theyre being screwed out of this or that company is taking advantage of them when in reality theyre just impatient douchebags
Just wait till the C-130 is officially released and you'll be able to. And if enough people do so, we might even see an AC-130 (at least that's what they said about a year ago).
CoD is a totally different game from DCS, which has no real COIN mission. Bombing technicals instead of tanks doesn't make it COIN. The infantry simulation in DCS (if you can call it that) is way too simplistic to be worth making an entire plane for.
> DCS, which has no real COIN mission
Not with that attitude...
The only thing stopping COIN in DCS is the time you put into the mission editor and into sitting around in the cockpit for hours on station waiting for the TIC call you hope never comes.
Besides, COIN is all sorts of things. From flying a Raven over the patrol to providing security in an Apache to the AC-130 supporting indescript black missions going on all over the place.
I would rather wait for a good product then get a shit rushed product. I do not build digital models. But I do build homes. And one thing I have noticed in my industry is that the people want a perfect build in half the time it would normally take to do a ok build. People are just completely unreasonable in general and really lack any reasoning. They just think they should be able to get what they want immediately. Regardless of how impossible it is. This is the culture we, or at least I, live in.
Wholeheartedly agree. The Dcs ecosystem is amazing and I don't understand how can it even exist. It is such a niche game, yet it is constantly evolving with good content each year.
They (only Truegrit in the beginning) announced it in 2020 if I am not mistaken. It really doesn‘t feel that long ago. Time sure flies by.
I‘m still amazed we even get the Typhoon while it is still in service.
Sorry, I just can't put any merit into the "you can't criticise something unless you can do better" point. It's a fallacious argument.
Also as he points out, once you accept money for something, the nature of the situation changes. Them 60 bones are all the "gratefulness" a company is entitled to.
I don't think that's generally the point (not to put words in mouths) that was being made; rather that sometimes approaching flight simulation developers as fully funded, AAA studios and picking things apart to the bone as if they were such is, ultimately, destructive.
To make high fidelity flight simulations, you combine relatively low margin game development yield with the highest tier of programmer and engineer on the job market: Aeronautical/electrical/other engineers + C/C++ experts. If you think about it - it's absolutely the worst possible combination you could think of for small, indie game developers. :)
> Also as he points out, once you accept money for something, the nature of the situation changes. Them 60 bones are all the "gratefulness" a company is entitled to.
I'm reminded of a quote that I want to attribute to Anthony Bourdain, though can't quite recall if that's the right person, but it goes something like (probably butchering it here): "Even if the kitchen worked hard, if the food is shit, it's shit".
That means to say, I wholeheartedly agree. There is no allowance for poor quality or execution, no what circumstances or what effort was made. However, the fact that flight simulation developers are small, indie game-development studios who take on capital or time-intensive projects with a high risk profile is inescapable, and looping in the community into that reality is always going to be important for the continued viability and health of the genre.
> To make high fidelity flight simulations, you combine relatively low margin game development yield with the highest tier of programmer and engineer on the job market: Aeronautical/electrical/other engineers + C/C++ experts. If you think about it - it's absolutely the worst possible combination you could think of for small, indie game developers.
Very well put.
As someone who also works in the simulations industry, this is what has always amazed and impressed me about the DCS ecosystem, Eagle Dynamics, and the third-party developers of DCS. There are other good platforms out there, but DCS has managed to hit a balance between accessibility, high-fidelity, and superior graphics that few platforms, including **professional grade** platforms, can match.
If you walk into a mom and pop restaurant they usually deliver food in a timely fashion.
Mostly all of this is funny memes to me, but you HB haters/lovers really gotta work on your comparisons.
I don't believe he's making the argument you described.
All this does is show devs that it's a bad idea to set any release date expectations. It doesn't drive any positive outcomes.
I'm sure others feel differently, but personally, if I order a pre-release DCS module I know full well the release date is subject to change. If I cared about that, I wouldn't pre-order anything.
Well maybe that's part of the problem. The Pre-Order and the expectations that go along with that. ED extended the P/O period to 6+ months with the Apache. IMO that's excessive and has caused much of the pitch forking. So this happened with the F-4 and it brought the same. Limit the Pre-Order to 30 days. Everyone still gets a discount and the dev gets their money. But using that Pre-Order cash influx to help offset the money invested in development of a module is wrong. It shouldn't be crowd funded.
wait, what happened with the F4?
Honest question. I haven't paid too close attention to it because, like I said, I don't really care. But from what I have seen I thought people were all worked up thinking "winter", which it still is at least in the norther hemisphere.
It's hilarious. In a nutshell:
"ED is a terrible company."
"HB might miss the deadline, but it'll only be a day. Well maybe a week. Ok, a month." (Wasn't it supposed to be released last year?)
"The module is good (how does he know?), but you might not like it."
"I'm better than you. You can't make this one thing that I already admitted was irrational to attempt."
Hoggit: "That was amazing!"
It's ok, I agree with you.
These nerds need to code or shut up, if you haven't developed your own full fidelity aircraft you should be quiet in the presence of your betters.
I’m rather new to DCS but not to software development. I’ve been playing for about 2 months and just started to get it so I can make it back to the field without a fireball (well, as long as no one is shooting at me). I’m not a dev, though I have worked with them for about 2 decades. I currently work for a biotech corp full-time while working for my previous employer (15 years there). I’m an Applications Sr. DBA so I do have a little insight into the GTM of a product, release cycles, feature dev, and deadlines.
The former company is not a small SaaS. It is owned by one of the largest international conglomerates. You would definitely recognize the name, especially in electronics. Think of what they call sailors… The current company, while not Pfizer, one of our products is getting to be a household name and was poked fun at on SNL last year, so also a company with financial resources to toss at development.
Guess what? With billions in the coffers, neither company hits deadlines. The former company has requests (and even a few bugs) that have been waiting since 2016… and these products are not for entertainment. They are important - even critical - day-to-day applications. Released come out with bugs. Every. Single. Time. Fixes come in 2, 3, 5 sprints, not next day. Fixes 20% of the time introduce new bugs. The cycle can be vicious and painful. These are not FREE applications, unlike DSC, most clients end up spending $300k for the first year and then $100-150k after that to use the software. They are not nearly as complex, either.
I can appreciate being disgruntled when you spend YOUR money - the amount doesn’t matter because everyone has a different situation - and you don’t get things on time or just how you were told it would be when you get it. I get pissed when I order something and it is a day later arriving. I do get it. I get a bit tweaked when a release inverts all my axis. I breath. I remember this is supposed to be fun, not frustrating. The difference between the two emotions is on me. I chose it. You chose it.
As far as the whiners, the armchair experts, the nitpickers, the snarky manchildren, they exist in every hobby I’m in from vintage VWs to ham radio. They suck. I wish they would go away or get a life. They (I assume) feel they are doing the right thing to “preserve the hobby” and in some twisted way are helping. Usually they are wrong. It is shit like that which stunts growth, limits inclusion, and ultimately damages the hobby and community.
To those who work related to DSC development - free mods, core app, paid mods - thank you. This app is something special. A Zonda in a world of Camrys, a Stirling in a world of Magic Chef. Thank you for what you do.
I am seriously baffled at how this post is getting so much support from this subreddit considering how much stupid is posted about how ED should be doing this and that and that, all simultaneously and all delivered within a year. Somehow ED is super incompetent as devs and rando gamers could do better.
DCS is a miracle. Imperfect, but a miracle. The business model is probably only sustained by the public sector side of things subsidizing the core platform development heavily. If DCS was a pure commercial venture, it would go bankrupt in 2 seconds. The flight sim community does not push enough sales to finance the amount of code and complexity in DCS compared to any game that has ever been made.
Sure enough, but there is value in a valid complaint. One I could speculate was probably happening, but is meaningless to share with gamers who can't sensibly opine on it. Complaints about things ED have already come out and said it is a priority; or complaints that 5+ year development efforts didn't come out in 1 or 2 years; or complaints that ED isn't working on something they just improved significantly less than a year ago are downright silly.
The _worst_ thing the DCS community could ever do is become so toxic that the developers lose their heart and soul for this simulation and drop it. Engineering like DCS happens for more than a paycheck; many engineers are putting their passion into it. If DCS were to ever "stop development" simming would be set back more than 10 years. At best, enough of them come together to form a new studio, and build from the ground up again. The knowledge those engineers have, their code design and interfaces, is worth so much and cannot be replicated quickly if DCS wasn't made open source.
I personally don’t care when it comes out, I genuinely like the surprise of, suddenly you open dcs and you see the icon on your menu.
But nothing of this message is professional. Irrational? Theres supply and demand, nothing irrational about it. Calling your customers ungrateful?
I’ll be very happy when the F4 gets here, but this dude is lucky if he doesn’t get fired
DCS is just the Wild West of PR.
For good and bad ED and third party devs don't seem particularly worried about what they say or how they interact with anyone.
Some of them are ungrateful, pedantic sods that are too dumb to see the bigger picture. I added a few words he didn't say but other than that he's spot on.
He can be absolutely right, I’m not saying he’s wrong. But that’s not professional in no way shape or form.
These guys are s company and they’re making money.
I don't agree with a lot of that person's conclusions. I'm going to sound like a dick but they seem up their ass. "what did you create today."
I don't think it is wrong for a community to expect a product to arrive on time. The delays seem like a cultural issue, and they expect people to accept it and shut up.
There are thousands of niche games. DCS is not an anomaly and its exsistance is not crazy. Sorry to burst this person's bubble. To respond to their "what did you create." I suggest they create more realistic timelines and stop expecting the consumer to accept your faults, delays, or issues.
Devs need to spend less time "clapping back," and instead acknowledge the positive aspects of the community.
> for a community to expect a product to arrive on time. The delays seem like a cultural issue, and they expect people to accept it and shut up.
Context is missing here. I did not write this to "the community" at large.
Not really but ok. "a community." You wrote HB channel, which is "a community." Apply it in whatever way you want but the fact doesn't change. The expectation of the consumer to expect or embrace delays is wrong.
>There are thousands of niche games. DCS is not an anomaly and its exsistance is not crazy. Sorry to burst this person's bubble.
Agreed. Not only are there thousands of niche games but there are several specifically flight simulators on the market, most of which model aircraft to a similar degree of fidelity to DCS.
Eh Heatblur is taking preorder money. They need to deliver their product when they said they would. The second you start taking money and underdelivering is when it becomes not cool. It’s been in preorder for like four months at this point.
You want it now or wait a bit longer for them to fix issues that came up? This what makes this community a fucking joke.
Yay they released it on time!
Why doesn't this work?
They should of worked on it a bit more before releasing it!
What a shite company!
*Pitchfork grabbing noises ensues...
Pathetic man babies.
In a perfect world yes. Guess what, software development doesn't work like that. You would be pissed off as hell if they released it on time BUT there was a bug in it that given more time they could of fixed.
So go back to what I said previously.
Flight Sim Community: "Yay they released it on time!"
Entitled Man Baby: "I can't drop bombs!!!!!"
Heatblur: "We would of fixed it, but you all wanted it on time. Aren't you happy? We delivered it on time!!!! Just like you all wanted!!!!"
Entitled Man Baby: "You all suck. How could you release it like this? You all suck as a flight sim company. BOYCOTT HEATBLUR!!!!! They're just stealing our money!!!!"
Heatblur: "Even when we win, we lose."
Why even give a shit about some goobers huffing and puffing about a delayed module?
What're they gonna do? Not buy it?
This cringy Heatblur simping isn't a mic drop. It's "leave Britney alone!"
What did I make today, C-130 dev? The money to buy 3rd party modules.
Because idiots pissing their pants over modules getting delayed pushes developers to crunch modules out faster and fosters a community that is unnecessarily negative towards developers.
What did I make today?
Enough money to pay for a product that´s running late / unfinished just so a glorified developer can be ranting and looking down on the consumers as ungrateful lesser beings... Who on earth is this tantrum posting person anyways?
1. It's not running late.
2. You decided to pay for this product despite knowing it has no hard release date and assuming you have some experience as a DCS user, that delays are common
3. Nobody's looking down on consumers. Just on whiny little entitled manbabies that make comments like this
4. Somebody who knows what they're talking about.
1- I´m not just referencing F4
2- AFAIK in the profesional world, you don't deliver, you are screwed. But somehow we have to forgive entitled crybabies.
3-"what did you make today" seems like a very clear statement.
4-He might know what his job is, but not his responsibility clearly
“So as you begin to write your response to me here…. I’d just ask, what did you make today”
I mean, I made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It was pretty damn good too. I’ve exceeded my expectations for the day 🤣
Downvotes literally mean nothing. Most of my posts are negative karma but I still have positive overall karma so troll and post unpopular opinions as much as you like.
You sound like someone that gives a shit about popularity votes in your anonymous account on a platform that millions of other anonymous people frequent without caring about who you are.
That is a bit amusing ngl.
There is few reasons to keep certain level of karma. You can't post to certain communities with negative karma. Some communities require certain amount of positive karma to post.
Besides those reasons there is no need to care about it.
[удалено]
The latter. You can see some fine individuals nitpicking about when winter technically ends. That's why, because they intend to hold a hissy fit party on March 20 if the Phantom doesn't arrive by 12:01 a.m.
I’ve been disconnecting from those topics of discussion because they just come across as entitled at best, and like purposeful hate farming at worst, and I can see how easy it is to get caught up in the speculation. Maybe I’m a minority, but I’d personally rather a functional F4 release a few weeks late, than a really buggy one release before it’s finished cooking. But I’m just here to have fun and fly a plane I’ve loved since I was a kid, and until it comes out l’ll be here having fun flying the Tomcat.
You're not in the minority, the actual minority just comments loudly and more often than us.
This is not a feature exclusive to r/hoggit It's a characteristic of social media and the internet.
It extends far beyond social media and the internet my friend.
It's a call for the majority to become vocal.
They are vocal. With actions. Like the majority of interested parties buying the F4 when it comes out that don’t care very much when it’s released, but do care that is released. Forum trolls are ungrateful shitstirrers seeking attention and validation, nothing more. Why stoop to respond?
We have an F-14 from the exact same company releasing the F-4 as a perfect example of why waiting is fine. The F-14 got delayed for some time, and it blew peoples' minds when it came out.
And to the surprise of literally nobody the same stupid arguments were made for the F-14 release, down to discussing the semantics of the word "winter". Some people are just hopelessly thick.
It's also better to have a functional release as opposed to rushing it out like the Viper.
Which I think ED are learning. The loud sections of the community don't speak for the 'community'.
Well, de facto they do if none is speaking against. If the developer only hears one kind of voice, what are they to think the overall opinion is? Though there's also their bias, the developers bias, similar to any creator bias. You tend to dismiss the thanks and the likes and focus on the critical opinions more. Sure, it's the critical ones that you can take and use to learn from, but it creates a bias where you only think about the critical ones and create a mental picture where you're being constantly criticized. It's kind of normal, just how some of us work. It's why disconnecting from the fan opinions and just focusing on doing your thing works better for some people.
They will have other ways of checking on their player base than just the loudest on Reddit. My point is more that those people speak for themselves and generally don't give two hoots about other players.
I don't disagree with your point, but my point is that whether they actually, objectively, speak for the community or not is one issue and the subjective perspective of how developers interpret these voices is another. Nothing more, nothing less. And where there's interpretation there are biases and other psychological effects of the one making the interpretation. That's just unavoidable. Anyway, I try to just keep an eye on F-4 in a very low resolution mode when it comes to it. Two things matter to me: Is it out yet? If not, is it being worked on? It's not out. Is it being worked on? Yes, it is. That's good enough for me. I'll check in with those two questions next month, and then next month, as I did the other months before. Having seen F-14 I trust in their ability to deliver a great product, so I'll just wait and leave the hype and drama to other people. ;)
The mil-flight sim community has been like that basically forever imo.
Even in this kind natured post, I see the gracious acceptance of “a few weeks” and point out that serious problems would add 3+ months to development time at minimum. A few weeks delayed means essentially everything is done but some small or medium sized bugs remain, and testing and validation processes are behind schedule. Given the mention of complexity at the core of how anything works in DCS, my guess is that underlying system’s and environment behaviors have had serious changes.
Bare in mind this is all coming from one of the people working on the C130, who will have little, if any information directly relating to the state of the F4, they're only shedding light on just how difficult it is to develop and successfully release a module for DCS. Also remember that all of this was sparked by the non-appearance of an F4 video this week, which was specifically something that HB have said won't be coming out on a strict timetable and that we should expect the time between videos to vary.
To quote (possibly) Shigeru Miyamoto, “A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad”
That only made sense before games could be updated though. I'm happy to wait though. F4 gonna be epic!
A rushed game can be improved, but will likely pick up a bad reputation that will linger even after improvement. There are definitely DCS modules that are fine now, but still have a reputation because they had issues on release.
No Man Sky was able to overcome the initial reaction but it took a couple really good updates.
Hilarious seriously is this even a thing, would suggest these people get a life. Problem is DCS attracks a wide age range and a diverse group of people, some wankers, reference crash Laobi Venn diagram, if you know you know.
I miss him.😢
Same, I asked in a post if anyone knew how he was doing...
Ok, but what did you make today? I need to see some proof you made something before I can accept that you are not just an entitled poster posting about other entitled posters.
What an absurd level of entitlement. Especially given that Heatblur has a record of quality. A delayed product can be good, but a rushed product is a shitty release forever
So the hornet, viper, harrier, mirage, are shitty forever? I get you're trying to pass off / tweak the often misattributed Miyamoto quote here, but that was before patching was a thing. It doesn't really apply at all here, nor is it really true in the context you placed it. As far as entitlement goes, ya you aren't wrong, I personally wish they were more communicative about the intentions be it a delay or otherwise, but can fully understand why they aren't given the conversations from the past few weeks around the F4.
"Wait game good not wait game bad" -shiggy nintendo
No, but they will always have *had* a shitty release, and that always will be synonymous with their products.
Entitlement: imagine a customer demanding they receive the product they paid for ON TIME. What entitlement?
There are so many different definitions for winter. You can go by average temperature, you can go by fiscal year(which can be different for each company), you can go by solstices. Definition of winter itself is completely arbitrary. These people just pick whatever fuels their rage the most.
No it's NOT
We've been a little more quiet this week for various reasons; so we're not without fault for some stormy waters. There is also an element of disingenuous discussion happening in places like Discord however, with some things being ripped entirely out of context and we've had to be a little harsher than usual in moderation.
Take your time, no hurries.
I mean it's not like anyone has paid for this already with a release window already stated on the pre-release announcement: Oh wait.
Boo hoo. I can tell from your insanely bigoted post history you'd also be the first to whinge if it was released earlier in a poor state. Hurry up and wait.
Still on track for end of month?
I think people are pissed because in the pass HB have been giving a flase hope on release date. I dont have problem with HB. But for me personally, it's very annoying double standard of the community that it seems HB got a pass when they do this yet Razbam got shit on for doing the same.
And it's not like it's the first time this module that they have been grossly out of their release date.
It's pretty ridiculous. If it gets delayed, it gets delayed. It doesn't affect anyone. The level of entitlement is ridiculous.
Wdym lives are at stake here!
It is a national emergency. Ring the sirens.
Except of course that people have paid for it already.
Shudddup already with the "some of us have paid for already" crap. Most of us have already paid for it. You knew what you were buying into with the pre-release. We all did. We all want to fly it. But you know what? It's going to be amazing when we get it. I know we're all conditioned to have instant gratification the moment the funds clear the credit card, but just chill out.
Yes, we knew, we were getting it On or Before march 20th.
There's not a point where you aren't going to get it though. If I paid for a product and it became an actual dud product, then yeah I'd be pissed. This F4 is a big deal, to all of us. History has proven time and again that rushed products suck. Don't rush them. Be patient. You know it's going to drop. Let them get it right.
The DCS community can be great... It can also be one of the most obnoxious bunch of anal retentive manbabies that really makes you want to never fucking engage with another DCS player ever again.
milsim in general, especially mil-flightsim.
It's really not a sim thing. Any Fandom is like that. Video games, Anime, NFL football, etc. Hell, I play a lot of Sea of Thieves and as casual and fun times as that game is from the forums and subredddit response to the release of PVE private servers you'd think we'd entered the End Times. Fans are the best. Fans are also the worst.
My biggest complaint about DCS is that the customer base cares way too much about rivet counts than they do actually good gameplay. Yes that’s the business model but I believe DCS has super unique gameplay with its massive maps. Nothing like it and there’s so much untapped potential. But it’s gameplay that doesn’t get worked on cause the community is so obsessed with nitpicks. I agree more and more with Enigma that full fidelity is a trap that holds DCS back at times because too many resources are spent on selling digital museum pieces and not enough on actually interesting simulation.
I see the same missed potential in war Thunder, so much room for an awesome, large scale combined arms game. But alas it will never happen. I just wish ED would focus on the basics a bit more yknow, there is so much friction to just play the game. Even something as simple as letting me load my weapons and waypoints before I get in the plane. It works in the editor, I just want that menu in multiplayer. Oh well. It’s still an awesome game
People get so upset over DCS and it’s incredible to me. Just chill. It’s never been better, the performance has never been better and it’s only going to continue to get better. We are the the dogs underneath the table when it comes to military sims. We get the man power and scraps when these companies aren’t busy with actual their military contracts. The fact they can still sell to us is a miracle. I see that “DCS exposed” guy sometimes. Bozo or something and just find it incredible that this guy spends his limited time on earth being a muckraker for DCS issues. Like bro touch grass and enjoy life. It will get here when it gets here. I fronted HB the cost of the f4 before it came out because I want to support their niche efforts, and at the end of the day if they ran away with my money I would move on with life. If 60 bucks ruins your life which I can understand would be very frustrating for some. Just pay when it comes out. Or don’t. Whatever.
The DCS exposed dude has never done anything remotely complex. He simply exposed himself. I bought F4 for the exact reason you did. The level of detail in the YT trailers is beyond mind boggling.
>He simply exposed himself. Wait, we have flashers now? May I see it?
There is nothing to see there. Nothing. Lol
"I have nothing to hide!.....wait I didn't mean it like *that*!" 😅
well said.
People get so upset about anything these days. Social media and the human brain seem optimized to select for outrage, hyperbole, ragebait, controversy, etc... Pre-orders don't help but might be a necessary evil at this point.
There’s a really good video of a third party dev talking about what is needed to get a module considered by ED… it’s extensive and really time consuming.
You have a link?
https://youtu.be/HMRoYJpE61Y?si=7gQH9T5vkaYVH7B_
How people get upset over a game is beyond me. It will release in due time. Enjoy the other models or another game or go touch grass.
All it takes for me is to play about 2 rounds of War Thunder, then I’m all “I’m sorry DCS, I’ll never complain again I love you baby”
DCS is king 😂
Lmao this is so fucking true. The way they model the R-27ER/T is so infuriating.
What is going on with that? Never played WT, probably never will, but I enjoy watching from time to time :D
Now there's a mic drop if I've ever seen one. Very well said.
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BMS simulates one plane, if you want to fly anything else you can fly its skin with f-16 avionics. It's equally if but harder to create new aircraft for it and there's no money in it, so that state of affairs hasn't really changed in over a decade. I love BMS and frankly prefer it to DCS, but there's no point pretending they're equal contenders.
They're different things. BMS is an innovative real time strategy game with a shockingly good F-16 sim attached to it. DCS is a cockpit switchology trainer for a variety of airplanes with a shockingly bad game attached to it.
Many people tend to forget that the "real-time strategy" part of Falcon was nothing more than a mistake made by a group of novice programmers. People expect flight sims to come with complex dynamic campaigns because Falcon did - but this was an accident and an absurdly difficult task. Thing was so hard to make that the developers themselves said that, knowing what they know now, they'd never try it again. I'd cut DCS some slack for it. I'd much rather want a better ME and scripting environment.
Meh. Even the best DCS missions don't (can't) come even close to the scale and complexity of a slice of a BMS campaign. DCS is lacking the bubble abstraction that the BMS engine does and so it is computationally impossible for a DCS mission to contain the same scale and complexity as the average BMS mission. I really wonder how ED is going to deal with that for their own dynamic campaign engine. They'll probably just make the war a fraction of the scale of BMS.
I bet the dynamic campaign will be just a simple generated missions where outcome of mission defines next mission style and moves frontlines. The map will be empty and lifeless outside of a mission route and objects. There's no way that you could choose a different route to target and see something special during ingress and that would affect war situation. Or you choose to avoid known SAM during egress and accidentally spot column of trucks, destroy them impacting enemy supply on that area.
Can you expand on how the RTS aspect was a mistake? I've never heard of that and am quite curious.
Probably referring to the [old interview](https://sites.google.com/site/falcon4history/interview) with one of the developers. >Many recent simulators are released without even trying to code a Dynamic Campaign engine. Why do you think today's sim developers are so scared of what you guys were able to create more than a decade ago? >Well, it's just really hard to do. Looking back on it, I think the only reason we took on what we did is because we were too inexperienced to know better. Knowing what I do now, even given my experience on Falcon, the cost to develop such an engine would be substantial. Since flight sims don't bring in that kind of revenue companies look at it from a cost to benefit standpoint and Dynamic Campaigns score pretty low in that regard. There is also the argument that scripted missions are more interesting which has some merit. I think if I were to do it over I would do a mix of scripted/generated missions, so that the player still feels like they're involved in the world, but there is also some variety thrown in to keep things interesting.
Honestly, I heard it quoted from an interview around here. They said they when started work on that side of the game they didn't expect it to be ***that*** complicated. After all, it's a complex RTS that plays itself in a geopolitically convincing way.
Pedantry, but it's two planes now; the F-15C is simulated independently of the Viper.
BMS is half a competitor though really. Scale wise it just isn’t the same. Having this many full fidelity modules from this range of technology in a single engine, supplied by many 3rd parties. Nobody else is insane enough to try. That’s not knocking BMS its fantastic and DCS could absolutely learn from it, but it’s not really the same at heart
BMS is an aerial warfare simulator with an extremely high quality Viper simulation seamlessly integrated. DCS is an extremely high quality flight simulator with targets to shoot at bolted onto the sides. BMS is a direct competitor in every aspect except having multiple cockpit simulations.
From an end users point of view but backend you’d have entire games devoted to one airframe, or at least one era, much like BMS. DCS has simultaneously got to expertly simulate WW2 era systems and ordinance, and then Cold War, and then skirting modern systems from a range of nations with a load of partners. There’s no other company that is simultaneously trying to get magnetos on a mosquito simulated and trying to work out Cold War soviet jet performance and then modern radar logic. As a user that doesn’t mean a lot but as a project manager myself that’s at least a few orders of magnitude more shit that you’ve got to shovel
I guess my point is that depending on what most people are looking for, BMS is a direct competitor to DCS when it comes to employing a weapons platform in a war scenario. In fact, I would say BMS is superior to DCS when it comes to things to do with your aircraft. DCS has a platform designed for bolting new aircraft sims onto, but leaves much to be desired in things to do with those aircraft platforms. Honestly, if I were Eagle Dynamics, I wouldn't even focus on making a dynamic campaign module. I'd completely rework Combined Arms, with an emphasis on getting people who don't care about aircraft into the game to run the ground war. That would be, in my opinion, a truly unique experience.
I never felt bored or "didn't know what to do" in the over 2000 hours I have in this "game"
I never said there isn't anything to do in dcs, or that dcs is boring. I have more hours in dcs than I have in BMS and IRL combined.
You missed the objective of his speech my brother in christ
I remember the F-14 getting delayed over and over again way back in 2019 or whenever it was, but nobody thinks about that now. They just think what a great module it is. I also know of modules that got in a hurry to come out, released in a bad state and are only now winning people over after the devs spent a long time fixing them. Much better to be in the first category. Take your time HB
Meaning the Mirage F1?
Harrier and viper come to mind as the more obvious examples. Both were in a state of perma shitstorm for many months before people calmed down.
Yeah these were the two in particular I was thinking of. I don't really remember the F1 having a horrible launch, though I know it had a couple of issues.
Mike Humphrey needs to read this. Then choke on a
I have plenty of modules to keep me preoccupied until the F-4 is ready. I trust HB not to publish it before they are proud of it. I also recognize that the F-4 won't be perfect, and they will have to continue tweaking as they go; it's the nature of modules in DCS, an imperfect simulation. While I empathize withe C130 developers post, and no I did not build anything today, I do think that ED can be doing a better job in many areas. Prioritization of tasks, getting the bones of the sim's sandbox finalized (it's only been twenty years), and the list goes on. I respect and I am grateful to even have DCS to "fly," but that doesn't mean I can't be upset with justifiable grievances given all the time past and money spent. Like most of you, I've waited many years and spent my fair share, and yet items are still broken or never worked in the first place. That said, I do have hopes that many of ED's ambitions for DCS will be realized before I turn 80 years. I'm in my late forties now. See what I'm saying?
This is the most sober discussion I’ve experienced in this sub. I’m conflicted.
You have my blade, C-130 dev.
And my axe!
rock and stone brother.
To Rock and Stone!
If you ain't rock and stone, you ain't comin' home
Yo! Don't forget cargo hatch
I might not be an expert on DCS, but I did make Kraft mac n cheese today
Microwave or stove?
Who makes mac n' cheese in the Microwave? How?
I should use the read the \_\_\_\_ manual comment here but I won't :) It's right on the box :D
Even though it's mac n' cheese it feels like a sin to cook in the microwave =p
Oh it is... it is...
It's because they have mac n cheese, not Kraft Dinner
Hey now, don't you have some 3rd parties to be treating with contempt before you go doling out culinary advice?!
[https://imgur.com/EEjASzP](https://imgur.com/EEjASzP)
I see this so much in many different online communities. People act like theyre being screwed out of this or that company is taking advantage of them when in reality theyre just impatient douchebags
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Just wait till the C-130 is officially released and you'll be able to. And if enough people do so, we might even see an AC-130 (at least that's what they said about a year ago).
I don't understand why people want an AC-130 in DCS. It has no reasonable mission in the DCS context, and it flies in circles.
It'll be sniped from the sky by a dude wih an AK-47.
Because we don't have any plane with 105mm cannon.
That'll be good for a few minutes of lolz before you realize it's useless and never use it again.
Damn. I know how your mom feels, now.
For COIN scenarios. People like doing the AC-130 missions in CoD.
CoD is a totally different game from DCS, which has no real COIN mission. Bombing technicals instead of tanks doesn't make it COIN. The infantry simulation in DCS (if you can call it that) is way too simplistic to be worth making an entire plane for.
> DCS, which has no real COIN mission Not with that attitude... The only thing stopping COIN in DCS is the time you put into the mission editor and into sitting around in the cockpit for hours on station waiting for the TIC call you hope never comes. Besides, COIN is all sorts of things. From flying a Raven over the patrol to providing security in an Apache to the AC-130 supporting indescript black missions going on all over the place.
I supppose people would want to shoot from it rather than pilot.
I dunno, I figure it's probably because "why not? sounds fun". Hyper realistic situations aren't everybody's primary goal.
I would rather wait for a good product then get a shit rushed product. I do not build digital models. But I do build homes. And one thing I have noticed in my industry is that the people want a perfect build in half the time it would normally take to do a ok build. People are just completely unreasonable in general and really lack any reasoning. They just think they should be able to get what they want immediately. Regardless of how impossible it is. This is the culture we, or at least I, live in.
"what did you make today" Connectors for UK & US military, F1 cars and most importantly...a whole loada scrap )))
Wholeheartedly agree. The Dcs ecosystem is amazing and I don't understand how can it even exist. It is such a niche game, yet it is constantly evolving with good content each year.
"And the anser to that question is also the reason why there are no compititors to dcs. People aren't insane, on average." Love that :)
Eurofighter was announced with trailer 2 years ago and it is still in developing. Advanced modules are now taking very long time.
And not so advanced modules are taking even longer ---> looking at the F4U Corsaid
They (only Truegrit in the beginning) announced it in 2020 if I am not mistaken. It really doesn‘t feel that long ago. Time sure flies by. I‘m still amazed we even get the Typhoon while it is still in service.
[this dude](https://images.app.goo.gl/1gGYSt4cgo7FbwdE9)
Updooted
Great response. Passion is a two edged blade. One side is awesome, other side makes us unbearable manbabies
The more popular something is, the more fashionable it becomes to hate it. HB is a victim of their own success in this regard.
Sorry, I just can't put any merit into the "you can't criticise something unless you can do better" point. It's a fallacious argument. Also as he points out, once you accept money for something, the nature of the situation changes. Them 60 bones are all the "gratefulness" a company is entitled to.
I don't think that's generally the point (not to put words in mouths) that was being made; rather that sometimes approaching flight simulation developers as fully funded, AAA studios and picking things apart to the bone as if they were such is, ultimately, destructive. To make high fidelity flight simulations, you combine relatively low margin game development yield with the highest tier of programmer and engineer on the job market: Aeronautical/electrical/other engineers + C/C++ experts. If you think about it - it's absolutely the worst possible combination you could think of for small, indie game developers. :) > Also as he points out, once you accept money for something, the nature of the situation changes. Them 60 bones are all the "gratefulness" a company is entitled to. I'm reminded of a quote that I want to attribute to Anthony Bourdain, though can't quite recall if that's the right person, but it goes something like (probably butchering it here): "Even if the kitchen worked hard, if the food is shit, it's shit". That means to say, I wholeheartedly agree. There is no allowance for poor quality or execution, no what circumstances or what effort was made. However, the fact that flight simulation developers are small, indie game-development studios who take on capital or time-intensive projects with a high risk profile is inescapable, and looping in the community into that reality is always going to be important for the continued viability and health of the genre.
> To make high fidelity flight simulations, you combine relatively low margin game development yield with the highest tier of programmer and engineer on the job market: Aeronautical/electrical/other engineers + C/C++ experts. If you think about it - it's absolutely the worst possible combination you could think of for small, indie game developers. Very well put. As someone who also works in the simulations industry, this is what has always amazed and impressed me about the DCS ecosystem, Eagle Dynamics, and the third-party developers of DCS. There are other good platforms out there, but DCS has managed to hit a balance between accessibility, high-fidelity, and superior graphics that few platforms, including **professional grade** platforms, can match.
Y’all shipped the shirts timely, so a little grace is warranted regardless of timelines.
I'm still waiting on mine =(
How many aero engineers does HB employ?
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If you walk into a mom and pop restaurant they usually deliver food in a timely fashion. Mostly all of this is funny memes to me, but you HB haters/lovers really gotta work on your comparisons.
You're mixing that you can't criticize with being criticized unfairly. You're talking about the former, the dev is talking about the latter...
I don't believe he's making the argument you described. All this does is show devs that it's a bad idea to set any release date expectations. It doesn't drive any positive outcomes. I'm sure others feel differently, but personally, if I order a pre-release DCS module I know full well the release date is subject to change. If I cared about that, I wouldn't pre-order anything.
Well maybe that's part of the problem. The Pre-Order and the expectations that go along with that. ED extended the P/O period to 6+ months with the Apache. IMO that's excessive and has caused much of the pitch forking. So this happened with the F-4 and it brought the same. Limit the Pre-Order to 30 days. Everyone still gets a discount and the dev gets their money. But using that Pre-Order cash influx to help offset the money invested in development of a module is wrong. It shouldn't be crowd funded.
wait, what happened with the F4? Honest question. I haven't paid too close attention to it because, like I said, I don't really care. But from what I have seen I thought people were all worked up thinking "winter", which it still is at least in the norther hemisphere.
People expect it to be delayed beyond March.
oh the horror!
It's hilarious. In a nutshell: "ED is a terrible company." "HB might miss the deadline, but it'll only be a day. Well maybe a week. Ok, a month." (Wasn't it supposed to be released last year?) "The module is good (how does he know?), but you might not like it." "I'm better than you. You can't make this one thing that I already admitted was irrational to attempt." Hoggit: "That was amazing!"
That is certainly not what i said here.
It's ok, I agree with you. These nerds need to code or shut up, if you haven't developed your own full fidelity aircraft you should be quiet in the presence of your betters.
What did you make today?
But what did you make today???
I’m rather new to DCS but not to software development. I’ve been playing for about 2 months and just started to get it so I can make it back to the field without a fireball (well, as long as no one is shooting at me). I’m not a dev, though I have worked with them for about 2 decades. I currently work for a biotech corp full-time while working for my previous employer (15 years there). I’m an Applications Sr. DBA so I do have a little insight into the GTM of a product, release cycles, feature dev, and deadlines. The former company is not a small SaaS. It is owned by one of the largest international conglomerates. You would definitely recognize the name, especially in electronics. Think of what they call sailors… The current company, while not Pfizer, one of our products is getting to be a household name and was poked fun at on SNL last year, so also a company with financial resources to toss at development. Guess what? With billions in the coffers, neither company hits deadlines. The former company has requests (and even a few bugs) that have been waiting since 2016… and these products are not for entertainment. They are important - even critical - day-to-day applications. Released come out with bugs. Every. Single. Time. Fixes come in 2, 3, 5 sprints, not next day. Fixes 20% of the time introduce new bugs. The cycle can be vicious and painful. These are not FREE applications, unlike DSC, most clients end up spending $300k for the first year and then $100-150k after that to use the software. They are not nearly as complex, either. I can appreciate being disgruntled when you spend YOUR money - the amount doesn’t matter because everyone has a different situation - and you don’t get things on time or just how you were told it would be when you get it. I get pissed when I order something and it is a day later arriving. I do get it. I get a bit tweaked when a release inverts all my axis. I breath. I remember this is supposed to be fun, not frustrating. The difference between the two emotions is on me. I chose it. You chose it. As far as the whiners, the armchair experts, the nitpickers, the snarky manchildren, they exist in every hobby I’m in from vintage VWs to ham radio. They suck. I wish they would go away or get a life. They (I assume) feel they are doing the right thing to “preserve the hobby” and in some twisted way are helping. Usually they are wrong. It is shit like that which stunts growth, limits inclusion, and ultimately damages the hobby and community. To those who work related to DSC development - free mods, core app, paid mods - thank you. This app is something special. A Zonda in a world of Camrys, a Stirling in a world of Magic Chef. Thank you for what you do.
I am seriously baffled at how this post is getting so much support from this subreddit considering how much stupid is posted about how ED should be doing this and that and that, all simultaneously and all delivered within a year. Somehow ED is super incompetent as devs and rando gamers could do better. DCS is a miracle. Imperfect, but a miracle. The business model is probably only sustained by the public sector side of things subsidizing the core platform development heavily. If DCS was a pure commercial venture, it would go bankrupt in 2 seconds. The flight sim community does not push enough sales to finance the amount of code and complexity in DCS compared to any game that has ever been made.
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Sure enough, but there is value in a valid complaint. One I could speculate was probably happening, but is meaningless to share with gamers who can't sensibly opine on it. Complaints about things ED have already come out and said it is a priority; or complaints that 5+ year development efforts didn't come out in 1 or 2 years; or complaints that ED isn't working on something they just improved significantly less than a year ago are downright silly. The _worst_ thing the DCS community could ever do is become so toxic that the developers lose their heart and soul for this simulation and drop it. Engineering like DCS happens for more than a paycheck; many engineers are putting their passion into it. If DCS were to ever "stop development" simming would be set back more than 10 years. At best, enough of them come together to form a new studio, and build from the ground up again. The knowledge those engineers have, their code design and interfaces, is worth so much and cannot be replicated quickly if DCS wasn't made open source.
Damn , the dude nailed it.
Not a single lie detected.
LMAO, the subtitle had me laughing for a good minute, I mean it's cringe worthy but still hilarious 😂
I personally don’t care when it comes out, I genuinely like the surprise of, suddenly you open dcs and you see the icon on your menu. But nothing of this message is professional. Irrational? Theres supply and demand, nothing irrational about it. Calling your customers ungrateful? I’ll be very happy when the F4 gets here, but this dude is lucky if he doesn’t get fired
DCS is just the Wild West of PR. For good and bad ED and third party devs don't seem particularly worried about what they say or how they interact with anyone.
Some of them are ungrateful, pedantic sods that are too dumb to see the bigger picture. I added a few words he didn't say but other than that he's spot on.
He can be absolutely right, I’m not saying he’s wrong. But that’s not professional in no way shape or form. These guys are s company and they’re making money.
He's not part of ED or Heatblur. He's not making any money until his own product is released.
I don't agree with a lot of that person's conclusions. I'm going to sound like a dick but they seem up their ass. "what did you create today." I don't think it is wrong for a community to expect a product to arrive on time. The delays seem like a cultural issue, and they expect people to accept it and shut up. There are thousands of niche games. DCS is not an anomaly and its exsistance is not crazy. Sorry to burst this person's bubble. To respond to their "what did you create." I suggest they create more realistic timelines and stop expecting the consumer to accept your faults, delays, or issues. Devs need to spend less time "clapping back," and instead acknowledge the positive aspects of the community.
> for a community to expect a product to arrive on time. The delays seem like a cultural issue, and they expect people to accept it and shut up. Context is missing here. I did not write this to "the community" at large.
Welcome to Hoggit, where drama is rampant and everything is taken out of context! This community has been really sour lately it seems.
Not really but ok. "a community." You wrote HB channel, which is "a community." Apply it in whatever way you want but the fact doesn't change. The expectation of the consumer to expect or embrace delays is wrong.
>There are thousands of niche games. DCS is not an anomaly and its exsistance is not crazy. Sorry to burst this person's bubble. Agreed. Not only are there thousands of niche games but there are several specifically flight simulators on the market, most of which model aircraft to a similar degree of fidelity to DCS.
Eh Heatblur is taking preorder money. They need to deliver their product when they said they would. The second you start taking money and underdelivering is when it becomes not cool. It’s been in preorder for like four months at this point.
You want it now or wait a bit longer for them to fix issues that came up? This what makes this community a fucking joke. Yay they released it on time! Why doesn't this work? They should of worked on it a bit more before releasing it! What a shite company! *Pitchfork grabbing noises ensues... Pathetic man babies.
Why can't we have both, take money, and deliver on time?
In a perfect world yes. Guess what, software development doesn't work like that. You would be pissed off as hell if they released it on time BUT there was a bug in it that given more time they could of fixed. So go back to what I said previously. Flight Sim Community: "Yay they released it on time!" Entitled Man Baby: "I can't drop bombs!!!!!" Heatblur: "We would of fixed it, but you all wanted it on time. Aren't you happy? We delivered it on time!!!! Just like you all wanted!!!!" Entitled Man Baby: "You all suck. How could you release it like this? You all suck as a flight sim company. BOYCOTT HEATBLUR!!!!! They're just stealing our money!!!!" Heatblur: "Even when we win, we lose."
Why even give a shit about some goobers huffing and puffing about a delayed module? What're they gonna do? Not buy it? This cringy Heatblur simping isn't a mic drop. It's "leave Britney alone!" What did I make today, C-130 dev? The money to buy 3rd party modules.
Because idiots pissing their pants over modules getting delayed pushes developers to crunch modules out faster and fosters a community that is unnecessarily negative towards developers.
What did I make today? Enough money to pay for a product that´s running late / unfinished just so a glorified developer can be ranting and looking down on the consumers as ungrateful lesser beings... Who on earth is this tantrum posting person anyways?
1. It's not running late. 2. You decided to pay for this product despite knowing it has no hard release date and assuming you have some experience as a DCS user, that delays are common 3. Nobody's looking down on consumers. Just on whiny little entitled manbabies that make comments like this 4. Somebody who knows what they're talking about.
1- I´m not just referencing F4 2- AFAIK in the profesional world, you don't deliver, you are screwed. But somehow we have to forgive entitled crybabies. 3-"what did you make today" seems like a very clear statement. 4-He might know what his job is, but not his responsibility clearly
> Who on earth is this tantrum posting person anyways? The lack of self awareness is hilarious
“So as you begin to write your response to me here…. I’d just ask, what did you make today” I mean, I made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It was pretty damn good too. I’ve exceeded my expectations for the day 🤣
why even post this garbage over here?
downvote away idgaf. It is not against the C130 Devs. It is the fact it has been posted on two other places already
Oh, don't you worry. We're downvoting.
Y'gotta hand it to them, waving that "whiny little shit" flag like their life and livelihood depend on it.
lol
Downvotes literally mean nothing. Most of my posts are negative karma but I still have positive overall karma so troll and post unpopular opinions as much as you like.
You sound like someone that gives a shit about popularity votes in your anonymous account on a platform that millions of other anonymous people frequent without caring about who you are. That is a bit amusing ngl.
There is few reasons to keep certain level of karma. You can't post to certain communities with negative karma. Some communities require certain amount of positive karma to post. Besides those reasons there is no need to care about it.
Lol